Phoenix CityScape Thread [Archive] - Page 47

combusean

Mar 9, 2010, 12:52 PM

Alliance Bank of Arizona commits to CityScape (http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/2010/03/08/20100308biz-AllianceBank0309.html)

2 comments by Russ Wiles - Mar. 9, 2010 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

Investing in commercial real estate in this economic environment might seem about as appealing as trying to charm snakes or walk on simmering coals.

But officials at Alliance Bank of Arizona say their stake in the new CityScape project symbolizes a long-term commitment they're making to downtown Phoenix and Arizona.

The bank not only extended a $40.2 million loan to build the complex's retail space and garage but also will occupy a floor of the first-phase office tower and have its name on the structure.

"It's a major indication of our commitment to the state of Arizona and downtown Phoenix," said James Lundy, Alliance's president and CEO.

"We plan to emerge over the next few years as a major locally focused bank in Arizona."

Alliance and its parent, Las Vegas-based Western Alliance Bancorporation, will house about 50 employees at the CityScape location, most of whom already work in the Valley, said Ed Zito, Alliance's executive vice president.

Alliance also will move a branch from another downtown location.

Alliance replaces Wachovia as the bank with a major presence in the project, which features a mix of office, retail and entertainment space, plus a hotel. Wachovia had signed up for space before bad-loan troubles forced its sale to Wells Fargo.

The CityScape financing represents one of the largest loans in the history of Western Alliance.

CityScape's owner, RED Development LLC, also obtained $192 million in 2008 from an eight-bank consortium for other parts of the project. In addition, Phoenix has provided financial incentives.

RED has about 20 projects in various parts of the country, "but this is gaining the most attention," said Michael Ebert, a RED managing partner. "The reason is because retailing is coming downtown."

Ebert said he feels the dark clouds hovering over commercial real estate have started to lift, helped by the emergence of more insurance companies willing to commit long-term financing.

"Life-insurance companies are sitting on huge amounts of cash," he said. "They need higher yields (on their portfolios)."

Ebert said RED hopes to lock in permanent financing on CityScape later this year or early in 2011.

Vicelord John

Mar 9, 2010, 3:49 PM

see azcentral.com for complete artical...

Why couldn't you past the whole articAl here?

Really? Artical?

fuck hahahaa

mwadswor

Mar 9, 2010, 7:50 PM

Why couldn't you past the whole articAl here?

I and most others do it too, but technically, posting whole articALs is against the forum rules...

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/announcement.php?f=14&a=313

If you're linking to a third-party article, comment or letter-to-the-editor on the forum, please follow the article linking example below.

Headline title (bolding the title helps with readibility)
Author name, publication (If available)
Date published
Link to article (full link, starting with "http://"
Single large paragraph or equivalent excerpt from the article, ending with [...] to show additional content available through the link.

mwadswor

Mar 9, 2010, 8:27 PM

After a long drawn out argument with Derrick Hall, a few city of Phoenix police, and a convo with a few city counsel members I was informed that since the Dbacks leased the property, they could decide how and when it could be used. I am going to take a shot in the dark and say the same goes for this "park" at CityScape.

It's all in the terms of the lease. If the Dbacks (or Cityscape) lease the property and the lease says they get to make the rules, then I don't see why it would matter who actually owns the land. I lease an apartment, somebody else owns it, they still don't have any legal right to enter my apartment without my permission, even though they own the property.

Would Cityscape's lease be public? If yes, someone look it up and we can stop speculating.

Vicelord John

Mar 10, 2010, 4:52 PM

This from the marketing person at CityScape.

"Regarding the hotel, I do not have the exact time table, but a portion of the hotel base is already constructed. I understand that they will be going vertical on it this summer or fall and it is expected to open Fall 2011. It will be a beautiful hotel."

plinko

Mar 10, 2010, 5:23 PM

1 year construction (including FF&E) on a 12 story (however tall it is) hotel? In a word...no...
18 months absolute minimum. If they started today they might be open by Christmas 2011.

I hate marketing people.

HX_Guy

Mar 10, 2010, 6:05 PM

Yea that sounds like absolute BS, total made up response.

And what part of the hotel base has been already built? The parking garage under it or are they talking about the 3 stories of elevator rebar? Haha.

HX_Guy

Mar 17, 2010, 11:34 PM

Alliance Bank name to grace CityScape
Phoenix Business Journal - by Chris Casacchia

CityScape, the $900 million mixed-use project in downtown Phoenix, has finally secured its anchor tenant, with naming rights going to Alliance Bank of Arizona, a subsidiary of Western Alliance Bancorp, which is headed by Suns owner Robert Sarver.

Alliance Bank will relocate an existing branch into the building’s retail section, while workers from both financial firms will occupy space in the office tower.

The announcement ends months of speculation after Wachovia Bank unceremoniously gave up the naming rights when it was gobbled up by Wells Fargo & Co., as it teetered on collapse.

In October 2007, Wachovia announced it would anchor the 600,000-square-foot CityScape office tower downtown. The financial institution was on the verge of bleeding billions of dollars, and by June, its CEO was ousted. But the CityScape deal remained in place as its existence was in limbo.

In April 2009, the Phoenix Business Journal reported that Wells Fargo & Co. would not move into the CityScape office tower. Instead the San Francisco-based bank (NYSE:WFC) chose to sublease the three floors that Wachovia Corp. was set to occupy at the project.

Wachovia leased 67,400 square feet at CityScape as part of a planned expansion in the Phoenix market, but Wells took over that lease as part of a $15.1 billion merger with the financially stressed Wachovia.

Wells has an office complex in downtown Phoenix just blocks from the CityScape construction.

Sarver, in a released statement, said the bank looks forward to having a major presence downtown.

Alliance Bank plans to move into its new space in September.

Alliance Bank, which opened in 2003, reported record deposit growth last year, controlling assets of $1.1 billion. But similar to most other banks in Arizona, struggled amid a heavy portfolio of real estate loans. In 2009, the bank lost $6.8 million, better than the $10.2 million loss in 2008.

In October 2009, the Business Journal reported Alliance Bank of Arizona laid off 18 employees in a statewide cost-cutting move.

Executive Vice President Ed Zito, at the time, said the move reflected the severe economic downturn in the entire banking industry, and the national and global economy.

.

HooverDam

Mar 18, 2010, 8:04 AM

^Cool, glad to hear the building won't be empty and Im also glad that it means the Wells Fargo Tower will remain occupied. I was sorta worried it would be a similar situation w/ OCPE, a new building getting filled while leaving an older one empty.

Is Alliance bank looking to expand in AZ does anyone know? I dont think I recall ever driving by any of their branches. It always seems odd to me that smaller banks like that and Meridian on North Central are able to lease so much space and have their names on towers, I suppose banking is rather lucrative though.

EDIT: VV Ahh I didnt realize Alliance was a business bank, that would explain why I dont see them much.

combusean

Mar 18, 2010, 8:13 AM

They have quite a few around AZ actually, check their website.

http://www.alliancebankofarizona.com/contactus/locations.cfm

Business banks don't need as many locations but I'm sure the backoffice is comparatively larger.

glynnjamin

Mar 19, 2010, 4:30 PM

Just a note. Went over to the Gold's Gym trailer yesterday to sign up for a membership. If anyone is interested they have a couple different plans now
1. $1 enrollment, $34.99 bi-weekly dues
2. $199 enrollment (minus the $100 off coupon), $24.99 bi-weekly dues

The gym will be open from 4am-11pm during the week and 8am-8pm on the weekends. It will occupy the second and third floors of its space and the sky bridge will lead directly to the entrance. They are going to have a lot of cool stuff in there and the place seems a hell of a lot nicer than some of the other Gold's that I've seen.

Vicelord John

Mar 19, 2010, 4:41 PM

$70 a month for a gym??? Thats a fucking rip. How much is the Y? And that place across the street is nice i used to be a member there. It waslike $50. They have indoor basketball and raquetball and even rooftop tennis.

glynnjamin

Mar 19, 2010, 5:05 PM

Well it is $50 if you do the $99 enrollment. That's in line with everything else downtown...I think. The Y is $50 and that place up next to the Chateaux is like $70/mo. I thought the price was right. It is a bit of a disappointment that they don't have things like a pool, bball, raquetball but I'm not really going to be using that stuff anyways. All of the classes are included in the price (if you are in to spinning, yoga, pilates, etc) so it's a really good deal if you are going some place like Sutra Yoga.

No doubt though, it is expensive. The guy said that members at other Gold's Gyms have to pay more to get access to that one. LOL

One more thing I forgot to mention, if you sign up now, you get your keytag things and access to all of the gyms. So, in other words, you get the rest of March and all of April until they open to use another Golds for "free". Not a bad deal if you are ever around another one.

The guy did say that memberships were selling like crazy and that they were selling a lot of packages to the businesses downtown. In terms of development and impact, it seems like CityScape is already starting to make a positive impact.

NorthScottsdale

Mar 19, 2010, 5:19 PM

they shoulda put a 24 hour fitness downtown.. thats where I work out and it's only 29.99 a month, and there were no start-up fees. 70 bucks a month sounds like a rip off

Vicelord John

Mar 19, 2010, 5:30 PM

Lifetime fitness costs that price and look at its amenities.

HX_Guy

Mar 19, 2010, 6:00 PM

Jesus that is expensive as hell I think...but maybe I'm just used to the prices I used to pay at LA Fitness ($26/month). I now signed up for Mountainside Fitness (brand new and closer to my house) and it's $33 a month and I thought that was kind of pricey...the amenities are badass too, basketball court...rockwall...movie theatre (if you are waiting for someone)...on-site massage and chiropractic center, really nice.

HooverDam

Mar 19, 2010, 9:29 PM

Geez that does seem pricey, and no basketball to boot? Lame.

Its good to hear they're getting a lot of sign ups though, I wasn't sure if they would or not b/c I thought a lot of the office buildings have their own small gyms in them. And if 44 Monroe and Summit ever fill up I wonder if the people in them would go to Golds since those buildings also have their own gyms.

Vicelord John

Mar 19, 2010, 9:57 PM

Glenn, you should just go to Amsterdam and bend over with your pants down, becuase you're getting fucked.

A fool and his money...

Leo the Dog

Mar 19, 2010, 10:09 PM

Gold's is a rip!

I pay $19.99/month at LA Fitness and I can go to any location in the state of AZ free of charge.

phxbyrd

Mar 20, 2010, 6:17 AM

Does mountainside fitness still have a sponsorship deal with the Suns? If so I think they should have pushed for one of those to go in their to build on that relationship. Frankly I don't really think a gym was the right thing in there but I'm sure RED was desperate to get people leased there.

Leo the Dog

Mar 20, 2010, 11:31 AM

^^^ A gym was a great idea back when Cityscape had 1000 new condos going up. A grocery store was also a great idea with the condos, now...we'll see what happens.

bwonger06

Mar 20, 2010, 6:14 PM

Lifetime fitness costs that price and look at its amenities.

Outside of Lifetime and the Village, I cannot see how a gym can charge that much especially Golds gym (a place known for muscle beach kind of attitude- no frills just lots of weights and lots of huge roiders)

gymratmanaz

Mar 20, 2010, 8:56 PM

PEDESTRIAN BRIDGE is up!!! I watched it go up this morning. It crosses Central.

Also, they are starting on the south 3 sories it looks. There are four ne pillars of rebar, at least 4 more lying on the ground, and a few very large cement molds for walls. I can't tell if they are for the evelator or for other reasons. There is also a lot of other rebar on the ground. I think we have movement on the south side!!!!!!!

Tito714

Mar 21, 2010, 12:07 AM

Yeah I saw the pedestrian bridge as well today all though I took a picture it is of very bad quality.

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh296/otrebmuh1991/0320100821a.jpg

Vicelord John

Mar 21, 2010, 12:56 AM

what in God's name did you take that picture with?

Tito714

Mar 21, 2010, 2:07 AM

a razr phone.:D

I like it cause it's so simple, but as you see it has it's dissadvantages, and the fact that I didn't have my camera.

glynnjamin

Mar 22, 2010, 3:01 PM

John (or anyone) where would you suggest I go that I can get to without driving? As far as I know, the only other public gyms along the LRT are the one next to Chateaux and the YMCA. Both of those charge the same amount. I used to go to LA Fitness but the closest one to my house is the one on Scottsdale Rd! I need somewhere I can go at like 8pm and get to without a car. Suggestions are welcome.

Vicelord John

Mar 22, 2010, 3:16 PM

There is an la fitness on 20th and camelback...

Also why not renaissance?

Or even better yet why not the y? Its closer, has way better amenities, and is the same price. No brainer...

glynnjamin

Mar 22, 2010, 3:29 PM

I used to go to that LA Fitness at Camelback - it's like a room with some equipment in it. No courts, no anything... It was sort of pointless compared to the one in Scottsdale.

It was my understanding that the Renaissance wasn't open that late.
And the Y's "amenities" include being closed at 1:30 on a Sunday and shitty equipment. I know I sound like I am being picky, I'm gonna see how Gold's goes. Everything is new, clean, with state of the art equipment and it is really convenient. I know I am paying more than somewhere like 24Hr or LA but my lazy ass won't go if it isn't within walking distance.

Sorry to hijack the thread.

Excited to go check out the sky bridge! Anyone have a better picture?

scottkag

Mar 22, 2010, 4:00 PM

Huh? Last time I checked (yesterday), they had a basketball court, raquetball courts, and a 25 yd. pool.

I used to go to that LA Fitness at Camelback - it's like a room with some equipment in it. No courts, no anything... It was sort of pointless compared to the one in Scottsdale.

phxbyrd

Mar 22, 2010, 6:18 PM

Is the CitySquare club still open? Also the Y used to have nice equipment the last time I went there in 99. In the old days it was the "Dungeon" which I was sorry they got rid of.

Leo the Dog

Mar 22, 2010, 7:09 PM

Huh? Last time I checked (yesterday), they had a basketball court, raquetball courts, and a 25 yd. pool.

And its only a ten minute drive from downtown (if that). If you do it right, you can knock out groceries at trader joes, frye's, banks, gym, gas, car wash etc...other shops all on same corner.

Vicelord John

Mar 22, 2010, 8:23 PM

Ahhhh the rational thought! It's hurting my head!!!

glynnjamin

Mar 22, 2010, 8:26 PM

It has been a long time since I went to that LA Fitness at Town & Country. I didn't see any of that stuff. Either way, can't get there without a car.

Leo, the Golds is a 5 minute walk from my house. There is a Chase ATM in the chase tower on the way. The stupid grocery store in the same building as the Golds. Since I'm walking, don't need gas or car wash.

glynnjamin

Mar 22, 2010, 8:27 PM

John, please tell me how the T&C is walkable from downtown. Not quite rational, is it?

Leo the Dog

Mar 23, 2010, 1:04 AM

John, please tell me how the T&C is walkable from downtown. Not quite rational, is it?

LR to Camelback Route. Or, even better, LR then bike to LA fitness, get your heart rate up, then hit the weights.

Vicelord John

Mar 23, 2010, 1:31 AM

Or even better, blue line.

Leo the Dog

Mar 23, 2010, 10:41 AM

Or even better, Route 10 Central Station to Highland and 24th St.

glynnjamin

Mar 23, 2010, 2:31 PM

Your guys definition of walkable is vastly different than mine.

