Phoenix CityScape Thread

[vertex]

:previous: Is this the link?

Plan Review Search (http://phoenix.gov/haht-bin/hsrun/payf/DSDOPPROD/StateId/Ry_ZXjUcf9_XGXOgtMJMvr4N3oeMy-3OJp/HAHTpage/HS_PlanSearch)

[District8]

:previous: Is this the link?

Plan Review Search (http://phoenix.gov/haht-bin/hsrun/payf/DSDOPPROD/StateId/Ry_ZXjUcf9_XGXOgtMJMvr4N3oeMy-3OJp/HAHTpage/HS_PlanSearch)

Yeah, then click on Plan Review Search Information. You will need an address, project name or project number (KIVA number).

[HX_Guy]

So much for ground breaking the summer huh? ;) Hopefully at least the September date sticks.

Patriots Square may vanish in September
Jahna Berry
The Arizona Republic
May. 16, 2007 12:28 PM

In September, Patriots Square Park could have a date with bulldozers.

The park and two nearby city blocks are the future site for CityScape, a $900 million development that will mix shops, condo and office space. CityScape is expected to open in 2009.

Mayor Phil Gordon said Tuesday that the demolition is set for September






"As part of CityScape, we will have a park that is the amenity it should always have been," said Gordon noting that he has pressed for the park's overhaul since he became mayor in 2004.

RED Development spokesman Jason Bacon said there was no set demolition date for park site, but confirmed construction for the three-block project would begin around that time.

"What we are planning now is a ground breaking kickoff around at the beginning of September," Bacon said.

When CityScape construction begins, it will be a dramatic turn for the 1976 urban park. Patriots Square sits at Phoenix's "zero point," the intersection where all city addresses start at zero and radiate outward.

A 1988 facelift helped make the brick-lined park state-of-the-art, but over the years it's been underused by residents and is now a haven for the homeless.

[HooverDam]

^Cool, but I think they should let the public help demolish that hell hole. I know I'd love to take an axe or baseball bat to the 'park.'

[Tfom]

^Cool, but I think they should let the public help demolish that hell hole. I know I'd love to take an axe or baseball bat to the 'park.'

If we did that, it would probably be the most populous event in the "park's" history. The save PSP people, whoever they are, might use it to justify their argument for saving it. We might want to burn it down from a distance just to be safe.

[HooverDam]

If we did that, it would probably be the most populous event in the "park's" history. The save PSP people, whoever they are, might use it to justify their argument for saving it. We might want to burn it down from a distance just to be safe.

Good point, we should get some jets out from Luke and smart bomb the thing.

[phxtempe]

Good Riddance To The Piss Hole

When Is Construction Due To Start And What Is The Time Line For The Project?

[Don B.]

^ Soon and many years. :)

--don

[sundevilgrad]

2011 for full build out. 2009 for Phase I. I'll be suprised if we ever see full build out by 2011...

[HX_Guy]

RED Development inks restaurant partnership deal
The Business Journal of Phoenix - 3:02 PM MST Friday, May 18, 2007
by Jonathan J. Cooper

The developer behind an expansive mixed-use project in downtown Phoenix is joining forces with a company that creates theme-based destination restaurants.

RED Development, which is planning the 2.5 million-square-foot CityScape project in downtown Phoenix, Friday announced a partnership Friday with Schussler Creative, the corporation behind the Rain Forest Cafe.


The partnership gives RED a financial stake in all of Schussler's new restaurants, even those that don't open in a RED development, said Dave Claflin, a RED spokesman.

More specific details about the deal were not immediately available, Claflin said.

"We guarantee ourselves a dynamic anchor attraction for a given center," Claflin said. "It has the secondary component of allowing us to roll these out."

Schussler has seven restaurant concepts that have not yet been rolled out, including Hot Dog Hall of Fame, Winter Wonderland and America's Roadhouse.

Scottsdale-based RED is not yet sure which, if any, of the Schussler's brands might appear in the CityScape project.

For more: www.reddevelopment.com.

[HooverDam]

^Well that certainly sounds like the type of hell hole bizarro restaurant I'd never eat in, but I certainly understand there is a market for it. I definitely can see a lot of people going to a place like the Rainforest Cafe before a Suns/Dbacks game.

[combusean]

I think it's unlikely you'll see something as large scale as a Rainforest Cafe in CityScape. Their restaurant at Arizona Mills is/was (I havent been down there in a while) huge, and Mike Ebert says CityScape's formula will involve "cram[ming] as many retailers in there as possible."

Seeing the grand designs they're coming up with for the CivicSpace is both the process I wish PSP had but some saving grace that we're really coming out ahead when you take CityScape into account--that is, if it's built, and it's looking good that it will be. Granted, the bulk of our open space will be really owned and directed by Ira Fulton, but let's hope they're not at anal with performances and the things that make a public space a public space.

[andrewkfromaz]

Wow. Arizona Mills was a huge attraction (for my family at least) when it opened, and Rainforest Cafe was part of that. Nowadays, it seems like mostly gangs inhabit the mall, and the Cafe has lost a huge, huge part of its luster. Would be interesting to see how the concept of weird random restaurants is updated for CityScape though.

[NorthScottsdale]

Patriots Square may vanish in September
Jahna Berry
The Arizona Republic
May. 16, 2007 12:28 PM

In September, Patriots Square Park could have a date with bulldozers.

The park and two nearby city blocks are the future site for CityScape, a $900 million development that will mix shops, condo and office space. CityScape is expected to open in 2009.

Mayor Phil Gordon said Tuesday that the demolition is set for September





"As part of CityScape, we will have a park that is the amenity it should always have been," said Gordon noting that he has pressed for the park's overhaul since he became mayor in 2004.

RED Development spokesman Jason Bacon said there was no set demolition date for park site, but confirmed construction for the three-block project would begin around that time.

"What we are planning now is a ground breaking kickoff around at the beginning of September," Bacon said.

When CityScape construction begins, it will be a dramatic turn for the 1976 urban park. Patriots Square sits at Phoenix's "zero point," the intersection where all city addresses start at zero and radiate outward.

