Phoenix CityScape Thread

[combusean]

I felt that way almost 20 years ago when the Arizona Center first opened. There were huge crowds there for the first few years, but by the mid-'90s, they began to search out the next trendy attraction. I'm normally optimistic, but I hope this is not a case of deja vu. After seeing big projects fall short of their goals for two decades, I'm much more impressed with nearby places like Hanny's, Cartel, etc. -- places that do something cool with an old building or a modest storefront.

I remember my dad being extremely fickle about downtown in the 1990s and not liking the hassle about any of it. We stopped going to Sun's games because he thought America West Arena was too much of a pain in the ass.

Downtown didn't really register on a lot of people's minds back then. The newness of Phoenix's late-term urban renewal (Arizona Center, AWA, and Chase Field) lost any cachet with overall bad design.

15 years later downtown registers on a lot more people...


When the Arizona Center first opened, it had a cluster of nightclubs known as "Phoenix Live." Under one umbrella, there a was a sports bar, a dance club, a pub, and a dueling piano bar. During the early '90s, Phoenix Live was packed almost every night with people who came from all over the metro area. Then, in the middle of the decade the crowds thinned, and by 2000 the complex was gone with its space, which was mostly on the second floor, converted to offices. The lesson I take from this is that nightlife preferences are always fickle. You can create a sensation with almost anything for a while, but then people move on. That's why I'm skeptical about Lucky Strike and the Comedy Club having a lot of staying power. They'll definitely draw crowds for a few years, but the long-term outlook is challenging without more of a residential base near CityScape. I hope I'm wrong, but so much of what is happening now feels like deja vu from two decades ago.

Somebody actually programmed it to be this one-stop-shop for entertainment? No wonder it died. You're right about those places being extremely fickle and rarely make money in the long term. None of the ones I went to are still around...I think they tore down Pompeii and "The World" (?) is Palazzo now. I remember reading reviews about the dueling piano bar and being mildly curious until everybody called it a one-star tourist trap.

I'd like to think there's far more of a convergence of people instead of just sports fans and office dwellers than we had in the 1990s to support venues at places like CityScape for the long term.

The threat of DUIs and the light rail will do wonders for lack of a nearby residential base ...

[gymratmanaz]

Call Phil!!!!!! We want an announcement!

[combusean]

The Arizona Center was pretty much the only place my parents took me on a regular basis downtown when I was younger (like early high school). We'd go to either hooters or whatever used to be in place of Sam's Cafe. It's strange to think we'd trek down there on a Sat night just to go to the Arizona Center. My parents never go there anymore, but they love going with me to places like Cibo, or TMI, or other little downtown joints now. So yeah, they went for a while to the AZ Center when it first opened, but never go back now...

It's really odd how the AZ Center's outdoor mall concept was about 20 years ahead of its time. In the meantime, it just seems to be waiting for WestCor to buy it. I can just see AZ Center being the perfect island on downtown's edge for suburbanites in condo towers and hotels surrounded by a comfortable mix of chain stores with the Hooters forever on the edge leading them out to the real world ...

[PHX31]

They did say an announcement would be made in the morning this week but I can totally see tomorrow coming and going and no announcement.

So they have this huge event at CityScape with lights, cameras, the mayor's state of downtown speech, etc., and they DON'T make a big announcement? WTF else is the point of a huge To-Do like that?

"Hey guys thanks for coming out to this big announcement... I'd like to announce that an announcement will be made later this week!!! :notacrook: "

[gymratmanaz]

I am guessing sometimes you have to wait to make things final. Do you want an announcement that then falls through?

With that, there better be AN ANNOUNCEMENT!!!! :)

[Vicelord John]

I have a major announcement to make. I need everyone to be quiet.


CANNONBALL!

[HX_Guy]

Yea, so I'm going to go ahead and say there is no announcement. Fucking lame, why make a big deal about it last week if you can't deliver on it?

[Evil Empire]

It's really odd how the AZ Center's outdoor mall concept was about 20 years ahead of its time. In the meantime, it just seems to be waiting for WestCor to buy it. I can just see AZ Center being the perfect island on downtown's edge for suburbanites in condo towers and hotels surrounded by a comfortable mix of chain stores with the Hooters forever on the edge leading them out to the real world ...

http://willdo.philadelphiaweekly.com/archives/020507suburbanites.jpg

[combusean]

make it stop MAKE IT STOP!!!! nooooooo! *glargle oooooommmpphhh* *passes out*

[Vicelord John]

Vitamin T is to open Friday the 19th. They were supposed to open on the 12th but got held up by the city. Anyone else planning on checking it out?

