Tempe Development Thread

[ASU Diablo]

FOX 10 News had a profile on Robert Sarver and shared his thoughts on future of USAC. Seems like he's pretty adamant on a new arena:

Sarver is already talking about building a new arena; he says the current arena is now the smallest building in terms of square footage in the National Basketball Association.

"It's possible to re-tool it but it would be a very poor investment. In some ways it's like an old house, the bathrooms are too small, the kitchen is too small, you don't have enough storage... and does it really make sense to put $250 million into redoing a facility that just won't be right when you're done, or would you rather spend $450 or $500 million and have a brand new one that can really take you for the next 30 years," he said.

http://www.fox10phoenix.com/story/28086005/2015/02/11/on-the-court-with-suns-owner-robert-sarver

[exit2lef]

^

His unfavorable comments about "an old house" are unsurprising given the Suns' demolition of two historic hotels to make way for a VIP parking lot.

[PHXFlyer11]

FOX 10 News had a profile on Robert Sarver and shared his thoughts on future of USAC. Seems like he's pretty adamant on a new arena:



http://www.fox10phoenix.com/story/28086005/2015/02/11/on-the-court-with-suns-owner-robert-sarver

Why is this posted in the Tempe thread? Also, this was discussed weeks ago (and is still being discussed) in the Phoenix thread.

[ASUSunDevil]

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2015/02/20/state-farm-exec-transit-helped-tempe-get-hub/23734761/

[DevilsRider]

Both the final (eastern-most) Marina Heights building and SALT have started going vertical. The two central Marina Heights buildings look like their exteriors are nearly complete, and the western-most building is starting to glass up the section above the parking garage.

Also, Hayden Ferry 3 has begun covering with glass, at least on the west side. It's looking VERY nice at that corner, and hard to believe that there was a dirt/grass lot there last summer. Also hard to believe a building that size could fit in what always seemed like a not-large footprint from the ground. Looking good!

[PHXFlyer11]

Both the final (eastern-most) Marina Heights building and SALT have started going vertical. The two central Marina Heights buildings look like their exteriors are nearly complete, and the western-most building is starting to glass up the section above the parking garage.

Also, Hayden Ferry 3 has begun covering with glass, at least on the west side. It's looking VERY nice at that corner, and hard to believe that there was a dirt/grass lot there last summer. Also hard to believe a building that size could fit in what always seemed like a not-large footprint from the ground. Looking good!

Looks like the 10th and final floor is going up at HFL 3. I hope the Marriot AC breaks ground soon. The project on the north side of the lake is also close to major construction, looks like they are doing more than pushing dirt now.

On a weird note, Tempe has not posted anything in the DRC section of their web site since 1/27. There are also no agendas for upcoming DRC meetings (or dates).

[Jjs5056]

Looks like the 10th and final floor is going up at HFL 3. I hope the Marriot AC breaks ground soon. The project on the north side of the lake is also close to major construction, looks like they are doing more than pushing dirt now.

On a weird note, Tempe has not posted anything in the DRC section of their web site since 1/27. There are also no agendas for upcoming DRC meetings (or dates).

I noticed that, too (about the DRC site).

I, too, hope the AC breaks ground to complete the entire Rio streetscape from Mill - Packard. But, I believe they were going to make design changes so I don't know if they're still needing to go back for approval before getting close to construction?

And, I agree that it's strange how HFL3 fit onto that corner; I honestly never thought anything was planned for that space until reading it here. Am excited that half of the ground level has been reserved for restaurant space... just what that entire project needs to really connect the lake with Mill.

Also, the Rio+Mill project is being built in 2 phases: the 1st phase includes the hotel and office towers, while the 2nd includes the reuse of the Hayden House. Seems like a strange approach and it's a shame that the corner of the street might sit empty for years in that case.

[TempeSilverFox]

Hey all! I went out for a bike ride this cloudy afternoon and took a few shots I wanted to share.

Marina Heights is looking awesome!

http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q599/TempeSilverFox/8b42d828-eaa1-4b15-81ee-c786d4438302_zps22194fed.jpg (http://s1165.photobucket.com/user/TempeSilverFox/media/8b42d828-eaa1-4b15-81ee-c786d4438302_zps22194fed.jpg.html)


Love this one- Sky Water is really turning out cool. I love the shapes and textures. I think it looks awesome opposite the cool geometric shapes of the TCA!


http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q599/TempeSilverFox/9627c1ac-0e1f-4118-a6ac-83c29871331b_zps05f6623d.jpg (http://s1165.photobucket.com/user/TempeSilverFox/media/9627c1ac-0e1f-4118-a6ac-83c29871331b_zps05f6623d.jpg.html)
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q599/TempeSilverFox/IMG_4297_zps0bffbfee.jpg (http://s1165.photobucket.com/user/TempeSilverFox/media/IMG_4297_zps0bffbfee.jpg.html)
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q599/TempeSilverFox/IMG_4276_zps15b696a7.jpg (http://s1165.photobucket.com/user/TempeSilverFox/media/IMG_4276_zps15b696a7.jpg.html)
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q599/TempeSilverFox/IMG_4275_zps20ca0d5d.jpg (http://s1165.photobucket.com/user/TempeSilverFox/media/IMG_4275_zps20ca0d5d.jpg.html)

Here is the Lodge - where Sail Inn used to be. It's coming along nicely! And of course across the street is the Yard at Farmers Art District / Culinary Dropout etc.

http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q599/TempeSilverFox/IMG_4281_zps8bfac5e0.jpg (http://s1165.photobucket.com/user/TempeSilverFox/media/IMG_4281_zps8bfac5e0.jpg.html)
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q599/TempeSilverFox/IMG_4279_zps6de1f262.jpg (http://s1165.photobucket.com/user/TempeSilverFox/media/IMG_4279_zps6de1f262.jpg.html)

Here is Hayden Ferry 3 with the first two floors of glass in!

http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q599/TempeSilverFox/IMG_4283_zps9ebfce58.jpg (http://s1165.photobucket.com/user/TempeSilverFox/media/IMG_4283_zps9ebfce58.jpg.html)
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q599/TempeSilverFox/IMG_4285_zpsfdfad87c.jpg (http://s1165.photobucket.com/user/TempeSilverFox/media/IMG_4285_zpsfdfad87c.jpg.html)

I can't remember the name of this one- but it's where Papago Stables used to be. They are definitely moving dirt around!

http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q599/TempeSilverFox/IMG_4288_zpsf62c61dd.jpg (http://s1165.photobucket.com/user/TempeSilverFox/media/IMG_4288_zpsf62c61dd.jpg.html)

[Jjs5056]

Thanks! SkyWater still looks a little cheap to me compared to the rendering, but it's definitely unique.

HFL looks great right on the intersection - I hope a really good restaurant nabs the retail space right there; even though the overall impact will be diminished with Monti's gone across the way.

Didn't happen to catch any photos of Hanover, did you?

[TempeSilverFox]

Thanks! SkyWater still looks a little cheap to me compared to the rendering, but it's definitely unique.

HFL looks great right on the intersection - I hope a really good restaurant nabs the retail space right there; even though the overall impact will be diminished with Monti's gone across the way.

Didn't happen to catch any photos of Hanover, did you?

lol I can't believe I didn't get any! I work practically right next to it! I'll try to snap a few tomorrow. It's looking pretty good. The finishing is nice. SkyWater's architecture for me makes up any deficiencies with materials... It just looks cool! The angles... the layout... I dunno, I just really like it.

[michael85225]

Wow, look at Tempe! The city is changing and progressing so fast that it's hard to keep up. This is a city that is a model for any suburb in the sprawling southwest region.

[azsunsurfer]

So my mom was talking to her neighbor who works for a concrete supplier. She said they won the bid for the AC Marriott but what was more interesting was that she said the job included adding a few more stories of parking to the parking garage. That seems interesting...I can kinda understand how they will need more parking however I am not sure how a taller garage is going to look.

[PHXFlyer11]

I noticed that, too (about the DRC site).

I, too, hope the AC breaks ground to complete the entire Rio streetscape from Mill - Packard. But, I believe they were going to make design changes so I don't know if they're still needing to go back for approval before getting close to construction?

And, I agree that it's strange how HFL3 fit onto that corner; I honestly never thought anything was planned for that space until reading it here. Am excited that half of the ground level has been reserved for restaurant space... just what that entire project needs to really connect the lake with Mill.

Also, the Rio+Mill project is being built in 2 phases: the 1st phase includes the hotel and office towers, while the 2nd includes the reuse of the Hayden House. Seems like a strange approach and it's a shame that the corner of the street might sit empty for years in that case.

Where did you hear about design changes for AC? Hopefully they are deciding to add more height based off of all the offices going in and the news of the Omni project at USAplace failing?

That corner is set up to be the new prime corner on Mill. Once the Mill is redone with the amphitheater and the Rio+Mill towers there will be restaurants on three of the four corners. Really hope we hear something constructive on the street car soon.

[Jjs5056]

Where did you hear about design changes for AC? Hopefully they are deciding to add more height based off of all the offices going in and the news of the Omni project at USAplace failing?

That corner is set up to be the new prime corner on Mill. Once the Mill is redone with the amphitheater and the Rio+Mill towers there will be restaurants on three of the four corners. Really hope we hear something constructive on the street car soon.

Unfortunately, Rio+Mill is phased and phase II is the one that includes utilizing the old Monti's site. So, we are a ways out from having that intersection completely activated. :(

The design changes were discussed in the minutes from the last presentation. It definitely didn't include any additional height. For some reason, they felt it didn't fit the feel of HFL. I kind of liked how it wasn't a complete copy, but rather a complement. Oh well.

As far as the garage, that's horrible news. The garage already completely overwhelms the entire HFL site, especially if the once planned retail addition for Phase III is nixed, which I suppose it has been. They should add parking to the hotel 'tower' if more parking is needed.

[azsunsurfer]

It's not just for the hotel but for HFL III as well I assume...

[Jjs5056]

It's not just for the hotel but for HFL III as well I assume...

The rationale for the garage being as huge as it already is was that it was being built to meet the future demands of the development, which included more condos, a hotel, and HFL3. So, I don't see why that's changed when the hotel has been downsized and the condos cut. Maybe the condos have their own parking, I'm not sure. But, if there was going to be more parking infrastructure needed for the longterm goals, it should have been incorporated into one of the office towers a la Marina Heights, or broken into 2 separate garages with retail attached at key points and screening/foliage surrounding it.

For everything they do right, when Tempe misses the mark, they miss it bigtime. The garages at HFL, CenterPoint, and Gateway Tempe (on 3rd St) are all horrendously anti-urban.

[DevilsRider]

The rationale for the garage being as huge as it already is was that it was being built to meet the future demands of the development, which included more condos, a hotel, and HFL3. So, I don't see why that's changed when the hotel has been downsized and the condos cut. Maybe the condos have their own parking, I'm not sure. But, if there was going to be more parking infrastructure needed for the longterm goals, it should have been incorporated into one of the office towers a la Marina Heights, or broken into 2 separate garages with retail attached at key points and screening/foliage surrounding it.

For everything they do right, when Tempe misses the mark, they miss it bigtime. The garages at HFL, CenterPoint, and Gateway Tempe (on 3rd St) are all horrendously anti-urban.

I think Tempe did a parking analysis study last fall, but I can't remember if results were made public. It would be interesting to find out what the current utilization rate is, particularly at different times of day, and how much of it is HF use and how much is Mill Ave, Marquee, or other uses.

Regardless, I do agree that the best course of action would have been/would be to incorporate that new parking needed into the AC Marriott. I'm pretty sure HFL3 included one-two floors of underground parking, but I can't imagine that would be all that many stalls.

Also, every time I go by HFL, I feel like there's a bunch of extra landscaping between the garage and Rio Salado. There's got to be like 50 feet there. Maybe, if demand grew with the Mill and the Monti's development, there would be enough space for HFL to add retail fronting Rio in front of the garage? I mean, yeah, it would basically be lipstick on a pig at this point, but maybe the potential is there...

