SAN DIEGO | Boom Rundown, Vol. 2

[Quixote]

I was impressed by all of the projects under construction but I had to wonder why people will want to live there.

The same reason why people choose to live in other downtowns...

The Amenities.

[Urban Sky]

March 22, 2007 – Moderate Year Predicted for San Diego’s Office Market
Article Date: 03/22/07

BSS Consulting

Full Story:
San Diego County’s office market is poised for moderate activity over the coming year, thanks in part to slower but still positive employment growth and a stable foundation in professional services that supports the region’s diversified economy. According to the latest research from Burnham Real Estate Services’ 2007 Outlook report, San Diego office net absorption should stabilize at 2 msf annually over the next two years, up slightly from 1.8 msf in 2006 and down from 2.5 msf of absorption in 2005.

“Companies in general are more cautious than a year ago, now weighing costs carefully in light of significantly higher rental rates for Class A properties in preferred locations,” said Ron Miller, Senior Vice President with Burnham Real Estate. “In 2007, we expect to see some movement to more conservatively priced Class B space as price conscious companies recognize that refurbished second generation space is a viable alternative to more expensive options.”

“Developers have confidence in the long-term outlook for the San Diego office market, and the 3.9 msf of space currently under construction represents an 11-year high,” adds Miller. “Approximately 3.1 msf of this space will complete this year, most of which is speculative.

“Although there is an additional 4.5 msf of space planned to start construction over the next two years, we believe a temporary oversupply of space in 2007 may cause some of these projects to be postponed,” he said. “As a result, we expect vacancy on total inventory including owner-user buildings to increase from 10.3 percent to 12.4 percent in 2007, due primarily to the new construction.”

The Burnham Outlook report shows average countywide office rental rates currently stand at $2.15 per square foot, with Class A properties in premiere markets like Del Mar Heights and UTC approaching $4.00 per square foot. “Even Class A product in markets like Mission Valley are seeing moderate rate increases approaching $3.00 per square foot,” Miller said. “We project that average countywide office rents will increase 4 percent to $2.24 by this year-end and by just under 1 percent to $2.26 by the close of 2008.”

San Diego office acquisitions have slowed slightly due to the fact that inventory for sale has declined, however, Mark Wayne, Senior Vice President with Burnham Real Estate, noted that the appetite for all office product types is very strong, particularly by institutional investors who recognize the region’s long-term investment appeal. “Properties continue to trade at record-high prices, though there is an increased focus on current and projected property performance,” he said.

In 2006, GE/Arden Realty, The Irvine Group, Shidler Group and AEW Capital Management were just a few investors making value-add plays. “In 2007, we expect to see an increase in office buildings offered for sale by REITs acquired by private companies, a trend that continues to have strong momentum,” Wayne said.

According to Burnham Real Estate’s Jennifer Gallivan, the Broadway 655 tower (recently renamed Advanced Equities Plaza) in downtown San Diego has been listed for sale with multiple investment groups underwriting the offering which is expected to generate final pricing above $500 per square foot.

“The tower has achieved 82 percent occupancy since its completion in 2005 and is one of just two new high-rises completed in downtown in the past 14 years,” she said. “The Irvine Company, which has purchased six downtown high-rises over the past four years, continues to pursue opportunities, as evidenced by its recent acquisition of the Bosa site on the northeast corner of Broadway and Pacific Highway for another office tower.”

Generally speaking, Gallivan said that downtown San Diego will be stable in 2007, with vacancy rising slightly to 12 percent when Cisterra’s DiamondView Tower at PETCO Park is completed in the second quarter. “Older downtown buildings continue to be cost-effective alternatives to newer Class A space where rates are now topping $3 per square foot,” she said. “450 B Street will be a very competitive Class B option in 2007, with extensive renovations about to start and pricing below the competitive set.”

The Burnham report projects that average asking rents downtown are expected to increase 10 percent over the next two years, rising from $2.60 to $2.86 per square foot.

UTC’s long-term investment potential is clearly apparent with two recent headline-making acquisitions. “In the biggest leveraged buyout in history, Blackstone Group LP won a bidding contest for Equity Office, UTC’s major landlord, for $39 bil,” Wayne said. “This group of properties is now being sold to The Irvine Company. Additionally, Morgan Stanley Real Estate purchased Glenborough Realty, who owns The Aventine in UTC, for $1.9 bil.”

Burnham research shows that low-rise flex office space in Eastgate made up all of UTC’s 56.2k sf of positive net absorption in 2006. In Eastgate, Qualcomm signed two leases totaling over $13 mil for 107.6k sf of space, and Amylin Pharmaceuticals signed an $11.3 mil lease for 53.8k sf of space. Pharmaceutical Research Associates signed a $9.94 mil lease for 25.6k sf of space in traditional Class A UTC product at University Pacific Centre.

Wayne says that there is about 400k sf of new office space under construction in UTC. Projects include Hines Development’s 340k sf La Jolla Commons office project, which will be complemented with a W Hotel and a high-rise condominium project; and Carr America/Blackstone’s 45k sf SR-zoned La Jolla Commons Pavilion.