HX_Guy

Mar 23, 2010, 5:57 PM

Your guys definition of walkable is vastly different than mine.

Yea no joke. I consider "walkable" as just walking...not taking public transit as part of the trip. If that was the case, then the majority of Phoenix would be considered "walkable" and that's not how I see it.

For me, walkable is being about to walk there in about 10 minutes or less...or about a .75 miles.

Vicelord John

Mar 23, 2010, 7:22 PM

Whatever. I'm more than willing to ride a bus or train to save $50 a month by not going to an under-amenitied (I know thats not a word) gym that is going to have great hours to start with and then gradually close earlier and earlier. Just like Renaissance and the YMCA did.

How much is a monthly Metro pass, and would you use it to go elsewhere other than LA Fitness? If you wouldn't then its probably a wash, but if you would use the train or bus system for other travel, then it's a better deal.

Seriously though, no pool? no raquetball? no tennis? and most importantly no BASKETBALL? FUCK! the only reason I've ever joined a gym is to play ball.

Vicelord John

Mar 23, 2010, 7:23 PM

Or even better, Route 10 Central Station to Highland and 24th St.

too slow. Traffic on Roosevelt and all those other side streets would aggrivate me.

phxbyrd

Mar 23, 2010, 7:25 PM

then again in truely walkable cities they would consider twice that, 20 minutes to be a walkable distance. Perhaps we need to seem less lazy if developers are willing to take a risk in building walkable projects.

glynnjamin

Mar 23, 2010, 7:36 PM

Look John, I don't disagree with you as far as those particular amenities go. I am not one to use public pools and don't play raquetball or basketball. If there was a gym with a batting cage then I might consider that. You may well be right about them adjusting their hours. If the place doesn't live up to the expectations that I have for it, then I will leave. It is really no big deal. Real estate downtown is expensive. I can understand why they don't have things like a pool or basketball court but I would rather them focus their square footage on machines (so that I don't have to wait) and classes. If all of that is not enough, I would really rather throw my money and support behind any business that decides to relocate to downtown. I don't see any other gyms fighting for a piece of the downtown landscape (who could blame them) and I feel like it will go a long way towards getting more 1st class amenities downtown if we patronize the ones that are here. We spend years bitching here about the chicken vs the egg with regards to things to do downtown and the lack of people to do those things. Well now someone has taken a chance and put something downtown for people to do. It might be in all of our best interests to go do them.

PHX31

Mar 23, 2010, 8:41 PM

The Y has crappy equipment?

I go there and I don't think so. It's not brand new (weights and such), but it's nice. They do have a ton of new treadmills and such (with integrated TVs) and a lot of free classes. I'm surprised you don't go there, glynn, you live basically right next door i thought.

glynnjamin

Mar 23, 2010, 8:58 PM

I went once to check it out. A lot of the people in my building go there too. When I went, it was overly busy, people were waiting for machines, and the weight machines looked old. I just didn't feel comfortable there. I'm not going to go to the gym if I don't feel comfortable, you know? Like, I have to enjoy being there. I wish that I liked the Y. It is 100 yards from my back door to their front door. I just don't like it.

Vicelord John

Mar 23, 2010, 9:10 PM

That is true of the Y. It gets B U S Y!

There are probably 20-30 cars in my complex alone with YMCA parking stickers on them.

PHX31

Mar 23, 2010, 10:13 PM

Yeah, it is pretty busy.

Don B.

Mar 23, 2010, 11:14 PM

For me, a gym MUST have a pool and hot tub. My condo complex has a small gym that I use regularly (i can almost bench my bodyweight of 225 pounds now...yay -- hey, don't laugh, when I started in October I could only bench 130-140 lbs) and there is an unheated pool for the summer months. The gym needs to have amenities that I don't have access to. After working out (and a long stressful day at work), relaxing in a hot tub/heated spa is the bomb. Actually, if my complex had a spa, I'd probably not join a gym ever.

I'm thinking about joining the LA fitness near 20th Street and Camelback, as that is on my way home from work. I hear it is horribly crowded at 5-7 pm, though.

--don

Vicelord John

Mar 23, 2010, 11:16 PM

yeah, I shop at that Trader Joe's (usually about 6pm after work) and the parking lot is full of gym people.

HX_Guy

Mar 24, 2010, 1:13 AM

Ok...back to Cityscape since the Construction Update thread seems to have turned into the Cityscape thread. Lets see if I can steer this in the right direction...

Here is the PDF that Plinko was talking about with the signage package. I turned a few of the pages into JPGs so we can discuss them in more detail, but check out the PDF as well because it has more drawings, including some stuff on the hotel tower.

http://nitnelav.com/20100142061.pdf

http://nitnelav.com/CityscapeFacade/1.png

http://nitnelav.com/CityscapeFacade/2.png

http://nitnelav.com/CityscapeFacade/3.png

http://nitnelav.com/CityscapeFacade/7.png

http://nitnelav.com/CityscapeFacade/4.png

http://nitnelav.com/CityscapeFacade/5.png

http://nitnelav.com/CityscapeFacade/6.png

gymratmanaz

Mar 24, 2010, 1:43 AM

Glad to have Cityscape back here. HX...maybe pull your other thread in here. Good stuff with it!!!!

unfortunately, I cannot open the PDF. Are there any mockups of signage? Also, anything in it about the top perimeter of the building and how it will be finished? When we were down looking, we talked about how it was not cleanly edged and hoped for something nice like lighting or neon or something...

HX_Guy

Mar 24, 2010, 1:44 AM

Hmm...that sucks that the PDF won't open, I wonder why.

Do the 7 pictures I posted above work?

gymratmanaz

Mar 24, 2010, 1:53 AM

Yes. So what do the labeled numbers mean on each?

HX_Guy

Mar 24, 2010, 2:03 AM

Not sure...maybe Plinko can chime in.

From how I see it...it looks like there will be some sort of sineage that sticks out 12 ft from the wall and is 30'8" tall? It actually even looks to stick up past the height of the wall...no? How are they going to connect this thing to the building as it seems pretty massive.

http://nitnelav.com/CityscapeFacade/5.png

And it corespondents to this side...
http://www.nitnelav.com/DTMarch202010/6.jpg

glynnjamin

Mar 24, 2010, 3:44 AM

Just got back from taking the dog for a walk. Wandered around the mesa area of CityScape and shot some video on my phone. Uploaded it to YouTube for y'all to see.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouOpL6CfZT4

HooverDam

Mar 24, 2010, 3:48 AM

Leo the Dog

Mar 24, 2010, 12:13 PM

I hear it is horribly crowded at 5-7 pm, though.

--don

Yeah very crowded, thats why I don't go during those times, unless you like waiting in line to use a machine, treadmill, or weights.

Leo the Dog

Mar 24, 2010, 12:17 PM

I can't remember if the western block (PSP), is designed to add floors at some point in the future, like the original plans?

plinko

Mar 24, 2010, 4:54 PM

Thanks for posting that but it doesn't really tell me anything. I wouldn't classify any of that as anything close to a rendering and it doesn't tell my layman eyes at all what the finish is going to look like. Im having a hard time visualizing what theyre trying to get across.

For instance the legend shows that one of the dotted pattern means "encroachment", huh? Did a defensive lineman jump off sides? If that last image is to be believed all thats going on is just a shade canopy with a sign dangling off of it, I don't understand how that all covers the hundreds of square feet of grey space.

Plinko please interpret this mumbo jumbo! :D

It's not about covering the surface, it's about tricking the eye. The vertical signage elements and the horizontal canopy elements manipulate the eye to not really notice the large expanses of negative stucco finish. Alot of architects use this trick on long linear facades to minimize the overall impact. It's sort of a 'cake decoration' applique instead of actually detailing the overall facade (which is expensive).

Hard to say how well this final result will be pulled off.

Visually, the only similar thing I have to show you is a project I did at 12th and Buckeye about 10 years ago. How do you minimize and break up an 800' long facade with a limited budget? We created articulated entries (horizontal canopy elements) and broke up the linear facade with repeated steel fins (vertical elements). Similar concept.

Before:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/plinko923/Random/SSP/3PARKINGLOTOLD.jpg

After:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/plinko923/Random/SSP/5PARKINGLOTNW.jpg

gymratmanaz

Mar 24, 2010, 5:48 PM

Great example.

it sure looks like Cityscape will be doing something similar. HX and I were talking and it looks like there will be lots of large signage and other things to break up the facade. We will see soon.

HooverDam

Mar 24, 2010, 6:21 PM

Ooof, if thats along the lines about what we can expect, kill me now.

HX_Guy

Mar 24, 2010, 6:42 PM

Ooof, if thats along the lines about what we can expect, kill me now.

Yea, I'm with you on that one.

No disrespect to Plinko, as what he did worked for what looked to be a former loading dock...but for downtown Phoenix, to have something like this at it's core, is just horrible.

glynnjamin

Mar 24, 2010, 6:58 PM

I just dont get it. If I could legally sell the side of my house for advertisment space, I would - in a heartbeat. Why not? I mean - money is money. Otherwise that space is just wasted. Why would you NOT put ads in there like at Westgate. I think those ads are the only thing keeping Westgate open.

Don B.

Mar 24, 2010, 7:01 PM

Ooof, if thats along the lines about what we can expect, kill me now.

lmao...and oh so right.

--don

HooverDam

Mar 24, 2010, 7:20 PM

Yea, I'm with you on that one.

No disrespect to Plinko, as what he did worked for what looked to be a former loading dock...but for downtown Phoenix, to have something like this at it's core, is just horrible.

Right Plinkos project is certainly an improvement but I just expect something more/better for this location.

I just dont get it. If I could legally sell the side of my house for advertisment space, I would - in a heartbeat. Why not? I mean - money is money. Otherwise that space is just wasted. Why would you NOT put ads in there like at Westgate. I think those ads are the only thing keeping Westgate open.

I wonder if its a zoning thing. I've heard Phx is generally pretty restrictive about signs/ads so maybe they'd have to get a bunch of variances and go through riggamarol to get signs put up there.

I guess it just makes too much sense for a developer in this city to do something smart like put dynamic signage up there. It would help tie CityScape into JSED (if it happens) and really create a feel of a more lively downtown. At times our streets already feel dead, adding huge swaths of bleak grey concrete certainly isn't going to help.

I sent an email to RED about this, I tried to word it as kindly as possible and tell them I want whats best for CityScape and Downtown, so we'll see if they reply, I doubt it.

It seems like we could have this:

http://beta.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00018/AVN20_TICKER_18600f.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c6/Piccadilly_Circus_neon_signs.jpg/800px-Piccadilly_Circus_neon_signs.jpg

http://z.about.com/d/gocalifornia/1/0/j/8/3/IMG_7471-a.jpg

But instead we get:
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/2695/62389224.jpg

The interior part of CityScapes retail area is already going to hopefully have something of a Town Square feel to it (hardscape enclosed by retail), why not follow NYC, Toronto, London and Hong Kongs lead?

The whole thing about gives me a nose bleed just thinking about it.

gymratmanaz

Mar 24, 2010, 8:05 PM

Good e-mail idea. Let us know if you hear back.

The last 3 nights the Square has been bathed in blue light. There are 4 high powered lights on top of Golds Gym pointed to the Square across the street. I wonder how they will be used. Would be cool if they somehow were tied in to the crown lighting for tower #1 and the lighting changed for both at the same time.

HX_Guy

Mar 24, 2010, 8:10 PM

For some reason I am thinking those are temporary...they look way too out of place/afterthought where they are placed on top of Goldy's Gym.

gymratmanaz

Mar 24, 2010, 8:44 PM

I think they are on purpose and permanent. They have been lighting the PSP side each night in blue. I can't imagine they are using blue light to light the area for workers at night. Look at Glynnjamin's Youtube video to see a little of what it looks like.

glynnjamin

Mar 24, 2010, 9:13 PM

if you look closely at my video, you will see the worker sleeping at the end of the bridge. The blue light was definitely not for him...

Vicelord John

Mar 24, 2010, 9:16 PM

I'm gonna head over and take some pictures... maybe tonight. Anyone interested in joining and maybe getting some light grub?

Don B.

Mar 24, 2010, 10:09 PM

^ I'd join but already have plans, some of which including printing and mailing some photos for clients, which I have been remiss on getting out.

At your leisure, with all of your knowledge, John, you should consider putting together a little dining/bar guide for downtown Phoenix. For example, best places to go for:

Breakfast
Late night dining
High end
Mid Range
Low end
American
Asian
Mexican
No wait
Wait
Cheapest place to get shitfaced
College Hangouts
Bar grub
Gayest place
Roughest place
Most likely to get raped, robbed and shot at
Least likely...
etc. ad nauseum

Would be handy for a lot of people to carry in their cars or program into their phones.

Just a thought... :D

--don

phxbyrd

Mar 24, 2010, 10:14 PM

this isn't a bad idea, most of what they've done for the out of towners are hard to work with or no help at all.

glynnjamin

Mar 24, 2010, 10:24 PM

I can turn it into an app for WebOS

Tempe_Duck

Mar 25, 2010, 12:38 AM

I can turn it into an app for WebOS

That would be sick. BTW, loved the Spring training app. Didn't you say something about a ValleyMetro app?

HooverDam

Mar 25, 2010, 12:54 AM

So before I got my haircut downtown this afternoon (why yes it does look quite handsome, thank you for asking) I walked around and re-looked at Cityscape and its awful blank walls. I really think it has to be a bad zoning thing preventing them from covering it in signs/ads, otherwise why miss the boat on the potential profits like Glynn pointed out?

My thinking is, couldn't the city create some sort of special increased signage zone/district? Obviously we don't want Willo and Roosevelt over run with neon but Downtowns traditionally had lots of signs and thats a big part of what made them feel alive, exciting and special. Even Downtown Phoenix was once that way.

Once JSED happens (and I still think it will some day) that'll obviously be an increased signage area. West Van Buren from 7th Ave to Central if it ever develops into the high rise district with large retail like Urban Form has it penciled to be (aka our Michigan Ave) would also naturally be a fit for more signage promoting the retail. CityScape of course sits basically right between these two areas. So I'm thinking maybe the city could designate the following corridor as an increased signage district or something:

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/4161/signageareas.png

Now of course you wouldn't want historic buildings like the San Carlos just plastered in signs so you'd have to be careful and make it so that only large blank surfaces on buildings without articulation could put up signage. For instance we already have this to some degree with the Copper Square banners:
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/9161/p3240205.jpg

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/1383/p3240207.jpg

and the ASU University Center Building:
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/1535/p3240210.jpg

Like I said that area up Central did historically have more signage:
http://acmeron.com/puhs/7ck1144.jpg
http://acmeron.com/puhs/ph11-5.jpg
http://acmeron.com/puhs/c662.jpg

So we should try to revive that vibrant look.

Do we have any photoshop wizards here? If someone could take a photo like this one:
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/5354/p3240190.jpg

And show how much better it would look all gussied up w/ signs I think it would make a stronger point.

Id like to bring the issue up with someone like City Planner Carol Johnson and find out what the practicalities of at the very least allow for CityScape to replace the grey with signs and also in the future create a signage corridor like I suggested.

I also may bring it up with Downtown Voices and get their thoughts on it, they were instrumental in getting the ASU Nursing Building to have an entrance facing outward towards Fillmore and if they threw their support behind something like this it couldn't hurt.

Finally, Ive already thought of the potential issue with businesses and towers not located along the corridor wanting in on the action and calling foul. My thought was perhaps the Advertising profits could be split in an equitable way between the developer/property owner and the Downtown Phoenix Partnership. Or into a special City controlled fund to help pay for improvements like additional trees, landscaping, benches, shade structures, way finding tools, trash cans, drinking fountains, etc throughout downtown.

plinko

Mar 25, 2010, 1:13 AM

^It's an interesting idea, but I think you're jumping the gun a bit on being so worried about the gray stucco here. Vertical fins sticking out 12' at the intervals shown are going to create deep shadows on these faces. And since MOST people are still going to drive there, signage that sticks out is much better than signage on a building face.

Methinks once they get the signage bands up, your eyes will play the necessary trick on you and suddenly those facades won't be nearly as brutal. Maybe not...but it'll certainly be better than what is there now.

HooverDam

Mar 25, 2010, 1:16 AM

^Im highly doubting it from the examples youv'e posted. Either way, look at the historical pictures of Phoenix and all the signs. Look at LA Live, NYC, and zillions of other cities. Why shouldn't Phoenix have all of that and more? Too often we act like domestic abuse victims in this town. We keep getting kicked and pushed down and somehow dilute ourselves into thinking its all we deserve and all thats possible. At some point we need to say "knock it the fuck off, we want something better."

Vicelord John

Mar 25, 2010, 1:25 AM

It looks like the cultured marble they make showers with.

plinko

Mar 25, 2010, 1:36 AM

My 'example' was merely to demonstrate concept, not what this will look like by any means. This building is smaller, shorter, with future vertical elements that will be much, much larger than what we put on that Buckeye building. Trust me, unless you are standing directly across the street, you won't see large long expanses of gray like you see now (and even then it'll be broken up and in heavy shade).

As far as getting excited about signage, I sort of agree with you, but designating a seemingly random corridor creates a fairness problem for other developments and areas of downtown. But if what you are talking about starts to get anything like Dundas Square in Toronto (signage structures rather than buildings) I think it would be best left not allowed.

As far as Van Buren being Phoenix's 'Michigan Avenue'? I think you can get excited about such a thing when even ONE legitimate storefront opens on that stretch, but I wouldn't hold your breath. Washington and Central were historically DT Phoenix's shopping streets, but those have unfortunately been obliterated.

Vicelord John

Mar 25, 2010, 2:13 AM

exactly. We don't even have any empty storefronts. There simply aren't any places for stores. They are worse than suburban thoroughfares.

azliam

Mar 25, 2010, 2:46 AM

Well, we're almost finished with March; however, I specifically remember someone saying that the "crown" on CityScape was going to be lit sometime around mid-February. What happened?

HooverDam

Mar 25, 2010, 2:49 AM

Trust me, unless you are standing directly across the street, you won't see large long expanses of gray like you see now (and even then it'll be broken up and in heavy shade).

Why should anyone trust anything when it comes to this project? You remember what we were promised vs what we are getting, right? If you'd like I'll be happy to make a bet on how the finished product ends up looking, my bet: ass. It might be slightly better than how it is now but thats not saying a whole ton.

but designating a seemingly random corridor

What's "Seemingly random" about returning signage to VB and Central? Van Buren was always a glittering strip of neon, bright signs, etc. all the way out to where it becomes Apache and Main St in Tempe and Mesa. Central Ave was always a main shopping street with tons of signage as the pictures I posted show. The only new area you'd be adding a ton of signage to is actually Jackson St and that fits with the character of its proposed future use.

creates a fairness problem for other developments and areas of downtown.

Again: in order to avoid a fairness issue a portion of the profits from the signage (I don't know what portion that would be, maybe its a 50/50 split, that would have to be worked out) could go into a fund for either the DPP or to the city itself.

Obviously other cities allow for heavy signage in some areas, but not in others. So this bizarro line of thinking just doesn't add up. How does LA do it? NY? I don't know the specifics but I'd sure as hell hope our city planners do and could implement something similar. We've got to stop this insane obsession with why things can't be and focus on making them so.

Heck the signs could perhaps even be totally city owned and the profits totally kept by the city. Now of course not all the business would allow them, but the city could likely work out deals with some of them. Im not sure if thats the best solution or what exactly would be, but there is a solution and thats the important thing. I think as far as major cities go, Phoenix must be the only one so full of people who think things are the way they are by some divine providence, its odd.

As far as Van Buren being Phoenix's 'Michigan Avenue'? I think you can get excited about such a thing when even ONE legitimate storefront opens on that stretch, but I wouldn't hold your breath. Washington and Central were historically DT Phoenix's shopping streets, but those have unfortunately been obliterated.

Its beyond silly how people think "well thats not how things are now, thus they'll never be that way!" I'm not talking about VB changing in the next 5 or even 10 years, you've got to be able to look ahead and have some long term vision and planning when it comes to things like this. Posts like these make as much sense as someone in 1940 standing in downtown and saying "this is how it'll always be!"

Van Buren is the obvious choice for where larger retail would go for a variety of reasons. 1. Its the only place the new zoning (Urban Form) will allow it downtown, 2. Its currently has large undeveloped or under developed parcels, 3. Its going to be the area zoned for the highest density and greatest height, meaning the most potential for buildings above the retail that could support the retail, 4. Its a major thoroughfare with lots of eyes on it, which would benefit retail, 5. The proposed idea of a Historic Trolley running up Grand Ave could feed into the district if it ran over to the Central Station, 6. Due to its lack of being built up currently is one of the few long contiguous strips downtown that could have its sidewalks widened a great deal.

Again I'm not saying its a lock to happen, but if Downtown Phoenix ever develops a shopping street with big stores like Pennys, thats most certainly where it'll be.

glynnjamin

Mar 25, 2010, 5:33 AM

That would be sick. BTW, loved the Spring training app. Didn't you say something about a ValleyMetro app?

you know, i finished it, and then they changed their hours and I REALLY didn't want to take the time to go back and fix the times. They don't make it easy to find an HTML-based time table. Really frustrating. Glad you liked the Cactus League one. Have damn near 3000 downloads of that one. Think I'll be converting it into a MLB one for the season

dtnphx

Mar 25, 2010, 7:31 PM

This is from an upcoming zoning hearing regarding signage. It seems to be around Central and Adams, but it seems that there is a signage overly downtown.

1:30 p.m.
6. Application #: ZA-81-10-8 – (Sign)
Existing Zoning: DC
Location: 102 North Central Avenue
Block Location: 100 North – 000
Quarter Section: 10-27
Proposal: 1) Variance to allow 2 signs per entrance where the maximum of 1 sign per entrance is allowed. 2) Variance to allow 18 square feet of sign area where the maximum sign area allowed is 9 square feet. 3) Variance to allow a sign to project 10 feet into the public right-of-way where the maximum allowed is 3 feet. 4) Variance to allow a sign to be directly (internally) illuminated where indirectly illuminated from a shielded light source is required. 5) Use permit to allow permanent business identification on a nonconforming marquee in the Downtown Redevelopment Area. Use permit required.
Ordinance Sections: 643.H.1. 643.H.1.c. 643.H.1.d. 643.H.1.e. 705.F.1.c.
Applicant: Ramon Jimenez/Raytek Lighting LLC
Representative: Ramon Jimenez/Raytek Lighting LLC
Owner: Randall Raskin

gymratmanaz

Mar 25, 2010, 8:07 PM

Sounds like we read in the plans. grea news. Hope it works and passes!

glynnjamin

Mar 25, 2010, 8:39 PM

The variance for the internally illuminated sign is a good sign. Something to make the place stand out at night will be good. I just want to see a rendering of this damn thing when it is done. I go to the website and it is a video that still shows the three block plan. What a joke.

gymratmanaz

Mar 26, 2010, 10:19 PM

Scaffolding is now up for the first floor ceiling(2nd story floor) on the east half of the south side where the Chop House and all will go. I talked to Hunt contact. They are dutting up the 3 stories of east of the entrance ramp. The west side will go up when they start on the hotel.

I saw the new water feature going on the mesa. Looks cool.

Also, the water feature that goes down the east stairs is looking really awesome. It will flow down the stone structure, empty at the bottom street level by trickling down a stone feature, then dump into a lit pool. Nice detail!

plinko

Mar 26, 2010, 10:37 PM

Anybody have a photo or a plan of how the 'Mesa' empties out onto 1st Street?

gymratmanaz

Mar 26, 2010, 10:41 PM

Empties almost the same as onto Central. Stairs and an escalator. Stair stepped planting boxes of trees, vines, and other plants, plus the water feature.

Vicelord John

Mar 26, 2010, 10:55 PM

I might go up there tonight to take pictures. Anyone interested in meeting up and having a casual bite to eat?

HX_Guy

Mar 26, 2010, 11:02 PM

They are putting up the 3 stories of east of the entrance ramp. The west side will go up when they start on the hotel.

Shit! Are they just going to end up fencing the pad in like they did are Colliers?
Here's hoping that we don't end up with Colliers #2 in this respect...everything built up around an empty hotel pad.

hrivas

Mar 26, 2010, 11:09 PM

i believe this was originally posted by hx_guy, don't remember
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/hrivas08/3-1.jpg

PhxPavilion

Mar 27, 2010, 12:33 PM

Again I'm not saying its a lock to happen, but if Downtown Phoenix ever develops a shopping street with big stores like Pennys, thats most certainly where it'll be.

It most certainly will never happen as long as the sprawl paradigm exists here.

Vicelord John

Mar 28, 2010, 2:01 AM

Security: what are you doing up here?
Me: breaking in
security: really?
Me: no. Haha. Just taking pictures

pics to follow.

Vicelord John

Mar 28, 2010, 3:12 AM

SWC of Washington and Central:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/DSC_3368.jpg

Brits invading:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/DSC_3367.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/DSC_3366.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/DSC_3365.jpg

NEC Jefferson/1AVE
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/DSC_3362.jpg

This is a bridge:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/DSC_3358.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/DSC_3357.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/DSC_3356.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/DSC_3355.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/DSC_3350.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/DSC_3349.jpg

This motherfucker was asking to become fully paralyzed or something. He was going backward....
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/DSC_3369.jpg