[Jjs5056]

I think Tempe did a parking analysis study last fall, but I can't remember if results were made public. It would be interesting to find out what the current utilization rate is, particularly at different times of day, and how much of it is HF use and how much is Mill Ave, Marquee, or other uses.

Regardless, I do agree that the best course of action would have been/would be to incorporate that new parking needed into the AC Marriott. I'm pretty sure HFL3 included one-two floors of underground parking, but I can't imagine that would be all that many stalls.

Also, every time I go by HFL, I feel like there's a bunch of extra landscaping between the garage and Rio Salado. There's got to be like 50 feet there. Maybe, if demand grew with the Mill and the Monti's development, there would be enough space for HFL to add retail fronting Rio in front of the garage? I mean, yeah, it would basically be lipstick on a pig at this point, but maybe the potential is there...

The HFL garage was never even an option for me or any of my friends when we would go to downtown Tempe for anything. I doubt many people would travel that far north for parking. I would also think that many would assume the parking was reserved for the office tenants and condo residents. JMO.

Regarding your second point, have you seen the north side of the garage? It's completely covered in retail and office lofts. There was no reason the same treatment couldn't have been done to the Rio Salado side, except that the development is essentially a suburban office park and not designed in an urban way AT ALL. The Marriott will also turn its butt to Rio, so any attempt to urbanize the south side of the garage is probably now futile. They were, however, supposed to add a small retail addition to the SW corner of the garage flanking the path between the garage and HFL3. I think those plans were nixed, as the only retail I see being marketed is at the ground level of the new tower. This addition would have at least made the intersection and entrance to the development inviting.

Just more reasons the streetcar - in its currently planned state - is a complete waste of money and resources. Who from HFL or Marina Heights is going to use mass transit when they have monster garages on site?

[DevilsRider]

The HFL garage was never even an option for me or any of my friends when we would go to downtown Tempe for anything. I doubt many people would travel that far north for parking. I would also think that many would assume the parking was reserved for the office tenants and condo residents. JMO.

Regarding your second point, have you seen the north side of the garage? It's completely covered in retail and office lofts. There was no reason the same treatment couldn't have been done to the Rio Salado side, except that the development is essentially a suburban office park and not designed in an urban way AT ALL. The Marriott will also turn its butt to Rio, so any attempt to urbanize the south side of the garage is probably now futile. They were, however, supposed to add a small retail addition to the SW corner of the garage flanking the path between the garage and HFL3. I think those plans were nixed, as the only retail I see being marketed is at the ground level of the new tower. This addition would have at least made the intersection and entrance to the development inviting.

Just more reasons the streetcar - in its currently planned state - is a complete waste of money and resources. Who from HFL or Marina Heights is going to use mass transit when they have monster garages on site?

Yeah, I agree, at least in the short term. Who knows, maybe new property managers come in a decade from now and decide that more retail on site would be good, and those are the only opportunities for it. Doesn't help us right now though.

Does anybody know if HFL does (or if Marina Heights will) charge employees for parking like some places do in downtown PHX, or is it more like suburban office complexes where parking is provided free as a perk? If there's a cost to the employee for parking, that's one thing that could help shift people to transit (IF good transit connections are available when Marina Heights opens, or in the future).

[apocalyptic0n3]

Does anybody know if HFL does (or if Marina Heights will) charge employees for parking like some places do in downtown PHX, or is it more like suburban office complexes where parking is provided free as a perk? If there's a cost to the employee for parking, that's one thing that could help shift people to transit (IF good transit connections are available when Marina Heights opens, or in the future).

I worked in the back office of the first floor of HFL1 (the large one behind the Bean) for a year (May 2012-May 2013); I was a developer with Xhibit before the SkyMall acquisition. When I first started there, the parking was deducted from my pay and was actually shown on my pay stubs. I think it was $22 every two weeks. This was shortly after the company had been formed and we made a huge stink about it and it disappeared for the full-time employees (I believe contract workers, paid interns, and part timers were still charged).

I never considered it would be standard for employers to charge employees for parking in HFL, though, and just assumed it was one in a long line of bad management decisions.

For the record (and this may have changed), that garage was never near capacity. Only during Sun Devil games did it ever come close. I parked along the south wall, third pole from the eastern wall, on the third floor. That floor was maybe 40% occupied on business days. Higher up and the garage was almost entirely empty and occupied mostly by people with nicer cars that didn't get the VIP spots under the garage.

Even with HFLIII and possible overflow from Marina Heights, I can't see it ever being full on normal days. Will Monti's replacement have a garage with it? That's the only thing I can think of that could maybe push it toward capacity.

EDIT: Just remembered the (I think) hotel going up to the east of the garage. That will make the garage more crowded, but unless it's a 20 story hotel filled to capacity every single day, I don't see it making that big an impact on a garage that was as empty as that one usually was.

[Jjs5056]

I worked in the back office of the first floor of HFL1 (the large one behind the Bean) for a year (May 2012-May 2013); I was a developer with Xhibit before the SkyMall acquisition. When I first started there, the parking was deducted from my pay and was actually shown on my pay stubs. I think it was $22 every two weeks. This was shortly after the company had been formed and we made a huge stink about it and it disappeared for the full-time employees (I believe contract workers, paid interns, and part timers were still charged).

I never considered it would be standard for employers to charge employees for parking in HFL, though, and just assumed it was one in a long line of bad management decisions.

For the record (and this may have changed), that garage was never near capacity. Only during Sun Devil games did it ever come close. I parked along the south wall, third pole from the eastern wall, on the third floor. That floor was maybe 40% occupied on business days. Higher up and the garage was almost entirely empty and occupied mostly by people with nicer cars that didn't get the VIP spots under the garage.

Even with HFLIII and possible overflow from Marina Heights, I can't see it ever being full on normal days. Will Monti's replacement have a garage with it? That's the only thing I can think of that could maybe push it toward capacity.

EDIT: Just remembered the (I think) hotel going up to the east of the garage. That will make the garage more crowded, but unless it's a 20 story hotel filled to capacity every single day, I don't see it making that big an impact on a garage that was as empty as that one usually was.

Yes, Rio+Mill will have an integrated parking structure as any project should in a downtown. Marina Heights also has two humungous garages attached to their buildings, so overflow had better not be happening.

The hotel is ~5 stories BTW.

[DevilsRider]

I worked in the back office of the first floor of HFL1 (the large one behind the Bean) for a year (May 2012-May 2013); I was a developer with Xhibit before the SkyMall acquisition. When I first started there, the parking was deducted from my pay and was actually shown on my pay stubs. I think it was $22 every two weeks. This was shortly after the company had been formed and we made a huge stink about it and it disappeared for the full-time employees (I believe contract workers, paid interns, and part timers were still charged).

I never considered it would be standard for employers to charge employees for parking in HFL, though, and just assumed it was one in a long line of bad management decisions.

For the record (and this may have changed), that garage was never near capacity. Only during Sun Devil games did it ever come close. I parked along the south wall, third pole from the eastern wall, on the third floor. That floor was maybe 40% occupied on business days. Higher up and the garage was almost entirely empty and occupied mostly by people with nicer cars that didn't get the VIP spots under the garage.

Even with HFLIII and possible overflow from Marina Heights, I can't see it ever being full on normal days. Will Monti's replacement have a garage with it? That's the only thing I can think of that could maybe push it toward capacity.

EDIT: Just remembered the (I think) hotel going up to the east of the garage. That will make the garage more crowded, but unless it's a 20 story hotel filled to capacity every single day, I don't see it making that big an impact on a garage that was as empty as that one usually was.

Thanks for the insider's perspective! Also curious whether transit passes were offered to employees. I know some of my old coworkers would never have paid $104 a month for a transit pass, but since my employer offered one for free, they took advantage and used it a lot instead of always driving in.

One problem Tempe faces compared to Phoenix is that we don't have express buses coming in from all parts of the Valley (or at least from other east valley cities). We're basically relying on the light rail and the Rural Road and University buses to bring people downtown from out-of-Tempe right now. I could see that changing more as more and more jobs come to Tempe (especially if Rural Road BRT and commuter rail ever happen), but for now, I think it's tough to convince somebody coming from Gilbert or South Chandler, for example, to drive to Sycamore and Main, or to park and Chandler mall and take a regular city bus subject to all the regular traffic. The Gilbert Rd light rail extension will help draw more people from east Mesa and north Gilbert, I think, but probably not so much south Gilbert or Chandler.

Which, of course, is another reason that more market-rate housing nearby is so important (which is why it's so good to see SkyWater, Hanover, SALT, Alta, the place next to the marina, and even the new Camden apartments in the last couple years). Hopefully many of these get filled up by Marina Heights, HFL, or Rio+Mill employees (and yes, not everyone will want to live there, because some people will always want to raise their kids in the suburbs, but not everyone has kids, and some people actually want to raise their kids in a more urban setting), and hopefully all these buildings don't get taken over by students. University House 2 should help with that somewhat.

[Jjs5056]

Thanks for the insider's perspective! Also curious whether transit passes were offered to employees. I know some of my old coworkers would never have paid $104 a month for a transit pass, but since my employer offered one for free, they took advantage and used it a lot instead of always driving in.

One problem Tempe faces compared to Phoenix is that we don't have express buses coming in from all parts of the Valley (or at least from other east valley cities). We're basically relying on the light rail and the Rural Road and University buses to bring people downtown from out-of-Tempe right now. I could see that changing more as more and more jobs come to Tempe (especially if Rural Road BRT and commuter rail ever happen), but for now, I think it's tough to convince somebody coming from Gilbert or South Chandler, for example, to drive to Sycamore and Main, or to park and Chandler mall and take a regular city bus subject to all the regular traffic. The Gilbert Rd light rail extension will help draw more people from east Mesa and north Gilbert, I think, but probably not so much south Gilbert or Chandler.

Which, of course, is another reason that more market-rate housing nearby is so important (which is why it's so good to see SkyWater, Hanover, SALT, Alta, the place next to the marina, and even the new Camden apartments in the last couple years). Hopefully many of these get filled up by Marina Heights, HFL, or Rio+Mill employees (and yes, not everyone will want to live there, because some people will always want to raise their kids in the suburbs, but not everyone has kids, and some people actually want to raise their kids in a more urban setting), and hopefully all these buildings don't get taken over by students. University House 2 should help with that somewhat.

You hit the nail on the head on two important things.

I completely agree that there really isn't any reliable/efficient mass transit option for a good majority of commuters who work in downtown Tempe. There is, of course, a group that may be use light rail from the west side as well as one that utilizes one of the Apache park-n-rides; but for most residents of the East Valley (where I'd wager much of their workforce is living), using their car is really the simplest way of getting down there. That's why there are several options Tempe could have chosen to prioritize for their next transit initiative over this streetcar, which is an absolutely redundant route when you consider the mix of light rail, local buses, Orbitz, and the fact that using a bike - or even walking in some cases - will be faster than using the streetcar. The best medium-term plan, IMO, would have been prioritizing a BRT system with 2 initial lines: 1 from Ray Rd - McDowell (providing access to downtown to Chandler, South Tempe, North Tempe and South Scottsdale residents, and connecting the Civic Plaza on Southern and SkySong on McDowell to the greater network), 1 from a beefed up transit center at University/Rural that heads down Broadway to Priest/Alameda with an eventual terminus at Baseline (connecting Fountainhead and Arizona Mills).

I also completely agree re: market rate housing downtown. Most people disagree with me when I criticize prime real estate downtown or along the Apache Corridor being used for either student housing or lowrise residential projects. But, this real estate is extremely limited, and having a good-sized population of permanent/year-round, working professionals living in the core is an extremely important goal toward achieving the vibrant, sustainable and urban city Tempe wants to become. Student housing projects are great for providing foot traffic Sep - May, but they don't have the purchasing power to bring the kind of retail needed for Tempe to make the next leap: a grocery store, home goods, more clothing options, etc. And, while the projects you listed are good additions and a step in the right direction, any future residential really needs to be as high/dense as possible given the limited amount of space left to accomplish this.