“Current average UTC asking rents of $3.20 per square foot are expected to increase by 4.6 percent to $3.35 per square foot in 2008,” Wayne said. “Class A space, should increase from $3.50 per square foot to $3.66 over the same period.”

In Del Mar Heights, sustained strong demand and limited available supply has generated a high volume of leasing activity in this popular submarket. Several premiere projects came on line in 2006 and big national law firms were quick to lock in space. Baker & McKenzie LLP signed a $14.9 mil lease for 28.9k sf in Plaza Del Mar III; Sheppard Mullin Richter & Hampton LLP signed a $27 mil lease for 54.2k sf in Paseo Del Mar; and Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman LLP signed a $12.2 mil lease for 25.5k sf, also in Paseo Del Mar.

“Some of the highest rents in the county were realized on these transactions and asking rates for Class A space in this premier submarket are approaching $4.00 per square foot,” said Wayne. “Overall average asking rents of $3.35 per square foot are expected to increase 1.5 percent to $3.40 per square foot in 2008.”

The 2007 Burnham report shows nearly 900k sf of new office space under way in the I-15 Corridor with more in the pipeline. “Notable projects include the nearly complete 108.8k sf Pinnacle Executive Center in Rancho Bernardo and the 150.7k sf Scripps Health building in Carmel Mountain Ranch,” said Tom van Betten, Vice President with Burnham Real Estate. “Additionally, Jay Paul Company plans to construct up to 3.2 msf of Class A office space on the 105-acre site they purchased in 2006, which includes The Summit and the former Sony picture tube facility.”

Fourth quarter 2006 sales transactions included Embarcadero Capital Partners’ acquisition of the 244k sf Scripps Corporate Plaza; General Atomics’ acquisition of the 151k sf Bernardo Technology Center; and Transwestern Investment Company’s acquisition of the 111.5k sf Plaza at Scripps Northridge project. “In the second quarter of 2006, LBA purchased a single-tenant 110k sf building after negotiating a buyout with the tenant, and is now marketing the building on a multi-tenant basis under the new name of Willow Creek Corporate Center,” van Betten said.

In 2006, Intel vacated three buildings, but tenant move-ins elsewhere within the submarket helped offset the negative 40.1k sf of net absorption in 2006. Two of the former Intel buildings were purchased by Kilroy Realty and are now being marketed under the name of Evening Creek Corporate Center.

“Current average I-15 Corridor asking rents over all office product classes of $2.17 per square foot are expected to increase 5 percent to $2.27 per square foot in 2008,” van Betten said.

According to Wayne, several high-profile construction projects in Kearny Mesa are helping to demonstrate the submarket’s repositioning as a significant development/redevelopment epicenter for high-end office and medical product in San Diego. “Projects under way include Class A, B+ and medical space, the latter of which is popular due to the proximity to Sharp Hospital,” he said.

Sunroad Centrum, Phase 1, the first of three office towers planned in San Diego Spectrum, a 1 msfmaster-planned campus, may deliver in summer 2007. The tower is 12 stories tall and totals 295k sf. Other projects include Spectrum Corporate Plaza, a two-building 130k sf project; and Cabrillo Medical Center, a three-story 31k sf Class A medical office building.

“Average Kearny Mesa asking rents of $1.85 per square foot are expected to increase 5.4 percent to $1.95 per square foot in 2008,” Wayne said.

According to Miller, Mission Valley is beginning to see a flight from quality as tenants look to avoid the increasing rental rates for newer Class A properties, which are reaching nearly $3.00 per square foot.

“Class B and B+ space is priced approximately 15 to 20 percent less per square foot and landlords are maintaining the buildings in a first-class, well-kept, clean and refurbished basis to capture those tenants who will not pay the higher Class A rates,” Miller said. “In 2006, Mission Valley saw a substantial number of deals recorded among all classes and size ranges thanks to steady growth among insurance and financial companies, law firms and professional service firms. In addition, Mission Valley’s centrality and amenity base continues to draw tenants from other submarkets such as Downtown and Kearny Mesa.”

Some notable deals in 2006 include RSM McGladrey (22.5k sf), Sundt Construction (15.3k sf) and Xerox (10.2k sf). Miller projects that average asking rents over all office product classes of $1.99 per square foot are expected to increase 5.5 percent to $2.10 per square foot in 2008.

Sorrento Mesa remains the county’s hottest office market to-date with 1.23 msf of net absorption in 2006 – the highest of any San Diego County submarket. The majority of this positive absorption was due to Qualcomm’s move into its new Class A, 10- and 12-story high rises totaling 990k sf, as well as Gen-Probe’s move into its new 291k sf building.

In the largest San Diego lease transaction of 2006, Cardinal Health signed a 10-year 318k sf lease for a Kilroy build-to-suit and neighboring 93k sf building. Other activity includes Turner Construction (20.5k sf) and Altera Corporation (28.5k sf). The Active Network, Kintera, Novatel Wireless and Parexel International also committed to leases or expansions totaling over 125k sf of space last year. Looking forward, average asking rents of $2.09 per square foot are expected to increase 7.6 percent to $2.25 per square foot in 2008.

