Phoenix CityScape Thread

[Vicelord John]

If teams aren't staying at the Sheraton, Hyatt, or Wyndham now, what makes them think they would up and decide to stay at the Palomar? It's not like this is an upscale property... it falls right in line with the other downtown hotels, just with "hipper" decor.

[renone]

I hadn't seen this posted here yet. Nothing we didn't already know, but good stuff nonethelss.


Popular Old Town Scottsdale breakfast and lunch spot The Breakfast Club will open across from Gold’s Gym Elite, between Tilted Kilt and the under construction Kimpton Palomar Hotel, on Nov. 14. In addition to the gargantuan waffles, pancakes, and omelets, The Breakfast Club will also serve up specialty coffee drinks from an adjoining barrista bar.

“Fast casual” Italian restaurant The Strand will sling sandwiches, pasta, salads, and Italian fry bread from the corner of Jefferson and 1st Street starting in mid-November. The concept comes from Jimmy Carlin and Maven Hospitality Group, the same folks responsible for Blue Wasabi and The Cajun House. The Strand will be open for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and will also feature beer, wine, plus Bellinis, a popular Venice-born frozen drink that combines sparkling wine and peach puree.

And on Dec. 6, Chipotle will open one of five new Valley locations directly across from Jimmy John’s and Five Guys on the corner of Washington and 1st Avenue.

http://www.downtownphoenix.com/blog/2011/11/3-new-restaurants-opening-at-cityscape/

[renone]

If teams aren't staying at the Sheraton, Hyatt, or Wyndham now, what makes them think they would up and decide to stay at the Palomar? It's not like this is an upscale property... it falls right in line with the other downtown hotels, just with "hipper" decor.

I see what you're saying, but I think the Palomar might just be different enough to attract some interest. First of all, that Ritz is the worst Ritz I have ever seen. The rooms are a little bigger/nicer than a Sheraton, but it's not like we are talking about a super high-end Ritz to compete with. Second, the Wyndham is a dump and the Hyatt isn't a whole lot better. It doesn't surprise me that they have not had any traction with the teams. I think the Sheraton is a step up, but I'm really hoping that the Palomar will be like its sister hotel Firesky in Scottsdale, which may be just hip enough to entice some sports teams to stay there.

That all being said, the Ritz has the name and it may be difficult to overcome that.

[Vicelord John]

I see what you're saying, but I think the Palomar might just be different enough to attract some interest. First of all, that Ritz is the worst Ritz I have ever seen. The rooms are a little bigger/nicer than a Sheraton, but it's not like we are talking about a super high-end Ritz to compete with. Second, the Wyndham is a dump and the Hyatt isn't a whole lot better. It doesn't surprise me that they have not had any traction with the teams. I think the Sheraton is a step up, but I'm really hoping that the Palomar will be like its sister hotel Firesky in Scottsdale, which may be just hip enough to entice some sports teams to stay there.

That all being said, the Ritz has the name and it may be difficult to overcome that.

1. I agree it's the worst Ritz Carlton ever.
2. The Wyndham is a dump? wtf are you basing this off of the exterior of the building? The rooms are brand new and the lobby was very nicely remodeled about 5 years ago. :sly:
3. Firesky? Now there's a dump. :sly:

Wyndham room:
http://www.wyndham.com/cms_content/hotels/PHXHT/images/phxht_A_king.jpg

Firesky room:
http://www.fireskyresort.com/images/photos/slideshow/frsk-127.jpg

I don't think the firesky room looks any nicer, it costs much more, and has some of the worst service ever. But, whatever.

BTW, on a similar note, I stayed at the old Orange Tree Resort last night. Wow! if anyone wants to get away on a budget, it's a great place. 740sq. ft room with a living room, kitchenette, two person whirlpool tub, huge bathroom, walk in shower, temperpedic mattress, all very recently remodeled... $100 including tax!

[Leo the Dog]

If Phoenix's version is anything like San Diego's, then I think it will be in a league of it's own from the other DT hotels and be able to attract NBA and MLB teams at the very least.

http://www.hotelpalomar-sandiego.com

[Vicelord John]

If Phoenix's version is anything like San Diego's, [/URL]

it won't be.

Remember, hotels are franchises, and the owner of the hotel/their decorator, calls the shots on layout, design, and decoration, not the name of the brand on the building. Sure, many companies have stipulations about what a space may look like if they are going to take the management contract, but those are typically vague. Hell, you will see a lot of properties change management companies and not change a thing about the building. Arizona Biltmore has had 4 management companies I can remember, and you'd never guess it.

[Leo the Dog]

it won't be.

Remember, hotels are franchises, and the owner of the hotel/their decorator, calls the shots on layout, design, and decoration, not the name of the brand on the building. Sure, many companies have stipulations about what a space may look like if they are going to take the management contract, but those are typically vague. Hell, you will see a lot of properties change management companies and not change a thing about the building. Arizona Biltmore has had 4 management companies I can remember, and you'd never guess it.

Yes, all true. Some companies' brands have strict brand standards that must be obeyed or they risk losing their flag.

I'm not too familiar with Kimpton or how closely (or freely) they allow their franchises to operate. It seems though, that they are proud of the cities where Palomar operates, therefore, I'd suspect they have high brand standards.

This all just speculation on my part though.

[dtnphx]

Starbucks, Chipotle, holiday ice rink set for CityScape
Lynn Ducey, Phoenix Business Journal

New signs are going up as new tenants get ready to move into the CityScape development in downtown Phoenix.

The Verizon store and its red neon lights have opened, and there’s a big sign is touting the arrival of a Starbucks. Those in the know say it’s set to open in January. A Chipotle, which is almost next door and close to both Jimmy John’s and Five Guys, is set to open in December.

The Designer District store has closed, but a sign is announcing that there’s a new men’s concept set to open there soon. CityScape officials said they didn’t have any additional information about the new tenant.

In the meantime, CityScape’s annual holiday Ice Rink is set to open on Nov. 26 along with a tree-lighting celebration. Please get a bigger effin' tree, for Chrissakes!
Both The Strand and The Breakfast Club are also set to open in November. The Strand is a fast casual Italian restaurant serving sandwiches, pasta, salads and an Italian fry bread called “cizzellini.” It’s set to open this month next to The Arrogant Butcher. It will be open seven days a week offering breakfast, lunch and dinner along with beer, wine and cocktails including frozen Bellinis. The Breakfast Club will offer downtowners a new spot for the first two meals of the day.

