Phoenix CityScape Thread

[Vicelord John]

I'm hoping for a Sullivan's...

[Kroney]

The invitation said you need to RSVP by October 17th. I'm not sure if you could walk in without being on the list.

I just walked in. I showed up right before the Mayor spoke. Here's my take on the ceremony:

The good:
1) Free beer. I had a Sam Adams.
2) PF Changs catered the event with some appetizers.
3) Some of the recently discovered artifacts from the site were on display.
4) It was kind of cool to stand 20 feet from Jerry Colangelo.

The bad:
1) I didn't learn anything new. This forum has spoiled me.
2) I was kind of hoping they'd have some sort of miniature replica of the site.

Oh well. I'm excited this is underway.

[gymratmanaz]

When do we get the facts????? Will they be in the paper tomorrow or must we wait for our God, HX_Guy, to come down from the mount with the two tablets that have schematics and stats chiseled into them?

[HX_Guy]

The article from The Business Journal pretty much sums the groundbreaking party up. Really there was nothing new announced that we didn't know already, aside from them starting construction in 3 weeks. They didn't give out any specs on floors or heights. I have a feeling they are not set in stone yet, at least not for the hotel/condo tower.

They did a very well job with the whole event. There were over 600 people there and was pretty "star studded", at least with local well knowns. As mentioned, Jerry Colangelo was there, Pat McMahon was the presenter, and I saw Al McCoy of the Phoenix Suns walking around. The renderings were on huge banners, probably 20' in height setup to give an actual impression that you were on the street looking at the project. It worked pretty well to give that illusion.

To sort of recap, before all the photos...


- They have reduced the number of floors on the main tower. The rendering shows 38 floors, but I was told it will be 35 floors, making it even shorter. The main reason seems to be they wanted to reduce the number of condos as they don't feel there are enough potential buyers in the market for 2-3 bedroom luxury condos.

- The official groundbreaking was today, October 22nd, at 4:30 PM. Actual construction starts in November, about 3 weeks from now

- Wachovia is anchoring the office tower (which seems to be 26 stories from the rendering)

- Kimpton hotel, called The Palomer is going in the main tower, with residential condos above

- The main tower will have only 2-3 bedroom condos, which means expensive $$$

- The third tower planned, on the southern part of the eastern most block, will contain a TWELVE hotel, a signature restaurant, and an additional 30,000 sq ft of retail

- Three towers will all go up at once. The Wachovia tower and Patriot's block will start first, while the main tower and a third tower on the eastern block will start around mid 2008, while the Wachovia tower is still going up

- The fourth tower isn't planned to be under construction until 2010




http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/CityScapeOct22/4.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/CityScapeOct22/5.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/CityScapeOct22/6.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/CityScapeOct22/7.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/CityScapeOct22/10.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/CityScapeOct22/8.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/CityScapeOct22/9.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/CityScapeOct22/1.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/CityScapeOct22/2.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/CityScapeOct22/3.jpg

[Azndragon837]

Comments (short and simple):

1) Condominium towers: Striking. I love the bold architecture and the balconies that pop out. The "spires" seems to blend modern with gothic.

2) Wachovia Tower: Another CPE? It has a slight similarity to CPE: big, glassy and boxy :-)

3) The AJs Fine Foods store should have an opening onto Central as well, but I like the glass and openess.

4) Patriot's Park: The photo with the oval fountains in the middle (and kids playing), bounded by tree-lined grassy lawns. I like it, but again, I would rather have a bigger park.

5) More street frontage (agreeing with HX Guy when we chatted earlier)

6) More skyscrapers for downtown, yay!


-Andrew

[loftlovr]

HX_Guy you rule!!!

[HooverDam]

Wow, I love the look of the condo towers Azndragon had it right, kind of a gothic feel to them. Did they mention height or floors on those?

I'm bummed to hear about the main tower being reduced, I was pumped for a new tallest, ah well.

Thanks HX_Guy

Is that random iPhone ad an indication of something. Has Apple been announced as a retailer. :shrug:

Doubtful, they were probably just going from something that symbolized urban, hip, chic, whatever, and at the moment, an iPhone fits the bill.

[andrewkfromaz]

Oy, I'm confused. Planning major, need site plan.
Too bad about the condo tower. Did they show any rationale regarding the size of the condo units? It just doesn't make a lot of sense.
Everything else looks pretty exciting. Can't wait for more details on the retail tenants.

[fenix85]

Is that random iPhone ad an indication of something. Has Apple been announced as a retailer. :shrug:

[tempedude]

wow...Cityscape is looking pretty cool. Looks like there will not be a new tallest yet. But, gone will be that crapy park and two nasty old parking lots, replaced by some shiny new towers and adding density downtown. :dancing:

Thanks HX guy you rule :yes:

[somethingfast]

I'm liking this even though it looks like no new tallest for DT??? Can anyone confirm plat height for sure? It would be a shame to not have a new tallest but this project looks very Pacific Rim to me which is way cool.

[Kroney]

Yes. HX_Guy, you do rule. Very good description & photos. Thank you.

BTW, I think I saw you. I think I stepped in front of you (unintentionally) as you were about to take a picture of one of the banners. Were you wearing a red shirt? I commented to my wife afterwards that the picture would wind up on the forum. Sure enough, it was there when I logged in this morning.

[HX_Guy]

Yea, that was me in the red shirt and black pants.

[HX_Guy]

Check out the release from CityScape with all the details covering all three phases:

http://cityscape.waittdesign.com/post/sections/homepage/files/FINALCityScapeProjectAnnouncement10072.pdf

I like the fact that there will be 65 apartments for rent, and at market rate. I also like the names of both towers, One South Central and One East Washington...it sounds very "city like". :D

Phase III, which is the last of the 4 towers, is "based on market conditions" which we sort of figured already, is last on the list. It may not happen, unless the rest is a total success and there is great demand...but even if it doesn't, it looks like we should at least get 3 towers for sure.

[PHX31]

- They have reduced the number of floors on the main tower. The rendering shows 38 floors, but I was told it will be 35 floors, making it even shorter. The main reason seems to be they wanted to reduce the number of condos as they don't feel there are enough potential buyers in the market for 2-3 bedroom luxury condos.

- The official groundbreaking was today, October 22nd, at 4:30 PM. Actual construction starts in November, about 3 weeks from now

- Wachovia is anchoring the office tower (which seems to be 26 stories from the rendering)

- Kimpton hotel, called The Palomer is going in the main tower, with residential condos above

- The main tower will have only 2-3 bedroom condos, which means expensive $$$

- The third tower planned, on the southern part of the eastern most block, will contain a TWELVE hotel, a signature restaurant, and an additional 30,000 sq ft of retail

- Three towers will all go up at once. The Wachovia tower and Patriot's block will start first, while the main tower and a third tower on the eastern block will start around mid 2008, while the Wachovia tower is still going up

- The fourth tower isn't planned to be under construction until 2010




HX_Guy, thanks for all of the pics and information! :tup:

I'm very disappointed our new tallest won't come via CityScape. It's such an important block, right in the center of it all. It would make the skyline that much more appealing. I don't even know where a new tallest would go in the future, anyone know? About the best location would be on the 1/2 block north of Central Park East. That would again push our tallest downtown to the northern edge rather than the center (making our skyline again like Seattle, rather than a more symmetrical LA). Anywhere else and the FAA would get involved, or it would be separated from downtown too much.

Is there a reason the Wachovia tower and one of the hotels couldn't take up the main tower and make it a new tallest? (ie, a mixed use office/hotel building, rather than a mixed use hotel/residential building - which is now scaled down).

Wasn't there some sort of stipulation spelling out the number of condos and such that they had to build in order to get their city incentives? How is this scaling back not affecting that? Are they still meeting their requirements?

[loftlovr]

I grabbed a few extra Kontakt magazines in case anyone wants one-
Don't know when I'll be able to get it to ya-
It's a cool holograph image of PSP/ Cityscape.
Very cool....

[combusean]

So I spoke with a higherup at RED while at the reception and he had confirmed what I had suspected, that the FAA denial was a rubberstamp by some Alaska-based bureaucrat...evidently they had spent about 4 days trying to track him down to discuss it.

What I heard from that same guy at RED (not who HX spoke with) was that it seemed like they intend to build at 515' given that they'd have to amend the site plan, their "contract", with Phoenix's Development Services Department. I specifically asked if they were going to build a new tallest and he said "Yes!" so who knows.

One thing that's biting them that they didn't anticipate--they need variances for the project which looks like their agenda for the next 30 days.

Z|Gallerie is interested in leasing there.

[tempedude]

^right on...very cool :slob:

[PHX31]

Bingo Bango... That's some refreshing investigative reporting Comusean, thanks.

The logical thing seems to build a new tallest. Unless they don't want to present any plans that go against current restrictions (ie, don't want to tell everyone they are planning on building a new tallest while this FAA issue is still outstanding and the current site plan shows the shorter plans), I don't understand why "A New Tallest Building in Phoenix" wouldn't be one of the highlights and bullet points of any CityScape promotion. Is height that taboo in Phoenix?

[HX_Guy]

Is there a reason the Wachovia tower and one of the hotels couldn't take up the main tower and make it a new tallest? (ie, a mixed use office/hotel building, rather than a mixed use hotel/residential building - which is now scaled down).

A mixed condo/office/hotel tower would have been way too tall to ever get approval. If the current plans calls for a 38 story and a 26 story tower, combining the two would mean a tower around 800 ft, something that would never fly in that spot.



Wasn't there some sort of stipulation spelling out the number of condos and such that they had to build in order to get their city incentives? How is this scaling back not affecting that? Are they still meeting their requirements?

The developers are only required to build 500 residential units in order to get the city incentives. Here is the exact wording...

The Developer must finance and construct: a 2,500-space underground parking structure under Blocks 22 and 23; repairs and upgrade the Patriot's Square Garage; 220,000 gross leasable square feet of retail/restaurant space on Blocks 22, 23 and 77; a high-rise tower on Block 23 including approximately 500 residential units and a 150-room boutique hotel; the redevelopment of Patriot's Square Park subject to a redevelopment plan approved by the Parks and Recreation Board; plaza and open space on Blocks 22 and 23; and appropriate streetscape improvements.

On completion the City will: purchase the Block 22/23 parking structure for approximately $72.5 million; reimburse up to $13,945,000 for improvements to the Patriot's Square Garage; and reimburse up to $2.475 million for streetscape improvements. The City will purchase approximately 500 above-grade parking spaces for $7.5 million if the parking spaces and approximately 30,000 square feet of retail space are constructed in Phase II on Block 23.

[CANUC]

Freaking awesome! I don’t really care all that much about the height issue and lets be honest with each other RED stated very early on that the towers would be roughly 400ft tall, it was this forum that started hedging bets that they would or should go taller. Maybe we talked ourselves into believing DT’s new tallest would come in from Cityscape. Anyways excited to see the pics and even more surprised that tower 3 will go up in phase II while the office tower is still rising, the skeptic in me thought two towers at the most. Hey, phase III is still open and could possibly have – a new tallest? Wishful thinking but the possibility is still there.

A couple of observations; someone asked about where a new tallest would go now that RED has announced the project heights of the first three buildings. My suggestion would be the current ASU Ramada dorms. About a two years ago there was a proposal for a 50 story tower on that very sight. The plans seemed to have been shelved but maybe it’s a location that’s still viable. Second since Wachovia will be a major tenant in the Cityscape office building that means OCPE is still the only Class A office building under development. With the recent talk of falling vacancy rates I wonder if we could still see yet one more office tower come online before Cityscape or OCPE reach completion.

[HX_Guy]

Yes, RED did say from the begining that the towers would be around 400' and we all hoped it would be more...but they also showed renderings with a 44 story tower, and at 44 stories, even all residential, it would mean right around 500'. Let's also not forget that they applied for 510' with the FAA so they have/had every intention to build a new tallest.

They have not released the final heights. I'm pretty certain they don't even have that part finalized yet, and with the condo/hotel tower not scheduled to start construction until mid 2008, they still have a lot of time to tweak things.

The Wachovia tower seems the most set right now. The rendering shows 26 floors, and their news release said Wachovia is taking 70,000 sq ft over 3 floors. That means roughly 23,333 sq ft per floors...the tower is 600,000 sq ft, or again, 26 floors. All the math adds up...and at 26 floors, it should put this at around 380', same as Central Park East.

[PHX31]

A mixed condo/office/hotel tower would have been way too tall to ever get approval. If the current plans calls for a 38 story and a 26 story tower, combining the two would mean a tower around 800 ft, something that would never fly in that spot.

[/i][/b]

I meant a mixed office/hotel only, no condos. That seems like it would be fairly tall, yet not too tall.

[Cranetastic]

I was a little shocked myself to see tower three be a part of phase II. That is pretty exciting. I also have never seen any renderings of tower three and four until now so thanks for those HX_Guy. I think they look really nice. I like the offsetting "crown" treatment. If we don't get a new tallest for Cityscape then I guess our next immediate hope would be for SWDG to get their 50 story residential towers going. That should be at least 500'. Generally I'd hope for a new tallest to be an office tower instead of a residential or hotel tower, but that's just me.

[sundevilgrad]

Wow! Those renderings are sweet, and we're getting a new tallest, and they're building 3 of the towers!

[HX_Guy]

Here is a new site plan I ran across. I had to retype the items and it's hard to make out details, but it gives a good idea of the placement of everything and relative size to each other.

http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/CityScapeOct22/12.jpg

I'm glad to see there is a substantial opening off of Jefferson and it's not walled off like in the original site plans. Also, the Palomar hotel/condo tower seems to be roughly the same footprint as 44 Monroe, about a 1/4 of the block, which I like. I was hoping it wouldn't be too wide.

[hi123]

So the palomar tower and the wachovia tower will be the first 2 towers to start construction right?

[HX_Guy]

Here is the timeline for the project:

As currently planned, the project will have three phases.
• Phase I (4th Quarter 2009) Construction to start in 3 weeks
o Class A office tower (Middle Block)
o +/- 200,000 square feet of retail (West & Middle Blocks)
o Apartments (West Block)
o The new Patriot’s Park
o Renovated Patriot’s Park parking garage (West Block)
o Underground parking (Middle Block)

• Phase II (2010) Construction to start mid 2008
o Mixed-use tower – residential condominiums and Hotel
Palomar (Middle Block)
o Mixed-use tower – TWELVE Hotel & Residences (East
Block)
o +/- 30,000 square feet of retail (East Block)
o Underground parking (East Block)

• Phase III (2011, based on market conditions) Constrution schedule unknown
o Residential condominium tower (East Block)
o +/- 30,000 square feet of retail (East Block)
o Above ground parking (Block 23)

[AZ KID]

Wow thanks HX Guy!!
I am so excited for Cityscape. It also looks like there will be plenty of trees (not palm trees.. yeah!!) scattered throughout it. Finally SHADE!!!!!

[Sonoran_Dweller]

This is great stuff!!! I am so excited!!!

We should not get too down if it does not become the new tallest. As long as we get more businesess, residents, and tourists downtown, then the job was done. I 'd rather have a busy 24-7 downtown with no highrises than the world tallest buildings with a dull, empty downtown. No matter what happens, downtown Phoenix wins- this will bring business, money, people, and a true city environment to Phoenix.

It is a great time to be a Downtown Phoenix aficionado!!!!!

[HX_Guy]

I agree with you Sonoran Dweller, it would just have been cool to get a new tallest and would have been great for the project itself. It would have given it that much more attention.

