Phoenix CityScape Thread

[HX_Guy]

Awesome, thanks for the update...I'll have to drop by tomorrow to check it out.

[gymratmanaz]

I am out of town in NYC till 28th of July....gonna miss checking things out.....but I expect great new news...Keep me posted of anything HUGE!!!

[HX_Guy]

Check out this webcam to keep an eye on the tower crane progress..

http://instacam.com/showcam.asp?id=PHBOB&size=L

[gymratmanaz]

HX - I don't see anything crane-like? Or are you offering this for down the road when the crane and building grows?

[HX_Guy]

Look closer...you can see it sort of crossing the Wells Fargo building.

[gymratmanaz]

Ahhhhhhh!!!!

[RichTempe]

We finally have crane!!!

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/784/5283065011origum3.jpg

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/5718/5283064978origva2.jpg

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/6255/5283064992origsy9.jpg

:banana:

[CANUC]

:previous: :cheers::cheers:

[Sonoran_Dweller]

GREAT!!! Thanks RichTempe ;) .

[Luke Skyscraper]

Rich,
Great job with the camera! Made my day......:worship:

[HX_Guy]

Awesome, I love it! :D I'll be by there tomorrow to snap some pictures myself.

Question for anyone who knows...

Can a tower crane be mounted on top of a parking garage? Or does it have to be anchored into the soil?

I'm trying to figure out how the second crane will work for the other tower.
If they are going to build the underground garage...which will span the whole block, how will they put up another tower crane?

Maybe they will pup the crane up on Central Ave once they close that off (in December I think) because other then that, I don't see a solution.

[PHX31]

I don't know, but I'd guess they'd design one of the columns of the garage to account for the anchoring of the tower crane to it. Good question.

HX_Guy,
You mentioned the tower crane received FAA height clearance for something like 490'... but I thought you also previously posted that the clearance was for something like 540'. Am I mixing up numbers somehow, talking about something else, or did they change the clearance to the lower height?

[plinko]

Awesome, I love it! :D I'll be by there tomorrow to snap some pictures myself.

Question for anyone who knows...

Can a tower crane be mounted on top of a parking garage? Or does it have to be anchored into the soil?

I'm trying to figure out how the second crane will work for the other tower.
If they are going to build the underground garage...which will span the whole block, how will they put up another tower crane?

Maybe they will pup the crane up on Central Ave once they close that off (in December I think) because other then that, I don't see a solution.

Most likely anchored to the inside of an elevator shaft or stair shaft? Just a thought.

[HX_Guy]

If they were to design one of the columns of the garage to account for the anchoring of the crane...wouldn't that anchor need to be installed now? As I understand, the crane anchors remain in the ground even when the building is complete...they never come out.

About the heights, that's true...originally there was a FAA application for 558', but shortly after a new one was applied for at 490' and the previous one dissappeared. It's not in the "Determined" or "Archived" or anywhere, even the link for it with the case # at the end is dead and just takes you to the FAA's home page: https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/searchAction.jsp?action=displayOECase&oeCaseID=578729

I'm guessing the first one was denied? Who knows?

The location also slightly changed...

1st:http://nitnelav.com/CScranespot.jpg2nd:http://nitnelav.com/cityscapecranefaa2.jpg

[HX_Guy]

Most likely anchored to the inside of an elevator shaft or stair shaft? Just a thought.

Yes but wouldn't it need to go in now? At lease the anchored/cemented in portion?

[HX_Guy]

One other thought...why is the tower crane for a 385' building going to be 490'? That's way too tall...unless it's the funky kind of crane (not the T shaped one).

Also...the FAA permit says:

Description of Proposal: 490 ft. tower crane to build 36 story building for 24 months

That sounds like the condo/hotel tower...guess they got that mixed up too.

[PHX31]

Yes but wouldn't it need to go in now? At lease the anchored/cemented in portion?

I didn't explain my thoughts very well, but maybe they use a column of the garage as the anchor. I'd imagine they'd use some kind of drilled shaft cassion for the foundation columns... maybe they'll just design one slightly bigger/stronger/weight/moment bearing to attach the crane to (the crane wouldn't be cemented in at the bottom, but closer to the top of the garage. Wait, wouldn't they use a crane for the construction of the under ground garage? Eh, hell, I don't know, it's a good question, still.

ps. thanks for clearing up the tower crane height issue.

[HX_Guy]

Finally had a chance to stop by a check it out...I figured they would have it completed by now but it's not even close, it looked like they were assembling the boom when I stopped by at 1pm.

I was also thinking today...I would like the AZ Republic to do a story on downtown, maybe with a headline such as "Despite slowdown, cranes still rising downtown"...maybe there's an angle downtown where both the CPE and Cityscape cranes can be seen in the same photo. Would be nice to highlight that things are still happening downtown.

http://nitnelav.com/cityscapecrane1.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/cityscapecrane2.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/cityscapecrane3.jpg

[PHX31]

/\ Cool pics! Good to see it rising out of the ground. It looks a little weird just jutting out there from what looks like a parking lot (in the first picture).

[PHX]

One other thought...why is the tower crane for a 385' building going to be 490'? That's way too tall...unless it's the funky kind of crane (not the T shaped one).

Also...the FAA permit says:

Description of Proposal: 490 ft. tower crane to build 36 story building for 24 months

That sounds like the condo/hotel tower...guess they got that mixed up too.


Maybe that takes into account the 30ft of the crane that is below ground. So the net amount of the crane above ground is 460ft to build a 385ft tower. Still seems like a lot...just a thought.

[kevininlb]

HX...

The Republic very recently had a story like the one you're describing. In fact, the paper (and I'm no big supporter of it, although I read it) has been really good, I think, at touting what's going on downtown.

I forget the reporter's name, Jahna or something...she seems to be pretty much on top of what's going on downtown and writes a lot -- often brief bits -- about new construction, etc.

[Classical in Phoenix]

HX...