With Thanksgiving fast-approaching, a number of restaurants, resorts and properties are hosting tree lightings, special buffets, dinners and events.

On Nov. 17, the Fairmont Scottsdale Princess is hosting a tree lighting event that also includes musical performances and a four-story musical tree.

From Nov. 18 through the holidays, the Princess will host evening light and music shows that synchronize the tree’s holiday lights with music. Carolers will also be adding to the atmosphere, walking around the resort on Friday and Saturday nights beginning Nov. 25.

[nickw252]

http://i40.tinypic.com/1agqp.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/9jgok8.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/15xkg91.jpg

[combusean]

I'm expecting something like Avondale Senior Hospital to show up on this thing's sign. Such a horridly bland, institutional design.

[HX_Guy]

I don't think it's so bad, and it breaks up all the beige nicely, especially in this shot...

http://i44.tinypic.com/9jgok8.jpg

[Vicelord John]

Hx don't kid yourself it's awful.

[Leo the Dog]

I don't think it's so bad, and it breaks up all the beige nicely, especially in this shot...

I like the color theme for sure. It appears to blend in with the bright blue AZ skies and somewhat softens the DT landscape.

[gymratmanaz]

Starting to like it, and i am surprised. Also....It aint done yet. Give it time.....

[HX_Guy]

More whoa...

Two-story urban Target store could land in downtown Phoenix
Phoenix Business Journal by Staff report
Date: Friday, November 18, 2011, 4:00am MST

A two-story Target could be headed for downtown Phoenix. The catch is getting downtown Phoenix on Target’s list for new urban stores.
City economic developers as well as the owners and representatives of the Collier Center and CityScape are talking to Target Corp. about locating one of its new urban concept stores between those two sites on Washington Street.
The store could be part of a new development at the Barron Collier Co.-owned parking lot between CityScape and its Collier Center office complex, which includes the Bank of America Tower.
Scottsdale-based RED Development — which owns CityScape and the Town ...

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/print-edition/2011/11/18/two-story-urban-target-store-could.html

[Vicelord John]

More whoa...

what is woah about it? RED is trying to convince Target to open up a store here, that has absolutely no meaning whatsoever regarding it actually happening, and furthermore, with that entire block open, $10 says if they do build it, they do it as if they have the whole block to waste.

I think someone pissed in my Cheerios today, because I'm very negative, but I just don't believe the shit I'm reading.

[nickw252]

I'm there. I loved the urban Targets when I lived in Chicago, especially the escalators that took your carts.

[Leo the Dog]

If built, this would go on the empty block between CS and Collier Center?

This could be a great addition. Of course, it all depends on the design of the building.

[gymratmanaz]

If this happens, Vicelord and I think someone else owes me a beer. I said that this block would get built on within 5 years and more like 2....... Still hoping it happens. I am thirsty!!! :)

[combusean]

^ The structure would have to be already in permitting for them to open in 2 years, eg, plans substantially finalized. Given that they haven't even finished programming it yet they're *way* far off.

I think earlier articles that pointed to activity on this block being wrapped up in 2015 are the best chance it possibly has.

[gymratmanaz]

I didn't say open, just started construction. Maybe we'll get a permit posted for Christmas. let's all ask Santa!!!

[HX_Guy]

The full article...

Two-story urban Target store could land in downtown Phoenix
Premium content from Phoenix Business Journal by Staff report
Date: Friday, November 18, 2011, 4:00am MST

A two-story Target could be headed for downtown Phoenix. The catch is getting downtown Phoenix on Target’s list for new urban stores.
City economic developers as well as the owners and representatives of the Collier Center and CityScape are talking to Target Corp. about locating one of its new urban concept stores between those two sites on Washington Street.
The store could be part of a new development at the Barron Collier Co.-owned parking lot between CityScape and its Collier Center office complex, which includes the Bank of America Tower.
Scottsdale-based RED Development — which owns CityScape and the Town & Country shopping center on Camelback Road — also has been courting the Minneapolis-based retailer and its new urban-concept store.
Target announced Nov. 14 it was opening a 98,000-square-foot “CityTarget” in the Westwood section of Los Angeles. By comparison, Target’s traditional big-box suburban stores can be as large as 180,000 square feet.
Target also plans to open small-format stores in Chicago’s State Street area, San Francisco’s Metreon retail complex and Seattle next July, said spokesman Molly Snyder.
Phoenix real estate developers and economic developers would like to get in on that action. They’ve tried to woo Target and other retailers to downtown Phoenix before.
They hope the growing number of Arizona State University students living downtown, more hotel rooms, and the success of the CVS/Pharmacy, boutiques and restaurants at CityScape in a tough economic environment will pique the interest of Target and other major retailers.
“We’d love to see an urban Target,” said Dave Roderique, CEO of the Downtown Phoenix Partnership.
He said about 16,000 people live downtown, including 1,000 ASU students at the Taylor Place dorm.
MUM ON PLANS

Snyder said Target does not have anything on the drawing board right now for a downtown Phoenix store.
“Phoenix continues to be a great market for Target, and we are always open to exploring new sites there. However, we don’t have anything to share at this time,” Snyder said.
Barron Collier spokesman Jay Thorne said the parking lot (dubbed Block 23) could be developed into a hotel or a Class A office building. Either concept also could include retail as well as a high-rise commercial building.
“The Barron Collier Co. is in very preliminary discussions regarding the development of Block 23. The focus, at present, is Class A office,” said Thorne. “Retail would definitely be a component.”
Thorne said a hotel also could be located on the existing Collier Center development adjacent to the Bank of America Building at Second and Washington streets.
RED and CityScape officials declined to comment. But sources familiar with the situation say they’ve talked to Target and other retailers about stores in downtown and central Phoenix.
Jonathan Brohard, a real estate attorney with the Phoenix law office of Polsinelli Shughart LLP, said retailers such as Target tend to follow population growth and consumers. He said ASU’s growth downtown and the Phoenix School of Law moving its campus from Indian School Road and Central Avenue into the old Phelps Dodge headquarters at Central Avenue and Washington make downtown more attractive to retail tenants.
“Target is going to be driven by residents,” said Brohard, who specializes in retail and hotel transactions.
HITS AND MISSES