“Sorrento Mesa’s development pipeline will continue to be very active in 2007,” Miller said. “In addition to the recently completed 145k sf Pacific Center III, Kilroy’s 318k sf Cardinal Health building is well under way, and Maguire’s 12-story 317k sf San Diego Tech Center building is scheduled to break ground in the second quarter of 2007.”

Carlsbad leads the county in new construction with nearly 600k sf under way and over 500k sf completed in the last year. Office properties completed include Ocean Ridge (75k sf), Kelly Corporate Center IV ( 75.2k sf), Centerpointe Plaza (100k sf), Aston Corporate Center (60k sf) and most recently the Concourse One (75k sf).

“Small buildings for sale and build-to-suit opportunities are either available or under construction in Bressi Ranch Corporate Center, Palomar Oaks North, and Carlsbad ForumRaceway,” said John Hoffmann, Senior Vice President in Burnham Real Estate’s Carlsbad office. “As a result, Carlsbad vacancy is likely to top that of other submarkets as the new inventory takes time to absorb. Over 50 percent of the overall vacancy will be in new, shell buildings.”

2006 Carlsbad leases included JPI Development Services (16.6k sf), Altium Inc. (16.9k sf), Catalina Restaurant Group (14.4k sf) and Yahoo Inc (18.5k sf).

“Average asking rents are $2.78 per square foot for Class A office buildings,” Hoffmann said. “Average rents for Class A and B space combined are $2.37 per square foot and are expected to increase 8 percent to $2.55 per square foot in 2008.”

[Urban Sky]

:previous:
Bottom line is: Downtown San Diego is never going to experience the kind of growth they would like to see if they can't offer more competitive pricing on office space. Places like UTC, Sorrento Mesa and even Carlsbad are offering companies lower prices and custom office solutions...Downtown SD needs to figure out some kind of incentive that is going to lure companies in.

[Derek]

^like hot secretaries;)

[sandiegodweller]

The same reason why people choose to live in other downtowns...

The Amenities.
That's my point. What ammenities exist near Staples? Waterfront?Shopping? Recreation? Parks? Museums? Entertainment (besides Staples)?

Most of the urban renewal currently underway in other cities includes a walkable district. I don't think that the area surrounding Staples qualifies. It may sometime in the future but right now it looks like they are trying to force it by building a bunch of mid-rise condos.

The projects will probably sell ok since they have a population of 10+ million in the greater LA area to market to.

You have to give Southern Californian's a reason to move back to the downtowns. I think that Anaheim will suffer trying to get people to populate the area near Anaheim Stadium because there isn't really anything there that creates a sense of community.

[Urban Sky]

That's my point. What ammenities exist near Staples? Waterfront?Shopping? Recreation? Parks? Museums? Entertainment (besides Staples)?

Most of the urban renewal currently underway in other cities includes a walkable district. I don't think that the area surrounding Staples qualifies. It may sometime in the future but right now it looks like they are trying to force it by building a bunch of mid-rise condos.

The projects will probably sell ok since they have a population of 10+ million in the greater LA area to market to.

You have to give Southern Californian's a reason to move back to the downtowns. I think that Anaheim will suffer trying to get people to populate the area near Anaheim Stadium because there isn't really anything there that creates a sense of community.

ive been a few places and ive got to say that for a downtown area, San Diego is more "walkable" than the average city. i lived down there for two years and really, you never have to leave as long as you work down there. everything you could ever want is there. every street has at least ONE place that is ped-friendly

[Derek]

^and we have good eats;)

[Urban Sky]

^and we have good eats;)

i think some people have no idea how awesome DTSD is...

[sandiegodweller]

i think some people have no idea how awesome DTSD is...
I am a huge homer for urban living and I love living in DTSD. I actually worked with BOSA on the acquisition of their Orange County project (Marquee at Park Place). They were very specific to only look at areas that already had ammenities. Even though the Irvine site seemed a little sterile, they were sold on it when they had trouble finding a parking spot during an average weekday lunchtime. This told them that the site was a place that people would like to work, shop, eat. They wouldn't have to artificially create it.

[Urban Sky]

Downtown San Diego's got everything already. and if there is anything they are lacking, its being created or will be soon.

[Derek]

^i heard an Active is coming to DTSD soon...

[sandiegodweller]

Downtown San Diego's got everything already. and if there is anything they are lacking, its being created or will be soon.
It is kinda like being on vacation. We walk from Petco Park past the Convention Center, through the Marriott Marina to Seaport Village and the Midway all of the time. It is great. I love seeing different groups of conventioneers in town every week.

With the Padres starting up this week, all of our friends are calling to make plans to come down for Opening Day.

[BrandonJXN]

That's my point. What ammenities exist near Staples? Waterfront?Shopping? Recreation? Parks? Museums? Entertainment (besides Staples)?