A 1988 facelift helped make the brick-lined park state-of-the-art, but over the years it's been underused by residents and is now a haven for the homeless.

[HX_Guy]

Condo developer Novare to expand into three new metropolises
Atlanta Business Chronicle - May 18, 2007
by Lisa R. Schoolcraft

Making moves: Jim Borders, CEO of Novare Group Inc., is expanding into the Jacksonville, Fla., Houston and Phoenix markets.

One of Atlanta's biggest condominium developers plans to expand into three new markets.

Novare Group Inc. is eyeing the Jacksonville, Fla., Houston and Phoenix markets, and expects to be there by the end of the year.

Novare is the company that is part of the "Project Team" outlined on CiiyScaped website. Maybe "expects to be there by the end of the year" refers to the CityScape project.

[FortyAcres]

I saw in the AZ republic that H&M was finally expanding to the Valley. Putting a flagship (okay, sorry, lets be real) or a large to medium sized store in Cityscape would ABSOLUTELY bring immediate cache to downtown. Of course, its damn near impossible to convince the people who make these decisions that places like PF Chang, HardRock, and The Gap are just not draws for suburban dwellers. At least i'll have someplace to grab some honey seared shrimp in 5 years. Meh.

[HooverDam]

I saw in the AZ republic that H&M was finally expanding to the Valley. Putting a flagship (okay, sorry, lets be real) or a large to medium sized store in Cityscape would ABSOLUTELY bring immediate cache to downtown. Of course, its damn near impossible to convince the people who make these decisions that places like PF Chang, HardRock, and The Gap are just not draws for suburban dwellers. At least i'll have someplace to grab some honey seared shrimp in 5 years. Meh.

H&M?

[jvbahn]

Hennes & Mauritz, it's a Swedish clothing store, like the IKEA of clothing. Good stuff cheap, that's the general idea.

[KEVINphx]

H&M is looking most to open at Tempe Marketplace, Scottsdale Fashion Square and Chandler Fasion Center. If they enter the market they will open stores across the valley, not just a single location. I would guess that if they do open in this way, that a store downtown would not be much of an attraction with locations out in the suburbs as well.

[JimInCal]

I'm not sure how much space H&M typically requires for a store but their MO sounds ideal for the retail overhaul that is planned for Arizona Center. The AZ Center is right next door to ASU and all those financially strapped college students who want to to be stylin but need lower-cost alternatives.

[HooverDam]

I'm not sure how much space H&M typically requires for a store but their MO sounds ideal for the retail overhaul that is planned for Arizona Center. The AZ Center is right next door to ASU and all those financially strapped college students who want to to be stylin but need lower-cost alternatives.

Have any articles or links to more info about this? I wish they'd just shut down the Arizona Center for a couple years and turn it inside out so it faced outwards toward the street.

[JimInCal]

Hoov, I read about the retail overhaul as part of another story somewhere. I'm at work right now but will look at my history from this morning on my home computer and will try to find where it was said. It got me a little excited too. I agree with you about the reorientation of the AZ Center. Its location is becoming very strategic, by ASU and the new Sheraton. There is a big opportunity there if the right moves are made.

[JimInCal]

Sorry to get off the Cityscape track a bit here but I found the piece I read earlier in the day. I evidently went further in my mind than was actually reported in the story. Here is the link to the Phx Business Journal story (still worth a read) about different exec's that are rah-rah about downtown's evolution and the snippet about AZ Center:

http://www.coppersquare.com/business/news/613/

Immediately west of TGen is the Arizona Center, whose retail component is ripe for redevelopment, largely because it is immediately west of the 1,000-room Sheraton Downtown Phoenix Hotel, now under construction.

[DevdogAZ]

RED Development inks restaurant partnership deal
The Business Journal of Phoenix - 3:02 PM MST Friday, May 18, 2007
by Jonathan J. Cooper

The developer behind an expansive mixed-use project in downtown Phoenix is joining forces with a company that creates theme-based destination restaurants.

RED Development, which is planning the 2.5 million-square-foot CityScape project in downtown Phoenix, Friday announced a partnership Friday with Schussler Creative, the corporation behind the Rain Forest Cafe.


The partnership gives RED a financial stake in all of Schussler's new restaurants, even those that don't open in a RED development, said Dave Claflin, a RED spokesman.

More specific details about the deal were not immediately available, Claflin said.

"We guarantee ourselves a dynamic anchor attraction for a given center," Claflin said. "It has the secondary component of allowing us to roll these out."

Schussler has seven restaurant concepts that have not yet been rolled out, including Hot Dog Hall of Fame, Winter Wonderland and America's Roadhouse.

Scottsdale-based RED is not yet sure which, if any, of the Schussler's brands might appear in the CityScape project.

For more: www.reddevelopment.com.

This is horrible news. Rainforest Cafe is possibly one of the worst restaurants I've ever eaten in, and is typical of the type of establishment that is much more worried about the atmosphere and surroundings than about the food. That's exactly the opposite of what they should be trying to attract to CityScape. If the food is good, the people will come and come again, while if food sucks, they might try it once, but they won't be back. This sounds like RED is courting the type of retailers you'd find in any suburban mall and not trying to do anything unique or organic. Major :down:

[combusean]

I think outside of the known anchors for Cityscape--Changing Hands--yes, Mike confirmed it months ago, I wanted to wait until the hubub was over till announcing it...PF Changs, and AJ's, there simply won't be enough room for another major tenant and still have room for what they want to do--lots of shops.

I wouldn't be worried too much about their retail lineup. For as banal and suburban as a lot of what RED puts out--we're not in much of a position to immediately say "no thanks" to what I think will be an immediately useful array of shops to downtown/center-city residents.

:tup:

[ljbuild]

Good Riddance To The Piss Hole

When Is Construction Due To Start And What Is The Time Line For The Project?


I read in the AZ. republic paper from an edition that was printed last week that they were going to break ground by september.

all this patriots "nonsense" is whats delaying it. So if some sour-pus doesnt like the current redesigned plans guess what, they will need to spend
""MORE TIME"" coming up with new plans that will run into the same problem.