The city of Phoenix and real estate interests have tried for years to bring more retail and restaurants to downtown Phoenix, with mixed results.
CityScape’s retail has performed well, especially the CVS store and restaurants such as the Arrogant Butcher, the Tilted Kilt and Vitamin T, which is expanding.
But there also have been plenty of setbacks. Several downtown restaurants have closed during the latest economic slowdown; developer Dale Jensen’s proposed Jackson Street Entertainment District near Chase Field and US Airways Center never got off the ground; and the Arizona Center at Fifth and Van Buren streets has seen mixed success over the years. Also, promised retail and nightlife benefits from public financing of the arena and stadium never came to fruition in areas south of Jefferson Street.
Phoenix Deputy City Manager Dave Krietor remains optimistic about downtown retail, especially when the overall economy recovers.
“I would say there was interest from larger retail tenants when CityScape was in the planning stage. Block 23/Colliers could certainly accommodate a large retailer that would complement CityScape when the timing is right,” he said.
The Block 23/Collier hotel could be a Marriott International or Hilton brand, such as an Embassy Suites.
A new hotel at the parking lot site or across from the BofA building would join an increasingly competitive downtown hotel marketplace.
The 240-room Westin Phoenix Downtown hotel opened in the Freeport-McMoRan building in March. The 250-room Kimpton Palomar Hotel is slated to open at CityScape in April. The 900-room Sheraton Phoenix Downtown , owned by the city, opened in 2008 at Van Buren and Third streets.
That inventory could be a challenge for a new Collier hotel, Brohard said.
Reporters Mike Sunnucks, Lynn Ducey and Jan Buchholz contributed to this story.

[HooverDam]

Well its not really 'news' yet, but at least they're thinking in the right direction with the City Target, CityScape really needs an "anchor" store if the retail is to survive long term. I just hope they buck their track record of horrible design at both CityScape & Colliers and do it right.

[Vicelord John]

Given that they haven't even finished programming it yet they're *way* far off.



Nor have they even got a comittment from Target, from the sounds of the article they are begging.

[phxSUNSfan]

UGH, if I were Stanton or a member of the City Council I would introduce an "urban-first ordinance" for downtown aimed at Target and Collier or whomever is the developer of this potential heart-breaker. First, I would ensure that if the Target is to be placed on the vacant lot, that it must be situated with at least one "grand entrance" in a way that would do a Macy's in New York proud or at least not completely embarrassed to share a neighborhood. Second, I would stipulate that the height of the tower that the Target would go in be the maximum height allowable by the ordinance and approved by the FAA. This would be to safe guard the urban fabric/integrity with real density (employment or residential) that even the best big box design could easily ruin. This site is a ruin of a former J.C. Penny's (Pennies?) -don't shop there so really not sure- which means it wouldn't be hard for the site to be completely ruined further by a glorified, two-story suburban Target more suited for Chandler than even downtown Midland, TX.

I would also stipulate that the Chicago developer interested in "office space" on Van Buren deliver on the max height and design the building to match the important and historical character of the nearest older and taller buildings; hello Security Building, Orpheum Lofts, Westward Ho, etc...of course modern materials would not be disallowed, but interest us Phoenician with some character that cannot be mistaken for any building post-1980's Seattle (like the CityScape towers).

Oh, and I recently took that trip to Target in Christown from Roosevelt and it took me 57 minutes from when I arrived at the platform to arriving back at the starting platform. I was with two kids btw, shopping for Halloween junk as well as toiletries. Granted, shopping is one of those gay qualities I did not inherit and I even manage to cut off my straight guy friends on their efficiency runs to these type of stores...

[phxSUNSfan]

AND, if the Target is to be placed in the fledgling Collier Center (a development nearly 15 years in the NOT-making itself) then I would still require a tower over the "urban" Target. Though, I do find the BofA Tower more interesting than the CityScape office tower. I like the color of the glass more on the CityScape tower...still yet, the reds and blues of BofA would be easily integrated with Target's red logo. And I just expended my "gay-design-gene quota" for this month...especially since I just realized that in downtown, mixing some colors would be more visually appealing and eye-catching... :tup:

[HooverDam]

OK I just mocked this up, its very rough, but it gives you an idea of what I'd hope to see on the RED/Colliers lot:

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/9919/block32.jpg
(note: anything in a dashed line is meant to be read as on an upper level/not ground floor)

1. Don't force everyone into some inward facing faux Desert Ridge like mall like was REDs original plan (see Page 1 of this thread). Keep the retail and entries facing OUTWARD and use service alley's, like worked in Cities for hundreds of years.

2. Don't have the CityTarget face Washington. There's a nice little row of nightlife developing on the North side of Washington, RED should capitalize on that and try to lure more bars, clubs, etc. to really make that a nice strip.

3. Residential of some kind is key. Even if its apartments now that are latter flipped to condos, we have to have more people living Downtown to make this stuff work.

4. Make sure to include a hotel on the parcel as was the original plan (it was to be a "Twelve Hotel").

5. The tower that fronts Jefferson should follow the unique curve of the street. We have so few curvy blocks we need to make sure our buildings embrace the one we do have, and not just have another boxy building that doesn't address its surroundings.

6. Give Target a corner entry but also try to get them to have another entrance. Targets always contain a Starbucks & little food court, it would be nice if it had an entry (and patio seating) to give it a more urban feel. This has been done elsewhere with box stores, it can be done here, its not impossible or even difficult.

7. Hide most of the bulk of the Target back within the block and put smaller scale retail and dining with lots of entrances facing the streets.

8. If possible keep the Hotel & Residential buildings separate. This gives more visual interest to the skyline and breaks things up a bit. It also gives the designers the opportunity to have more buildings of different heights with varying rooflines. 275' for the hotel, 300-325' for the residential tower with the 350' Alliance Bank tower to the West would give a nice 'stair step' effect.

