Phoenix CityScape Thread

[phxSUNSfan]

Remember also that 44 Monroe was built as a condo tower, not apartments so higher ceilings and bigger units.

I don't think that makes too much of a difference in this type of project and for this market. Most luxury highrises, apartments and condos, have the same specs but differ when it comes to interior design and amenities (custom cabinets vs standard, cookie-cutter models, hardwood flooring vs carpet or tile, etc).

[plinko]

^ Do your measurements account for the center portion of any tower taken up by the central mechanic/stairwell core?

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=5457471&postcount=6873

I don't know how much of the core in this is apartment mechanical that continues up and hotel mechanical, that, what, stops? Center core/corridors/etc certainly affects net square feet.

Yes, without diagramming it, I think I took the center 1000sf out or so (30'x30'ish).

And to phxSUNSfan: not a chance you get 15ft ceilings. Not even close. Aside from the penthouse floor(s), you'd be lucky to get more than 10ft FLOOR TO FLOOR. SOP for tall apartment buildings just about anywhere (aside from random uber luxury towers).

[phxSUNSfan]

Yes, although I don't think I took enough room.

Without diagramming it, I think I took the center 2000sf out or so.

And to phxSUNSfan: not a chance you get 15ft ceilings. Not even close. Aside from the penthouse floor(s), you'd be lucky to get more than 10ft FLOOR TO FLOOR. SOP for tall apartment buildings just about anywhere (aside from random uber luxury towers).

If they do cutback enough that they only offer a 10ft floor to ceiling average throughout the entire building, then they could squeeze the project into roughly 425ft.

Still a rather tall building. But yeah, I was most likely overestimating...

NOTE: apartments in 44 Monroe and West 6th in Tempe have units from about 780ft² to 4,800ft² and 507ft² to 2,300ft² respectively. The 4,800ft² floor plans were the original sizes of the penthouses. I'm not sure if they remained that large when they were converted to apartments.

[Don B.]

I feel like we are divining the entrails of some random bird in the hopes that Phoenix's uber-pathetic skyline might get another 400-foot plus tower out of this. LOL...

I'm going to San Diego in less than two weeks...that will give me my urban fix I've been jonesing for. :)

--don

[nickw252]

Not all units have 15 foot ceilings; some have 12 and I think the smallest have 9 or 10 foot ceilings. The 10 floor garage also shrinks the overall height of 44 Monroe...If RED wants the new apartments to be competitive and offer an advantage over their neighbors they will likely offer taller ceilings and nice floor plans.

The unit my friend lives in on the 28th floor definitely does not have 15' ceilings. I installed ceiling fans and was able to reach the ceiling with my modest ladder.

How much below ground parking does the building have? Is there enough to reserve 200+/- for apartments?

[phxSUNSfan]

The unit my friend lives in on the 28th floor definitely does not have 15' ceilings. I installed ceiling fans and was able to reach the ceiling with my modest ladder.

How much below ground parking does the building have? Is there enough to reserve 200+/- for apartments?

Floor plans and location dictate ceiling heights; the lowest ceiling height in the building is 10.5 ft...

There is plenty of parking and likely every resident wouldn't have a car.

[KEVINphx]

This building is a fantastic addition downtown. It's sleek and modern and beautiful, especially up close. Love it.

had to double-take because I thought YOU were ME! lol

[gymratmanaz]

I just did a little sneaking in and a walk through of the new night club going in that will be attached to Lucky Strike. The drywall, rooms, and bar areas are all finished. If they keep working, I bet it might be done in a couple of months. it really has a cool layout.

[Vicelord John]

Didn't know there was going to be a night club there.

[gymratmanaz]

I had heard months ago that they were planning on it, but now it is happening. They are taking the entire rest of the 2nd floor for it.

[Vicelord John]

great, more minority bars on Washington street to produce gunshots

[phxSUNSfan]

great, more minority bars on Washington street to produce gunshots

What? LOL

The "minority" nightclubs downtown are hardly worrisome. There was one shooting outside the Matador a couple of years ago but it is hardly violent in any downtown scene. There isn't anything happening at minority clubs like Amsterdam or Club Dwntown (a mostly Latino nightclub)...

Besides the presence of more police in downtown this CityScape club will probably be more like Lucky Strike Lounge and Copper Blues...plenty of whites so you won't feel too threatened by us darker skinned variety. ;)

[Vicelord John]

What? LOL

The "minority" nightclubs downtown are hardly worrisome. There was one shooting outside the Matador a couple of years ago but it is hardly violent in any downtown scene. There isn't anything happening at minority clubs like Amsterdam or Club Dwntown (a mostly Latino nightclub)...