Most of the urban renewal currently underway in other cities includes a walkable district. I don't think that the area surrounding Staples qualifies. It may sometime in the future but right now it looks like they are trying to force it by building a bunch of mid-rise condos.

The projects will probably sell ok since they have a population of 10+ million in the greater LA area to market to.

You have to give Southern Californian's a reason to move back to the downtowns. I think that Anaheim will suffer trying to get people to populate the area near Anaheim Stadium because there isn't really anything there that creates a sense of community.

There is alot to DTLA than just the area around Staples. Just as there is more to DTSD than to Petco. You can look at the LA Project thread and see what's going on. Both Staples and Petco were HUGE at turning around both LA and SD (Though Staples is older..it was built in 1999).

[sandiegodweller]

^i heard an Active is coming to DTSD soon...
They are taking space in The Legend I think.

Adidas might have made a mistake opening north of Broadway on Fifth. They would get more synergy being south near Quiksilver, Puma, G-Star, and Volcom.

[Derek]

They are taking space in The Legend I think.


nice:tup:


i love Street Machine though...now if we could only get a Sun Diego downtown...

[Urban Sky]

There is alot to DTLA than just the area around Staples. Just as there is more to DTSD than to Petco. You can look at the LA Project thread and see what's going on. Both Staples and Petco were HUGE at turning around both LA and SD (Though Staples is older..it was built in 1999).

petco is COMPLETELY transforming all of downtown...its not isolated at all. San Diego is booming like no other time in history because of it too.

[sandiegodweller]

nice:tup:


i love Street Machine though...now if we could only get a Sun Diego downtown...
Sun Diego seems more like a Horton Plaza tenant to me. I like the look of the boutique shops like Adidas. I just think that Adidas is too far off the beaten path right now.

As I rethink it, Street Machine and Adidas are not actually north of Broadway (across from House of Blues), they are just south. That block is still kinda sketchy.

[Urban Sky]

im liking the way the street level retail is shaping up in downtown. i only wish they would obtain and keep more independant shops that area more unique. it gives the area flavor, but as downtown becomes more popular, rent goes up and makes it harder for those businesses to stay competitive.

[Derek]

yeah, just south, and its very sketchy...it just needs a touch up...thats all...

[BrandonJXN]

petco is COMPLETELY transforming all of downtown...its not isolated at all. San Diego is booming like no other time in history because of it too.

I never said it wasn't.

[Urban Sky]

well, at the other end of the spectrum from what i just said, there are some independents along broadway that we could afford to lose....like some of those crappy convinient stores...barf!

[Urban Sky]

I never said it wasn't.

oh, i know. im just saying that i think there is a slight difference in the comparison. ill admit i dont know as much as i should about LA development as i should before i say this, but i think Petco is doing more for SD than Staples did for LA...

[Derek]

^Payless is in a strange spot, too

[Urban Sky]

^Payless is in a strange spot, too

yeh, that whole area of stores right there...im ready to see those go bye bye....or at least get a serious make over. along with the stores along C street by the trolley.

[Derek]

C Street is supposed to be getting a revitilization...but i havent heard much about it :shrug:

[sandiegodweller]

There is alot to DTLA than just the area around Staples. Just as there is more to DTSD than to Petco. You can look at the LA Project thread and see what's going on. Both Staples and Petco were HUGE at turning around both LA and SD (Though Staples is older..it was built in 1999).
I hope all of the projects are successful. DTLA is a huge area and I am sure that several new neighborhoods will be created over time. Hopefully, they can create some ambiance.

My point is that besides Staples, DTLA has had the Coliseum, the Sports Arena, the convention center, USC campus, actual 70+ story skyscrapers and several other economic engines working on it for 50+ years and it is still trying to successfully incorporate residential projects into the mix.

[Derek]

^i like your avatar:tup:

[sandiegodweller]

C Street is supposed to be getting a revitilization...but i havent heard much about it :shrug:
The California Theatre building is the key to that area but it needs to be retrofitted and the costs are prohibitive. It has been on the market for $9 million for the past few years.

[BrandonJXN]

oh, i know. im just saying that i think there is a slight difference in the comparison. ill admit i dont know as much as i should about LA development as i should before i say this, but i think Petco is doing more for SD than Staples did for LA...

I'll agree with you in saying that Petco is doing more for SD than Staples did for LA. However, the area of downtown LA that Staples is located in (South Park) is a hotspot for development. So that fact will change.: http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h61/11jp/dtla/south.jpg

There are also many many many new restraunts opening or about to open all throught downtown LA. Downtown LA is showing signs of life. Hundreds of old buildings are being turned into lofts/condo's, and the homeless situation is slowly being addressed. A HUGE drug ring was exposed and destroyed a few weeks ago and already a sharp decrease has been seen. We still have a way to go but progress is progress.

[Derek]

The California Theatre building is the key to that area but it needs to be retrofitted and the costs are prohibitive. It has been on the market for $9 million for the past few years.

that dump should just be bulldozed...9 mil?!:shrug:

[Urban Sky]

C Street is supposed to be getting a revitilization...but i havent heard much about it :shrug:

yeah, im just hoping the stores get revitalized while theyre at it.

as far as i know, the C Street project is still in the works....CCDC says that a "Master Plan" will be done by 2007...does that mean that the plans will be done? or the entire project?

i think its pretty cool that they got S.O.M. to do it!

[sandiegodweller]

oh, i know. im just saying that i think there is a slight difference in the comparison. ill admit i dont know as much as i should about LA development as i should before i say this, but i think Petco is doing more for SD than Staples did for LA...
You would be surpised how much activity is sprouting up around Staples. It probably rivals or exceeds Petco. Hopefully, they can make it succesful.

[Urban Sky]

The California Theatre building is the key to that area but it needs to be retrofitted and the costs are prohibitive. It has been on the market for $9 million for the past few years.

yeah, ive called the sales office to try and find info out about this several times, but they were very reluctant to give me any information.

i do think they they will be able to move forward without doing anything with the California Theater. I know it's an eyesore, but there is a LOT more wrong with C Street other than the California Theater.

[sandiegodweller]

that dump should just be bulldozed...9 mil?!:shrug:
It's historic.

[Derek]

yeah, im just hoping the stores get revitalized while theyre at it.

as far as i know, the C Street project is still in the works....CCDC says that a "Master Plan" will be done by 2007...does that mean that the plans will be done? or the entire project?

i think its pretty cool that they got S.O.M. to do it!

im guessing that just plans will be done...cuz that place hasnt changed much in a few years...

[Derek]

It's historic.

sarcastically speaking, of course;)

[Urban Sky]

You would be surpised how much activity is sprouting up around Staples. It probably rivals or exceeds Petco. Hopefully, they can make it succesful.

okay, well, i was talking about on a more "per capita" basis. you have to remember that LA is way bigger than SD, so SDs seemingly "little" growth when compared to LA is actually HUGE for the city.

I hate to be a bummer because it seems you like talking about LA, but i think LA talk belongs in the LA thread.

[Urban Sky]

sarcastically speaking, of course;)

of course...speaking of history, i love the mural on the back side of the theater...the Ad for horse racing in Mexico...so vintage.

[Derek]

^i love the older artwork!! its a shame it is ignored by most though:(


(holy shit, myself and Urban Sky are on topic:jester:)

[sandiegodweller]

yeah, ive called the sales office to try and find info out about this several times, but they were very reluctant to give me any information.

i do think they they will be able to move forward without doing anything with the California Theater. I know it's an eyesore, but there is a LOT more wrong with C Street other than the California Theater.
I heard from a good source (attorney) a few months ago that it may be headed for BK or foreclosure.

The reason that it is vital to the area is because it needs to be secure so it won't collapse into surrounding structures or the trolley tracks. It will need to be addressed before you build next to it.

[Derek]

im sorry...but what does BK means again?

[sandiegodweller]

okay, well, i was talking about on a more "per capita" basis. you have to remember that LA is way bigger than SD, so SDs seemingly "little" growth when compared to LA is actually HUGE for the city.

I hate to be a bummer because it seems you like talking about LA, but i think LA talk belongs in the LA thread.
I don't have any interest in talking about LA. I was just responding with my OPINION that it is difficult to "manufacture" a street scene.

[spoonman]

I think there is a misconception that Pecto is what revitalized downtown. Obviously downtown started making a comeback after Horton Plaza was built, but downtown residential took off before Petco was ever approved. Yes it created synergy making things happen faster, but it was more like the third major catalyst.

[sandiegodweller]

im sorry...but what does BK means again?
bankruptcy

[spoonman]

We've got the whole gang here tonight...lol

[sandiegodweller]

I think there is a misconception that Pecto is what revitalized downtown. Obviously downtown started making a comeback after Horton Plaza was built, but downtown residential took off before Petco was ever approved. Yes it created synergy making things happen faster, but it was more like the third major catalyst.
True. Little Italy, Marina, Gaslamp would probably have taken off by themselves. Petco is certainly responsible for everything east of 6th Avenue.

[Derek]

^and im damn proud:tup:

[Urban Sky]

We've got the whole gang here tonight...lol

GANGS ALL HERE!

I think petco was a bigger player than people give it credit for. Maybe not as a "primary" for ALL of downtown, but especially for East Village.

[spoonman]

I absolutely agree with you about East Village

[Derek]

^i dont think people give Horton Plaza enough credit as the should...dweller is right about that revamping downtown...


(East Village is a different story...and i agree that Petco played a huge role there...we would never ever see the types of towers going up there right now had it not been for Petco Park)

[Urban Sky]

I heard from a good source (attorney) a few months ago that it may be headed for BK or foreclosure.

The reason that it is vital to the area is because it needs to be secure so it won't collapse into surrounding structures or the trolley tracks. It will need to be addressed before you build next to it.

i dont think any building will be going on next to the theater as it is surrounded by streets on all sides with the exception of 4th and B. While the building LOOKS really bad, I dont think its so close to collapse that anyone needs to worry about it. If the Theater remains as is, I don't think the revitalization project will stall at all.