Anyway, its just a rough general idea....but at least this way once they build whatever ,its awful, I complain and people say "Oh could YOU do better?" the answer is yes, yes I could and so could most anyone.

[phxSUNSfan]

HooverDam, the thing I like most about your rendering is that the automobile is ushered away from the sidewalk in a manner that causes little interference with possible heavy pedestrian traffic. Those gaping holes for the garage entrances in CityScape (well really, every downtown tower) could be negated and made more incognito via your design. Only negative is the low building heights in your rough draft. Think higher man. Remember, a nice tall multi-story atrium could be used in the towers (especially for the Target); therefore, you wouldn't be building apartments of hotel rooms from the second floor up, but higher.

[HooverDam]

Only negative is the low building heights in your rough draft. Think higher man. Remember, a nice tall multi-story atrium could be used in the towers (especially for the Target); therefore, you wouldn't be building apartments of hotel rooms from the second floor up, but higher.

I didn't really specify height in the image. I'm imagining the actually office, hotel rooms and residential units would start 60'+ off the ground. Remember the CityTarget is at least 2 "stories" tall but generally has heigh ceilings, so its pretty high.

The residential units would ideally be away from the noise of the ground floor night club type uses, so I imagine there could be an open floor or two with the residential tower up on stilts above the podium like bottom floors.

Also to keep in mind, there is already a parking garage under that lot. So where I show the garage entry on the right side, that won't change. Its not the biggest garage in the world though, so the Residential & Hotel towers I show would likely need some garage space done in a podium, a la One Central Park East.

[DowntownDweller]

They were rolling out the cooling grids for the skating rink this morning. I see that chipotle is building out nicely too.

[gymratmanaz]

Both the Chipotle and the Breakfast Club are looking great.

Went to Tilted Kilt on Sunday for football. Pretty darn busy!!!

[gymratmanaz]

Stopped by and talked to a few construction guys....

*Next to Vitamin T and its expansion will go a Po Boys, one of those sandwich shops. I've been to one in Chicago. it was great!

*Also confirmed again is the dance club going next to Lucky Strike. LS bought the rest of the upper level to expand a club to LS.

*Breakfast Club will open on Monday.

*Ice rink has the surrounding boards up now. It is definitely bigger than last year.

*Chipotle looks ready to go!

*Some new facade poster signage for Copper Blues and Stand Up Live

*The Strand owners took all the red tables with all the red poles sticking up and cut them down. They found they didn't fit, so that is why all the tables are down and it looks like they are going backwards instead of progressing. They also found the things didn't fit right in the restaurant space.

*The LED sign across at the Suns looks awesome and i think they added colored down-lights on the support pillars.

*....and not really at Cityscape, but the new LED sign attached to Chase Field on the west side is getting close to being done. Damn that thing is HUGE!!!!!

[renone]

This was posted to Cityscape's facebook page described as a "big tree". I didn't see the one from last year. How does this compare?

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6050/6384660929_dc10967927_b.jpg

[PHX31]

I thought the tree and the ice rink were supposed to be bigger this year... they both look the same to me. Although, I don't really care one way or the other.

[HX_Guy]

Yea looks quite a bit better. Last year they had a tree that you might find in someone's house.

[HX_Guy]

I thought the tree and the ice rink were supposed to be bigger this year... they both look the same to me. Although, I don't really care one way or the other.

They both are bigger. Last year the ice rink stopped about 3/4 of the way as seen in this picture. This year it goes all the way back to those concrete sitting blocks.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5128/5211950909_0b91db67d3_z.jpg

[gymratmanaz]

Both are definitely bigger!!! The rink looks really cool. I wonder where they will rent the ice skates from. I assume the Starbucks will be under construction. Someone said the Starbucks will really only take about 2 weeks to build.

Looking forward to seeing how it looks when all lit up. There seems to be more lighting in the trees too.

[Tito714]

Here is a picture of last years tree
Could be better but definitely better than last years
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=181571395190721&set=a.181571318524062.51017.118100984871096&type=3&theater

[dtnphx]

Last year's tree was Charlie Brown's tree's less attractive, smaller cousin.

[gymratmanaz]

Checked the tree out. It is actually pretty nice, and it isn't even lit up yet. The look of the whole courtyard is really attractive with the rink, the tree, tree lights, the activity at Lucky Strike and Copper Blues and the other establishments. I think you get the Starbucks open with people there to drink and hang...... I'ld hang out and people watch and enjoy the season and the weather. FUN!!!

[vertex]

Went by there today. The rink is only slightly bigger. The tree is the same height, only fuller.

[gymratmanaz]

I hope you weren't wanting a rink big enough for Smurfs on Ice or something like that. LOL :)

[gymratmanaz]

1) I asked the guy in charge of the rink this morning.... the rink is almost double in size. he said it is almost twice as long and it is also a little wider.

2) They are installing a number of new grey, metal benches all around the main courtyard. they look really nice.

3) They will be adding even more lights and a sound system around the rink.

4) They are adding tree lights to all the trees at Cityscape, even on the road side. i don't remember them being lit last year, just the ones in the courtyard.

5) I ASKED ONE OF THE LIGHT INSTALLERS.... HE SAID THEY HAVE BID OUT 4 HUGE LED SCREENS FOR CITYSCAPE. They should come in in a couple of months he says. He thinks they are about 40 feet by 10 feet, but he wasn't sure of the dimensions other than they are BIG. He also said one goes near CVS and the other near Tilted Kilt. he didn't know where the other two go. - I thought I had seen an LED in the original sketches on the pedestrian bridge.

[HX_Guy]

The ice skating rink is definitely bigger this year, last year it stopped about there the "n" in "nrg" is from what I remember.

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/375611_328801547134371_118100984871096_1535378_848746258_n.jpg

Some other photos from their Facebook page...the tree does look nicer than last year. Also, is the Copper Blues signage new or has it always looks like that?

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/390994_10150360294442093_157823517092_8508567_1014874179_n.jpg

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/385507_10150360307877093_157823517092_8508605_1597809973_n.jpg

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/392583_10150360308027093_157823517092_8508607_131951846_n.jpg

[gymratmanaz]

Mentioned it a few posts back, but yes, Copper Blues signage is new. I like!!!