[bwonger06]

I will check it out but it seems like it is going to be pretty expensive plus my carne asada loyalties lie somewhere else.

I wish they would of held off on the grand opening party until everything opened. Hopefully they can get a lot of people down there when they light the tree so other stores can attempt to capture future customers.

[Vicelord John]

I won't be going there for carne asada. That's the white mans idea of mexican food anyway. I hear homemade tamales and sonoran hot dogs and I'm there.

Please don't tell me your loyalty lies with Terry's one trick pony wife.

[bwonger06]

Please don't tell me your loyalty lies with Terry's one trick pony wife.

Heck no... its Charlies. I tried the taco truck by 16th and Van Buren and it was not comparable. They do however have a more extensive menu which is why I visit every once in a while.

[Vicelord John]

Heck no... its Charlies. I tried the taco truck by 16th and Van Buren and it was not comparable. They do however have a more extensive menu which is why I visit every once in a while.

Hmm... I'll have to try it. Meat burrito at a gay bar... no homo

[HX_Guy]

What's this "Charlies"?

[HooverDam]

What's this "Charlies"?

Gay bar on 7th/Camelback with a Cowboy theme. I was a Boom Mic Operator on a MTV Reality show that filmed in there once and was constantly interrupted by guys asking if they could "Hold my pole."

[bwonger06]

What's this "Charlies"?

7th Ave + Camelback. It is on the southwest corner and the food truck is located on the empty dirt lot from Thursdays through Sundays after 9pm. It really is the best in terms of their chicken and carne asada. Unfortunately, their menu is very limited (chicken/carne asada tacos, quesedilla, burittos, nachos and hamburgers).

[combusean]

I will also vouch for the Charlie's taco truck. All night long you can hear the chopping of meat (no pun intended) and the food smell is delicious. Charlie's itself, on the other hand, smells terrible so it's a welcome respite.

They're in the parking lot in front and serve bar patrons through a weird wooden door passthrough. You have the option of accessing it from Camelback and bypassing *most of the bar*, altho people frequently pick their food up after they've left.

[Vicelord John]

I'm gonna have to try it. I grew up here living in Maryvale, most of my friends families owned Mexican restaurants. I'm looking for more than just taste so I'll let you know what I think afterward. I gotta be honest though, going near Charlie's scares me. I got my junk cupped the moment I walked in there once, and it was mid day and sunny so my eyes hadn't adjusted and I couldn't see a damn thing inside, including who was grabbing me... ugh. I wish women did that at bars...

[bwonger06]

I'm gonna have to try it. I grew up here living in Maryvale, most of my friends families owned Mexican restaurants. I'm looking for more than just taste so I'll let you know what I think afterward. I gotta be honest though, going near Charlie's scares me. I got my junk cupped the moment I walked in there once, and it was mid day and sunny so my eyes hadn't adjusted and I couldn't see a damn thing inside, including who was grabbing me... ugh. I wish women did that at bars...

Don't go inside. Go directly to the truck and you avoid the men.

[Tempe_Duck]

Info on the Ice Rink:

http://www.cityscapephoenix.com/icerink/

PHOENIX – Installation will begin this week at the newly opened CityScape project in downtown Phoenix on a special holiday treat for Phoenix citizens: a frozen ice skating rink, open daily to the public. The rink will join a Holiday Tree and vivid displays of holiday lights and ornaments, rekindling a downtown seasonal tradition that has been dormant for several years.

The rink will open on Saturday, November 27 and operate through January 15, 2011, from 3 to 11 p.m. From opening night until December 22, special “Skating with Santa” hours will occur nightly at 6 and 8 p.m.

The rink, located on the west block of the project, between Central and First Avenue in Patriots Square, will include real ice – the kind usually found only in refrigerator freezers in Phoenix. Local residents will have the opportunity to rent skates or bring their own and glide across the surface of the rink (large enough for approximately 100 skaters), set up for holiday celebration, adjacent to a new Holiday Tree dedicated to the citizens of Phoenix. The cost is $10 per skater, and skaters may stay as long as they like.

