NEW YORK | One World Trade Center | 1,776' Pinnacle / 1,373' Roof | 108 FLOORS

[Aleks]

Guys, please keep the conversation on the construction of this tower.

A few off-topic posts are ok, but let's remember that this is a thread for the construction of 1WTC. If it's too much to ask for then we'll start deleting every post that doesn't have anything to do with construction (and design, but again, limit yourselves).

If you have opinions about the designs there are proper threads for discussion (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=166333).

If you would like to discuss the former WTC, again, please do so in the proper threads (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=184976).

Let's try to keep things tidy around here.

PS: If you feel like someone is derailing the thread or creating a hostile environment don't hesitate to report the post(s) and a mod will try to sort things out and take disciplinary action if necessary.

[sw5710]

Not quite. The old 1WTC was not 1,368 to the parapet, but to the top of the hat truss in the middle of the roof (1,368'2 to be exact). The parapet on the old tower was 1,362'10" and both numbers were exactly 6' lower for the other tower (1362'2" & 1356'10) As for the rest of this nonsense, the new complex is bigger and denser than what came before. There's vastly more underground space, and more buildings that combine to choke a very large amount of sunlight. If you dislike it architecturally, whatever, but if you're calling it smaller, it's simply not true.

-Signed the only person on the f'ing planet that can walk through both.
http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/2199/tt15.jpg

That answers it. Thanks for this comparison.

[pj3000]

That first half of your comment is why I added the tag line. You don't understand the scale. You just don't, because of the simple fact you can't. The renders don't convey the scale of the new buildings. You have to sit yourself down at ground level and look around. Go inside. Experience it as you would the real thing. The old complex had the low rise buildings to contrast with. It allows you to better grasp the monumentality of the larger buildings, because you have something "normal" to compare them to.

The new WTC doesn't have that. You start with a giant building, and they get larger from there. Just showing an abstract render, especially one without benches, cars, doors and other human scale objects (which I may or may not ever get around to adding) doesn't convey mass or scale of the superhuman. Sure, they still show color and proportion, and to an extent how things will integrate into their surroundings, but that's it.

So you totally missed the point, my friend. That line wasn't a boast. It was the exact opposite, the admission that the works I made and posted here are utterly inadequate. You can't really convey scale with a photo either, as anyone who has taken photos of this building will attest to: it's bigger in real life. It's bigger virtually too, you just can't take a snapshot (which is all a render is) and still fill in all of the blanks.

So no offense taken, and I hope none was given. It really was a misunderstanding.

It was a misunderstanding. I misinterpreted your intent in your response to sw5710's post. Plus, I was in a crappy mood earlier. Sorry for jumping to conclusions without really understanding the context. We do all appreciate the renders... they are the best thing to happen to this thread, and one of the highlights of the entire forum.

[Zapatan]

That answers it. Thanks for this comparison.

The tower definitely looks better when viewed from that angle, I despise the tapering, it takes so much away from the building. (I still like the building though)

[Plokoon11]

Man they need to raise some more steel, its been almost 3 weeks now.

[aquablue]

The tower definitely looks better when viewed from that angle, I despise the tapering, it takes so much away from the building. (I still like the building though)

IMO, that's the worst angle that you can view this tower. The tapering gives this tower it's elegance. If you rotate the building, the view of the 4 angled sides at once (appears like a cut diamond), combined with the reflection from direct light, is the best angle.

[Tall guy 31]

I know it's off topic....I apologize. But today was the 38th anniversary of the ceremonial opening of the old WTC!!!

[STR]

IMO, that's the worst angle that you can view this tower. The tapering gives this tower it's elegance. If you rotate the building, the view of the 4 angled sides at once (appears like a cut diamond), combined with the reflection from direct light, is the best angle.

Then you should be happy to learn that, from the ground, Tower 1 tapers dramatically from all angles.

[Zapatan]

Then you should be happy to learn that, from the ground, Tower 1 tapers dramatically from all angles.


Well, minus the four corners, he's right to say the sillohuette of the tower will look like the old tower 1 when viewed from the north south east or west.

I think the most interesting way to view this tower though is not from the completely tapered or completely flat sides but rather from the angles in between where the tower only slightly tapers.

[STR]

Again, not when viewed from anywhere within 2-3 blocks of the thing, as the fact that the corners are receding from you, it reinforces the perspective effect, making the building visually taper.

[aquablue]

Can you imagine how great it would have been to have a 420m London Shard as the FT?

[slayerhk47]

I know it's off topic....I apologize. But today was the 38th anniversary of the ceremonial opening of the old WTC!!!

This thread is about the grand World Trade Center building number one. This is replacing the old WTC which were a group of magnificent buildings. I would find it off topic if it WAS NOT mentioned that the old WTC was opened on this date 38 years ago.


Thank you for that tidbit of information. :cool:

[Zensteeldude]

First it was snow, now it's rain !

What do we need to do, sacrifice a chicken to Mother Natuere ?!?

I hope they can make up the weather delays this summer.

[jigglysquishy]

According to posters on SSC, 1 WTC is now taller than 7 WTC.

[Plokoon11]

The way this pattern is setting up, WTC will finally be able to surpass WTC7 maybe in July....

[Zensteeldude]

According to posters on SSC, 1 WTC is now taller than 7 WTC.

FCU jumped the gun. The next lift will bring it above T7.

[Obey]

According to posters on SSC, 1 WTC is now taller than 7 WTC.

Not quite yet. :D

[Zapatan]

Again, not when viewed from anywhere within 2-3 blocks of the thing, as the fact that the corners are receding from you, it reinforces the perspective effect, making the building visually taper.

Yes but what I was trying to say is that the tapering, depending on the angle is either very apparent, not apparent at all or somewhat apparent. For example...

Mild tapering
http://gothamist.com/attachments/jen/2009_03_wtcfuture.jpg

But still bold up top
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/01/29/nyregion/churchst.531.jpg

My personal favorite angle
http://www.theodoresworld.net/pics/0409/madeinchinatradecenterImage1.jpg

No apparent tapering (especially in silohuette) (I know these are old)
http://www.glasssteelandstone.com/Images/US/NY/NYC/WTC/FreedomTower3-001.jpg

http://www.richardrogers.co.uk/Asp/uploadedFiles/image/5270_WTC_tower3/concept/5270_0021_1_w.jpg

Full taper
http://www.aiany.org/eOCULUS/2006/images/0711/k_Awards_FreedomTower_0112.jpg

http://imgs.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2005/07/07/mn_attacks_freedom_3.jpg


Sorry to post so many pictures but my (obvious) point is the tower looks very different depending on the angles in terms of tapering.

The top will still be pretty bold, most people don't realize that the top floor plates of this building are actually well larger than those of sears above it's 89th floor.

Floors 90-108 of sears tower measure 150' by 75'

The very top of 1WTC measures 200' by 140'. Although slightly shorter than sears tower, it will still have a hell of an impact as a building.

[STR]

Sorry to post so many pictures but my (obvious) point is the tower looks very different depending on the angles in terms of tapering.

Pictures are fine. It's nice to see something different from the chain of photos showing the same new pane of glass from 5 different angles. However, I hope you don't really think the geometry of this building has to be explained to me. :haha:

[The Grand Architect]

The way this pattern is setting up, WTC will finally be able to surpass WTC7 maybe in July....

I doubt it. Probably mid April or late April. If the steel aren't raised past April, then they got a problem.

[The Chemist]

It should have been around Shanghai IFC height.

Shanghai IFC is only around 260m. You're thinking of the Shanghai WFC, which is nearly 500m. ;)

[CGII]

I doubt it. Probably mid April or late April. If the steel aren't raised past April, then they got a problem.

I've been watching construction on this from my apartment, 1WTC is still shorter than 7WTC, but will be taller when the next level of steel is installed.

[MolsonExport]

even under construction, the building looks far better in the pictures than in any rendering.

[Kevin Scott Koepke]

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5307/5594734337_4b58f0c37d.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinskoepke/5594734337/)
manhattan dawn. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinskoepke/5594734337/) by ksk photography (http://www.flickr.com/people/kevinskoepke/), on Flickr

[hunser]

^^ beautiful colors. maybe you should post the 1024 x 685 version instead of the 640 x 428 one because believe me, it looks much better. ;)

[NYYskyline]

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5307/5594734337_4b58f0c37d.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinskoepke/5594734337/)
manhattan dawn. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinskoepke/5594734337/) by ksk photography (http://www.flickr.com/people/kevinskoepke/), on Flickr

is that taken from Jeresy?

[Fishman92]

is that taken from Jeresy?

Has to have been, or a boat in the harbour..

[jthornton17]

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5307/5594734337_4b58f0c37d.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinskoepke/5594734337/)
manhattan dawn. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinskoepke/5594734337/) by ksk photography (http://www.flickr.com/people/kevinskoepke/), on Flickr

That is an awesome shot and maybe the best view yet. In a few months when wtc 1 becomes obviously larger than it's counterparts around it, that's going to be so awesome!

[jthornton17]

So just a question for everyone. How does everyone like the new 1wtc so far? Back when it first starter and they had the models and designs, do you think it looks better now that it's making it's mark? I have to say myself, the glass looks much better in pictures than it did on anything else so far.

[Fishman92]

So just a question for everyone. How does everyone like the new 1wtc so far? Back when it first starter and they had the models and designs, do you think it looks better now that it's making it's mark? I have to say myself, the glass looks much better in pictures than it did on anything else so far.

I think it will look better than we expect it will. It looks good in the renders- but with the glass being installed on it now it looks fantastic. It'll be very shiny, lol!

[sterlippo1]

So just a question for everyone. How does everyone like the new 1wtc so far? Back when it first starter and they had the models and designs, do you think it looks better now that it's making it's mark? I have to say myself, the glass looks much better in pictures than it did on anything else so far.

i love it and it will look even better in the flesh than STR's renderings and that is saying something!

[RockMont]

So just a question for everyone. How does everyone like the new 1wtc so far? Back when it first starter and they had the models and designs, do you think it looks better now that it's making it's mark? I have to say myself, the glass looks much better in pictures than it did on anything else so far.

I'll let you know in a couple of years when it is complete. As far as progress goes, I pleased with most of that.

[aquablue]

If the complex turns out like this video, i'd be happy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egjyM53J2A0

[AuxTown]

If the complex turns out like this video, i'd be happy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egjyM53J2A0

AMAZING! :tup:

[The North One]

Actually, it did. In fact, structurally, it could have mounted an identical antenna to the other tower, though it wasn't built with the broadcast facilities on the 110th floor.

The height discrepancy was due to two floors being taller in Tower 1, due to special needs by the Port Authority.

With all the crap removed from the roofs:
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/5238/t57b.jpg

So tower one really was taller? or was it just the hump that was taller?

I always thought that was a lie because I thought that people would look at the towers from a perspective that made one seem taller then the other because of the layout of the two towers. they weren't directly side by side. like this photo...
http://wirednewyork.com/wtc/images/twins_east_river.jpg
http://wirednewyork.com/wtc2.htm

but in this image it makes it seem tower 2 is taller, but it was the opposite?

[uaarkson]

Tower 2 is closer to the photographer in that shot, that's why it looks taller.

[rjb001]

So we're taller than 7 WTC now right? Sorry if I missed the announcement I just didn't see much about it in the past few pages.

[Domamania]

So we're taller than 7 WTC now right? Sorry if I missed the announcement I just didn't see much about it in the past few pages.

Officially not yet , but when the next steel vertical beam is installed into place then yes Tower 1 will be taller than tower 7

[The North One]

Tower 2 is closer to the photographer in that shot, that's why it looks taller.

I know that, but im saying that from people seeing it from that perspective might have made them thought that one of the towers where taller.

[Don098]

I know that, but im saying that from people seeing it from that perspective might have made them thought that one of the towers where taller.

Maybe if they have no depth perception?? This is a very odd discussion...

[Kevin Scott Koepke]

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5104/5597288844_6f264478ec.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinskoepke/5597288844/)
manhattan dawn. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinskoepke/5597288844/) by ksk photography (http://www.flickr.com/people/kevinskoepke/), on Flickr

[STR]

I know that, but im saying that from people seeing it from that perspective might have made them thought that one of the towers where taller.


No. Apparently you missed the part where I gave out the exact elevations.

[The North One]

No. Apparently you missed the part where I gave out the exact elevations.

what are the exact elevations then?

[The North One]

Maybe if they have no depth perception?? This is a very odd discussion...

why is it odd?

[Kevin Scott Koepke]

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5307/5598588522_7c43cebecb_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinskoepke/5598588522/)
manhattan dawn. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinskoepke/5598588522/) by ksk photography (http://www.flickr.com/people/kevinskoepke/), on Flickr

[Fishman92]

Vertical steel just installed on south face- officially making it taller (structurally) than WTC 7!!
http://i56.tinypic.com/2qzk4.png

[jowens]

So tower one really was taller? or was it just the hump that was taller?

I always thought that was a lie because I thought that people would look at the towers from a perspective that made one seem taller then the other because of the layout of the two towers. they weren't directly side by side. like this photo...
http://wirednewyork.com/wtc/images/twins_east_river.jpg
http://wirednewyork.com/wtc2.htm

Man, I miss the twins..........they're so imposing in this pic! :(

[Plokoon11]

Wooo hooooo!!!!! FINALLY!!! :banana::banana::cheers:
Its time to party! :notacrook:

[SkyscrapersOfNewYork]

this is truly Historical. we can now usher in the welcoming of Lower Manhattan's (and soon to be all of Manhattan's) king.

[bunky]

http://benjaminrosamond.com/r1302220166/cc/8/0/3/12803/w/1400x720-t151onVIRZc2Eiqg.jpg



View from 11 floors up, on a hill, in Brooklyn, which will hopefully minimize parallax error.

Working on a time lapse film from this viewpoint hence the lack of photos lately. Should be done in a year or two. :doh:


http://benjaminrosamond.com/section/211801_WTC.html

[At0m1CSn0w]

Party time indeed
In that case :cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:
:banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:

[Zensteeldude]

:previous: WOW, great pics !

Curb your enthusiasum. T1 even with the next lift will be 2 inches shorter than tower 7. (I added the 4 feet for the splice.)

Or, with the splice plates with there lifting eyes T1 will be about 18 inches taller.

[djlx2]

Party time indeed
In that case :cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:
:banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:

I'll throw in on this with dancing bananas.

[Rail>Auto]

http://benjaminrosamond.com/r1302220166/cc/8/0/3/12803/w/1400x720-t151onVIRZc2Eiqg.jpg



View from 11 floors up, on a hill, in Brooklyn, which will hopefully minimize parallax error.

Working on a time lapse film from this viewpoint hence the lack of photos lately. Should be done in a year or two. :doh:


http://benjaminrosamond.com/section/211801_WTC.html

Awesome! You can also see the Barclays Center going up in Brooklyn in the bottom right corner.. Soon to be the home to the Brooklyn Nets.

[Kevin Scott Koepke]

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5262/5599270059_7f80b7cff5_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinskoepke/5599270059/)
manhattan dawn. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinskoepke/5599270059/) by ksk photography (http://www.flickr.com/people/kevinskoepke/), on Flickr

[Dwils01]

Nice pics guys.
Has made a lot of progress since I seen it in May.
Will make another trip to New York City when the tower is complete.

[2-TOWERS]

Man, I miss the twins..........they're so imposing in this pic! :(

wow ...amazing what we lost:(

[Big Towers]

Nice to see that the 1WTC is technically taller than the 7WTC.

[NYCLuver]

It's nice to see 1WTC finally reaching that milestone of surpassing 7WTC... or just about anyway. I'm excited to see it finally bust through the plateau and make people begin to notice it around the city from all over! Should be an exciting summer and fall!

Oh and yes, I have been lazy lately so no new pictures from me at the moment. I hope to get some either this weekend or next week for sure. Sorry! :D

[Lecom]

So now 1WTC is once again the tallest building at the Worlsd Trade Center site. It took us almost exactly ten years, but finally here we are.

:cheers:

[Traynor]

If it is really official, then I'll break out the Lower-Manhattan checklist:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5147/5601218646_8e9cc9c35d_b.jpg
(Culminated from the Diagrams section found here: http://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?cityID=8 )

[Lecom]

^Hmm, good call. It would be cool if you could keep the checklist up top date as time progresses.

[J.M.]

How is this for sure now? Just wondering

[Zensteeldude]

The Discovery channel cam #2 shows core steel and some columns on the south side.

I think it's for real this time, T1 is now taller than 7.

[Obey]

I can see the steel from my apartment!

[Domamania]

Right now it would be perfect for carlos to take a picture from his place at Tower 1 WTC to see if it actually superceeded Tower 7 or not.

[The Grand Architect]

Right now it would be perfect for carlos to take a picture from his place at Tower 1 WTC to see if it actually superceeded Tower 7 or not.

There's no need. It is already proven with the existing pics.

[twintowersII-2011]

the new buildings are so great
but i stil miss the grand twin towers

[Lecom]

How is this for sure now? Just wondering

This is not for sure. It's purely speculation. However, it's hard to argue that even if 1WTC hasn't passed 7WTC yet, it's one beam away, at most, from passing 7.

the new buildings are so great
but i stil miss the grand twin towers

You're preaching to the choir. For all the misgivings that the original WTC had, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that doesn't miss the old Twin Towers in their full glory, especially those who were lucky enough to see them in person and awe at their glory firsthand.

[Big Towers]

1 WTC still has a long way to go as far as I'm concerned.

[JDRCRASH]

1 WTC still has a long way to go as far as I'm concerned.

I think the REAL celebration will start when it starts passing the great relics of NYC's skyline.:)

It's already about to pass Woolworth, which I think will happen by the end of April.

[QUEENSNYMAN]

It's already about to pass Woolworth, which I think will happen by the end of April.


I cannot wait!

[Zensteeldude]

The Twins are gone, and there are many many folks that will miss them, including me.

Let us embrace the future.

Now, if we can just get some dry weather so we can get this tower up !!!!!!!!

I hear that dispite the weather, topping out is to be on or near the 41st aniversery of the topping out of the North Tower. December 23rd.

(No, this does not include the spire.)

[The Grand Architect]

It's already about to pass Woolworth, which I think will happen by the end of April.


I cannot wait!

According to the diagram posted by Traynor, the other buildings to the left of the 7 WTC are not more than about 200 feet in difference in terms of height. I wouldn't be surprised if 1 WTC will become the tallest building in Lower Manhattan by the end of July at the rate it's being built.

[Zensteeldude]

If Mother Nature cooperates we will see a floor a week again soon.

13' 4" per floor per week. Until we hit the 89th floor then it's not so simple.

26' 8" per lift, two lifts a month.

The steel is sitting there on trailers in South Plainfield, NJ just waiting to go up, all we need is good weather.

Everyone on this forum, give a collective prayer for a dry spring, let us get this Tower up !

(Even if you have never prayed for anything in your life, pray for this. I am praying to God, man and Mother Nature right now.)

[rjb001]

Is that 41st anniversary this year? Or 2012?

[djlx2]

I certainly hope these go up soon, and at a quick rate. The rainy season will hopefully pass too, though it has been pretty dreary and right now, construction probably needs a bit of sunny dryness so that it can go up reinforced and without damaged foundations.
Here's fingers crossed that it goes up and that that the reinforcement is solid enough to keep it sturdy.

[TANGELD_SLC]

Praying, fingers crossed, RAISE THE FREEDOM TOWER! :notacrook:

This is incredible. Can't wait for WTC1 to pass up Woolworth. :D

[AustinSkyscrapers]

Yeah. In just a few floors (=few weeks :D) Woolworth will be done for, and then probably later in April/May, One Chase in in the dust.

[Zensteeldude]

Is that 41st anniversary this year? Or 2012?

The topping out ceremony of 1 WTC (North Tower) took place on December 23, 1970.

The plan is to top out on or near December 23rd 2011.

[Obey]

Cellphone pic (from today):

http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/1271/img4609z.jpg

[The Grand Architect]

Praying, fingers crossed, RAISE THE FREEDOM TOWER! :notacrook:

This is incredible. Can't wait for WTC1 to pass up Woolworth. :D

Can't wait for 1WTC to pass Beekman.

[JDRCRASH]

BTW, for anyone debating whether it really has passed 7 WTC, go look on Google Earth and look at the 3d model of the building. It's updated pretty often.

[OptimumPx]

BTW, for anyone debating whether it really has passed 7 WTC, go look on Google Earth and look at the 3d model of the building. It's updated pretty often.
Doesn't help really, the 1 WTC model was last updated on 03/21/2011 and claims a height of "224m/734ft/60fl." :(

[CGII]

1WTC is just a few feet taller than 7WTC. I'm looking at it right now.

[NYYskyline]

Cellphone pic (from today):

http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/1271/img4609z.jpg

from this angle, it looks like 1 WTC looks a bit shorter than 7 WTC

[sterlippo1]

i have been following this thread for sometime now and it has been great, thank you to everyone . i just came back from NY, my first visit since last october and for someone that has seen every picture on this thread and follow it on a daily basis to have seen this monster in person a was jaw dropping experience. as great as all the pictures have been and they really have been, until you see this in person you can't feel it's enormity and the awesomeness of the entire site, breathtaking while at the same time humbling :worship:

[Fishman92]

from this angle, it looks like 1 WTC looks a bit shorter than 7 WTC

It does, but it's the steel that counts!

[Zensteeldude]

1WTC is just a few feet taller than 7WTC. I'm looking at it right now.

Photo by TowersNYC aka Carlos over at SSC.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5306/5606048588_a600f93c01_o.jpg

I think everyone can agree now, T1 passed T7.

[Obey]

^^^ Yup :)

[djlx2]

Doesn't help really, the 1 WTC model was last updated on 03/21/2011 and claims a height of "224m/734ft/60fl." :(

Yeah, Google Earth is useful but incredibly oblique source. You can get an good general idea from that kind of internet tool but I definitely wouldn't trust it the way I trust facts from the source.
Like your quote, Optimum!

[sw5710]

Zen: The last posted picture shows 1WTC steel above 7WTC. It is just over 750'

[Zensteeldude]

Yes it does.:yes: And yes it is

[The Grand Architect]

Reminds me of the old WTC- 1WTC is like 6 feet taller than the 2 WTC. The current situation is so similar to that.

[Thaniel]

Self-explanitory
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/1226/68562965.jpg

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4585/54049395.jpg

Very cool, thanks for posting.

I still kinda wish they had done something cooler for Tower 3 and Tower 4, something more like the Tic-tac-toe design by Richard Meier, Peter Eisenman, Charles Gwathmey and Steven Holl

VVVV

http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/terrorism/assets/wtc_replacement1.jpg

[Obey]

^^^ I totally forgot about that design. Brings back memories.

[Troubadour]

I'm of the strict opinion that horizontal connections in skyscrapers should only be in the form of arches (at least on the underside), not pure perpendicular elements.

[The Grand Architect]

Latest update, today 4/11/11:


*The following information was last updated on April 11, 2011.

-Facade installation is now above floor 27
-Tower steel is now above floor 62
-Concrete is now being installed above floor 50
-Spray-on fireproofing underway
-Installation of elevator rails
-Multiple cranes on site for steel and concrete installation
-Both the south and north cores are now being erected as the structure rises
-"Cocoon" safety system now in place around upper perimeter, to rise with structure
-Utility installation and tie-ins
-Crews are coordinating substructure construction while maintaining PATH service

[Zapatan]

That last rendering almost makes the new complex look better than the old one, and with the new height increases it definitely will. (if they are true)

:cheers:

[sterlippo1]

^^^ I totally forgot about that design. Brings back memories.

yeah, bad ones. that thing is horrible:slob: