SAN DIEGO | Boom Rundown, Vol. 2

[dboakland]

Yah, the same thing that keeps San jose low-rise too. Lots of wonderful jet engine noise also. Maybe some day they'll relocate the airport to Miramar

[mello]

Or a developer with some balls or gravitas decides to challenge the FAA/City who ever enforces these silly rules. I think the lot behind Petco Park that JMI owns is very far from the flight path and a 750 footer there could get done, or 1st and Island is way south and BOSA could push for a 700 foot plus.

[spoonman]

Anyone knows will SD ever get built some skyscrapers of sizes (in terms of height) such as LA's or Boston's, or that of any major U.S. city? :shrug:

Such a shame for California's second largest city to have low-rise buildings all over the place.

You sound like a troll. I didn't know 45 floors was considered "low rise"

[northbay]

Personally, I think San Diego's skyline is awesome!

[Northparkwizard]

Might have been posted here before but I just found the Ballpark Village "Workzone Cam".

http://www.workzonecam.com/projects/turner7/ballparkvillage/workzonecam

[HurricaneHugo]

Personally, I think San Diego's skyline is awesome!

It is but imagine a 750 footer right in the middle...:slob:

[eburress]

You sound like a troll. I didn't know 45 floors was considered "low rise"

That's not what he meant, but 45 floor max buildings isn't anything to be proud of either.

[SDfan]

You sound like a troll. I didn't know 45 floors was considered "low rise"

While 45 stories isn't a low rise and is a high-rise, it's definitely not a skyscraper. :(

[IconRPCV]

I love our skyline, and while it would be nice to have some tall guys, I think our dense all around 500 feet makes us unique.

One America Plaza would look really amazing rising above the rest at 650 or so, I must admit.

[mello]

So what is your take on the entire convention center mess. Looks like Briggs is in bed with John Moores and JMI to push his agenda of an annex so Moores can build his huge 1600 room twin 500 footer hotel. He is going to fight and block any effort for a contiguous expansion. He also wants to up the hotel tax which is the one thing I agree with and will cover the cities share of annex and stadium over the years because it will go in to general fund.

I'm not sure if just an annex would be built alone or if it would need to be tied to a stadium? What have you guys heard? At this point I just want something to get done and those huge parking lots behind PETCO and the bus depot to go away so sick of that giant black hole in downtown. I don't see any other way the 4 sq. block bus depot goes anywhere in the next 25 years.

Also having the entire Qualcomm property to build an SDSU extension and housing would be pretty huge it could give you synergy with what the city is trying to do at Grantville. Speaking of Grantville any renderings of what that would look like yet?

[SDCAL]

I love our skyline, and while it would be nice to have some tall guys, I think our dense all around 500 feet makes us unique.

One America Plaza would look really amazing rising above the rest at 650 or so, I must admit.

The denser it gets with buildings right around 500 ft, the more it looks like a plateau skyline. Some diversity in height would look a lot better, even just ONE significantly taller skyscraper piercing through the skyline would break-up the monotony and make it look a lot better.

[SDCAL]

So what is your take on the entire convention center mess. Looks like Briggs is in bed with John Moores and JMI to push his agenda of an annex so Moores can build his huge 1600 room twin 500 footer hotel. He is going to fight and block any effort for a contiguous expansion. He also wants to up the hotel tax which is the one thing I agree with and will cover the cities share of annex and stadium over the years because it will go in to general fund.

I'm not sure if just an annex would be built alone or if it would need to be tied to a stadium? What have you guys heard? At this point I just want something to get done and those huge parking lots behind PETCO and the bus depot to go away so sick of that giant black hole in downtown. I don't see any other way the 4 sq. block bus depot goes anywhere in the next 25 years.

Also having the entire Qualcomm property to build an SDSU extension and housing would be pretty huge it could give you synergy with what the city is trying to do at Grantville. Speaking of Grantville any renderings of what that would look like yet?

Many may disagree with me, but I believe a non-contiguous convention center expansion and a downtown football stadium are both bad ideas. I won't go into the football thing because we have debated it at length previously on this board and, as far as I know, it's not being moved forward as a serious proposal any longer. As far as the convention center, I don't see why large conventions would book somewhere they need to shuttle people back and forth to if there are other places where everything can be under one roof. Those really large conventions already have so many different considerations for the planners to consider, who wants to deal with the added logistics of shuttling people back and forth. I think we should proceed with the proposal to expand the current convention center and have a public park on the roof as proposed to satisfy coastal commission requirements for public access at the bay front.

I don't trust Corey Briggs. He sells himself as a watchdog for the community, but he seems to be tied to certain developers and agendas himself. I don't think anybody is really clear who he's working for.

[Bertrice]

Ballpark village
image from twitter

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CRELmcQUwAApE2y.jpg:large

[Leo the Dog]

Personally, I think San Diego's skyline is awesome!

I agree 100%. Even though LA has taller iconic buildings, our skyline is so much more beautiful. It's really starting to fill in.

[HurricaneHugo]

I agree 100%. Even though LA has taller iconic buildings, our skyline is so much more beautiful. It's really starting to fill in.

Yeah LA's skyline is like 10 tall buildings spread out.

San Diego's is like 30 smaller buildings with good density

[SDCAL]

Yeah LA's skyline is like 10 tall buildings spread out.

San Diego's is like 30 smaller buildings with good density

When I drive by LA's downtown, though, I really get a sense for how large those buildings are. Not just height, but even the girth and overall size does have a certain wow factor. Not only are the towers in San Diego not that tall, they also seem much narrower (part of it is probably designed that way to make them look taller). Of course, height and size isn't everything and SD has LA beat in terms of downtown walk ability and street level experience. We are also a waterfront dt, something LA will never be able to compete with.

[dales5050]

As far as the convention center, I don't see why large conventions would book somewhere they need to shuttle people back and forth to if there are other places where everything can be under one roof. Those really large conventions already have so many different considerations for the planners to consider, who wants to deal with the added logistics of shuttling people back and forth. I think we should proceed with the proposal to expand the current convention center and have a public park on the roof as proposed to satisfy coastal commission requirements for public access at the bay front.

Removed the stadium stuff to focus on your CC point. SO MUCH THIS!

The one opinion I want to add is the idea of 'public access to the bay' is a crock of BS.

There are plenty of places along the bay to provide access. Just look at the land near the airport where the car rental agencies used to be located. Make that a massive park for the public and leave the 'convention strip' alone and build out to drive convention business.

The idea of including access at each point along the bay, this 'mixed access' if you will, only dilutes each section to not be the best it can be. Have focus areas instead.

I don't trust Corey Briggs. He sells himself as a watchdog for the community, but he seems to be tied to certain developers and agendas himself. I don't think anybody is really clear who he's working for.