“This will be an annual tradition,” said Mike Ebert, of RED Development, operator of CityScape. “CityScape is not only the geographic center of downtown Phoenix, but we intend for it to be the heartbeat of activity in downtown, as well. It’s a place for the community to gather and we felt like an ice skating rink at the holidays is really a fun thing to share with people.”

The ice rink will be operated by American Skating Entertainment Centers, the largest independent operator of ice rink facilities in the United States – including Seasonal outdoor rinks in Los Angeles, Denver, Raleigh, N.C., and Washington, D.C. The rink will be named for NRG Thermal, the energy company which operates the city’s downtown, underground Northwind air conditioning and cooling system, and the rink’s largest sponsor. CityScape tenants, RED Development, Ballard Spahr, Squire Sanders, Alliance Bank, and CityScape contractors Hunt and Suntec, provided sponsorship support for the rink.

“The NRG CityScape Ice Rink will offer skaters the unique experience of skating in downtown Phoenix while overlooking the new CityScape Holiday Tree,” said Brad Berman, ASEC President. Berman said the rink would be built on the elevated portion of the Patriots Square plaza, and the setting would include holiday music and hot chocolate.

Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon said he was thrilled to see the park space at CityScape being put to use so quickly and in such a creative manner.

“The goal for this project was to breathe life into the center of downtown and to revitalize a park that had been neglected and forgotten,” Mayor Gordon said. “There is no better time for the community to come together than at the holidays and there is no finer tradition for holiday celebration than ornaments on a tree and an ice skating rink.”

“We never say anything is impossible in Phoenix – even outdoor ice rinks,” the Mayor said. “As for skating on it – I’ll leave that to my son Jake.”

Ebert said the tenants at CityScape answered the call when the developer asked for sponsors for the rink, showing how much they care about the heart of the city.

“Our tenants chose to be downtown and they are committed to downtown,” Ebert said. “We can’t thank them enough for stepping forward and helping us to do something special for the entire community.”

[gymratmanaz]

Coolness!!!

[Phxguy]

Good to hear that it'll be an annual tradition at Cityscape now and not a one time thing.

[Vicelord John]

Good to hear that it'll be an annual tradition at Cityscape now and not a one time thing.

There are never guarantees.

[SunDevil]

There are never guarantees.
kinda ironic. just sayin'.

[HX_Guy]

http://www.azcentral.com/thingstodo/dining/articles/2010/11/15/20101115aaron-mays-vitamin-t-opens-cityscape-phoenix.html

Vitamin T opens Friday and again has good hours...open till 11pm 7 days a week.

[Phxguy]

There are never guarantees.

How true, but sometimes false hope does work.

[gymratmanaz]

ice rink started getting installed today.

[dtnphx]

So, no word on the big tenant signing on for huge space at Cityscape? The amount seemed as though it would have to be above the hotel. Any word on the crane getting heightened?

[gymratmanaz]

HX and I were talking last night and he said that he saw in the new permit that the crane height was cleared for 300 ft, I believe he said.

[Vicelord John]

I'm sure the crane won't move until the building gets up a few stories.

[gymratmanaz]

Thinkin' the same John.

[dtnphx]

HX and I were talking last night and he said that he saw in the new permit that the crane height was cleared for 300 ft, I believe he said.

Can't wait for the big erection! :banana:

[Vicelord John]

I've got a big erection... oh wait.

I'm going to go to Vitamin T on Friday after work. Anyone want to join? Probably 9pm or so.

[gymratmanaz]

Got a show, or i would. ;(

[Vicelord John]

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/4837f62a.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/cafee749.jpg

[glynnjamin]

from CityScape's twitter
http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/large/194872555.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0ZRYP5X5F6FSMBCCSE82&Expires=1290125178&Signature=ZdcrAJqd3OroaOsCKJuXgRE7Ts4%3D

Exciting. Will be one of the first things I do when I get back for Xmas.

[BA744PHX]

am I the only that thinks that is way to small?

[Vicelord John]

It looks bigger up close...

[HX_Guy]

Vitamin T opening has been delayed due to permits. No word on when it will open other than "As soon as possible."

