SAN DIEGO | Boom Rundown, Vol. 2

[dl3000]

Ahh this gets me in the mood for fictitious maps of how we wish the future transit network would look. I remember eburress had a pretty awesome one.

I always had this idea that the airport would move to Miramar and then a big intermodal hub would be built at the corner of the property closest to downtown. Here, high speed rail, trolley and whatever other future local transit, Coaster, Amtrak, and an Airport Express line would all convene. Theres space for all that stuff there. It would also relieve the train traffic through downtown (if only something could be done about the freight trains like trenching). Just some things I thought would be ideal.

Oh, and the Chargers stadium would be next door.

[Fusey]

What it comes down to, imo, is a bias.

More like experience from witnessing 'rail only' corridors throughout the country, whether they be in San Diego, Sacramento or Chicago. They encourage loitering, particularly when it comes to gangs and the homeless; most businesses do not want to be located where those activities are active, nor do potential residents, which hurts redevelopment.

I'd agree. In fact, I think freeways are a dis-investment. Freeways bring more cars... that's all they do. And the necessary response is to provide more costly parking and local roadway improvments to handle the additional traffic. More cars make walking less pedestrian friendly, and consequently does more harm to downtown areas than no freeway investment at all. Freeway widening encourages blight.

When over 90% of commuters choose to drive, then freeways are considered an investment. Just like if people are fed up with freeway traffic, then transit is considered an investment. Every industrialized country on this planet has freeways, so obviously cars -- and freeways -- are not going away any time soon. The argument that we don't need more freeways is the same as a nimby claiming that we don't need any more skyscrapers.

[bmfarley]

When over 90% of commuters choose to drive, then freeways are considered an investment. Just like if people are fed up with freeway traffic, then transit is considered an investment. Every industrialized country on this planet has freeways, so obviously cars -- and freeways -- are not going away any time soon. The argument that we don't need more freeways is the same as a nimby claiming that we don't need any more skyscrapers.

I'd agree that balance is needed when investing in transportation. However, in San Diego, the mighty highway has had it's day. They do not relieve congestion; they increase the number of cars on the roadway and exacerbate congestion in already congested areas... like downtown areas. LA has learned this lesson and is instead developing alternative transportation network. Orange and San Diego counties have not yet caught up to this level of thinking.

[sdFan09]

i may have been wrong in saying freeway "expansion". But it makes sense to invest in freeways by making them more efficient through smarter systems and better maintenance. The HOV lanes on the 15 have seemed to make an improvement. Most people in the county use the freeways. At the same time of all the things I said you guys focused on the "FREEWAY EXPANSION" part of my post. The main point I was trying to make was that San Diegans focus on spending, and forget about investing. We could invest in things like a new stadium, new sports arena, new airport, BETTER freeways, more/better transit, etc. It is a tough time with money, but investing in the future will still be positive.

[Marina_Guy]

Those are no more on C Street than they are on Broadway or 5th Avenue. In fact, I'd argue that you'll count more on those than on C Street.

Crime is another observation... check out the SDPD crime maps... it's spread out all over downtown and no more on C Street than anywhere else.

What it comes down to, imo, is a bias.

Maybe you can help me understand something about the downtown segment of the trolley. You seem very knowledgeable and I value your opinion. When I go to other cities there are street car systems like in Portland and now Seattle that the automobile and "trolley" co-exist (They are all over Europe too). You actually drive on the tracks. You do this in SF with the cable car too. I don't think these new systems are true light rail. Why can't we do such a system in downtown? To me the worst thing about the trolley downtown is that it 'de-activated' C Street. I think a street car system could also move people to Little Italy, Gaslamp, East Village, etc. Given the incline to Hillcrest that might be more of a challenge. Your thoughts?

[keg92101]

Maybe you help me understand something about the downtown segment of the trolley. You seem very knowledgeable and I value your opinion. When I go to other cities there are street car systems like in Portland and now Seattle that the automobile and "trolley" co-exist (They are all over Europe too). You actually drive on the tracks. You do this in SF with the cable car too. I don't think these new systems are true light rail. Why can't we do such a system in downtown? To me the worst thing about the trolley downtown is that it 'de-activated' C Street. I think a street car system could also move people to Little Italy, Gaslamp, East Village, etc. Given the incline to Hillcrest that might be more of a challenge. Your thoughts?

Completely agree. The trolley should be as Portland's light rail system, that merely runs THROUGH their downtown, and then is serviced by their street car system. Our Trolley should service from TJ to Mid-City to Santee, like it does, and then all of downtown, uptown, Golden Hill, North Park, could be serviced by the street car, which cars could travel on the same lane as it.

[kpexpress]

More like experience from witnessing 'rail only' corridors throughout the country, whether they be in San Diego, Sacramento or Chicago. They encourage loitering, particularly when it comes to gangs and the homeless; most businesses do not want to be located where those activities are active, nor do potential residents, which hurts redevelopment.



When over 90% of commuters choose to drive, then freeways are considered an investment. Just like if people are fed up with freeway traffic, then transit is considered an investment. Every industrialized country on this planet has freeways, so obviously cars -- and freeways -- are not going away any time soon. The argument that we don't need more freeways is the same as a nimby claiming that we don't need any more skyscrapers.

For some reason while I was reading your comments I was hearing the voice of Tracy Morgan narrate what you were saying.

[kpexpress]

Completely agree. The trolley should be as Portland's light rail system, that merely runs THROUGH their downtown, and then is serviced by their street car system. Our Trolley should service from TJ to Mid-City to Santee, like it does, and then all of downtown, uptown, Golden Hill, North Park, could be serviced by the street car, which cars could travel on the same lane as it.

I agree completely. I would love to see some street cars running from horton plaza to bankers hill, then to hillcrest, then turn and go down university ave to North Park, south through south park and golden hill, then enter downtown through F street and tie back into horton plaza. Street cars going in both directions, one every 30 mins at least.

[IconRPCV]

Also one going up Park blvd from City College to University Heights then down Adams to Kensington then right to El Cajon blvd and back to Park blvd,

[Marina_Guy]

Completely agree. The trolley should be as Portland's light rail system, that merely runs THROUGH their downtown, and then is serviced by their street car system. Our Trolley should service from TJ to Mid-City to Santee, like it does, and then all of downtown, uptown, Golden Hill, North Park, could be serviced by the street car, which cars could travel on the same lane as it.

Why is this not discussed? We seem to be very behind in mass transportation ideas in San Diego. I am sure there are federal $$ for street cars...


To me it is almost unexcusable to not have a trolley line to the Airport. I mean, come on, to extend that line the mile or two from its existing track seems to be something the airport authority could finance. It can't be that expensive. Almost every new light rail system in the US/North America goes to the airport... Seattle, Portland, Vancouver, Minneapolis, etc..

[brantw]

Hey everyone, just wanted to share some photos I took the past couple of days. Nothing too amazing, because they're only with my iPhone, but I haven't seen any pictures in this thread in a little while.

Vantage Pointe
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2676/3886444602_8a556ace53.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2570/3886444674_816bfcc2aa.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3472/3885648753_35b644fe22.jpg

Ten Fifty B
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3478/3885649053_d07bda2f56.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3441/3885648941_dd34f4dce4.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2582/3886445020_502ba3085b.jpg

Nine Five Place?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2445/3886445340_4c75eba41b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3508/3886445402_765f27968c.jpg

Don't know the name of this one, but I really like it
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2612/3886445480_d4f5ba01df.jpg

Here's the view from my balcony
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2423/3885649501_b45e3fecc3.jpg

Random photo of the Irvine Police in Downtown San Diego?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2636/3886445616_a1ef45aac6.jpg

Harbor Drive Pedestrian Bridge
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3461/3886445806_6aaa3916a2.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2595/3885649645_3123cd4f37.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2617/3886445864_137797776e.jpg

Ever wondered how they transport the Oracle?
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3430/3886445948_da047afa07.jpg

Hope you enjoyed them. If you guys have any requests for some other pictures, let me know, I have a lot of free time on my hands. =)

[Derek]

Nice pics!

[brantw]

This is one of my favorite views of downtown. It seems the most dense, here.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3422/3888592346_6c793a3d7d.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2569/3888592250_0dc331dc80.jpg

The Broadway Pier Cruiseship Terminal - Nothing much going on here, yet. They are dismantling the existing structure.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2472/3888591906_c0c69b05df.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3524/3888591966_7679ecb83b.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2486/3887797065_11a111f82a.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3425/3888592152_3310b47d35.jpg

Faia by Jonathan Segal in Little Italy - This building is pretty cool.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2465/3887796235_927c0e81d7.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2609/3887796135_ca3f571112.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2551/3887796049_a9e4bab3f4.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2587/3888590992_5245ac76c6.jpg

Future Commercial Development Lane Field - Who knows when this will get started.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2573/3887796819_db51463da2.jpg

Breeza
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3474/3888591336_347aefcd33.jpg

Bayside by Bosa - Not sure if I like the color of this. It's a huge building, though.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2526/3888591700_4bec20bdac.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2507/3888591580_82358137d8.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2604/3887796451_b22638e64e.jpg

More to come, next week!

[Derek]

Keep them coming!

[bmfarley]

Maybe you can help me understand something about the downtown segment of the trolley. You seem very knowledgeable and I value your opinion. When I go to other cities there are street car systems like in Portland and now Seattle that the automobile and "trolley" co-exist (They are all over Europe too). You actually drive on the tracks. You do this in SF with the cable car too. I don't think these new systems are true light rail. Why can't we do such a system in downtown? To me the worst thing about the trolley downtown is that it 'de-activated' C Street. I think a street car system could also move people to Little Italy, Gaslamp, East Village, etc. Given the incline to Hillcrest that might be more of a challenge. Your thoughts?

No, those are examples of light-rail systems... in many of those instances they'd be called streetcars. And, there are at least three different types; Historic, Vintage, and Modern.

Historic is like San Francisco's cable cars... very old systems. Small, very little capacity... 20-30-ish. There are overhead electrical ones too, but I cannot readily think of an example.

Vintage is like the WWII or post war types. San Francisco and Phildelpia run them. Probably others too. SF's is the F Street line. Medium capacity... 30-50-ish. That includes standees.

Modern... that is what Portland has. They are a bit longer and can carry more riders. They are typically low-floor allowing easy access for disabled riders.

The Historic and Vintage ones only have a cab/driver on one end. Thus, they need to be turned around somehow on the end of the line; turntable or a looping track. They cannot couple to other cars.. therefore they cannot really provide high capacity transit. And, they tend to be slower than light-rail. These factors tend to make them limited to only enabling short distance travel.

Streetcars are unlike light-rail that we have come to known; which is faster and has much higher capacity. Although, the Trolley does operate at-grade and in-street along C Street. That's called street-car mode; whereas it operates in an environment very much like streetcars, in a street. However, by policy, and out of safety and practicality, cars are not allowed to drive on the tracks. Why... light-rail is heavier than street cars and need a longer braking distance. Can you imagine a car swerving into the front of a Trolley to make a left turn... only to stop right infront of it? Additionally, the trains are too long and the blocks are too short. Imagine, if you will, a car stops at a red light and a long trains pulls up behind it? As a result, the tail of the train blocks the street behind it. Trains and cars sharing the roadway on C Street is not an option under present conditions.

I am not finished, but that's it for now as I'm leaving town. Have a nice weekend.

[brantw]

Skyline from Balboa Park
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2496/3897154781_6b74a56506.jpg

[HurricaneHugo]

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/images/headers/8.jpg

Nice.

[bmfarley]

Maybe you can help me understand something about the downtown segment of the trolley. You seem very knowledgeable and I value your opinion. When I go to other cities there are street car systems like in Portland and now Seattle that the automobile and "trolley" co-exist (They are all over Europe too). You actually drive on the tracks. You do this in SF with the cable car too. I don't think these new systems are true light rail. Why can't we do such a system in downtown? To me the worst thing about the trolley downtown is that it 'de-activated' C Street. I think a street car system could also move people to Little Italy, Gaslamp, East Village, etc. Given the incline to Hillcrest that might be more of a challenge. Your thoughts?

Part 2...

One, I don't subscribe to the idea that the Trolley "deactivated" C Street. Two, any relationship between the two should be discussed at the same time as the following:

* The role and activities of C Street just prior to the Trolley, circa 1981?
* The County jail; essentially building a barrier across C Street at Union.
* City/County policies pushing/supporting/investing in business centers outside of the downtown core.
* Public sector lack of investment and upkeep along the street.
* Private sector turning their backs to the street.
* Horton Plaza.

In my opinion, the Trolley played as much a positive role for downtown San Diego as Horton Plaza did.

[Marina_Guy]

Part 2...

One, I don't subscribe to the idea that the Trolley "deactivated" C Street. Two, any relationship between the two should be discussed at the same time as the following:

* The role and activities of C Street just prior to the Trolley, circa 1981?
* The County jail; essentially building a barrier across C Street at Union.
* City/County policies pushing/supporting/investing in business centers outside of the downtown core.
* Public sector lack of investment and upkeep along the street.
* Private sector turning their backs to the street.
* Horton Plaza.

In my opinion, the Trolley played as much a positive role for downtown San Diego as Horton Plaza did.

Agreed. Things do not happen in isolation. I do believe the width of the street and the odd way that cars can or cannot navigate has made the street challenging for automobiles. Also, the blight along the street has not been addressed...only in 'plans'. I do remember the discussion about whether to put the trolley on C Street or Broadway in the early 80's. Looking back, I think Broadway may have been a better choice since it is wider and had a historic retail core.

I am only interested in looking forward these days... and I think street cars have some potential to improve downtown transit mobility and encourage more retail activity.

Thanks.

[sandiegodweller]

Entitlements in downtown San Diego have little intrinsic value. CCDC basically rubber stamps approval of your application as long as it meets their guidelines and there is little or no public opposition to almost every submittal.

Regarding the Simplon site, the current approvals decrease the value of the property. The requirement to relocate and build a new $5 million firestation make it less valuable. If Cisterra doesn't get refinanced out of the deal in BK court, they will go back to the drawing board and redesign a different project.

If the site was actually worth more than the $17 million +/- that Cisterra paid for the note, why didn't anyone else figure it out while the note was being marketed for 2+ months?

http://residentialpropertyanalytics.blogspot.com/2009/04/land-values-at-zero.html

[mello]

Finally got back to visit family and friends after a year in Korea and 7 months in NYC. Well I must say that the skyline is looking pretty decent. I saw it from the air maybe 8000 feet or so after take off and you know what, it looked respectable. Not Miami, not Vanouver but pretty decent. I think Vantage Pointe and the buildings along Market and the Hilton have done a lot to make SD look like an actual "city" from the air.

From other angles Vantage Pointe is a nice new Eastern "anchor" for the skyline. Having been living in NY I was curious to compare the Jersey City skyline to downtown SD and SD definitely blows it away.

Other impressions: Space for Rent/Commercial Space available signs everywhere! WOW! My dentists office parking lot off of Executive way in UTC was a ghost TOWN and this was on Thursday not Friday. I couldn't believe all of the empty office space and parking lots all over North County.