[PHXFlyer11]

I don't believe that the type of people who work in Class A office buildings are interested in taking the bus from South Tempe, Scottsdale, etc.

Rail is different. I think many would consider rail if it was convenient for them. I don't believe this is much different in other major cities. Subways are considered acceptable transit for white collar folks, but buses are not in the major of cities.

[Obadno]

Does anybody know if HFL does (or if Marina Heights will) charge employees for parking like some places do in downtown PHX, or is it more like suburban office complexes where parking is provided free as a perk? If there's a cost to the employee for parking, that's one thing that could help shift people to transit (IF good transit connections are available when Marina Heights opens, or in the future).

IF parking isnt free at Marina I will personally hunt downt he executives here and force them too make it free.:hell:

[Jjs5056]

I don't believe that the type of people who work in Class A office buildings are interested in taking the bus from South Tempe, Scottsdale, etc.

Rail is different. I think many would consider rail if it was convenient for them. I don't believe this is much different in other major cities. Subways are considered acceptable transit for white collar folks, but buses are not in the major of cities.

I'm not talking about regular buses, I'm talking about bus rapid transit with dedicated lanes, raised platforms for boarding, etc. It eliminates may of the issues that normal city buses have that cause them to have a perceived stigma. There's no evidence to support that this can't be just as successful of a mass transit option to something like light rail; in LA, which is far more upscale and car-loving, a watered down version of BRT has been extremely successful. It's a much more cost-effective solution, and would be implemented much quicker than light rail. There have also already been studies down that prove the numbers don't justify an investment in light rail along Rural/Scottsdale Rd, with BRT being highlighted as the most likely candidate.

Without commuter rail, people are going to need to be open to other modes of mass transit beyond light rail.

BRT has been successful in NYC, LA, Cleveland, Kansas City, Albuquerque, and many places outside the U.S.

[exit2lef]

I'm not talking about regular buses, I'm talking about bus rapid transit with dedicated lanes, raised platforms for boarding, etc. It eliminates may of the issues that normal city buses have that cause them to have a perceived stigma. There's no evidence to support that this can't be just as successful of a mass transit option to something like light rail; in LA, which is far more upscale and car-loving, a watered down version of BRT has been extremely successful. It's a much more cost-effective solution, and would be implemented much quicker than light rail. There have also already been studies down that prove the numbers don't justify an investment in light rail along Rural/Scottsdale Rd, with BRT being highlighted as the most likely candidate.

Without commuter rail, people are going to need to be open to other modes of mass transit beyond light rail.

BRT has been successful in NYC, LA, Cleveland, Kansas City, Albuquerque, and many places outside the U.S.

I suspect that the Rural / Scottsdale study results would have been different if rail had been a real possibility in Scottsdale. If the study focused only on Tempe and Chandler, then the numbers would trend towards rail because the critical mass to support rail would be lacking. Regardless of what any studies say, bus stigma is real and no amount of special features and dedicated lanes can erase it -- at least not in the U.S., which operates under different political, cultural, and economic realities than cities like Bogota that are often cited as BRT success stories. Yes, we should consider modes beyond light rail, but BRT is seldom the best option -- unless of course it's being used to reach vacant ground floor retail space (attempted humor about our many differences of opinion).

[Spitfiredude]

Hanover looks REALLY good. The brick matches the brick on Mill.

I like the idea of the light rail going to Skysong, but no further. I debated with people on this issue several years ago on the Phoenix/Scottsdale threads. Keeping light rail out of Old Town keeps out the rift raft - which is a primary reason the city keeps it out and why I like Old Town. The only benefit I could see it providing Scottsdale residents is ridership between Tempe and Old Town, but past that I don't see most residents using it for further transportation. Its important to remember most residents have all the necessary amenities in the downtown Scottsdale region (shopping/entertainment/grocery) and 90% of Old Town residents are not students. The connection between Skysong and ASU would be great and I could see that portion providing student transportation from South Scottsdale to ASU.

[Jjs5056]

I suspect that the Rural / Scottsdale study results would have been different if rail had been a real possibility in Scottsdale. If the study focused only on Tempe and Chandler, then the numbers would trend towards rail because the critical mass to support rail would be lacking. Regardless of what any studies say, bus stigma is real and no amount of special features and dedicated lanes can erase it -- at least not in the U.S., which operates under different political, cultural, and economic realities than cities like Bogota that are often cited as BRT success stories. Yes, we should consider modes beyond light rail, but BRT is seldom the best option -- unless of course it's being used to reach vacant ground floor retail space (attempted humor about our many differences of opinion).

Then, for a city like Tempe which wants to be a leader in sustainability and mobility beyond the car, it will be nearly impossible to create a successful and efficient mass transit network that moves people from the north and south sides of town to the central downtown. Trying to plan and fund light rail extensions of their own will take decades, commuter rail is too reliant on regional buy-in, and while streetcar had the potential to become a relevant part of the overall transit system, their 40 year plan for it is mind-blowingly awful.

What do you suggest for a city like Tempe that still has the majority of its neighborhoods disconnected from mass transit, and has several key employment/neighborhood centers that need to be accessible in a successful system?

I don't think BRT is the *best* solution. But, when dollars are tight and a rapid transit system desperately needed, I think it's a perfectly acceptable interim solution that performs much better than you're giving it credit for. Cities like LA and NYC wouldn't embrace these buses if there wasn't a perceived difference between them and regular city buses. If done properly, riders wouldn't even realize they were on a bus. The design, boarding process, speed, and efficiency would be nearly identical to light rail.

But, even I'll concede that ground level retail is not a requirement for BRT corridors. :)

[exit2lef]

What do you suggest for a city like Tempe that still has the majority of its neighborhoods disconnected from mass transit, and has several key employment/neighborhood centers that need to be accessible in a successful system?

I don't think BRT is the *best* solution. But, when dollars are tight and a rapid transit system desperately needed, I think it's a perfectly acceptable interim solution that performs much better than you're giving it credit for. Cities like LA and NYC wouldn't embrace these buses if there wasn't a perceived difference between them and regular city buses. If done properly, riders wouldn't even realize they were on a bus. The design, boarding process, speed, and efficiency would be nearly identical to light rail.



If we're talking Tempe acting on its own, I'd just focus on adding Orbit routes and increasing frequency on existing regular bus routes. I'd go ahead with the streetcar only if the frequency of service will be high enough (every 5-10 minutes) to be competitive with walking or bicycling. Otherwise, I'd skip the project. Streetcars in mixed traffic have a mixed record. The one in Tuscon seems a good fit for a small city; the new one in Atlanta seems less successful.

If we're talking Tempe acting in cooperation with its neighbors, then I agree that BRT might be a good *interim* solution. The existing LINK bus service in Mesa and Chandler, a sort of BRT-lite service, is doing that job well by providing connections today and preparing the area for light rail in the future. The Central Mesa light rail construction now under construction will build upon LINK and take ridership to a much higher level.

What bothers me is when BRT is advocated as a permanent alternative to LRT. That's often done by anti-transit forces who are eager to show they're pro-something rather than anti-everything. What happens then is that we get minimal BRT that fully deserves its nickname of "Build Roads Today." In those few cases that involve full BRT, including all the features you have named, then the costs approach those of LRT, especially when the short life span of buses (as compared to the much longer one of train cars) is factored in.

Even with all those features, BRT often offers a less comfortable ride than LRT. I remember a business trip I made to Boston a few years ago. Upon arrival at Logan, MBTA signs directed me to the Silver Line as the best way to travel to my hotel. I boarded Boston's BRT expecting a quick, smooth ride into Downtown. Instead, it was as noisy and bumpy as any bus ride I've ever experienced and we wasted time with a stop while the bus switched between diesel and electric power.

Having learned my lesson, when it was time to go home, I made my trip back to the airport via the Blue Line, the perfectly good heavy rail line that has served Logan for decades. I'm still trying to figure out why the MBTA was promoting the Silver Line so much, but I'm guessing it had something to with proving that its BRT was just as good as rail, when in fact it fell far short.

That said, if Chandler and/or Scottsdale can be persuaded to cooperate, then interim BRT on Rural / Scottsdale makes sense. I think Chandler will likely be interested since it already has LINK on Arizona Avenue. Scottsdale is more of a long-shot. The same forces who fight rail in that city have also denounced BRT, maybe because they see it as a precursor to rail, which is exactly what it should be.

[Jjs5056]

If we're talking Tempe acting on its own, I'd just focus on adding Orbit routes and increasing frequency on existing regular bus routes. I'd go ahead with the streetcar only if the frequency of service will be high enough (every 5-10 minutes) to be competitive with walking or bicycling. Otherwise, I'd skip the project. Streetcars in mixed traffic have a mixed record. The one in Tuscon seems a good fit for a small city; the new one in Atlanta seems less successful.

If we're talking Tempe acting in cooperation with its neighbors, then I agree that BRT might be a good *interim* solution. The existing LINK bus service in Mesa and Chandler, a sort of BRT-lite service, is doing that job well by providing connections today and preparing the area for light rail in the future. The Central Mesa light rail construction now under construction will build upon LINK and take ridership to a much higher level.

What bothers me is when BRT is advocated as a permanent alternative to LRT. That's often done by anti-transit forces who are eager to show they're pro-something rather than anti-everything. What happens then is that we get minimal BRT that fully deserves its nickname of "Build Roads Today." In those few cases that involve full BRT, including all the features you have named, then the costs approach those of LRT, especially when the short life span of buses (as compared to the much longer one of train cars) is factored in.

Even with all those features, BRT often offers a less comfortable ride than LRT. I remember a business trip I made to Boston a few years ago. Upon arrival at Logan, MBTA signs directed me to the Silver Line as the best way to travel to my hotel. I boarded Boston's BRT expecting a quick, smooth ride into Downtown. Instead, it was as noisy and bumpy as any bus ride I've ever experienced and we wasted time with a stop while the bus switched between diesel and electric power.

Having learned my lesson, when it was time to go home, I made my trip back to the airport via the Blue Line, the perfectly good heavy rail line that has served Logan for decades. I'm still trying to figure out why the MBTA was promoting the Silver Line so much, but I'm guessing it had something to with proving that its BRT was just as good as rail, when in fact it fell far short.

That said, if Chandler and/or Scottsdale can be persuaded to cooperate, then interim BRT on Rural / Scottsdale makes sense. I think Chandler will likely be interested since it already has LINK on Arizona Avenue. Scottsdale is more of a long-shot. The same forces who fight rail in that city have also denounced BRT, maybe because they see it as a precursor to rail, which is exactly what it should be.

There's no way the Tempe streetcar will be competitive with walking and biking (especially biking - which they're so proud of making the streetcars accomodating to bikes :uhh:). It's completely redundant with the Orbit system and light rail.

And, yes, by Tempe, I was imagining a Ray-McDowell route. It just seems like in the push for light rail in every community, other modes are completely ignored. BRT in that corridor (and Fountainhead/AZ Mills) would at least provide a quicker and cheaper mass transit option which is becoming more and more important as downtown urbanizes. By all means, plan for a future rail conversion, but work on solutions for the present.

Of course, for rail to be effective, it really needs to be built more efficiently than the starter line with fewer stops, 100% light priority, or somehow - someway - built with the capability for express trains since it inevitably is going to be used as a commuter system during peak hours.

Thanks for the review of Boston's BRT. The supporters of it seem to make quite a good sales pitch.