[Vicelord John]

Vitamin T opening has been delayed due to permits. No word on when it will open other than "As soon as possible."

MOTHER FUCKER!

I was JUST making plans for tonight... I wonder if it is really due to permitting. Last night I walked by and there were no tables, chairs, cooking products, etc. I'd think at least dry goods would be there the night before opening.

On another note, the "glass" around the "ice rink" has been put up. Looks about done.

[gymratmanaz]

I wonder how big a tree they will have?

[HX_Guy]

This is from their Facebook...

We want to feed you . . . we promise!

In fact, our staff is trained and the fresh ingredients are waiting in the fridge, begging to be made into delicioso Vitamin T. But at the once hora, it appears there are a few snags with the construction code at our humble puesta that need to be quickly addressed.

When can we open? We'll let you know as soon as we know! Promise.

When do we want to open? Last week!

Again, lo siento, por favor. Trust us, we'll spread the word the moment we get the green light. Gracias--

And looks like you weren't the only one who had plans to visit tonight...unless you're the same person and you're posing as a girl on Facebook. :D

Sad news, my entire night was planned out around your grand opening :( ... Hope to hear from you soon with a new date.

[bwonger06]

On top of that, the Mexican food in front of charlies was closed yesterday (and most likely this weekend). Where will I get my mexican food fix?

[HX_Guy]

Aqui!

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs578.ash2/150022_10150322459575594_633135593_15764980_5191942_n.jpg

[img]http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs601.ash2/155296_10150322458640594_633135593_15764975_6581986_n.jpg

Was there this morning. :D

[Vicelord John]

That place..... Omg ive never had anytging like it.

Try it hammered at 2am some time. Youll poo yoirself its so good.

[dtnphx]

Based on CoStar, the current office tower is 64.8% occupied. There is approx. 200K SF available. Sounds like this is not the lease we were expecting for a second tower above the Kimpton, rather just filling up the first building--which is still great news, with tons more people downtown.

UnitedHealthcare may be next CityScape tenant

Phoenix Business Journal - by Jan Buchholz
Date: Friday, November 19, 2010, 4:34pm MST

Acouple of weeks ago, this blog revealed that CityScape had plans to build an ice rink, albeit a fabricated one, for the holidays. A little bit of Rockefeller Center in downtown Phoenix.

Though RED Development Vice President Keith Earnest said the ice rink wasn’t a done deal, the development company’s website announced Thursday that construction of the rink is under way.

At the same time, Earnest would not comment about rumors that the CityScape office tower would soon enjoy nearly 100 percent occupancy with the signing of a lease with a major health care company. Earnest said he wouldn’t talk about any future tenants, period.

But the rumors have persisted, and now the Business Journal has learned that the likely candidate is UnitedHealthcare, which has offices spread throughout the Valley.

Two prominent leasing brokers in town said they knew of the deal, but thought it hadn’t been signed yet.

One called it “fresh market news.” UnitedHealthcare spokesman Will Shanley was not showing his cards, either.

“We haven’t finalized anything as it relates to our real estate,” Shanley said. “We don’t comment on specific properties until things are set. In general, I can say we are always evaluating our operations and space, that we have to make sure it meets our needs.”

The possibility that hundreds of health-related employees could be headed downtown is good news where the predominant tenants are mostly law firms and other professional services. Even though no new jobs would be created, the potential relocation of some UnitedHealthcare employees would bring more action to downtown, which has always struggled to produce some palpable urban energy. Time will tell.

In the meantime, sharpen those old skates and don’t worry about thin ice. We are assured that the holiday ice rink will not melt in the warm Phoenix sunshine.

[Vicelord John]

Rockefeller Center, eh? Someone is smoking the good shit.

[pbenjamin]

United Healthcare takes up a lot of space in Park Central at the moment, or at least it looks like that from 3rd Ave.

[Vicelord John]

United Healthcare takes up a lot of space in Park Central at the moment, or at least it looks like that from 3rd Ave.

Thats just a call center, AFAIK.

[Evil Empire]

Aqui!

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs578.ash2/150022_10150322459575594_633135593_15764980_5191942_n.jpg

Was there this morning. :D

Donde esta eso?

[bwonger06]

Just made another trip over there and I still like to reiterate, the place in Charlies is much better if you want a simply carne asada or chicken burrito. Split both with a friend and the chicken held to Charlies but the carne asada still has a ways to go.