Anyone who trusts Briggs is someone not worthy of trusting. That guy is pond scum.

[patriotizzy]

When I drive by LA's downtown, though, I really get a sense for how large those buildings are. Not just height, but even the girth and overall size does have a certain wow factor. Not only are the towers in San Diego not that tall, they also seem much narrower (part of it is probably designed that way to make them look taller). Of course, height and size isn't everything and SD has LA beat in terms of downtown walk ability and street level experience. We are also a waterfront dt, something LA will never be able to compete with.

I just went to LA for the first time 2 weeks ago. Let me prephase it by saying that I work in San Francisco, so I'm used to density and skyscrapers. However, I was blown away by the sheer enormity of LA's buildings. They are HUGE. Also, the skyline never impressed me in any of the pictures I saw, but seeing it in person I was awestruck!

Staying on topic, I've never been to San Diego, but it's on my to do list! My friend has nothing but good words about it.

[SDCAL]

I just went to LA for the first time 2 weeks ago. Let me prephase it by saying that I work in San Francisco, so I'm used to density and skyscrapers. However, I was blown away by the sheer enormity of LA's buildings. They are HUGE. Also, the skyline never impressed me in any of the pictures I saw, but seeing it in person I was awestruck!

Staying on topic, I've never been to San Diego, but it's on my to do list! My friend has nothing but good words about it.

Come down for a visit! Our downtown area is great and a lot more improvements going on. Also, don't miss Balboa Park if you've never been here before. You are right about LA's skyline, it's much more impressive in person than in pictures, mainly because of the enormity of the main skyscrapers.

[JerellO]

I just went to LA for the first time 2 weeks ago. Let me prephase it by saying that I work in San Francisco, so I'm used to density and skyscrapers. However, I was blown away by the sheer enormity of LA's buildings. They are HUGE. Also, the skyline never impressed me in any of the pictures I saw, but seeing it in person I was awestruck!

Staying on topic, I've never been to San Diego, but it's on my to do list! My friend has nothing but good words about it.

I live in San Diego, Hillcrest :D and get impressed by our skyline everytime I drive on the 5 north or south :) I'm really excited about the new Horton Plaza park.. Anyways you're right about DTLA. In pictures and from far away, like the Griffith observatory, LA's skyline looks tiny, but that's because you really are THAT far away.. and the only prominent buildings are the enormous office skyscrapers of bunker hill and the financial district, remember San Diego's tallest is only 500ft and is narrow. While LA's is 1018ft and wide. So just imagine SD's skyline at the same distance.. It would look tiny and squatty. You go up close and walk in DTLA and you'll see how large those buildings are.. And you realize that DTLA really is dense and rich in beaux arts and Art Deco beauty, something San Diego has very few of.. you just need to walk around the historic core, down 7th st, and the Broadway theatre district, or look on google maps or that iPhone 3D maps thingy.

A lot of people don't know about those areas because the historic buildings were built at a time when LA had a 150ft height limit.. But it's there :) Very gritty and NYC in the 70s.

[Leo the Dog]

The Pendry Hotel - Gaslamp is above ground now. First floor looks almost complete. Already making a difference on that corner. Will be awesome once it's open for business!

[mello]

Yes Pendry and Ballpark Village are going to be very big for our downtown. Big out of the box idea for Horton Plaza: Why doesn't Westfield sell that white elephant to a Chinese Billionaire and have them totally start from scratch? Even renovating that place will be lipstick on a pig and I never really see it being a thriving retail area unless its is totally torn down and start fresh. Look at Brickell Center in Miami with mixed use towers and retail underneath. What do you guys think?


Oh and speaking of a 650 to 750 foot tower in middle of skyline, the space on broadway where old courthouse will be demolished would be perfect for that!

[spoonman]

Regarding the building height limit...if you look at pictures of the crane at the courthouse construction site, it is at least 600+ feet high...above One America Plaza. Looks very cool and is also a shame that an actual building can't be that high.

[Northparkwizard]

Regarding the building height limit...if you look at pictures of the crane at the courthouse construction site, it is at least 600+ feet high...above One America Plaza. Looks very cool and is also a shame that an actual building can't be that high.

Speak of the Devil!

Look what the FAA is doing about those cranes... (http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2015/oct/21/crane-plane-crash-delay-courthouse-lawsuit/)

[SDCAL]

Speak of the Devil!

Look what the FAA is doing about those cranes... (http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2015/oct/21/crane-plane-crash-delay-courthouse-lawsuit/)

I read this and was coming here to post it, you beat me to the punch :)

This is just outrageous. It's actually the County Regional Airport Authority who is suing, not the FAA themselves. This airport needs to be relocated so bad, it's really frustrating what the city is willing to put up with just to keep this airport in this problematic location. It impacts development, building heights and density in our core, and overseas flight options that can in-turn impact our local business economy.

According to this "news 10" article, a pilot will be on to explain how the cranes pose a risk to incoming flights. I usually avoid the local news but I'm going to record this to see what this pilot says. I have lived downtown for a decade and have never once seen or heard a plane flying low overhead to the point a 600 or 700 or even 800 foot building would ever pose a risk. I've also flown into San Diego "International" airport many, many times and have never gone over downtown. This is especially disturbing because no developer will challenge the 500 ft rule to build a building when people are getting sued just for having a CRANE that's over the height limit. SO frustrating :(

http://www.10news.com/news/lawsuit-3-downtown-sd-cranes-are-too-tall-102115

[dtell04]

http://www.ideadistrictsd.com/groundbreaking/
They're at least having a party.....

[dtell04]

Or a developer with some balls or gravitas decides to challenge the FAA/City who ever enforces these silly rules. I think the lot behind Petco Park that JMI owns is very far from the flight path and a 750 footer there could get done, or 1st and Island is way south and BOSA could push for a 700 foot plus.

It is also determined by north island airfield flight paths.

[IMBY]

When I drive by LA's downtown, though, I really get a sense for how large those buildings are. Not just height, but even the girth and overall size does have a certain wow factor. Not only are the towers in San Diego not that tall, they also seem much narrower (part of it is probably designed that way to make them look taller). Of course, height and size isn't everything and SD has LA beat in terms of downtown walk ability and street level experience. We are also a waterfront dt, something LA will never be able to compete with.

What adds to the Bunker Hill skyscrapers, is not only their height, but the fact they're up on a hill. That hill, in the back of the Central Market, how many floors does that hill represent? 10-15 floors or more?

Put those buildings down below that hill and they wouldn't be that impressive!

[upward 2000]

What adds to the Bunker Hill skyscrapers, is not only their height, but the fact they're up on a hill. That hill, in the back of the Central Market, how many floors does that hill represent? 10-15 floors or more?

Put those buildings down below that hill and they wouldn't be that impressive!