[Jjs5056]

On 2nd thought, I think my ideal plan would be:

1. "Arterial Bus Transit" from McDowell - Ray; a watered-down version of BRT to provide immediate access to a cost-effective mass transit option that provides a connection to LRT for northern/southern Tempe residents. This would mean using simply restriping existing ROV to include an HOV lane, giving these buses signal priority, and installing mid-grade bus stations. This corridor is likely never going to have the demand for light rail, nor does it have redevelopment opportunities along the way, so might as well just use it to provide a more efficient link to the light rail.
2. Plan for future heavy rail along the Price Corridor. Rather than trying to force a commuter solution along Rural Rd, why not plan for a true high capacity, high efficiency mode along a corridor that has major employment centers along its route from Chandler through Scottsdale? This could connect to Arterial Bus Transit at Baseline (looping around Priest to University and back to Price), University, and McDowell, and to light rail at Apache.

And, some news. An affordable housing project for veterans is planned for 8th Street/Rural in Tempe. 4 stories high, with 5 market rate 3-level live/work units. Sounds like a great project, and the live/work units will be a great addition to 8th Street as the streetscape project transforms the area.

http://documents.tempe.gov/sirepub/cache/1207/ykd11dalhblizfn0qn0ao33f/1923832702252015102558595.PDF

[PHX31]

/\ Not a bad new project. I like it for that street. Speaking of the area... what's the deal with that large project at Terrace & Rural? Any news? (It has possibly been talked about recently, but I can't keep up with all of the different names of these projects.)

[Jjs5056]

/\ Not a bad new project. I like it for that street. Speaking of the area... what's the deal with that large project at Terrace & Rural? Any news? (It has possibly been talked about recently, but I can't keep up with all of the different names of these projects.)

Actually, there hasn't been an update on that project in a good year+ unfortunately. I think it's essentially dead, which is a shame because that's prime real estate across from the transit center and could've set the trend for more of an urban feel to Rural Road/future projects.

[PHXFlyer11]

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2015/02/25/chicago-bank-bringing-regional-operations-1-000.html

They are paying Tempe $7M for naming rights on the Arts Center. Too bad this project is nowhere near the arts center. Imagine if GoDaddy, Avnet and Northern Trust were in downtown Tempe...

[HX_Guy]

Anyone catch this? Tempe is killing it these days! Too bad this couldn't have ended up being a tower somewhere by the lake.

Northern Trust bringing $95M regional operations, 1,000 jobs to Tempe

Chicago-based international bank Northern Trust, is building a $95 million, 450,000-square-foot three-building regional operations center in Tempe.

The Tempe City Council is getting ready to consider a package deal from Northern Trust that brings 1,000 jobs paying an average of $82,000 to the city's Discovery Business Campus at Elliot Road and Loop 101.

A formal announcement is scheduled for Friday morning.

The council has the development agreement on its agenda for Feb. 26. Part of the deal is a $7.3 million government property lease excise tax (GPLET), which the bank will turn around and use to buy naming rights to the Tempe Center for the Performing Arts for 20 years.

Northern Trust, which has branches in Phoenix, Scottsdale and Tucson, will start construction on the first half of a 150,000-square-foot building next month in the Wentworth Property Co. 135-acre development. The four-story modernistic building was designed by Davis in Tempe.

With the first portion of the offices completed in 2016, Northern Trust is required to complete the second half of the building by April 2017. The second 150,000-square-foot building and an associated parking garage is slated for construction in 2018 with the final building to be occupied before March, 2022.

A Northern Trust spokesperson said that the regional operations center will house front, middle and back office positions, but confirmed that the average salaries would meet the $82,000 the city council expects.

Tempe, for its part, is waiving up to $250,000 in expedited plan review fees. The city is rebating fees the developer will pay, but withholding payment until leasing documents are executed.


http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2015/02/25/chicago-bank-bringing-regional-operations-1-000.html

[Jjs5056]

Yea, that stupid Discovery Campus is like the Tempe Marketplace of the office market in Tempe. For a city that talks so much about sustainability and wanting to improve its urban downtown, it sure has no problem letting suburban developments get built and leach off that core.

A tower on Ash/3rd would have looked great, next to US Airways and the future Rio+Mill tower, and close to the TCA that they're naming.

[Spitfiredude]

Why are they going to have this company have naming rights for TCA. At the very least, it could have been a DT Tempe tenant (State Farm or American or First Solar, etc.). This development in Discovery is what would have been perfect at Liberty. Not very urban, but still mid-rise height. This could have been a 15-20 story building in Downtown Tempe or along the lake...or 2-3 8-12 story buildings in a master planned development along the lake.

On the bright side, the average salary is $83k. That's pretty good for 1000 jobs. It seems the valley is slowly, but surely beginning to see a trend in higher end jobs. Tempe is at the forefront of this, hopefully downtown Phoenix will follow suite soon...

[TempeSilverFox]

As promised, here are some shots of the Hannover Apartments. I asked one of the construction workers when it was supposed to be done and he replied by July!

http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q599/TempeSilverFox/IMG_4312_zps5cbsuzbm.jpg (http://s1165.photobucket.com/user/TempeSilverFox/media/IMG_4312_zps5cbsuzbm.jpg.html)
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q599/TempeSilverFox/IMG_4307_zps0znegl5m.jpg (http://s1165.photobucket.com/user/TempeSilverFox/media/IMG_4307_zps0znegl5m.jpg.html)
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q599/TempeSilverFox/IMG_4306_zpstg51l3jw.jpg (http://s1165.photobucket.com/user/TempeSilverFox/media/IMG_4306_zpstg51l3jw.jpg.html)
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q599/TempeSilverFox/IMG_4305_zpsqoqkagsy.jpg (http://s1165.photobucket.com/user/TempeSilverFox/media/IMG_4305_zpsqoqkagsy.jpg.html)

[Obadno]

Anyone catch this? Tempe is killing it these days! Too bad this couldn't have ended up being a tower somewhere by the lake.



http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2015/02/25/chicago-bank-bringing-regional-operations-1-000.html

This explains why the dirt started moving here a few weeks ago, I am at Discovery in the State Farm Offices (our "temoporary" location one of four) its nice to see big companies move here but I am still disapointed that Downtown cant get some of this improvement.

It sucks that all of the Buisness locate at Scottsdale Airpark or the Price Corridor.

Jobs are good dont get me wrong but I thought Stanton would do a better job getting things downtown.

Imagine iff all this officepace had been built/leased downtown, State Farm, Paypal, USAA, Discover,

All of these companies have huge opperations here but locate in suburban locations we would be talking about multiple 20+ story towers in the core if they all had located there.

[Jjs5056]

In spite of it being a bit claustrophobic-looking on 6th Street, I have to say I am impressed with Hanover. The finishes look very and the brick adds a nice connection to the existing downtown form.

Does it appear that the entrance is at the corner of Maple and 5th Street?

I still wish this had been built on a street like Farmer instead of adjacent to the tallest building in the city; and, I'll always regard the lack of retail facing W6 as a missed opportunity; but, a parking lot has been replaced with a very attractive project being marketed toward working professionals which is vital to downtown's success... ~300 year-round residents adding foot traffic to the area will be a BIG deal. W6 sparked a huge surge in new businesses when it opened, and I expect that this project will have a similar impact if not more.

[azsunsurfer]

I still don't have an idea why everyone is hatin' on Discovery... It is an INFILL site after-all. Look at the context...this is definitely more urban than anything around there (mixed use- office, light manufacturing, retail and eventually hotels). Agreed with the notion (higher paying) jobs are jobs. These people will need places to live/ places to shop/ eat, etc. which will have a positive impact on other types of development in the region. Look at the bigger picture folks...Tempe really needs to have projects on these sites to help its ultimate goal of becoming more urban.

[azsunsurfer]

By the way, I can't see that link for the veteran housing project, anyone post a rendering or different link?

[dtnphx]

Tempe is not Sim City. We don't need a gleaming high rise on every block. There are needed and acceptable uses like Discovery still needed in this town.

[Obadno]

I still don't have an idea why everyone is hatin' on Discovery... It is an INFILL site after-all. Look at the context...this is definitely more urban than anything around there (mixed use- office, light manufacturing, retail and eventually hotels). Agreed with the notion (higher paying) jobs are jobs. These people will need places to live/ places to shop/ eat, etc. which will have a positive impact on other types of development in the region. Look at the bigger picture folks...Tempe really needs to have projects on these sites to help its ultimate goal of becoming more urban.

I toatally agree, whats better, a defucnt Microchip plant surounded by empty surface parking and dirt lots

OR

A high class buisness park with all A+ tennants, retail, hotels and multi story office strucutres?

Its across from ASU reaserch park and betweent the two we have a nice little buisness center off the price freeway between Ray and Guadalupe.

its also within the 101 loop so its not like some far flung Exurban development, its 10-15 minutes from Scottsdale and Tempe and 20 minutes from downtwon and the airport. Overall its a good project.:tup:

Im still waiting on that chipotle to show up though

[azsunsurfer]

I toatally agree, whats better, a defucnt Microchip plant surounded by empty surface parking and dirt lots

OR

A high class buisness park with all A+ tennants, retail, hotels and multi story office strucutres?

Its across from ASU reaserch park and betweent the two we have a nice little buisness center off the price freeway between Ray and Guadalupe.

its also within the 101 loop so its not like some far flung Exurban development, its 10-15 minutes from Scottsdale and Tempe and 20 minutes from downtwon and the airport. Overall its a good project.:tup:

Im still waiting on that chipotle to show up though

Agreed! I just wish some people would live in the real world sometimes :rolleyes:

[Spitfiredude]

I want to see downtown Tempe fill up before some business park on the 101. & no one said anything about a high rise on every block, but the potential is there dude. @azsunsurfer..Discovery is NOT urban whatsoever. There is a big difference between urban and mixed use. Mixed use yes, but the buildings are encompassed by giant seas of parking lots..that is not urban.

[Jjs5056]

Why is it surprising - or bad - that people on a forum dedicated to skyscrapers and urban cities desire.... skyscrapers and the development of urban cities?

Yes, this creates jobs and brings more people into the city who may choose to live and play near their work. But, these jobs are located in the deepest part of suburbia Tempe offers, with no rapid transit options now or planned for in the future. And, those who decide to play and live in Tempe are very unlikely to choose to do so in the urbanized area of the city.

OTOH, a central location would've consolidated multiple buildings into a decent-sized tower with a smaller footprint, reducing job sprawl, adding to the urban environment, affording employees the option to use rapid transit to commute to work, and stimulating demand for more residential and retail development in downtown where these employees would be much more likely to spend their 80k salary in. What part of that is bad? I personally don't care if you love suburban office parks - different strokes. But, I wouldn't join a board dedicated to sprawl and get nasty with its members for not approving a mass transit plan or mixed use project. :shrug:

What is the rationale for the city NEEDING these uses? What inherently makes a city healthier by putting high-wage, regional HQs in a suburban, non-accessible area? That has no merit. Data centers, warehouses, and maybe call centers make sense to exist outside the core, though there are still plenty of locations like Liberty that are still centrally located but not downtown for those kinds of businesses. But, a regional HQs bringing high-wage jobs belongs in downtown.

Again, feel free to love Discovery Campus. But, getting nasty over it like a downtown location would be the worst thing ever just isn't needed.

[Jjs5056]

azsunsurfer - The Tempe site is down right now which is why the link isn't working for the 8th St Veterans project. It's 50 affordable units in 4 stories for veteran families, with a pocket park on its west side, and 5 market rate live/work units (3 stories) on its east. The project will include a whole slew of support services for the veterans. Construction isn't set to begin until mid 2016.

[mdpx]

Why is it surprising - or bad - that people on a forum dedicated to skyscrapers and urban cities desire.... skyscrapers and the development of urban cities?

Yes, this creates jobs and brings more people into the city who may choose to live and play near their work. But, these jobs are located in the deepest part of suburbia Tempe offers, with no rapid transit options now or planned for in the future. And, those who decide to play and live in Tempe are very unlikely to choose to do so in the urbanized area of the city.