However at this stage in the game that isnt likely to happen. Plans have already been changed once and they will not be changed again. You cant please just a few souls and neglect the majority. So since there isnt an "immigrant reform type of parade" against the project I assume the MAJORITY doesnt have a problem with it . let the building begin and the political nonsense come to an end.

[vertex]

all this patriots "nonsense" is whats delaying it. So if some sour-pus doesnt like the current redesigned plans guess what, they will need to spend
""MORE TIME"" coming up with new plans that will run into the same problem.

Do yourself a favor and try reading some of the previous posts regarding this issue first. No sense in peeling off an old scab...

You cant please just a few souls and neglect the majority. So since there isnt an "immigrant reform type of parade" against the project I assume the MAJORITY doesnt have a problem with it . let the building begin and the political nonsense come to an end.

Well, let us know when you find out who the "MAJORITY" are. Otherwise, we can't assume anything, can we?

[kevininlb]

This is horrible news. Rainforest Cafe is possibly one of the worst restaurants I've ever eaten in, and is typical of the type of establishment that is much more worried about the atmosphere and surroundings than about the food. That's exactly the opposite of what they should be trying to attract to CityScape. If the food is good, the people will come and come again, while if food sucks, they might try it once, but they won't be back. This sounds like RED is courting the type of retailers you'd find in any suburban mall and not trying to do anything unique or organic. Major :down:

:previous: I totally disagree with you (not about the food, it isn't good). But Rainforest and the like, I think, are perfect for the neighborhood. What CS and all of DT Phoenix needs is more "stuff" for people visiting Phoenix to do (locals know where to find places but there currently isn't much for people not from around here). Rainforest will attract throngs of people visiting the convention center and it's the perfect place for families -- suburban locals -- bringing their kids downtown to see something like Disney on Ice and for people working downtown it'll be cool to bring clients or whatever. There's so little of this type of "event" restaurant downtown that I think one or two or three will be embraced and packed.

[combusean]

The problem about putting more "stuff" downtown is that we already have plenty of "stuff" to do downtown, and that stuff that is there isn't even helping the basic problem--putting people on the streets after 5 o'clock outside of event/game nights.

A lot of what Colangelo tried to push through with the Jerde Partnership would have created something akin to the Universal City Walk in Hollywood in downtown Phoenix--pure tourist, chain-filled crap that the locals go to once in their lifetimes but never again.

Rainforest Cafe (curiously common among Disney developments) and other "event" type restaurants of this sort is the last thing we want downtown--they create no lasting value whatsoever. The idea that we need to cram more suburban crap into the downtown area to make it more comfortable for suburbanites and tourists is asinine and counter to what we've learned. We've tried it, we've failed at it, and we've had this discussion before.

Suburbanites won't go downtown for a Rainforest Cafe. They are going downtown for one-of-a-kind restaurants like Cibo that just can't be found anywhere else. These types of places combined with the back-to-basics retail will draw people to actually live downtown. Nobody wants to live in Disneyland.

If some vacant-eyed tourist/ASU student/suburbanite is hungry, they need a map to Carly's, Seamus's, Pizzeria Bianco, etc. If they want an Applebee's, they can stay in their own damn neighborhood.

[vertex]

Well, one thing that has to be considered is the number of convention attendees that will be downtown once the hotels and the CC are finished. Sometimes your typical out-of-town visitor will probably look for an authentic, local experience if they have the time. Otherwise, they will want something fast and predictable. PF Changs will fit the bill just fine. I have my doubts about Rainforest though, it seems too family-oriented.

[Vicelord John]

While I too hate Rainforest Cafe, I think you guys are poo poo'ing a great deal for us. I'd love to have Rainforest Cafe, why you ask? Because it will attract people... think about this you bozos, some people think Rainforest Cafe is good food, and it has a very big draw at Arizona Mills. I'm thinking about the added benefits of tax revenue and people milling around making a place busy, which in turn will generate more interest for neighboring retail space. I can't see any negatives about having a Rainforest Cafe downtown. I'll never eat there, but I'm sure I'll shop/dine in the places it helps attract.

[sundevilgrad]

My two cents: They should try and lure Oregano's back downtown.

[Vicelord John]

Suburbanites won't go downtown for a Rainforest Cafe. They are going downtown for one-of-a-kind restaurants like Cibo that just can't be found anywhere else. These types of places combined with the back-to-basics retail will draw people to actually live downtown. Nobody wants to live in Disneyland.

If some vacant-eyed tourist/ASU student/suburbanite is hungry, they need a map to Carly's, Seamus's, Pizzeria Bianco, etc. If they want an Applebee's, they can stay in their own damn neighborhood.
You're thinking of this totally from your own perspective. Try looking at it from your typical mormon, north peoria, family household. They are not going downtown for two reasons: it's scary, and there is nothing they are familiar with. Adding restaurants and shops which they are familiar with is going to make it less scary for them because they wont feel like they are in a foreign country. I've heard it plenty of times from my friends, many of whom are that stereotype. We are vacationing in another city and someone says hey! lets go to Applebee's and they always always pick the one downtown i.e. Gaslamp, Mag Mile, etc. rather than the "boring one in the suburbs" because they want the experience of going downtown and strolling. None of them are willing to do that for something they are un-familiar with because things that are different are scary to them. Basically what I am saying is given the choice of the Applebee's by your house which is predictible and familiar, or the little Asian house called Fate which may or may not be something you like, your'e going to choose Applebee's.:yuck:

[CANUC]

Wow JV you posted and insightful well thought out post without getting your self worked up to the point dropping an f-bomb.:tup: I double your observation I agree that for the average Joe & Jane a visit to downtown whether be it for a sporting event or concert or for a potential conventioneer the ability to find something ‘familiar’ would indeed help in appeasing the ‘unknown’ factor.