The Republic very recently had a story like the one you're describing. In fact, the paper (and I'm no big supporter of it, although I read it) has been really good, I think, at touting what's going on downtown.

I forget the reporter's name, Jahna or something...she seems to be pretty much on top of what's going on downtown and writes a lot -- often brief bits -- about new construction, etc.

Jahna Berry, she covers downtown and Sky Harbor. Of all the Republic reporters, she seems to be the best.

[Viperlord]

Okay, my work paid off:

Source: Mike Ebert at RED Development.

Tower I - Wachovia Tower
28 stories (but there's no 13th floor, so it is really 27 stories)
385 feet tall
commercial offices
under construction now

Tower II - Palomar Tower
36 stories
415 feet tall
retail + hotel + 116 residential units starting at $400 psf
will be under construction within 12 months*

Towers III and IV are the purview of Barron Collier Companies, and they are waiting at the moment. Perhaps 24 to 36 months out, depending on various factors

--don

* Plan as of the moment. This could change, however.


so, is it 34 stories or 36 stories...

http://southwest.construction.com/features/archive/0807_cover_1.asp July 2008

Charlotte, N.C-based Wachovia Corporation will anchor the 27-story 600,000-sq-ft Class A office tower. This building is targeted for LEED certification, with high-performance glazing systems and electrical and mechanical systems to optimize efficiency.

Adjacent to this will be a 34-story tower. San Francisco-based Kimpton Hotels & Restaurants will operate a 250-room Hotel Palomar up to the 14th floor. From the 15th floor, the phase two building will include 165 luxury residential condominium units.

RED expects the first phase to open in 2009 and the entire project to be complete by 2011.

[HX_Guy]

I've heard of 36 stories...both on here from Don and on the FAA reports.

At this point though, I don't think 34 or 36 matters, as long as the hotel and the 165 condos get built.

[Sonoran_Dweller]

At this point though, I don't think 34 or 36 matters, as long as the hotel and the 165 condos get built.

And please don't forget the buildings connections with the streets :koko: , the environment that the buildings make with the street is the most important thing.

Sadly, I'm kind of doubtful that CityScape is going to create that urban-street-front environment. God I hope that they do though. But from the renderings it seems to be an inward development that wants to close itself off from the downown surrounding it.

And while the height is nice and all, I would be perfectly happy if all of downtown were buildings of one floor in height with a good street/building connection. No matter what the height is (not just in Phoenix, but anywhere) , if there is not a good and efficient street/building connection, there is no city.

[exit2lef]

And please don't forget the buildings connections with the streets :koko: , the environment that the buildings make with the street is the most important thing.

Sadly, I'm kind of doubtful that CityScape is going to create that urban-street-front environment. God I hope that they do though. But from the renderings it seems to be an inward development that wants to close itself off from the downown surrounding it.

And while the height is nice and all, I would be perfectly happy if all of downtown were buildings of one floor in height with a good street/building connection. No matter what the height is (not just in Phoenix, but anywhere) , if there is not a good and efficient street/building connection, there is no city.

Such a good point. Our current tallest building, the Chase tower, is a disaster at street level -- set back from the street, numerous driveways that interrupt the sidewalk, retail hidden from view. Any new tallest building, whether that honor goes to CityScape or some other project, should not repeat those mistakes.

[HX_Guy]

I completely agree about the street level. From the renderings...it looks to be somewhere in between...not the best but not the worst at approaching the street. I don't see any long stretches of street front retail...more like the corners with blank walls in between the city block. I just hope the entrances to the retail spots are off the street/corner and not from the inside area where you have to walk around to get in...know what I mean?

The worst stretch, at least from this angle...is along Washington St which is all blank wall with some glass, but no entryways except on the NE corner of Block 77. Also along 1st Ave, right in front of the light rail station, you have the parking garage entrance...horrible spot, but I guess where else would you put it? There will be another along Jefferson, so I assume that whole stretch will be similar, thought at least it looks like about 1/2 has some glass and an entrance on the corner.

Take a look at the ground floors here...make sure you click on the picture to make it full size if you browser doesn't automatically...

http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/CItyscapeBig.jpg

[Phxbyrd211]

The longer RED continues with CityScape the more I believe they aren't up to the job. It's not that they couldn't build a Westgate Center or Desert Ridge but are they really committed urban engineers? Are they capable of creating a city palace or Phoenix's version of Rockefeller Center? If they were then they would have demonstrated that by adapting their design plan when conditions changed. They have altered the project by moving slower and becoming smaller which hurts CityScape in both respects. They should have kept the best aspects of their proposal (new tallest, sleek modernism, multi-use) and then improved upon them and delivered a product soon enough to capitalize on the promise of light-rail, convention center and ASU.

Further the assumption was that permanent residents were crucial to making the retail and entertainment portions a success but phase one only offers a token 65 "market rate" rentals. If they were serious they would more than double that amount to at least 150 apartments with half being in the affordable category. This would seriously bolster the Patriot's Park block and its businesses while being easily accommodated where the retail is strangely kept at only 2 stories at street level. To this end it would have been a smart move to start construction of both blocks simultaneously because the park is the one resource the public is being deprived of during this process. The retail and apartments would be done a few months sooner but that is logical as that is the portion in which the Phoenix population at large is going to interact with more often than an office tower. Also you could begin cultivating that evening and weekend market first which is your prime target for any DT revitalization project. When it's finally time to sell the condos then people will already know what CityScape is and want to move there rather than the developers telling us to buy something they've never seen.

The key to avoiding another Arizona Center is how you deal with the hotel portion. The original plan called for not just the 250-room Palomar hotel but also:
"TWELVE Hotel & Residences will incorporate 1,000 condominiums and a 150-room boutique hotel"
This tells us that hotel space was a priority for both convention goers and business travelers and yet the current plans push any usable rooms out for at least 3 years. It would make more sense to combine the two concepts for a single entity between 300-375 rooms. I finally learned this week that the Palomar hotel is supposed to take up 14 stories of the condo tower. Adding this square footage to the top of bottom of the office tower would still keep it within the FAA approved 515' height ceiling. This would make the Palomar both an attractive hotel for secondary conventions and their management but also an efficient housing solution for visiting executives in CityScape.