And I figured it was another company from within the valley. It really stinks that we cannot attract outside companies but at least we are building critical mass in the downtown area.

Lets just hope the other new tenant to the north is a new outside company that will create more jobs.

[Vicelord John]

^^ charlie's wasnt just named "one of the 30 dishes tha make us glad we live in Phoenix" by Arizona Republic, La Frontera was. Charlie's didnt win a best of AZ, La Frontera did.

It's you, not the truck.

[HX_Guy]

Donde esta eso?

A la Van Buren y 16th St.

[Evil Empire]

A la Van Buren y 16th St.

Gracias :cheers:

[gymratmanaz]

I saw that they had some of the tree lights on last night. They really look nice. The trunks are wrapped in white lights and they have dangling lights hanging in the trees too that move. It will be fun to see how far they go with lights and Christmas decorations!

Charming Charlies is coming along great. Love the glass elevator!

[renone]

I will likely never buy a single thing from Charming Charlies, but it looks very nice on that corner. I drove through that intersection last night and between Urban and CC it looks very inviting.

[gymratmanaz]

i agree, nothing for us there, but it is a cool corner.

In my cast, tons have gone to Urban Outfitters. Seems fairly constant when i have been there, traffic wise.

[Vicelord John]

I think Urban Outfitters will be busy no matter what the location. CC, I don't know enough about, but my girlfriend is beyond excited and thinks it will be packed with women on their lunch breaks, club goers on the weekend, pre concert and sporting events, as well as ASU students. We'll see if that's true, but she keeps pretty on top of shopping trends so I assume she is right.

[PHX31]

OK, so this may be a dumb question for some of you... but I know some of you have kept a keen eye on all of the happenings at CityScape. I however don't care as much and have given up trying to figure out what's going where, how big it's going to be, and when it's going to be there, so hopefully you can help out.

What food places are open right now at CityScape?

I know Lucky Strike (is their food good? I've only drank there) and Five Guys are open, but anything else?

I'm planning on going to CityScape this afternoon for something, but I'll go eat elsewhere if there isn't anything besides Lucky Strike and Five Guys open.

[HX_Guy]

Lucky Strike and Five Guys are in fact the only food places open right now. Lucky Strike does have good food but a pretty small selection.

[Vicelord John]

OK, so this may be a dumb question for some of you... but I know some of you have kept a keen eye on all of the happenings at CityScape. I however don't care as much and have given up trying to figure out what's going where, how big it's going to be, and when it's going to be there, so hopefully you can help out.

What food places are open right now at CityScape?

I know Lucky Strike (is their food good? I've only drank there) and Five Guys are open, but anything else?

I'm planning on going to CityScape this afternoon for something, but I'll go eat elsewhere if there isn't anything besides Lucky Strike and Five Guys open.


It wouldn't be a dumb question if you hadn't been like the 3rd person to post the same thing in a couple of weeks. Vitamin T will be opening any day now.

Lucky Strike has a pretty large menu of steaks, some seafood, pizzas, etc. My guess is HX_Guy hasn't seen the real menu and has only seen the "lounge menu" hence his reference to the small menu.

[HX_Guy]

Hmm, you're right... I didn't even know they had a different menu. I've only seen the one they give you when you bowl on a Saturday night.

[Phxguy]

Anybody think the clothing stores at Cityscape will be packed on Black Friday? I'm pretty sure it will.

[Vicelord John]

lol, yeah cityscape is going to be the biggest draw for shopping on black friday. pass the joint over man.

[gymratmanaz]

Urban Outfitters will be 50% off!!!!!

[gymratmanaz]

Talked to one of the guys putting the ice rink in tonight. He said they make the ice by spraying the chilling tubes with water from a regular garden hose sprayer. They spray it over and over and that is how it builds up. They do not just flood at a wait for it to freeze. They have to do it small layer by layer till it builds up.

I asked him about the tree and he had talked earlier to the guy putting it in. he say it is going to be pretty big. He couldn't say how big but he thought it would be "Huge".

More light going tonight. Gonna be a cool Christmas place when they finish with it..... Kinda wish the white tree lights would stay all year. Looks cool!

[Vicelord John]

I hate christmas. And no, im not a jew, Im jew'ish. Har har har.

[Vicelord John]

Nvm the bicycle... There is a large patio on the 2nd floor of the 1st street side. Gonna be a great place for outdoor dining.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/1f17e98c.jpg

[Locofresh55]

Nvm the bicycle... There is a large patio on the 2nd floor of the 1st street side. Gonna be a great place for outdoor dining.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/1f17e98c.jpg

I don't know man...the bike ain't too bad either. :tup:

[Vicelord John]

The tree is a fucking joke. Ive seen bigger ones in friends homes.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/d164523d.jpg

[BA744PHX]

^^^^^ LOL looks like the tree was on a diet

[Vicelord John]

^ you ain't lyin. Cityscape got screwed.

[HX_Guy]

Thought the exact same thing last night, what an underwhelming tree. What the he'll happened?

The ice rink is pretty gimmicky too...it's really a children's thing, not really what I expected but it did bring some people out there and I guess that was really the point of it.

[Teacher_AZ_84]

What a sad lil' tree. How very depressing...

[Leo the Dog]

C'mon guys, the tree cost at least $60.

Money doesn't grow on trees these days.

[HooverDam]

we expected anything else from Cityscape?

[RichTempe]

Even the tree at Tempe Marketplace is better.

[combusean]

*facepalm* wtf?

[Jsmscaleros]

That there's a recession tree.

[HX_Guy]

Vitamin T opening this Thursday at 11am.

[Vicelord John]

Maybe.... I heard from a big bird that it may be next month.

[HX_Guy]

Just going off what they posted on Facebook/Twitter.

[phoenixwillrise]

Thought the exact same thing last night, what an underwhelming tree. What the he'll happened?

The ice rink is pretty gimmicky too...it's really a children's thing, not really what I expected but it did bring some people out there and I guess that was really the point of it.

I agree. I appreciate that City Scape is trying to "make something happen" dowtown but sometimes you can really create a negative by doing something "Mickey Mouse" , both the rink and the tree are "HO" scale. They would have been better off doing a more substantial tree and forgetting the rink.

[Vicelord John]

HX_Guy, we'll see who is right.... my source or yours. I honestly don't know... maybe we can wager on it.

[HooverDam]

http://www.downtownphoenixjournal.com/2010/11/29/sneak-peek-vitamin-t-radiatephx/

Sneak a Peek of Vitamin T at RadiatePHX
Posted by DPJ Staff on 11/29/10

RadiatePHX has a habit of visiting the newest culinary destinations in Downtown Phoenix and this month is no exception.

Tuesday night, Chef Aaron May will open the doors to Vitamin T, and you’re invited.

The menu features a delectable selection of tortas, tamales and tacos, in homage to its street food inspiration. And yes, another ‘T’, tequila, is also in house.

Space is limited, so please RSVP. Oh, and all who purchase one of those mouth-watering eats mentioned above get a cerveza on the house. Enticed yet?

RadiatePHX runs from 5:30 to 7:30 p.m. Vitamin T is located at 1 E. Washington St. at CityScape. RSVP at radiatephx.com or on Facebook.

Ill be working so I can't make this, but figured some of you might be interested.

[Vicelord John]

Thanks WILL!

David and I were both there. Decent food nothing special but a nice place none the less.

[exit2lef]

Thanks WILL!

David and I were both there. Decent food nothing special but a nice place none the less.

Yes, I finally met the Vicelord face-to-face. I liked my torta's filling and all the salsas at the condiment bar. My one suggestion for improvement would have been to heat up the bolillo/telera on a griddle instead of in a steam tray. I'll definitely visit again and explore the menu.

[plinko]

Absolut Fail.


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/d164523d.jpg

[Vicelord John]

Absolut Fail.

Oh, the irony.

[dtnphx]

Oh, the irony.

The tree is douchy. The concept of scale-huh? Remember the Rockefeller Center comparisons? Delusional.

BTW, how many ornaments on that thing 10, 12? Argh...

[HX_Guy]

The construction of Oakville Grocery can finally start now that they had a building permit issued today...

Permit# BLD-T531397 Issue Date Expires 12/1/12
Permit Description
Project 06-5309 CITYSCAPE

Description/Scope of Work: COMMERCIAL NEW

DESCRIPTION OF WORK: A TENANT FINISH OUT OF A 9359 SF (GROSS AREA) RETAIL SPACE TO INCLUDE 6923 SF OF GROCERY AND AN ANCILLARY AND ACCESSORY 2436 SF STAGING (STORAGE) AREA; THE GROCERY WILL SELL BOTH FRESH AND PREPARED FOODS, PRODUCTS, CONDIMENTS, DAIRY PRODUCTS, NON-ALCOHOLIC AND ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES, TO INCLUDE WINE AND BEER, FOR TAKE OUT; THERE WILL BE LIMITED PATIO SEATING AND A SMALL WINE BAR; THE STAGING (STORAGE) SPACE WILL BE USED FOR PRODUCT STORAGE FOR THE RETAIL STORE OPERATION, SEASONAL AND CATERING EVENTS AND OUTSIDE SALES

[PHX31]

The tree is douchy. The concept of scale-huh? Remember the Rockefeller Center comparisons? Delusional.

BTW, how many ornaments on that thing 10, 12? Argh...

No kidding, this whole project is delusional... at least the morons behind the marketing of it are. They must be really stupid if they think people are stupid enough to believe any of their hyperbole.

Like someone said before, nix the ice rink and get a truely grandiose tree. The first thing that came to mind when I saw the tree pic was charlie brown's christmas tree.

[Gump]

No kidding, this whole project is delusional... at least the morons behind the marketing of it are. They must be really stupid if they think people are stupid enough to believe any of their hyperbole.

Like someone said before, nix the ice rink and get a truely grandiose tree. The first thing that came to mind when I saw the tree pic was charlie brown's christmas tree.

The folks at RED are doing everything in their power to bring a sense of "place" to Downtown. While the tree may be weak, at least it is an attempt to do SOMETHING. So many naysayers out there. People complain that nothing is happening Downtown and then when someone like RED takes chances in a big way everyone becomes a critic. Opinions are fine, especially constructive ones, but if you want more things to happen Downtown stop ripping on people who are seriously trying to make a difference. How about we bring Patriots Park back and instead of a tree we can watch the homeless shower in the fountains.

Just a thought...

[Vicelord John]

The folks at RED are doing everything in their power to bring a sense of "place" to Downtown. While the tree may be weak, at least it is an attempt to do SOMETHING. So many naysayers out there. People complain that nothing is happening Downtown and then when someone like RED takes chances in a big way everyone becomes a critic. Opinions are fine, especially constructive ones, but if you want more things to happen Downtown stop ripping on people who are seriously trying to make a difference. How about we bring Patriots Park back and instead of a tree we can watch the homeless shower in the fountains.

Just a thought...

exactly. I was there on Friday and there was so much happening. Ice skating rink was packed to the gills, a concert, people wandering all over within a few blocks, some artists doing live art, it felt like a big city gathering place and I like it. I don't care what anyone says, last night walking not only around cityscape, but all over downtown, I felt like I was in a downtown of some massive city. There were gridlocked streets, packed sidewalks, horns blaring, clubs and music blasting all over. Cityscape did an enormous part of creating what I saw last night. The developers are local guys who care about the community, and I love what they have done.

[HooverDam]

The folks at RED are doing everything in their power to bring a sense of "place" to Downtown. While the tree may be weak, at least it is an attempt to do SOMETHING. So many naysayers out there. People complain that nothing is happening Downtown and then when someone like RED takes chances in a big way everyone becomes a critic. Opinions are fine, especially constructive ones, but if you want more things to happen Downtown stop ripping on people who are seriously trying to make a difference. How about we bring Patriots Park back and instead of a tree we can watch the homeless shower in the fountains.

Just a thought...

This is exactly the wrong attitude to have ,its exactly why we have a lack of of a sense of place and such a subpar downtown. This attitude is a losers attitude, saying "well we don't care how crappy something is, we're just happy to have it". Thats not the way to create an excellent place.

We need to demand design excellence, we have to quit just being happy to get anything, its just not good enough. Its what got us the Arizona Center, dozens of buildings with street killing facades and now the subpar CityScape.

RED hasn't taken any chances, they've designed piss poor junk that most any ASU design student could've easily trumped. They've done the bare minimum to get by and meet the deal they struck with the city and they ought to be criticized for it endlessly so this sort of junk doesn't happen in our Downtown again.

We deserve better and until we start asking for it and demanding it, we won't get it.

[Vicelord John]

This is exactly the wrong attitude to have ,its exactly why we have a lack of of a sense of place and such a subpar downtown. This attitude is a losers attitude, saying "well we don't care how crappy something is, we're just happy to have it". Thats not the way to create an excellent place.

We need to demand design excellence, we have to quit just being happy to get anything, its just not good enough. Its what got us the Arizona Center, dozens of buildings with street killing facades and now the subpar CityScape.

RED hasn't taken any chances, they've designed piss poor junk that most any ASU design student could've easily trumped. They've done the bare minimum to get by and meet the deal they struck with the city and they ought to be criticized for it endlessly so this sort of junk doesn't happen in our Downtown again.

We deserve better and until we start asking for it and demanding it, we won't get it.

Sorry, but where do you live and what have you seen the past few weekends downtown? Just curious. Don't be bitter because we didn't get the grandiose plans that were originally slated, nobody can help the economy crashing, and they did what they could with the money they had. The project isn't even finished yet and I feel it's premature to draw a black and white conclusion on it. I don't even want to say I love it yet because it isn't done, but I like what I see so far!

How would you have maximized the retail space while allowing for a park here? They have quite a bit of ground floor, probably 75% of it facing the street. You are judging this place before 75% of the retail is even open for crying out loud!

[HooverDam]

^You're the champion of argumentative fallacies, the ad hominem nonsense in your post will be ignored for the purposes of this conversation.

If you think CityScape is a well designed project, I just don't know what to tell you. Read any book on the design of public spaces and you'll see CityScape falls well short. Talk to anyone known for designing good spaces, they'll agree, CityScape isn't a success design wise.

Suggested reading on the subject so you can get up to speed on discussions of design:
~ "The Death and Life of Great American Cities" by Jane Jacobs
~ "How to Turn a Place Around" by the Project for Public Spaces
~ "The Social Life of Small Urban Spaces" by William H Whyte
~ "The Geography of Nowhere", "Home From Nowhere", "The City In Mind" by James Howard Kunstler
~ "The City in History" by Lewis Mumford
~ "Cities of Tomorrow" by Peter Geoffrey Hall
~ "Integral Urbanism" by Nan Ellin
~ "Suburban Nation" by Andres Duany, Jeff Speck & Elizabeth Plater-Zyberk
~ "The New Urbanism" by Peter Katz

The Phoenix Public Library carries most of these titles.

If time doesn't permit reading any or all of those titles I'd suggest at least viewing the excellent old short documentary on the subject:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Je6Dko6mm4

or this talk by Kunstler at TED:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ZeXnmDZMQ

Here's a small clip of the Documentary version of "The Social Life of Small Urban Spaces" by William H Whyte, I highly recommend finding a full version somewhere, its excellent. There used to be a full version on YouTube, but it seems to have been taken down:
http://vimeo.com/6821934

To say that the economy crashing had anything to do with the bad design is just ridiculous. Money is no excuse for bad design, financial constraints should in fact help force even more creativity design wise, not less.

[Vicelord John]

wait so you're saying in order to be a good design, it has to follow the formula of books you've read? Sorry, but I judge a good design on how attractive it is (cityscape is 50/50 here for me), how usable it is (they fit a stage, water feature, restaurants, bars, stores, and an ice rink in it), and how accessible it is via foot, public transportation, and private transportation (all of which it is.)

[HX_Guy]

I've asked before and I'll again...

To the critics, how would you have designed it different incorporating the same amount of "park" space and retail. How would you guys have done it?

Cityscape is far from perfect but it has some good elements such as Urban Outfitters and the office tower block overall is good, retail is facing the street on every side. Patriot's Square has a lot of challenges such as the two parking garage entrances that automatically make those sides hard to work with but they could have easily done the Oakville Grocery the same as Urban Outfitters with two entrances and they could have made the NW corner entrance easier to get into the place instead of funneling people to the intersection.

Where they really did miss in my opinion was the finished used, the big wide walls of gray blah. I was at Scottsdale Quarter this past week and they really did a great job in doing a variety of different styles even though it's all one huge building just like Cityscape.