While on the subject, I think that whole block could be used better. I think if anything, they should work with the owners of 4th and B and tear that ugly building down. They can just re-incorporate the club into whatever they decide to build there.

I know it was mentioned that the California Theater is historic and all, but I really can't think of any way to use the existing structure positively.

[Derek]

^a hotel i think is (or was) the plan for the theater...


(correct me if im wrong)

[spoonman]

There are a lot of things which played a part... the plunge that many new restaurants took, the convention center expansion & surrounding hotels, the trolley service area expansion, etc

It all goes back to the amenities...people followed them...Petco was just another amenity albeit a large one. Staples is the posterchild for how a sports park isn't enough by itself

[Urban Sky]

^i dont think people give Horton Plaza enough credit as the should...dweller is right about that revamping downtown...


(East Village is a different story...and i agree that Petco played a huge role there...we would never ever see the types of towers going up there right now had it not been for Petco Park)

Horton Plaza......in a way, yes. But the redevelopers of DTSD had a big part in pushing a lot of seedy businesses out of town. That's the way a lot of people viewed San Diego in the 80s and 90s. A place for porn shops etc.

Let's not forget the Convention Center. I think this had equal, if not greater, impact than Horton Plaza.

[Derek]

Horton Plaza......in a way, yes. But the redevelopers of DTSD had a big part in pushing a lot of seedy businesses out of town. That's the way a lot of people viewed San Diego in the 80s and 90s. A place for porn shops etc.

Let's not forget the Convention Center. I think this had equal, if not greater, impact than Horton Plaza.

thats true, i see your point:)

[Urban Sky]

^a hotel i think is (or was) the plan for the theater...


(correct me if im wrong)

Given the location, I would make it a Mixed-Use tower. At least that's how I'd do it. Think about it, it's almost in the CBD, it's merging with the area that getting some new Residential Towers, there are no Major or first-class hotels around...it's in an excellent location which will be even better once the surrounding blocks are cleaned up. Ground level retail...an awesome club on the back side....That block could be worth A LOT!

[Derek]

^if only someone would take the time...:(

[spoonman]

I used to go down to Cuban Cigar factory back in '97 and the area had already come a long way.

[spoonman]

Anyone used to go to Little Havana?

[Derek]

^no...but 5th and Island reeks from all the smoke that comes out of place...

[Urban Sky]

Anyone used to go to Little Havana?

i didnt live here back then, only moved to SD in 2000. ive been to the real little havana though.

mmm....cigars..

[Urban Sky]

^if only someone would take the time...:(

i wish. thats one area that could use a turn around

[sandiegodweller]

i dont think any building will be going on next to the theater as it is surrounded by streets on all sides with the exception of 4th and B. While the building LOOKS really bad, I dont think its so close to collapse that anyone needs to worry about it. If the Theater remains as is, I don't think the revitalization project will stall at all.

While on the subject, I think that whole block could be used better. I think if anything, they should work with the owners of 4th and B and tear that ugly building down. They can just re-incorporate the club into whatever they decide to build there.

I know it was mentioned that the California Theater is historic and all, but I really can't think of any way to use the existing structure positively.
I don't see that area (near the Civic Center) as being very attractive/lucrative to developers.

There are several other blocks along Market that seem to have much more upside.

The trolley tracks make a good sales pitch when you are selling mixed-use development (convenient transit) but I see them as a magnet for transients.

[Derek]

^thats why somebody needs to revamp it;)

[Urban Sky]

I don't see that area (near the Civic Center) as being very attractive/lucrative to developers.

There are several other blocks along Market that seem to have much more upside.

The trolley tracks make a good sales pitch when you are selling mixed-use development (convenient transit) but I see them as a magnet for transients.

thats the point of the C street redevelopment. to get rid of all the scum...both the buildings and the people...it could be a beautiful area if a little time and money was invested.

[Urban Sky]

^thats why somebody needs to revamp it;)

exactly :tup:

[Derek]

do you think Ross dress for less really fits in there?

[Urban Sky]

cross dress for less? JK...no....is there a ross there? am i missing it somehow?

[Derek]

yeah...5th and C (approx...)...its just in a strange spot...

[sandiegodweller]

thats the point of the C street redevelopment. to get rid of all the scum...both the buildings and the people...it could be a beautiful area if a little time and money was invested.
Of course it would be great if it was cleaned up. My point is that until it is profitable for private industry to do so, it won't happen unless it the City finances it.

[Derek]

^the City wants to do a lot of things...but where did thier money go? :shrug:

[Urban Sky]

Of course it would be great if it was cleaned up. My point is that until it is profitable for private industry to do so, it won't happen unless it the City finances it.

its kind of a catch 22 that they have to just GET OVER.

east village would not have been profitable for businesses if the city AND private industry would not have invested in it. but just because it was an area that seemed unprofitable, does that mean they should not invest?

[sandiegodweller]

its kind of a catch 22 that they have to just GET OVER.

east village would not have been profitable for businesses if the city AND private industry would not have invested in it. but just because it was an area that seemed unprofitable, does that mean they should not invest?
I don't know how to answer that question. If private business want to speculate in the area, they can do it now. I imagine that the current owners of the California Theatre did that.

