Phoenix CityScape Thread

[PHX31]

To most of us it has been a big disappointment. Both in scale and aethetics, especially considering the original hype and it's uber central location. However, it's better than what was there, and it's adding a lot of stuff (offices, hotel, bunch of restaurants/retail/attractions).

[gymratmanaz]

A few sentences to summarize 3-4 years of planning, building, and changes? Good luck Vicelord! ;)

[HX_Guy]

A couple sentences would suffice. Sorry, didn't know that was too much to ask. :shrug: I'm just curious about the current state of the project.

I'll bite...

Originally it was announced as a 4 tower project on two city blocks plus retail and 5 stories of apartments on a 3rd block. It was to include a new tallest building at 510'.

One of the blocks then got scrapped and were were left with two towers, one office and one condos over hotel. The 3rd block with the apartments was still in play.

Then the apartments were thrown out. The reason was said to be that the Renaissance Tower across the street had some sort of air rights and that nothing could be built to block it's southern views...or some crap like that.

Up next the condos above the hotel got the axe. There was rumor that they would be replaced by office space but that did not happen and the hotel started going up with no plans to build anything above it.

In the end we are ending up with a 28 story office tower, a 10 story hotel and 2 stories of retail on two blocks.

[rapid_business]

/\ wow. So all of the original 1000+ envisioned residential units got the axe?

[HX_Guy]

Yep, they sure did.

[rapid_business]

Great, thanks. That's all I needed.

[HX_Guy]

Whoa...how awesome would this be?


Downtown Phoenix parcel could become 500-room hotel

A downtown Phoenix parking lot could become the site of a new 500-room Hilton or Embassy Suites hotel.
The two-acre parcel, dubbed Block 23, is across from US Airways Center and in between CityScape and Collier Center. It’s bounded by Washington, Jefferson, First and Second streets.
Block 23 is owned by Naples, Fla.-based Barron Collier Cos. That company also owns the Collier Center, whose anchor tenant is Bank of America.
Barron Collier spokesman Jay Thorne confirmed new discussions are taking place with hotel companies about the downtown site.
“A hotel is one of the uses that has been discussed for this site, and the Colliers are engaged in talks and analysis with some well-known entities in the hotel business,” he said.
Jason Harris, deputy economic development director for the city of Phoenix, also confirmed talks with hoteliers about the parcel. Multiple sources said Collier is talking to Virginia-based Hilton Worldwide about bringing a 400- to 500-room Hilton or Embassy Suites to the downtown site.
Hilton does not have a hotel in downtown Phoenix now. Company officials did not respond to a request for comment.
No timetable has been set for when a new hotel might be developed, Harris and Horne said.
Barron Collier has wanted to build a hotel as part of its downtown development. The company also originally wanted to include a second office tower at the Collier Center.
Thorne said Block 23 originally was to be part of the CityScape mixed-use project, which includes offices and restaurants and is slated to house a 240-room Kimpton Palomar Hotel. Scottsdale-based RED Development owns the majority of CityScape.
“It is contemplated to share the underground parking garage with CityScape, giving the city three blocks of underground parking in the center of the city,” he said. “It also was contemplated to have a condo tower and an office tower with around 75,000 to 80,000 square feet of retail.”
But the real estate collapse put those plans on hold, and now Barron Collier is looking at the possibility of a hotel on the site.
Block 23 currently is a surface parking lot plus an underground parking garage used by downtown office workers during the day and by sports and concert fans in the evening. The site once was home to a JCPenney store, then to city offices that were demolished in 2008.
A Hilton would be the latest in a string of new or revamped hotels in Phoenix’s city core. All of those have occurred as a result of the expansion of the Phoenix Convention Center.
Westin Hotels and Resorts will open a 278-room hotel this spring at the Freeport-McMoRan Center, at Central Avenue and Van Buren Street. The city-owned Sheraton Phoenix Downtown Hotel opened in 2008 with 1,000 rooms at Fifth and Van Buren streets, next to the Arizona Center.
The Wyndham Phoenix is slated to become a Renaissance Hotel, one of Marriott International’s flags. Also, the Hyatt Regency Phoenix went through a $15 million renovation in 2010.
Debbie Johnson, president and CEO of the Arizona Hotel and Lodging Association, said downtown hotel growth is linked directly to convention and business travel.
“With the expansion of the Phoenix Convention Center, we always talked about how we would need more hotels downtown. And there is a difference between a downtown urban hotel and a resort,” Johnson said.
Johnson said now is a good time to see these things coming online.
“We are seeing some uptick in business. And with business even a littler bit higher than last year, that is a positive,” she said.


Read more: Downtown Phoenix parcel could become 500-room hotel | Phoenix Business Journal

[gymratmanaz]

This Goes Along With What I Posted A While Back, That A Meeting With holt Was Held To Talk About An Embassy Suites And Another Hotel To Go On That Block, To Be Completed By 2014. The Plan Was To Build Now, When Costs Are So Low. This Sounds Like That Meeting Is Now Going Even Further Along. They Also Talked About That They Own The Air Rights Above The Streets, So Sky-ways Or Walkways Can Go In, To Make It Easier To Get To The Convention Center.

[HooverDam]

Well I'm glad something could potentially go on that block. My one concern is how it would be laid out, thats a huge block to only build one hotel on and nothing else. I worry if it was designed poorly it could end up being a super block with no pathways through. Hopefully it'll only occupy either the North or South half of the block, leaving the other for future development. It would also be nice to keep an East-West pedestrian path connecting the Colliers food court West to the CityScape plaza.