The elevation ranges from 280' at the AON building to 380' at the Wells Fargo Plaza. AON is 858' and Wells is 723'

[dales5050]

Why doesn't Westfield sell that white elephant to a Chinese Billionaire and have them totally start from scratch? Even renovating that place will be lipstick on a pig and I never really see it being a thriving retail area unless its is totally torn down and start fresh.


Would be wonderful to have a new take on Horton Plaza but I am not sure if I agree that you need to demo the entire mall to get there.

I think you need to clear the entire mall for a top down renovation but that, while still a huge project, is not as big as a rebuild. If this were done, what I would like to see is:

> Remove the food court.
> Move the gym to the top floor.
> Make the 1st floor a 'Main Street' of bars, restaurants, specialty food shops and entertainment options.
> Keep a single big store like Nordstrom, at that corner, but have the exterior all glass like union square.
> Take the 3 floors of Macy's and convert to 3 new things.
>> First floor would be a large restaurant or club.
>> Second floor something like a Crate and Barrel
>> Third Floor something like a Williams Sonoma
> Remove all of the tacky lower end stores and have your baseline be a 'gap' or better.

Something like this would allow Horton Plaza to keep the first level open until 2am and they could just block access to the upper floors once the movies let out.

How cool would it be to have down by Jimbo's a butcher, cheese shop and bakery all in one location? With the ample parking, you could actually bring people down to this area just to do their weekly grocery shopping.

After 7pm or so, it would convert into another strip like 5th with people out and about. The big difference here would be you could have more of a connection to the moving people than on 5th.

I also think the balboa theatre is grossly underused. I don't know why they have such a hard time booking acts. I saw Elvis Costello there years ago and it was an amazing venue that helped with the show.

[dtell04]

https://sandiegans4opengov.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/notice_of_intent_tfid_final_advance_release.pdf

http://sdstadium.org/press-release-san-diego-stadium-coalition-strongly-supports-new-downtown-initiative/

Start with the press release. It's a plan actually supported by Corey Briggs to raise the TOT and use the funds to build a convention center/stadium downtown. Conveniently right before the NFL public hearing next week.....

[IMBY]

The elevation ranges from 280' at the AON building to 380' at the Wells Fargo Plaza. AON is 858' and Wells is 723'

That seems about right! There's a cable car, in front of the Central Market, in the rear of the building, that can take you up to the top of Bunker Hill, so the equivalent of 25+ stories. And from that perspective, at Central Market, they're quite awesome to look at, more so for me, as I'm a complete sucker for curved glass buildings!

[mello]

Logic of 500 foot height limit: It just dawned on me how were Symphony Towers (approved 30 years ago) and Vantage Pointe (12) allowed to be built. Think about it planes fly even with the higher floors of these towers and then as they head NW towards Lindbergh's runway they move AWAY from all other towers downtown.

My point is as the planes move farther west they go away from downtown. The logic would be to have strict height limits near Vantage and Symphony in the NE corner of downtown that is obviously closest to the incoming flight path like maybe 300 feet if they were really that worried about it. Then to the west and south of Symphony Tower region of downtown heights should be allowed up to 850 or whatever. The only danger is in that NE corner.

A pilot would never pass by Symphony tower then make a crazy banking turn at the very last seconds of the flight and go near the new courthouse the idea is laughable.... So strange I just don't get it. Have you guys ever seen a plane flying over downtown's towers any lower than 1500 feet? I never have, not even close.

[Bertrice]

Taken today. pics don't due justice to the size of this place

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/722/22408892972_f28f348aea_z.jpg

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5659/22234389278_f5203c3730_z.jpg

[SDfan]

I passed Blue Sky today, i's about 5-6 stories above ground now.

[dales5050]

Taken today. pics don't due justice to the size of this place

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/722/22408892972_f28f348aea_z.jpg


That place is going to be so awesome.

Does anyone know what the story is behind the Plaza Hotel just up the street on 4th between Broadway and C? Walked by it 1,000 times and always felt it could be converted to an amazing boutique hotel but I am not sure if that's even possible.

[The Flying Dutchman]

I've been inside. Never again. It's roach-infested, shit stained, and carries an air of many lives taken (either self-inflicted or otherwise). If you're someone that ever winds up here, may God have mercy on you.

Raze it.

[IconRPCV]

Taken today. pics don't due justice to the size of this place

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/722/22408892972_f28f348aea_z.jpg

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5659/22234389278_f5203c3730_z.jpg

It is going to be an amazing space! A place the city can congregate to celebrate a Charger's Super Bowl Win! Oh wait that might not ever be a possibility; a place we can congregate to celebrate a Padres' World Series Win! Oh shit that might not ever happen either. Well its a great space none the less.

[dtell04]

Does anyone believe the crap the NFL spits about not having 3 SoCal football teams? We have an abundance of professional sports teams.
Or is it three teams would be too much regional competition between owners?
Thoughts?

[mello]

Dtell: that is just a leverage play on the NFL's part to have that vague statement out there. This is not some documented guideline just something that has been said at one or two press conferences over the years. They didn't even specify if they meant 3 teams in LA or 3 in Southern California. (As you guys have noticed sometimes over the years SD seems to get left out of "SoCal" in the media and it is used as a term to describe LA metro)

I think it is pretty obvious the only one with the money and gravitas to pull off the LA is move is Stan Kroenke. Spanos is the cheap greek who can't even put in a new sound system and video board at his stadium while when all is said and done Kroenke will have put 3 BILLION in to this venture: 900 mill for Rams ownership, 200 mill for Inglewood land, 1.8 billion for stadium! Ahem, and Spanos bought Chargers for a song in 84 and hasn't done crap since all the other owners clearly see he is a speck on Kroenke's shoulder and just trying to "protect his market" so he can get a couple hundred mill kicked down for his trouble.

What Kroenke will invest is unprecedented in pro sports, remember dodgers sold for 2.2 billion but they did not build a facility. The big fish get the big pond, it takes money to make money, stay in your lane etc. All these cliches will ring true and Spanos will just have to make his paltry 2.5 billion in his team equity here in SD, I'm shedding a tear for the poor guy as I type this.

[Leo the Dog]

Has anyone taken the time to count all of the cranes downtown? It's amazing to see so many notable projects under construction simultaneously.

[nezbn22]

Has anyone taken the time to count all of the cranes downtown? It's amazing to see so many notable projects under construction simultaneously.

Pretty awesome. Off the top of my head, the downtown projects currently underway are:

Pendry Hotel
Ballpark Village
Lane Field Hotel
Fat City/China Camp Hotel
New Courthouse
Blue Sky
Bosa's Pacific Gate
Horton Plaza Park
Little Italy Piazza
Alexan East Village

Gaslamp Courtyard Hotel just opened.

Did I miss anything?