Why would this be good? First you satisfy the small but vocal urban segment in Phoenix that is desperate for a new tallest and iconic new structure. Second, it would encourage and inspire the governmental and business leadership in Phoenix to think big and realize the possibilities we have here. And third it would catch the attention and imagination of the overall Maricopa County population who may have taken little notice so far of the changes taking place downtown. Finally and perhaps most importantly it will have a profound impact on the sense of expectation both for CityScape and "Copper Square". With the new and better plan people will be impressed and hope for even better from the last block and a half. As it stands everyone will be disappointed with what's produced and hold little if any expectation for the ultimate completion.

There is still time for RED to correct its course but we all sort of think it just still isn't Phoenix' time yet despite how long we've waited.

[Don B.]

RED either lacks vision or capital to build a 515-foot tower. They may lack both.

I guess we should feel fortunate that this economic turbulence hasn't killed Cityscape entirely. After all, we are getting, at a minimum, the second and fourth tallest skyscrapers in downtown Phoenix. I'll take it, but sometimes I feel yet another opportunity has passed downtown Phoenix by.

I've said this before, but we actually have a decent downtown. It's just scattered all over the face of the metro area.

If downtown Scottsdale was just east of downtown Phoenix, downtown Tempe was just south of downtown Phoenix, downtown Glendale was just west, midtown was just north, etc.; we'd have a pretty spectacular, if short, downtown skyline.

Take 24th and Camelback and move it to 7th Street and Roosevelt; add Desert Ridge, CityNorth, Kierland and a few other developments around this combined downtown, and we would be far more respected in the pantheon of urbanity.

Oh well. It is what it is.

--don

[PHX4EVER]

Thay finaly have full crane up and running today.i didn't have my camera on me to snap some pics.But list some more good news coming out of cityscape.I will try to go down there tommorow to take some pics.:banana: :banana: :banana:

[combusean]

The longer RED continues with CityScape the more I believe they aren't up to the job. It's not that they couldn't build a Westgate Center or Desert Ridge but are they really committed urban engineers. Are they capable of creating a city palace or Phoenix's version of Rockefeller Center? If they were then they would have demonstrated that by altering their design plan when conditions changed. They have altered the project by moving slower and becoming smaller which hurts CityScape in both respects. They should have kept the best aspects of their proposal (new tallest, sleek modernism, multi-use) and then improved upon them and delivered a product soon enough to capitalize on the promise of light-rail, convention center and ASU.

Further the assumption was that permanent residents were crucial to making the retail and entertainment portions a success but phase one only offers a token 65 "market rate" rentals. If they were serious they would more than double that amount to at least 150 apartments with half being in the affordable category. This would seriously bolster the Patriot's Park block and its businesses while being easily accommodated where the retail is strangely kept at only 2 stories at street level. To this end it would have been a smart move to start construction of both blocks simultaneously because the park is the one resource the public is being deprived of during this process. The retail and apartments would be done a few months first but that is logical as that is the portion in which the Phoenix population at large is going to interact with more often than an office tower. Also you could begin cultivating that evening and weekend market first which is your prime target for any DT revitalization project. When it's finally time to sell the condos then people will already know what CityScape is and want to move there rather than the developers telling us to buy something they've never seen.

The key to avoiding another Arizona Center is how you deal with the hotel portion. The original plan called for not just the 250-room Palomar hotel but also:
"TWELVE Hotel & Residences will incorporate 1,000 condominiums and a 150-room boutique hotel"
This tells us that hotel space was a priority for both convention goers and business travelers and yet the current plans push any usable rooms out for at least 3 years. It would make more sense to combine the two concepts for a single entity between 300-375 rooms. I finally learned this week that the Palomar hotel is supposed to take up 14 stories of the condo tower. Adding this square footage to the top of bottom of the office tower would still keep it within the FAA approved 515' height ceiling. This would make the Palomar both an attractive hotel for secondary conventions and their management but also an efficient housing solution for visiting executives in CityScape.

Why would this be good? First you satisfy the small but vocal urban segment in Phoenix that is desperate for a new tallest and iconic new structure. Second, it would encourage and inspire the governmental and business leadership in Phoenix to think big and realize the possibilities we have here. And third it would catch the attention and imagination of the overall Maricopa County population who may have taken little notice so far of the changes taking place downtown. Finally and perhaps most importantly it will have a profound impact on the sense of expectation both for CityScape and "Copper Square". With the new and better plan people will be impressed and hope for even better from the last block and a half. As it stands everyone will be disappointed with what's produced and hold little if any expectation for the ultimate completion.

There is still time for RED to correct its course but we all sort of think it just still isn't Phoenix' time yet despite how long we've waited.

It would make more sense but re-engineering the tower would probably take a year that RED doesn't have. It's too late--the tower crane is already in the air. The hotel and office tower are of significantly different construction (concrete gridwork vs steel frame) and it's not like you can just duct-tape the two together. You'd have to re-engineer it all the way down to the basement and I just don't see that happening.

Look at it this way--One Central Park East is phased separately from its original condo tower but still took months to come out of the ground after it changed hands.

[Downtown_resident]

The longer RED continues with CityScape the more I believe they aren't up to the job. It's not that they couldn't build a Westgate Center or Desert Ridge but are they really committed urban engineers. Are they capable of creating a city palace or Phoenix's version of Rockefeller Center? If they were then they would have demonstrated that by altering their design plan when conditions changed. They have altered the project by moving slower and becoming smaller which hurts CityScape in both respects. They should have kept the best aspects of their proposal (new tallest, sleek modernism, multi-use) and then improved upon them and delivered a product soon enough to capitalize on the promise of light-rail, convention center and ASU.