So Sky-ways Or Walkways Can Go In, To Make It Easier To Get To The Convention Center.

Huh? You're saying they'd use skyways to bridge 2nd street, go across the Colliers Center, then across 3rd street to connect to the old and someday to be demolished South Building of the Convention Center? That doesn't make any sense.

Skyways are awful, and while they look cool in movies like "Metropolis" are really anti urban and something we should try to dissuade developers from pursuing where possible.

[gymratmanaz]

They do make it easier to get to places, so you don't have to wait on traffic or light rail to pass. I think they are looking at it as a plus for people using the convention center. They can carry supplies easier and don't have to lug things outdoors. I know having pedestrians using sidewalks is needed for foot traffic to businesses, but I don't think that someone using a pedestrian bridge will forget or forgo eating because they used a skyway. They won't decline to but something because they walked over a street. People would use this for coming and going to a meeting.

[Don B.]

All of these hotels downtown concern me a little bit, because it seems like we might be getting overbuilt. The Sheraton, the Westin under construction now at the Freeport/McMoron Center, and the Hotel Palomar going up at Cityscrape. I'm glad to see it, but if tourism is down (and may get worse if these fuel prices keep going up), I'm not sure how they plan to get "butts in the seats," so to speak.

Then again, I'm no expert on this issue and have no clue. Hopefully they will do their homework before investing millions. Course, I would have said that about large home builders in the mid 2000s, but what do I know?

--don

[PHX31]

If they are talking about building a Collier Center hotel, why not put it on the foundation that's already there just south of the BofA building? Is there something I'm unaware of regarding this pad? What's wrong with it.

I totally agree, Hoover, that's a huge block to only put a hotel on... hopefully they keep the remaining part of the parcel developable.

[HX_Guy]

They do make it easier to get to places, so you don't have to wait on traffic or light rail to pass. I think they are looking at it as a plus for people using the convention center. They can carry supplies easier and don't have to lug things outdoors. I know having pedestrians using sidewalks is needed for foot traffic to businesses, but I don't think that someone using a pedestrian bridge will forget or forgo eating because they used a skyway. They won't decline to but something because they walked over a street. People would use this for coming and going to a meeting.

I have to disagree with you on this. Sure, the skywalks could have an advantage to the individual, but it does absolutely nothing for the life of the city. People should use the sidewalks, we need people on the streets to add some feeling of life...it doesn't matter if someone is just going to a meeting, maybe they would walk by a store or cafe and grab something without planning to or just be there to add character to the streets and something for others to watch. I can't see any advantage to these bridges or skywalks.

[Vicelord John]

All of these hotels downtown concern me a little bit, because it seems like we might be getting overbuilt. The Sheraton, the Westin under construction now at the Freeport/McMoron Center, and the Hotel Palomar going up at Cityscrape. I'm glad to see it, but if tourism is down (and may get worse if these fuel prices keep going up), I'm not sure how they plan to get "butts in the seats," so to speak.

Then again, I'm no expert on this issue and have no clue. Hopefully they will do their homework before investing millions. Course, I would have said that about large home builders in the mid 2000s, but what do I know?

--don

I dont think tourism is down much right now. At least it isnt where I am and from what I'm hearing from others.

[Buckeye Native 001]

I have to disagree with you on this. Sure, the skywalks could have an advantage to the individual, but it does absolutely nothing for the life of the city. People should use the sidewalks, we need people on the streets to add some feeling of life...it doesn't matter if someone is just going to a meeting, maybe they would walk by a store or cafe and grab something without planning to or just be there to add character to the streets and something for others to watch. I can't see any advantage to these bridges or skywalks.

To add to that, Cincinnati and Minneapolis both have extensive skywalk systems and neither city's downtown appears to be suffering.

Being overweight and diabetic (aka gross and sweaty), I'd much rather stay in air conditioning as much as possible were I to attend a convention in a place notorious for its summer heat (regardless how dry it is) while walking from my hotel room.

[Buckeye Native 001]

In other words, since one of the primary functions of most conventions and conferences is networking, who wants to deal with the gross sweaty person who just walked to the convention center in blistering heat (given the general unhealthiness and obesity of most Americans)?

[HooverDam]

They do make it easier to get to places, so you don't have to wait on traffic or light rail to pass. I think they are looking at it as a plus for people using the convention center. They can carry supplies easier and don't have to lug things outdoors. I know having pedestrians using sidewalks is needed for foot traffic to businesses, but I don't think that someone using a pedestrian bridge will forget or forgo eating because they used a skyway. They won't decline to but something because they walked over a street. People would use this for coming and going to a meeting.

People are less likely to make purchases if they're walking in an out of tubes all day long, there would be less spur of the moment purchases. We have few enough people on the streets as is, we don't need skywalks making it worse.

Again, think about what you're saying, a skywalk passing over 2 streets, plus the Collier Center, to connect to a building that will be demolished in the next 10-15 years. That just makes no sense at all.

All of these hotels downtown concern me a little bit, because it seems like we might be getting overbuilt. The Sheraton, the Westin under construction now at the Freeport/McMoron Center, and the Hotel Palomar going up at Cityscrape. I'm glad to see it, but if tourism is down (and may get worse if these fuel prices keep going up), I'm not sure how they plan to get "butts in the seats," so to speak.

Then again, I'm no expert on this issue and have no clue. Hopefully they will do their homework before investing millions. Course, I would have said that about large home builders in the mid 2000s, but what do I know?