[The Flying Dutchman]

Pretty awesome. Off the top of my head, the downtown projects currently underway are:

Pendry Hotel
Ballpark Village
Lane Field Hotel
Fat City/China Camp Hotel
New Courthouse
Blue Sky
Bosa's Pacific Gate
Horton Plaza Park
Little Italy Piazza
Alexan East Village

Gaslamp Courtyard Hotel just opened.

Did I miss anything?

Good list! Only thing missing I think would be:
13th and C

[HurricaneHugo]

Does anyone believe the crap the NFL spits about not having 3 SoCal football teams? We have an abundance of professional sports teams.
Or is it three teams would be too much regional competition between owners?
Thoughts?

There were 3 teams before '94

[Streamliner]

I was downtown for jury duty yesterday and took a few pics of the Pacific Gate foundations, the County Courthouse, and Lane Field. My htc one camera went bad over the last year and a half so sorry for the quality.

Pacific Gate - as viewed from Broadway and the train tracks:
http://i.imgur.com/eI6UuAFh.jpg

Image from the Embarcadero showing the Pacific Gate cranes and the County Courthouse's impact on the skyline:
http://i.imgur.com/mHk15D9h.jpg

Lane Field:
http://i.imgur.com/7QmxJBDh.jpg

County Courthouse from State Street:
http://i.imgur.com/qYn0hW9h.jpg

County Courthouse cladding/glass is going up:
http://i.imgur.com/KF5jQs0h.jpg

[spoonman]

Wow, Boas has made a lot of progress on the Pacific Gateway foundation. Seems like that was a dirt lot little more than a month or two ago.

[Derek]

Lane Field:
http://i.imgur.com/7QmxJBDh.jpg




I haven't been back to SD in three years, what on earth is this thing in front of The Grande towers?

[Leo the Dog]

Pretty awesome. Off the top of my head, the downtown projects currently underway are:

Pendry Hotel
Ballpark Village
Lane Field Hotel
Fat City/China Camp Hotel
New Courthouse
Blue Sky
Bosa's Pacific Gate
Horton Plaza Park
Little Italy Piazza
Alexan East Village

Gaslamp Courtyard Hotel just opened.

Did I miss anything?

Nice list. Some of these projects have 2-3 cranes. Really makes SD look like an exciting city from afar. Also, Hillcrest/Bankers Hill has a couple mid rise residential projects that are about to go verticle.

[Leo the Dog]

I haven't been back to SD in three years, what on earth is this thing?

Home plate at the old ballpark.

[Derek]

Home plate at the old ballpark.


I know about Lane Field, I meant the building behind it.

[Streamliner]

I know about Lane Field, I meant the building behind it.

That's part of a development that's also called Lane Field. This building will be a Marriott Springhill Suites/Residence Inn combination hotel. It's 200 feet tall

A second, taller, tower will be built just south of this building. It's also part of the Lane Field development.

https://www.portofsandiego.org/lane-field.html

[spoonman]

^ Its rather funny how much squabbling happened over these buildings only to have them come out looking like a correctional facility...lol. I don't hate it, but I'm a bit dumbfounded.

[Streamliner]

^ Its rather funny how much squabbling happened over these buildings only to have them come out looking like a correctional facility...lol. I don't hate it, but I'm a bit dumbfounded.

While I don't like the awkward massing of the buildings, I'm actually fairly happy with the facade. It's a bit all over the place, but at least it's not surrounded by identical, bland balconies.

---------

Has anybody seen this Bosa exhibition? It's called Rethink Downtown, located at 700 First Avenue. It looks like they have a cool model of downtown, though it's mainly emphasizing Bosa's additions. I found a couple pics online:

http://huntermaddox.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/pacific_gate_bosa_rendering_092515_02.jpg
Source (http://huntermaddox.com/)

http://cdn.sandiegouniontrib.com/img/photos/2015/09/24/bosa_rethink_9.2015_003_r900x493.jpg?122770e84b36f1c039d5c4c2ca15c2d8bc4ecd52

The last image was taken from a Union-Tribune article on the exhibition (http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2015/sep/24/bosa-rethink-downtown-exhibition/).

Here's the official site (http://rethinkdowntown.com/)

If anyone goes, take some detailed pics of this model please. I love these kind of things.

[mello]

Can the taller Lane Field tower please start soon to take the attention away from that little stumper that just topped out lol. Also the BOSA building behind it needs to break ground soon that will help take the focus away from the beast that Lane Field is. I don't believe Alexan Little Italy has started but cranes are up for the GH Horton Date street development which will be HUGE for LI! Also the parking garage is finished it looks decent when viewed from the west.

[Bertrice]

Also the parking garage is finished it looks decent when viewed from the west.

here's a pic I found

https://coolsandiegosights.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/img_7507z-this-parking-garage-when-completed-will-serve-both-the-nearby-county-administration-center-and-little-italy.jpg

[tyleraf]

Manchester has slightly updated renders on his Pacific gateway website. http://www.manchesterpacificgateway.com/images/slide6.jpg

[spoonman]

I actually like Manchester's design. Sort of a Rockefeller center style...I think it is good for the area to add more of an urban office feel as opposed to the palm tree playfulness of the Seaport Village area.

[mello]

I think the Manchester renderings look really bland and the color is so monotone just all beige and square edges.

Also why is it so short on the South end of the development that is where the big gap is in our skyline it would be nice to have a 400 footer on that side for sure. Everything behind that section is the low rise UTC style crap built in the mid 80s because everyone was afraid to live downtown.

[eburress]

I actually like Manchester's design. Sort of a Rockefeller center style...I think it is good for the area to add more of an urban office feel as opposed to the palm tree playfulness of the Seaport Village area.

Yeah, I do too. It's nice in general, and I feel like it adds a little maturity to the Downtown skyline, suggesting that actual business is happening here.

[dales5050]

I actually like Manchester's design. Sort of a Rockefeller center style...I think it is good for the area to add more of an urban office feel as opposed to the palm tree playfulness of the Seaport Village area.

Was going to say Rockefeller Center as well. It's a nice collection of buildings for sure.

[Streamliner]

Looks like Ballpark Village got a slight redesign (http://civicsd.com/images/stories/downloads/meetings-and-events/event-calendar/2015/October_2015_BD_Item_11_-_Ballpark_Village_Parcel_C.pdf). It's now less colorful, and a tad shorter as well. Some other minor unique design elements seem to have been streamlined away as well.

In other news, CivicSD approved the design for Broadway Block (http://civicsd.com/images/stories/downloads/meetings-and-events/event-calendar/2015/BroadwayBlock_drawings.pdf) with some minor design changes. Hope to see this one start soon.

The design for 4th and J (http://civicsd.com/images/stories/downloads/meetings-and-events/event-calendar/2015/4thJ_drawings.pdf) was approved by CivicSD as well.