Once Petco Park was approved by the voters, private enterpise did speculate on East Village. The early developers who bought the land for less than $3-$5 million per acre probably did well. The current projects are still sitting there (Pep Boys, Yellow Cab site, Cosmo Square, Strata, etc.) because they don't make sense to build. I don't think that they are going to get built until they are profitable. In hindsight, these owners (along with their equity/debt partners) would probably say that they should not have "invested" in these projects.

[bmfarley]

^the City wants to do a lot of things...but where did thier money go? :shrug:
Yes, there is a lot of ambition in San Diego, isn't there? C Street. Library. North Embarcadero Plan. Historic SD Police Station. Fiesta Island. The only thing removed from the list has been the renovation/redevelopment of Qualcomm!!! What's up with that?

The C Street Master Plan has been in the paper every so often, but never front page material. Cost... estimated to be around $100million. Could end up being less. Could be more? CCDC is working on the a plan. If you follow the recent stuff you'll learn that the blocks where stations are located are too short, or not big enough, to handle projected riderhip. Lots of trains are there during rush hours and that is where people work, obviously. The trolley is also transitioning to a lower-floor vehicle that can carry slightly more people, but the cars are a bit longer. The C Street master plan will try to create a revitalization for the street, yet also need to handle a lot of trolley service.

[Derek]

^i love the new trains:tup:

[bmfarley]

^i love the new trains:tup: Yeah they are! I was motivated to dig up a photo and create an avatar of one, but of an older version. It's of a trolley at the Seaport Village station right next to the Brickyard cafe.

Here's a pic of a trolley on C Street from a couple years ago.
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n71/farleybrandon/Rail/DSCF0297-Civic.jpg

[Urban Sky]

I don't know how to answer that question. If private business want to speculate in the area, they can do it now. I imagine that the current owners of the California Theatre did that.

Once Petco Park was approved by the voters, private enterpise did speculate on East Village. The early developers who bought the land for less than $3-$5 million per acre probably did well. The current projects are still sitting there (Pep Boys, Yellow Cab site, Cosmo Square, Strata, etc.) because they don't make sense to build. I don't think that they are going to get built until they are profitable. In hindsight, these owners (along with their equity/debt partners) would probably say that they should not have "invested" in these projects.

I doubt that. Considering the rate at which things are going up these days and the rate at which things are being purchased, I dont think that these areas aren't profitable. Things may be on hold in order to re-evaluate how to best make money in east village, but there is still plenty of land to develop and plenty of money to be made. The area is only getting better with the addition of the Library, Albertsons is done etc...more businesses are moving that way.

As far as C Street goes, what I was saying is that in order to make a smart investment, you have to be able to see the value in an area before it is apparent to everyone. You have to take into consideration what kind of money is going into the area, what kind of money surrounds the area and what kind of money could potentially come to the area. If I had the capital, I would definitely at least purchase the Theater and hold it.

[Derek]

Yeah they are! I was motivated to dig up a photo and create an avatar of one, but of an older version. It's of a trolley at the Seaport Village station right next to the Brickyard cafe.



ah, the newer ones are so sleek and shiny:tup:


i have never seen one downtown though (thats in service...ive seen a few out of service, heading for the trainyard...)i mainly see them in Mission Valley out to Santee...

[Urban Sky]

Yes, there is a lot of ambition in San Diego, isn't there? C Street. Library. North Embarcadero Plan. Historic SD Police Station. Fiesta Island. The only thing removed from the list has been the renovation/redevelopment of Qualcomm!!! What's up with that?

The C Street Master Plan has been in the paper every so often, but never front page material. Cost... estimated to be around $100million. Could end up being less. Could be more? CCDC is working on the a plan. If you follow the recent stuff you'll learn that the blocks where stations are located are too short, or not big enough, to handle projected riderhip. Lots of trains are there during rush hours and that is where people work, obviously. The trolley is also transitioning to a lower-floor vehicle that can carry slightly more people, but the cars are a bit longer. The C Street master plan will try to create a revitalization for the street, yet also need to handle a lot of trolley service.

A lot needs to be done, but when it's complete, the area will be up to par...where it should have been for a long time. I used to commute from Downtown to East County via Trolley several years ago and even then, there were A LOT of people getting onto those trains between India and Park. In addition to the offices that are in the area, you have all the new residential and also the College. The area is much deserving.

[Derek]

^hopefully the San Diegan nearing completion can jump start some revitilization a little...thats no dinky hotel!

[Urban Sky]

Opposite view, low quality (sorry) 02-16-2004
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/urban_sky/CivicCenterTrolleyStation.jpg

[bmfarley]

ah, the newer ones are so sleek and shiny:tup:

i have never seen one downtown though (thats in service...ive seen a few out of service, heading for the trainyard...)i mainly see them in Mission Valley out to Santee...The newer trains cannot come downtown until the station platforms are raised.... 2" They are stuck in Mission Valley until so.