--don

Phoenix is still way low in hotel rooms compared to most cities. Our Convention Center is now one of the top 20 largest in the country and I'm sure we're not even in the top 40 or so when it comes to downtown hotel beds.

I believe Downtown currently has somewhere in the neighborhood of 2,000 hotel rooms. With Palomar, the Westin and the possible 500 room Hyatt, we'd still be only around 3K. I found something online saying that Denver, a City we'd theoretically compete with for some Conventions (though we have different 'seasons' than them) has about 8K downtown hotel rooms.

I think being able to attract Conventions is a similar issue to people living downtown. Its a chicken and the egg scenario, on the one hand you have to have a big enough Convention Center for big Conventions, but you also have to have enough hotel rooms conveniently located for the Convention goers. We know have a large Center ,building these hotels is the other half of that equation.

To add to that, Cincinnati and Minneapolis both have extensive skywalk systems and neither city's downtown appears to be suffering.

This isn't really a strong argument because you're only looking at one thing (skywalks) and a Downtown isn't made or broken by one thing. There's a lot of things that make for a strong downtown. Minny and Cincy may have lots of other things going for them that help them have enough street life to overcome the skywalks.

Downtown PHX on the other hand has a zillion and one issues with it and is one of the worst Downtowns in the US as far as street life goes. We aren't in a position to make any design decisions that may possible harm that any further.

[gymratmanaz]

Once again, lots of internal work going on inside of STAND UP LIVE, OAKVILLE, and the 3 restaurants next to LUCKY STRIKE.

ALSO... Workmen were inside starting on TILTED KILT.

[Buckeye Native 001]

This isn't really a strong argument because you're only looking at one thing (skywalks) and a Downtown isn't made or broken by one thing. There's a lot of things that make for a strong downtown. Minny and Cincy may have lots of other things going for them that help them have enough street life to overcome the skywalks.

Downtown PHX on the other hand has a zillion and one issues with it and is one of the worst Downtowns in the US as far as street life goes. We aren't in a position to make any design decisions that may possible harm that any further.

I'm looking at it as I presume an outsider would. When its 110 degrees outside in the middle of July, street life and pedestrian activity is probably one of the last things on a visitor/conventioneer's mind. A visitor with those ever-sacred tourism dollars will presumably want to spend as little time outside in the heat as possible. Ditto most office workers.

Then again, Phoenix could always follow Houston's lead and construct a whole underground system of tunnels and shops...

[HooverDam]

^Well there will never be underground tunnels due to the caliche. I think its extremely unwise for Downtown PHX to plan for just the 4 really hot months of the year, the months when very few out of state conventions are held here anyway. Most of the time convention visitors are here its 75 degrees and sunny.

[gymratmanaz]

Yes, Hoover, I would definitely write off a full third of the year. That is a great business model. ;) Maybe turn of AC in downtown hotels then too. Think of the savings and also, only losers come to Phoenix in the summer and we don't want their money either. For that matter, why cater to people that will come to the All Star Game, another waste of time and money.

Now, yes, I am being silly, but if someone wants to put in a skyway, let them. It will not really negatively affect our economy. If it helps bring a few more people here, then rock on!!! Personally, I use the sky bridge at Cityscape just as much as I do the street crossing. :)

[Vicelord John]

people walking to and from their conventions aren't going to spend money on the way anyhow. They are going to buy their coffee in the hotel lobby or convention center lobby. They are going to make a separate trip for food, shopping etc. They don't explore the city on the way from room 1325 to conference room B. That just isn't how it works.

Now, after the meeting, they may say, hmmm lets check out what I can do with my time.

Skywalk isn't going to be a problem. Nobody bitched about the one at the convention center or the one at Cityscape.

fuck

[HooverDam]

Yes, Hoover, I would definitely write off a full third of the year. That is a great business model. ;) Maybe turn of AC in downtown hotels then too. Think of the savings and also, only losers come to Phoenix in the summer and we don't want their money either. For that matter, why cater to people that will come to the All Star Game, another waste of time and money.

Now, yes, I am being silly, but if someone wants to put in a skyway, let them. It will not really negatively affect our economy. If it helps bring a few more people here, then rock on!!! Personally, I use the sky bridge at Cityscape just as much as I do the street crossing. :)

You really think the Convention Center is doing its peak business in the summer?

Again, lets state aloud what your proposing:

A skywalk going over 2nd street, over or through the Collier Center, over the hotel pad for the Collier Center, over 3rd street and then connecting to a building thats not slated to be around for forever.

If you think thats good urban design, I really don't know what to tell you. I have a stack of books I can recommend on the topic though that I'm pretty sure will tell you its a silly idea.

Nobody bitched about the one at the convention center or the one at Cityscape.

Thats factually incorrect, but OK.

people walking to and from their conventions aren't going to spend money on the way anyhow. They are going to buy their coffee in the hotel lobby or convention center lobby. They are going to make a separate trip for food, shopping etc. They don't explore the city on the way from room 1325 to conference room B. That just isn't how it works.


You may be right, but people would notice things and note to themselves "I need to come back and check this out later." Ever notice how you see a city differently from a car vs light rail vs on a bike vs on foot? Different ways of getting to a place cause you to see different things and alter your behavior, I don't really understand why you'd argue otherwise. People walking through and interacting with a City are far more likely to explore it than those seeing it from a car window or those staying in a sterile AC'd hallway.