OTOH, a central location would've consolidated multiple buildings into a decent-sized tower with a smaller footprint, reducing job sprawl, adding to the urban environment, affording employees the option to use rapid transit to commute to work, and stimulating demand for more residential and retail development in downtown where these employees would be much more likely to spend their 80k salary in. What part of that is bad? I personally don't care if you love suburban office parks - different strokes. But, I wouldn't join a board dedicated to sprawl and get nasty with its members for not approving a mass transit plan or mixed use project. :shrug:

What is the rationale for the city NEEDING these uses? What inherently makes a city healthier by putting high-wage, regional HQs in a suburban, non-accessible area? That has no merit. Data centers, warehouses, and maybe call centers make sense to exist outside the core, though there are still plenty of locations like Liberty that are still centrally located but not downtown for those kinds of businesses. But, a regional HQs bringing high-wage jobs belongs in downtown.

Again, feel free to love Discovery Campus. But, getting nasty over it like a downtown location would be the worst thing ever just isn't needed.

You always say this. You never accept any project as it is. Of course, we LOVE skyscrapers and urban things and infill, but not every project is appropriate for that or in the case of Discovery, a reality worth talking about. They're going there because there is room for all these people who will DRIVE to their jobs. Some will go downtown, others won't. Why lament over it time after time after time why EVERYONE is not moving downtown?

[combusean]

^ It's hard to accept most projects as is because most projects in the Phoenix area are terrible. Discovery Center could have been a transformative node for the area given the vast amount of space by developing a mix of uses but instead it's mostly a bunch of crap with acres of wasteful surface parking, no residential, and a retail/restaurant component that would excite someone from Paducah, Kentucky but nowhere else. I would *hate* working there even if I did live close by.

Seriously, how would anyone with a clue for municipal health be wowed by the first rendering on http://www.discoverybusinesscampus.com ?

Placing a few office buildings and what will likely be an anemic retail/restaurant component in a decidedly suburban area isn't doing anyone any favors. Tempe should have demanded more for one of the last large underutilized assemblies in its borders, but instead they're actually subsidizing that crap with a GPLET.

Hopefully it'll all be torn down in 30 years for the project we should be building today.

[Jjs5056]

You always say this. You never accept any project as it is. Of course, we LOVE skyscrapers and urban things and infill, but not every project is appropriate for that or in the case of Discovery, a reality worth talking about. They're going there because there is room for all these people who will DRIVE to their jobs. Some will go downtown, others won't. Why lament over it time after time after time why EVERYONE is not moving downtown?

I have no idea what you're talking about. What projects have been proposed in the suburbs that I said should be downtown? The only reason I care about this particular example is because downtown Tempe is growing at an extremely fast rate and adding another HQs would just be an added bonus. I'd like to see what kind of impact it would have on future development, etc.

And, I admitted certain developments like warehouses and data centers and manufacturing outposts are not conducive to an urban location, but nothing about a financial HQs prevents it from being built at a centralized location.

If you don't care about minimizing job sprawl, promoting transit accessibility, and adding to a dense core that's your prerogative. I just don't see why having those ideals on this forum is so bothersome?

[LocoPhoenician]

I want to see downtown Tempe fill up before some business park on the 101. & no one said anything about a high rise on every block, but the potential is there dude. @azsunsurfer..Discovery is NOT urban whatsoever. There is a big difference between urban and mixed use. Mixed use yes, but the buildings are encompassed by giant seas of parking lots..that is not urban.

I'm wondering with all these projects in Downtown Tempe how are they planning on managing the increase in traffic. It's unrealistic that the majority of people will be living and playing down there and also using public transit.

[Spitfiredude]

I'm wondering with all these projects in Downtown Tempe how are they planning on managing the increase in traffic. It's unrealistic that the majority of people will be living and playing down there and also using public transit.

110% agreed. There are two things that have always concerned me:

(1) There is an access point out of Tempe through Mill Avenue that is 100% underutilized. I expect that we may see State Farm recommend this route for their employees. As a downtown Tempe resident for the past 3 years I can tell you that it is very underutilized. It can access Loop 202 (EB) from Center Parkway and Loop 202 (WB) from Center Parkway/Priest and/or 52nd St in Phoenix. It also accesses Arcadia, and Old Town by route of Galvin Parkway and 64th St.

(2) Is there a possibility we could see an extension of Center Parkway to Rio Salado. I'm sure this would be a multi-million dollar project, but it could be worth it. In addition, you could place an on-ramp from Center Parkway to WB-202. This is a serious possibility, but the route may need some re-routing as a result of the new dam.

I am worried by 2020, Tempe could be clogged!

[Obadno]

[QUOTE=combusean;6930609]

Seriously, how would anyone with a clue for municipal health be wowed by the first rendering on http://www.discoverybusinesscampus.com ?
[QUOTE]

I dont think it was ever advertised as anything but a suburban office park

Suburban office park across from a suburban research campus off a Highway surounded by single family Mcmansions.

Id still rather have productive land over unproductive land.

I dont care how you split it Elliot and the 101 was never going to be transformed into a walkable urban blah blah blah:slob:

even if it was it would be astroturf because there is no way to get there without a car. And it isnt even that much land, certainly not enought to create a healthy neighborhood or anything.

[DevilsRider]

110% agreed. There are two things that have always concerned me:

(1) There is an access point out of Tempe through Mill Avenue that is 100% underutilized. I expect that we may see State Farm recommend this route for their employees. As a downtown Tempe resident for the past 3 years I can tell you that it is very underutilized. It can access Loop 202 (EB) from Center Parkway and Loop 202 (WB) from Center Parkway/Priest and/or 52nd St in Phoenix. It also accesses Arcadia, and Old Town by route of Galvin Parkway and 64th St.

(2) Is there a possibility we could see an extension of Center Parkway to Rio Salado. I'm sure this would be a multi-million dollar project, but it could be worth it. In addition, you could place an on-ramp from Center Parkway to WB-202. This is a serious possibility, but the route may need some re-routing as a result of the new dam.

I am worried by 2020, Tempe could be clogged!

I think you'll see the Center Parkway exit utilized a lot more once State Farm and HFL open. The only times you ever see it remotely busy are when there's big events on Mill, or when there's crashes/huge backups on the 202.

As for extending Center Parkway south, I doubt that will ever happen. Tempe's not really in the business of encouraging more freeway ramps into the city, and it would cut right next to TCA, over the brand new dam, and directly adjacent to the (still) new biking/walking bridge. Not to mention how much that would cost ($10+ million, easy). As a Tempe taxpayer, I would absolutely fight any attempt to build this if it ever came up officially.

Anyways, as you said yourself, even, the current interchange is vastly underutilized as is, and even with State Farm and HFL3, I don't see it becoming so heavily used that the large expense would be worth it.

[Leo the Dog]

^ It's hard to accept most projects as is because most projects in the Phoenix area are terrible. Discovery Center could have been a transformative node for the area given the vast amount of space by developing a mix of uses but instead it's mostly a bunch of crap with acres of wasteful surface parking, no residential, and a retail/restaurant component that would excite someone from Paducah, Kentucky but nowhere else. I would *hate* working there even if I did live close by.

Seriously, how would anyone with a clue for municipal health be wowed by the first rendering on http://www.discoverybusinesscampus.com ?

Placing a few office buildings and what will likely be an anemic retail/restaurant component in a decidedly suburban area isn't doing anyone any favors. Tempe should have demanded more for one of the last large underutilized assemblies in its borders, but instead they're actually subsidizing that crap with a GPLET.

Hopefully it'll all be torn down in 30 years for the project we should be building today.

What exactly were you hoping for at Elliot and the 101? This is about as good as it gets for upper-class suburbia.

[Obadno]

I think you'll see the Center Parkway exit utilized a lot more once State Farm and HFL open. The only times you ever see it remotely busy are when there's big events on Mill, or when there's crashes/huge backups on the 202.

As for extending Center Parkway south, I doubt that will ever happen. Tempe's not really in the business of encouraging more freeway ramps into the city, and it would cut right next to TCA, over the brand new dam, and directly adjacent to the (still) new biking/walking bridge. Not to mention how much that would cost ($10+ million, easy). As a Tempe taxpayer, I would absolutely fight any attempt to build this if it ever came up officially.

Anyways, as you said yourself, even, the current interchange is vastly underutilized as is, and even with State Farm and HFL3, I don't see it becoming so heavily used that the large expense would be worth it.


I live in old town, work at discovery center, will eventually move to Marina Heights, but starting next month im moving to a new office at Fountainhead.

My new route is fastest down 64th/68th Gavin Pkway and right down priest, I expect when I move to Marina Ill just take Hayden all the way or maybe Ill do the 68th- Mill which is usually the way I will go if im trying to get to Mill form Old town anyway. :tup:

[combusean]

It's not a small plot of land, it's 136 acres. Name a bigger underutilized plot of land in Tempe.

Discovery should have a lot less surface parking and instead have most of it in garages, and a residential component to offset the increase in traffic. That doesn't implicitly mean a "walkable neighborhood," just ought to be denser and more productively use the land.

[Obadno]

It's not a small plot of land, it's 136 acres. Name a bigger underutilized plot of land in Tempe.

Discovery should have a lot less surface parking and instead have most of it in garages, and a residential component to offset the increase in traffic. That doesn't implicitly mean a "walkable neighborhood," just ought to be denser and more productively use the land.

Well there is actually less serface parking now than there was in the original site, and instead of one tennant it is multiple with hotels( eventually) and retail

I dont think this is anywhere for tempe to make a battle for density or ideals or housing, why would any developer build apartments in their buisness park, its the price corridor theyll just go down 3 exits and build it on a lot down there.

This spot was never going to be anything but suburban usses, either a new subdivision or a shopping center or this.

Id rather have this.

[asugrad]

Updated Sun Devil Stadium renovation rendering.

I think the previous rendering from last year was better, but a renovation is needed nonetheless. Looks like they are making even less seating than before.

New:
http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/college/asu/2015/03/03/asu-football-sun-devil-stadium-pac12/24323559/

Last Year:
http://azbex.com/asu-reveals-sun-devil-stadium-renovation-plans/

[TempeSilverFox]

Good morning!
Hey- just wanted to share a couple of things I learned yesterday when the Downtown Tempe Association came to do a presentation for our leadership team at Chase yesterday.

1. USA Basketball is basically dead - for the site it was planned on (SE corner of Mill and University) but there is a possibility it might land elsewhere in downtown (but the rep was basing this on the fact that the head guy (forget his name) is from here and loves downtown Tempe.)

2. There is a project that we will all LOVE in the works for 7th street- across from House of Tricks. The rendering she showed us appears to be somewhat similar to that M7 project we saw ages ago. It includes at least one or two tall towers (more than 10 for sure) that would have apartments, a hotel and conference space. It would extend all the way from 7th Street to University - so YAY! She did not have a timeline- just that it is in the works- and hopefully we will hear more soon. She said it is going to be handled by the same group that created this project "The Nic on Fifth" in Minneapolis. See pictures of Nic on Fifth renderings below- and Google "Nic on Fifth" for more info:

http://damonfarber.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/nicollet-residences-6.jpg

http://apps.startribune.com/blogs/user_images/buchtjd_1410532239_The-Nic-on-Fifth_1649_1000x667.jpg

3. Ash and University - What has been holding this up forever is arguments about building heights. Apparently, the developer had wanted to build high- about 20 stories but the latest she had heard was some concerns about the flight path (which I don't understand because DUH West 6th is RIGHT THERE already...) and now they are planing something more along the lines of 6 stories, but allegedly Whole Foods is still in the works (I still wish Trader Joes was coming.)

4. Rio Salado and Mill - Montis - Those buildings should be starting soon according to her! They are a for sure thing!

5. Hayden Flour Mill - Just waiting on the completion of the sale of land to the developer. She quoted that ground-breaking is 5 -6 months out on that project.

8. Marina Heights / State Farm - first employees move in in October.

[DevilsRider]

Updated Sun Devil Stadium renovation rendering.

I think the previous rendering from last year was better, but a renovation is needed nonetheless. Looks like they are making even less seating than before.

Yeah, I wish they had kept the upper deck curving around toward the middle; the new version makes the upper deck just look awkward, I think.

Overall, though, I think it looks really good and even though I'm not a student anymore, I'm still excited for the "Double Inferno" student sections. Maybe they can bring the "curtain of distraction" over for field goal attempts and goal-line plays...

[DevilsRider]

Wow, thanks for all the updates, TempeSilverFox! Bummer about USA Basketball. If the 7th St development looks anything like that Nic on 5th rendering you posted, I think we'll all be pretty pleased!

The issue with flight paths, particularly for Ash/University, is incredibly stupid. Really, the FAA/City/whoever shouldn't be dictating anything in that corridor that's shorter than W6 based on flight paths. 6 stories would be a huge disappointment there; the Chase garages are 6-7 stories, so this would be shorter even than the adjacent garages.

Rio and Mill, and the flour mill, are both very exciting, and I hope both actually go through and start this year.

As for Marina Heights, October seems right on track. Two of the buildings look like the exteriors are basically finished, and all that's left to take care of is the guts and the exterior access streets, sidewalks, landscaping, etc.

Good morning!
Hey- just wanted to share a couple of things I learned yesterday when the Downtown Tempe Association came to do a presentation for our leadership team at Chase yesterday.

1. USA Basketball is basically dead - for the site it was planned on (SE corner of Mill and University) but there is a possibility it might land elsewhere in downtown (but the rep was basing this on the fact that the head guy (forget his name) is from here and loves downtown Tempe.)

2. There is a project that we will all LOVE in the works for 7th street- across from House of Tricks. The rendering she showed us appears to be somewhat similar to that M7 project we saw ages ago. It includes at least one or two tall towers (more than 10 for sure) that would have apartments, a hotel and conference space. It would extend all the way from 7th Street to University - so YAY! She did not have a timeline- just that it is in the works- and hopefully we will hear more soon. She said it is going to be handled by the same group that created this project "The Nic on Fifth" in Minneapolis. See pictures of Nic on Fifth renderings below- and Google "Nic on Fifth" for more info:

http://damonfarber.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/nicollet-residences-6.jpg

http://apps.startribune.com/blogs/user_images/buchtjd_1410532239_The-Nic-on-Fifth_1649_1000x667.jpg

3. Ash and University - What has been holding this up forever is arguments about building heights. Apparently, the developer had wanted to build high- about 20 stories but the latest she had heard was some concerns about the flight path (which I don't understand because DUH West 6th is RIGHT THERE already...) and now they are planing something more along the lines of 6 stories, but allegedly Whole Foods is still in the works (I still wish Trader Joes was coming.)

4. Rio Salado and Mill - Montis - Those buildings should be starting soon according to her! They are a for sure thing!

5. Hayden Flour Mill - Just waiting on the completion of the sale of land to the developer. She quoted that ground-breaking is 5 -6 months out on that project.

8. Marina Heights / State Farm - first employees move in in October.

[Jjs5056]

I predicted that the M7 lot would be the next site we'd hear about. As exciting as the project sounds, I have a few concerns:
1) The site has expanded since the original proposal; back during the boom, Jack in the Box wasn't interested in selling, so the development stopped just north of that building. If it is indeed going to stretch all the way to University, that is going to be one massive development! It will take up an entire city block, which has the potential to look extremely out of proportion to the rest of downtown. Superblocks also tend me to be pretty hostile to the pedestrian experience which is super important along Mill Ave. I hope that if this does end up taking over all of 7th-University, Mill-Forest (Myrtle?), that the developers are really conscious of this when it comes to the ground level, setbacks for any of the taller towers, variations in the facade, etc.
2) I question the economics behind the project if it is including a hotel and conference space; maybe it'll work since the ASU project is in limbo, but there's just a TON of existing/proposed hotel space in the immediate area that I can't imagine this site AND University/Rural both adding to the mix.

Sad to hear confirmation of what we already knew re: Ash/University given the height of the project that the City had posted in their construction/development update. That's a prime piece of real estate and could have really set the tone for future projects along Ash that should all be much higher than 6 stories; 6 stories makes sense for Farmer as a step-back before getting into the neighborhoods west of downtown, but Ash is really the only stretch left where high rises are appropriate. I can only hope that once it gets to review that additional height is recommended and that the FAA issue becomes moot. I also hope that maybe, in the end, it will be 6 stories of apartments on top of 1 floor of retail and 2-3 stories of parking since the parking was always planned to be integrated. Otherwise, ~3 stories of apartments sounds like a complete disaster.

[TempeSilverFox]

I predicted that the M7 lot would be the next site we'd hear about. As exciting as the project sounds, I have a few concerns:
1) The site has expanded since the original proposal; back during the boom, Jack in the Box wasn't interested in selling, so the development stopped just north of that building. If it is indeed going to stretch all the way to University, that is going to be one massive development! It will take up an entire city block, which has the potential to look extremely out of proportion to the rest of downtown. Superblocks also tend me to be pretty hostile to the pedestrian experience which is super important along Mill Ave. I hope that if this does end up taking over all of 7th-University, Mill-Forest (Myrtle?), that the developers are really conscious of this when it comes to the ground level, setbacks for any of the taller towers, variations in the facade, etc.
2) I question the economics behind the project if it is including a hotel and conference space; maybe it'll work since the ASU project is in limbo, but there's just a TON of existing/proposed hotel space in the immediate area that I can't imagine this site AND University/Rural both adding to the mix.



The speaker from the Downtown Tempe Association seemed to indicate that the project was not going to reach Mill Avenue. Instead it would be situated just east of Mill, along 7th Avenue - closer to House of Tricks and Myrtle. If that is the case, then it would still leave a vacant lot between Jack in the Box and Steak and Shake along Mill... to me that doesn't make any sense. The project will be large, there is no question about it, and to your point, I hope they address the street with respect and make the area engaging for pedestrians. The rendering looks cool to me!

[ciweiss]

http://wattcommunitiesaz.com/property/dorsey-lane/


http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2015/03/04/new-in-fill-developments-slated-for-phoenix-tempe.html

New in-fill developments slated for Phoenix, Tempe

Several new in-fill real estate developments have broken ground or are in the works in Phoenix and Tempe.
Santa Monica, California-based Watt Communities has broken ground on a new 51-unit urban townhome project in Tempe. It is the first of five Phoenix-area developments slated by Watt this year. The in-fill developments will total $25 million.
The Dorsey Lane townhomes are located off Broadway Road in Tempe and a mile from Arizona State University's main campus.
Steve Pritulsky, president and CEO of Watt Communities of Arizona. said the townhomse will have three levels and are slated to be completed by August.
Watt also has a 40-unit townhome project slated for the Biltmore area, 16 single family homes near 16th Street and Ocotillo Road in north central Phoenix, a 31-unit single family development near 32nd Street and Cactus Road and is planning 27 townhomes at Eighth and Roosevelt streets in downtown Phoenix.
Metrowest Development also broke ground today on a new mixed-use development called Union @ Roosevelt.
The project is on vacant lot at Roosevelt and First Avenue in downtown Phoenix.
Phoenix Mayor Greg Stanton and some city council members were at the groundbreaking.
The Metrowest project is directly on the Metro light rail line.
Metrowest Development is headed by partners Matt Seaman and Doug Gannett.

[RichTempe]

3. Ash and University - What has been holding this up forever is arguments about building heights. Apparently, the developer had wanted to build high- about 20 stories but the latest she had heard was some concerns about the flight path (which I don't understand because DUH West 6th is RIGHT THERE already...) and now they are planing something more along the lines of 6 stories, but allegedly Whole Foods is still in the works (I still wish Trader Joes was coming.)

How on earth are there concerns about flight paths for this development, but not any about the Monti's project which is even closer to those paths and just as tall? Makes absolutely no sense at all.

[DevilsRider]

Something to keep an eye on... I didn't realize the arena was over 40 years old, but having been inside there many times, it's not really that surprising

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/college/asu/2015/03/04/asu-researching-options-for-aging-basketball-arena/24394305/

By this time next season, ASU athletics officials hope to have a plan in place to renovate or replace the aging basketball arena.

Right now, the university is focused on Sun Devil Stadium, which is undergoing a $256 million makeover that will not be completed until summer 2017. ASU also is exploring venue options for its hockey program, recently elevated from a club to varsity sport.

[TempeSilverFox]

How on earth are there concerns about flight paths for this development, but not any about the Monti's project which is even closer to those paths and just as tall? Makes absolutely no sense at all.

RIGHT????? Yeah, I have given up all hope that there is a consistent and logical approach to building height in our city. That particular parcel (Ash and University) is probably about as far away from the actual flight path as you can get in Downtown Tempe. Seems like the PERFECT place to go tall! :hell:

[PHXFlyer11]

Looks like we will get to see detailed plans very soon: http://www.tempe.gov/Home/ShowDocument?id=31491

[DevilsRider]

Looks like we will get to see detailed plans very soon: http://www.tempe.gov/Home/ShowDocument?id=31491

The other two projects on there, though much more small-scale, are also intriguing. A brewery a block and a half away from TCA would be cool (and the name is awesome). I imagine development will only continue moving west from Skywater, so eventually that brewery will have apartments/condos on either side.

And replacing a single vacant house on a one-acre lot with 19 apartment units (and tandem parking to minimize pavement space) will continue the trend of higher-density projects in that neighborhood. Not too high, but for that location, I think it could be perfect.

[TempeSilverFox]

Looks like Sun Devil Stadium has yet another new look in the works. It sounds like the newest change is to loose the video ribbon that was planed and to further open things up. Check it out!

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/college/asu/2015/03/03/asu-football-sun-devil-stadium-pac12/24323559/

[MegaBass]

Looks like Sun Devil Stadium has yet another new look in the works. It sounds like the newest change is to loose the video ribbon that was planed and to further open things up. Check it out!

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/college/asu/2015/03/03/asu-football-sun-devil-stadium-pac12/24323559/

Still some questions about the SDS Project:


If the north end Student Athlete Center is a go, will the Football team's locker move there? What happens to the possible open space at Carson Student Athlete Center?
As a former member, I wish there would be some needed rehearsal/storage space for the band.
Hope there's a shade canopy of some sorts. When ESPN/Fox/PAC-12 start issuing more afternoon games for national audience fans will be griping.
I don't mind the upper deck reduction since the ticket demand is not there at the moment. Sure as initial reactions are comparing it now to Arizona Stadium but it was called for in 2007 to demo the upper deck due to corrosion. Don't know why they've left that out during this how renovation process.

[azsunsurfer]

Drove by Discovery this weekend. The first building is a steel framed one and is already topped out at 3 stories. Looks like they are moving fast on the site.

[ASUSunDevil]

Still some questions about the SDS Project:


If the north end Student Athlete Center is a go, will the Football team's locker move there? What happens to the possible open space at Carson Student Athlete Center?
As a former member, I wish there would be some needed rehearsal/storage space for the band.
Hope there's a shade canopy of some sorts. When ESPN/Fox/PAC-12 start issuing more afternoon games for national audience fans will be griping.
I don't mind the upper deck reduction since the ticket demand is not there at the moment. Sure as initial reactions are comparing it now to Arizona Stadium but it was called for in 2007 to demo the upper deck due to corrosion. Don't know why they've left that out during this how renovation process.


The north end Student Athlete Center will house strictly football. Lockers and the Tillman Tunnel will be moved to the north side.

I read that the Carson Center would then house other athletes like track & field, volleyball etc. Basketball and baseball would not use Carson as they already have their own facilities.

The SDS renderings look nice overall. I wish they could have kept the video ribbon, I felt like that was especially unique and futuristic.

[PHXFlyer11]

The north end Student Athlete Center will house strictly football. Lockers and the Tillman Tunnel will be moved to the north side.

I read that the Carson Center would then house other athletes like track & field, volleyball etc. Basketball and baseball would not use Carson as they already have their own facilities.

The SDS renderings look nice overall. I wish they could have kept the video ribbon, I felt like that was especially unique and futuristic.

I am sure the video ribbon was cut out solely due to cost, which is a shame. Most modern stadiums have video ribbons now, so we'll already be behind the times. Not to say it can't be added later but...

[Spitfiredude]

Still some questions about the SDS Project:


If the north end Student Athlete Center is a go, will the Football team's locker move there? What happens to the possible open space at Carson Student Athlete Center?
As a former member, I wish there would be some needed rehearsal/storage space for the band.
Hope there's a shade canopy of some sorts. When ESPN/Fox/PAC-12 start issuing more afternoon games for national audience fans will be griping.
I don't mind the upper deck reduction since the ticket demand is not there at the moment. Sure as initial reactions are comparing it now to Arizona Stadium but it was called for in 2007 to demo the upper deck due to corrosion. Don't know why they've left that out during this how renovation process.


Yes the football portion of the athletic center will completely move to the new athletic center. It will also serve some training facilities for other sports, but not really many other offices. Football takes up the entire 3rd floor at the current ICA, but that space will become space for other sports offices and administration. The focus of this new athletic center is football. This includes coaches offices, position meeting rooms, staff meeting rooms, offensive/defensive rooms, team room, training table, new football locker room, new equipment room, new recruiting/video offices, trainer's rooms, strength offices, strength training room (gym). As of now, there will also be a 40-50 yard field house. The ultimate goal is to move the practice fields and indoor to the northern part of the stadium. Obviously, financials dictate this, so it may not happen immediately with the renovation. The practice fields would extend from the facility west to the buttes, with some parking.

In terms of football facilities ASU lags the rest of the PAC-12 (personal rankings based off touring 7 other facilities and watching videos on others):


OREGON (1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xSlBX32jx0
WASHINGTON (8) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFtbJowjGzs
WASHINGTON STATE (11)
UTAH (6) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcLrED68g6M
ARIZONA (2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6k1EnANQ664
CALIFORNIA (9)
USC (5) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtSj_tPX4Jw
STANFORD (7)
ARIZONA STATE (4)
UCLA (3)
OREGON STATE (10)
COLORADO (12)
(Ranking to right is final PAC-12 Standings)

Colorado, UCLA, and Arizona State are all looking at new football facilties in the next 5 years. I believe the new facility could bump us up to top 3. It is nice that ASU took the time to wait to build a new facility because it gives the opportunity to mock based off other facilities.

No shade canopy over stadium...it was stupid idea, no one liked it, so it was scrapped. The networks won't issue afternoon games unless we ask for it. Obviously, its easier for them to play PAC-12 games at night and play other conferences throughout the day. Why the big networks typically take 2 at night (FOX/ESPN), and 1 during day (either FOX/ESPN/ABC/FS1). Then Pac-12 networks take 1 or 2 depending on what is left over from bigger networks

[dtnphx]

On Sunday, I was driving around Downtown Tempe and it was hopping with a festival going on at Tempe Beach Park, people out and about and just a great destination on a great spring day. What really took my breath away is how FRIGGIN' MASSIVE the Hanover project is. NY, Philly, Baltimore? That thing is as dense a flowerless chocolate cake. That is going to really add to the body count downtown. Game changer, perhaps?

[MegaBass]

The networks won't issue afternoon games unless we ask for it. Obviously, its easier for them to play PAC-12 games at night and play other conferences throughout the day. Why the big networks typically take 2 at night (FOX/ESPN), and 1 during day (either FOX/ESPN/ABC/FS1). Then Pac-12 networks take 1 or 2 depending on what is left over from bigger networks

Pac-12 football: Fewer night games, more regional broadcasts and the negotiations with ESPN and Fox Sports 1 (http://blogs.mercurynews.com/collegesports/2014/04/10/pac-12-football-fewer-night-games-more-regional-broadcasts-and-the-negotiations-with-espn-and-fox-sports-1/)

[Spitfiredude]

^ No, this was a concern, but as of now, expect it to same the same as it has the last 3 seasons (also look when this article was dated, before last season). Administrators were not happy about the alternative and it is staying the same. You will get more viewers for a game at 7 PM game broadcast nationally than a game that has UCLA in it that won't even be broadcast in Cali or nationally. See how the logic doesn't add up there. Exactly why this didn't happen. Now I think they are still trying to get more day games, but ESPN and Fox dictate this. They don't want it. It doesn't make sense for them to market games that half the country doesn't have a market for. This is why I think every P-12 team should play one of their non-conference in middle of their P-12 schedule.

[Jjs5056]

On Sunday, I was driving around Downtown Tempe and it was hopping with a festival going on at Tempe Beach Park, people out and about and just a great destination on a great spring day. What really took my breath away is how FRIGGIN' MASSIVE the Hanover project is. NY, Philly, Baltimore? That thing is as dense a flowerless chocolate cake. That is going to really add to the body count downtown. Game changer, perhaps?

I was super critical of the project and still do wish it was built on Ash instead of adjacent to W6, but I'm over it - I definitely think it will be a game-changer; I just hope that their target market is realistic and that the 341 units (which is pretty incredible) aren't all leased to students. There's no denying W6 played a huge role in turning around Mill Ave post-recession, and I think Hanover - if truly filled with a good majority of the young professional crowd - could play a similar role in bringing some diversity to the retail scene besides just bars/restaurants.

[Obadno]

I was super critical of the project and still do wish it was built on Ash instead of adjacent to W6, but I'm over it - I definitely think it will be a game-changer; I just hope that their target market is realistic and that the 341 units (which is pretty incredible) aren't all leased to students. There's no denying W6 played a huge role in turning around Mill Ave post-recession, and I think Hanover - if truly filled with a good majority of the young professional crowd - could play a similar role in bringing some diversity to the retail scene besides just bars/restaurants.

I gotta say I graduated 3 years ago and the difference of the demographics on Mill is astounding.

When I was in school no-doubt it was 100% ASU students, I was their the other day and is a mix of lots of different ages It is nice to see.

I live in Old Town, not a clubber at all, I would prefer if Scottsdale tried to emulate Tempe more and get its bar scene better. All the best bars are Downtown or in Tempe.

[Jjs5056]

Which is great. I love that there are even senior-living apartments in downtown Tempe (which the snots in Roosevelt fought so hard against). It's this mix of students, young professionals, baby boomers, and retirees that is going to make Tempe a truly cosmopolitan city.

Just think if even a small percentage of the workers at State Farm, HF3 and Rio+Mill live at SALT, SkyWater and Hanover? It's exciting and I really hope we see the dots starting to connect between Farmer and Mill, and Mill and College.

[TempeSilverFox]

I was super critical of the project and still do wish it was built on Ash instead of adjacent to W6, but I'm over it - I definitely think it will be a game-changer; I just hope that their target market is realistic and that the 341 units (which is pretty incredible) aren't all leased to students. There's no denying W6 played a huge role in turning around Mill Ave post-recession, and I think Hanover - if truly filled with a good majority of the young professional crowd - could play a similar role in bringing some diversity to the retail scene besides just bars/restaurants.

When the Downtown Tempe Association came to speak with Chase leadership last week, the speaker emphasized that Hanover is NOT allowing co-signers precisely because their target market is professional urbanites and NOT students.

I am really liking the project at this point. I can't wait to see if they add some trees and street scape to round out the project. The only thing (and I wish I had taken a better picture of it the other day) that I can't figure out is an architectural feature that fronts Maple that appears to look like a front entrance- yet there is no apparent entrance behind it... I'm not sure what it is- or where it will lead... but I'll try to snap a photo of it tomorrow and see if anyone here can figure it out...

[Jjs5056]

When the Downtown Tempe Association came to speak with Chase leadership last week, the speaker emphasized that Hanover is NOT allowing co-signers precisely because their target market is professional urbanites and NOT students.

I am really liking the project at this point. I can't wait to see if they add some trees and street scape to round out the project. The only thing (and I wish I had taken a better picture of it the other day) that I can't figure out is an architectural feature that fronts Maple that appears to look like a front entrance- yet there is no apparent entrance behind it... I'm not sure what it is- or where it will lead... but I'll try to snap a photo of it tomorrow and see if anyone here can figure it out...

That's great to hear! 341 apartments (nearly the same as the two W6 towers combined) filled with non-students is going to be awesome!

Is the feature you're talking about on Maple only, or at the corner of Maple/5th? I assumed the corner was the main entrance - is that incorrect?

A lot of projects these days are making their clubhouses, leasing offices, and fitness centers to look like true retail, so I imagine that it is own of those that you are seeing.

[Obadno]

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2015/03/11/lincoln-property-inks-srp-deal-for-papago-office.html

This is the development at Priest and Washington we've known about for a while, it is supposed to be another 3.2 million Sqft

Anyone know if this has a snowballs chance of coming to fruition or what?

Also Id like to point out in the Phoenix Development bored people that say there is no office demand..... ahem....:shrug: why cant the city get anything within its limits let alone Downtown or Midtown?

[Jjs5056]

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2015/03/11/lincoln-property-inks-srp-deal-for-papago-office.html

This is the development at Priest and Washington we've known about for a while, it is supposed to be another 3.2 million Sqft

Anyone know if this has a snowballs chance of coming to fruition or what?

Also Id like to point out in the Phoenix Development bored people that say there is no office demand..... ahem....:shrug: why cant the city get anything within its limits let alone Downtown or Midtown?

I would say the chances of it being built in its entirety are close to 0. If anything, I imagine 1 or 2 office buildings will be built at most within the current cycle. There is just way too much in the pipeline already for Tempe to absorb this project in full.

If you are referring to me in your paragraph - you've misunderstood my posts. I have been saying that there IS a strong demand for Class A office space and that downtown especially is lagging behind its suburbs when it comes to attracting tenants needed to build these projects. But, any sort of criticism seems to be met by extreme defensiveness lately. But, I totally agree. There's no reason that with the amount of office projects completed in Scottsdale, Tempe and Chandler in the last 6 years, downtown Phoenix shouldn't have been able to break ground on a single office tower since CityScape was finished.

[PHXFlyer11]

I would say the chances of it being built in its entirety are close to 0. If anything, I imagine 1 or 2 office buildings will be built at most within the current cycle. There is just way too much in the pipeline already for Tempe to absorb this project in full.

I disagree. Developer A doesn't care that Developer B & C are also planning projects. There is value in being first to market, having the best location and best facilities.

If I own that land I am developing it NOW. Why would I wait until after Mill + Rio and HFL3 are done? Then I'd be waiting out that construction and that building to fill. So I'm what... 5 years down the road at best and then have to hope that Tempe is still hot and the economy is still good? That's quite the gamble. The vacancies are 5% for class A in Tempe. You move NOW, as fast as you can. You are better off trying to win long-term leases from big companies on the merits of your project and location that trying to wait and hope that in the future vacancies of class A in Tempe fall below 5%. Good luck. That's a fool's bet.

There is also a great chance that SRP commits to a lot of that space.

[Jjs5056]

I disagree. Developer A doesn't care that Developer B & C are also planning projects. There is value in being first to market, having the best location and best facilities.

If I own that land I am developing it NOW. Why would I wait until after Mill + Rio and HFL3 are done? Then I'd be waiting out that construction and that building to fill. So I'm what... 5 years down the road at best and then have to hope that Tempe is still hot and the economy is still good? That's quite the gamble. The vacancies are 5% for class A in Tempe. You move NOW, as fast as you can. You are better off trying to win long-term leases from big companies on the merits of your project and location that trying to wait and hope that in the future vacancies of class A in Tempe fall below 5%. Good luck. That's a fool's bet.

There is also a great chance that SRP commits to a lot of that space.

But they AREN'T first to market. Had they begun before HF3, Marina Heights, Rio+Mill, Discovery Campus, and Liberty, then I would agree. But, that 5% is going to go up significantly unless HF3 and Rio+Mill are completely pre-leased.

You really think the project in its full scope can be achieved knowing that all of those developments will come to market before them? I'm not an expert, so I'm not saying my prediction is gospel. But, I just don't see it happening beyond a couple of buildings. And, you say that developer A doesn't care about developer B - that can't be true. No developer is stupid enough to build, say, residential in a market that is already completely oversaturated. Their job is to keep up with the market and know what developments are going to be breaking ground and shifting the current dynamics. And, I have to imagine those funding such projects look at these things, too. Even the developer is quoted as saying the market could absorb the space "over time." I don't think even they are expecting to build it out in full.

If SRP commits to space, that changes things. I didn't know that - from the article, it sounded like they were just involved with the land purchase. Obviously, any project that has an anchor tenant leasing significant space is going to have a good chance of being built. But, I don't see them needing the entire proposed office square footage.

Lastly, it's disappointing that this went from a mixed use development to an office-only one. It's in a perfectly situated location to create a live/work development that leverages light rail and the nearby freeways. With downtown filling up, these areas just on the fringe would've been ideal for mixed use projects that alleviated some of the overrun.

[azsunsurfer]

But they AREN'T first to market. Had they begun before HF3, Marina Heights, Rio+Mill, Discovery Campus, and Liberty, then I would agree. But, that 5% is going to go up significantly unless HF3 and Rio+Mill are completely pre-leased.

You really think the project in its full scope can be achieved knowing that all of those developments will come to market before them? I'm not an expert, so I'm not saying my prediction is gospel. But, I just don't see it happening beyond a couple of buildings. And, you say that developer A doesn't care about developer B - that can't be true. No developer is stupid enough to build, say, residential in a market that is already completely oversaturated. Their job is to keep up with the market and know what developments are going to be breaking ground and shifting the current dynamics. And, I have to imagine those funding such projects look at these things, too. Even the developer is quoted as saying the market could absorb the space "over time." I don't think even they are expecting to build it out in full.

If SRP commits to space, that changes things. I didn't know that - from the article, it sounded like they were just involved with the land purchase. Obviously, any project that has an anchor tenant leasing significant space is going to have a good chance of being built. But, I don't see them needing the entire proposed office square footage.

Lastly, it's disappointing that this went from a mixed use development to an office-only one. It's in a perfectly situated location to create a live/work development that leverages light rail and the nearby freeways. With downtown filling up, these areas just on the fringe would've been ideal for mixed use projects that alleviated some of the overrun.

My understanding is that SRP is only going to take a minimal amount of space.

At first I was a bit negative on the likelyhood of this being built out but,
I am mixed on this one...State Farm came out of nowhere, and who is to say there aren't other large corporate end users who will eventually be looking for a fully entitled site that they could co-locate/ consolidate their operations.

There was an article awhile back saying that Phoenix was losing to Houston on not having fully entitled sites for large corporate campuses. I see this being a contender to try to lure someone away from another part of the country. However, places like Houston have strong market demand therefore they are able to have a larger surplus of spec sites already entitled.

Just my thoughts.

[PHXFlyer11]

But they AREN'T first to market. Had they begun before HF3, Marina Heights, Rio+Mill, Discovery Campus, and Liberty, then I would agree. But, that 5% is going to go up significantly unless HF3 and Rio+Mill are completely pre-leased.

You really think the project in its full scope can be achieved knowing that all of those developments will come to market before them? I'm not an expert, so I'm not saying my prediction is gospel. But, I just don't see it happening beyond a couple of buildings. And, you say that developer A doesn't care about developer B - that can't be true. No developer is stupid enough to build, say, residential in a market that is already completely oversaturated. Their job is to keep up with the market and know what developments are going to be breaking ground and shifting the current dynamics. And, I have to imagine those funding such projects look at these things, too. Even the developer is quoted as saying the market could absorb the space "over time." I don't think even they are expecting to build it out in full.

If SRP commits to space, that changes things. I didn't know that - from the article, it sounded like they were just involved with the land purchase. Obviously, any project that has an anchor tenant leasing significant space is going to have a good chance of being built. But, I don't see them needing the entire proposed office square footage.

I'm not saying this will be a full build out of the vision. That rarely happens. But you said there as a zero chance of this happening. That simply is not true. This will happen and the market is right. Of course developers pay attention to others, but the market could not be any better in Tempe than it is now. Yes, there will always be other projects under construction and competition to deal with. All it takes is one large tenant to sign a pre-construction lease and you can move dirt. There are very few places that could fill the needs right now for a large tenant. Therefore vacancy rates for Class A large space requirements may as well be 0%.

Now sure, in theory Mill + Rio and HFL3 are competing with each other for the same tenants, but that's not necessarily true. In all likelihood their target lease lists are not identical. In addition, just because a project does beat them to market doesn't mean that the customer even needs the space yet at that time. Or maybe they would rather be on the other side of the 202. That is called good ole competition and up to the developers to tout the differentiates of their respective properties (location, price, amenities, lease length). If you don't believe your project to provide value and can't compete with others then you don't build.

I have no information to support SRP moving it, it was just a hunch.

[Jjs5056]

I'm not saying this will be a full build out of the vision. That rarely happens. But you said there as a zero chance of this happening. That simply is not true. This will happen and the market is right. Of course developers pay attention to others, but the market could not be any better in Tempe than it is now. Yes, there will always be other projects under construction and competition to deal with. All it takes is one large tenant to sign a pre-construction lease and you can move dirt. There are very few places that could fill the needs right now for a large tenant. Therefore vacancy rates for Class A large space requirements may as well be 0%.

Now sure, in theory Mill + Rio and HFL3 are competing with each other for the same tenants, but that's not necessarily true. In all likelihood their target lease lists are not identical. In addition, just because a project does beat them to market doesn't mean that the customer even needs the space yet at that time. Or maybe they would rather be on the other side of the 202. That is called good ole competition and up to the developers to tout the differentiates of their respective properties (location, price, amenities, lease length). If you don't believe your project to provide value and can't compete with others then you don't build.

I have no information to support SRP moving it, it was just a hunch.

Oh okay, I think you just misunderstood me/I wasn't very clear. I said that there was 0 chance of it happening, but that 1 or 2 buildings would likely be built this cycle. In other words, 0 chance of it being built as one mega-development a la Marina Heights if it breaks ground in 2016 as planned. I didn't mean 0 chance of the project as a whole not happening. I still think there's a chance that it will completely fail, just based on the track record of these types of superdevelopments... but, I wouldn't say there's 0 chance because yes, there is a lot of office demand in Tempe and who knows? Maybe the additional office space being built will actually attract even more demand as others will want to be where the action is? Though I think it is worth noting that the demand is mainly in downtown Tempe - this site is outside those borders, and you have to admit that having Mill Ave within walking distance is a huge benefit to projects built in the core.

Selfishly, I hope the project doesn't get built in its current form. I think it's crappy that they scaled back the residential and retail portions. I think it's really important to build up residential centers near the light rail stops and this being just one or two stops from downtown, should be one of the first to develop into such IMO. A suburban office park on a prime light rail stop seems anticlimactic.

[PHXFlyer11]

Oh okay, I think you just misunderstood me/I wasn't very clear. I said that there was 0 chance of it happening, but that 1 or 2 buildings would likely be built this cycle. In other words, 0 chance of it being built as one mega-development a la Marina Heights if it breaks ground in 2016 as planned. I didn't mean 0 chance of the project as a whole not happening. I still think there's a chance that it will completely fail, just based on the track record of these types of superdevelopments... but, I wouldn't say there's 0 chance because yes, there is a lot of office demand in Tempe and who knows? Maybe the additional office space being built will actually attract even more demand as others will want to be where the action is? Though I think it is worth noting that the demand is mainly in downtown Tempe - this site is outside those borders, and you have to admit that having Mill Ave within walking distance is a huge benefit to projects built in the core.

Selfishly, I hope the project doesn't get built in its current form. I think it's crappy that they scaled back the residential and retail portions. I think it's really important to build up residential centers near the light rail stops and this being just one or two stops from downtown, should be one of the first to develop into such IMO. A suburban office park on a prime light rail stop seems anticlimactic.

Well, the good news is that we've seen when a lot of these super developments fail in Tempe it tends to create diversity as the land that wasn't developed is eventually sold to a new develop who builds a different, often more dense building. So just a couple 10 story buildings in my mind would be a win. Even if the rest wasn't developed for awhile. Because of the flight paths we'll never see anything above probably 10 stories on that land.

[Jjs5056]

Well, the good news is that we've seen when a lot of these super developments fail in Tempe it tends to create diversity as the land that wasn't developed is eventually sold to a new develop who builds a different, often more dense building. So just a couple 10 story buildings in my mind would be a win. Even if the rest wasn't developed for awhile. Because of the flight paths we'll never see anything above probably 10 stories on that land.

Definitely, though I'd rather see a couple of 10 story buildings on Ash than here. :) I don't mind lower heights in this area, though. I have a problem with the design that completely ignores the light rail station it sits adjacent to, and with its lack of mixed uses in an area that could develop into a really attractive area once downtown becomes more and more built out and congested, with light rail and easy access to amenities like Papago Park, DBG, Phoenix Zoo, Phoenix Muni, Pueblo Grande, the airport, etc.

[Obadno]

FYI according to the Article they still plan on a hotel and (if memory serves) they planned on an apartment/condo development next to Lofts on Rio Between the light rail stations.

Don't know if those are still a "go" but for a developer rentals in Tempe-Scottsdale seem like a no-lose gamble.

[Jjs5056]

FYI according to the Article they still plan on a hotel and (if memory serves) they planned on an apartment/condo development next to Lofts on Rio Between the light rail stations.

Don't know if those are still a "go" but for a developer rentals in Tempe-Scottsdale seem like a no-lose gamble.

The original plan, while it was totally suburban-style with no connection to the light rail, did at least include residential units. However, this article only mentions a possible future hotel phase - no residential.

For light rail to continue to be successful, it needs as much residential built near it as possible. And for downtown Tempe to continue to grow once its very limited downtown is built out, its inner-ring sites such as this will become extremely important.

I'd rather see hotels further up Washington built up the street and revitalizing some of the blight just prior and after the airport.

[azsunsurfer]

The original plan, while it was totally suburban-style with no connection to the light rail, did at least include residential units. However, this article only mentions a possible future hotel phase - no residential.

For light rail to continue to be successful, it needs as much residential built near it as possible. And for downtown Tempe to continue to grow once its very limited downtown is built out, its inner-ring sites such as this will become extremely important.

I'd rather see hotels further up Washington built up the street and revitalizing some of the blight just prior and after the airport.

I honestly see SRP selling or doing ground leases for each different land use....I see them next entering into an agreement with Broadstone or Alliance for them to build some 4 story structured complex like we are seeing going up everywhere right now. It's realistic. Then they'll do the same for the retail and hotel all separate. It's almost what Hines is doing with the Elevation site in Chandler...subdivide and conquer.

[Jjs5056]

I honestly see SRP selling or doing ground leases for each different land use....I see them next entering into an agreement with Broadstone or Alliance for them to build some 4 story structured complex like we are seeing going up everywhere right now. It's realistic. Then they'll do the same for the retail and hotel all separate. It's almost what Hines is doing with the Elevation site in Chandler...subdivide and conquer.

That would seem to make sense, but the new site plan and quotes from the developer seem to indicate that residential is definitely out, and hotel and retail are only 'possibilities.' It has definitely morphed from a poorly designed, but at least good mix of uses project into a really basic suburban office park.

[exit2lef]

Interesting blog post I noticed today about State Farm:

http://t4america.org/2015/03/16/state-farm-is-moving-to-concentrate-thousands-of-employees-in-locations-near-transit/

Apparently, the Tempe location is part of an overall strategy of locating near rail transit. The same criterion is being used for offices in Atlanta and Dallas. There is a reader comment at the bottom of the post, however, that makes an important point: If the parking is free or ridiculously cheap, the incentive to walk half a mile to the Mill Ave / 3rd St. station may not be all that strong.