While I understand that for the more cosmopolitan folks that chose to inhabit downtown the choice between an Applebee’s and say a Cibo is a no brainer the same can’t be said for the casual visitor and lets face it downtown does indeed need both types; the permanent resident and the suburbanite/ASU student/tourist to give it – and I’ll use a cliché – critical mass. Plain and simple the Gaslamp District in San Diego is not sustained solely by local residents, heck I’d bet a great portion of the visitors are in fact tourist. So the idea that suburbanites should ‘stay in their own neighborhoods’ because they want familiar surroundings is a bit extreme and very counter productive. I mean who’s to say that even the people who do live downtown and have chosen to buy a condo, home, loft or apartment don’t want and Applebee’s or an Outback? Why should they have to reverse course and drive to the suburbs to find something that isn’t downtown? Shouldn’t they also have the same choices available to them no matter how cookie cutter it may seem?

[HooverDam]

I completely agree w/ Canuc and Vandercook. People like my parents for instance when they come to a Suns or Dbacks game don't eat downtown right now because all the places are scary or 'weird,' they usually eat somewhere near 24th st/Camelback thats more run of the mill and safe. Downtown definitely needs places like PF Changs, Rainforest, etc that suburban folks, convention attendees, etc will feel safe and comfortable at. I've already accepted that Cityscape is going to be very chainy, and aimed at tourists, suburban folks and convention attendee's, and thats fine. With the Roosevelt/Evans Churchill neighborhoods improving, and the Jackson St area, there will be plenty of room downtown for both chainy/suburban type stuff, as well as unique stuff.

I live downtown, and I can tell you, I do miss some suburban amenities quite often. For instance, I have to drive all the way to Camelback and 7th Ave to go to a Target, with the traffic its up to 15 minutes each way. I'd love it if there was a Target downtown somewhere (north side of Van Buren between 7th ave and 5th ave or something). I'd also love to have something like a hardware store downtown as well, but thats another topic I suppose.

[combusean]

I grew up around half-priced appetizers at Applebee's during happy hour, and if somebody wants to go one night I'm not one to force something new down their throat. I'd be happy right now to see Home Depot set up shop just as much as I'd be happy to see my neighbor open an Ace Hardware.

We are vacationing in another city and someone says hey! lets go to Applebee's and they always always pick the one downtown i.e. Gaslamp, Mag Mile, etc. rather than the "boring one in the suburbs" because they want the experience of going downtown and strolling. None of them are willing to do that for something they are un-familiar with because things that are different are scary to them

I don't get the point of going on vacation and eating at a place found in my home city or every other one for that matter. Granted, if it's 3 AM, I'm hungry/drunk to all ends, and there's a Denny's across the street from my hotel, yeah, maybe I'll take the Denny's that night. But the way some of these posts read is that it's like some people spend their vacations half way around the country just to eat somewhere 10 minutes from home.

What's the point of that? If the places that make a downtown are "weird" or "scary" what's the point of even going there to begin with? Why bother going to downtown when there's places like "the District" :yuck: at Desert Ridge?

And ... "safe?" What, is the panini armed? 'Fraid of some server's really bad day? Do I dare use the R word? Or do people just never think to look at a menu to see if something sounds good before you sit down? They can't call a hotel concierge for suggestions? (doesn't matter if you're a guest) Seriously, I'm curious to see how these people think and how they come to their decisions. :shrug:

Sorry if I'd rather not entertain the irrational behaviors of suburban soccer moms who might keep the Rainforest Cafe open before and after an event but deader than a doornail anytime else...but, well, different strokes for different folks. But in the meantime I don't understand why people here are going head over heels at the concept and, were it up to them, would probably be actively encouraging the sort of thing instead of asking for more of the opposite.

I'd rather see a push for affordable rents and strengthening small business through things like cooperative bargaining and strong association. But even that has its darkside--I will be the first to point out where small business can downright suck: prices, merchandise selection, and hours of operation.

I hope there's a balance somewhere--Applebee's is invariably on its way, Seamus probably isn't going anywhere. Our measure of success is how many blocks of those 90 total in "Copper Square" are lit up when there's nothing else going on. Maybe downtown is big enough for everybody.

But when chains with all their low-quality jobs that make them push out and water down our own unique treasures to where we start wondering where the old places went it will be too late. It's already happened to Mill Avenue--the sheer irony of a luxury Harley Davidson apparel store in an area previously known for dirt-floor biker bars almost made me lose my lunch. I'd like to think it's not too late for downtown Phoenix.

Stop wanting to make downtown more and more hospitable for tourists. It already is unless those orange-shirted "Copper Square Ambassadors" start hand-holding folks across the street. Instead, let's make downtown hospitable for the people that live there and future residents. Do we particularly care if it's Joe's Video Shack or Blockbuster? Probably not. But Joe's probably not going to move in second. Even if beggars can't be choosers, we must be mindful of that sort of short-sightedness now which will cost us in the future. That's all :)

[Downtown_resident]

I despise Applebee's, but I'd love to see one come downtown. Why? Because I think it would get slaughtered, and that type of chain crap would become pretty reluctant to come downtown again.

The suburbanites who come to downtown a few times a year to catch a game rarely grab a bite to eat outside the stadium. Instead, they head inside Chase Field for dinner and hit the road by the sixth inning to get back to Queen Creek by bedtime. They wouldn't help an Applebee's much. And the people who are going to live downtown are certainly not heading to that type of place. Outside of the lunch crowd, I bet an Applebee's (and maybe even a Rainforest Cafe) is going to have a pretty tough go.

As far as tourism goes, doesn't anyone think that cosmopolitan people travel? Everyone here seems to think that all tourists are exurbanites from middle America-- but that's not necessarily the case. I'd love to have a downtown that would appeal to tourists of a slightly different ilk. Scottsdale has done this somewhat with the boutique hotels it's bringing in, but there's no reason why Phoenix can't aim for a slice of this market as well. If we expect to draw boring, whitebread America, that's exactly what we'll get.

[sundevilgrad]

You guys might not like chain restaurants/stores/fill-in-the-blank, but there's a reason why they're all over the place. The majority of people enjoy places like that. Not that they don't like small, unique things, but it's not easy to take a gamble every night for dinner just to see if that little place has good food or not. People take the easy way out. They know the food, no what to expect and accept it. Even urbanites that live downtown do it. That's just how people operate.

BTW - just my opinion... Applebee's would kill downtown, especially with ASU dorms going in.