Further the assumption was that permanent residents were crucial to making the retail and entertainment portions a success but phase one only offers a token 65 "market rate" rentals. If they were serious they would more than double that amount to at least 150 apartments with half being in the affordable category. This would seriously bolster the Patriot's Park block and its businesses while being easily accommodated where the retail is strangely kept at only 2 stories at street level. To this end it would have been a smart move to start construction of both blocks simultaneously because the park is the one resource the public is being deprived of during this process. The retail and apartments would be done a few months first but that is logical as that is the portion in which the Phoenix population at large is going to interact with more often than an office tower. Also you could begin cultivating that evening and weekend market first which is your prime target for any DT revitalization project. When it's finally time to sell the condos then people will already know what CityScape is and want to move there rather than the developers telling us to buy something they've never seen.

The key to avoiding another Arizona Center is how you deal with the hotel portion. The original plan called for not just the 250-room Palomar hotel but also:
"TWELVE Hotel & Residences will incorporate 1,000 condominiums and a 150-room boutique hotel"
This tells us that hotel space was a priority for both convention goers and business travelers and yet the current plans push any usable rooms out for at least 3 years. It would make more sense to combine the two concepts for a single entity between 300-375 rooms. I finally learned this week that the Palomar hotel is supposed to take up 14 stories of the condo tower. Adding this square footage to the top of bottom of the office tower would still keep it within the FAA approved 515' height ceiling. This would make the Palomar both an attractive hotel for secondary conventions and their management but also an efficient housing solution for visiting executives in CityScape.

Why would this be good? First you satisfy the small but vocal urban segment in Phoenix that is desperate for a new tallest and iconic new structure. Second, it would encourage and inspire the governmental and business leadership in Phoenix to think big and realize the possibilities we have here. And third it would catch the attention and imagination of the overall Maricopa County population who may have taken little notice so far of the changes taking place downtown. Finally and perhaps most importantly it will have a profound impact on the sense of expectation both for CityScape and "Copper Square". With the new and better plan people will be impressed and hope for even better from the last block and a half. As it stands everyone will be disappointed with what's produced and hold little if any expectation for the ultimate completion.

There is still time for RED to correct its course but we all sort of think it just still isn't Phoenix' time yet despite how long we've waited.

Good post. I'm afraid we're about to see firsthand why the city made a gigantic error surrendering two of downtown's most important blocks to a developer of suburban power centers and strip malls.

http://downtownphoenix.blogspot.com

[Phxbyrd211]

You are probably right Sean, but what has RED been doing for the past year? They knew what was happening to the market back then and good ideas are always good no matter what the economic conditions. Where was mayor Gordon or other leaders stepping up to tell the developers to get it right? In retrospect we spent all that time and effort worrying and bickering about the open space and now it seems like a waste. What we got from Patriots Park is not particularly good and we took for granted that we'd be happy with what was in the sky. Now it looks like we will be let down in all respects. I've come to realize that even if RED did have the initiative to make positive changes they simply aren’t' good enough to deliver the kind of class A developments other quality cities have come to expect.

I guess we should feel fortunate that this economic turbulence hasn't killed Cityscape entirely. After all, we are getting, at a minimum, the second and fourth tallest skyscrapers in downtown Phoenix. I'll take it, but sometimes I feel yet another opportunity has passed downtown Phoenix by.


Don talks about CityScape as though it narrowly averted economic death but what is there really to kill? I think our problem is that we were sold on a vision of CityScape that doesn't, and maybe never really did exist. There is now a project for and office tower and some retail not much different than OCPE and the ground floors of the ASU campus. A big opportunity was missed because these three block as we all envisioned them could have catapulted downtown into minimally LA or Dallas territory with the potential to prop-up many of central Phoenix' deficiencies for years to come while we played catch-up. There are some other sites around DT with similar sorts of potential but in general there is much less room for error now and 8 out of ten developments will need to be of quality and competence. Off the top of my head there are the lots in and around the central station and the south convention and its surrounding area.

But just as surely as we know we go forward hoping not to repeat the mistakes of the Bush presidency, we cannot let another RED raise our expectations and then dash then the next time through.

[PHX NATIVE 929]

RED is more than up to the job. Why is it so difficult for so many of you to grasp the simple concept of supply and demand? RED does not control the economy and RED does not control demand for downtown office space, downtown condo space, or downtown retail space. Tenants and buyers will tell them what needs to get built. It's very simple!!!

Of course, it's easier to take cheap shots at the "suburban developer" than it is to sit back and realize that they were the only developer that stepped forward with a project here. Where are all of the "urban" developers at? Why aren't you mad at them for their "lack of vision"?

If you were a widget salesman, would you produce more widgets than you knew you could sell? The goal is to MAKE MONEY!!! This isn't charity work. What is so hard to understand for crying out loud?

[Vicelord John]

RED is more than up to the job. Why is it so difficult for so many of you to grasp the simple concept of supply and demand? RED does not control the economy and RED does not control demand for downtown office space, downtown condo space, or downtown retail space. Tenants and buyers will tell them what needs to get built. It's very simple!!!

Of course, it's easier to take cheap shots at the "suburban developer" than it is to sit back and realize that they were the only developer that stepped forward with a project here. Where are all of the "urban" developers at? Why aren't you mad at them for their "lack of vision"?

If you were a widget salesman, would you produce more widgets than you knew you could sell? The goal is to MAKE MONEY!!! This isn't charity work. What is so hard to understand for crying out loud?clap, clap, clap:banana:

[PHX31]

RED is more than up to the job. Why is it so difficult for so many of you to grasp the simple concept of supply and demand? RED does not control the economy and RED does not control demand for downtown office space, downtown condo space, or downtown retail space. Tenants and buyers will tell them what needs to get built. It's very simple!!!

Of course, it's easier to take cheap shots at the "suburban developer" than it is to sit back and realize that they were the only developer that stepped forward with a project here. Where are all of the "urban" developers at? Why aren't you mad at them for their "lack of vision"?

If you were a widget salesman, would you produce more widgets than you knew you could sell? The goal is to MAKE MONEY!!! This isn't charity work. What is so hard to understand for crying out loud?

Agreed, sometimes forumers get a little carried away and forget that a company isn't going to do anything but develop something to make them the most money as possible.


I'm afraid we're about to see firsthand why the city made a gigantic error surrendering two of downtown's most important blocks to a developer of suburban power centers and strip malls.

This doesn't make too much sense, because the city still has every right and power to comment on their proposals and submittals. If people in the city wanted something different or more "urban", all they had to do was make comments and not approve anything until it was how they (and you) think it should be. I think it is going to be decent, but not ideal.
They didn't give the parcels to RED and say "Go ahead, develop at your heart's content".

[HX_Guy]

I'm more upset about the way this is designed...the blank walls along some streets, and the inward facing retail, then the height or even the components of what make up the project. I think I would be happier with 10 story buildings on all three blocks if they were all facing the street on every street and had back alleys for loading etc.

I agree that the market dictates what gets built and that RED is in this to obviously make money. It's easy to say they should combine both hotels into one...but who says Kimpton wants a 400-500 room hotel? Maybe all they want is to manage 250 rooms like they proposed? I'm sure a lot of the details aren't exactly all up to RED.

[Phxbyrd211]

Vandercook's a nut but I can respond to PHX Native. Some business people just love to play the "poor me" card that the public are attacking them for making money. At the end of the day some of these very same people are the last ones to buy into the concepts of accountability and survival of the fittest. Everyone wants to just make money but before that a quality product must be produced or a competent service must be rendered. There may be a right to privacy in the Constitution but it certainly contains no right to profit.

RED appears not to be up to the job because besides falling behind schedule their work appears by all measure to be inferior to that of other developers both across the country and around the world. Rather than trying to leverage risk into reward or serving as the tip of the spear in their business class, RED has been handed every possible subsidy and concession by the city to revitalize the CBD. They were GIVEN a public park in the heart of our nations 5th largest city and offered the privilege to develop on the most desirable blocks Arizona has to offer. The urban builder's greatest hurdle, namely parking, was all but eliminated and their publicity was free and abundant. Now that our tax dollars are at stake I consider all Phoenicians to be RED's customers and them proportionally accountable.

It's true that some of our elected leaders have let us down as well but we have the ballot box as our recourse to deal with them. Yes, RED has stepped forward to make money, partially at tax payer expense, but they have NOT delivered what was promised. Responsibility averted
......:shrug:

[Vicelord John]

Vandercook's a nut but I can respond to PHX Native.

okay....:koko:

[Phxbyrd211]

that's what I thought when I saw your dancing :banana: for a post which seems way off.

[Downtown_resident]

I'm more upset about the way this is designed...the blank walls along some streets, and the inward facing retail, then the height or even the components of what make up the project. I think I would be happier with 10 story buildings on all three blocks if they were all facing the street on every street and had back alleys for loading etc.


These are my feelings as well. I refer to RED as a suburban developer because, prior to its foray into downtowns with CityScape, power centers, strip malls and other suburban projects were all the company had ever done. And therefore it's no wonder that the end result looks to be an inward-facing, Collier Center-esque flop.

I'll put some more thoughts on this on my blog as the project materializes, but I don't blame RED all that much (so PHX_NATIVE can relax). RED is a fish out of water trying to do something it had no experience doing, and RED laregly just responded to the city's economic incentives. I put the blame on the city for throwing away a downtown park for some mediocre retail, and for desperately searching for another "silver bullet" multi-block megaproject to "save" downtown. That formula had already failed numerous times over but that didn't stop Phoenix from giving it another go.

http://downtownphoenix.blogspot.com

[HX_Guy]

Yep...it's a crane...

http://nitnelav.com/DTJuly212008/cs1.jpg

[PHX_PD]

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/af6c0701.jpg

[PHX31]

damn, they've got a hell of a lot of work to get back to ground level... I think from now on every building should have above ground parking above ground floor retail, like Central Park East.

PHX PD, are you on the police force, or do you want to be a cop, or neither? You always seem to get night pictures, I just assumed you were a cop on the night shift snapping pics for us! Keep 'em coming.

[PHX_PD]

That's a long story PHX31, but I guess it's time I sort of introduce myself after being around for so long. I'm actually an undergrad student at ASU West, a criminal justice major. At the time I signed up I was leaning toward becoming a police officer. I'm actually an intern at the Maricopa County Attorneys Office, but I'm not a cop. Right now I'm making a push to try and get into law school at ASU (I graduate in 09). If that doesn’t work out, I guess I’ll wait and see if any job offers pop up. I still might end up with Phoenix PD, but I would prefer to go corporate whether it’s in security or law.

As for me being up at night, a lot of that is due to me being nocturnal. I love to cruise around at night when I have the streets all to myself. Having night classes helps too, and I like to stay up and do my work overnight because then nobody bothers me. My recent increase in pics can be attributed to my new camera, which has a battery that doesn’t die every 10 seconds.

[andrewkfromaz]

Take 24th and Camelback and move it to 7th Street and Roosevelt; add Desert Ridge, CityNorth, Kierland and a few other developments around this combined downtown, and we would be far more respected in the pantheon of urbanity.


Cute. Stick to law.
___________________________________________________________________________________

Phoenix sucks as a major city because there are too few major corporations head-quartered here, combined with an overall lack of knowledge capital. Moving around the city's development isn't going to fix Phoenix's problems.

[HX_Guy]

damn, they've got a hell of a lot of work to get back to ground level...

Well...according to a meeting a went to a while back, from the time they hit bottom, it should take about 3 months to reach street level. The problem is, they are behind schedule. Here is what I wrote back on March 27th after attending that meeting...

• Starting in June 2008, Central Ave between Washington and Jefferson will be closed for 12 months and excavated. The new parking garage will actuall butt up against the Patriot's Park parking garage. The old ramp on Central will be converted into an area for dry utilities (Cox, APS, etc).

• Toward the end of summer, the new ramp on Jefferson (Patriot's Park garage) will start construction.

• Patriot's Park construction will start late 2008, probably in the month of December. There will be some activities like tree removal and such starting earlier, but excavation of the surface area will come at the end of the year.

• Block 22 (middle block) excavation will be done at the end of May followed by construction of the parking garage and the office tower. Come August, columns for the office tower should be above street level.

• The condo/hotel tower will follow about 6 months behind the office tower.

• By the end of 2008, block 22 should have the retail portions of the buildings in place (PF Changs, etc) as well as the office tower close to topping out. Build time for the office tower will be about 12 months (completion late summer 2009) while the condo/hotel will have a 24 month build time (completion late 2010).

First, Central Ave is obviously not yet closed off for excavation...and that was supposed to start in June.

Second, the middle block was supposed to finish excavation by the end of May...and I'm not sure if they are even done yet. Half the block is done (where the Wachovia tower is going up) but there is still a lot of dirt and a dirt ramp in there. Either way, that seems to be 6+ weeks behind schedule.

I'm guessing the offer tower will be at street level end of September at the earliest, but more like end of November I'm thinking.

[CANUC]

:previous: Not only are they behind schedule I’m wondering if changes have been made since you attended the meeting. The reason is bullet point one.

• Starting in June 2008, Central Ave between Washington and Jefferson will be closed for 12 months and excavated. The new parking garage will actuall butt up against the Patriot's Park parking garage. The old ramp on Central will be converted into an area for dry utilities (Cox, APS, etc).
I wonder how this is possible if they have already spray cemented the periphery walls and secured them with retention anchors. Are they going to tear down the western portion of the base to extend the garage toward the PSP garage after the fact? Seems odd that they simply didn’t do this when excavation first began. Why secure a wall only to tear it down just a couple of months later?



http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/af6c0701.jpg

[Classical in Phoenix]

Something I find interesting in this thread, we have 98 pages of comments and we are just getting our first crane.

[PHX4EVER]

Which building they working on first?

[Luke Skyscraper]

Classical,
Interesting observation. Few projects in Phoenix have generated as much excitement as Cityscape. With all of the recent changes and uncertainty, fear and negative speculation are rampant! I sure hope it is all irrational worrying. Downtown PHX has gotta catch a break sometime! Time, and especially "height" will bear out who is right.

[Luke Skyscraper]

PHX4EVER, I believe it is the 27 story Wachoivia tower, as well as the retail component.

[HX_Guy]

Good news...

Wachovia still plans to move into Phoenix office building

Wachovia Corp.'s plans to be the anchor tenant of a 27-story office tower at the CityScape project in downtown Phoenix are still in tact despite the bank's financial woes.


The Charlotte, N.C.-based bank said Tuesday that it plans to cut employees and other expenses in light of an $8.9 billion second-quarter loss.

Wachovia spokeswoman Aimee Worsley said the cutbacks do not impact plans to lease three floors at the tower at Central Avenue and Washington Street. The approximately 600,000-square-foot building is slated for completion in late 2009.

Wachovia plans to move in 2010, and its lease is set to last for 10 years, Worsley said.

[PHX_PD]

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/af2a7b15.jpg

I'm curious, in this picture you can see "T.O.F." written in white letters on the wall. Does that stand for "top of foundation"?

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/3b551554.jpg

[PHX31]

/\ Yeah, that would be my guess.

Thanks for the continued pics.

[HX_Guy]

Damn, they aren't messing around with this thing...it seems to be moving pretty quick.

[BigBuilder]

Copper Square is going to get a new name. Drum roll please. >"Downtown Phoenix" I hope that's just a rumor but I have a good source. Has anyone else heard anything?

[HX_Guy]

Why do you hope its just a rumor?

I would love for it to be called exactly what it is...Downtown Phoenix, not some gimmick name.

[Sonoran_Dweller]

BigBuilder, who is you 'good source'?

[BigBuilder]

I hope it's a rumor because I like Copper Square. I think "Downtown Phoenix" is great too. :cheers:

[BigBuilder]

(I can't reveal my source. The new name is a secret at the moment) Well, not anymore because of my last post.

[nickkoto]

I could swear I heard it from multiple outlets about a month ago that the Copper Square moniker was getting phased out.


I think this Jahna Berry blog entry was where it came from first.

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/jahnaberry/25866

[plinko]

I'm curious, in this picture you can see "T.O.F." written in white letters on the wall. Does that stand for "top of foundation"?

Top of Footing

[PHX_PD]

^ Thanks, that makes more sense. Anyway, progress continues:

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/132a6b76.jpg

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/0460cbe9.jpg

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/fcbbb44e.jpg

[HX_Guy]

What exactly are the doing right now? This doesn't look much like a parking garage and why are they only working on half the lot while the other half isn't even fully excavated?

They are also starting to do quite a bit of work on the Patriot's Square block, demolishing some of the planters, sidewalk, etc on the south end of the park.

Here are some daytime pictures from today...

http://nitnelav.com/DTJuly252008/4.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/DTJuly252008/6.jpg

[HX_Guy]

Just got an email from CityScape...no mention of any apartments, which I thought were part of the first phase.

CityScape is preparing to go vertical.

A 250 foot tower crane was placed on the middle block of the project recently, representing a major construction milestone for CityScape. Phase I, on schedule to open in December 2009, includes a 565,000 square-foot office building, approximately 200,000 square-feet of retail and restaurant space and 1,250 below grade parking spaces.

Your continued support of the CityScape project is greatly appreciated. We will continue to keep you updated on the project as construction milestones are achieved. For more information on the project, visit www.CityScapePHX.com

[AZ KID]

Ugh i really hope the appartments are built. I believe they are a very important aspect of cityscape and without them this project will sink even lower.

[BigBuilder]

'Downtoen Phoenix" is not mentioned in the blog. But my source says that's the name in first place at the moment. It could change.

Readers suggested: "Urban Heat Vortex":hell: & "Pretentious Palisades"



I could swear I heard it from multiple outlets about a month ago that the Copper Square moniker was getting phased out.


I think this Jahna Berry blog entry was where it came from first.

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/jahnaberry/25866

[BigBuilder]

so, is it 34 stories or 36 stories...

http://southwest.construction.com/features/archive/0807_cover_1.asp July 2008

Charlotte, N.C-based Wachovia Corporation will anchor the 27-story 600,000-sq-ft Class A office tower. This building is targeted for LEED certification, with high-performance glazing systems and electrical and mechanical systems to optimize efficiency.

Adjacent to this will be a 34-story tower. San Francisco-based Kimpton Hotels & Restaurants will operate a 250-room Hotel Palomar up to the 14th floor. From the 15th floor, the phase two building will include 165 luxury residential condominium units.

RED expects the first phase to open in 2009 and the entire project to be complete by 2011.


All of the neagtive people on here yet we are getting everything as promised minus 85' from the 500' tower. Not bad considering the rest of the country is in a meltdown. RED should go for 500' and copy 2000' Chicago Spire as a city tallest. The spire is 30% Sold out and it's still a hole in the ground.

[PHX_PD]

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/80303adf.jpg

[HX_Guy]

Even on a Sunday night there were people working on this thing?

[PHX_PD]

Yeah, I think they've been working at least 20 hours a day since they started the foundation. I expect that will continue for the duration of the project.

Edit: Here is a quote from an article about the Sheraton. "Most days they run from 1:00 in the morning until 10:00 at night during the week." That seems to be about the same time-frame CityScape is using right now. So 1 am is technically the Monday morning shift.

[BigBuilder]

PHX, Thank you for the picture updates. That crew is working fast!

[PHX_PD]

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/6fbe81c2.jpg

[AZ KID]

:) Its just amazing! I cant believe there are such dramatic differences in such a short time.:)

[HX_Guy]

Say good bye to Patriot's Square...


Alas, Phoenix laser wasn't such a bright idea
Once-ballyhooed attraction being torn down

by Michael Clancy - Aug. 2, 2008 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

Work to dismantle downtown Phoenix's laser begins today, with hardly a soul to lament its demise.

When the steel spider of a structure was built in 1986, it was billed as Phoenix's answer to the Eiffel Tower. It operated for less than a year before its lasers were turned off for good.

Now, the laser and Patriots Square, where it was situated, are being torn down to make room for CityScape, a huge, mixed-use project stretching from First Avenue to Second Street between Washington and Jefferson streets. Dismantling the structure will take three weeks.

"I am not shedding any tears over it," said Attorney General Terry Goddard, who was mayor at the time the laser was installed. "The concept was noble, but frankly, it never worked."

The laser was the brainchild of architect Ted Alexander, and it captured the imagination of at least some people at the beginning, in the mid-'80s.

Patriots Square was being rebuilt to include underground parking, and a contract for design of the park went to Alexander.

In an early story in The Phoenix Gazette, Alexander said the laser would give the city "a town square that is unequaled anywhere in the country."

The laser was just the centerpiece. The amphitheater underneath the laser structure promised night after night of entertainment, fountains were supposed to keep everyone cool, vendors would keep everyone fed, and twinkling lights would illuminate the trees.

"The laser display is in perfect keeping with Phoenix's standing as a center of high technology and its aspirations to become even more so," The Arizona Republic said in an editorial.

"It would have been only half a park without the lasers," County Supervisor Mary Rose Wilcox said at the time, when she was serving as vice mayor. "Now, it's really going to shine."

It all was planned to open by fall 1987, with donations of lasers from Phoenix Newspapers Inc. and money from Valley National Bank, which subsequently became Chase Bank.

But park costs escalated, and it took years to open, mainly because of leakage into the garage below.

The laser did not illuminate the night sky until December 1990.

The public was underwhelmed, and in short order, the mood changed.

Less than four months after its gala unveiling, the laser was targeted in a city budget cut. Operation and repair costs were higher than expected. Sometime in the summer of 1991, the laser had its last show, dying not with a bang but a whimper.

Alexander, in an interview in 2004, said the decision to shut down the lasers was "tragic."

But he added that if that was what the city wanted, "That's fine with me."

Wilcox said most people "thought the laser would be more dynamic."

"We didn't really get what we wanted," she added.

The park itself received a more proper sendoff in the form of loud protests against turning it over to the developers of the CityScape development. CityScape opponents, although agreeing the park was not all it could be, lost their argument that the city should redevelop the park, not give it away.

Now, the block and two others to the east are under construction. Besides office and hotel towers, the developers promise the project will incorporate open space, more than Patriots Square offered.

Wilcox said cities ought to try new things, even if they don't end up functioning as expected.

"I think it's sad the laser never worked out right," she said. "At least the area will remain a central gathering place."

Goddard is not convinced.

"I'm not sure turning it over to a private developer was the right thing to do," he said. "As far as the open space goes, I will be sorry to see it go."

[HooverDam]

Does anyone have pictures of PSP w/ the laser on? I don't recall ever seeing it, I think they stopped using it long before I started paying attention to downtown.

[Vicelord John]

my brother took me to use the lazers when I was a little kid. I thought it was pretty cool then, but there were also less bums at the time.

[gymratmanaz]

Even then I bet you tried to shoot the homeless.

[Vicelord John]

I wouldn't shoot a homeless....

unless he was trying to kill me and I had no other route of escape.

[Phxbyrd211]

Here's a mental exercise for you:

spend the day watching some of the best urban zombie movies.....

then go downtown and contemplate the homless problem.:twoguns:

[PHX_PD]

Random pic of the CityScape crane:

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/a05bbfa6.jpg

Progress in the hole:

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/23783b82.jpg

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/d07828ad.jpg

The laser thing prepares to meet its demise. I was hoping to see them smash it, but it looks like they're carefully taking it apart one piece at a time.

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/c467cbe2.jpg

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/659b024c.jpg

[AZ KID]

Great pictures PHX PD

But can any one tell me what the hell is going on at the moment? Also are they still digging the rest of the dirt out of the east side?

[PHX_PD]

I think they're using the other side of the hole as a temporary staging area. It's probably easier to pour cement and store or move materials from down there than it is on the street.

If you look at HX_Guy's last pictures...


http://nitnelav.com/DTJuly252008/4.jpg


The wall on the West side of the hole seems to be very haphazardly constructed compared to the other ones. It isn't flush with the street, the soil nails don't look as precise, and it isn't as smooth. They probably had to temporarily shore it up just to prevent collapse. If they didn't shore it up there and finished digging the rest of the hole, then Central would have to be closed for a few additional months while there was no structural work being done. So, my guess is they'll start doing all of that (removing the dirt, leveling the site, and building the parking structure) after the office tower rises at least above the base of its own foundation. Anyway, that's just a guess, I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Edit: I am under the assumption that the parking garage will still extend under Central and that what they are working on now is beneath where the lowest level of the garage will be.

[AZ KID]

WOW that totaly makes sense (if your right ;))

[gymratmanaz]

I agree. I think one of the construction guys told me tat the garage will be connected together to form on hug one. I bet they will close central and dig down to join the two. They are holding off to keep it open as long as possible.

They sure are making progress quickly. Each day you can see great changes.

[vertex]

I thought that they were renovating the Patriot's Square parking garage, not rebuilding it from scratch?

[BigBuilder]

The last pictures just made this construction site look real to me.:cheers:

[vwwolfe]

On Channel 10 news this morning, they showed video of them doing an all night mat pour last night. I couldn't believe how many workers were down in the hole. It looked very busy.

[kevininlb]

This was posted on abc15.com

http://www.abc15.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=c11ca39a-4361-49b9-9e30-0b61ff2560c4

edit: I should add there's not much to it.

[combusean]

@#$!

The article's accompanying video was almost about to be cool until they completely dissed downtown's restaurant scene. We wonder why downtown has problems when we have people like this perpetuating its myths and woes.

[Hysonk]

Drove by Patriots Park yesterday. It looks so much better being torn down than it ever did in it's heyday.

[HX_Guy]

Nevermind.

[PHX4EVER]

This was posted on abc15.com

http://www.abc15.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=c11ca39a-4361-49b9-9e30-0b61ff2560c4

edit: I should add there's not much to it.Reading this article i didn't see that they include hotel too.Is it hotel still in works OR......?:???:

[HX_Guy]

The hotel was mentioned in another article...

The crappy part is that I don't see apartments mentioned in either phase I or II.

CityScape Developer Reaches Another Construction Milestone

August 4, 2008 · By Bill AustingravatarcloseAuthor: Bill Austin Name: Bill Austin

pproximately 2,000-Yards of Concrete Poured at the CityScape Site

RED Development, developer of CityScape, reached another construction milestone today with a continuous concrete pour of the core of the office building.

The operation, led by Hunt Construction and Suntec Concrete, began at 12:00 a.m. this morning and will continue for approximately 7 hours. By day’s end, roughly 2,000 cubic-yards of concrete will create the mat foundation for what will soon be known as the One East Washington Office Tower. The 560,000 square-foot tower, scheduled for completion in December 2009, will be home to Squire, Sanders & Dempsey L.L.P. and the Wachovia Corporation.

“We are excited to see the foundation poured on a project that has been years in the making,” said Mike Ebert, Managing Partner at RED Development, LLC. “An amazing amount of collaboration between the City of Phoenix and our development team was required to get CityScape, Downtown Phoenix’s premier mixed-use project, where it is today.”

In addition to the pour, construction of the new Jefferson Street entrance ramp to the Patriot’s Park garage and removal of the laser light tower is underway. Construction of the new park and associated surface improvements will commence in early 2009 and complete later that year.

“This construction milestone marks an important step for a project that will benefit the city of Phoenix,” said Mayor Phil Gordon. “CityScape is a mixed-use project that brings retail, restaurants, residential, office and hotel space to the heart of the downtown where residents live, work and play.”

Construction on this multi-phase development began in October of 2007. In addition to the office building, Phase I also includes approximately 200,000 square-feet of retail and restaurant space and 1,250 below grade parking spaces. CityScape’s second phase includes condominium units and a four-star Kimpton Hotel Palomar.

[kevininlb]

:previous: Well, yeah, but aren't the apartments part of what's going up at PSP? And there are only a few apartments, right? I'm trying to remember -- I seem to recall these being part of low-rise buildings over retail, or something.

Sorry, I provided no insight, only thoughts.

[HX_Guy]

It was supposed to be 65 apartments over retail along 1st Ave in front of the light rail station.

[HooverDam]

The hotel was mentioned in another article...

The crappy part is that I don't see apartments mentioned in either phase I or II.

Not to mention there's been no references to the two condo towers on the furthest East block for a long time. I suppose thats 'phase 3, but its looking more and more like it won't ever happen.

[HX_Guy]

That was supposed to be phase 3 and phase 4 all along. One tower was part of phase 3...and then if market condition were good enough, they would do the 4th tower in phase 4.

[gymratmanaz]

I was at the D-Back game last night....AWESOME....and stopped by to watch the work on Cityscape. Damn they are moving right along. It was fascinating to watch. The crane was in action raising rebar waals. Three guys were litterally scaling the rebar side walls, after being lifted up by crane. They were like rock climbers up 40-50 feet scaling back and forth on the 60 foot rebar outside walls. Cool Cool Cool!!!