[Urban Sky]

The newer trains cannot come downtown until the station platforms are raised.... 2" They are stuck in Mission Valley until so.

i guess they better get crackin on that C Street project then!

[Derek]

The newer trains cannot come downtown until the station platforms are raised.... 2" They are stuck in Mission Valley until so.

oh, i see...thank you:)

[Derek]

i guess they better get crackin on that C Street project then!

Amen;)

[Urban Sky]

hahah, i took this June 2003. Funny....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/urban_sky/OneSantaFePlaceConstructionSign.jpg

[Derek]

wow! how did you dig that up?

[Urban Sky]

im looking through some old old photos i took back in the day

[bmfarley]

Amen;)You know what... the C Street stations also need to be longer too.. for rush hour times. I forgot that.

Like my changed avatar? Trains...gotta luv em.


Btw, on the horizon is the California High Speed Rail Authority's effort to bring high-speed trains to San Diego... like the French TGV. Downtown SD at Santa Fe Depot would be the terminus. Cool huh?

[Derek]

^ive been wanting to see high speed trains in Cali for years :tup:

[Urban Sky]

You know what... the C Street stations also need to be longer too.. for rush hour times. I forgot that.

Like my changed avatar? Trains...gotta luv em.


Btw, on the horizon is the California High Speed Rail Authority's effort to bring high-speed trains to San Diego... like the French TGV. Downtown SD at Santa Fe Depot would be the terminus. Cool huh?

ddaaaaang. youre an avatar-changin fiend. i think i had the same avatar for the first 4 years i was on here...i just changed mine last month for the first time.

[bmfarley]

^ive been wanting to see high speed trains in Cali for years :tup:Well, the news is mixed of late. The CHSRA requested $104m from the upcomming state budget to advance engieeering, more environmental work, and purchasing critical and necessary right of way. The actor-govenor put $1.2m or so in the first version.

I believe some state legislators are wanting more... and may be trying to get the full request honored... but there are competing interests and naysayers.

I read today that some legislators are travelling to France or Tiawan to tour their high speed train systems over the legislative break. Maybe they'll come back with renewed or reinvigorated interest???? We believers can only hope. HSR can reduce demand on Lindbergh Field... I'd think san Diego would want to get behind it!

[Derek]

edit. you literally answered my question as i wrote this ;)

[bmfarley]

ddaaaaang. youre an avatar-changin fiend. i think i had the same avatar for the first 4 years i was on here...i just changed mine last month for the first time.I just figured out how. I mean... I had pictures... but didn't know how to use any programs to get them the rigth size or anything. I just learned a month or so ago and put it to practice.

[Urban Sky]

Well, the news is mixed of late. The CHSRA requested $104m from the upcomming state budget to advance engieeering, more environmental work, and purchasing critical and necessary right of way. The actor-govenor put $1.2m or so in the first version.

I believe some state legislators are wanting more... and may be trying to get the full request honored... but there are competing interests and naysayers.

I read today that some legislators are travelling to France or Tiawan to tour their high speed train systems over the legislative break. Maybe they'll come back with renewed or reinvigorated interest???? We believers can only hope. HSR can reduce demand on Lindbergh Field... I'd think san Diego would want to get behind it!

if they want to move the airport our the the desert, the key is a mega-hub for commuting out there and a bullet train to get everyone there fast.

[Derek]

^i hate the idea of having the airport in the desert:(

even with the trains, its just way too far out there...i just wish officials at Miramar were nicer...

[bmfarley]

edit. you literally answered my question as i wrote this ;)
I think the big looming question for San Diego is how will HSR get to Santa Fe Depot??? Existing plans or preferred alignment have it coming down the current rail right of way used by the trolley, Coaster, Amtrak, and freigth traffic... but as an aerial structure. I cannot imagine an aerial structure being appropriate today!

I am kindaamazed that I have seen zero planning or thought of HSR here. I mean San Francisco, Anaheim, Sacramento, and Central Valley towns... they are all discussing it or planning for it. But not much happening here.

[Urban Sky]

^i hate the idea of having the airport in the desert:(

even with the trains, its just way too far out there...i just wish officials at Miramar were nicer...

thats what i am hoping for because i am with you. its just way to far out there. i wouldnt even want to move it if we could just get the height restriction lifted. although, that is some PRIME real estate.

miramar would be choice #1 for me for sure!

[Urban Sky]

I think the big looming question for San Diego is how will HSR get to Santa Fe Depot??? Existing plans or preferred alignment have it coming down the current rail right of way used by the trolley, Coaster, Amtrak, and freigth traffic... but as an aerial structure. I cannot imagine an aerial structure being appropriate today!

I am kindaamazed that I have seen zero planning or thought of HSR here. I mean San Francisco, Anaheim, Sacramento, and Central Valley towns... they are all discussing it or planning for it. But not much happening here.

san diego is kinda behind on mass transit. i guess they think everyone wants to drive everywhere.

[Derek]

uber-prime...and imagine a wrap-around skyline :drooling: