Phoenix CityScape Thread

[HX_Guy]

Black = Current office tower under construction
White = Proposed condo/Palomar tower

http://nitnelav.com/Cityscapeheights.jpg

[HX_Guy]

Does anyone have easy view of the Cityscape site...or is going by the site today? I'm curious what's going on with that appears to be a 1/2 or 1/4 floor looking something.

If you look at the webcam view from Jan 3rd (left pic), you can clearly see the 3rd floor. In the view from today, you can see the 3rd floor and then it almost looks like a 4th floor...but it's very short...what is it?

http://wwc.instacam.com/instacamimg2/phbob/01032009/010320090956_l.jpghttp://wwc.instacam.com/instacamimg2/phbob/01082009/010820090959_l.jpg

[PHX31]

I can swing by in the early afternoon around 1... It's probably just be beginning of the next floor's forms/railings.

[Vicelord John]

hx, last night it looked as though they were standing on the 5th floor.

[HX_Guy]

hx, last night it looked as though they were standing on the 5th floor.

We're you drunk though? ;)

PHX31...that would be cool, let us know what you see...take a pic if you can.

[gymratmanaz]

Not sure what you mean, but i was there yesterday. The first three floors are done and tall. They also have the fourth floor going in and it is of shorter, regular, height. Maybe that is what you are seeing?

They are digging like mad on Central.

Also, almost all of the globe lights are down on PSP. I almost grabbed one for memory's sake. they are all laying about on the ground.

They have put the plumbing for the sales office in already, in the ground sticking up.

[HX_Guy]

Going further...it also looks like the elevator core has risen between the two photos. It's hard to tell, and maybe I'm seeing things :D , but look at both relative to Renaissance Center behind the core. In the left pic, there are these 4 strips, and in the right, there are only 3.

[Vicelord John]

We're you drunk though? ;)

PHX31...that would be cool, let us know what you see...take a pic if you can.

not at all it looked like they had 4 floors finished plus like 1/3 of the 5th floor was installed.

[Luke Skyscraper]

If anyone has a clear view of the building, see if you can see the guys working on the elevator core. That will tell us a lot about upward mobility in the near future.

[glynnjamin]

Wait, there are pieces of PSP just sitting around...? Time for me to wander south and see what my fingers can stick to. I'm a sucker for stealing stuff from demo'd buildings.

[CANUC]

Yeah, they have 3 completed floors and are framing for the 4th – which is what HX may be seeing – however the rebar columns extend as high as the 5th floor so I’m starting to wonder how many floors will be cast concrete before they switch to steel beams.

[gymratmanaz]

In accessible planting beds, there are light globes. I can't imagine they are saving them..... memories of old PSP???

HX, thanks for that elevation picture with heights. It makes it more exciting to know that Cityscape will peek above buildings, despite grumblings of "It should be taller".

[PHX31]

There were a bunch of people working on the building today. It looked to me like they were putting up the 5th story floor forms (4th story ceiling). Seemed like maybe floors 1 through 3 were very tall, and starting at floor 4 they reduce quite a bit. They also had already extended some of the column rebar up through floor 5. Didn't notice anyone working on the elevator shaft.

Some quick drive-by pictures:

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn20/azstate29/DSC00141.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn20/azstate29/DSC00142.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn20/azstate29/DSC00143.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn20/azstate29/DSC00145.jpg

light rail too, yay
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn20/azstate29/DSC00146.jpg

[shakman]

:previous: Nice little canyon when complete. I enjoy walking through urban canyons.

[HX_Guy]

It looks like the elevator core has jumped a floor since I last took pictures 2 days ago.

2 days ago (left) and the picture PHX31 took today...

http://nitnelav.com/cityscapepic123.jpghttp://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn20/azstate29/DSC00141.jpg

[gymratmanaz]

jumped 1....but the core can grow quickly it seems. I t now seems like they can add a floor every 3 days.

[HX_Guy]

Yea the floors are going up pretty fast, it's surprising. Two days ago, they were finishing up #3, and now they already have 1/2 of #4 up.

[HX_Guy]

:previous: Nice little canyon when complete. I enjoy walking through urban canyons.

Too bad that no towers will ever go up on Block 77 (Patriot's Square)...we could of really had a decent canyon effect. Maybe a tower will go up on Block 23 some day and then there will be 3 towers on the south side of Washigton.

[Luke Skyscraper]

HX
If you look closely at the picture on the left, you can see 2 workers in Orange vests with hard hats on the core (one on top, the other a little lower). The core surely has jumped since that photo. What is curious is that we never seem to see the concrete shooting arm moving or in action. Could they be doing it at night?

[PHX31]

/\That's what I was thinking... night crew for the core. maybe their concrete supplier or their contract with them is for night delivery only.

who knows...

[Luke Skyscraper]

The Force (of the core) works in mysterious ways!

[NorthScottsdale]

at least it has a core! the casino tower in scottsdale doesnt have a core! do they think people are gonna take stairs up and down the whole thing?

[plinko]

^You understand that elevator shafts don't HAVE to be concrete right?

[PhxPavilion]

Well that core can't get too much higher with the arm sitting upright before the tower crane has to be increased in height.

[NIXPHX77]

Perhaps they are doing the core at night. i was walking around downtown around 7 pm wed. nite and there were quite a few workers up on the bldg working away.
it was pretty neat because there was a good amount of vibrancy downtown:
people walking, traffic, lrt, buses, taxis, pedicabs, construction crews, the UPRR train whistle, etc. it was the most active i think i've ever seen DT at night.
to be fair, there was a suns game, an event at the Herberger, and another at
the Orpheum.
on a sad note, a jewelry store (michael's?) on Central near Adams is moving out after 55 years at that location.

[NorthScottsdale]

^You understand that elevator shafts don't HAVE to be concrete right?

ummm.. what else is it gonna be? is it gonna be a solid steel collumn? i dont know much about elevator shafts but i dont know how else they make them?

[LAFINDOG]

at least it has a core! the casino tower in scottsdale doesnt have a core! do they think people are gonna take stairs up and down the whole thing?

The Elevators at the casino are on the exterior of the building if memory serves me correct. Still, they carry a hefty fire-rating which as a general rule is obtained with a concrete core. Perhaps they are going to come back later and pour the concrete. Just a thought....

[HX_Guy]

on a sad note, a jewelry store (michael's?) on Central near Adams is moving out after 55 years at that location.

I noticed that too...why surprised me, especially now that the light rail is up and running. Do you think their rent is going up maybe?

[DER-XE]

i assume that the first three floors have higher clear height because they are retail/restaurant/office lobby and the gym is on the 3rd floor overlooking central. Most "retail" space has more clear height than office space.........

[HX_Guy]

Wait...gym? What gym?

[DER-XE]

New fitness facility for DT, believe a Golds Gym..........shown on leasing plan on third floor of office tower on the west end looking down on central, the park, washington........could be pretty cool if done right and is needed in DT

[HX_Guy]

Nice! I heard about the Golds Gym, just had no idea it was going in the office tower...I figured it would go in on Block 77.

What else do you have shown on the leasing plan. ;)

[HX_Guy]

Lots of new rebar is up for the core...

http://wwc.instacam.com/instacamimg4/phbob/01092009/010920091038_l.jpg

They also need to raise the crane if they want to be able to use that concrete arm, maybe it'll happen this weekend?

[DER-XE]

i have seen a number of leasing plans, but like everything else, not sure what will really happen on site

[gymratmanaz]

i reported the Golds Gym, but i think i did it in the Phoenix Page a week ago or so...my bad.

[Hysonk]

I noticed that too...why surprised me, especially now that the light rail is up and running. Do you think their rent is going up maybe?

Sad to hear Michael's Jeweler's is closing. I used to live across the street from Mr. Strong (Michael). He's a very sweet, kind man with a terrific family but he's got to be in his late 70s now, so I'm guessing he's just retiring.

[HX_Guy]

Where is this meeting at? Is it open to the public?

As for Michael's Jewelers...they are not closing, they are moving, which is why I was wondering if their rent is going up or what is causing them to move.

[gymratmanaz]

So Tuesday morning will be like Christmas to us!!!!!

[Hysonk]

Removed

[glynnjamin]

Michaels had a closing sign almost a year ago. It's not new info.

[plinko]

The Elevators at the casino are on the exterior of the building if memory serves me correct. Still, they carry a hefty fire-rating which as a general rule is obtained with a concrete core. Perhaps they are going to come back later and pour the concrete. Just a thought....

For Type I construction (towers such as the casino tower or Cityscape), the elevator shaft needs to be 4 hour fire rated. TYPICALLY this is done using either poured-in place concrete, precast concrete, or masonry. HOWEVER, it can be done with steel frame construction and multiple layers of gypsum board on both sides. The code doesn't specify which, it's up to the engineer and architect (and ultimately the owner, based on cost).

What you don't know is that the casino tower doesn't have to meet ANY of these code requirements. No state codes, no city codes, no federal codes. They are a sovereign nation and as such, have the ability to set their own life safety and building standards. In the case of the casino tower, the tribe, the operators, and engineers and architects had the unique ability to design to a set life safety standard, but without being locked into more typical 'over-engineered' solutions.

[Vicelord John]

Michaels had a closing sign almost a year ago. It's not new info.

or chaunakah to our jewey brothers and sisters.

[HX_Guy]

Cityscape is going to look awesome...

http://nitnelav.com/DTSkylineJan0709_2.jpg

[admdavid]

^^^Great pic! Can't wait to see the Wachovia (?) tower complete!

[PHXguyinOKC]

not going to be a wachovia tower. wells fargo purchased wachovia.

[gymratmanaz]

HX...Where did you get that picture of Cityscape? It is awesome. Wish there was a camera mounted there to see hourly updates!!!!!!

[Vicelord John]

Just because wells fargo bought wachovia doesnt mean tgey wont continue to opeamrate under the wachovia name.

[admdavid]

not going to be a wachovia tower. wells fargo purchased wachovia.

Oh, I know but until we have a new "official" name for the tower, that's what I call it. :)

On a side note, I bought a new car in November and my lien holder is Wachovia.

[gymratmanaz]

Can't wait to hear about tomorrow's Cityscape meeting. GOOD NEWS ONLY PLEASE!!!!!!

[Vicelord John]

adam david that means your car is free

[Hysonk]

Removed

[gymratmanaz]

What time should we start looking for your report? No pressure, but we will expect nothing but great news...."Kill the messenger?"

[Vicelord John]

gym rat man, settle down compadre, it'll happen.

I just picked a booger.

[HX_Guy]

I'll post as soon as my fingerbones hit the keyboard!

MattD...what questions do you have lined up to ask? Maybe we could brainstorm some stuff here.

[CPVLIVE]

Just because wells fargo bought wachovia doesnt mean tgey wont continue to opeamrate under the wachovia name.

Wachovia is toast. Here's a Q&A off of their website.

1. When will Wachovia and Wells Fargo become one bank?

There are two important dates that will be of interest to you.
Starting January 1, 2009 Wachovia Corporation is part of Wells Fargo & Co. Because Wells Fargo Bank, N.A. and Wachovia Bank, N.A. are still separate banks, there are no immediate changes to your accounts at this time. Our goal is to proceed carefully to do what is right for our customers, and it may take several months to begin our integration activities.
The second important date will be when Wachovia Bank and Wells Fargo Bank combine to become a single bank (known as Integration). In the months ahead, we will decide when Integration activities will occur. You will receive personal communication well in advance with specific information on how it may affect you.

2. Will the name of the bank change to Wells Fargo?

Yes, once Integration occurs, you will see the name and signage change to Wells Fargo.

3. What happens to the Wachovia ticker (WB)?

Wachovia’s stock symbol “WB” has been retired effective December 31, 2008 – Wells Fargo stock trades under the symbol WFC.

[gymratmanaz]

Vicelord - IS IT TUESDAY YET?