I was just down tonight. Looks cool. They were ushering a few Occupy Phoenix people from Cityscape. They seem to want to move in there too now. Is it wrong I support them in Chavez Park, but not in Cityscape???

[dtnphx]

Nice. Big improvement over last year.

[gymratmanaz]

I just wish the big blue generator wasn't right in the middle. I liked it off to the side like last year, though i am sure because it is bigger, there wasn't enough room. The rink is awesome though!!!!!

[Classical in Phoenix]

If you're 5 Guys, how pissed off are you going to be that Cityscape is allowing Wendy's to give away free burgers all afternoon?

[DowntownDweller]

If you're 5 Guys, how pissed off are you going to be that Cityscape is allowing Wendy's to give away free burgers all afternoon?

There's no "FREE" about it. I was one of the first in line, and it was a 10-15min wait. The line was over an hour long around lunch time. Its now back to 15mins. I think I got food poisoning from it.

[Classical in Phoenix]

There's no "FREE" about it. I was one of the first in line, and it was a 10-15min wait. The line was over an hour long around lunch time. Its now back to 15mins. I think I got food poisoning from it.

Well, that sucks. Hope you feel better.

[HX_Guy]

Wow the Copper Blues signage is pretty damn colorful.

http://s1-02.twitpicproxy.com/photos/large/460676475.jpg

[gymratmanaz]

Why Wendy's downtown? Is there one there to promote?

[MegaBass]

Why Wendy's downtown? Is there one there to promote?

For some cross country food truck tour promoting their new burger.

[gymratmanaz]

1) Ate at Breakfast Club - food and service was outstanding!!!!!!!

2) What is the plywood screen in front of the upcoming Starbucks for?

3) Chipotle opens tomorrow!

4) The Strand lighting is cool!!!

[DowntownDweller]

1) Ate at Breakfast Club - food and service was outstanding!!!!!!!


I tried it as well. Food was mediocre, but at a premium price.

[gymratmanaz]

Sorry to hear. My parents even went on the weekend after a light rail trip. They raved about the French Dip, and they are really picky. I went on my birthday for breakfast, and the omelet was very good with a ton of vegetables. The potatoes rocked too.

[dtnphx]

The Strand opens in CityScape

http://www.azcentral.com/thingstodo/dining/articles/2011/12/12/20111212strand-opens-cityscape.html

[DowntownDweller]

Sorry to hear. My parents even went on the weekend after a light rail trip. They raved about the French Dip, and they are really picky. I went on my birthday for breakfast, and the omelet was very good with a ton of vegetables. The potatoes rocked too.

Yeah, Ihop serves a better omlette than Breakfast club, at like $4 less. I've had hit and miss with highly recommended places. Take bario cafe for example, it SUCKS. I really want a good asian place to open DT. The Sing Hi CHop Suey place is merely OK at best. Both the Thai places in the Orpheum are BLAND, and totally meh.

[DowntownDweller]

The Strand opens in CityScape

http://www.azcentral.com/thingstodo/dining/articles/2011/12/12/20111212strand-opens-cityscape.html

About time. They've been messing with the seating for months now. Their menu a coworker brought up looks pretty good.

Vitamin T's Sonoran dog is great, but overpriced. Arrogant butcher has decent oysters and good mixed drinks. Been working my way around the building checking out everything it has to offer. Even tried the new scrubway. THe two dollar 6" sub was appropriately priced.

[HX_Guy]

Well this seem like a ray of hope...

It looks like RED has submitted to extend the permit for the tower crane that is on site until 12/31/2012. The previous permit expired 12/31/2011.

Study (ASN): 2011-AWP-8491-OE
Prior Study: 2010-AWP-6727-OE
Status: Work In Progress

Received Date: 10/15/2010
Entered Date: 12/20/2011
Map: View Map
Construction Info Structure Summary
Notice Of: CONSTR
Duration: TEMP (Months: 12 Days: 0)
Work Schedule: 01/01/2012 to 12/31/2012

Structure Type: Crane
Structure Name: - Peiner SK 415


That has to be good news...if they weren't going to build on top of the Kimpton hotel, why keep the crane around for another year, right? :)

[gymratmanaz]

Very encouraging! Now we need to see the extension for jumping up.

[dtnphx]

That is great news and could the possibility be that the open lot to the east (part of the original Cityscape plan) is what the crane is for? Possibly? Either way, a win!

[HX_Guy]

No, the FAA permit is definitely for the crane already in place, not for a new lot/location.

Also, there is no need for an crane extension at this point, there is plenty of room between the elevator core and the crane arm to continue the building. They would need to raise the crane in the future, but not now.

http://nitnelav.com/DTJan72012/1.jpg

[PHX31]

/\ Great pic HX Guy. Good lighting and I like the old (Courthouse, Luhrs) with the new. Now, if only the hotel was built on the Collier' Center property years ago, the gap down Jefferson would be blocked and look great.

Oh yeah, and sounds good about the crane.

[HX_Guy]

Thanks. Could you tell that the photo is actually photoshopped? :)

This is the original, I had to take out the stop light but also lost some windows in the top floor of Luhrs. :D

http://nitnelav.com/csnonmod.jpg

[gymratmanaz]

HX....can you shop me into the pic standing on the crane arm? :)

[Vicelord John]

I just got a mailer that Gold's is running a 20/month special on month to month. Great deal, and obviously they are being very aggressive trying to get new members, hopefully not because they are struggling.

Either way, I may be joining. Got my weight down from 215 to 165 over the past year and have pretty much leveled off, but now I'd like to tone up and it's hard to do without weights or at least resistence machines.

PS, HX that picture makes it look like the area above CVS is screaming for an additional tower. I know it will never happen, and the site isn't able to take it, but it sure would frame off that intersection nicely.

[HX_Guy]

Damn, that is a good deal at Gold's! I'm paying like $34/month at Mountainside Fitness, I'd love to go to the downtown Gold's but the commute wouldn't make much sense.

Nice job on the weight loss! I'm down to 175lbs myself from 195lbs earlier this year. 175lbs is my lowest since I was probably like 15 years old, I weighed around 235lbs about 10 years ago.
I just started a new strength program called Starting Strength...it's very basic but it's supposed to be really good. There is a book you can buy and also a DVD that gives you instructions on the exercises (squats, press, deadlift, bench press & power clean). Let me know if you want more info. :)

[gymratmanaz]

Nice gentlemen, NICE!!!!