But like you mentioned, the main thing here is to bring residents, businesses, money, entertainment, etc to downtown and create a 24/7 environment...and really, the height of the building doesn't have all that much impact on this (aside of course from providing more units). There are plenty of empty lots downtown where the opportunity for a new tallest can happen. The fact that we are getting at least 3 towers for now is great news and better then most had hoped for at least.

[FortyAcres]

-Chipotle
-Gelato Spot
-Pop the Soda Shop (they only have one location currently, I don't know if they are looking to expand, but I'd love to have one downtown)
-Cereality (www.cereality.com)
-Manuels or some sort of Mexican (currently the only large Mexican places downtown are Mi Amigos and Matador)
-See's Candy, or some sort of candy store
-In'N'Out burger (it would have to have an urban design obviously)
-YCs Mongolian
-Hot Dog on a Stick
Non food/retail:
-Apple Store
-House of Hoops (new Nike/Footlocker store dedicated to basketball apparel, it could do well in our hoops crazed city)
-H&M and/or Buffalo Exchange
-Blockbuster/Hollywood video (there is nowhere downtown to rent movies) Anyway, there probably isn't room for all of those, especially since I listed a ton of eateries. Any places I didn't list that you'd like to see? Downtown currently lacks a lot in the way of retail, especially clothing, so hopefully Cityscape can fill that need.


nice list. Earlier in the thread, i was calling for an H&M too.

Since its fun to speculate, i'd like to see:

RETAIL/GROCERY
H&M
Retail Labratory
Barney's
Barnes & Noble (i can't stand the layout of Borders)
Apple
AJ's
Blockbuster

RESTAURANTS/CAFES
Asia de Cuba
PF Chang's
A Sam Richardson Argentine Steakhouse concept
Salt Lick BBQ (http://www.saltlickbbq.com/)
Alamo Draft House (http://www.drafthouse.com/)
Lebanese, Ethiopian, Thai or other unique ethnic boutique restaurant
Coffee Plantation
Cereality (solid idea, Hoover .. and its local)

BARS
A f'ing decent sports bar (yes Majerle's is shite -- maybe a Half Moon)
Rooftop/basement speakeasy type bar (like Monroe's used to be like)
A rooftop wine bar or Barcelona concept (cougars!)
A country/juke box bar (TT Roadhouse/Rogue people?)

I'm from Austin, and downtown, 6th/5th/4th street, and the warehouse district all have rooftop drinking ... especially since its smoke-free too. People like to have a GD cocktail on the roof, DO THIS!!


I know this is waaaay more than there is room, but dreaming's free.

[PhxSprawler]

:previous: I would like to add something speculative that is missing from the area - furniture stores.

Ikea is so far away. The city needs a West Elm, maybe a Williams Sonoma, and maybe a consignment store... or some similar variation of the above.

[HX_Guy]

How about a Pier 1? They have nice furniture at decent prices and it's pretty chic, I could see it in an urban environment.

[andrewkfromaz]

I know this is waaaay more than there is room, but dreaming's free.
Interesting point. Kierland Commons has a total of 438,000 sq feet of gross leasable area according to Wikipedia.
The SuperTarget at Christown mall consists of 173,900 sq feet.
The Crate and Barrel at Scottsdale Fashion is 35,111 sq feet.
Something to compare.

[HX_Guy]

...and Phase I of CityScape will have 200,000 sq ft of retail of which PF Chang's is taking 8,000 sq ft and AJs is taking 10,000-15,000. That leaves 177,000 sq ft, which is a decent amount. It all depends on who the retailers will be...they could fit as few as 5 or as many as 20+ Im sure.

[kaneui]

Interesting updated design for CityScape...a very respectable project, but unfortunate it won't have an iconic signature tower as a "new tallest". However, Phoenix shouldn't be disappointed--this looks to be pretty sleek and sophisticated architecture that will significantly enhance the urban core.

If the two condo towers on the east block will have 1,000 units, they will be pretty massive, as I counted about 36 or 37 stories on one of the towers in the renderings (taller than 44 Monroe, perhaps?). That's a lot of units...for comparison, a large new 39-story condo tower just topped out here in downtown Honolulu, with less than 400 units (www.capitolplace.com).

(FYI, that building also has many two and three-bedrooms, with most units between 650 and 1450 sq. ft., priced from about $400k to over $1M--about $625-825/s.f. That's Hawaii for you...and only 25 units remaining.)

[PHX NATIVE 929]

Don't count on Pier 1. They are not in expansion mode right now.

The challenge for RED will be that retailers know what works in metro Phoenix... large bix-box anchored centers.... Target or Wal-Mart plus other soft goods users such as Ross, Linens N Things, Old Navy, etc... Like it or not, this is a proven format that has continually WORKED.

Cityscape is a bit of an experiment (in Phoenix). It will take some brave retailers willing to take a risk. Make no mistake, this project is a risk for retailers. Fortunately, RED is a developer that knows what they are doing and having AJ's already in the bag is HUGE. It should convince some of the tenants that typically align themselves with grocery-anchored centers.

Some tenants I wouldn't be shocked to see land at Cityscape:

Office Max or Staples
Best Buy or Circuit City
Ace Hardware
Barnes, Borders, or Changing Hands
V's Barbershop
Payless Shoes
Victoria's Secret
Hi Health
Jamba Juice
Nail Salon
Workout Facility
Tanning Salon
Bath & Body Works
Sally Beauty Supply
T-Mobile
Hallmark
Chipotle
EB Game/Gamestop
Massage Envy
CPK

[tempedude]

I was wondering if there might be room for an arts(alternative) movie theater...something similar to the 'Valley Art' on Mill Ave. If not a theater like that at Cityscape...I think that the Jackson St. Entertainment District would be a perfect location to put one.

[kevininlb]

A nice summation of CityScape from the Republic. Think this pretty much says it all:

A big change is on the way
Oct. 24, 2007 12:00 AM

As downtown Phoenix has learned painfully over the last several decades, no single project has ever constitutes a "magic bullet."

No single development, however grand, can turn a sleepy downtown into a lively destination. Not by itself.

And so CityScape, a mixed-use development representing the largest private investment in downtown Phoenix in a generation, is not the endgame in the central city's revolution.

But what a catalyst it is. In the heart of downtown.

On Monday, CityScape's development partners, future tenants and city officials broke ground on the three-block project between First Avenue and Second Street and Washington and Jefferson streets.

Construction on the first phase of the $900 million development is under way. The first part of this project is planned to open in late 2009. The entire project is scheduled for completion in 2011.

Much attention has been lavished on the CityScape details: its restaurants; its two luxury boutique hotels (Twelve and Hotel Palomar) and its parklike, pedestrian-friendly features. And then there is the fact that the project will feature a grocery store, AJ's Fine Foods. Downtown has not seen a supermarket in many, many years.

The market for Class A office space downtown is hot right now. Rates are rising fast. And so the 600,000 square feet of first-class office space that will be provided by RED Development of Scottsdale and its partners looks like a wise investment. Wachovia's plans to locate its regional headquarters at CityScape is a strong statement.

Broadly speaking, downtown Phoenix is not lacking for tall office buildings. It is lacking an infusion of people living and playing downtown, which is why the supermarket, restaurants, residences and the two hotels that CityScape will bring so intrigues downtown watchers. They suggest a downtown marketplace that would operate 24/7.

That is the substantial difference that one project like CityScape makes for downtown. It doesn't change everything. But it changes a lot.

[atl2phx]

i'm stoked to see city place turn dirt - great project for central phoenix!

i assume this image represents the novare condo's/TWELVE hotel component of the project? anyone know for sure? if yes, these are the nicest looking novare renderings yet. additionally, novare projects typically look much better finished than rendered - nice job!
http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/CityScapeOct22/5.jpg

based on the image above and the site plan below, i don't see 500 condo units and a 150 TWELVE key hotel in one building and another 500 units in the second building - unless they're all studio or 1/1's.
http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/CityScapeOct22/12.jpg

novare's website/cityplace page http://www.novaregroup.com/portfolio_twelve_phoenix.html only speaks to 500 condo units 150 hotel rooms.

[shawneriksmith]

The challenge for RED will be that retailers know what works in metro Phoenix... large bix-box anchored centers.... Target or Wal-Mart plus other soft goods users such as Ross, Linens N Things, Old Navy, etc... Like it or not, this is a proven format that has continually WORKED.
CPK

I have heard this argument several times before on various threads. Not that I will disagree with the fact that traditional big-box anchor stores have worked here in the Valley (as almost every other place in USA), but that doesn't preclude that less traditional retailers won't work. Just because people shop at Target or WalMart doesn't mean that they won't shop at lesser known stores.

If I were Cityscape with all that retail space, I would shoot for a couple of traditional big retail stores mixed in with some lesser known stores here in the Valley. I know if they were to get an H&M that my wife would be Downtown everyday, plus H&M has done well in urban settings throughout the USA. But, to create a more vibrant atmosphere, they should mix in some smaller stores that are not yet present in the Valley, or at least not present at every single mall in the Valley.

[HX_Guy]

i'm stoked to see city place turn dirt - great project for central phoenix!

i assume this image represents the novare condo's/TWELVE hotel component of the project? anyone know for sure? if yes, these are the nicest looking novare renderings yet. additionally, novare projects typically look much better finished than rendered - nice job!

Yes, that is the Novare part of the project. The reason they only show one tower on their website is because the second tower (which is actually the 4th in the whole project) is "based on market conidition". They may build it, they may not...so they didn't list it. The TWELVE/condo tower is a go and will start construction mid 2008.

[atl2phx]

Yes, that is the Novare part of the project. The reason they only show one tower on their website is because the second tower (which is actually the 4th in the whole project) is "based on market conidition". They may build it, they may not...so they didn't list it. The TWELVE/condo tower is a go and will start construction mid 2008.

thanks. is tower 1 still planned for 500 units and 150 TWELVE rooms? the rendering doesn't look like it would accomodate that many units.

[Vicelord John]

Stores that typically flock to urban environments:

Apple - likely
J.Crew - likely
McDonalds - likely
Borders - likely
Urban Outfitters - not likely
FYE - likely
Lawry's - not likely
Armani Exchange - not gonna happen

[HX_Guy]

thanks. is tower 1 still planned for 500 units and 150 TWELVE rooms? the rendering doesn't look like it would accomodate that many units.

Yes, it is supposed to be 500 residential units and 150 hotel rooms.

The tower will be only 1 and 2 bedroom condo units and it seems to be pretty wide so I'm sure it's possible to cram off of those in there, especially since all the parking will be below grade.

[HX_Guy]

Stores that typically flock to urban environments:

Apple - likely
J.Crew - likely
McDonalds - likely
Borders - likely
Urban Outfitters - not likely
FYE - likely
Lawry's - not likely
Armani Exchange - not gonna happen

Add Apple to the "not gonna happen" list. The location at the Biltmore is too close to downtown for another store.

If there is to be another Apple store opening, I think it would be somewhere in NE Phoenix at CityNorth or one of those projects up there.

[PhxSprawler]

Stores that typically flock to urban environments:

Apple - likely
J.Crew - likely
McDonalds - likely
Borders - likely
Urban Outfitters - not likely
FYE - likely
Lawry's - not likely
Armani Exchange - not gonna happen

...and we can always count on Starbucks.

What kind of nightlife do you think will be there? Piano Bar, Irish Pub? Restaurant/Hotel bars (:yuck: )? Hopefully it will be something that stays open later than 10:30 p.m.

[Vicelord John]

Add Apple to the "not gonna happen" list. The location at the Biltmore is too close to downtown for another store.

If there is to be another Apple store opening, I think it would be somewhere in NE Phoenix at CityNorth or one of those projects up there.

I think with the coming jobs and residences, it is very likely. Market forces are in its favor.

As for night life, generic shyte isn't out of the question. I'd not be surprised to see an applebees/rock bottom/fridays concept.

[HX_Guy]

With all the residential units that will be coming online at the same time, 700 units in CityScape alone, I think places staying open later will be a definite...although past 10:00 or 11:00 PM might not happen, unless it's a bar. Restaurants usually close at 10:00 or 11:00 all over the suburbs now.

Between CityScape with 700 units, 44 Monroe with 200 units, and Summit at Copper Square with 150 units...we'll have over 1000 new residential units right in the core. This of course isn't counting another potential 700+ units from Phase III of CityScape and Omega, if they happen.
CityScape is the most attractive I think, with the grocery store an elevator ride away...plus the restaurants and other items...but this project will help the sales of other projects in the downtown core, offering them a local grocery store and all the other amenities.

As you can tell, I can't wait! :D

[atl2phx]

Yes, it is supposed to be 500 residential units and 150 hotel rooms.

The tower will be only 1 and 2 bedroom condo units and it seems to be pretty wide so I'm sure it's possible to cram off of those in there, especially since all the parking will be below grade.

AH! that's what i was missing. below grade parking is atypical of novare projects. nice. :tup:

[kevininlb]

I think with the coming jobs and residences, it is very likely. Market forces are in its favor.

As for night life, generic shyte isn't out of the question. I'd not be surprised to see an applebees/rock bottom/fridays concept.

Generic shit is what's going to get most people out of their condos and hotel rooms. Places like Rockbottom draw crowds. For me, I'd be beyond happy to have something like that there. Lived in Long Beach for years and for most of that time Rockbottom was always crowded even in the years when dt Long Beach was dead (and sort of scary).

[tempedude]

personally...if a microbrewery locates at Cityscape, I would like to see something like FourPeaks...

[andrewkfromaz]

An Apple store would be cool, but I don't see it happening. Apple would look for an NE Phx location, is my guess.
Hmm, how long ago did I claim this? I think the next Apple store will be in either CityNorth or Palisene, followed by cbd101 or another development out in Glendale sometime after 2009 or so.

I do think that none of us have recognized Cityscape's location in the heart of Phoenix central business district. I think Cityscape has a lot of appeal for lunch-hour restaurants, a copy shop, UPS Store, etc.
Also, I think retailers that cater to a slightly older set will be interested in coming to Cityscape. I think downtown or midtown needs a Restoration Hardware - ONE Phoenix, if they have enough room, should aggressively pursue these people as the gentrification of older homes continues to expand near downtown.
I think the Yard House could do well here, if they can't do even better in terms of a sports bar or brewery. Four Peaks would be really awesome.

I wonder when some AZ Center leases expire - getting NY Company and that katsina doll place out of there could really help energize the AZ Center, which I think is a little better positioned to capitalize on ASU and attract "younger" image retailers, besides likely being a little more affordable in terms of rents. I don't see a theater coming to Cityscape when the AZ Center AMC is rarely as busy as more suburban locations.
Cityscape has so far not really mentioned light rail as a major selling point for any of the features on the site. I think the effect of rail on the retail component will be especially interesting.

[NIXPHX77]

I was wondering if there might be room for an arts(alternative) movie theater...something similar to the 'Valley Art' on Mill Ave. If not a theater like that at Cityscape...I think that the Jackson St. Entertainment District would be a perfect location to put one.

i totally agree w/ you tempedude. i've been wondering about this for a while; why doesn't central Phx have such a specific arts theatre?
Where is Dan Harkins? he should be leading the charge on this.
it's very disappointing (i know amc az center sometimes shows films of this nature, but i'd like to see a theatre specifically and exclusively for this genre.)

[soleri]

I don't know anything about movie theater economics but Harkins was in the running at Arizona Center for their cineplex. As I recall they proposed a 10-screen theater that was outbid by AMC much larger complex. There was never a guarantee, of course, that Harkins would've reserved any of the screens for art/foreign films.

Because those kind of movies are usually not "blockbusters", they're often assigned to lower-cost locations. The Camelview in Scottsdale has been around for over 30 years now and does a good job with some of the more popular indie fare. Sadly, the Cornerstone in Tempe had more screens before it gave up its lease to a gym. Metro Phoenix had a much wider array of films to sample from when Harkins was there.

Another missed opportunity was the AMC at Town & Country. There were only five screens but that would have been ideal for indies. The owners gave the space to a gym when AMC left. But T&C is doomed anyway so that would have been a short-term boon in any event.

The downtown game plan involves "family fun", which means mainstreaming most retail and entertainment. I suspect even Jackson Street will define itself in this way. Of course, that's a legitimate market but downtown ought to aspire to more than that. It could also be the place where arty, smart and stylish people go. If that were the case, the Ozzie-and-Harriett crowd would be drawn in their wake since trendsetters have that kind of power. I sometimes think downtown is haunted by the spirit of Paul Johnson.

I'm not sure downtown will ever compete with easy-parking meccas like Tempe Marketplace or Kierland Commons. There needs to be good reasons to go downtown since it involves more difficulty with transportation. The AMC megaplex at Arizona Center is one of the chain's lowest performers for that reason. But unique retail and entertainment can cross that threshold. There's an obvious problem, however, in trying to make it all pencil out in advance. "Unique" by its very nature means untested and usually marginal. Yet it's only the unusual retailers and restaurants that can give an area cachet.

Chicken and egg, chicken and egg, chicken and egg. There's no way to solve that conundrum with planning but it would help if we at least acknowledged the problem now and then.

[Phxbyrd211]

I totally agree that what we are getting is WAY better than what we have got but I have some definite dissapointments about the overall project. I think there's no excuse for the FIRST tower built to have not less than 515 feet. I think they will get past the FAA with city backing and a little effort. I understand the condo market is not good but the hotel and office market is good so why not but the Palomar on top of the Wachovia tower and become Phoenix's new tallest building in phase one. That building, the park space and the retail are a no-brainer for profitability. Then for your next building you can combine the twelve hotel and your large luxury condos with perhaps more retail to leave you with the current 36 story tower design and two tall money making buildings. By then the housing market has returned and there's no problem selling those last two condo projects, one of which could have an office or market rate apartment component. In the end, no building in the project should be under 400 feet. The retail and apartment components are also short changed as they were supposed to be as tall as 6 stories rather than 2-3.

My hope is that the improving market leads the developers to increase their plans for the final block.

[andrewkfromaz]

Soleri, I think Phoenix has a few developers who are willing to take substantial risks and attract truly unique tenants; unfortunately, those developers are relegated to either the ultra high end (Fred Unger in Scottsdale, small boutiques throughout the valley) or the fringe of the inner-ring suburbs, where development has a much lower cost (Welcome Diner, Melrose and 7th Ave area, ect.)

I don't think the "family fun" plan will really take off in downtown. The schools and other family-oriented amenities currently don't compete, so I think developers are going to have a hard time attracting families to buy homes downtown, which isn't going to bring in a lot of family oriented retail, which is going to further deter families from buying downtown, which is going to.... I think it is possible to have things that attract families (Children's Museum, Science Center, etc.) downtown while still having a downtown that has a life after 9 PM. Really only a few uses conflict - Castle Megastore or Fascinations-type adult boutiques/bookstores, and these are pretty much illegal due to zoning restrictions anyway.

[atl2phx]

it may be best for cityscape to go for destination establishments that aren't local, but not quite national. maybe regional LAX or NYC establishments that are looking to establish secondary outposts. a few that come to mind:

geisha house from LAX
dolce, LAX
ten pin alley, LAX
craft, NYC
butter, NYC

[HooverDam]

I've often loathed the lack of an ArtHouse (and/or Grindhouse) theater in downtown Phoenix. I'd love to have something like L.A.'s New Beverly Cinema: http://www.newbevcinema.com

I think something like that would do really well in the Roosevelt Row/First Fridays area.

Once I win the lottery (or some long lost millionaire grandfather I never met dies), I'd love to build something like that.

EDIT: VVV I believe something like that was mentioned. I even recall reading somewhere that it might be a Sundance Cinema: http://www.sundancecinemas.com, though who knows.

[scottkag]

Didn't one of the fluff pieces about Jackson Street Entertainment District (I'm thinking Contact Magazine) mention an Art House Theater? The Jackson St. project still seems to be shrouded in mystery - when is the promised big announcement going to be?

[FortyAcres]

apparently y'all skipped over this part of my post re: movie theatres worthy of cityscape. http://www.drafthouse.com/

This the kind of coup that would bring people from ALL OVER the valley downtown. If you've never enjoyed a movie experience like this, i promise you would never go back to traditional format afterwards.

[Vicelord John]

western themed beer movies? IN

[FortyAcres]

western themed beer movies? IN

They show feature length, first run movies too. They have a ricockulously superb menu and beer list, check it out.

[Locofresh55]

When I was stationed in San Antonio I went to the Alamo Drafthouse there and I must say they had some killer food there and it was kinda cool that you just wrote down what you wanted and they would bring it in without really disturbing you and you pay at the end of the movie. The Alamo Drafthouse in San Antonio was great and pretty good prices. The theater that was there before was ghetto as hell so definitely an upgrade.:tup:

[kevininlb]

Think I agree with this, from today's Republic:

CityScape needs to provide the public with grand entrance
Oct. 25, 2007 12:00 AM

There's a huge flaw in the design for CityScape in downtown Phoenix that demands a correction. It doesn't matter that ground was broken this week. There's plenty of time. The unconscionable flaw is public access. There should be a grand entrance at the northwest corner - one that welcomes the public and conveys this message: The interior open space is public and not a private, limited-access amenity for office and retail. If that requires redesigning a building, so be it.

- Joel Nilsson, editorial writer

[Don B.]

Why don't we band together and franchise a Alamo Drafthouse for downtown Phoenix? :D

Imagine how cool that would be.

http://www.drafthouse.com/franchise/index.html

HOW TO GET STARTED

Currently we are franchising in select areas pursuant to multi-unit development agreements.

Qualifications

* A minimum of 5-7 years theater or restaurant experience in a leadership role

* A minimum net worth of $750,000 (exclusive of personal residence and property) and liquid assets of $360,000.

* Prior theater experience or multi-unit franchise experience as owner/operator

* The resources and capability to open, own and operate 6-12 locations in 3-5 years

* Highly motivated to operate within the demands of the Alamo Drafthouse Cinemas® concept

* Prior real estate development experience in the territory you are interested in developing

* The applicant group may consist of up to five individuals and may not be a publicly traded company.

* The designated operator must have at least a 10% ownership stake in the applicant group.

--don

[combusean]

^ I got $50 on it.

[Vicelord John]

those are some pretty steep requirements.

[somethingfast]

I got about $20k from a defunct mortgage company left over! I would LOVE to be involved in this :slob:

[Archdevil]

Think I agree with this, from today's Republic:

CityScape needs to provide the public with grand entrance
Oct. 25, 2007 12:00 AM

There's a huge flaw in the design for CityScape in downtown Phoenix that demands a correction. It doesn't matter that ground was broken this week. There's plenty of time. The unconscionable flaw is public access. There should be a grand entrance at the northwest corner - one that welcomes the public and conveys this message: The interior open space is public and not a private, limited-access amenity for office and retail. If that requires redesigning a building, so be it.

- Joel Nilsson, editorial writer

I disagree! Really who would this apply to? Bums? Protestors? Is anyone going to shy away from entering a park that is surrounded by retail? I don't think they need to put some grand entrance that says "Public", seems obvious to me. This Joel Nilsson sounds like one of the people that were originaly against this project to begin with, just trying to stir up trouble again.

[kevininlb]

I disagree! Really who would this apply to? Bums? Protestors? Is anyone going to shy away from entering a park that is surrounded by retail? I don't think they need to put some grand entrance that says "Public", seems obvious to me. This Joel Nilsson sounds like one of the people that were originaly against this project to begin with, just trying to stir up trouble again.

There are plenty of failed ideas around town where open areas for the public are blocked from view or aren't clearly open areas. I think this guy is making a very valid point. Why not tweak the design, while there's still time, to ensure the space is clearly open to all? I've mentioned this a while back, but I lived in NYC for a long time and there are a bunch of plazas (especially along 3rd avenue) that, in the 1970s, were designed to be open spaces where people would walk around, sit and eat lunch. Most of these spaces, while nice, sit empty because the spaces are blocked by walls that people just walk past.

I love CityScape and I'm totally excited by it. I do think some tweaks to the design would ensure it lives up to its promise, though.

[Phxbyrd211]

They can certainly improve the entrances devil, there's plenty of room for that. Why wouldn't you want them to try?

[andrewkfromaz]

I disagree! Really who would this apply to? Bums? Protestors? Is anyone going to shy away from entering a park that is surrounded by retail? I don't think they need to put some grand entrance that says "Public", seems obvious to me. This Joel Nilsson sounds like one of the people that were originaly against this project to begin with, just trying to stir up trouble again.
Look at the AZ Center! The open space is incredibly underused, except for lunch hours at Snell & Wilmer. Cityscape not only needs better access to "Patriot's Square Park" but it also could use some better amenities on the human scale. Forget concerts and other events.
A - when is that ever going to happen, the Parks Dept. never held anything at the old park
B - Margaret T Hance has a lot more space for events, why don't they add amenities for events there, or even better, at Indian School Steele park?
C - spaces that are too big and go underused are toxic. That is the problem at every other park/open space in downtown. AZ Center, old Patriot's Square, Hance Park, they all are havens for bums to the exclusion of everyone else. Downtown just does not have the number of people to keep open spaces full enough to make them enjoyable.

If RED and the parks department revisit the design for Patriot's Square, (which they very much should consider doing) they need to come up with ways to increase the intensity of activity around the open space, even if they have to add outdoor dining space, open roadways through the site, or otherwise decrease the plaza space. I'd rather have a smaller space that is busier than a large barren wasteland, a la the AZ Center.

[tempedude]

What if we invite artists to design large works of art for some of the open spaces in the new Patriots Square Park? More specifically, what if Native American artists from our region were invited to create artwork for Cityscape ... art celebrating life in the Southwest and the Sonoran Desert? Something like what soleri suggested in another thread.

soleri said,
"...we are the only major city that's located in the Sonoran ecosystem.... Now, most of us are of two minds here about the desert. We love it up to a point. My idea here is that this ecosystem - the very thing we've done our best to tame and keep at bay - is also the most salient and potentially valuable thing about life in Arizona.
The Sonoran desert is, for some of us at least, one of the world's most glorious topographies. The variety of plant life, the geological formations, the fauna, the lushness and texture of all that are truly remarkable. We don't need to be embarrassed by it at all. Rather, we should capitalize on it.

Plinko's point that Papago Park already fulfills that function is valid but doesn't disqualify the idea that the forlorn environs of downtown could use some of that magic. I'm not exactly sure how it could be implemented or if it could be combined in some way with existing structures and landscaping. Maybe not. Again, I'm just thinking "out loud". My main point is that downtown is not going to succeed merely by filling up the vacant lots with tall buildings. We need to see downtown as a place so good that it shows our best side to tourists. It needs to be a place of unique and wonderful qualities. We're not going to do it like other downtowns with riverfront parks, harbors, gorgeous deco towers, or glorious public squares. We need to think of something else but equally valuable.

Think of downtown Phoenix as something you want to show off to visitors. What would rock their boats? What would make them say "this is so cool". It doesn't have to be the "desert". But it needs to be something"

Apologies in advance if I didn't handle this quote properly.

I just like the idea of having some art showcasing our heritage tastefully done on public display.

[HX_Guy]

Everyone keeps saying "while there is still time". Why do you assume there still is time? Construction is supposed to begin in 3 weeks, and the only reason that it delayed until then is because they are still waiting on variances and permits...permits and variances for designs already submitted. It would take quite a long time to redesign and start the permitting process all over again I'm sure.

[tempedude]

My thoughts were not redesign. More like I was just contemplating artistic touches and final polish for the design. I want the buildings and and overall appearance to be sleek and modern for sure.

[Archdevil]

Everyone keeps saying "while there is still time". Why do you assume there still is time? Construction is supposed to begin in 3 weeks, and the only reason that it delayed until then is because they are still waiting on variances and permits...permits and variances for designs already submitted. It would take quite a long time to redesign and start the permitting process all over again I'm sure.

My thoughts exactly, plus you have to take in to account the amount of time the architects will need to redesign the entrances and make all of those changes to the drawings. A change order like that on a project of this scale could take months. Like I said, there is no reason for it, this reporter is just trying to stir up trouble. To be honest they really havn't even given us a real clear view of the entrances to begin with. I didn't even think there was a situated entrace, looks more like a plaza that opens in many areas and onto multiple streets.

[Kroney]

For those of you who were hoping to build a miniature replica of Patriots Square Park in your backyard using brick from the original park, I have some disappointing news: The city parks dept. confirmed that they plan on salvaging the brick for some future use. There goes my plans of showing up on demolition day with a flatbed truck.

[HX_Guy]

CityScape backers' persistence pays off

Oct. 26, 2007 09:45 AM
It is both ironic and interesting that the original town site of Phoenix, the parcel surrounding Central Avenue and Washington Street, home to the first commercial buildings in the city, is now the focus of a commercial rebirth downtown.

For most of the past 50 years, those core blocks have been an eyesore, a microcosm of the Phoenix downtown itself: abandoned, lifeless, underutilized, home only to transients. Scores of city officials tried to breathe new energy and purpose into the area. Over the years, countless developers and businesses considered the site where George Luhrs, John Y.T. Smith and Edward Irvine put down roots more than a century ago. And decided not to risk it.

The area deteriorated, then stayed dormant since the 1960s.
advertisement


Until now.

CityScape's developers and financial backers are putting up to $900 million on this project, the largest of its kind in Phoenix history. They are betting on a future for the downtown no one else - other than the city's elected officials - has been willing to invest.

Nor was CityScape easy to put together. It involved several owners, multiple partners, painstaking, laborious negotiations to acquire the land and the careful recruitment of solid, serious tenants.

The development is a commercial one, with office space, retail, hotels and upscale (not luxury) residential. It is neither a shopping mall nor a central park.

Nor should it be.

What it is, however, is no less than the most comprehensive commitment to the Phoenix downtown by a private developer. Not world class - we overuse that word anyway - but an exciting, signature project that will infuse new life, new jobs, new activity and new people into an area that has been in desperate need of all of that.

In the past five years, one by one, a new downtown has been forming. Residential condos, apartments and student dormitories are under construction. All have lamented the lack of a downtown grocery. AJ's Fine Foods will be the most welcome downtown arrival since . . . well . . . the Phoenix Suns and Arizona Diamondbacks.

For decades, city fathers longed for a third large downtown hotel to attract larger national conventions. Alas, in their long frustration, they decided to build one themselves. CityScape holds the promise of two specialized, "boutique" hotels in the next five years, adding 400 rooms.

The core office tenant is Wachovia, the nation's fourth-largest bank and a giant in securities and investment brokerage, having recently acquired A.G. Edwards. Wachovia will be the signature tenant in a 600,000-square-foot office building on Washington Street between Central and First Street.

Some folks were hoping for a "destination place," unique, distinctive and "world class," a development that would define the Phoenix skyline.

This is not that. In a sense, it probably is something more. It is an affirmation in the city's future, that the recent energy, growth and investment in the downtown make it ripe for a project of this scope and expense. Not Tempe. Not Scottsdale. Not Desert Ridge. Not the Camelback Corridor. But Downtown.

That in itself is a development worth recognizing and cheering.

[wissundevil06]

Very nice and well written article. This project alone will forsure spark a development boom downtown! Fingers crossed atleast

[Buckeye Native 001]

CityScape backers' persistence pays off

Oct. 26, 2007 09:45 AM
It is both ironic and interesting that the original town site of Phoenix, the parcel surrounding Central Avenue and Washington Street, home to the first commercial buildings in the city, is now the focus of a commercial rebirth downtown.

For most of the past 50 years, those core blocks have been an eyesore, a microcosm of the Phoenix downtown itself: abandoned, lifeless, underutilized, home only to transients. Scores of city officials tried to breathe new energy and purpose into the area. Over the years, countless developers and businesses considered the site where George Luhrs, John Y.T. Smith and Edward Irvine put down roots more than a century ago. And decided not to risk it.

The area deteriorated, then stayed dormant since the 1960s.
advertisement


Until now.

CityScape's developers and financial backers are putting up to $900 million on this project, the largest of its kind in Phoenix history. They are betting on a future for the downtown no one else - other than the city's elected officials - has been willing to invest.

Nor was CityScape easy to put together. It involved several owners, multiple partners, painstaking, laborious negotiations to acquire the land and the careful recruitment of solid, serious tenants.

The development is a commercial one, with office space, retail, hotels and upscale (not luxury) residential. It is neither a shopping mall nor a central park.

Nor should it be.

What it is, however, is no less than the most comprehensive commitment to the Phoenix downtown by a private developer. Not world class - we overuse that word anyway - but an exciting, signature project that will infuse new life, new jobs, new activity and new people into an area that has been in desperate need of all of that.

In the past five years, one by one, a new downtown has been forming. Residential condos, apartments and student dormitories are under construction. All have lamented the lack of a downtown grocery. AJ's Fine Foods will be the most welcome downtown arrival since . . . well . . . the Phoenix Suns and Arizona Diamondbacks.

For decades, city fathers longed for a third large downtown hotel to attract larger national conventions. Alas, in their long frustration, they decided to build one themselves. CityScape holds the promise of two specialized, "boutique" hotels in the next five years, adding 400 rooms.

The core office tenant is Wachovia, the nation's fourth-largest bank and a giant in securities and investment brokerage, having recently acquired A.G. Edwards. Wachovia will be the signature tenant in a 600,000-square-foot office building on Washington Street between Central and First Street.

Some folks were hoping for a "destination place," unique, distinctive and "world class," a development that would define the Phoenix skyline.

This is not that. In a sense, it probably is something more. It is an affirmation in the city's future, that the recent energy, growth and investment in the downtown make it ripe for a project of this scope and expense. Not Tempe. Not Scottsdale. Not Desert Ridge. Not the Camelback Corridor. But Downtown.

That in itself is a development worth recognizing and cheering.

Sounds like an incredibly promising move for Downtown, and something to look forward to if I end up moving back to Phoenix. :tup:

[DevdogAZ]

I disagree! Really who would this apply to? Bums? Protestors? Is anyone going to shy away from entering a park that is surrounded by retail? I don't think they need to put some grand entrance that says "Public", seems obvious to me. This Joel Nilsson sounds like one of the people that were originaly against this project to begin with, just trying to stir up trouble again.

The only thing they need to do to make the public space inviting and utilized is ensure that the retailers that ring the park area (AJ's, a bookstore, a restaurant) are the types of places people will go/shop. If people are going to these establishments, they'll "discover" the open space and it will be utilized just fine. If the retail is dead, the open space will be dead too, and become a hang out for bums, just like PSP was. Putting up some kind of "Grand Entrance" isn't going to get people inside. It's the retailers and the presence of people that's going to get more people inside.

[combusean]

Since this park thing, I've been thinking that it's called "open space" precisely because you don't have people falling all over you when you're trying to relax.

Granted, that doesn't mean sterile nasty concrete plazas like the usual fare, but it also doesn't mean cramming every last square inch of space all over downtown with people. But, ya know, if we did--that'd be a great problem to have.

[HX_Guy]

Video done by Channel 12/AZCentral with John Bacon talking about the project...and he mentions 385' for the Wachovia tower! :D

http://www.azcentral.com/phpAPP/multimedia/flash.php?path=rtmp://azcentral.com/news/1023cityscapetourweb

[AZ KID]

Wow great find HX Guy

[PHX_PD]

Not a whole lot of new info here, but a good overview of the situation with the FAA:

High-rise project raises FAA worries

510-foot Phoenix tower would be tallest building in Arizona

Casey Newton
The Arizona Republic
Nov. 10, 2007 12:00 AM

FAA officials say building heights proposed for a $900 million Phoenix development are too tall and could interfere with aircraft flying over downtown.

"The structure is presumed to be a hazard to air navigation," FAA analyst Robert van Haastert wrote in an October letter to Scottsdale-based RED Development, which is building CityScape in downtown Phoenix.

If further analysis confirms the FAA's initial findings, RED could be denied a building permit for the project, city officials said.

CityScape, which will take over Patriots Square, broke ground last month to bring shopping, a hotel, residents and 2,500 jobs to downtown.

Four towers are ultimately planned for the project, covering First Avenue to Second Street from Washington to Jefferson streets.

The development would include a 375-foot office building and a larger hotel and condominium tower that, if built at 510 feet, would be the largest building in Arizona. Two other towers could be added later.

An initial FAA analysis this summer said no building at CityScape should be taller than 355 feet. Otherwise, the agency said, the towers would "punch up" into the established buffer between buildings and aircraft flying to and from Sky Harbor International Airport.

The FAA requires a certain amount of open airspace around planes as they take off and land. CityScape would enter that airspace for two of Sky Harbor's runways if built to current specifications, the FAA said.

The developers and Phoenix, which runs the airport, dispute the FAA's findings. They say buildings taller than 355 feet pose no hazard to aviation. An analysis of downtown Phoenix's topography completed last year by the city Aviation Department showed that taller buildings were appropriate for the site, said Jane Morris, deputy aviation director.

Both Phoenix and RED played down the significance of the FAA notice, saying many downtown projects received similar letters but ultimately worked out agreements with the federal agency.

"We don't have any real concern over it," said Jeff Moloznik, development manager for RED. "We just look at it as part of the normal development process."

In downtown Phoenix, the Sheraton Hotel and aborted W Hotel both were labeled "presumed hazards" before ultimately getting approval from the FAA, the city said.

"Every tall building near an airport is a presumed hazard," said David Krietor, a deputy city manager who oversees aviation. "Basically, in the FAA parlance, that means 'we don't know enough about the project.' "

The FAA disputed that characterization, saying its analysis of the CityScape structures raised legitimate concerns.

"We've made a preliminary conclusion that a structure of this height, in that location, would pose a hazard to air navigation," Ian Gregor, an FAA spokesman, said.

RED and the FAA are now exchanging land-survey information in an effort to resolve the conflict. If the FAA cannot be convinced that CityScape is safe, the agency might pressure RED to reduce the height of its towers.

RED officials say the towers will likely be shorter than planned anyway because of lower demand in the residential market. But they still intend to build higher than 355 feet.

CityScape's first phase is scheduled to open in late 2009 with anchor tenants including the financial-services firm Wachovia Corp., P.F. Chang's China Bistro and AJ's Fine Foods.

In 2010, the 250-room Hotel Palomar plans to open on the site.

The project's first phase would include 1,200 residential units.

CityScape is supported by more than $120 million in incentives from Phoenix. The city will spend $96.5 million to purchase the development's underground parking garage and to repair an existing garage.

Phoenix also will waive property taxes on the project for eight years, an incentive worth an estimated $26 million.

Krietor said he was confident the city's analysis of the property would convince the FAA that CityScape is safe to build.

"We have not had a project yet where our analysis was not proven to be accurate, where it wasn't determined to not be a hazard," he said.

[somethingfast]

^ This is outrageous imho. The FAA cannot make such unreasonable threats of a city about buildings. They are acting like thugs. I just don't see how this is such an issue for Phoenix when San Diego has taller buildings and the plans fly CLOSER to them. It just seems there's always so much stacked against anyone who wants to build anything in DT. No the f**k wonder nobody ever builds anything there. Absurd. FAA, go fly a kite. I mean, we're talking about 27 feet difference between Chase and these buildings. Do you think the FAA was crying wolf way back in 1973???? I think not.

[Don B.]

^ I tend to agree with you, somethingfast, but remember that Cityscape is two blocks closer to the flight paths than Chase Tower.

I'm sure Phoenix, the FAA and the developer will get this worked out.

As much as we want a new tallest (One Central Park East certainly could have been it), tall buildings do not make a great downtown. Many European cities have shorter downtowns but they are hopping. San Diego's downtown is great and their tallest is only 17 feet taller than ours. As long as Cityscape still happens, even if it ends up being only 450' for the tallest tower in the project, I can live with that.

--don

[tempedude]

Just a minor detail. The reporter said that 2 buildings are to be built first and then the other 2 added later. Didn't the developer say at the unveiling that Wachovia tower would start first, then they would start on the Palomar hotel/condo tower(think I have the name right without going to look it up lol) and the Twelve Hotel/condo tower at the same time around mid 2008?

Anyway ultimately I think Cityscape will overcome this little bump and will be built as planned. Look if the Sheraton and the (sniff sniff..I miss you) W Hotel were approved then so will Cityscape.

And, this is basically old news anyway. Lawd I hate government red tape.

[kevininlb]

What I'm bummed about is that RED is saying they're going shorter regardless of the FAA. Key disappointing phrase: RED officials say the towers will likely be shorter than planned anyway...

[somethingfast]

Maybe the city of Phoenix should encourage developers to build tallies a bit farther north of Chase? Incentivize them without going crazy. There's no good reason why Phoenix being the 5th largest city in the US should not have a new tallest by now. Don, I agree that tall buildings don't necessarily mean a good downtown but Phoenix definitely has an identity problem and, like it or not, is sorta the laughing stock of the nation if not the world in terms of DT "impressiveness" relative to size. A new tallest would help. Phoenix is about to take its lumps with the RE downfall and I think it needs this more than ever. The FAA needs to back off and stop sounding the alarms.

[Don B.]

^ Well, Phoenix really isn't the 5th largest city in the U.S. That's using the arbitrary city limits definition. Metro areas numbers are far more meaningful and in that aspect, Phoenix is more like the 12th or 13th largest city in the U.S.

As an example, no one who knows cities would ever consider Phoenix larger than Boston or Philadelphia. Both cities have massive belts of suburbs and are really much larger (not to mention much older) than Phoenix. To wit:

Arbitrary city limit populations:

1. Phoenix: 600 square miles - 1.53 million
2. Philadelphia: 139 square miles - 1.45 million
3. Boston: 38 square miles - 580,000

Metro area populations:

1. Philadelphia: 6.3 million
2. Boston: 5.4 million
3. Phoenix: 4.3 million

Put another way, Philadelphia is two Tucson metro areas bigger than Phoenix.

That being said, yes Phoenix could use some 600 or 700 foot towers for her size. For example, my hometown of Kansas City (less than half the size of Phoenix's 4.3 million in the metro area) has four skyscrapers taller than Phoenix's tallest, the tallest being One Kansas City Place, built in the late 1980s and 630 feet tall.

Let's just not confuse taller buildings with having a great downtown.

--don

[Tfom]

I think we all wanted a new tallest because they are cool. Like Kevinlb I think the most dissapointing thing is what RED said about market conditions. Why not build a taller hotel then. That's one area that doesn't seem to have a demand problem right now. I think the 355' thing is kind of silly and nothing to worry about, considering Bank of America is 360'. Someone is just covering their ass.

[HX_Guy]

^ I tend to agree with you, somethingfast, but remember that Cityscape is two blocks closer to the flight paths than Chase Tower.


--don


Yes, but also remember that the W Hotel was yet another block further south and almost 3 blocks further east toward to the runways then where CityScape would go, and that got the ok for 450'.

I think at a minimum CityScape will get the ok for the same heigh, 450', which it sounds like they want to minimize it to anyway. The original renderings showed a 45 story tower and the newest only have 37...keeping things proportionate, if 45 stories meant 510', then 37 means only about 420'.

[kevininlb]

^ Well, Phoenix really isn't the 5th largest city in the U.S. That's using the arbitrary city limits definition. Metro areas numbers are far more meaningful and in that aspect, Phoenix is more like the 12th or 13th largest city in the U.S.

As an example, no one who knows cities would ever consider Phoenix larger than Boston or Philadelphia. Both cities have massive belts of suburbs and are really much larger (not to mention much older) than Phoenix. To wit:

Arbitrary city limit populations:

1. Phoenix: 600 square miles - 1.53 million
2. Philadelphia: 139 square miles - 1.45 million
3. Boston: 38 square miles - 580,000

Metro area populations:

1. Philadelphia: 6.3 million
2. Boston: 5.4 million
3. Phoenix: 4.3 million

Put another way, Philadelphia is two Tucson metro areas bigger than Phoenix.

That being said, yes Phoenix could use some 600 or 700 foot towers for her size. For example, my hometown of Kansas City (less than half the size of Phoenix's 4.3 million in the metro area) has four skyscrapers taller than Phoenix's tallest, the tallest being One Kansas City Place, built in the late 1980s and 630 feet tall.

Let's just not confuse taller buildings with having a great downtown.

--don

You know, Don, I understand your point. But this whole argument -- often cited when Phoenix's population comes up -- really doesn't hold much weight. Look at the top 10 cities and Phoenix's geographic size isn't exactly grossly out of whack (L.A., for example). These are 2000 census figures, so slighty outdated, but still... Anyway, what's the real measure...metro? Okay...anyone have square miles per metro? I suspect the Philly metro is bigger than Phoenix in square miles but not sure.

Municipality State 2000 Population 2000 Land Area in Square Miles
New York city New York 8,008,278 303.3
Los Angeles city California 3,694,820 469.1
Chicago city Illinois 2,896,016 227.1
Houston city Texas 1,953,631 579.5
Philadelphia city Pennsylvania 1,517,550 135.1
Phoenix city Arizona 1,321,045 474.9
San Diego city California 1,223,400 324.4
Dallas city Texas 1,188,580 342.6
San Antonio city Texas 1,144,646 407.6
Detroit city Michigan 951,270 138.8

[JimInCal]

I for one will be disappointed if Cityscape trims the height of the hotel/condo tower. Sure; height doesn't necessarily make a great downtown, but 510' really isn't all that high comparatively speaking. A new tallest is more a symbol of Phoenix finally starting to come of age as a real city, counter to its reputation as a mass of suburbia with a weak central core.

I know that the condo market is weak today, but does anyone really know what it will be like when the initial tower comes on line in 2-3 years? Economic prognostication is an inexact science at best. I wish RED had the juevos to take the risk, assuming they can maneuver thru the FAA crap, to just make the statement with the 44-story tower.

Being the tallest building in AZ in itself can be a great marketing tool to woo potential buyers. The location is incredible: light rail on three sides, two major league sports venues within a short walk, a vastly expanding convention center, a major entertainment district about to pop, an unprescedented mix of amenities at your doorstep, major employers in government, banking and education a stone's throw away...need I go on. I don't buy "the weak market" excuse. LET'S HAVE SOME VISION, FOR A CHANGE!

[tempedude]

:previous: Hallelujah!!! amen

[PHX NATIVE 929]

Pretty unimpressive journalism by the AZ Republic on this one. Not only did they present this "news" in mid-November that HX reported to us weeks ago (I believe from an FAA website(?)), but the paper also fails to tell us when the issue is expected to be resolved. Whether or not this issue will cause any construction delays would probably also be worth mentioning.

[HX_Guy]

I stumbled across the FAA report on October 3rd and they are just now reporting on it. I wouldn't be surprised if a resolution is already in the works and the AZ Republic doesn't even know about it yet...they already misreported the phases of the project, what's to say anything else they are reporting has any credibility?