Phoenix CityScape Thread

[gymratmanaz]

True. I like it every once in a while, but it is no LGO or Over Easy. I think it will do well in the DT market though, especially with the new Hotel!!!

Speaking of, when will we get or find any new updates (if any) to the hotel height or if anything is going above???

[HooverDam]

Seriously. Breakfast club is extremely over-rated and over-priced.

The main reason to eat there is the female scenery and the better than middlin' chance of seeing Luis Gonzlalez, Mark Grace or other 20001 era D'backs.

On the Cityscape interactive map (http://www.cityscapephoenix.com/interactive-map/id/2EJ213/) it looks like Breakfast Club will have an actual suite. I thought we were thinking for a while that it was just going to be based out of that little hut thing on the 'mesa' area, right? Or is that just going to be some kind of pick up/to go window I wonder?

The slow phased roll out of all this stuff at Cityscape really seems unfortunate to me. I wish they could've done it all at once and really made an impression. I'm really worried a lot of people will check it out now, see it half built and not give it a 2nd chance.

[gymratmanaz]

I disagree. The slow roll out gives people reasons to come and see what is next and new. Each new roll-out has a press release and usually some sort of hooplah! If it all came at once, some would come and maybe not return as often thinking, been there done that. With it being a new destination, the more constant drumbeat will help keep it in mind.

Plus, with the economy over the construction phase, it would be a little hard to expect all businesses to be in the same situation finance-wise to all go at once.

[dtnphx]

Still hoping for some clever Cityscape signage.

[renone]

Speaking of, when will we get or find any new updates (if any) to the hotel height or if anything is going above???

I have no idea, but if the building goes much higher they are going to have to raise that tower crane soon. I count only four crane sections between the top of the concrete forms and the crane right now. One more level and that will be a tight fit.

[gymratmanaz]

I keep looking for an extension too!!!!!! Raise that crane!!!

[PHX31]

Is there a webcam for CityScape to see hotel (plus hopefully office) progress?

[HX_Guy]

There are two, not setup by Cityscape themselves but you can see the progress...

http://instacam.com/showcam.asp?id=PHBOB&size=L

http://instacam.com/showcam.asp?id=PHNXA&size=L

And on both, if you right click and press "Open image in new window/tab", it will show you the image at a larger resolution.

[PHX31]

cool, thanks! it's looking good. i wonder when (if) we'll find out about the potential office portion.

[HX_Guy]

About the tower crane being raised...I don't think it's going to happen, at least not if they are just doing hotel, as there doesn't seem to be a need.

Looking at the webcams, there is plenty of space between the top of the elevator core (which is floor #7) and where it would top out at 11 floors.

http://wwc.instacam.com/instacamimg8/phbob/04192011/041920111043_l.jpg

[HX_Guy]

New restaurant coming to Cityscape! Keep 'em coming RED, keep 'em coming...

New CityScape restaurant: Italian concept called The Strand
2 comments by Howard Seftel - Apr. 15, 2011 12:17 PM
Republic restaurant critic

The restaurant scene at CityScape, the $900 million downtown Phoenix project, continues to be in flux.
Partners Jimmy Carlin and Ernest Vega, who have already signed on to do a pan-Asian restaurant called Silk Sushi, are now also bringing a fast-casual Italian concept called The Strand to the complex.
Fast-casual is an industry term that means you order at the counter before taking a seat, and having your food brought out to you. "Pei Wei atmosphere," says Vega.

Vega has plenty of fast-casual Italian experience, having served as regional manager for Pasta Pomodoro, a San Francisco-based chain that helped pioneer to the niche.
The Strand will offer sandwiches, pasta, salads and a version of flatbread pizza, as well as Italian dessert fritters called zeppole. You'll be able to slake your thirst with beer, wine and frozen Bellinis.
The Strand is scheduled to open in late July.
Meanwhile, along with Silk Sushi, the openings of two other CityScape restaurants have been pushed back to the fall, about a year past their original target dates: Huey's 24/7 Diner, which will dish out inexpensive comfort food all day and all night, seven days a week; and La Crepe Nanou, a New Orleans-based outfit featuring a French café menu of soups, salads and crepes.


Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/thingstodo/dining/articles/2011/04/15/20110415new-addition-cityscape-restaurants-italian-concept-called-strand.html#ixzz1K6sn0Q3Z

[HX_Guy]

The Strand will be Suite 113, which is directly next to the Arrogant Butcher.

[HX_Guy]

More workers for downtown...

Oakville Grocery to hire 45 for downtown Phoenix store
Phoenix Business Journal
Date: Wednesday, April 20, 2011, 1:22pm MST

The new Oakville Grocery store at the CityScape development in downtown Phoenix is hosting a job fair in preparation of its spring opening.
The job fair will be held from 8 a.m. to 3 p.m. Monday, April 25, at the store, 50 W. Jefferson St., Suite. 100.
The store is looking for cooks, bakery and deli workers, stockers, baristas and bartenders. Store officials say they expect to hire about 45 full- and part-time workers.


Read more: Oakville Grocery to hire 45 for downtown Phoenix store | Phoenix Business Journal

[gymratmanaz]

Looks like rebar on the 9th story of the hotel....or is it 8th. hard to tell from below.

Ticket booth in the stairs below Stand Up Live looking good.

Also below stairs looks to be 4 sign locations and an alcove maybe for an ATM???

More and more progress in Oakville, Stand Up Live, and Tilted Kilt!!!

[plinko]

I'm looking forward (somewhat) to finally walking through this complex this weekend.

[renone]

This is an awful picture (blackberry through a window), but it shows the newest level of the core and the proximity to the tower crane ceiling.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5186/5640967253_c0e0418a57_b.jpg

[HX_Guy]

I think it's the angle and being so close up because from the webcams, it looks like there is plenty of space...

http://wwc.instacam.com/instacamimg2/phnxa/04212011/042120111255_l.jpg
http://wwc.instacam.com/instacamimg7/phbob/04202011/042020111108_l.jpg

[Buckeye Native 001]

I was down in at the Capitol yesterday and had to make a Starbucks run, so I drove up Central past the complex. I need to take my camera down there sometime. Its going to be a bitch in the summertime with the heat, but I kinda like the way Cityscape looks.

[HX_Guy]

Awesome stuff...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ys4mPqNnXII&sns=em

[PHX31]

I didn't know Frank Caliendo was from PHoenix (or was he doing an impression at that point?)

I'm going to the Jo Koy show. Looking forward to it.

I also want to see Norm MacDonald.

[Vicelord John]

Frank Caliendo is from Ahwatukee.

I'm debating which shows I'd like to go to. I was thinking Jo Koy since it's the first show but I don't know anything about him. I'm a huge Norm Macdonald fan so I'm interested in going to see him.

[HooverDam]

^Go see Norm, Jo Koy is blah. Unless you're super into gossipy, Chelsea Lately sorta stuff. Norms a genius though.

Also, slight correction, Caliendo lives in the Valley but isn't "from" here. He wasn't born or raised here, nor did he start in comedy here or come up in the AZ comedy scene. He was born in Chicago but is most accurately described as being "from" Milwaukee. He went to HS and college there and started in comedy there.

[PHX31]

My fiance likes Jo Koy. I don't remember much about him but I think he makes fun of his asian-ness which could be funny.

I love Norm MacDonald... his stuff on SNL (especially Bob Dole) was always my favorite.

[Vicelord John]

My favorite Norm moment is Turd Furgeson. It's a funny name, Turd Ferguson.

Gossipy type stuff? thanks for saving me money.

[HX_Guy]

Wish they wouldn't have cancelled Adam Carolla...going to see him tonight at the Orpheum but would of rather gone to Stand Up Live to check it out, even though the Orpheum is great.

[HooverDam]

My favorite Norm moment is Turd Furgeson. It's a funny name, Turd Ferguson.

Gossipy type stuff? thanks for saving me money.

Norm is amazing, there's tons of hilarious stuff of him on YouTube.

Norm makes fun of "Chairman of the Board" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL0WayC7jW0)

Norms amazing dead pan roast (http://vodpod.com/watch/964947-this-man-is-for-the-birds)

Norms awesome Bob Eucker story (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OofRzY1Tm_g&feature=related)

Also related to the Bob Eucker story. I once worked on a Spring Training commercial that Bob Eucker was the star of. I had to toss him a baseball at the beginning of the take that he would catch and then he'd deliver his line.

I had to toss the ball with my right hand (Im a lefty), over the camera, and between two lights, into Euckers mitt. This was a tricky toss needless to say and Eucker said "You throw like a faggot. Like a girl." Which, was awesome.

EDIT: VVV I think Norms deadpan style goes over a lot of peoples heads. If you watch that Roast clip a lot of non comedy fans Ive talked to about it don't 'get it', they just think he's being dull.

[Vicelord John]

ha, that sounds fun.

I heard from a colleague that his shows lately have been awful, but I take her opinion with a grain of salt. I wonder if Stand Up Live would let me wear a giant cowboy hat?

[gymratmanaz]

Just stopped by, I know, odd for me to be walking about DT. SUL is looking awesome in and out. The new entrance is cool with two water features and what looks to be a fire feature, with really nice banks of ceiling fans for when you are standing or waiting outside. The chairs are in and ready to be set up. brick work inside looks nice.

Wondering if the NE corner will be some sort of inside/outside patio kinda thing?

Lisuor licence is posted for the new restaurant, Stand, is that the name?

Tilted Kilt is cranking. I want on that patio. will be the place, expecially on game nights next year.

Oakville keep growing. I think it will do well DT....just a feeling.

Anyone with any new news on the hotel or more?

Was thinking, by All Star Game, they should be putting the outside on at least the lowers floors right? Will look nice for thos visiting to see it looking good and with construction happening DT. Nice, though a finished hotel would have been better. Beggers can't be choosers.

[pbenjamin]

The Strand will be Suite 113, which is directly next to the Arrogant Butcher.

Sounds like the same concept as Sauce, which makes it sort of ironic being next the Arrogant Butcher.

[nickw252]

http://oi52.tinypic.com/20rr095.jpg

http://oi51.tinypic.com/ajm3x2.jpg

http://oi53.tinypic.com/2nl4r5s.jpg

[Phxguy]

It's pictures like these that enforces my hope for Cityscape to succeed. Increased foot traffic, more construction, and more venues. I was just there on Saturday and happy to see all of the people down there. Had to eat outside at Vitamin T because all tables were full inside, good amount of people shopping at all the clothing stores (Every time I looked there was a line of people waiting at the cash register), people relaxing in couches on couches. The whole downtown was bustling too. I took a picture where you couldn't see down the street because so mnay people were walking on the sidewalk.

[plinko]

^Where were you? I was down there on Saturday around 12pm and it was a ghost town.

[Vicelord John]

^Where were you? I was down there on Saturday around 12pm and it was a ghost town.

I was wondering when you'd chime in. I never left my house on Saturday so I have no clue what was going on, but there weren't any events in the day time. Perhaps he was there at night and saw the sidewalks doing a Time Square impression.

[plinko]

Honestly, it was shockingly empty at that time. My wife (whom I've dragged to downtown Phoenix at least 5-6X now over the years) remarked on it, and my Dad (who's lived in the Valley 30+ years but admittedly doesn't spend alot of time down there) also was quite suprised. It was totally DEAD.

Granted, the Suns are done, the D'Backs were out of town, there didn't seem to be a convention or anything else going on, but still...

On a positive note, there were alot of people on the train, but it seemed that most of them were going to Tempe (there was some sort of event at Town Lake).

[HX_Guy]

Plinko...what were your thoughts on Cityscape, aside from the fact that it was a ghost town. :)

[Phxguy]

^Where were you? I was down there on Saturday around 12pm and it was a ghost town.

I was between the Art Museum and Cityscape. From 8:30 am to 8 pm. I saw tons of people down there. Prom was going on at Arizona Center, there was a symphony, ball game, public market. I wasn't in downtown proper at 12pm as I was still Midtown but I headed down there for lunch and to hang out about 12:30.

[Vicelord John]

Was not a ball game

[nickw252]

Those pics were taken Monday during lunch and it was obviously very busy. I went to 5 Guys for a late lunch on Sunday and there wasn't much foot traffic. 5 Guys was relatively busy though considering it wasn't right at lunch time.

[pbenjamin]

Was not a ball game

There was a Rattlers game, if that means anything.

[Vicelord John]

means 3,000 hicks were downtown complaining that there isn't an applebees close by.

I'm just kidding, kind of.

[Evil Empire]

means 3,000 hicks were downtown complaining that there isn't an applebees close by.

I'm just kidding, kind of.

Multiply that figure by a certain number for Suns and Diamondbacks games and you get the same thing, unfortunately...

[gymratmanaz]

Heard from a pretty good source, Lucky Strike will be taking over the whole west side of the 2nd level. I assume that means the planned restaurants either won't be happening or will be finding a different location.

I think that is awesome. The upper location for restaurants did not make sense, and having Lucky Strike expand makes so much more sense. Lucky Strike and Stand Up Live make great destinations for Cityscape!!!

[Vicelord John]

Lucky strike must be doing well!

[PhxDowntowner]

Heard from a pretty good source, Lucky Strike will be taking over the whole west side of the 2nd level. I assume that means the planned restaurants either won't be happening or will be finding a different location.

I think that is awesome. The upper location for restaurants did not make sense, and having Lucky Strike expand makes so much more sense. Lucky Strike and Stand Up Live make great destinations for Cityscape!!!

I like that - you're right, it makes much more sense for a bowling alley to be on the 2nd floor than a restaurant.

I'd like to tap into y'alls braincollectives for a second: What makes CityScape different (hopefully in a better way) than the failed AZ Center or Colliers Center?

[Vicelord John]

I like that - you're right, it makes much more sense for a bowling alley to be on the 2nd floor than a restaurant.

I'd like to tap into y'alls braincollectives for a second: What makes CityScape different (hopefully in a better way) than the failed AZ Center or Colliers Center?

Too early to say, but I don't think anything other than location and timing make it different. It may turn out to be the same. It's a lot more central (AZ Center was on the edge of downtown when it was built.) and there are siginificantly more people living and working in the city then there were in the 80's.

Lets not forget that Arizona Center had its own signature/destination tenants when it opened as well.

[bwonger06]

Too early to say, but I don't think anything other than location and timing make it different. It may turn out to be the same. It's a lot more central (AZ Center was on the edge of downtown when it was built.) and there are siginificantly more people living and working in the city then there were in the 80's.

Lets not forget that Arizona Center had its own signature/destination tenants when it opened as well.

I'd say a hotel is the differentiation point and an important one at that. AZ Center has office buildings much like Cityscape but the hotel guest will not doubt utilize Cityscape throughout the night.

[Vicelord John]

I'd say a hotel is the differentiation point and an important one at that. AZ Center has office buildings much like Cityscape but the hotel guest will not doubt utilize Cityscape throughout the night.

True, to a point. When AZ Center opened, there was nothing, but they have had the undying support of guests from the Hyatt, Wyndham, and Sheraton during the past few years.

[gymratmanaz]

It is also more open and visible. There are also more people downtown these days, convention center, hotels, Suns and D-Backs are down the street, so game days help. Many other reasons too....

[Vicelord John]

yo, Chris, you basically said what I already said but then added to it.

[gymratmanaz]

Oops. Oh well, gotta start with good material somewhere. :)

[nickw252]

Lucky strike must be doing well!

I went to Lucky Strike about a month ago on a Saturday night and it was pretty busy. Our group had to wait about 45 minutes for a lane.

[nickw252]

I'd like to tap into y'alls braincollectives for a second: What makes CityScape different (hopefully in a better way) than the failed AZ Center or Colliers Center?

Was the Colliers Center ever supposed to be a night life/entertainment destination? I thought it was just a few lunch restaurants.

I agree with whats already been said comparing the AZ Center with CityScape. Location, light-rail, more people downtown, and visibility from the street.

[glynnjamin]

What makes CityScape different than Collier Center or AZ Center? Nothing right now other than this is what is new. In the future, the hotel will be what makes it different. Having a core of people there year-round who find CityScape "new & exciting" all of the time will help keep traffic moving through the core of downtown. We've proven time and again that the stadiums/arena traffic is not enough to sustain a business (otherwise, places like Tiggos/Jacksons on 5th would still exist). I still have little faith in the two-level shopping plaza model for the city of Phx but moving the destination-style businesses to the top floor (Golds, SUL, LuckyStrike) is a good move. They have clearly learned from a lot of their mistakes in the past but the place is still built in the image of Horton Plaza instead of having more outward-facing businesses.

[renone]

This is somehwat old news now, but the Phoenix School of Law has offically annouced that they will be moving into the old Phelps Dodge Building at One North Central. They will be taking the top 10-12 floors I think. When all is said and done, they will be brining almost 1,000 students, faculty and staff to the location. That is 1,000 more people that have to eat lunch someplace, many of which will stay late for dinner. I'm not sure how many students will live downtown, but it can't hurt.

The first year class of 250-300, plus some faculty and staff, will be moved into the building in time for classes starting in late August. The rest will be in the building for the spring semester staring in January.

The buildout of classrooms has already started. I hope to tour it sometime this month.

If I am a bar like Tilted Kilt, this would really make me happy.

[Vicelord John]

This is somehwat old news now, but the Phoenix School of Law has offically annouced that they will be moving into the old Phelps Dodge Building at One North Central. They will be taking the top 10-12 floors I think. When all is said and done, they will be brining almost 1,000 students, faculty and staff to the location. That is 1,000 more people that have to eat lunch someplace, many of which will stay late for dinner. I'm not sure how many students will live downtown, but it can't hurt.

The first year class of 250-300, plus some faculty and staff, will be moved into the building in time for classes starting in late August. The rest will be in the building for the spring semester staring in January.

The buildout of classrooms has already started. I hope to tour it sometime this month.

If I am a bar like Tilted Kilt, this would really make me happy.

you're actually the fourth person to report this as if it is late breaking news! :P

I hear what you are saying about Tilted Kilt. Slimy lawyer types will love to get drunk and stare at the Tilted Kilt girls and then when the girl looks their way they will act like they were looking at something else. Not to say I won't do the same though. :jester:

[plinko]

What makes CityScape different than Collier Center or AZ Center? Nothing right now other than this is what is new. In the future, the hotel will be what makes it different. Having a core of people there year-round who find CityScape "new & exciting" all of the time will help keep traffic moving through the core of downtown. We've proven time and again that the stadiums/arena traffic is not enough to sustain a business (otherwise, places like Tiggos/Jacksons on 5th would still exist). I still have little faith in the two-level shopping plaza model for the city of Phx but moving the destination-style businesses to the top floor (Golds, SUL, LuckyStrike) is a good move. They have clearly learned from a lot of their mistakes in the past but the place is still built in the image of Horton Plaza instead of having more outward-facing businesses.

^THIS

After visiting over Easter my opinion was quite similar and maybe more importantly, incomplete. The hotel within the complex is going to help significantly, along with the downtown grocer. Those two factors alone pull it out of the Collier Center type development (which originally had a remarkably similar development plan sans residences). The biggest advantage this has over the Arizona Center original plan is the location more toward the center of everything and the fact that there is a small, but growing semi-urban culture in downtown Phoenix. When the AZ Center went in there was nothing downtown except the promise of a new arena for the Suns. That's it.

I can certainly pick the place apart architecturally and functionally (I hate the bridge and the raised platforms, the inwardness of the 'public space' and the general cheapness of the Patroit's Square block) but as yet another component of a growing, functioning downtown, it's not bad.

If the next mega-mixed-use development is located somewheres near 7th Ave and Van Buren, you can start to see how the dots begin to be connected.

All that being said, it's horribly disappointing that they couldn't make apartments pencil as part of this project. It would have added alot more life to the place.

[PhxDowntowner]

The hotel within the complex is going to help significantly, along with the downtown grocer.

You really think Oakville will survive more than 18 months there?

[Crispy]

You really think Oakville will survive more than 18 months there?

My understanding is that most of the retail tenants received very favorable lease terms. I think they all have a pretty lengthy honeymoon period w/out much rental expense.

[plinko]

You really think Oakville will survive more than 18 months there?

I would have rather seen it be a Fresh & Easy or Sprouts (better match to the student demographic, which like it or not will be the highest growth sector in the area for the foreseeable future), but I think it certainly can work. If not, one of those other lower cost chains can certainly move in.

[HX_Guy]

Sooo...is this about it? The permits on the hotel say "Floors 4 - 10" over and over, so I guess it's 10 floors, and the elevator is at #10 right now. Looks a bit stubby.

http://nitnelav.com/DTMay62011/2.jpg
http://nitnelav.com/DTMay62011/1.jpg
http://nitnelav.com/DTMay62011/3.jpg

[gymratmanaz]

we'll see if it gets another level of rebar....? cross fingers

[gymratmanaz]

Was at Arrogant Butcher last night. I was impressed that it was packed, and there was no game or concert or event I could see. So it seemed full on its own, as a destination. Nice to see!!!

[combusean]

Plinko and gymratman you guys seem to compare Collier Center and Cityscape a lot but you gloss over two major differences that set CityScape apart.

The second level of retail in CityScape reminds me a lot of Downtown Phoenix's old microgrid that had the actual alleys named and activated. (China Alley, French Alley, etc). It is a straight, wide up and down that maintains retail visibility from blocks away. The mezzanine is functional as quasi public space that allows retail loading on the ground floor, and the pedestrian bridge had the VIP area for the concert on opening day. On at least the east block, with the ground floors otherwise dominated by the office and hotel use, it works better than even a traditional pure street approach to cram all the more retail in. Granted, the PSP block is stupid for street access and 2nd floor desirability.

Collier's interior access is a winding, claustrophobic clusterfuck, and you wouldn't even know half the retail establishments that are in Colliers are actually there--there's a small corner sign for Kincaids and nothing for its other shops or even Paradise Bakery.

I think any destination akin to CityScape's would have died outright in Collier's, even if they built the hotel component--timing and recessions completely aside.

[Buckeye Native 001]

This rant's not directed at anyone in particular, and I'm only basing this off of what I've seen here and elsewhere online since I'm no longer a resident of Phoenix:

I personally don't care if the hotel component is only five stories, so long as it adds to the street life and activity that Cityscape appears to be generating (I need to get my ass down off the mountain one of these days and check it out in-person sometime).

I know this is a skyscraper forum, but if Phoenix could cultivate one iota of foot traffic seen in other low-rise cities like DC, then bitching about the height of Downtown's buildings is a pointless endeavor, and we're better off for it in the long run.

[gymratmanaz]

Combusean - "Plinko and gymratman you guys seem to compare Collier Center and Cityscape a lot..." I don't think I have ever really mentioned Collier Center, let alone compared it to Cityscape. ....Though i agree with what you say about the Collier Center.

[HooverDam]

I know this is a skyscraper forum, but if Phoenix could cultivate one iota of foot traffic seen in other low-rise cities like DC, then bitching about the height of Downtown's buildings is a pointless endeavor, and we're better off for it in the long run.

Agreed and I think most people here agree. While I'd love Phoenix to have a new tallest thats over 500' just because the Chase Tower is uninspiring and it would be nice to break that 500' barrier, for the most part I wish Central PHX just had a ton more midrise stuff. If half the empty lots and surface lots between the 7's from the tracks to Camelback were full of 3-8 story mixed used stuff, Central PHX would be incredible.

[PhxDowntowner]

I think people need to consider what anyone who says "we need height" is saying. What IS the height they are talking about? Maybe they ARE talking about 6-story buildings, since there are plenty of NIMBYs out there that don't even want buildings that tall.

We should also realize that until people here have a more urban sqft-expectation, we have to build taller than other cities to achieve the same density. In other words, 5 stories in Boston will achieve density X b/c they average 400 sqft per person. But here to achieve density X we might have to build 7 stories tall because "the market" requires 550 sqft per person.

[Note that above values are illustrative.]

If we want to get away with saying "DC is great and only has X-story buildings", then we have to adjust the sqft expectations of people first. Until then, those are severely flawed comparisons.

[combusean]

Excellent posts all around, and sorry gymrat, I didn't mean to call you out. =)

My stance on height is that Phoenix allows plenty of height where it's allowed already without major entitlements and it works. You can build four or five stories of residential or commercial arguably anywhere you want--bigger than that and construction types change and everything gets more expensive.

As far as highrises go, developers that attempt to develop their land ethically, play by the rules, and actually do their due diligence with the neighbors are most likely to find success in the market. It seems most of the projects the NIMBY's get upset about are the pie-in-the-sky, sleasily varianced projects that are the hallmark of land bankers and non-builders.

[bwonger06]

We should also realize that until people here have a more urban sqft-expectation, we have to build taller than other cities to achieve the same density. In other words, 5 stories in Boston will achieve density X b/c they average 400 sqft per person. But here to achieve density X we might have to build 7 stories tall because "the market" requires 550 sqft per person.

[Note that above values are illustrative.]

If we want to get away with saying "DC is great and only has X-story buildings", then we have to adjust the sqft expectations of people first. Until then, those are severely flawed comparisons.



As far as highrises go, developers that attempt to develop their land ethically, play by the rules, and actually do their due diligence with the neighbors are most likely to find success in the market. It seems most of the projects the NIMBY's get upset about are the pie-in-the-sky, sleasily varianced projects that are the hallmark of land bankers and non-builders.

Developers can do all the due diligence they want but in Phoenix, but simply put construction cost do not equal what people are willing to pay (Hence why Centerpointe, Century Plaza, Summit, 44 Monroe all went bankrupt). High cost projects like Optima succeeded only because they hit the market early when investors speculated and snatched up several units in hopes of flipping. Once the market tanked, Optima stopped building units because real people were unwilling to buy at buildout cost.

The higher you build (more density) the more problematic and the more expensive the units are going to cost. Developers are in the game to make money and when they see people unwilling to pay a reasonable price for high-rise housing, developers must re-adjust their game plan. As combusean mentioned, height and cost are not linear, once you reach the 4-5 story range, cost start running up exponentially. Until Phoenix residents are ready to pay 300k for one bedroom apartments, developers will not build high-rise housing.

[PHX31]

Sooo...is this about it? The permits on the hotel say "Floors 4 - 10" over and over, so I guess it's 10 floors, and the elevator is at #10 right now. Looks a bit stubby.

http://nitnelav.com/DTMay62011/3.jpg

They'd have to add a ton of office in order to get it up to 400'. If they add on another floor, that would be a good sign. However, until it's shown in permits, it would be a win if the top was kept in a state of construction... as if there are plans to go higher.

[Vicelord John]

Poked my head in copper blues. They have a LOT of beer taps. At least 40. I hope they put good beers in them.

[gymratmanaz]

I was in Copper Blues on the outside patio, which is totally cool. I am happy they will carry hard cider, Woodpecker and Strongbow!!

[HX_Guy]

Are you talking about this outside patio? It was open on Friday for the show and it was a total trip...I thought it was all enclosed and then I kept looking and thinking, wow, those are really clear windows. :P They look like windows but are completely open...there is no glass there and the weird thing is, they have no way of closing. I guess they aren't concerned about rain/wind?

http://nitnelav.com/DTMay62011/4.jpg

[Vicelord John]

I was in Copper Blues on the outside patio, which is totally cool. I am happy they will carry hard cider, Woodpecker and Strongbow!!

Hard cider is fine and all, but they damn well better carry some really good beers from guys like Anderson Valley, Dogfish, etc.

[gymratmanaz]

I talked to the GM, and he said they looked into where the winds come from for monsoons and they believe that they will be fine. It is all outside furniture anyway.... Loved sitting there, cause the AC and fans make it cool and the breezes blowing were nice too!

[glynnjamin]

the monsoons never come from the north. I mean, they're still gonna get fucked up if there is another storm like the one 3 years ago but ya, they should be fine.

[dtnphx]

Downtown Phoenix office space filling up
Angela Gonzales , Senior Reporter

As Oakville Grocery prepares to open in downtown Phoenix’s CityScape on May 20, Benton Davis, CEO of United Healthcare of Arizona, is preparing for his own move into the new mixed use development this fall.

United Healthcare has leased 50,000 square feet of space within CityScape — enough to not only consolidate 650 to 700 workers within the downtown facility by year end, but grow to 900 employees there, he said.

“We have space earmarked to add another 200 downtown,” Davis said.

He said it is important to be downtown, near University of Arizona’s medical school, Arizona State University’s nursing school and the research hub anchored by the Translational Genomics Research Institute. Plus, he said, he is always meeting with businesses downtown, so it will be more convenient to be in the midst of the action.

The Phoenix School of Law also will be moving downtown across the street from CityScape, bringing 800 law students who also will have easier access to courts and law firms in the area. The school will be in One North Central, the former Phelps Dodge building.

Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon welcomed United Healthcare and Phoenix School of Law at a press conference today, but hinted at more to come.

“Within the next 30 days I expect we won’t have any AAA office space left,” he said.

Jeff Moloznik, development manager of Red Development, which built CityScape, said the Oakville Grocery store is scheduled to open May 20.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good news all around and am interested about who the "new" tenant will be that takes all the Class AAA space downtown. The good thing is that building additional office space downtown now becomes viable in the next few years so a proposed project or two could show up soon. Are they too far along on the Kimpton to say, "Shit, now's our time, let's add 20 more floors!" Wishin' :rolleyes:

[HooverDam]

^Slight point of clarification, the highest end office space is "Class A", not AAA like Phil Gordon said. After A its Classes B & C. Also note that the classes are relative to your area in large part, so in a City where office space hasn't been built in a while their Class A might be akin to Phoenix's class B or C.

But you're right, its good news, great news even. Now if only Phoenix could get PetsSmart, Cold Stone, CSK Auto, Avnet & Republic Services to move Downtown. I hope thats high on the priority list of the next Mayor (Stanton), its important to get home based companies taking pride in Downtown, investing in Downtown and splashing their logos across Downtown towers. We used to have companies (Valley National Bank most notably) that did that buy building unique bank branches and building a new tallest for AZ, I hope some of these other large companies will someday get the vision.

[plinko]

These are about three weeks old (and oddly the ONLY pics I took while I was down there), but I figured I'd share them...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/plinko923/PHOENIX%20-%20EASTER%202011/110423PHOENIX002.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/plinko923/PHOENIX%20-%20EASTER%202011/110423PHOENIX006.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/plinko923/PHOENIX%20-%20EASTER%202011/110423PHOENIX004.jpg

[dtnphx]

^Slight point of clarification, the highest end office space is "Class A", not AAA like Phil Gordon said. After A its Classes B & C. Also note that the classes are relative to your area in large part, so in a City where office space hasn't been built in a while their Class A might be akin to Phoenix's class B or C.

But you're right, its good news, great news even. Now if only Phoenix could get PetsSmart, Cold Stone, CSK Auto, Avnet & Republic Services to move Downtown. I hope thats high on the priority list of the next Mayor (Stanton), its important to get home based companies taking pride in Downtown, investing in Downtown and splashing their logos across Downtown towers. We used to have companies (Valley National Bank most notably) that did that buy building unique bank branches and building a new tallest for AZ, I hope some of these other large companies will someday get the vision.

I'm in commercial real estate so I do understand. I understood what the article was saying about premier or A+ spaces, but for continuity AAA seemed logical at the time.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Dig the last shot looking west on Jefferson, plinko :tup:

[plinko]

Dig the last shot looking west on Jefferson, plinko :tup:

It was really difficult to get what with all that crazy busy traffic and pedestrians shoving me out of the way! :D

I wanted to take more photos, but my 7months pregnant wife was in no mood for exploration.

[HooverDam]

I'm in commercial real estate so I do understand. I understood what the article was saying about premier or A+ spaces, but for continuity AAA seemed logical at the time.

Haha sorry, I didn't realize. Hope I didn't come across as a patronizing a-hole :(

[dtnphx]

Haha sorry, I didn't realize. Hope I didn't come across as a patronizing a-hole :(

No worries, Hoover!

[Vicelord John]

Haha sorry, I didn't realize. Hope I didn't come across as a patronizing a-hole :(

you never do....

sorry couldn't resist.:notacrook:

[hrivas]

cityscapes facebook via 'the scene'
http://thescene.s3.amazonaws.com/albums/5154/800fit/130242.jpg

[HooverDam]

^ Whats going on? Did they ditch the fountains that no one used or liked for astroturf or something?

I still can't get over how heinous those grey and silver walls are. Please just cover them in LED and neon already- bleck.

[Vicelord John]

^ Whats going on? Did they ditch the fountains that no one used or liked for astroturf or something?

I still can't get over how heinous those grey and silver walls are. Please just cover them in LED and neon already- bleck.

I see a KTAR tent so I'm guessing a mock up sports field of some sort.

[gymratmanaz]

I was just there. It is for the team competition where they throw beanbags across the fielf into wodden contraptions, kinda like a carnival game. it is for charity. The grass is all real sod, and it looks cool but is getting trampled fast.

[Vicelord John]

I was just there. It is for the team competition where they throw beanbags across the fielf into wodden contraptions, kinda like a carnival game. it is for charity. The grass is all real sod, and it looks cool but is getting trampled fast.

The game is called Cornhole, and is very popular in bars.

[combusean]

http://ktar.net/cornholecup/ for more information.

Seeing that park block filled up makes me glad I was a part of that whole movement--nothing like this or their opening day concert or anything would have been possible with their original plan. It's unfortunate that in the end the block turned out with the problems it did.

[Leo the Dog]

The game is called Cornhole, and is very popular in bars.

And/or tailgating.

[PHX31]

I was just there. It is for the team competition where they throw beanbags across the fielf into wodden contraptions, kinda like a carnival game. it is for charity. The grass is all real sod, and it looks cool but is getting trampled fast.


This is a funny description for something as commonly known as cornhole. I was going to play in the tournament with some of my friends, but it was already sold out when we went to register... so we just had our own tournament in my backyard.

[Vicelord John]

This is a funny description for something as commonly known as cornhole.

Insert inappropriate gay joke...

[gymratmanaz]

Insert inappropriate gay joke... insert???? add might have been more PC. :)

[Vicelord John]

insert???? add might have been more PC. :)

hahahahahahaa good catch

[gymratmanaz]

I was at Cityscape this afternoon, I couldn't believe how quickly they cleaned up that sod from yesterday. It was gone, cleaned up and the fountains were going.

Looks like no more than just the hotel. The rebar installed the other day at the top of the core was finished and curved flat, instead of sticking up to join in with the next addition of rebar. :(

[PhxDowntowner]

oh well - it'll be easy(ish) to add more floors if the demand eventually warrants it, won't it?

[gymratmanaz]

My bet. They leave it as is and then someone else builds big on both adjoining blocks.

[plinko]

My bet...both of those parking lots will still be there 10 years from now.