-and about that bugger thing..TMI. :)

[admdavid]

adam david that means your car is free

Sweet! I'll stop sending payments immediately! ;)

[Vicelord John]

I done learned something about that there wakovea bank

[Hysonk]

Removed

[HX_Guy]

I'd like to know more about Tower 2...specifically the construction schedule (which you mentioned) but also if the option of no condos is on the table, of doing a hotel only or a hotel/office.

[Luke Skyscraper]

MattD
See if you can get clarification on what restaurants/retail/grocer are still officially on board. I am not sure if PF Changs is officially dead or not- I have seen conflicting information. I am especially anxious to see the height of the second tower- to see if we get a new "second tallest"! Give em hell!

[LAFINDOG]

HX
You might want to ask him if they have the money to build any of it.....looking more like Collier everyday.

[Hysonk]

Developers may be seeing RED in 2009

Dan Lowe, a founding partner of RED Development LLC, said he doesn’t foresee many developers coming out of the ground with new retail construction in 2009.

One exception will be his firm, which will go vertical with the CityScape retail and office development in Phoenix and two projects in Missouri.

RED, which operates dual headquarters in Scottsdale and Kansas City, Mo., was able to blunt the recession’s effects by securing a commitment for $200 million from a pension fund to provide the additional equity for projects that lenders now require. But that’s not to say RED is immune to the recession.

One project affected is Prasada, a 3,355-acre mixed-use project in Surprise. The first phase, scheduled to open in 2009, was pushed back to 2010.
----
So hopefully, some of that $200M will go to fund Cityscape.

[reguyphx]

How about asking if they have a construction loan commitment for Tower 1? I know they have an equity commitment, but I have not read about any construction loan commitment. Key bank has provided some financing, but not enough to complete the project.

[gymratmanaz]

and pictures if available!

[glynnjamin]

It's Tuesday, right?

[gymratmanaz]

Yes

[Hysonk]

Removed.

[PHX31]

Thanks for all of the information... it sounds like the bad news is worse than the good news good. I guess the amount of retail being leased is good.

[Hysonk]

Removed

[CANUC]

Yeah, I didn’t want to be the first one to take a shat on your report but we got a whole lot more bad than good that’s for sure. Maybe I’m reading to much into this but they are essentially saying that the hotel/condo tower isn’t going to happen but building the hotel and the condos is conditional on sales. Followed by Between 44 Monroe, Summit and Orpheum Lofts, only 1 unit sold in the past few months. Which equates to “it aint gonna happen fellas”.

[gymratmanaz]

Any new pictures or plans available?

[HX_Guy]

What did you mean by "below level retail will be completed"?

As in underground or as in street level below the hotel/condo portion?

[Hysonk]

Removed

[glynnjamin]

If you ask me, the increase in retail is a giant plus. We've always complained about the catch 22. No one lives here so no shops open. Now, both AZ Center and CityScape are getting massive interest in their retail spaces. Once stuff is downtown, people will move downtown. I think that if we get some decent stores (maybe that H&M that was supposed to go into Tempe Mkplc) then people will want to buy the condos.

I'm still pissed about the project and think we are going be left holding our dicks when the whole thing is done...but I can see the positive news. Maybe it's because I resigned myself to smaller towers a while back.

[HX_Guy]

There is an article in the Business Journalfrom today that talks about how Phoenix will remqin the regional hub for Wells Fargo, which is good news but it also says that a decision on the Cityscape lease will come in a few weeks.
You mentioned that they are bound by the lease, but I assume nothing is ever set in concrete...they can probably break it and pay a fee.

[PHX NATIVE 929]

Tuesday, January 13, 2009, 10:30am MST

Phoenix to be Wells Fargo regional hub

Phoenix Business Journal - by Chris Casacchia

Phoenix will remain a regional hub for Wells Fargo & Co., following its acquisition of the embattled Wachovia Corp.

Phoenix will be the headquarters for the San Francisco-based bank’s (NYSE:WFC) new four-state Desert Mountain region, which includes Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico and now Oregon.

Gerrit van Huisstede will continue as president for the expanded region. Van Huisstede has more than 27 years experience in the financial services industry, most of it with Wells Fargo and its predecessors in Arizona.

In 1998, he was named executive vice president and regional manager for Wells Fargo in the Phoenix metro area. Van Huisstede was tapped as regional president and CEO for Wells Fargo Arizona in 2001, and in 2004 became regional president for the Wells Fargo’s Desert Mountain area, which included Arizona and New Mexico. In 2005, he was given additional responsibility for the company’s banking operations in Nevada.

The acquisition, finalized Dec. 31, boosted Wells’ presence to 39 states and 11,000 stores, and provided entrance to markets in Alabama, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Kansas, Maryland, Mississippi, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia and Washington, D.C.

Wells acquired Charlotte, N.C.-based Wachovia in a stock-for-stock deal, with Wachovia shareholders receiving 0.1991 shares of Wells Fargo stock for each share of Wachovia. The combined entity has $14 trillion in assets. At mid-morning Tuesday, Wells stock was trading slightly above $24.

A day before the deal closed, the Phoenix Business Journal reported Wells was cutting 53 jobs at its auto loan center in Tempe as result of the pending merger.

In October 2007, Wachovia completed the conversion of 15 World Savings Bank branches it acquired in 2006 through California-based Golden West Financial Corp. In that $23.5 billion deal, Wachovia netted 285 branches in 10 states, including Arizona, as well as a large portfolio of bad real estate loans.

A year later, Wachovia announced it would anchor the 600,000-square-foot CityScape office tower in downtown Phoenix. Since then, the bank suffered billions in losses and ousted its CEO as it teetered on collapse.

A decision on the CityScape lease could come in a few weeks.

[HX_Guy]

What retail are they adding? It looks to me that they have trimmed down the retail to me...it was oroginally 225k sq ft if I remember correctly and now Im seeing 180k.

[admdavid]

I'm hoping the condo tower doesn't pencil out at all now based on that information. I'd rather they not build anything than build the stunted tower being proposed now. What's the point? What a disappointment this has turned into!

[Hysonk]

Removed.

[Vicelord John]

wow you guys are wishy washy.

You guys would rather have nothing than a 400 foot condo/hotel tower?

[admdavid]

wow you guys are wishy washy.

You guys would rather have nothing than a 400 foot condo/hotel tower?

For the 0'0' block of the 5th largest city in the US? Hell, yeah! If they aren't going to build something worthy of the location, I'd prefer they not do anything and build something in the future where they can build to the 525' limit. Why force a turd of a building in this current economy when they can wait to do something when it's actually profitable?

[Downtown_resident]

Wachovia signed a lease, so it is binding. If Wells decides not to move in, they can sublet it out, but essentially are on the hook for it.

On the retail stuff, they were the most animated when discussing these big tenants that are just clammoring to get in. We'll see. The condo tower height thing is the thing that bums me out. 400.' Meh.

You're bummed about 400 feet? After reading your report (thanks for the work, btw) I will be shocked if anything is built. This project is in meltdown mode.

http://downtownphoenix.blogspot.com

[Urban Rising]

I would argue that even a 400' tower now is better than wishing for a bigger and better one later. A vibrant core is critical to the long-term growth of this city and there are plenty of under utilized locations throughout downtown that can make for a new tallest. There is nothing that says the tallest has to be in the center. We need residents more than anything else to build downtown. We currently have no indicators showing when the next building boom will be. We should be greatful for the one we just had and try and squeeze every last building out of it possible. People are the key. We need more condos (affordable) and apartments.

I was downtown Sunday and it was a ghost town after 5:00 PM

[PHX31]

I was downtown Sunday and it was a ghost town after 5:00 PM

That's weird you say that. I was at the gym (DT Y) with my friend (who works as a lawyer in one of the downtown towers) yesterday. We were talking a bit about the light rail, then he asked me if I had been to Hanny's. Eventually he started talking about how he was working last night (Sunday) and went to get some dinner. He walked by Hanny's and went to the Matador, and everything he walked by was really busy. He even went as far to ask the hostess what was going on downtown that made it so busy.. she told him nothing. He was asking me if I knew of anything happening and I didn't know, but Sunday night places were pretty busy, with nothing apparently going on. Maybe it's the light rail or the Sheraton or convention center or something? But, according to my friend it wasn't a ghost town at all, rather surprisingly busy.

[glynnjamin]

Sort of depends on what area of downtown you are in on Sunday night. Traditionally, in AZ, a large group of people (LDS) don't go out on Sunday...add to that Jack Bauer was on Sunday night...I don't blame people for staying in. This city has never been lively on Sunday. Remember when you couldn't even buy booze on Sunday...

[Vicelord John]

Um, all this week (starting sunday) there is a conference of 7500 people at the convention center.

[PHX31]

/\ That must be why... our convention center is already paying for itself!

[scottkag]

Um, all this week (starting sunday) there is a conference of 7500 people at the convention center.

Yeah there have been lots of people walking the streets near the convention center this week. I guess it is the first major event at the new and improved convention center.

[Vicelord John]

Yeah, and it really annoyed me the other night when I couldn't get into Hooters. I mean seriously, who goes to hooters? Thats like my "im gonna go there because it is quiet, cheap, and shitty fast food with tits" option. And all those people flooded it to the gills.

[Jsmscaleros]

Yeah, and it really annoyed me the other night when I couldn't get into Hooters. I mean seriously, who goes to hooters? Thats like my "im gonna go there because it is quiet, cheap, and shitty fast food with tits" option. And all those people flooded it to the gills.

Personally, I'd rather take my business to the Tilted Kilt when I want shitty food with cleavage. Slightly better eating and scenery in my opinion. Maybe they'll put one in CityRape.

[Vicelord John]

Thats an especially great option for me. I think you're right I should dive to Tempe/Chandler and go to Tilted Kilt, then drive home obliterated.

It is a much better option than walking 3 blocks to Hooters.

[Jsmscaleros]

Hey, most of the Phoenix Suns would do it.

[pbenjamin]

Remember when you couldn't even buy booze on Sunday...

No. I have been here since the 70's and you have always been able to buy alcohol on Sunday, although you used to have to wait until after noon.

[HooverDam]

Id certainly take a 400 footer on the 0'0 spot and waiting for something better to be built. We've had a zillion multiphased projects and waited for something awesome in the 2nd phase, and it never happens. 400 feet is a good size for a building in Phx, it would be taller than 44 Monroe and right about the same size as the US Bank building which makes a good dent on the skyline being downtowns 2nd tallest. I think a 400 footer on the south end of downtown would look great.

[gymratmanaz]

I agree. Take what we can get now. The block next to it could be ripe for tallest. If the two blocks of Cityscape do well, more will come to join in the fun!

[reguyphx]

I hate to be negative, but I'm with downtown resident, this could turn into a stalled construction site. I know they say they have secured financing and have a $200 million equity commitment, but RED never talks about a construction loan. They needed the additional equity to try and get a construction loan. A lot of projects start with equity until financing is arranged, but in this market a construction loan will be tough to get. I guess they could build the project with no debt, but that seems unreasonable. If they had a signed construction loan agreement they would be making a big announcement, god knows they make a press release for everything else.

[HX_Guy]

Looks like my memory was correct...the original plans called for much more retail space then they currently touting as "added retail space"...

In the press release from back in October 2007, it said "+/- 250,000 square feet of retail and restaurants"...and now it's +/- 180,000 sq ft. That's a pretty significant drop and if I also remember correctly, the agreement with the City required that they have a min. of 225k sq ft...guess they altered that agreement again.

By the way...what happened to the notes posted from the meeting and to the guy that posted them, looks like he changed his user name and removed all the posts?

[Tempe_Duck]

Ok, I might be missing something, but I thought MattD, was going to the meeting today and giving us details. I see people talking about CityScape but I don't see the post that stated it. I see nothing from MattD but I do see a bunch of removed posts from Hysonk. What am I missing?

--Thanks

[HX_Guy]

For some reason, MattD is now Hysonk and has deleted what was posted. I'm guessing maybe he wasn't supposed to say what was said at the meeting? I don't know.