[ucsbgaucho]

Was going to say Rockefeller Center as well. It's a nice collection of buildings for sure.

Only problem is the charm of Rockefeller Center is that it's an old, historic building that fit the style at the time. But you look at the construction now in NYC for example, they're not building vintage-style art-deco buildings; they're all glass, all sleek.

I think on a smaller scale, the old look would work, or when you build out a modern skyscraper from the base structure of an old building (Warehouse and Petco Park, etc). But I think these might stand out in the wrong way simply because they are brand new buildings, and don't really fit the architecture of the rest of downtown. Our downtown for the most part is not old and historic, and any city that does have an old downtown like NYC or SF are building sleek, modern skyscrapers now, not this type of stuff.

[SEsdCALconnect]

More on Papa Doug's Pacific Gateway on this video which just came out a few days ago...

https://youtu.be/KBM9QyP8rgA

[mello]

The only comparison to NBC in a western coastal city I can think of (huge vacant land blank slate with new development right on the water) is Barangaroo in Sydney and here is what they are doing:

http://www.designboom.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/crownsydKPF_04.jpg

Looks much more modern and contemporary not just wanna be Rockefeller center. Good mix of height and fairly unique design.

Check google out for more/better renderings, I just posted this one because it shows the project in the context of the Sydney CBD.

[SEsdCALconnect]

Wow! That Barangaroo development is AMAZING! I especially love how they're complementing it with the nearby reserve...

The only comparison to NBC in a western coastal city I can think of (huge vacant land blank slate with new development right on the water) is Barangaroo in Sydney and here is what they are doing:

http://www.designboom.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/crownsydKPF_04.jpg

Looks much more modern and contemporary not just wanna be Rockefeller center. Good mix of height and fairly unique design.

Check google out for more/better renderings, I just posted this one because it shows the project in the context of the Sydney CBD.

[JerellO]

Manchester has slightly updated renders on his Pacific gateway website. http://www.manchesterpacificgateway.com/images/slide6.jpg

Omg I'm in love with this! It has a very Art Deco feeling to it

[SDCAL]

Only problem is the charm of Rockefeller Center is that it's an old, historic building that fit the style at the time. But you look at the construction now in NYC for example, they're not building vintage-style art-deco buildings; they're all glass, all sleek.

I think on a smaller scale, the old look would work, or when you build out a modern skyscraper from the base structure of an old building (Warehouse and Petco Park, etc). But I think these might stand out in the wrong way simply because they are brand new buildings, and don't really fit the architecture of the rest of downtown. Our downtown for the most part is not old and historic, and any city that does have an old downtown like NYC or SF are building sleek, modern skyscrapers now, not this type of stuff.

I agree 100%. The NBC design looks like a bland, short knockoff of what folks here are saying is "Rockerfeller Center-like". (Not sure the architects intended that or not). Having Bosa with the sleek ocean-inspired design, the more west coast layed back feel of the embarcadero, and then this wanna be Art Deco thing stuck in the middle will, in my opinion, make the waterfront look very cookie-cutter and Dinsneyworld-ish. Like we have no cohesive plan, just a smattering of this and that. Maybe I'm being too critical and I hope I'll like it when built, but it seems really underwhelming to me. The taller towers do have a better look to them, but the shorter surrounding buildings are in no way worthy of that site. Still looks like an Irvine Business Park to me, as opposed to Rockerfeller Center.

[SDCAL]

One observation, re: NBC. I think it would look much better with the taller buildings as they are, but then instead of the bland shorter buildings a more modern glass wrap-around structure that would provide the contrast of more traditional and modern. It just seems so blah now, as Mellow pointed out that entire thing is the same beige color. I really do want to like it, but I don't. It's simply not a good design, especially for such an important location. In 50 years people on his board will be asking why it was allowed to go up and suggesting it be leveled and something more dynamic put in its place.

[bobbyv]

Manchester has slightly updated renders on his Pacific gateway website. http://www.manchesterpacificgateway.com/images/slide6.jpg

Not bad, looks like Irvine on steroids.

[SDCAL]

More on Papa Doug's Pacific Gateway on this video which just came out a few days ago...

https://youtu.be/KBM9QyP8rgA

I don't understand this video. It has a lot of great shots of San Diego and has our mayor talking about how great our city is, then intermittently they flash images of Rodeo Drive in Los Angeles. Is this intentional? Is the implication that this will bring very high end retail reminiscent of Rodeo Drive, or did someone just screw up when making the video?

[Derek]

I don't understand this video. It has a lot of great shots of San Diego and has our mayor talking about how great our city is, then intermittently they flash images of Rodeo Drive in Los Angeles. Is this intentional? Is the implication that this will bring very high end retail reminiscent of Rodeo Drive, or did someone just screw up when making the video?



Nah, it definitely looked like somebody messed up.

[SDCAL]

Nah, it definitely looked like somebody messed up.

That's my guess too. They kept talking about retail in the video, and it looks like the harbor facing buildings with the yellow awnings in the renderings might be geared towards high end retail. I'm guessing they wanted to put examples of upscale retail in the video but someone didn't realize the generic images they got were actually of LA.

[mello]

Editorial piece in UT today that said Irwin Jacobs and Malin Burnham have been quietly planning to push for a mega airport at the South end of Camp Pendleton that would serve SD, Orange, and Riverside Counties. Also said that Lindbergh would stay open. Would this change your opinion on widening I-5? Those who are against it: If there was a massive 2 runway airport built people from South of I-8 are obviously going to have a treck and will want to take a car to make it fairly quick.

I was thinking why not close Lindbergh and make the Tijuana/Cross border facility much bigger to provide for those living in or visiting the southern part of the County. How many people from Orange County would drive south to use Pendleton airport instead of LAX? This is a very interesting development. Burnham and Jacobs would probably be dead by the time this comes to fruition so it is a family legacy project on their part.

[SDCAL]

Editorial piece in UT today that said Irwin Jacobs and Malin Burnham have been quietly planning to push for a mega airport at the South end of Camp Pendleton that would serve SD, Orange, and Riverside Counties. Also said that Lindbergh would stay open. Would this change your opinion on widening I-5? Those who are against it: If there was a massive 2 runway airport built people from South of I-8 are obviously going to have a treck and will want to take a car to make it fairly quick.

I was thinking why not close Lindbergh and make the Tijuana/Cross border facility much bigger to provide for those living in or visiting the southern part of the County. How many people from Orange County would drive south to use Pendleton airport instead of LAX? This is a very interesting development. Burnham and Jacobs would probably be dead by the time this comes to fruition so it is a family legacy project on their part.

If it's a "mega airport", it should be large enough to serve the entire SD metropolitan area. I don't see it being "mega" with only north county SD and south County OC passengers considering OC has John Wayne and SD has Lindbergh field. It's not unusual for an airport to be a good 30-40 miles from city center, looks at Denver as one example. It could work if it included better mass transit from downtown and South Bay up to Oceanside. But if the plan is to keep Lindbergh field open, I just don't see the point.

What I think makes the MOST sense is to move Miramar to Oceanside and have it next to Pendleton to form a large military center then put the "mega airport" where Miramar is now.

[mello]

Yes it would be big enough to serve all of SD metro area plus OC, the rationale is that its so far from the south and east counties that Lindbergh would be kept open for some flights to serve those regions.

I totally agree with you about the Miramar solution but Jacobs and Burnham probably know it just isn't politically feasible and Scripps Ranch, UTC/University City, and La Jolla people would fight it to the death.

[dales5050]

Only problem is the charm of Rockefeller Center is that it's an old, historic building that fit the style at the time. But you look at the construction now in NYC for example, they're not building vintage-style art-deco buildings; they're all glass, all sleek.

I think on a smaller scale, the old look would work, or when you build out a modern skyscraper from the base structure of an old building (Warehouse and Petco Park, etc). But I think these might stand out in the wrong way simply because they are brand new buildings, and don't really fit the architecture of the rest of downtown. Our downtown for the most part is not old and historic, and any city that does have an old downtown like NYC or SF are building sleek, modern skyscrapers now, not this type of stuff.


I don't think having differences in the buildings is a bad thing. Frankly, San Diego could use a lot of work in that regard.

[spoonman]

One thing I like about the current Manchester rendering is that it appears to restore the street grid between PCH and Harbor.

[spoonman]

http://www.manchesterpacificgateway.com/work.html

Direct from the website...

Office 1B
28-story, 865,235 SF Office Tower with 80,650 SF of Retail
The most prominent office tower of Manchester Pacific Gateway lies at the corner of Broadway Ave. and Pacific Hwy. Inspired by Rockefeller Center’s iconic office towers of the 1930’s, its vertical lines and floor to ceiling glass draw design influence from the art deco and international styles of this landmark project while providing a technology-forward smart building environment that will redefine downtown San Diego’s future workplace. Facing Broadway Green, this 28 story tower stands 400 feet tall and affords unobstructed sweeping views of the bay. Like Rock Center, the tower is topped by an observation deck and roof top lounge like no other in San Diego. In addressing the neighborhood’s urban design guidelines the tower steps back at the 4th, 9th and 25th floors providing opportunities for amenity decks for both private and shared use.

I believe there is a height limit on that parcel to avoid "walling off the bay" and maintain view corridors.

Also, this...

Convention Hotel
28-story, 1,009,000 SF, 1,200 Keys

The second hotel has 1,200 luxurious rooms that measure 400 square feet each, 80 penthouse suites, breakout rooms, two large ballrooms of 27,000 and 40,000 square feet, a grand lobby with bar, and 800 parking spaces. Amenities include luxury retail, elegant spa, ocean view pool deck, and rooftop bar and restaurants offering international cuisine to the most discerning diners. In addition, the hotel will have a state-of-the-art fitness center, a 40,000 square foot museum and exhibit hall, luxury jewelry stores and boutiques, VIP lounge and entertainment, world-class concierge services, and pedestrian access to the Manchester Pacific Gateway Paseo.

[Streamliner]

Does anybody know if operations within the current NAVFAC buildings north of Lane Field and south/east of the Wyndham hotel will move into the new NBC complex once it's built? Those buildings are taking up such prime real estate and some look like they were meant as temporary structures even though they were built in the 1950s.

I'd love to see those facilties razed along with the Wyndham. It would be the last waterfront site that could reasonably be developed.

[ucsbgaucho]

Yes it would be big enough to serve all of SD metro area plus OC, the rationale is that its so far from the south and east counties that Lindbergh would be kept open for some flights to serve those regions.

I totally agree with you about the Miramar solution but Jacobs and Burnham probably know it just isn't politically feasible and Scripps Ranch, UTC/University City, and La Jolla people would fight it to the death.

I could see Lindberg staying open for the smaller airliners and commuter-heavy flights... Southwest, etc. Southwest might take the majority of it like Dallas Love Field. Business people would want to fly into Lindbergh still with the proximity to downtown. A mega-airport to the north would cater to the larger planes, longer flights, and increased overseas traffic. A-380 compatible, 777 and 787s, etc. East coast flights, no curfew on takeoffs or landings, etc.

I'm sure a cutoff track from the main tracks to the airport would be easy, with both MetroLink and Coaster access, or maybe they just make a stop north of Oceanside and a separate airport line that you switch to, with a satellite checkin/security center to handle just these passengers. Imagine taking the Coaster, doing your checkin and security off the site of the airport itself, and hopping off in the airport and going straight to your gate.

[spoonman]

^ Agreed.

Camp Pendleton isn't my first choice, but with the Improvements to I-5, 76, and the rail lines between SD and OC, a Camp Pendleton airport is starting to make more sense for the region.

If Camp Pendleton is opened, I'm in favor of closing Lindbergh and using Camp Pendleton and Tijuana as the two primary airports for the city. Perhaps that is the game plan in the end. Closing Lindbergh is not an entirely popular idea at the moment.

Side notes...as someone who has lived near and flown out of John Wayne many times, direct destinations are extremely limited, almost always requiring a layover. Many in OC from Costa Mesa and farther south would just as easily make the trip to the Worldport in Camp Pendleton as go to LAX. While the airport would be farther for some in Southern San Diego (though they could potentially go to TIJ (or Lindbergh for now)), the airport could benefit heavily from the premium/business markets of North County SD and South County OC. I suppose studies would have to be done to determine whether any of this is feasible. Most of San Diego's density is south of the 8 and it would have to be easy to get to Camp Pendleton (or use TIJ) for this to work.

[dales5050]

I could see Lindberg staying open for the smaller airliners and commuter-heavy flights... Southwest, etc. Southwest might take the majority of it like Dallas Love Field. Business people would want to fly into Lindbergh still with the proximity to downtown. A mega-airport to the north would cater to the larger planes, longer flights, and increased overseas traffic. A-380 compatible, 777 and 787s, etc. East coast flights, no curfew on takeoffs or landings, etc.

I'm sure a cutoff track from the main tracks to the airport would be easy, with both MetroLink and Coaster access, or maybe they just make a stop north of Oceanside and a separate airport line that you switch to, with a satellite checkin/security center to handle just these passengers. Imagine taking the Coaster, doing your checkin and security off the site of the airport itself, and hopping off in the airport and going straight to your gate.


Just my opinion but I see the opposite.

If, and it's a huge IF, San Diego were to ever put an airport in Miramar it would cost Billions. That debt would be crushing. Also, by 2050, San Diego is expected to have a population north of 2 million people.

I think you can solve 2 birds with one stone by first building out a massive world class airport at Miramar. Once completed, you demolish everything at Lindbergh and open up the development flood gates.

You could lay down a city grid with light rail running down the center. There would be no height restrictions and it would be easy to create a development code that would essentially create a 2nd downtown.

The revenue from this could easily pay off the new airport and in turn allow San Diego to grow as needed without additional freeway construction.

[JPAztec]

Does anybody know if operations within the current NAVFAC buildings north of Lane Field and south/east of the Wyndham hotel will move into the new NBC complex once it's built? Those buildings are taking up such prime real estate and some look like they were meant as temporary structures even though they were built in the 1950s.

I'd love to see those facilties razed along with the Wyndham. It would be the last waterfront site that could reasonably be developed.

They're slated to occupy one of the NBC buildings, correct. As a contractor who builds primarily for the DoD, I'm constantly getting lost in the labyrinth of cubicles that are the guts of that place. If I was the Navy, I'd be screaming to push this thing along and get a new space built. Not only is it a trashy waterfront scene, it's garbage for the employees, as well.

Side note, Papa Doug sure does love his concrete doesn't he?? Seems like everything has some sort of a stone finish, very little glass in his projects.

[Crackertastik]

Just my opinion but I see the opposite.

If, and it's a huge IF, San Diego were to ever put an airport in Miramar it would cost Billions. That debt would be crushing. Also, by 2050, San Diego is expected to have a population north of 2 million people.

I think you can solve 2 birds with one stone by first building out a massive world class airport at Miramar. Once completed, you demolish everything at Lindbergh and open up the development flood gates.

You could lay down a city grid with light rail running down the center. There would be no height restrictions and it would be easy to create a development code that would essentially create a 2nd downtown.

The revenue from this could easily pay off the new airport and in turn allow San Diego to grow as needed without additional freeway construction.

Just for shits and giggles. As you described.

http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u429/Erik_Eveleigh/Copy%20of%20cityskyline2_zpsmfeatehn.png

http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u429/Erik_Eveleigh/Copy%20of%20skyline3_zpselnkwpuh.png

http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u429/Erik_Eveleigh/Copy%20of%20cityskyline1_zpswy2zc80k.png

[dales5050]

Just for shits and giggles. As you described.

http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u429/Erik_Eveleigh/Copy%20of%20cityskyline2_zpsmfeatehn.png



How awesome would that be!!!!!!

You could even do a 'central park' that would run the entire length of city blocks after 3 or 4 blocks facing the bay. Or flip it and do a park the entire run in front of 3 or 4 blocks.

[Crackertastik]

Regarding Manchester's plans, I happen to like the aesthetics of the development. Yes it's Rockefeller like and doesn't have a historic relavency in San Diego but I think the alternative of a more glass heavy facade would begin to create a Vancouver like monotone visual. Not appealing in my view.

My problem is with the uses of the project. The 1200 room hotel is silly and honestly a bad location for such a hotel... well removed from the conv center and the opposite end of where the likely expansion will occur. It will not do well. Plus, if the expansion occurs, expect 500 more Hilton rooms, 1500 more Mariott Rooms to come. The hotel market for downtown is strong for group hotels but Christ. That is beyond a healthy amount of new supply and each of the existing hotels will struggle as a result.

What happened to the museum? Why not add more office, in addition to the Navy allocation? - the waterfront has to be attractive to tenants. Why not timeshare, as urban timeshare developments are becoming hugely popular in tourist markets. Or a second small scale luxury hotel. Create some synergy for the facility and more high end demand to go along with the new Ritz in development.

I understand the main reason is likely the port and their overbearing restrictions but this project could be much more interesting if it had a bit more diversity to it.

[dales5050]

My problem is with the uses of the project. The 1200 room hotel is silly and honestly a bad location for such a hotel... well removed from the conv center and the opposite end of where the likely expansion will occur. It will not do well. Plus, if the expansion occurs, expect 500 more Hilton rooms, 1500 more Mariott Rooms to come. The hotel market for downtown is strong for group hotels but Christ. That is beyond a healthy amount of new supply and each of the existing hotels will struggle as a result.

Not sure I agree.

Right now a lot of the downtown 'hip' hotels are booked by regional folks doing a weekend out. They draw from as far as Temecula for a Fri/Sat stay. Not many families check into the Hard Rock and I think San Diego has a good business for this.

Then there is a lot of family traffic that gets spread out to poor locations or forced to stay at the beach when they come to the area for things like the Zoo, Sea World and Wild Animal Park. Many are forced to stay in random locations around the city due to hotels being full at the prime locations. I am sure Mom and Dad would rather walk with the kids to 200 places to eat downtown than to drive 2 minutes to a crappy place in Hotel Circle.

Lastly, the mega hotels have their own ball rooms and conference rooms. This plays to wedding season, which runs almost the entire year and smaller conferences that want 'San Diego' but can't book the convention center.

I think the last group is the biggest underserved market. I have been to 20+ trade shows in NYC but have never stepped foot into the NYC convention center. It's always been a 300-750 person type event that's been done at a large hotel.

[dl3000]

Just for shits and giggles. As you described.

http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u429/Erik_Eveleigh/Copy%20of%20cityskyline2_zpsmfeatehn.png

http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u429/Erik_Eveleigh/Copy%20of%20skyline3_zpselnkwpuh.png

http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u429/Erik_Eveleigh/Copy%20of%20cityskyline1_zpswy2zc80k.png

That would be really impressive. I always imagined there could be a greenbelt to follow the footprint of the original runway to honor the old airport and its place in aviation history so to speak.

Only way the City could come up with the funding up front would be bonds (or if the federal government ever came up with an infrastructure bank). Billions of dollars in bonds would be a tough sell.

Also, I imagine if Lindbergh was out of the picture, what kind of height limit if any would North Island impose? I guess since it's one way in one way out maybe there wouldn't be one, which would be great. This is my favorite thing to dream about future SD though, and that layout would be incredible.

[Streamliner]

They're slated to occupy one of the NBC buildings, correct. As a contractor who builds primarily for the DoD, I'm constantly getting lost in the labyrinth of cubicles that are the guts of that place. If I was the Navy, I'd be screaming to push this thing along and get a new space built. Not only is it a trashy waterfront scene, it's garbage for the employees, as well.

Side note, Papa Doug sure does love his concrete doesn't he?? Seems like everything has some sort of a stone finish, very little glass in his projects.

Thanks for the info! Working in those old buildings would be depressing, but the location must make up for it some.

And you're right about Doug Manchester's aesthetic choices. Some of those renderings really remind me of the Hyatt. And he really likes the french roof with a copper patina look (NBC's Office 4A and the Hyatt both have this).

[spoonman]

Why not add more office, in addition to the Navy allocation?

There is 865,000SF of office in addition to the Navy's pacific headquarters building. I am in favor of building office, but this is a very healthy office development.

[SDfan]

Regarding...

A large, regional airport at Camp Pendleton, I'm totally for it. It was my favorite realistic option (Miramar is my favorite fantasy option) during the airport search in 2006. However, Ontario Intl Airport may be a warning for us on preemptive expansion. LAX bought that airport as a sort of annex back in the day, and it never took off as a real alternative for LA/IE/RS travelers. We would need to do extensive studies and research to see if people really would make a point to fly out of northern SD, and so far Carlsbad hasn't proven too promising either.

Closing SAN - not going to happen. A majority of the city loves Lindbergh for it's deficiencies: small size, central location, easy navigation, etc. Selling them on a supplemental airport is a stretch, trying to get them to close SAN would be nearly impossible.

Converting SAN into an urban center: love it, but no. The best we could hope for would be a liberty station-like development. Low-rise construction, maybe 5 stories max. Maybe. Golden Hill residents have been grumbling about Pinnacle on the Park, what do you think the well-to-do in Bankers and Mission Hills would say if they were told their sweeping bay views would be obliterated by a wall of high-rises? It would be Bay Park all over again. I could easily see a Cory Briggs type coming up with a ballot initiative to convert SAN into a park or nature preserve for fairy shrimp. No EIR would be able to support such a massive redevelopment in central AND bayfront SD in an era of rampant CEQA abuses. It's a lovely idea, but I just don't see how you'd get people on board.

Love the mock up though, props to that. :cheers:

[SDfan]

Oh! A note on the hotel market in SD. According to people I know who work in that industry, SD is deficient in hotel rooms. Our market has a ridiculously high occupancy rate, and with the difficulty in building new hotels (or anything else for that matter) any new units are actually welcome. So it's not surprising Manchester has such a huge hotel planned for the site, because the market could theoretically support it, and any other new construction on the bayfront.

[mello]

^^^ I agree with you and Dales: SD is almost like Vegas keep on building and we'll fill em up. Just kidding I don't think we could absorb 15k new hotel rooms but 8k in and around downtown over the next 10 years no problem. I also look forward to those idiot squatters finally getting kicked out of De Anza Cove and a mega resort going in there. The view corridor towards the SW on that property is epic, its the longest stretch of water on Mission Bay.

San Diego will continue to be a popular tourist destination as people look for convenient close in trips by passing Hawaii and more tropical distant locales for poor man's tropical SD beaches lol, hey our ocean water keeps getting warmer every summer!

SDFAN: Regarding highrises on what is now SAN, it wouldn't block bay views from Bankers Hill it would block the views of far western Mission Hills to the North of Washington street who have to look south to the bay and ocean. It wouldn't really block water views of Point Loma or Bankers Hill residents. It would just block their views of eachother (Hills on both sides of runway). I do agree with you though it would take 30 years to figure out what to do with SAN if it were ever closed.

Why are you saying Palomar hasn't been doing well, they haven't even really given it a chance to thrive it can't take 737's right now. Look at how well Ft. Lauderdale does in Miami, they built it out with a legit runway and terminal and it does great.

[HurricaneHugo]

Beautiful shot of San Diego by the new courthouse I found on reddit by user NegligentEntrustment

http://i.imgur.com/zb6L7if.jpg

Still too many low rises for my liking

[mello]

That part of town really needs to fill in and the Ash street corridor east of there as well has so many parking lots and crappy one or two floor structures that are obviously tear downs. With Little Italy becoming one of the hottest urban neighborhoods west of the Mississippi and easily walkable from this area I don't see why more developers aren't swooping in.

Oh and SDfan: Why are people in Golden Hill complaining about Pinnacle at the Park? It is West of Sherman Heights not Golden Hill and its west of I-5 don't they know thats fair game for going up to 500ft. I thought part of the appeal of GH was views of the skyline???

[dales5050]

Camp Pendleton isn't my first choice, but with the Improvements to I-5, 76, and the rail lines between SD and OC, a Camp Pendleton airport is starting to make more sense for the region.

If Camp Pendleton is opened, I'm in favor of closing Lindbergh and using Camp Pendleton and Tijuana as the two primary airports for the city. Perhaps that is the game plan in the end. Closing Lindbergh is not an entirely popular idea at the moment.


Does anyone know how much of an investment it would make to increase the speeds of the Coaster? I know the slow spot is between Old Town and Sorrento Valley. That run takes about 20 minutes.

The reason I ask is it's about 1hr from Santa Fe Depot to Oceanside. A Camp Pendleton extension would be add maybe another 10min.

I would think you would want the trip to be closer to 30 to 40 minutes. It takes about 30 minutes from the Embarcadero to SFO on the Bart. Santa Fe to Tijuana is about an hour as well.


I think SDfan is right. 1hr travel to either airport might make it impossible to close SAN. :(


Too bad North Island is not an option.....

[tyleraf]

Maybe the ideal situation would just be a floating airport, as proposed many times in the past. If the prices went down for construction, it would be the best option as it could still be located near the city, without the problems that Lindbergh causes.

[Streamliner]

Does anyone know how much of an investment it would make to increase the speeds of the Coaster? I know the slow spot is between Old Town and Sorrento Valley. That run takes about 20 minutes.

The reason I ask is it's about 1hr from Santa Fe Depot to Oceanside. A Camp Pendleton extension would be add maybe another 10min.
.

They've been working on double tracking the entire line from Santa Fe Depot up past L.A. This map (http://lossanmap.sandag.org/) summarizes all of the projects they've been working on. These are mainly smaller upgrades but they should help speed things up quite a bit once they're done. They're planning on straightening out a lot of the curves around Miramar that slows trains down. 20 years of work though... I wish we'd prioritize all of our transit projects first. I think all of the "big" ideas like tunneling under Del Mar or UTC were ruled out though.

They're thinking of adding a COASTER stop at Pendelton. A fact sheet for the project is here (http://www.gonctd.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Camp-Pendleton-COASTER-Transit-Center-Fact-Sheet-.pdf). It's in the very early stages.

[mello]

Streamliner: How can they double track through South Del Mar? The tracks are literally on the edge of a cliff and I don't see how it could possibly be double tracked there.

[Streamliner]

Streamliner: How can they double track through South Del Mar? The tracks are literally on the edge of a cliff and I don't see how it could possibly be double tracked there.

You're right, it looks like they aren't double tracking the entire line, but it should be enough to really help with congestion. The segment from north Del Mar to Sorrento Valley appears to be staying single-tracked. Just some bluff stabilization and bridge replacements. They've always talked about a tunnel through Del Mar there, so maybe it's not worth the fight to double track through there at the moment. Though I doubt either will happen.