I also noticed more people walking then I remembered. Looks like kiddies aren't getting cars at 16 and 18 like they used to. And all the empty lots and dirt look pretty funky when you come from an East Coast perspective and you are accustomed to big shade trees in many areas. Overall it still seems like a nice place but tell me where I can get a job paying over 30 k per year???

New poll for everyone- How many people do you know who are 35 years old or younger and make over 35k per year in San Diego county?

[bmfarley]

Maybe you can help me understand something about the downtown segment of the trolley. You seem very knowledgeable and I value your opinion. When I go to other cities there are street car systems like in Portland and now Seattle that the automobile and "trolley" co-exist (They are all over Europe too). You actually drive on the tracks. You do this in SF with the cable car too. I don't think these new systems are true light rail. Why can't we do such a system in downtown? To me the worst thing about the trolley downtown is that it 'de-activated' C Street. I think a street car system could also move people to Little Italy, Gaslamp, East Village, etc. Given the incline to Hillcrest that might be more of a challenge. Your thoughts?


Part 3

Yes, streetcar systems are nice.

Technically, I think a streetcar could be designed to make it up to Hillcrest. However... with the cost of laying track, building stations, running trains... the function of moving lots of people should be considered. Although I use to live in Banker's Hill, I am uncertain sufficient demand exists to provide a good argument for spending $50m to $100m per mile to build something like that. That is excluding the likely possibility to need to provide a maintenance and storage yard for streetcars... let alone locate a nearby site for one.

If a new system, or extension of an existing system, could successfully prove/argue that there would be sufficient demand and user benefit... then the Feds may provide up to 50% of the construction cost. The other half would be a state/local responsibility.

That seems like an uphill battle, pardon the pun.


Regarding airport connection... The Trolley already goes to the airport. The problem is... the airport terminals are not located to provide an easy connection to the Trolley. But... kidding aside, when the extension to Old Town was being examined an effort looked at an alignment to/through the airport. I am not familiar with the precise alignment; however, challenges existed with remaining below a certain height... and clearing the Coast Guard taxiway. Did you know Coast Guard planes have the ability to taxi across Harbor? It's 700-800 feet west of Laurel and Harbor. Anyway, it seems if water intrusion could be managed that going below that taxiway could have been a possibility.... if it were examined? Anyway, the Old Town alignment included a station at Palm St. for the possibility that the airport relocated terminals to the east side of the runways. So, maybe I was not kidding? Either way, if a new alignment were added to the Trolley system, a larger question involves how to tie it into the existing network (where do airport trains go to, or come from... and then blend safely in with other trains?)

[Marina_Guy]

Part 3

Regarding airport connection... The Trolley already goes to the airport. The problem is... the airport terminals are not located to provide an easy connection to the Trolley. But... kidding aside, when the extension to Old Town was being examined an effort looked at an alignment to/through the airport. I am not familiar with the precise alignment; however, challenges existed with remaining below a certain height... and clearing the Coast Guard taxiway. Did you know Coast Guard planes have the ability to taxi across Harbor? It's 700-800 feet west of Laurel and Harbor. Anyway, it seems if water intrusion could be managed that going below that taxiway could have been a possibility.... if it were examined? Anyway, the Old Town alignment included a station at Palm St. for the possibility that the airport relocated terminals to the east side of the runways. So, maybe I was not kidding? Either way, if a new alignment were added to the Trolley system, a larger question involves how to tie it into the existing network (where do airport trains go to, or come from... and then blend safely in with other trains?)

How about a line down Harbor Drive into Pt Loma?


A street car system along the North Embarcadero would be a nice addition.

We do need to figure out how to better link downtown with Hillcrest and Balboa Park. To me this should be a huge priority.

[brantw]

Park & Island - Anybody know what this project is called?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2534/3903067048_e9c85cee3c.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3509/3903066948_f0bd5774cd.jpg

Smart Corner - Really not a good part of town. I walked through here at about 12:00 noon as saw people drinking from Bacardi bottles.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2483/3903066842_971579048a.jpg

Future home of the San Diego library - Nothing going on =(
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2534/3903067194_0aeb29fe67.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2568/3902289069_c64b2ff653.jpg

Unfortunately, I think this is really it for the new construction. Things seemed to have really slowed down for now...

[dl3000]

Thanks for all the photo updates. Agreed on Smart Corner.

[Derek]

IMO, it actually seems like things have been picking up a little bit...

[glowrock]

San Diego's certainly a wonderful, wonderful city. The new construction over the last 5-10 years has been simply astounding as well! There are a few problems, though.

1) Nearly all of the new construction has been hotel or residential, almost no commercial/office space. In other words, where the hell are people supposed to work?

2) The trolley doesn't connect up through Balboa Park. Huge issue, especially for tourists wanting to get to the museums and the zoo. Of course a huge issue for the locals as well!

3) The amount of for lease, for rent, and for sale signs is simply astounding, even in the Gaslamp environs, though predominately a block or two east of there.

All of that being said, I was just in town for a whopping day and a half, and had a blast. Walked all over Gaslamp, Seaport Village, Horton Plaza, some of the rest of Downtown, etc... Also took the trolley to Old Town, and then saw the zoo the next morning. Stayed in an awesome hotel Saturday night (Hilton Gaslamp), talk about a great location!

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Derek]

There's a few commercial projects that haven't got off the ground yet. The big one being 700 W Broadway.

[Fusey]

1) Nearly all of the new construction has been hotel or residential, almost no commercial/office space. In other words, where the hell are people supposed to work?

I have lived in downtown for the last two years and worked in Mission Valley and Sorrento Valley. When I did construction (around 2002-2004) I lived in Mission Valley and commuted downtown. Go figure. :haha:


2) The trolley doesn't connect up through Balboa Park. Huge issue, especially for tourists wanting to get to the museums and the zoo. Of course a huge issue for the locals as well!

There are buses that service both, but tourists generally find rail easier. I agree with you, though. One of the trolley's biggest problems is that it only hits a couple of tourist spots (Gaslamp, Qualcomm Stadium, etc.).

3) The amount of for lease, for rent, and for sale signs is simply astounding, even in the Gaslamp environs, though predominately a block or two east of there.

Those won't fill up until all of those condos do. There's simply little retail demand at the moment. There have been some minor improvements, like finally getting a decent hardware store, but that's about it.

[brantw]

Looking south on India St. from my balcony
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3514/3906677669_3b4248c598.jpg

Looking north
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3479/3906678095_c3d3353222.jpg

[bmfarley]

There are buses that service both, but tourists generally find rail easier. I agree with you, though. One of the trolley's biggest problems is that it only hits a couple of tourist spots (Gaslamp, Qualcomm Stadium, etc.).


Tourists do not make up a large portion of transit ridership. Nor do the presence of them make a transit line successful or not. Train lines are expensive and should be designed to carry the main market during periods of the day when congestion is at its peak times. That period of day is during commute times and the market includes employees and sometimes school kids; they each travel during the morning commute times. However, school transportation is seasonal.

The zoo is an example. It's open 9am 'til sunset and attendance is influenced by the seasons of the year. I find it hard to take seriously any proposal to build a train line for the purpose of serving the zoo.

If a line when up to Hillcrest/Mid-City or beyond, and served a sufficient number of commute period users... and happened to run by the zoo, we'd might have a winner.

[spoonman]

Park & Island - Anybody know what this project is called?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2534/3903067048_e9c85cee3c.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3509/3903066948_f0bd5774cd.jpg


This is the new building for the Thomas Jefferson School of Law.

http://www.lajollacapitalpartners.com/img/recent_transactions/TJSL-Downtown.jpg

[glowrock]

Tourists do not make up a large portion of transit ridership. Nor do the presence of them make a transit line successful or not. Train lines are expensive and should be designed to carry the main market during periods of the day when congestion is at its peak times. That period of day is during commute times and the market includes employees and sometimes school kids; they each travel during the morning commute times. However, school transportation is seasonal.

The zoo is an example. It's open 9am 'til sunset and attendance is influenced by the seasons of the year. I find it hard to take seriously any proposal to build a train line for the purpose of serving the zoo.

If a line when up to Hillcrest/Mid-City or beyond, and served a sufficient number of commute period users... and happened to run by the zoo, we'd might have a winner.

I agree that a train line needs to be built up through Hillcrest, but I also think a connection into Balboa Park is essential. It's not just the zoo, it's all of the museums there, plus the fact that tens of thousands of people use Balboa Park every day just as a park, and not necessarily as a tourist attraction. Besides, the line could connect up back in Mission Valley, basically completing a loop.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[IconRPCV]

I think the best alignment would be to put the trolley line in the median of the 163 and then connecting into the existing green line at the Fashion Valley Mall thus making a loop. This would have a minimal impact on the existing uptown communities. Stops could be at The Prado, Robertson or University Ave., somewhere in the UCSD medical center area, and then at Hotel Circle, before connecting into the green line at the transit center.

[SDfan]

I don't think any trolley lines are going to be pushed through balboa or the upper neighborhoods. The bus system is actually pretty efficent in those areas, and I know because I take them to sdsu through there. Granted, something odd happens everyday. The other day a police officer shoved a drunken man on the bus saying the ride was "courtesy of Jerry Sanders". So I guess its best the tourists stay off our transit system.

The only way I could see a trolley running through those areas would be if they were underground. That would be a sight...and highly unlikely.

[glowrock]

I think the best alignment would be to put the trolley line in the median of the 163 and then connecting into the existing green line at the Fashion Valley Mall thus making a loop. This would have a minimal impact on the existing uptown communities. Stops could be at The Prado, Robertson or University Ave., somewhere in the UCSD medical center area, and then at Hotel Circle, before connecting into the green line at the transit center.

I agree with this. Less impact on the neighborhoods, and it certainly completes a loop, as well as allows tourists car-free access to Balboa Park via The Prado...

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Fusey]

So I guess its best the tourists stay off our transit system.

I think it depends on the transit line. I've never had any issues on the Coaster (then again it is more expensive to use). My worst experiences have been on the Orange Line and the #30 bus. Compared to Sacramento Regional Transit, though, SDMTS is heaven on Earth. When I lived in Sac I stopped riding light rail due to the violence that came through those trains.

[voice of reason]

I have never understood the reasoning behind peoples desire to expand the light rail service to areas already serviced by city buses. The buses are most often not even close to full. The light rail never pays for itself and is not even close to capacity. Light rail systems are exponentially more expensive than buses. Proponents always point to some other city or foreign countries system and proclaim the potential for our city. Well we already have a system and it is a tax money sucking toy. Only children want more toys.

[dl3000]

Its not a toy. It moves people. you can't make more freeways so there is only one choice and that is to accommodate something other than the car, like your feet. its a matter of capacity. im sure you havent been on said buses to see how allegedly "empty" they are. light rail has a higher capacity and is immune to automobile traffic. sounds like a great deal. besides, the alignments under study are there to serve those without cars such as students at the universities and areas with nightlife that are crowded and driving is not an option if you drink. plus you may not believe this but people do commute on them even in this city. for your information, no public infrastructure and services pay for themselves. do the police forces pay for themselves? no. then why have them? they offer a service for a fee purely in tax dollars. freeways? a means to a destination. funded by: tax dollars. why would light rail be any different? its costs are merely supplemented by a fare no different than toll roads or gas tax.

[bmfarley]

I have never understood the reasoning behind peoples desire to expand the light rail service to areas already serviced by city buses. The buses are most often not even close to full. The light rail never pays for itself and is not even close to capacity. Light rail systems are exponentially more expensive than buses. Proponents always point to some other city or foreign countries system and proclaim the potential for our city. Well we already have a system and it is a tax money sucking toy. Only children want more toys.You should change your uyser name.

[bmfarley]

I agree that a train line needs to be built up through Hillcrest, but I also think a connection into Balboa Park is essential. It's not just the zoo, it's all of the museums there, plus the fact that tens of thousands of people use Balboa Park every day just as a park, and not necessarily as a tourist attraction. Besides, the line could connect up back in Mission Valley, basically completing a loop.

Aaron (Glowrock)

If a line ever goes north from downtown, and an alignment could have a station serving Balboa Park and the museums, I'd agree with you; it would be essential. However, my reasoning would be for political purposes mostly, rather than that they were sufficient regular consistent demand. I am skeptical that there would be sufficient regular demand there; Summer Saturday and Sunday afternoons when the weather is good is too small a window for demand.

If I were a benevolent dictator, I'd run a line in a subway alignment from the Harbor/Gaslamp, up 5th or 6th Avenue... all the way up to University or Washington... then turn east toward I-15 or continue into Mission Valley. At Balboa Park, I could imagine a subway station at 6th/Laurel... providing a perfect nice walk into the park and museum area.

Subway stations are looking very nice with recent designs. See these flickr images from bigbend700 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/31267310@N05/) of the

LA Metro Soto station:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/31267310@N05/sets/72157622097195247/

Soto favorite:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2530/3882476515_5c6da2b282.jpg
From Flickr, by bigbend700



LA Metro Mariachi station:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/31267310@N05/sets/72157622201234786/

My Mariachi favorite:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2432/3875891225_f6da684032.jpg.
From Flickr, by bigbend700

Check out the LA Transportation thread on page 8; here (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=171029&page=8)... for more pics of the above.

[voice of reason]

Its not a toy. It moves people. you can't make more freeways so there is only one choice and that is to accommodate something other than the car, like your feet. its a matter of capacity. im sure you havent been on said buses to see how allegedly "empty" they are. light rail has a higher capacity and is immune to automobile traffic. sounds like a great deal. besides, the alignments under study are there to serve those without cars such as students at the universities and areas with nightlife that are crowded and driving is not an option if you drink. plus you may not believe this but people do commute on them even in this city. for your information, no public infrastructure and services pay for themselves. do the police forces pay for themselves? no. then why have them? they offer a service for a fee purely in tax dollars. freeways? a means to a destination. funded by: tax dollars. why would light rail be any different? its costs are merely supplemented by a fare no different than toll roads or gas tax.

Solution.

Buy more buses.

Problem solved.

Class dismissed.

[Fusey]

light rail has a higher capacity and is immune to automobile traffic.

Except downtown where it's faster to ride a bike than take the trolley. Of course downtown San Diego has no bike lanes. :haha:

[bmfarley]

For the uninformed, light-rail costs less to operate on a per rider basis than buses.

[tdavis]

Many on here don't seem to know much about the feasibility/costs of rail in comparison to busing. I work in transit oriented development for projects around the U.S. Here are just a few of the benefits:

1. Rail lines receive more passengers than the bus routes they replace.

2. Rail lines tracks are cheaper to maintain than the roadways they displace.

3. Buses, are susceptible to potholes and height irregularities in the pavement. Rail lines ride on smooth, jointless steel rails that rarely develop bumps. The maintenance is less for rail than replacing shocks/tires on buses.

4. Mapmakers include rail lines lines on their city maps, and almost never put any bus route in ink. New investment follows the lines on the map. TOD is extremely beneficial to bringing in tax dollars to the city. Development will follow a train station, but not a bus stop. Rails don't pick up and move any time soon. Once a rail system is in place, business and investors can count on them for decades. Buses come and go.

5. The upfront costs are higher for rail and higher than buses-but that is more than made up over time in lower operating and maintenance costs. In transit you get what you pay for.

6. Once purchased (albeit at high cost) rail liness are cheaper to maintain and last a whole lot longer (case in point, rail lines discarded in the US in the '40s, have been snapped up by the Yugoslavs, and are still running). Buses have a lifespan of 9-12 years.

7. Rail lines create more walkable streets.

[IconRPCV]

Solution.

Buy more buses.

Problem solved.

Class dismissed.

I am an example of someone that would take a trolley up to Hillcrest to goto dinner or to Whole Foods or Trader Joe's to go shopping, but WOULD NOT take a bus.

I can't tell you how many ties I have been up in Hillcrest and have had too many to drink so I take a taxi home, I wished there were a trolley so that I had an alternative to that.

[kpexpress]

Many on here don't seem to know much about the feasibility/costs of rail in comparison to busing. I work in transit oriented development for projects around the U.S. Here are just a few of the benefits:

1. Rail lines receive more passengers than the bus routes they replace.

2. Rail lines tracks are cheaper to maintain than the roadways they displace.

3. Buses, are susceptible to potholes and height irregularities in the pavement. Rail lines ride on smooth, jointless steel rails that rarely develop bumps. The maintenance is less for rail than replacing shocks/tires on buses.

4. Mapmakers include rail lines lines on their city maps, and almost never put any bus route in ink. New investment follows the lines on the map. TOD is extremely beneficial to bringing in tax dollars to the city. Development will follow a train station, but not a bus stop. Rails don't pick up and move any time soon. Once a rail system is in place, business and investors can count on them for decades. Buses come and go.

5. The upfront costs are higher for rail and higher than buses-but that is more than made up over time in lower operating and maintenance costs. In transit you get what you pay for.

6. Once purchased (albeit at high cost) rail liness are cheaper to maintain and last a whole lot longer (case in point, rail lines discarded in the US in the '40s, have been snapped up by the Yugoslavs, and are still running). Buses have a lifespan of 9-12 years.

7. Rail lines create more walkable streets.

Not to mention adding more sustainable land values to transit areas. Plus rail lines are more consistent with their schedules and people tend to trust them over buses and plan accordingly.

[Filambata]

Curitiba, Brazil, has a very nice bus system that is recognized by the planning and green community all over the world as a first-class model. The link below to an article is a good read. Plus, just do a Google search on Curitiba.

http://urbanhabitat.org/node/344

[HurricaneHugo]

I work for UCSD's Shuttle Services and it's annoying to work as a dispatcher because we usually have about 5 break down each day lol.

By break down I mean they're still usable but it's recommended to take them off line for repairs.

[SDfan]

Based on my own experiences, the trolley line does feel safer, but by no means was it more dependable then the bus route I take now. They are about the same. Both have long waits at times. Both stop for one reason or another in the middle of rush hour. Both have loons annoying passangers. And if you're going to use transit anywhere in San Diego you have to be willing to give up large amounts of your time to use it. It goes against our instant mobility instincts we as San Diegans are used to with cars.

As for the coaster, its definetly more of a long distance commuter who rides. Your less likely to get a homeless man heading from Old Town to Oceanside then one whos trying to get from North Park to downtown.

As to whoever proposes a subway line in this city, I'll be more then willing to pay an extra half-cent tax to get that done. There are only so many carpool lanes you can add to the five and fifteen before there isn't any space between the two freeways left...

Can you imagine if all of our major freeways looked like the 5-805 merge? *shutter*

[kpexpress]

Imagine if the airport was moved and a large portion of bayfront land was allocated for a stadium and this was built.

http://www.archdaily.com/35207/dalian-shide-stadium-nbbj/

[dl3000]

Delete

[dl3000]

Solution.

Buy more buses.

Problem solved.

Class dismissed.

Golly, with all those buses and cars, don't you think the roads might feel a little congested? At least they would in the real world.




And yeah yeah, Fusey, the downsides of the downtown trolley segments have been discussed. But regardless, whenever a rail system runs through the core of a city, the density of stations always slow things down. Granted that is not the main issue, but it is one of the reasons.

[brantw]

Sapphire Tower at night
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2511/3929617796_22b17391e8.jpg

[brantw]

From the Top of the Hyatt
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2557/3929665483_28644b14bd.jpg

[OneMetropolis]

From the Top of the Hyatt
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2557/3929665483_28644b14bd.jpg

^^^^^^ yuck I hate those buildings. They look like two mishappend retarted pens. They're just hideous, never were they my favorite building's in SD.

[Fusey]

Sanders to push for new City Hall, other projects
Critics say pension should be key focus
By Craig Gustafson
Union-Tribune Staff Writer
2:00 a.m. September 16, 2009

SAN DIEGO — San Diego Mayor Jerry Sanders plans to push forward on major municipal projects despite naysayers who cite the recession and a projected $100 million budget deficit as insurmountable obstacles.

Sanders said he believes the city can and will build a new City Hall complex, expand the San Diego Convention Center and construct a new downtown library over the next few years.

“We cannot allow our judgment to be clouded by the defeatists who think the only response to a weak economy is to abandon our aspirations,” he said.

The mayor's economic speech yesterday came ahead of a crucial decision Friday by pension officials that will largely determine how big the city's budget deficit will be next year.

The pension board is considering changes that could relieve the city of $50 million of its $225 million projected payment into the retirement fund next year. The changes would provide short-term savings but likely result in higher payments in later years.

Several critics — including City Council members Carl DeMaio, Kevin Faulconer, Donna Frye and Todd Gloria — say the changes would repeat past problems of failing to save enough money to fund promised pensions.

Sanders referenced the importance of the pending board decision in his speech before a 300-plus crowd gathered for a San Diego County Taxpayers Association luncheon at the Town and Country Resort & Hotel.

“There has been considerable speculation about what the size of that payment will be, but whatever the amount, let me be clear: We will make our full pension payment,” he said.

The mayor has declined to weigh in on how he would prefer the board to vote, saying that past city leaders pressuring pension officials led to many of the city's money problems.

If the board does nothing, the city's annual payment will continue to consume an ever-larger piece of the city budget — as much as $318 million by fiscal 2015.

Businessman Steve Francis, who lost to Sanders in last year's election, said he found the timing of the mayor's speech bizarre.

“It is a bit baffling in light of the fact that we're facing — to his own admission — a fiscal tsunami that he didn't lay out an evacuation plan,” said Francis, who attended the speech. “We need to be talking about how we're going to solve this pension problem and not building buildings.”

Sanders has long said each of proposed projects would need to be funded without affecting the city's general fund. Methods on the table include fundraising and downtown redevelopment money for the library, and taxes aimed at the tourism industry for the convention center expansion.

DeMaio said the mayor should focus his energy elsewhere.

“To basically say the emphasis should be on three costly civic projects, rather than fixing the financial problems, as our core priority is disappointing to say the least,” he said.

Gloria said he appreciated the positive tone of Sanders' speech and agreed the city shouldn't be afraid to think big despite its money woes.

“His approach of suggesting that we are right to be optimistic about the city's future and that we must continue to dream big dreams is exactly right,” Gloria said.

Mike McDowell, board chairman of the taxpayers group, said the budget deficit next year doesn't mean progress isn't possible.

“I think it's important that we don't put our head in the sand, that we face the obstacles and the opportunities with equal vigor,” he said.
http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/sep/16/mayor-push-new-city-hall-other-projects/

[IconRPCV]

From the Top of the Hyatt
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2557/3929665483_28644b14bd.jpg

I love them. I have a fondness for anything 70's with brown glass. I know they weren't built in the 70's but they sure look like it. If nothing else they are unique and distinctive. I think they look like they are two sentinels guarding downtown.

[brantw]

Some random ones from the Hillcrest/Mission Hills area:

This one kinda reminds me of the building I live in (Treo). It kinda has a step-like design.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2583/3931373933_5e13df0c0b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3447/3932157124_19ba65a5cb.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2568/3932157484_4633d42c09.jpg

Here's a random little guy that they are just finishing up
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2642/3932157780_ff11400130.jpg

Don't know the name of these, but I like them
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2667/3932158528_2f9a18bc6f.jpg

This could be tall, sorry I don't have the name. It's somewhere on 5th.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2205/3931376445_fbd1ea5171.jpg

This one is called Mis Arbolitos. One unit per floor starting at $1.2 million, I believe.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2449/3931376727_869e4334a6.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3423/3931376977_fc59031aba.jpg

[tdavis]

The building you referenced on 5th, "could be tall" was foreclosed on over a year ago. Notice all the steel is rusted.

[Fusey]

Anyone see the giant auction banner on the top of Smart Corner?

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/1773/auction3.jpg

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/around-town/real-estate/High-Rise---Low-Price-59549987.html

[brantw]

The building you referenced on 5th, "could be tall" was foreclosed on over a year ago. Notice all the steel is rusted.

Oh wow, you're right. I wonder what they will do with that lot.

[BrandonJXN]

From the Top of the Hyatt
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2557/3929665483_28644b14bd.jpg

I love Harbor Club. I just wish they would light them up again. I remember one was lit pink and the other white but this was ages ago.

[brantw]

Metro-Work, it's a weird building. Anthology is on the bottom.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2439/3931659249_a0d42dbe42.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2542/3932441288_ba2ec8fd57.jpg

Heading south on Kettner. I like this view/area because it really makes you feel like you are headed down into the middle of all the buildings.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3484/3932442886_e41ce5db1f.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3433/3931662203_635c901d81.jpg

Allegro Towers is ugly, but massive.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3500/3932444944_539713e5bd.jpg

The back of Breeza
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3434/3932444242_f57bfe91e7.jpg

My building (Treo)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3474/3932446528_bd0512bb87.jpg

Sapphire Tower, I really love this building. I hope to live there, next.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3458/3932447476_359f65c5f7.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2440/3932446942_ba5180a39a.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2674/3931666819_2ae368fd7e.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3455/3932445206_fecb8f815c.jpg

The Grandes
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2432/3931663759_0462481137.jpg

An oldie, but goodie
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3420/3932448790_df7f863dab.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3511/3932451234_6ef0206209.jpg

Looking up Broadway
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2574/3931669195_86e226beb6.jpg

Forgot the name of this one
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3438/3932450588_6d37c94478.jpg

[brantw]

Looking back at Santa Fe Station with the Grandes in the background
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2669/3931668553_d26921c15b.jpg

Electra is huge!!!
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2501/3932449774_3a3007aa69.jpg

The new Federal Courthouse - Coming Soon! I am excited for this one!
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2482/3932451894_87354e8dfe.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3492/3931670467_7be04e3cf7.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3492/3931670853_ca3b7da00e.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2509/3932452850_5a54eb6b2e.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3529/3932453112_b99330da8c.jpg

The US Grant
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2672/3932453404_c904d7e72d.jpg

Forgot the name of this. Right next to the House of Blues. Pretty interesting architecture.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2490/3931672227_3aec0d282f.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2607/3932454268_d6296676d6.jpg

[tdavis]

Oh wow, you're right. I wonder what they will do with that lot.

It was purchased by another organization, can't remember who. My personal belief is that this lot will probably sit like this for another 2-3 years until the economy starts to bounce back fully.

[BrandonJXN]

Thank you for the pictures. SD has a very underrated skyline. Even though the 500 foot tall limit kills any sort of height, it's very clean and modern.

[brantw]

More Vantage Pointe. This thing is a beast!!!
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2670/3932455120_b022cbe2c2.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2489/3931674417_801bd23bf9.jpg

Peeking through
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3486/3932457072_4982033059.jpg

Don't know which one that is in back of Vantage, but it's one of the only couple cranes in downtown, right now.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3439/3931673699_fcf8913412.jpg

A nice shot down I forgot which street
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2651/3931674165_1510839340.jpg

This is the building with the funny looking satellite thing on top
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2491/3931674975_925c95e0a4.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3474/3931675899_db1ee99c5a.jpg

Now I'm starting to forget which building is which. Sorry I didn't keep better track.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2558/3932457384_57d4b69209.jpg

Is this the same crane? Or a different one, I forget.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2573/3931676687_051da90c58.jpg

Heading towards Cortez Hill
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3508/3931676249_e10ec8dae4.jpg

This guy is big, I like it.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2438/3931677057_6b5c5f1f3e.jpg

Not sure which one this is
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2450/3931677363_2ddbf3f006.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2594/3932459434_638d0f8de2.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2532/3931678055_b1d2a65846.jpg

An interesting town-home looking entrance
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3528/3931678405_7d42b02d6c.jpg

A new 7-11 that just opened up. I swear there are like 20, downtown now.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2510/3932462600_b0cb328480.jpg

Ended up here at Tweet Street. Very cool little park area. This was cool because I use twitter a lot. If any of you are on there you can find me @brant
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2436/3932460778_a047df3073.jpg

[Complex01]

Very nice pics. SD looks nice...

[mello]

I just noticed how nice the skyline looks from here. We need someone to go get a shot where the palm tree isn't blocking the Southern End of the skyline though. I think this is actually one of the better angles of the city. It looks dense and also has some peaks and valleys --- :cheers:

Damn palm tree :(

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y120/Jaygergon/city-data%204/IMG_8350.jpg

Pic posted from Sd Urban's thread -- San Diego a go go

[dl3000]

Looks like Loma Portal area.

[HurricaneHugo]

damn that's nice with the mountains in the background

[Fusey]

I love that view in the winter time when the mountains have snow and it's 68 down here. :D

[kpexpress]

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn60/kpexpress42/IMG_0596.jpg

View down Island with new projects going up. Stratta, Park Place, and soon TJSL.

[Fusey]

2-City Plan For New Chargers Stadium In Discussion

SAN DIEGO -- The effort to keep the San Diego Chargers in the San Diego area might depend on two cities teaming up, 10News' Michael Chen reported.

Sources informed Chen that the cities of Oceanside and Escondido are discussing a partnership that would solve some of the biggest hurdles -- finding enough space for both a new stadium and a mixed-used development that could help the team fund the stadium.

The proposed plan would have one city host the stadium while the other city would build the mixed-use development to aid in the funding.

Sources told Chen that in exchange, one city would receive revenues from the other and the team.

Oceanside's Centre City Golf Course will be revived by the city council, sources told Chen, as a possible stadium site after it is placed on the agenda for an October session.

The Chargers will take a look at Escondido and the 17-acre site of its swap meet.

Next week, the team will begin meeting with developers to discuss specific details in order to see if the plan is doable.

Mark Fabiani, Special Counsel for the Chargers, said, "It sounds promising. While it is an advantage for the projects to be connected, it is possible to divide it. The key will be generating the needed revenue to privately finance a stadium."
http://www.10news.com/news/21073103/detail.html

I really hope this is something besides one of the random ideas that get thrown around for a new stadium every month. We'll have to wait and see how this one plays out.

[Derek]

Go Escondido, go!

[HurricaneHugo]

On the other hand...the City of Industry just cleared another hurdle...

http://laist.com/2009/09/24/nfl_stadium_in_los_angeles_industry.php

[kpexpress]

Just wondering if anyone knows what the project that is under construction in Cortez Hill is. It's located just North of Aria. Looks like a small project. Anyone?

[staplesla]

Just wondering if anyone knows what the project that is under construction in Cortez Hill is. It's located just North of Aria. Looks like a small project. Anyone?

Is this the area you are talking about?

http://www.ccdc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=projects.projectDetail&propertyID=645

[kpexpress]

Is this the area you are talking about?

http://www.ccdc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=projects.projectDetail&propertyID=645

That looks like it! doesn't look like it can have that many units though. be interesting to see what happens. glad to see some city dev going on though.

[kpexpress]

If you had three wishes for SD and they could come true instantly, what would you wish for? What would you have changed and why?

everyone weigh in, that means you mr. voiceofreason.

[Derek]

1. Chargers stadium.
2. the Marines leaving Miramar and having it be converted into an international airport.
3. Extend the Trolley lines to the airport (up to Miramar if wish 2 came true), lines running all the way to the Escondido Sprinter station with stops at Rancho Bernardo, Sabre Springs, North County Fair mall, Scripps Ranch, and Mira Mesa, all underground. Extend the trolley line through Mira Mesa (underground) to UTC to connect to the Mid-Coast extension (which also needs to be built). Trolley extended up 5th Avenue to Hillcrest (underground). Pretty much a huge underground Trolley network. :D


Balboa Park, Hillcrest, Pt. Loma, OB, PB, La Jolla, UTC, North Park, Golden Hill, etc. :P

[staplesla]

1. Chargers stadium.
2. the Marines leaving Miramar and having it be converted into an international airport.
3. Extend the Trolley lines to the airport (up to Miramar if wish 2 came true), lines running all the way to the Escondido Sprinter station with stops at Rancho Bernardo, Sabre Springs, North County Fair mall, Scripps Ranch, and Mira Mesa, all underground. Extend the trolley line through Mira Mesa (underground) to UTC to connect to the Mid-Coast extension (which also needs to be built). Trolley extended up 5th Avenue to Hillcrest (underground). Pretty much a huge underground Trolley network. :D


Balboa Park, Hillcrest, Pt. Loma, OB, PB, La Jolla, UTC, North Park, Golden Hill, etc. :P

Mine are the exact same.

[Fusey]

I agree with the first two on Derek's list, but my 3rd wish would be the removal of all hobos and transport them to some shithole, like Los Angeles (but a better transit system would be a close fourth).

[OneMetropolis]

I agree with the first two on Derek's list, but my 3rd wish would be the removal of all hobos and transport them to some shithole, like Los Angeles (but a better transit system would be a close fourth).

LA is no shithole and those stupid fanciful wishes of yours are not going to come true anyway so deal with it. The airport will allways be small and crappy and non-expansive and will allways lack international grandeur. It will allways keep downtown from reaching up to the heavens and from expanding beyond it's bondries. The stupid trolley will never expand. While LA is building more subways the trolley expansion will still be going through minor stages of getting approved. The Chargers will most likely leave it's allready obvious, chula vista shunned them Oceanside dosen't want them and Escondido is just a desprerate move that will amount to even more failure. Just face it, I rather see Chargers in LA than this city.

All those shots/pictures of downtown were dull too, they were just boring condo buildings and hotels nothing really to be proud of or admire, no real architecture just generic glass pladding and no real feel. I getting tired of this city so many praise it when there's nothing really wrothy to be praised here. LA right now is headed in a great direction and it's only going to get better for LA. Unlike this city where soon it's appeal will colapse on it's self caving in on it's own pretentiousness and downtown will be too touristy and will lack a real feel like the rest of the city.

[Fusey]

LA is no shithole and those stupid fanciful wishes of yours are not going to come true anyway so deal with it.

It was a joke in regards to another thread. In the meantime, if you love LA so much, you should probably move there and stop being such a whiney bitch.

[OneMetropolis]

It was a joke in regards to another thread. In the meantime, if you love LA so much, you should probably move there and stop being such a whiney bitch.

I am just giving credit were it's due, and maybe i will move there. Beside this thread needs some pessimistic views anyway everyone on here is to starry eyed and enthusiastic.

[tdavis]

LA is no shithole and those stupid fanciful wishes of yours are not going to come true anyway so deal with it. The airport will allways be small and crappy and non-expansive and will allways lack international grandeur. It will allways keep downtown from reaching up to the heavens and from expanding beyond it's bondries. The stupid trolley will never expand. While LA is building more subways the trolley expansion will still be going through minor stages of getting approved. The Chargers will most likely leave it's allready obvious, chula vista shunned them Oceanside dosen't want them and Escondido is just a desprerate move that will amount to even more failure. Just face it, I rather see Chargers in LA than this city.

All those shots/pictures of downtown were dull too, they were just boring condo buildings and hotels nothing really to be proud of or admire, no real architecture just generic glass pladding and no real feel. I getting tired of this city so many praise it when there's nothing really wrothy to be praised here. LA right now is headed in a great direction and it's only going to get better for LA. Unlike this city where soon it's appeal will colapse on it's self caving in on it's own pretentiousness and downtown will be too touristy and will lack a real feel like the rest of the city.

I sure as hell hope you don't serve on any development or transit committees. Your lack of vision and foresight is appalling.

[Derek]

Tell us what you really think douchebag. :D

[Derek]

The question was if you could do anything, what would you do?



So yeah, it is wishful thinking on our part. God forbid we have hopes and dreams right?


Read the fucking post next time or get the fuck out.

[bmfarley]

If you had three wishes for SD and they could come true instantly, what would you wish for? What would you have changed and why?

everyone weigh in, that means you mr. voiceofreason.


1. Relocate the airport out of downtown

2. Improve the rail infrastructure (grade separate downtown heavy rail, bring high-speed rail to Santa Fe Depot in a tunnel, relocate the C Street Trolley beneath Broadway, expand the Trolley network to Hillcrest and University Avenue).

3. Have a democratic visionary leadership in charge of local politics

[voice of reason]

You negated your points 1&2 by wishing for a democratic (you didnt capitalize, so I assume you didnt mean Democrat Party) leadership. A democratic leadership by definition would represent the wishes of the majority of citizens and your ideas are extreme fringe concepts, not cost effective and not wanted by the majority.

When dreaming utopian dreams, it would be wise to consider that the state, county and city are broke. Why add more costs and institute systems that would require further subsidies?

Keep dreamin......

[Fusey]

I am just giving credit were it's due, and maybe i will move there. Beside this thread needs some pessimistic views anyway everyone on here is to starry eyed and enthusiastic.

Mammone, da quando sei caduta in moto sei un po'sciroccata. :koko:

[dl3000]

LA is no shithole and those stupid fanciful wishes of yours are not going to come true anyway so deal with it. The airport will allways be small and crappy and non-expansive and will allways lack international grandeur. It will allways keep downtown from reaching up to the heavens and from expanding beyond it's bondries. The stupid trolley will never expand. While LA is building more subways the trolley expansion will still be going through minor stages of getting approved. The Chargers will most likely leave it's allready obvious, chula vista shunned them Oceanside dosen't want them and Escondido is just a desprerate move that will amount to even more failure. Just face it, I rather see Chargers in LA than this city.

All those shots/pictures of downtown were dull too, they were just boring condo buildings and hotels nothing really to be proud of or admire, no real architecture just generic glass pladding and no real feel. I getting tired of this city so many praise it when there's nothing really wrothy to be praised here. LA right now is headed in a great direction and it's only going to get better for LA. Unlike this city where soon it's appeal will colapse on it's self caving in on it's own pretentiousness and downtown will be too touristy and will lack a real feel like the rest of the city.

Sounds like trolling to me.


And Voice of Reason, if you think it is the wishes of all the citizens of San Diego to stagnate in the status quo, this thread would not exist.

As for my wishes, it would be somewhere between Derek's and bmfarley's. In short, new airport, expanded and new transit, underground rail downtown, charger's stadium, new leadership.

[voice of reason]

Students,
In our last lesson we were discussing democratic representation as it applies to San Diego City government.
We learned that in a democracy, which we have a modified version of in the U.S. The citizens voice their desires and then elect representatives to government who kinda-sorta institute programs that represent their constituents. In our imperfect world this is how it works.
There may be some pipe-smokers on the internet who want to spend on things that make perfect sense to them, but not to the majority of citizens. These people cant understand that the things they want are only wanted by them. These people are called kooks and it is better to ignore them.

Class dismissed.

[IconRPCV]

1. New stadium for the Chargers somewhere in the county.
2. An international airport at MiraMar
3. A trolley system that actually went places I do besides the occasional football game so I could leave my car in the garage more often.

[bmfarley]

Students,
In our last lesson we were discussing democratic representation as it applies to San Diego City government.
We learned that in a democracy, which we have a modified version of in the U.S. The citizens voice their desires and then elect representatives to government who kinda-sorta institute programs that represent their constituents. In our imperfect world this is how it works.
There may be some pipe-smokers on the internet who want to spend on things that make perfect sense to them, but not to the majority of citizens. These people cant understand that the things they want are only wanted by them. These people are called kooks and it is better to ignore them.

Class dismissed.
Please consider a course in "Reading Comprehension". The premise of the post was to consider three wishes. You failed, go back to school.

[kpexpress]

Students,
In our last lesson we were discussing democratic representation as it applies to San Diego City government.
We learned that in a democracy, which we have a modified version of in the U.S. The citizens voice their desires and then elect representatives to government who kinda-sorta institute programs that represent their constituents. In our imperfect world this is how it works.
There may be some pipe-smokers on the internet who want to spend on things that make perfect sense to them, but not to the majority of citizens. These people cant understand that the things they want are only wanted by them. These people are called kooks and it is better to ignore them.

Class dismissed.

sounds like you just returned from a tea party

[kpexpress]

late night pics of the Harbor Drive Pedestrian Bridge. Enjoy.

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn60/kpexpress42/DSC05649.jpg

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn60/kpexpress42/DSC05646.jpg

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn60/kpexpress42/DSC05669.jpg

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn60/kpexpress42/DSC05670.jpg

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn60/kpexpress42/DSC05675.jpg

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn60/kpexpress42/DSC05651.jpg

[Fusey]

Beside this thread needs some pessimistic views anyway everyone on here is to starry eyed and enthusiastic.

San Diego losing year-round cruise ship
Carnival shifts home port to Alabama for 2,052-passenger Elation
By Lori Weisberg
Union-Tribune Staff Writer
2:00 a.m. September 28, 2009

Come spring, San Diego will lose its only year-round cruise ship and along with it a bevy of bargain excursions to Mexico. Chalk it up as another casualty of the economy.

Carnival Cruise Lines has decided to relocate its 2,052-passenger ship Elation from its home port in San Diego to Mobile, Ala. There it will cruise to Mexican destinations, including Cozumel, off the coast of the Yucatan Peninsula for four- and five-day itineraries.

Although heavy discounting of the trips originating in San Diego was drawing passengers, the revenue fell short of Carnival's expectations for a year-round cruise program, said spokeswoman Jennifer de la Cruz.

“How much revenue we generate on a ship is a huge factor in where we base a ship and in what programs we operate,” de la Cruz said. “This program has been underperforming over a substantial period of time. While onboard revenue is important, more important is the pricing we get for the ticket.”

California's battered economy, which has cut deeply into consumers' willingness to spend money, especially on travel, has driven business down, de la Cruz said.

The cruise line will continue to operate its Spirit ship on a seasonal basis in San Diego. That ship makes eight-day trips to Mexico between October and March.

“The shorter cruises draw mostly drive-in business versus fly-in, and the business we get from the state where the ship is based is very critical to a program's success, so given the state of the economy, particularly in California, we think that's likely a big factor here,” de la Cruz said.

San Diego Unified Port District official Rita Vandergaw said another factor was the sharp drop-off in travel to Mexico, which has suffered from the swine flu scare and an escalation of drug-related violence in Baja California.

The planned departure of the Elation by the end of April is a financial blow to San Diego, given the millions of dollars generated by visiting passengers and the cruise line itself.

A 2005 study conducted by the Port District found that each cruise ship contributes $2 million to the economy. Multiply that by the 78 stops the Elation makes in San Diego during a year, and that's nearly $160 million in lost revenue, said Vandergaw, who manages the cruise program for the Port of San Diego.

“I don't know if people understand how much of an impact it is,” she said. “The passengers spend a lot of money when they're here, and the cruise line spends a lot of money in the area through jobs and services that they purchase, like the longshoreman jobs, the taxicabs, the shuttle services, the suppliers that provide goods to the terminal, the truckers, the florists.

“It's extremely disappointing.”

A bit of good news was the debut last week of Royal Caribbean's Radiance of the Seas, an eight-year-old, 2,500-passenger ship that will be making about 30 round-trip cruises to Mexico from San Diego, starting with four- and five-night trips to the Mexican Riviera through Nov. 16, said spokeswoman Lyan Sierra-Caro.

After that, the ship also will offer longer itineraries of nine to 12 nights through May to such destinations as Acapulco, Puerto Vallarta and Mazatlan.

“We started this year to be year-round from Los Angeles, so we thought it was important to have another West Coast option with a different itinerary,” Sierra-Caro said. “San Diego is a great source market for us, and it's an easy destination for people to fly into.”

With the departure of the Elation, the port estimates that the number of ships coming into San Diego for long and short cruises will fall to about 200 over the course of a year. Other cruise lines that pull into San Diego include Holland America and Celebrity.

The schedule for the next fiscal year has yet to be finalized, Vandergaw said.

Given the port's dogged efforts to attract new cruise lines, it's a shame to have lost the Elation, said Joe Terzi, president of the San Diego Convention & Visitors Bureau.

“When passengers get off the ships, they're down in the Gaslamp, in the restaurants, Horton Plaza mall. It's a good economic engine,” Terzi said. “It just breathes more life into the waterfront and brings more businesses, so it's something we don't want to see disappear from San Diego.”

That isn't about to happen, said Vandergaw, who is hoping a new $28 million cruise ship terminal now under construction at the Broadway Pier will add some bayside appeal for San Diego.

It will allow one cruise ship to be berthed there, but it will be a far-better space for accommodating cruise lines and their passengers, she said. Vandergaw's hope is that once the building is completed by the end of next year, the Port District would be able to start work on upgrading the much-larger B Street Pier, though a plan has not been approved nor has financing been lined up, she said.

The Port District earlier this year was courting the Walt Disney Co. in hopes of persuading it to bring its planned West Coast cruise operations to San Diego. The Disney Cruise Line ultimately opted for the Los Angeles area.

“You have to have facilities that meet the cruise lines' standards, and the lines have said we don't meet their standards,” Vandergaw said. “Carnival loaned us $12 million to improve our facilities to meet their standards, and we still have a ways to go.

“Losing this business (from Carnival), I think, is cyclical, and it happens when economies contract. I'm confident we'll have the business back.”
http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/sep/28/san-diego-losing-year-round-cruise-ship/