I have lived at 7th and washington for 5.5 years now, and I've known of at least 4 shootings from fights in those bars. There are fights all the time coming from those too. Those bars are full of young kids who are gangbangers and the bar owners are not good neighbors because they cater to that demographic.

[phxSUNSfan]

I have lived at 7th and washington for 5.5 years now, and I've known of at least 4 shootings from fights in those bars. There are fights all the time coming from those too. Those bars are full of young kids who are gangbangers and the bar owners are not good neighbors because they cater to that demographic.

Haven't found any police reports of gun violence in the area in sometime. Given the police presence you would think something like that would be reported. I've lived in Phoenix, northern end of downtown (Roosevelt), since late '08/early '09 and don't see much going on. Haven't seen any fights at those clubs either: but then I've only been to Bar Smith and the other one a few times in my 3.5 years here.

I've always wondered how long those clubs would remain given the shifting demographics of downtown. I'm surprised another gay club or more eclectic place hasn't taken over at least one space...

[azcats]

Can't resist to chime in here. I do recall a few months back that I got chastised for bringing up the fact that the medical school downtown is the University of Arizona Medical school...and yet,folks right there think it is asu's ...when asu doesn't even have a medical school. (Mayo Clinic medical school students also receiving a masters in hotel management from asu - or, something like that -it is not the same thing) I thought that was somewhat relevant...considering that it was downtown Phoenix.
Not sure of the relevance of discussion of minorities to City Scape/ downtown, etc., however. It was also confusing to me since I live here in L.A. county...and I'm a minority. As a white male, I am part of just 27% of the population. Latinos make up nearly 50% ...blacks 12%...Asians 13%. I still was not sure who was in the minority as I read a study that indicated that Latinos make up of nearly 80% of the population within a 5 mile radius of downtown Phoenix.
However, now that the discussion has started...the reality is that whites with money are going to be very reluctant to move nearby downtown. Maybe, it is a perception rather than reality...however, I own a small unit near downtown...in a very nice neighborhood. I would like to buy more...however, the few nice neighborhoods of downtown Phoenix are very expensive - between Central and 7th Ave. I am very reluctant to buy in Garfield or, south of downtown...or, west of 7th Ave. Even Coronado is hit or miss. If I am afraid to drive in those neighborhoods at night...they're not safe.
...stick to pictures...you guys put up some nice photos....and I get to see what is going on.

[phxSUNSfan]

Can't resist to chime in here. I do recall a few months back that I got chastised for bringing up the fact that the medical school downtown is the University of Arizona Medical school...and yet,folks right there think it is asu's ...when asu doesn't even have a medical school. (Mayo Clinic medical school students also receiving a masters in hotel management from asu - or, something like that -it is not the same thing) I thought that was somewhat relevant...considering that it was downtown Phoenix.
Not sure of the relevance of discussion of minorities to City Scape/ downtown, etc., however. It was also confusing to me since I live here in L.A. county...and I'm a minority. As a white male, I am part of just 27% of the population. Latinos make up nearly 50% ...blacks 12%...Asians 13%. I still was not sure who was in the minority as I read a study that indicated that Latinos make up of nearly 80% of the population within a 5 mile radius of downtown Phoenix.
However, now that the discussion has started...the reality is that whites with money are going to be very reluctant to move nearby downtown. Maybe, it is a perception rather than reality...however, I own a small unit near downtown...in a very nice neighborhood. I would like to buy more...however, the few nice neighborhoods of downtown Phoenix are very expensive - between Central and 7th Ave. I am very reluctant to buy in Garfield or, south of downtown...or, west of 7th Ave. Even Coronado is hit or miss. If I am afraid to drive in those neighborhoods at night...they're not safe.
...stick to pictures...you guys put up some nice photos....and I get to see what is going on.

I don't think anyone is confused on UofA's medical school downtown (obviously those you spoke to were misinformed). UofA and ASU were in partnership for research and healthcare innovation but that ended in 2010 when ASU decided to go it alone and in a different direction. But one of AU's buildings downtown still has signage with both schools on it; that might be an issue that confuses a few people. ASU's medical degrees in partnership with the Mayo Clinic has nothing to do with hospitality (hotel management) but instead ASU offers a Master's in Hospital Administration among others: ASU's premed program is designed to meet Mayo's standards.

The Central City precinct is one of the least violent in Phoenix. We have South Mountain and Cactus precincts to fill that bubble. I would say that Garfield is not somewhere I'd live now (because there is little in terms of renovated units) but the western edge isn't horrible. Coronado isn't in downtown. The only downtown neighborhoods with homes are Roosevelt, Willo, Evans-Churchill, etc and they tend to be expensive places. West of 7th Ave (outside of downtown) is FQ Story and Encanto-Palmcroft; two VERY expensive neighborhoods. It is cheaper south of Roosevelt but also more like Garfield.

As for the minority conversation it was concerning a new club opening up in CityScape. VL John speculated that it would be a minority club like a few in downtown Phoenix. However, I have a feeling it will be more like Copper Blues than PHX Nightclub.

[Vicelord John]

However, now that the discussion has started...the reality is that whites with money are going to be very reluctant to move nearby downtown. Maybe, it is a perception rather than reality...however, I own a small unit near downtown...in a very nice neighborhood. I would like to buy more...however, the few nice neighborhoods of downtown Phoenix are very expensive - between Central and 7th Ave. I am very reluctant to buy in Garfield or, south of downtown...or, west of 7th Ave. Even Coronado is hit or miss. If I am afraid to drive in those neighborhoods at night...they're not safe.
...stick to pictures...you guys put up some nice photos....and I get to see what is going on.

If you're afraid to drive through those neighborhoods at night, you're a pussy.

talk about perception vs. reality. Random violence in this city is so rare... I've walked in every neighborhood nearby (Oakland, Garfield, south of downtown, Eastlake, etc.) and never once been frightened or felt vulnerable.

[renone]

I told you previously that my company was looking into leasing the alleged office space above the kimpton hotel, but then they changed the office space to residential and we are now looking elsewhere. I just learned that my company will be getting pitched by competeing presentations from the Collier Group, which plans to build a high rise on Washington between CitiScape and the B of A building, and Gollub, which plans to build a high rise near 2nd Ave and Monroe. Both are courting us as a future tenant.

Of course, I knew about the Collier Group building but I did not know about the other proposed project. Sorry if this is old news.

[PHX31]

That's very interesting news. First, I thought the area between CityScape and the BofA Tower was planned to be residential condos (and thusly likely vacant forever). Second, that's cool that the 2nd Ave/Monroe tower isn't just a pipe dream either, they're actively looking for tenants.

Renone: Your company is possibly interested in leasing something that won't be available for another 2+ years?

[renone]

Yes. Our lease doesn't expire for another three years.

[HX_Guy]

Damn that's awesome! Either tower would be great and it's awesome hearing that other towers are being planned for downtown.

[gymratmanaz]

I smell a beer coming my way from someone if this continues to come true. :)

[HX_Guy]

Lades and gentleman!!! Do you see what we have here!

:banana::banana::banana:

Permit# PHAS-0705627-16 Issue Date Expires 3/1/13
Permit Description APARTMENT STRUCTURE
Project 06-5309 CITYSCAPE


And on a funny note...check out how this permit was entered in the system. Type or on purpose? :haha:

http://nitnelav.com/bastard.jpg

[Tempe_Duck]

Lades and gentleman!!! Do you see what we have here!

:banana::banana::banana:



And on a funny note...check out how this permit was entered in the system. :haha:

http://nitnelav.com/bastard.jpg

I don't get it? What is funny about the permit?

[PhxER]

:previous:
Its Arrogant Butcher not Bastard

[JimInCal]

Funny typo. I wonder if whoever entered that is a fan of Stone Brewing Company in San Diego County. They make Arrogant Bastard Ale. If any of you are ever in North SD County (Escondido) Stone has a really nice set-up ... gardens, restaurant, store, tours of the brewery, oh yah and beer (actually from all over the world, not just theirs). You can make a nice afternoon of it there. I personnally like their "Sublimely Self-Righteous Ale".

[Vicelord John]

I don't get it? What is funny about the permit?

Arrogant Bastard is a beer. I make this same mistake, and have said that to many people. It's obvious the person who typed that is a beer drinker.

[gymratmanaz]

HX...are there any specs on the permit....height?

[combusean]

^ There's nothing on the permit. It's actually oddly blank in Phoenix's DSD system.

[Tempe_Duck]

Arrogant Bastard is a beer. I make this same mistake, and have said that to many people. It's obvious the person who typed that is a beer drinker.

haha, I even know that beer and I didn't catch it.

[nickw252]

Cornhole:

http://i43.tinypic.com/lgrdh.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/23svm2x.jpg

University of Louisville Band and Alumni:

http://i41.tinypic.com/16hrmt5.jpg

[PHX31]

Beer pong? Ie cornhole

[nickw252]

Beer pong? Ie cornhole

Wow I'm getting old. I can't even get my drinking game names right :haha:

[Vicelord John]

Beer pong? Ie cornhole

Two totally different games

[plinko]

Just another example of why Cityscape is such an unimaginative development, here's a similarly scaled project (though it is a full shopping mall) that just opened in Salt Lake City:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=198420

Not even talking about the architecture of the buildings, look how the overall development addresses multiple blocks and both the street frontage and internal courtyards. Transit integrated, second floor retail that actually works, and circulation and massing that looks like it fits into the cityscape, rather than being a singular development within it.

If you took Collier, the three Cityscape blocks, and Luhrs block and the one to the immediate east and built a development like this, what a wonderful integrated patch you've made into the quilt of downtown. Augment that by the proximity of the arena entry and the convention center?

But alas...Phoenix gives up it's 0,0 point for a bland office tower, a stumpy hotel, and a couple of poorly designed low buildings with a 'park' space between and really poor circulation. Awesome.

BTW, I realize that a huge portion of the money for City Creek in SLC comes from Zions Bank (basically an arm of the LDS Church) so they don't have exactly the same economic constraints of spec developers, but still...

...it would have been nice to see a little more vision and creativity...

[phxSUNSfan]

AHHHHH! I mean the color variations are MUCH nicer than CityScape, but the scale of the SLC project is many times larger as well. In order to build something like that in downtown Phoenix, despite all the vacant lots, there would still need to be demolition and merging of lots; wiping out the small blocks of downtown.

It's really just a suburban development in downtown. Too many new downtown developments suffer from this (Seattle's Westlake and Pacific Place for example). It reminds me of the Scottsdale Quarter, Chandler Fashion Center, Desert Ridge, Kierland Commons, etc etc...

Luckily, or maybe not since so many new downtown developments look like this, downtown Phoenix doesn't have the footprint for such a massive, inorganic strip of sterile suburban shopping. CityScape offers enough sterility for downtown, we don't need it expanded. If those blocks along Washington and Jefferson ever do develop into a massive shopping destination at least the developments won't blend together in such a fake, non-urban manner. With the Luhrs buildings, CityScape, Barrister, Collier, etc. all looking very different, a more organic feel will emerge. And stores will be forced to face the streets/sidewalks.

This is a huge plus for SLC in that the development is located downtown, and next to transit, instead of in the suburbs. If only that amount of shopping was in downtown here it would be impressive.

[plinko]

AHHHHH! I mean the color variations are MUCH nicer than CityScape, but the scale of the SLC project is many times larger as well. In order to build something like that in downtown Phoenix, despite all the vacant lots, there would still need to be demolition and merging of lots; wiping out the small blocks of downtown.

I wasn't talking about the overall scope or tenants of the project, but the importance of its connections of disparate parts.

But since you brought it up, 1st Street to 3rd Street, Washington to Madison is the EXACT same footprint as City Creek - 1600ft x 800ft (if you integrated the main entry of the arena into the design).

That type of public-private enterprise might have created something of alot more substance (and wouldn't have required bulldozing anything worth saving).

[phxSUNSfan]

But since you brought it up, 1st Street to 3rd Street, Washington to Madison is the EXACT same footprint as City Creek - 1600ft x 800ft (if you integrated the main entry of the arena into the design).

That type of public-private enterprise might have created something of alot more substance (and wouldn't have required bulldozing anything worth saving).

Exactly, if something like this were built downtown it would NOT be inward-facing and all the shops would have to face the street. That OR many historic structures would have to be bulldozed (Luhrs Center and Tower, Barrister, etc). Instead here we have many private owners developing unique properties that can complement each other but never look monotonous like City Creek...

That is also a deterrent to quick development. Luhrs City Center is owned by one company, CityScape by another, Collier yet another, the land next to the arena another still, etc...in SLC it helped that their downtown already had two indoor shopping centers that were integrated into the new development. There just isn't a shopping mall infrastructure like that in downtown Phoenix. That isn't a bad thing in my opinion.

[phxSUNSfan]

Something like City Creek might work in Midtown...Park Central Mall.

Transit (light rail), housing (affluent neighborhood/condos) nearby, huge employment zone with high-paying jobs, high traffic area with commuters from North Central would make it a more feasible redevelopment zone for a shopping center like SLC's. Even room for more towers.

[plinko]

You've missed the point. I'm not talking about creating a mall. I'm saying the City could have been alot more creative about their incentives and tax giveaways and given it a wider scope that would incorporate multiple developers/owners over a slightly larger area. It's still organic in development, but would begin to link things together rather than trumps up a rather isolated singular development. So instead of Cityscape trying to do EVERYTHING (office, retail, residential, grocery, public space), some of those functions could be a little more spread out and each developer would have a chance to focus a little more on quality vs. quantity.

And none of what I think they could have done involves tearing down Luhrs, Barrister, etc. Of course it would be street oriented rather than internalized.

But yes, I agree that Park Central would be a perfect candidate for a City Creek MALL type development.

[azcats]

I agree with you Plinko. While looking at all those photos of Creek City in downtown Salt Lake City...I thought - Scottsdale Fashion Square in downtown Salt lake City. I think the development in S.L. city is very pretty. If you want thousands of people in metro Phoenix to say, "let's go shopping downtown..." you need to have a development like the one in Salt Lake City. The only people City Scape in Phoenix are going to attract are the people staying in the hotels downtown ...and/or people going to a Suns or DBacks game. I think it is a big "zero" compared to Salt Lake City. I grew up in the northeast Valley - Scottsdale/Paradise Valley...I remember as a young boy going to Park Central...then, Thomas Mall...then, Fashion Square & the Biltmore. When I was a kid..Fashion Square was just Goldwaters and A.J. Bayless(groceries). When The Biltmore & Fashion Square really took off - like Saks fith Ave at the Biltmore and adding Sakowitz in 1973 at Fashion Square...who would/why go to downtown Phoenix? Other than going to Brophy my freshman and sophomore years in high school - going to downtown Phoenix was like going to the moon. Why?!? I was born in St. Joes Hospital. Yet, I know more about downtown Phoenix now than I ever did while growing up in Arizona. I appreciate the old there now...and have invested there - but, I am disappointed how it is progressing...in its rebirth. Or, the lack of progression. Let's face it...there is a lot of prejudice regarding downtown Phoenix. Living in California for as long as I have...I think it isn't so bad...but, family and friends that live there in the Valley think I'm stupid for investing in "South Phoenix." Uh, 4th Ave south of Roosevelt- north of Mckinley ...south Phoenix?!? And as I have said before...so many people think asu is building the (UofA) medical school downtown...or, that "downtown" is the corner of Camelback and Central. When I was growiing up - that corner was called "uptown." For a city of 1.5 million and a metro area of 4.2 million ...NOT GOOD! Do you realize that Little Rock, Arkansas - with a METRO population of roughly 400,000 (the same population as Mesa)..Little Rock's tallest building - downtown - is taller than downtown Phoenix's tallest - the Chase Bank Building! Maybe, they should have never zoned to allow tall buildings to go up along Central...Wilshire Blvd - it is not. Maybe, Phoenix then would have a real downtown today.

[PHX31]

The thing that City Creek did well was have one giant grand opening with everything ready and open at the same time (except maybe the residential... or is that open there too?).

When CityScape opened it was basically a soft opening with a few retail spots open here and there and a restaurant or two... most of it was still under construction and "coming soon", which makes for a less than impressive opening. There wasn't a huge build up with everything exploding at the seams to open and the public beating down the door to get in. It's now a year or more later and stuff is still not open, or just opening.

Not to mention City Creek has the backing of the mormon church's money, which makes financing and design and development much easier when you basically have unlimited money and vision. Things will get built as they were planned, value engineering will probably be much more limited, and the City can ask/make them make it as nice as possible.

I was at CityScape this weekend watching some of the cornhole and hanging out... we also went to Vitamin T (hadn't tried it yet) for some tacos and beer. The restaurant was cool and the patio was serviceable, but looking across 1st St to the barren, dusty, empty, weed-growing lot that is to be "future" portions of CityScape, it was a huge downer. Even the area where they had Cornhole (Central) just feels "cooler" and better to hang out in. That whole east side of CityScape (Vitamin T, Yogurt place, Arrogant Butcher, Tilted Kilt) has the worst view ever, it makes it almost uncomfortable to hangout there with that desolate view. It is such a downer that we ended up leaving sooner than we would have if the whole area was hopping with bars and buildings and people, rather than a gigantic empty parking lot. We walked over to Ghost Bar/Seamus, which has a much better "feel" to the area.

I know City Creek doesn't have this problem.

[HooverDam]

Something like City Creek might work in Midtown...Park Central Mall..

I think Park Central's potential/future is something more akin to Boston's Copley Square. A secondary core, outside of downtown, held together by a strong public plaza and flanked by shopping, offices, etc.

A public square/park replacing the parking lot in front of Park Central (running the width of its face) flanked on the North & South by towers w/ ground floor retail sort of thing. Like so:

http://bloomingrock.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Park-Central-Square-Final.jpg

[mgmAZCO]

I think we all definitely lament the tremendous missed opportunity that City Scape is. It isn't all together horrible, but many of us would have liked something more impressive and visually interesting. I finally had a chance to check it out in January and it was fairly underwhelming. It has some pros, and a lot of cons. One interesting thing was that the pedestrian bridge over Central Ave afforded you some great views of old City Hall, the Luhrs buildings, and the old Jefferson hotel. The unremarkable nature of the City Scape architecture really brings out the beauty of those older structures that surround it. Sort of a sad silver lining I know. It's probably good they didn't build the apartments above the retail, because many of those structures would have been completely walled off from view.

I especially didn't like all the changes in elevation...going up escalators, down stairs, across bridges, up steps. Seemed like they were all arbitrarily put in, not sure why that was considered a good design element? Maybe in 8 to 10 years they'll decide to renovate and have some sort of grand re-opening. Hopefully then they can incorporate some new and interesting features and architectural elements. Just my random thoughts/observations on the place...

[combusean]

I actually like the changes in elevation--the center of the development is supposed to be cohesive with the courtyard/plaza/Patriots Square "Park" in that the steps also provide a sort of stadium seating.

It's also quite functional, as the retail loading is off Jefferson St and the retail access is on top of that hump.

And Hoover that is an excellent plan for Park Central. One thing I would consider is replacing that southwest office tower with the pond that was there decades ago and is the reason for 3rd Ave's curve anyway. I would demolish the Hampton Inn since nobody is really going to miss it, and that parking garage on the north end will probably have to be rebuilt to accomodate additional vehicles--may as well throw some retail on its north and east sides. Maybe the garage could be replaced into a few towers with all the parking to go underneath the park square.

Unfortunately, Midtown is probably decades away from seeing that sort of retail/office/residential interest.

[HooverDam]

^ Agreed on the Hampton, I guess I was thinking of that image as a Phase 1 sort of thing.

I didn't know about the Pond, it was probably long gone by the time I was old enough to be noticing such things. I don't think I've ever seen a picture of it, please post one if you have one.

It would also be nice for somewhere around Park Central to have a smaller branch campus of the MIM (like the Heard North) with a shuttle service running between the two locations.

E: Also I wonder what sort of larger retailers we could realistically hope to attract to both Downtown & The Park Central area in the next 10-20 years. The PHX area seems pretty saturated to me with Nordstroms, Barneys, Macy's and the like. Between Biltmore, Scottsdale Fashion, Chandler Fashion, the Quarter, Kierland, etc. it seems there's really no demand for high end retail to come to Downtown--- so something like what they have in SLC seems impossible.

I imagine the Park Central area could sustain slightly higher end stuff than Downtown proper because of its proximity to Willo, Encanto Palmcroft, Alvarado, North Central, etc. If we could get maybe a Macy's (not all that high end), Dillards & Sears to anchor Park Central with stores like JC Penny, Khols, TJ Maxx, Ross, PetSmart & a CityTarget going in Downtown that would be incredible.

Of course that doesn't even bring grocery stores into the discussion. Park Central would be a great place for a grocery store like a Sprouts, Whole Foods or Trader Joes, Sunflower, etc some day as CenPhx is completely devoid in that area. Something with a lunch counter facing that "Park Central Square" would be terrific. Downtown of course desperately needs the PHX Public Market to develop into something more like Philly's Reading Terminal or LAs Public Market and a Food City or Fresh & Easy would be great downtown (though F&E seems to be struggling).

[PHX31]

You can see historical aerials of Phoenix at this website:

http://www.fcd.maricopa.gov/GIS/maps.aspx

I don't see a pond there in the 1959 aerial, and Park Central Mall with the parking lots looks pretty brand new. When was a pond there and for how long?

[mgmAZCO]

It's also quite functional, as the retail loading is off Jefferson St and the retail access is on top of that hump.

I'm glad it's functional for loading...I guess. Was more concerned with it being functional for the pedestrian, which it really isn't IMHO.

[combusean]

PHX, the pond was there when it was a dairy farm in the early 1950s before Park Central replaced the whole thing.

mgm, there's only so much you can do when lobbies and parking access for CityScape's towers gobble up the ground floor. It is one of the many reasons high-rises are typically antithetical to thriving street scenes. Besides, it is functional, but doesn't have the form urbanists want.

To me, it's kind of a throw back to the "nanogrid" of sorts a hundred years ago when the alleys between the blocks downtown were actually named and had businesses and residences off them.

[PHX31]

/\ I'll have to take your word on it... I still don't see the pond in the 1930, 1949, nor 1951 aerial.

A trader joes would kill in park central mall.

[combusean]

^ Hmm... so it doesn't.. I've heard the pond story from multiple sources. I retract my comment. Thank you for investigating it.

[HooverDam]

^Well lets call it an 'oasis' and blame it on heat induced visions. :)

[mgmAZCO]

mgm, there's only so much you can do when lobbies and parking access for CityScape's towers gobble up the ground floor. It is one of the many reasons high-rises are typically antithetical to thriving street scenes. Besides, it is functional, but doesn't have the form urbanists want.

To me, it's kind of a throw back to the "nanogrid" of sorts a hundred years ago when the alleys between the blocks downtown were actually named and had businesses and residences off them.

I guess it comes down to what you think the 'function' of the development is, specifically the retail portion. My belief was that it's supposed to be a gathering place for residents, as well as retail destination. When you create a plaza that's cut off from the street in three directions, and have a retail area that can't be viewed or accessed easily then it doesn't quite work to its full potential (If you're standing on 1st and Jefferson you'd have no idea that a whole retail/shopping/restaurant/plaza is running through the area). Again, a missed opportunity in design. I think the form AND function leave a lot to be desired. Like I mentioned, there are some things that they did well and I'm not trying to gang up on the place, but certainly it could have been so much more...with just a little bit of additional effort. Just a difference of opinon, which we're all entitled to.

[gymratmanaz]

Talked to one of the contractors. The crane will jump soon but no set date. They will add 14 stories, making a total of 25. There will be balconies on the south side and possibly the west.

Awning structure is framed for Silk. Looks like a cool floorplan inside. Love that a street side patio is in.

Hotel Palomar is to open June1. Contractor said it will open before Silk, though Silk was supposed to open first.

The club attached to Lucky Strike keeps moving forward with more internal work, framing, drywalling....

[Phxguy]

http://azremagazine.com/news/kimpton-palomar-hotel-open-june-5
Just more news on the hotel, wish we could've gotten info on the residential though.

[PHXflyer]

Does anyone have anymore info on this?

"For fans of Fuego Bistro, the tiny Latin-inspired eatery in north Central Phoenix, or its more casual spinoff in the Camelback Esplanade, Fuego Tacos, owner Jeff Ward has some surprises in store -- two of them, in fact.
Ward is planning to open two additional Fuego-themed restaurants in the next two months: Fuego Cantina, at 830 East Greenway Parkway (in the former Chuy's Mesquite Broiler location), and FuegoCityScape in the CityScape building downtown.

Stay tuned for details."

[HX_Guy]

Very cool, I love Fuego Bistro.

[gymratmanaz]

love their pork tacos!!!!!

[Vicelord John]

Oooooh no. That dickhead is still running restaurants?

[michael85225]

It's been years since I last posted on here but I thought I'd share these pictures. A quick search in Google and these popped up. Looks like a rendering of the hotel/residential building. I don't know how recent these are but both Expedia and Orbitz have these photos on their website.
http://www.tnetnoc.com/hotelimages/061/906061/2631759-Palomar-Phoenix-a-Kimpton-Hotel-Hotel-Exterior-8.jpg
http://media.expedia.com/hotels/6000000/5060000/5052300/5052263/5052263_14_b.jpg
http://www.orbitz.com/hotel/United_States--AZ/Phoenix/Palomar_Phoenix_a_Kimpton_Hotel.h906061/

[HX_Guy]

Whoa!

[combusean]

^ That looks more like the proposed office development above the hotel. The floorplates seem kinda big for residential and there are no balconies/opening windows on the second one--the two renderings appear to show different buildings, for what it's worth.

Mysteries...

[nickw252]

http://media.expedia.com/hotels/6000000/5060000/5052300/5052263/5052263_14_b.jpg
http://www.orbitz.com/hotel/United_States--AZ/Phoenix/Palomar_Phoenix_a_Kimpton_Hotel.h906061/

I like that rendering and don't think I've ever seen it. The fact that the hotel portion looks like what is standing now makes me think this may be new.

As far as it being short... This is Phoenix where a 10 floor building is big news let alone one like this :cool:

[HX_Guy]

I like that rendering and don't think I've ever seen it. The fact that the hotel portion looks like what is standing now makes me think this may be new.

As far as it being short... This is Phoenix where a 10 floor building is big news let alone one like this :cool:

I think the second one is an older rendering because as Combusean said, it looks like an office tower plus the hotel portion already built does not look like that.