[DevdogAZ]

http://www.slagoon.com/dailies/SL070526.gif

[soleri]

Suburbanites might prefer eating at Applebee's but there's still got to be a reason to go downtown. That reason is an exciting streetscape with lots of other people. But then you have to contend with the hassle factor: parking garages, validation, and the inevitable "weirdness" that downtown will always have. People go to Gaslamp because it seems hip and safe. CityScape might well be safe, but is it going to be hip?

CityScape may or may not try to make this work like Desert Ridge, but if it doesn't expand the palette beyond that suburban typology, forget about it. It's simply much easier to go to a gussied-up power center with lots of surface parking. The unique but weird restaurants are essential for that reason. If downtown establishes a sophisticated cachet, if it gets a reputation for attracting adventurous people. The predictable folks will themselves notice and want to check it out. Downtown will never compete with Esplanade/Biltmore or Desert Ridge/City North and it shouldn't try. Yeah, it won't hurt to have an Applebee's or a California Pizza Kitchen, but there damn well better be other and BETTER places than that. Otherwise, downtown sells out and not for anything worthwhile.

My worry about CityScape is that it will be so sterile that nothing unique will seed there. And if that's the case, CityScape will fail because there's no reason to put up with the necessary hassles of its downtown location. Like it or not, we're never going to get away from the chicken/egg problem of downtown. We're either going to create real value there (meaning: good architecture, good retail, interesting venues) or it's going to be just another half-assed effort at creating excitement in a vacuum.

[Vicelord John]

Sean, I think you are missing the point. The point is we all want more stuff going on downtown, more people, more events. If you only want to have organic growth and things like Fate and Cibo, they are only going to draw a small portion of the population. Admit it, a majority of the population thinks places like those are weird and will never go, but they loooooove Applebee's. Put an Applebee's downtown and all sorts of people are going to come out of the woodwork. Before you know it, Applebee's is going to draw other places and before you know it, you've drawn in people whom would never imagine going otherwise. Sure it is gentrification, but you're asking for one thing (choices and more people around) and then when you find a way to get it, you shoo it away.

[PHX NATIVE 929]

Why all of the consistent hate directed at Applebee's? It is what it is. An average-priced restaurant that serves average food, no different than Chili's, Ruby Tuesdays, Max & Erma's, TGI Friday's and so forth and so on. They serve a need. The second the public stops eating at these restaurants, the second they will stop opening new stores. They are MARKET DRIVEN. They serve a need that obviously thousands of people look to. Some of you (not all) act as if the companies themselves or the people that eat there are evil.

Is the rule of thumb for an "urbanist" that if a company opens more than one location, it becomes a pathetic place for a "suburbanite"? Come on! I venture that the elitist mentalities of many "urbanites" does more harm than any Applebee's ever could.

I was in Las Vegas last week for the ICSC convention. I was also in RED's booth for a project unrelated to Cityscape. But from conversations, I've had with friends at RED, I believe there's a good chance that we'll see the right mix of unique shops and chain stores. However, ALWAYS keep in mind that a unique tenant must first want to locate there AND be credit-worthy AND be willing to pay the big bucks rent that this center will command. It's never as easy as saying "Why doesn't developer X just put Y in project Z"?

[nbrindley]

An Applebee's is not going to shut down Fate, Chibo etc. And the fact of the matter is, for the majority of convention goers, it will suit them just fine. They are not going to have time to search out all the cool, local little places for every meal. They've got an hour for lunch, where will they go? Somewhere where they know they'll get fast service and decent food at a decent price. I doubt they really think places like Fate are 'weird', but a familiar restaurant is just convenient.

[NorthScottsdale]

what i think we really need downtown is a few fast food restaurants. like a 24 hour taco bell and a subway or 2. especially with the asu campus going up. most college kids would way rather stop by a taco bell on their way to or from class for a quick meal instead of trying to find a sit-down restaurant. really where is there a fast food restaurant anywhere near the core? also i think a denny's, at least near the core, would do really well. its something people know and know what to expect. and they are open 24 hours :)

[HooverDam]

what i think we really need downtown is a few fast food restaurants. like a 24 hour taco bell and a subway or 2. especially with the asu campus going up. most college kids would way rather stop by a taco bell on their way to or from class for a quick meal instead of trying to find a sit-down restaurant. really where is there a fast food restaurant anywhere near the core? also i think a denny's, at least near the core, would do really well. its something people know and know what to expect. and they are open 24 hours :)

There is a Subway on Central, North of Adams.

A Quiznos at Adams and Central, as well as at 2nd st and Washington, and one at Roosevelt and 7th st.

A McDonalds at 7th Ave and Van Buren or so.

A Burger King at First and Washington

So there are a few fast food places to go to in the core.

[Vicelord John]

there is also a subway at Arizona Center that is open until 9 nightly

and where is the Quiznos at 2nd and Washington?? Is it in Collier? All I can think of is Brothers, Kincaid's, Paradise, some chinese place, and I think thats it...

[HooverDam]

there is also a subway at Arizona Center that is open until 9 nightly

and where is the Quiznos at 2nd and Washington?? Is it in Collier? All I can think of is Brothers, Kincaid's, Paradise, some chinese place, and I think thats it...

I don't know, it doesn't ring a bell for me either, I'm just going by what Google Maps tells me. But now that Google Maps told me it was there, I think Im able to imagine it there, but I may just be insane.

[phxazguy]

Why the hell you guys hating on Rainforest Cafe so much? The food is ok but it's an awesome place compared to applebees, fridays, chile's, etc. Not to mention it attracts people like crazy. The one in downtown Disney is loaded with people all day long even during lunch. It's the kind of place that attracts attention and people from the burbs will say, "Oh yeah, Rainforest Cafe. Let's take the kids there sometime and maybe see a show or a Dbacks game after." I think it's a great idea for dt and we shouldn't be acting like it's the only place for food. Aren't they also building a PF Changs at Cityscape?

[pbenjamin]

I don't know, it doesn't ring a bell for me either, I'm just going by what Google Maps tells me. But now that Google Maps told me it was there, I think Im able to imagine it there, but I may just be insane.

Facing 2nd, set back from the street, sort of behind the escalator.

Most of the fast food places mentioned here are open only in the daytime.

[NorthScottsdale]

oops. maybe they just arent that visible i can never find fast food downtown. the only ones i know of is subway on central and thomas and wendys on central and indian school. i stand corrected

[PHX_PD]

Why the hell you guys hating on Rainforest Cafe so much? The food is ok but it's an awesome place compared to applebees, fridays, chile's, etc. Not to mention it attracts people like crazy. The one in downtown Disney is loaded with people all day long even during lunch. It's the kind of place that attracts attention and people from the burbs will say, "Oh yeah, Rainforest Cafe. Let's take the kids there sometime and maybe see a show or a Dbacks game after." I think it's a great idea for dt and we shouldn't be acting like it's the only place for food. Aren't they also building a PF Changs at Cityscape?

Everyone is hating on Rainforest Café because our downtown is in need of something better. Like soleri said, what’s the point of having to hassle with parking to eat downtown when you can go to Arizona Mills and get the same thing? Cityscape needs something that isn’t a chain restaurant; something unique and organic that makes downtown a worthy destination. It would be a mistake to take the approach of “we’ll take what we can get.” Comparing it to the one in Downtown Disney isn’t really logical because there are probably tens of thousands of people walking through there on a daily basis, and they have to eat somewhere. That said, there is definitely a place for Applebee’s, Chile’s, and fast food restaurants downtown. There just needs to be something original and interesting mixed in to appeal to a more adventurous or sophisticated crowd.

[HooverDam]

So obviously Cityscape will have some chains in it, mixed in with some completely new places. What sort of chains would you all like to see? I thought about it, and I'd be happy with any of the following:

-Gelato Spot (currently the only ice cream place downtown is the Coldstone in the AZ Center)
-Pop The Soda Shop (go here if you aren't familiar: http://www.popsoda.com, they only have one location currently, and Im not sure if they are looking to expand)
-Manuels (or any Mexican, I'd like to be able to chose something other than Mi Amigos and The Matador)
-Cereality (http://www.cereality.com, they already have one in Tempe)
-See's Candy and/or Godiva/any type of candy place

For non food stores:
-Apple Store. There is none in the west valley, or the central Valley (though I suppose the Biltmore location is fairly close), perhaps a Cityscape location could serve both crowds. Apple stores seem to bring a certain cache.
-House of Hoops (new Nike/Foot locker venture, focusing specifically on basketball products. I'd think that would do well in our hoops crazed city)
-Any of those boutique clothing places like you see at Biltmore/Fashion Square

I'm sure I could think of more, but most of those are fairly unique chains (sort of an oxymoron I know), and I hope thats what Cityscape aims for.

[Vicelord John]

Hooverdam, apple has signed on already at Zanjero on 99th and Glendale, so there is about to be one on the wessssieeeed.

and i like those ideas, and would like to add that one thing I'd love to see is a super popular piece of shit chain restaurant (Garduno's, Cheesecake, CPK, etc.) Come to think of it Cheesecake Factory would be awesome, and they usually co-exist with PF changs very well.

[CANUC]

I think the Biltmore and downtown both need a YC's Mongolian. Awsome stir fry, good price, good food. It would kill in both locations.

[HooverDam]

I think the Biltmore and downtown both need a YC's Mongolian. Awsome stir fry, good price, good food. It would kill in both locations.

Would they want another Asian-ish type place w. the PF Changs already being in there though?

I didn't know about the West Side Apple store, that probably means downtown wouldn't get one, I don't know if the Valley could support 4 Apple stores or not.

[combusean]

* I second YC's tho it would compete more with the likes of Sing High than PF Chang's.
* I second Pop the Soda Shop. They have too good deals on Monsters and such an awesome selection, plus it's all ages.
* I'd also like a Buffalo Exchange downtown. It would probably do well.
* An Ace Hardware.
* I'll take another Berto's (filiberto's, raliberto's, etc).
* A steakhouse sorta like Bill Johnson's.
* An IHOP/Waffle House/breakfasty-type place that's open 24 hours.

The Subway on 1st Avenue and Monroe is open pretty late...I wonder how downtown can support two.

[DevdogAZ]

Why the hell you guys hating on Rainforest Cafe so much? The food is ok but it's an awesome place compared to applebees, fridays, chile's, etc. Not to mention it attracts people like crazy. The one in downtown Disney is loaded with people all day long even during lunch. It's the kind of place that attracts attention and people from the burbs will say, "Oh yeah, Rainforest Cafe. Let's take the kids there sometime and maybe see a show or a Dbacks game after." I think it's a great idea for dt and we shouldn't be acting like it's the only place for food. Aren't they also building a PF Changs at Cityscape?

I'm hating on Rainforest because it's pure crap! Crap food, crap atmosphere, inflated prices, etc. I don't mind most of the chains mentioned. I'd love to see a Chili's or Outback somewhere downtown. However, I hate the type of restaurants that try to make themselves out to be something more than just an eating establishment. People don't want to eat at a theme park, and they don't want to pay theme park prices for horrible food. People will pay for good food and will go back to places with enjoyable atmosphere, but the fake manufactured crap needs to stay at the mall.

[kevininlb]

:previous: Now you're just being dumb. Whether Rainforest is right for Phoenix, who knows? But people do want to eat in theme parks. The Rainforest Cafe in downtown Chicago has been packed for about 10 years. There are customers for this place whether you, me or anyone else here likes it or not. Moving on...

[HooverDam]

* I second YC's tho it would compete more with the likes of Sing High than PF Chang's.


Good point, and thats fine w/ me, because as much as I love supporting local business thats been around for a while, Sing High has been terrible the two times I've gone. Ill probably give it one more shot, and then if it stinks again, 3 strikes, its out.

[sundevilgrad]

* A steakhouse sorta like Bill Johnson's.


Doesn't Kincaid's fit the bill?