I once took a trip to Indianapolis for a convention where I stayed at a hotel that was connected to a shopping center which was connected to the RCA dome all by skyways and tunnels. I rarely had to go outside for any reason, so I often didn't. Unsurprisingly the street life in that area of Downtown Indianapolis was quite dead. I found the same thing to be true in Houston where when I visited and it was hot and humid out a lot of people used their tunnel system.

This argument comes down to what your priorities are, mine is an active streetscape, if yours is keeping people at the maximum level of AC'd comfort for as long as possible; so they can go directly from a car to a parking garage to a tower to a skywalk to a convention hall, thats fine. But we'll have to agree to disagree on what makes a successful urban place.

[gymratmanaz]

You debate funny. You add all kinds of extra items to other people's comments, changing them altogether.

I'll leave you to your thoughts........ take care and have a nice one.

[HooverDam]

You debate funny. You add all kinds of extra items to other people's comments, changing them altogether.

I'll leave you to your thoughts........ take care and have a nice one.

What did I add to your comment? I asked if you think the Convention Center does a ton of business in the summer. And then I recapped where you claim this skybridge will be to make sure we all have it correct and on are on the same page.

It was actually you who exaggerated what I said, saying, "I would definitely write off a full third of the year. That is a great business model." You were joking, but you used a straw man, you exaggerated my point to make it look foolish and didn't offer any counter evidence to why a sky bridge was 1. needed or 2. good design.

Lets take a look at the Convention Centers calendar for 2011:
June: 4 events, 1 of them from out of state
July: 4 events, 2 of them from out of state, one being MLB fan fest, so thats not a regular sort of thing.
August: 4 events, 1 from out of state

I was just trying to make the point that we shouldn't make poor design choices that will be bad for the city the majority of the year just because its really hot out for a few months. Thinking like that is short sighted and the very height of penny wise and pound foolish.

Sure its hot as hell in Phoenix in the summer, but due to the dryness of the heat there are other ways one can design shade to deal with it. Its not a humid heat thats inescapable, proper shading, buildings made of the right materials, water features, trees, etc are a MUCH better way to go about things.

If you want a sky bridge because you think it looks neat and futuristic like something out of Metropolis or a Le Corbusier drawing, just say so. But you've totally failed to defend it from a design point of view.

[Vicelord John]

I dont think anyone wants a skybridge, we just dont care enought either way to bitch and ramble about it for paragraphs. We then have fun poking at you until you bitch for many more paragraphs.

[HooverDam]

I dont think anyone wants a skybridge, we just dont care enought either way to bitch and ramble about it for paragraphs. We then have fun poking at you until you bitch for many more paragraphs.

Gymrat quite clearly thinks the skybridge is a good idea if you bother to read what he writes. But I realize you feel your mission here is to generally troll, act childish, stir shit up, bring adult discussions to a halt, etc. and we all think you're so edgy and cool for it.

[Vicelord John]

I did read what he said, this topic is just too stupid to argue about. Who cares? Really?

[HooverDam]

I did read what he said, this topic is just too stupid to argue about. Who cares? Really?

Obviously he does and I do, so why get involved? If its a topic you don't care about, don't come into the conversation and muck it up for those involved. Its an issue of urban design (something this forum is largely about) and its worthy of being discussed. Gymrat holds an opinion thats generally counter to prevailing thought about good urban design and I'm trying to explain to him, kindly and rationally, why a skybridge in the location he's outlined is probably a bad idea.

If you travel to great urban places and pay attention to the details you'll realize great cities are all about the tiny minutia like this. Great urban places get all or most of the small things right, Downtown PHX sadly botches almost all of the small things. Until we start paying attention to detail we'll never have a great urban core.

[Vicelord John]

If you think you're being kind and rational toward him, you're wrong. You're getting that stinky holier than thau scent again, and acting like anyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong. We all have different opinions, and nobody is trying to make you feel wrong, yet you spend your whole night trying to convince us all that we are.

Cool.

[HooverDam]

If you think you're being kind and rational toward him, you're wrong. You're getting that stinky holier than thau scent again, and acting like anyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong. We all have different opinions, and nobody is trying to make you feel wrong, yet you spend your whole night trying to convince us all that we are.

Cool.

Where have I called him names? I haven't. Where specifically have I talked down to him or anyone? I haven't. Further, even if I was doing those things, can't he stick up for himself? You constantly butt into other people's conversations telling them to be civil and nice when you're the king of trolling and acting like a child on this board.

Every time a discussion of the details of design comes up you pitch a fit and then it eventually comes down to you saying "who cares about this!?" If you don't care, why join the conversation? This literally has nothing to do with you, so buzz off.

[gymratmanaz]

Well said Vicelord.

[azliam]

Gymrat quite clearly thinks the skybridge is a good idea if you bother to read what he writes. But I realize you feel your mission here is to generally troll, act childish, stir shit up, bring adult discussions to a halt, etc. and we all think you're so edgy and cool for it.

Well, he is good for adding photos occasionally (hint, hint)...

[Vicelord John]

And reporting a lot of stuff first

[gymratmanaz]

Man in the field........ :)

[gymratmanaz]

Now, I hope we can move on to more important things.... :)

[Vicelord John]

Apparently nothing is more important

[HooverDam]

I'm so sorry I wanted to have a substantive discussion on urban design on a forum that seemingly is about such things. Damn how silly of me.

Gymrat, if you think I was talking down to you or insulting you, I'm quite sorry. I have no idea how one could glean that from what I've posted, I was just trying to explain what a terrible idea a 2 block long sky bridge that connects to a to be demolished building is.

E: VVV I really can't handle your childishness anymore. I never said or implied Gymrat was stupid and you know it. You're going on the ignore list for a while, you're really intolerable.

[Vicelord John]

Right, you think its terrible (just like everything else) and anyone who disagrees with you is stupid. Yes. You give off that vibe. That's why i've stopped countering you on stuff.

[dtnphx]

Hoover:

I had this almost identical thing with him several pages back. It will never change, he will always be a contrarian. He tells Don B. on the Coffee Thread (read it) who is suffering from depression and actually talked of suicide that it's all made up and in his head and that he knows best for him. No compassion, no listening, he only cares about his entrenched opinions. It's irresponsible and narcissitic. And Gymratmanaz is now his pal and they meet up and are just totally rad bffs and now he chimes in to defend him any chance he gets. I've learned my lesson and will not engage directly with either of them. I will speak of them as it relates to a relavent post. I suggest you do the same and have intelligent discussions with others on this board such as SilverBear, Bwonger and others.

[gymratmanaz]

Feels like high school all of a sudden. LOL

[gymratmanaz]

Any elevator core forms yet?

[renone]

I was under the impression that the second tower being built now was entirely for the hotel. Am I wrong about this? The head of our company told us that they are in preliminary discussions to move to the "new building in cityscape". We would need 5 or 6 floors, so it can't be the building that is already there. Does my boss have it wrong or is there additional office space being built?

[gymratmanaz]

From what HX and everyone says, the second tower is only for the hotel, though it would be great if they are wrong.

[plinko]

^They downgraded the structure and thus aren't ever allowed to add height or floors to the building. That's not a city thing, that's a building code thing. It's capped at 13 floors.

[Vicelord John]

Hoover:

I had this almost identical thing with him several pages back. It will never change, he will always be a contrarian. He tells Don B. on the Coffee Thread (read it) who is suffering from depression and actually talked of suicide that it's all made up and in his head and that he knows best for him. No compassion, no listening, he only cares about his entrenched opinions. It's irresponsible and narcissitic. And Gymratmanaz is now his pal and they meet up and are just totally rad bffs and now he chimes in to defend him any chance he gets. I've learned my lesson and will not engage directly with either of them. I will speak of them as it relates to a relavent post. I suggest you do the same and have intelligent discussions with others on this board such as SilverBear, Bwonger and others.

I never said whats best for don. In fact i specifically said in the end he should do what works for him. Good reading skills, again.

[Urban Rising]

The office above is not dead. I don't know about the code portion that Plinko is referring to or what it would take to modify the permitting, but a final decision on whether there is office above the hotel won't be reached until April. Structurally the building is being built to support the office above.

I have also heard rumors that there is funding in place for the office portion of the building.

Long story short unless renone works for United Healthcare who is taking up 5 floors in the 1st office tower, his higher ups are referring to the possible 2nd office tower above the hotel.

[gymratmanaz]

From your lips to God's ears! That is encouraging!!!!

[dtnphx]

Barron Collier, Hilton weighing downtown hotel idea

Barron Collier Companies and Phoenix officials are mulling development ideas - possibly a hotel - for a two-acre parcel downtown that is now a parking lot near the massive office and retail development, CityScape, at First and Washington streets.

A spokesman for Barron Collier, Jay Thorne, said Hilton Worldwide officials have been exploring the idea of building a hotel on the property, but nothing is firm at this point, Thorne said

Before the recession hit, the site was marked for condo towers.

"Now, the market isn't interested in condos, and not so much in office " space, Thorne said. "But the hotel industry is still looking at downtown."

Business leaders have said Phoenix could use more downtown hotel options to accommodate an increase in visitor traffic tied to the Phoenix Convention Center's expansion, a $600 million project which was completed two years ago that tripled the convention center's space.

CityScape's developer, RED Development, is building a $90 million boutique Palomar Hotel, which will be managed by Kimpton Hotels. The hotel is expected to open in 2012.

- Emily Gersema, emily.gersema@arizonarepublic.com

-------------------------------------------

Nothing new in this article compared to the Business Journal story a few days back, but it's good to see speculation/discussion on the project.

[gymratmanaz]

Positive chatter is always better than the other kind. Nice that the chatter is coming from a variety of sources and fairly often, so far.

[plinko]

The office above is not dead. I don't know about the code portion that Plinko is referring to or what it would take to modify the permitting, but a final decision on whether there is office above the hotel won't be reached until April. Structurally the building is being built to support the office above.

I have also heard rumors that there is funding in place for the office portion of the building.

Long story short unless renone works for United Healthcare who is taking up 5 floors in the 1st office tower, his higher ups are referring to the possible 2nd office tower above the hotel.

How can that be? They pulled a building permit the tower with a structural fire resistance downgrade from Type IA construction to Type IB and started building the tower. Type IB has a maximum height under most any occupancy (including office and all residential/hotel) of 11 stories (I misspoke earlier and said 13). That's straight out of Chapter 5 of the IBC and is not something you can get any sort of variance for.

All previous plans have called for Type IA construction, which is unlimited height, unlimited area (except by City zoning).

Your info has been spot on in all cases previously (I know you work in some sort of construction/estimating/marketing trade), but until I see a permit for a tower with Type IA construction, it isn't happening.

[HX_Guy]

Heard a rumor that Chipotle has signed a lease at Cityscape. Anyone else heard anything on this?

[Vicelord John]

Heard a rumor that Chipotle has signed a lease at Cityscape. Anyone else heard anything on this?

OMG i hope so!

[gymratmanaz]

Would be awesome. What if it were next to Vitamin T though? Ouch!!!

[Vicelord John]

Then vitamin t's death would only be faster.

[gymratmanaz]

Chipotle would need both spaces anyway. :)

[phoenixheadphones]

Man i hope thats true about Chipotle- that place would be packed everyday. Perhaps too packed, but still..

[renone]

Long story short unless renone works for United Healthcare who is taking up 5 floors in the 1st office tower, his higher ups are referring to the possible 2nd office tower above the hotel.

I don't work for united healthcare. I have no idea about building codes, but my understanding is that my company is being heavily recuited to occupy office space above the hotel. Maybe the broker needs to get some updated information, but that sounds a bit odd.

In other news, as I discussed earlier, it sounds like the new tenant in the Phelps Dodge building could become a reality. It could still fall apart, but it sounds like both sides are to the point where they have worked so hard on it they aren't going to walk away. Move-in date would be September for at least some of the students. And yes, as someone already guessed, it is the Phoenix College of Law. The space would be designed for 900 students, faculty and staff at One North Central. That would be a nice shot in the arm for Cityscape. Classes are mostly held during the day, but many students stay and study into the night.

[gymratmanaz]

Both really great possibilities. Hope they both come through. More is definitely better!!!

[FortyAcres]

yall are getting this worked up about a McChipotle at the expense of a local business -- and a local restauranteur who believed in downtown? Man, you Phoenicians have a loooooong LOOOOOONG way to go. I hope Postino III never makes it downtown and opens up in Gilbert next to a Wells Fargo instead.

This is especially directed @chubbyhotelbellboy #winning

[Jsmscaleros]

Word. I can get Chipotle anywhere in this town. Vitamin T ain't my favorite place in the world, but unique restaurants are the only thing keeping me remotely interested in this cookie-cutter complex to begin with.

[phoenixheadphones]

Word. I can get Chipotle anywhere in this town. Vitamin T ain't my favorite place in the world, but unique restaurants are the only thing keeping me remotely interested in this cookie-cutter complex to begin with.

I don't think Chipotle moving in means that Vitamin T is doomed. I like Vitamin T too, and i think downtown could support both. If Vitamin T can survive its horrible location, it can survive anything.

[gymratmanaz]

Next door to each other though? If Chipotle was next to 5 Guys, sure!

[phoenixheadphones]

Next door to each other though? If Chipotle was next to 5 Guys, sure!

If they were next to each other, i dont think Vitamin T could make it. But lets hope that doesnt happen.

[gymratmanaz]

Does the Palomar plan on having its own restaurant? Lord know there will be plenty of choices on property.

[Vicelord John]

yall are getting this worked up about a McChipotle at the expense of a local business -- and a local restauranteur who believed in downtown? Man, you Phoenicians have a loooooong LOOOOOONG way to go. I hope Postino III never makes it downtown and opens up in Gilbert next to a Wells Fargo instead.

This is especially directed @chubbyhotelbellboy #winning

Simply put, you're a complete dick. :)

And yes, I'd rather have Chipotle over Vitamin T. I like chipotle. I dont like Vitamin T.

[HX_Guy]

What's wrong with Vitamin T? I think it's great.

Chipotle is ok, but overrated in my opinion. It's like white people discovered what a good tortilla tastes like. I would rather eat at one of the "Bertos" places for cheaper.

[HX_Guy]

New permit today dealing with the reduced floors of the South Tower...

Permit# RVSN-0705627-13 Issue Date Expires 3/1/12
Permit Description CITYSCAPE SOUTH TOWER
Project 06-5309 CITYSCAPE

DESCRIPTION OF WORK:
****REVISED REINFORCEMENT DETAILS FOR LEVELS 3-4 AT THE BLDG CORE DUE TO FEWER FLOORS THAN ORIGINALLY DESIGNED FOR.

[westbev93]

If your concern is Cityscape "succeeding," shouldn't you aim for maximum foot traffic, which is usually a pretty good indicator of retail success? If so, isn't Chipotle going to bring much more traffic than Vitamin T?

Setting aside the Chipotle v. Vitamin T debate, if it is true about Chipotle can we at least all agree that Vitamin T was stupid for not negotiating an exclusive on fast Mexican at Cityscape?

Full disclosure--I have never eaten at Chipotle in my life. I have eaten at Vitamin T about 5 times and have never been overly impressed or disappointed.

[Vicelord John]

Vitamin t cant follow their own posted hours, and the food is meh at best. Its like watered down mexican for white people. Im not saying chipotle isnt the same but as stated by westbev, at least chipotle = foot traffic.

Chipotle also uses decent quality hormone free meat. This is something that cant be said fpr vitamin t or a bertos. Im going to get some heat for this but id almost like to see a mcdonalds, del taco, chick fil a, etc. open there. Downtown doesnt have a big fast food chain outside of burger king. That mcdonalds on monroe was always busy.

[gymratmanaz]

So HX, wonder what that permit means? We know they can change for a shoter than originally planned height, but what height now are they scaling back to??? :) :) :)

[Vicelord John]

The permit is probably fpr scaling back from the original design to what they are doing now. Im ASSuming here.

[KingLouieLouie76]

If indeed Chipolte was being added to CityScape...would it be occupying the space that formerly belong to LGO?

It obviously wouldn't make sense because of the close proximity to Vitamin T.....

[gymratmanaz]

Not necessarily. There are still a number of open spots not spoken for. If it went, I would assume both Chipotle and Vitamin T would want to be apart.

[KingLouieLouie76]

Not necessarily. There are still a number of open spots not spoken for. If it went, I would assume both Chipotle and Vitamin T would want to be apart.

Yeah...otherwise it would defeat the purpose to have either...

Quite frankly a coffee house should go in that spot..one opened until 2 a.m. that has live music and poetry recitals..etc....

[plinko]

So HX, wonder what that permit means? We know they can change for a shoter than originally planned height, but what height now are they scaling back to??? :) :) :)

Reducing the construction type means that all the reinforcing in the concrete can be reduced (and thus co$t $aving$) and thus would also then require some reworking of how the existing built portion of the building connects with the newer portion.

That's how I read that.

It'll be 11 stories.

[Vicelord John]

Not necessarily. There are still a number of open spots not spoken for. If it went, I would assume both Chipotle and Vitamin T would want to be apart.

Doubt chipotle cares. They gonna get theirs regardless.

Heres to wishing we could get a counter service chinese place.

[gymratmanaz]

I like the Chinese idea......

[KingLouieLouie76]

How about a Mongolian BBQ? That would be awesome!

[Vicelord John]

Ended up in the hospital once from mongolian bbq. Lol. Pass!!!!!

[KingLouieLouie76]

Out of curiosity sake....

How would a pool hall do in CityScape?

[HX_Guy]

Out of curiosity sake....

How would a pool hall do in CityScape?

Lucky Strike sort of doubles as a pool hall, no?

[Vicelord John]

Out of curiousity sake, how does a pool hall do anywhere? Talk about an unprofitable business to get into, especially with the rents downtown? Forget it.

[KingLouieLouie76]

Lucky Strike sort of doubles as a pool hall, no?

I guess I overlooked the obvious, thanks.... haha

[Leo the Dog]

Chipotle at CityScape is a perfect fit.

I've always thought that DT needs major chains, department stores, things that people are familiar with. The local, unique stuff will eventually develop around CS/the center point of DT.

[HX_Guy]

Robert Sarver’s Alliance becomes Arizona’s largest locally owned bank
Phoenix Business Journal - by Jan Buchholz
Date: Friday, March 4, 2011, 4:00am MST

In the lexicon of basketball, the evolving business strategy of Robert Sarver’s Alliance Bank of Arizona and its holding company, Western Alliance Bancorp., might be called a full-court press.
Western Alliance quietly moved its headquarters from Las Vegas to Phoenix at the end of 2010, making it Arizona’s 44th public company. And this month, the Alliance Bank name will be hoisted to the top of the CityScape office tower, creating the newest of downtown Phoenix’s marquee brands.
The corporate headquarters take up CityScape’s 14th floor, and there’s a bank branch on the ground floor.
“We’re now the largest locally headquartered...


Read more: Robert Sarver’s Alliance becomes Arizona’s largest locally owned bank | Phoenix Business Journal

Anyone have full access to the article?

[Vicelord John]

Maybe he will trade some of his managers to mcfonalds for line cooks and drafe picks to save salary.

Ok. That was really lame.

[gymratmanaz]

He is a huge mover and shaker of our downtown!

[glynnjamin]

There used to be a pool hall above Staudmires (is that even still there?)
It was always dead. It was trying to be too flashy. Pool only works as a side attraction to beer/tvs. We have a place up here that has skee-ball in a bar & there are leagues. Talk about hipster hangouts.

[Vicelord John]

There used to be a pool hall above Staudmires (is that even still there?)
It was always dead. It was trying to be too flashy. Pool only works as a side attraction to beer/tvs. We have a place up here that has skee-ball in a bar & there are leagues. Talk about hipster hangouts.

Actually, Stoudemire's was a pool hall called Lucky Break. The sign was so far above it that most people thought it was second level though.

[HooverDam]

Well even though I think Sarver is a boob as far as a NBA owner goes, him moving Alliance to PHX is very good news. This is the thing PHX leadership needs to focus on a lot more. Instead of the shell game of firms just moving from Midtown to Downtown or whatever, we need to be attracting new firms to the City from out of state.

I wish the City had (and maybe they do) some sort of internal target list of firms they could try to lure to Downtown/Midtown PHX. It could be based on companies that would be good fits here, aerospace, light industry, solar, hi tech, bio med, mining, etc. and the City should make aggressive plays to try to get them to relocate here. The City and the Valley in general did that a lot in the 50's and 60's, it seems like we've rested on our laurels for decades though. With all the negative publicity about AZ recently the City really will have to work twice as hard to attract companies.

[combusean]

I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with shuffling companies from elsewhere in the city to downtown. The biggest competitor to downtown is Phoenix itself.

I salivate at the idea of Amex, Cox, Discover, PetSmart, Safeway, and Schwab all marqueeing their own brand new towers downtown. Their demands for space are all there and they all have significant operations in the city.

According to the county, because the assessor's website got even more awesome by giving commercial property overviews with construction year now:

Discover apparently leases 300,000 square feet on 2402 W Beardsley built in 1990.

Cox owns 210,000 square feet of office and 100,000 square feet of warehouse on 1550 W Deer Valley built in 2000

Amex's complex is huge:
360,000 sqft in two buildings built in 1988
300,000 sqft in one building built in 1988
170,000 sqft in another built in 2001
130,000 sqft in another building built in 1989

PetSmart leases 184000 sqft in one building constructed in 1996 and 180000 sqft more between two constructed in 2007 on 27th Ave and Yorkshire.

Safeway owns 400000 sqft in 3 buildings constructed in 1999 and 2001 on 27th Ave and Beardsley with a whole lot of room to grow.

Schwab owns 330000 square feet on 24th St and Lincoln built in 1976.

As these facilities age they're going to be less appealing and I bet some of the older structures listed aren't remotely energy efficient, etc. As the companies themselves grow, they're simply going to look elsewhere naturally.

As an aside, how Deer Valley ever surpassed Downtown Phoenix and Scottsdale on the radars of corporate America is beyond me. The notion of DV being the nexus of cheap Phoenix backoffice space surrounded by parking lots seems almost obsolete when Amex, Discover, and Schwab are the only ones without parking garages.

[Vicelord John]

those are the kinds of businesses that in every city are out in the burbs. Chicago, Los Angeles, Dallas, etc. Call centers and distribution centers are never downtown. Why would discover card put their call center employees downtown? It's WAY too expensive.

[HooverDam]

I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with shuffling companies from elsewhere in the city to downtown. The biggest competitor to downtown is Phoenix itself.

I don't think its always bad, I just don't like Midtown losing out at the expense of Downtown. I'd like to see all of the Central Corridor office towers have high occupancy rates.

I wish companies like PetSmart and Cold Stone had their HQs downtown, I think they're foolish not to. PetSmart could have a flagship retail location on the ground floor of a tower. ColdStone could have a big ice cream shop and do tours like a smaller scale version of the Coca Cola museum in Atlanta. I got to work on a TV show and see how all of Cold Stone's products are made, flavors tested, etc. and it was pretty neat. I bet tourists and convention goers would love to have something like that Downtown to check out.

PetSmart, Cold Stone, Meritage Homes, CSK Auto, U-Haul*, Avnet, Republic Services and RSC Holdings are some of the biggest corporations in the Valley, maybe of them on the Fortune 1000 list. Unfortunately none of the ones I just listed are HQ'd in the Central Corridor and thats a shame.

*Also, U-Hauls parent company, Amerco, is HQ'd in Reno, Nevada. It seems like Phoenix ought to have the leverage to pull them away from Reno and attract Amerco/U-Haul to Downtown.

E: Also not related to Corporate HQs, but it would be awesome to have one of these downtown: http://www.skyzonesports.com

[plinko]

I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with shuffling companies from elsewhere in the city to downtown. The biggest competitor to downtown is Phoenix itself.

I salivate at the idea of Amex, Cox, Discover, PetSmart, Safeway, and Schwab all marqueeing their own brand new towers downtown. Their demands for space are all there and they all have significant operations in the city.

According to the county, because the assessor's website got even more awesome by giving commercial property overviews with construction year now:

Discover apparently leases 300,000 square feet on 2402 W Beardsley built in 1990.

Cox owns 210,000 square feet of office and 100,000 square feet of warehouse on 1550 W Deer Valley built in 2000

Amex's complex is huge:
360,000 sqft in two buildings built in 1988
300,000 sqft in one building built in 1988
170,000 sqft in another built in 2001
130,000 sqft in another building built in 1989

PetSmart leases 184000 sqft in one building constructed in 1996 and 180000 sqft more between two constructed in 2007 on 27th Ave and Yorkshire.

Safeway owns 400000 sqft in 3 buildings constructed in 1999 and 2001 on 27th Ave and Beardsley with a whole lot of room to grow.

Schwab owns 330000 square feet on 24th St and Lincoln built in 1976.

As these facilities age they're going to be less appealing and I bet some of the older structures listed aren't remotely energy efficient, etc. As the companies themselves grow, they're simply going to look elsewhere naturally.

As an aside, how Deer Valley ever surpassed Downtown Phoenix and Scottsdale on the radars of corporate America is beyond me. The notion of DV being the nexus of cheap Phoenix backoffice space surrounded by parking lots seems almost obsolete when Amex, Discover, and Schwab are the only ones without parking garages.

Doesn't USAA have some huge facility out that way as well?

Honestly, with the exception of Petsmart and Cold Stone (both of which seem more suited to Midtown), I just don't think there are that many corporate jobs sitting on the periphery that would be ideal downtown relocation candidates. John is right, most of them are call center type jobs.

[HX_Guy]

My contact over at RED said that they are in fact still able to build office above the hotel portion and that they are "working on that part right now". Still weird with the columns thing but who knows.

Anyway, here are some new photos from Cityscape Facebook page...

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/189044_207900269224500_118100984871096_929433_7242323_n.jpg

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/183467_207900292557831_118100984871096_929434_6002423_n.jpg

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/200773_207900312557829_118100984871096_929435_7771652_n.jpg

[plinko]

My contact over at RED said that they are in fact still able to build office above the hotel portion and that they are "working on that part right now". Still weird with the columns thing but who knows.

I would love to know how that would be allowed by the building code.

[HooverDam]

Honestly, with the exception of Petsmart and Cold Stone (both of which seem more suited to Midtown)

What makes you say that? I think having them downtown would be terrific, PetSmart could be an anchor store for a retail area.

[FireMedic]

What's the max number of floors that can be added ?

[Don B.]

^ 807. I have it on good authority from a hotdog vendor who's mother sits on the Board who heard from her aunt that her brother's father is in talks to relocate Bank of America's headquarters from Charlotte to Phoenix, AZ.

:rolleyes:

:)

--don