[Vicelord John]

Damn, that is a good deal at Gold's! I'm paying like $34/month at Mountainside Fitness, I'd love to go to the downtown Gold's but the commute wouldn't make much sense.

Nice job on the weight loss! I'm down to 175lbs myself from 195lbs earlier this year. 175lbs is my lowest since I was probably like 15 years old, I weighed around 235lbs about 10 years ago.
I just started a new strength program called Starting Strength...it's very basic but it's supposed to be really good. There is a book you can buy and also a DVD that gives you instructions on the exercises (squats, press, deadlift, bench press & power clean). Let me know if you want more info. :)

nah, I have a simple workout plan, it's called racing my bike! lol

Seriously though, I don't know the explination for this, but I find that if I have a structure or regimen to follow, I don't want to do it. Who knows why. That's part of the reason I love bikes, if I'm bored I can go for a ride lol. How tall are you HX?

[nickw252]

Man I'd love to go to Gold's Gym but unfortunately I only have time for my current workout plan which involves me drinking less beer and taking the stairs at work to my office on the 8th floor.

[HooverDam]

PS, HX that picture makes it look like the area above CVS is screaming for an additional tower. I know it will never happen, and the site isn't able to take it, but it sure would frame off that intersection nicely.

Well it could still have 4 or so stories of apartments/condo's above it, right? That was the original plan, unless they value constructed the lower section and now it can't support it.

[HX_Guy]

nah, I have a simple workout plan, it's called racing my bike! lol

Seriously though, I don't know the explination for this, but I find that if I have a structure or regimen to follow, I don't want to do it. Who knows why. That's part of the reason I love bikes, if I'm bored I can go for a ride lol. How tall are you HX?

Hah...I'm the opposite, I love structured work outs, I need to know exactly how many sets and reps I need to do of each thing. :D

I'm 6'1".

[Vicelord John]

Hah...I'm the opposite, I love structured work outs, I need to know exactly how many sets and reps I need to do of each thing. :D

I'm 6'1".

so percentage wise you've probably done about the same weight loss as I have, at 5'10"

good stuff, man!!

structure makes it feel like I'm going to work. I want to do it for fun.

[azcats]

I posted this last August regarding the building activity on top of the new hotel...you may want to read it again..it might help answer your questions:


#6718 Posted: Aug 26, 2011, 11:55 AM
azcats
Registered User Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 5

ok...first...I don't post here often...however, I do read and look at this sight. I think your pictures you guys take...are great...apprecaite you continuing with the pics.

No one seems to know if RED is going to continue building on top of the Palomar (Kimpton) Hotel. So, I called RED - and got ahold of a Keith Earnest. He indicated that he is the person that knows what is going on. He said that the hotel should be open by next April. As far as the continuation on top of the hotel: He said that there have been changes in their plans...however, they have settled on building multi-family (apartments) on top of the Palomar Hotel. Keith said that the design has changed since the original design...and that the building will top out at only about 23 floors - instead of the original 34 floors. Keith also said that there will be some lag time - like 3 months - when they start up on building the apartments...I lost him here a little - however, I think he said that the construction for the aprtments would begin later this year(?) I also lost him a little on the completion date...however, I believe he said the apartments would be ready by 2013. Whether this happens or not...that is what he said. if you want to call and talk to him - call Keith Earnest in RED's (Scottsdale?) office. His number has a 480 area code - so, I am figuring it is located in Scottsdale.

[HX_Guy]

That seems to fit with what is happening...

The hotel looks to probably be ready to open in April, like he said, and then he mentioned the apartments would open in 2012, and the crane permit is through the end of 2012...so that does add up. 23 stories wouldn't be too bad either. Let's hope it happens.

[gymratmanaz]

Sure would be cool to live there!

[nickw252]

That seems to fit with what is happening...

The hotel looks to probably be ready to open in April, like he said, and then he mentioned the apartments would open in 2012, and the crane permit is through the end of 2012...so that does add up. 23 stories wouldn't be too bad either. Let's hope it happens.

Would they just add a few extensions to that crane to make it taller? The building can't get much taller with the existing crane height.

I'd like to see a press release from RED and a rendering of what the building is supposed to look life with the apartments.

[combusean]

I just got a mailer that Gold's is running a 20/month special on month to month. Great deal, and obviously they are being very aggressive trying to get new members, hopefully not because they are struggling.

Either way, I may be joining. Got my weight down from 215 to 165 over the past year and have pretty much leveled off, but now I'd like to tone up and it's hard to do without weights or at least resistence machines.

PS, HX that picture makes it look like the area above CVS is screaming for an additional tower. I know it will never happen, and the site isn't able to take it, but it sure would frame off that intersection nicely.

According to the structural engineer of record, the PSP garage would have supported a 20 story tower upon its stabilization. We can blame the Renaissance Square owners who wouldn't budge on the block's CC&Rs which limited a 30' height. It's why we didn't see the planned apartments on that site as well.

Congratulations on the weight loss. I was quite dilligent about working out and I gained 20 lbs .. but I fear my endless working is spelling my atrophy. How the hell am I supposed to have energy to work out when I get home from an 10+ hour day?

[Vicelord John]

Dunno man... You just have to want it. I find the energy but I can't explain how.

[HX_Guy]

The hotel doesn't look too bad...could it have been better? Sure, but it's not a bad addition to downtown. Funny as I was walking around, I saw Phil Gordon also walking around heading from Cityscape to the Luhrs area...all by himself. :)

http://nitnelav.com/DTJAN262012/11.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/DTJAN262012/9.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/DTJAN262012/5.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/DTJAN262012/12.jpg

They also finished Chloe's Corner...why was I under the impression that it was going to remain a sort of grocery/cafe mix? The grocery part is essentially gone except for some chips, drinks and sandwiches. The whole place is basically a coffee and sandwich place now.

http://nitnelav.com/DTJAN262012/10.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/DTJAN262012/6.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/DTJAN262012/7.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/DTJAN262012/8.jpg

[hrivas]

haha.
from cityscape's facebook page:

Forget your normal routine and join the Downtown Phoenix Ambassadors for a "pop-up park" at CityScape from 11-1 today. Eat lunch outside and enjoy a live DJ, games, books and more!

i thought the plaza in cityscape was a park already....

[KevininPhx]

This building is a fantastic addition downtown. It's sleek and modern and beautiful, especially up close. Love it.

[Vicelord John]

This building is a fantastic addition downtown. It's sleek and modern and beautiful, especially up close. Love it.

I want what this guy is smoking :slob:

Dude it looks like a modern take on eastern bloc

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e8/Soviet-Era_Apartment_Block,_Georgia.jpg/220px-Soviet-Era_Apartment_Block,_Georgia.jpg

[floc34]

hahaha it's bad but it's not as bad as that green monster

[Phxguy]

More news about apartments which I guess are happening. :tup:
The developer briefly talks about it at 40 seconds.
http://youtu.be/XCoVw_z2_dg

[dtnphx]

More news about apartments which I guess are happening. :tup:
The developer briefly talks about it at 40 seconds.
http://youtu.be/XCoVw_z2_dg

That is great news! I wish they talked about a date. "Eventually" will have to be enough for now. So, 240 apartments. What would be the amount of floors needed for that?

[combusean]

^ There is no way to estimate, really.... but when you think about it, 44 monroe has 200 or so units in 26? actual residential floors.

The theoretical cityscape apartment addition's footprint is somewhat larger, but starts higher, and has 20% more units ...

I think if it does happen and that number is real it will be the new tallest for Phoenix. Rough estimates aside, 540' is what they've been saying all along for the total tower...if they are to be believed yadda yadda yadda.

[HooverDam]

^As much as we've all craved for a new tallest for forever, in a weird way I'd rather not have this particular group developing it. As hideous as the design on the hotel and the plaza is, I can't imagine their apartment/condo tower being anything but an embarrassment. Chase is already pretty freaking awful for the tallest building in the State, it would stink to have our top 2 be really bad.

But who knows...maybe they'd hire Eddie Jones or someone like that for the tower, but I doubt it.

[plinko]

^ There is no way to estimate, really.... but when you think about it, 44 monroe has 200 or so units in 26? actual residential floors.

The theoretical cityscape apartment addition's footprint is somewhat larger, but starts higher, and has 20% more units ...

I think if it does happen and that number is real it will be the new tallest for Phoenix. Rough estimates aside, 540' is what they've been saying all along for the total tower...if they are to be believed yadda yadda yadda.

I really doubt that it would be the tallest.

With a 100ft x 200ft footprint , you could possibly get a maximum of 20 units per floor (assuming 16 800-900sf units and 4 1000sf units). That's only 12 more floors. That's the low end.

Or 10 1200sf units with 4 1000sf end units = 14 per floor. That's still only 17-18 more floors.

Or 8 1600sf units with 4 1000sf end units = 12 per floor. That's 20 floors.

Or 6 2100sf units with 2 2000sf end units = 8 per floor. That's 30 floors.

Lets assume this is some uber luxury apartment tower (8 per floor) and that the existing hotel stump is maybe 140ft tall, that means the maximum height of this new tower could be is 140 + 300 + 25 (mech) = 465ft!

The apartment market is strong, but not that strong.

I'd presume that there will likely be some mix like this:
1 penthouse floor: 4-5 units
5 floors with 8 units per floor = 40
8 floors with 12 per floor = 96
5 floors with 20 per floor = 100

That's 19 new floors on top of the stump for a rough total of 140 + 190 + 25 (mech) = 355ft.

This also presumes that the apartment floors take up most of the footprint of the existing stump (which all previous renderings of condos showed it doing).

So while I'd love to believe that Cityscape would someday yield a new tallest, the numbers the way they are talking don't pencil.

Just my thoughts, I'm probably totally wrong, but I really enjoy these types of exercises.

[combusean]

So there's this information from last August...

I posted this last August regarding the building activity on top of the new hotel...you may want to read it again..it might help answer your questions:


#6718 Posted: Aug 26, 2011, 11:55 AM
azcats
Registered User Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 5

ok...first...I don't post here often...however, I do read and look at this sight. I think your pictures you guys take...are great...apprecaite you continuing with the pics.

No one seems to know if RED is going to continue building on top of the Palomar (Kimpton) Hotel. So, I called RED - and got ahold of a Keith Earnest. He indicated that he is the person that knows what is going on. He said that the hotel should be open by next April. As far as the continuation on top of the hotel: He said that there have been changes in their plans...however, they have settled on building multi-family (apartments) on top of the Palomar Hotel. Keith said that the design has changed since the original design...and that the building will top out at only about 23 floors - instead of the original 34 floors. Keith also said that there will be some lag time - like 3 months - when they start up on building the apartments...I lost him here a little - however, I think he said that the construction for the aprtments would begin later this year(?) I also lost him a little on the completion date...however, I believe he said the apartments would be ready by 2013. Whether this happens or not...that is what he said. if you want to call and talk to him - call Keith Earnest in RED's (Scottsdale?) office. His number has a 480 area code - so, I am figuring it is located in Scottsdale.

And there's this somewhat recent rendering:
http://emvis.net/~sean/ssp/projects/cityscape/mpitzer-cityscape1.jpg

Which also details the absolute suckage of the Palomar's present-day value engineered facade.

I really doubt that it would be the tallest.

With a 100ft x 200ft footprint , you could possibly get a maximum of 20 units per floor (assuming 16 800-900sf units and 4 1000sf units). That's only 12 more floors. That's the low end.

Or 10 1200sf units with 4 1000sf end units = 14 per floor. That's still only 17-18 more floors.

Or 8 1600sf units with 4 1000sf end units = 12 per floor. That's 20 floors.

Or 6 2100sf units with 2 2000sf end units = 8 per floor. That's 30 floors.

Lets assume this is some uber luxury apartment tower (8 per floor) and that the existing hotel stump is maybe 140ft tall, that means the maximum height of this new tower could be is 140 + 300 + 25 (mech) = 465ft!

The apartment market is strong, but not that strong.