[CANUC]

I don’t think you can compare YC’s to Sing High’s since YC’s is strictly a stir fry. Since the customer is responsible for creating their own dish by choosing from a combination of four different meats, over a two dozen topping and about a dozen seasoning sauces before handing it over to the cook, ultimately if the dish taste bad the customer has no one to blame but themselves. But trust me once you’ve pinned down the exact combination of food and flavorings you’ll never go wrong again.

[PHX NATIVE 929]

At the end of the day, any restaurant must at a bare minimum serve decent food with (hopefully) reasonable prices. Gimmicks will only take you so far. Case in point, you probably haven't eaten at Bobby McGee's or Planet Hollywood lately...

One "themed" restaurant that I used to take the family to and miss greatly is Ed Debevic's at Highland and 20th St.

YC's is outstanding. However, they are expanding outward, not inward. Their newest store should open in about two months in front of Harkins Theatres at Gilbert & Germann Roads.

[Vicelord John]

Doesn't Kincaid's fit the bill?

yeah... ask anyone who is a frequent Black Angus customer to go to kincaid's. "I aint goin to one a dem fancy schmancy uptown dress up places you can keep that. I reckon i'll be findin a black angus."

[sundevilgrad]

yeah... ask anyone who is a frequent Black Angus customer to go to kincaid's. "I aint goin to one a dem fancy schmancy uptown dress up places you can keep that. I reckon i'll be findin a black angus."

I don't care for either one (Kincaids or Bill Johnson's), I'm more of high-end steakhouse kinda guy. Speaking of which... Convention goers need a Ruth's Chris! I would say 75% of my business dinners with clients end up at Ruth's Chris... However, if they could some how transplant the Stockyards or Durant's I'd take those too...

[Vicelord John]

I don't care for either one (Kincaids or Bill Johnson's), I'm more of high-end steakhouse kinda guy. Speaking of which... Convention goers need a Ruth's Chris! I would say 75% of my business dinners with clients end up at Ruth's Chris... However, if they could some how transplant the Stockyards or Durant's I'd take those too...

That was kind of my point. Kincaid's is high end. It is a prime steakhouse, right on par with Ruth's Chris (blah, btw) and Mortons.

Why not take your business dinners to Donovan's and really wow them... for LESS MONEY!

[jvbahn]

Yes, a Morton's or Ruth's Chris would be a major addition to the downtown scene, bringing a more upscale touch to all this development.

However, while in PHX, if I'm gonna dish that kinda dough for steak, I can only do it at Durant's, and wash it down with a martini from that super-cool bar.

[sundevilgrad]

That was kind of my point. Kincaid's is high end. It is a prime steakhouse, right on par with Ruth's Chris (blah, btw) and Mortons.

Why not take your business dinners to Donovan's and really wow them... for LESS MONEY!

When I'm in town it's usually the Stockyards or Durant's. Out of town though, I look for the familiar... Just like convention goers coming to the new Convention Center will do, even if it means driving to the Biltmore...

[Vicelord John]

yeah skip stockyards and durants and go to Donovan's. It's not a chain, and you'll never do Durant's again after.

[pbenjamin]

yeah skip stockyards and durants and go to Donovan's. It's not a chain, and you'll never do Durant's again after.


What constitutes a chain? There is also one in La Jolla.

[oliveurban]

^ For the most part (at least to myself) our Donovan's is more just like a second location of an already very popular restaurant, only the original happens to be in San Diego. It's not just another link on a large, generic line of corporate or franchise operations, where quantity becomes more important than quality.

It's something spots like Ruth Christ's and Morton's have somewhat fallen victim to as they've grown larger and larger, trying to appeal to larger spectrums of people. They are still great places for high-quality steaks, however, Donovan's (at this point anyway) is still definitely a notch above them in food quality, service, and the like.

But again, that's not always the case I understand. As for places like Durant's, Pink Pony, Monti's, Stockyard's, etc., they are fantastic places too (still some of the best in town), but are all almost better for their old Phoenix atmosphere and charm, than "out-of-this-world" steaks. I love Durant's, but Donovan's trumps it foodwise in a heartbeat.

/end steak rant. :notacrook:

[sundevilgrad]

Ruth's Chris is a chain, but I think they have the best steaks. I love the seared crust, damn that's good, and I don't give a fuck if it's a chain or not. Good food is good food. Period.

[PHXRising]

Speaking of great steak joints...the $5 steak lunch special at Christie's Cabaret is delightful. The atmosphere is great & you get a lot of "bang" for your buck. :D

[sundevilgrad]

Speaking of great steak joints...the $5 steak lunch special at Christie's Cabaret is delightful. The atmosphere is great & you get a lot of "bang" for your buck. :D

Nice.

[PHX NATIVE 929]

Nobody has mentioned Fleming's. It's neck and neck with Donovan's for best steak in town in my book.

An underrated steakhouse is The Rokery, near 16th Street and Bethany Home. Their downstairs bar also might be the best in town.

[Vicelord John]

Nobody has mentioned Fleming's. It's neck and neck with Donovan's for best steak in town in my book.

An underrated steakhouse is The Rokery, near 16th Street and Bethany Home. Their downstairs bar also might be the best in town.

Ok first of all Fleming's sucks. There is NO WAY you can compare Fleming's with Donovan's.

Secondly, have you been to the Rokerij in the past 6 months? It's now Richardson's on steroids, right down to the atmosphere. It is not the contemporary atmosphere it was. The menu is upscale Richardson's now.

[vertex]

Speaking of great steak joints...the $5 steak lunch special at Christie's Cabaret is delightful. The atmosphere is great & you get a lot of "bang" for your buck. :D

Yeah, but they don't wear hairnets back behind the counter...

[PHX NATIVE 929]

Come to think of it, it probably has been over 6 months since I've been to the Rokery, so if they've changed the atmosphere, that's too bad.

As for Fleming's, the Flemings at DC Ranch is first-class in every way. There should be no argument.

[HooverDam]

The best steak I ever had was at a Denny's in Valencia, California near 6 Flags, but then again I hadn't slept in nearly 40 hours, so perhaps I was delusional.

[Vicelord John]

Come to think of it, it probably has been over 6 months since I've been to the Rokery, so if they've changed the atmosphere, that's too bad.



It's better:yes:

[sundevilgrad]

Yeah, but they don't wear hairnets back behind the counter...

Hairnets? Aren't most strippers bald?

[jvbahn]

So much for the CityScape thread, although talking about steak is as good as any use of time until they come out with new designs or something.

Don't forget TexAZ grill(you'll always be the original LoneStar!).....maybe not the world's best steak, but for some cool atmosphere, can't beat it. Also that place in Pinnacle Peak where they cut off your tie.

[combusean]

Ahhh! Was it known by Pinnacle Pete's back then? My aunt took me up there once years ago--I remember her telling me when she called the operator trying to find their number and instead got the directions she needed--back then they didn't have phone service and she had fielded so many calls herself for that establishment.

Years ago, unless I'm mistaken, I remember taking Alma School allll the way up from the East Valley. Did they realign the road within the last 10 years? I couldn't find it in the plat maps.

Now they got themselves a nifty website. www.pppatio.com. Anyone up for steak?

[Vicelord John]

It's on Alma School and Jomax, and no they didn't realign the roads. Alma School has never gone all the way from east valley to Scottsdale.

[Kroney]

Another off topic post....but worthy of mentioning.

I stop by the Pinnacle Peak Patio every so often to get my kegs filled. The Sonoran Brewery (not to be confused with the Sonora Brewhouse on 3rd St. & Camelback) operates there. The Burning Bird Pale Ale is one of my favorites. The owner, Scott Yarosh, apparently accepts volunteers to work at the brewery. I've never actually taken him up on that offer, but I will the next time I summon the courage to call in sick to work. I'm pretty sure one would be rewarded with free pints at the end of the day.

According to the Sonoran website (http://www.sonoranbrewing.com/sonoranbrewing.htm), one of their brews is on tap at Cheuvront Wine Bar.

[Don B.]

I was just up in that area yesterday taking photos of a house for a listing agent. A little too far north of the 101 for my taste. :)

(I had just come down from Prescott for the day to run a few errands - I'm living and working in Prescott for the summer).

--don

[InfillJunkie]

So they demolished Pioneer Park already? And when does the rest of the demolition begin??? Any timelines? Photos???

[HooverDam]

So they demolished Pioneer Park already? And when does the rest of the demolition begin??? Any timelines? Photos???

I assume you mean Patriots Square Park, and no, the demo on that wont begin until September

[ASUguy51]

The most important place for ASU students is Chipotle bar none so I hope they put one in dt phoenix near the campus. I think every student I know is addicted. Qdoba cant touch it! My friends went crazy when they heard they were opening one somewhere on campus in tempe!

[DevdogAZ]

The most important place for ASU students is Chipotle bar none so I hope they put one in dt phoenix near the campus. I think every student I know is addicted. Qdoba cant touch it! My friends went crazy when they heard they were opening one somewhere on campus in tempe!

That's interesting that you say every student you know is addicted to Chipotle, when there isn't even one anywhere in Tempe. They have announced that there will be one at Tempe Marketplace, but that's still a ways from opening, and it won't be that close to campus.

And it's interesting that you compare it to Qdoba, which only has 3 stores in Arizona, none of which are close to Tempe.

[HooverDam]

That's interesting that you say every student you know is addicted to Chipotle, when there isn't even one anywhere in Tempe. They have announced that there will be one at Tempe Marketplace, but that's still a ways from opening, and it won't be that close to campus.

And it's interesting that you compare it to Qdoba, which only has 3 stores in Arizona, none of which are close to Tempe.

All of my friends are 18-25 and it is true, the Chipoltle addiction runs wild in the youth of Arizona.

[DevdogAZ]

All of my friends are 18-25 and it is true, the Chipoltle addiction runs wild in the youth of Arizona.

Hey, I love Chipotle as much as the next guy, but I just think he's overstating ASU students' love for them, since there isn't even one anywhere close.

[PHX NATIVE 929]

:previous:

You are forgetting that ASU is a commuter school.

[ASUguy51]

Oh yeah thats right it is Tempe marketplace. Still better than nothing.

[Vicelord John]

That's interesting that you say every student you know is addicted to Chipotle, when there isn't even one anywhere in Tempe. They have announced that there will be one at Tempe Marketplace, but that's still a ways from opening, and it won't be that close to campus.

And it's interesting that you compare it to Qdoba, which only has 3 stores in Arizona, none of which are close to Tempe.

wow talk about negative nancy. Why would you argue about such a dumb thing?:haha:

[DevdogAZ]

wow talk about negative nancy. Why would you argue about such a dumb thing?:haha:

Coming from you, that's gotta be sarcastic.

;)

[andrewkfromaz]

ASUGuy is right though, I know people who drove from campus to the Indian School and Scottdale Rd. location (or wherever it is), so actually having a Chipotle IN NORTH TEMPE is big news, no matter where it is. I wonder what the best bus route to Tempe Marketplace from campus area is. No matter, most visitors to the mall will drive.
Archdevil, remember the hype surrounding In'N'Out at Rural off the 202? Man, that place is overrated like nothing else. Maybe they need one of those in CityScape.

[combusean]

Does an urban In-and-Out exist? It seems they all follow a standard template with the parking lot, store, crossed-palm trees in front, etc.

[HooverDam]

Does an urban In-and-Out exist? It seems they all follow a standard template with the parking lot, store, crossed-palm trees in front, etc.

I don't think so, same situation w/ Sonic since its completely based around the car theme. Which is too bad, I'd love to see both a Sonic and In-N-Out in downtown (7-7th, I-10 to Lincoln) somewhere, but also have it be somewhat urban.

[pbenjamin]

Does an urban In-and-Out exist? It seems they all follow a standard template with the parking lot, store, crossed-palm trees in front, etc.

The closest thing I know of is a Fisherman's Wharf location.

http://www.in-n-out.com/images_stores/store_154.jpg

[pbenjamin]

I don't think so, same situation w/ Sonic since its completely based around the car theme. Which is too bad, I'd love to see both a Sonic and In-N-Out in downtown (7-7th, I-10 to Lincoln) somewhere, but also have it be somewhat urban.

Just slightly out of that box is the Sonic at 9th St and McDowell.