I'd presume that there will likely be some mix like this:
1 penthouse floor: 4-5 units
5 floors with 8 units per floor = 40
8 floors with 12 per floor = 96
5 floors with 20 per floor = 100

That's 19 new floors on top of the stump for a rough total of 140 + 190 + 25 (mech) = 355ft.

This also presumes that the apartment floors take up most of the footprint of the existing stump (which all previous renderings of condos showed it doing).

So while I'd love to believe that Cityscape would someday yield a new tallest, the numbers the way they are talking don't pencil.

Just my thoughts, I'm probably totally wrong, but I really enjoy these types of exercises.

The point to me is that, in the rendering at least, the footprint for the residential tower is much smaller than the footprint for the Palomar. Plinko, you are mistaken, I have never seen the condos occupy the footprint of the palomar, if anything the palomar in early early renderings was the size of the square-footprint condo tower.

In everything I've seen like the above rendering, the apartment tower is definitely not 100x200'. According to the county's satellite photo measurements in the Assessor's web application, the north/south depth is exactly 100', the Palomar is exactly 200' wide. In the rendering, the apartment tower appears closer to 100x100', which doubles all of Plinko's estimates...140 + 380 + 25 approaches the height limit for the site...

Obviously it depends on what they ultimately build, but I would think RED wouldn't compromise the views of its class A office building by building the apartment tower as wide as the Palomar.

[phxSUNSfan]

In everything I've seen like the above rendering, the apartment tower is definitely not 100x200'. According to the county's satellite photo measurements in the Assessor's web application, the north/south depth is exactly 100', the Palomar is exactly 200' wide. In the rendering, the apartment tower appears closer to 100x100', which doubles all of Plinko's estimates...140 + 380 + 25 approaches the height limit for the site...

Agreed...In all of the renderings the apartment footprint covers about half of the Palomar. It should be a rather tall building when completed. Don't forget that one, possibly two floors will be mostly amenities for the apartments; pool, rec room, fitness center, business center, etc. The only saving grace for this entire project will be the apartment units: that is if the apartment tower is mostly a glass facade like 44 Monroe with pretty nice balconies. It will make a huge difference.

Many buildings in downtown Seattle follow a similar architectural format. It looks OK there because there are so many highrises that the ugly stumps (bases) are hidden by the rest of the skyline. They should have used more stone to enshrine the Palomar. More of that black granite-like material near ground level would have looked pretty nice.

[plinko]

See...that's what I get for not going back to check the renderings and just trying to remember.

It doesn't necessarily double my numbers exactly, but I can say that at 100 x 100 that a MAXIMUM of about 10 units (maybe 12) per floor. That's the low end. So for 240 units thats between 20 and 24 floors.

With the size ranges they would likely be looking for, to get 240 units it gets kind of interesting...

1 penthouse floor = 2 units (4500sf ea)
3 floors with 4 units per floor = 12 units (2300sf ea)
10 floors with 8 units per floor = 80 units (1100sf ea)
15 floors with 10 units per floor = 150 units (900sf ea)

Using that mix, you get 29 new floors, yielding 140 + 290 + 25 = 455ft

Even doing mix and matching (say...doing 1600sf units), I still don't think that 240 units would yield another 10 floors.

Again, I could be totally wrong here, but I'll be shocked if this ever gets off the ground as a new tallest.

Wasn't Davis hired to do the redesign? That's at least promising if true. Certainly better than Seattle architects trying to design for the desert.

[phxSUNSfan]

See...that's what I get for not going back to check the renderings and just trying to remember.

With the size ranges they would likely be looking for, to get 240 units it gets kind of interesting...

Using that mix, you get 29 new floors, yielding 140 + 290 + 25 = 455ft

Even doing mix and matching (say...doing 1600sf units), I still don't think that 240 units would yield another 10 floors.

Again, I could be totally wrong here, but I'll be shocked if this ever gets off the ground as a new tallest.

Wasn't Davis hired to do the redesign? That's at least promising if true. Certainly better than Seattle architects trying to design for the desert.

It will likely be over 500' tall. Again, if 44 Monroe is any indication 15 ft ceilings will likely be the norm. With 24-26 floors of residential units, including the apartment "conceirge center" and amenities, it could top off at nearly 530'...

I hope Davis didn't design the Palomar; it would be substandard work for them. Their design for the Downtown W Hotel was pretty damn nice...

[combusean]

^ Do your measurements account for the center portion of any tower taken up by the central mechanic/stairwell core?

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=5457471&postcount=6873

I don't know how much of the core in this is apartment mechanical that continues up and hotel mechanical, that, what, stops? Center core/corridors/etc certainly affects net square feet.

[HX_Guy]

34 stories is the number they have said in the past when it was supposed to be 200 condo units. With apartments likely to be smaller, they can probably fit 240 apts in that same 34 stories (that's including the Palomar hotel, not on top of).

[HX_Guy]

Remember also that 44 Monroe was built as a condo tower, not apartments so higher ceilings and bigger units.

[combusean]

It will likely be over 500' tall. Again, if 44 Monroe is any indication 15 ft ceilings will likely be the norm. With 24-26 floors of residential units, including the apartment "conceirge center" and amenities, it could top off at nearly 530'...

I hope Davis didn't design the Palomar; it would be substandard work for them. Their design for the Downtown W Hotel was pretty damn nice...

15' floor-to-floor is way high. 44 Monroe is 34 stories and 380'....

http://emvis.net/~sean/ssp/height_rules_of_thumb.txt

[phxSUNSfan]

34 stories is the number they have said in the past when it was supposed to be 200 condo units. With apartments likely to be smaller, they can probably fit 240 apts in that same 34 stories (that's including the Palomar hotel, not on top of).

True, and it all depends on ceiling heights and mechanical and other structural features like Combusean mentions. If the apartments do get built (and all 240 units), it will likely be the new tallest...

[phxSUNSfan]

15' floor-to-floor is way high. 44 Monroe is 34 stories and 380'....

Not all units have 15 foot ceilings; some have 12 and I think the smallest have 9 or 10 foot ceilings. The 10 floor garage also shrinks the overall height of 44 Monroe...If RED wants the new apartments to be competitive and offer an advantage over their neighbors they will likely offer taller ceilings and nice floor plans.