The first rendering does look like it may have balconies that that could be of the apartments.

[nickw252]

http://i40.tinypic.com/1196slw.jpg

Rebar still showing on the elevator shaft. Hopefully we see it going up soon.

[gymratmanaz]

little thing....some nice new stand alone planters have been added to the courtyard.

[phoenixheadphones]

Looks like Kimpton hotel might have a nice restaurant:

http://www.azcentral.com/thingstodo/dining/articles/2012/04/26/20120426blue-hound-kitchen-cocktails-cityscape-hotel-palomar.html

[PhxER]

Cityscape Closes Vitamin T

Vitamin T, high-profile chef Aaron May's taco parlor in downtown Phoenix, is being shut down by CityScape developer, Red Development.
Jeff Moloznik, the company's development manager, said Thursday evening that he would be posting a closure notice later that night, and locking up the space.
May said he's still "hopeful to work something out" with the CityScape developer. He acknowledged that he has not been paying rent because he believes CityScape "violated our non-compete clause" when it brought Chipotle Mexican Grill into the tenant mix.


Read more here (http://www.azcentral.com/thingstodo/dining/articles/2012/04/26/20120426aaron-mays-vitamin-t-shut-down-by-cityscape-phoenix.html#ixzz1tD4niBka)

[Vicelord John]

Someone find my post where I said chipotle would mark the end of vitamin t.

That place was so fucking terrible I'm amazed it lasted as long as it did.

[nickw252]

Losing Vitamin T is not much of a loss. It was expensive, the portions were small, it had bad hours, and the food was not really anything special. It sounds like Aaron May has a habit of screwing over landlords and then blaming them when his business fails. Good riddance, enjoy "vibrant old town Scottsdale"

[nickw252]

Get ready for another new downtown Phoenix hotel restaurant.
CityScape's boutique Hotel Palomar, part of the Kimpton hotel group, will house Blue Hound Kitchen & Cocktails. Executive chef Stephen Jones is heading the operation.
Jones, 32, has a strong resume. He spent the last two years running the kitchen at Latilla, the Boulders' showplace dining room. Prior to that, he had been chef de cuisine at Tarbell's.
He says Blue Hound will be a "contemporary gastro-lounge," featuring shareable, small-plate fare made with local, organic and sustainable ingredients. (Unlike some hotel chains, each Kimpton hotel has its own one-of-a-kind restaurant.) Among the dishes he's considering for the menu: Kentucky-fried quail and foie gras cornbread, with red beans and sausage gravy. Look for a dinner-check average of about $40.
Jones says he'll be aiming to "marry the cocktail program and food." The cocktail list is being crafted by Jacques Bezuidenhout,Kimpton's consulting mixologist, who has gotten excellent notices in San Francisco. He'll be putting together an extensive collection of scotch, bourbon and gin as well.
The Hotel Palomar and Blue Hound are scheduled to open on Tuesday, June 5.
Details: Blue Hound Kitchen & Cocktails, Hotel Palomar, 2 E. Jefferson St., Phoenix.

http://www.azcentral.com/thingstodo/dining/articles/2012/04/26/20120426blue-hound-kitchen-cocktails-cityscape-hotel-palomar.html

[KingLouieLouie76]

Losing Vitamin T is not much of a loss. It was expensive, the portions were small, it had bad hours, and the food was not really anything special. It sounds like Aaron May has a habit of screwing over landlords and then blaming them when his business fails. Good riddance, enjoy "vibrant old town Scottsdale"

I agree. Not a loss whatsoever. It's at a prime location (lots of foot traffic before/after Suns and Dbacks home games), so was always shocked that the restaurant wasn't in operation during those such nights. I obviously know it was in the beginning, but of course most of the tenants weren't in place as of yet. Yogurtini generates its fair share of business. Just wondering what would be the perfect replacement at that spot?

[nickw252]

Years of construction at First and Jefferson streets in downtown Phoenix are about to end at the CityScape office-and-retail project as construction crews complete the Hotel Palomar Phoenix.

The $90 million, 242-room boutique hotel in the RED Development project officially opens June 5. It joins the Hotel San Carlos, Hyatt Regency Phoenix, Renaissance Phoenix Hotel, Sheraton Phoenix Downtown Hotel and the Westin Phoenix Downtown in the lineup of downtown hotels.

Jim Hollister, general manager of the new hotel, said other hoteliers in the area have been welcoming to the Palomar, even though it will bring them new competition.


"We are fighting for the same business in summer," Hollister said.

CityScape general manager Jeff Moloznik said the Hotel Palomar will give Phoenix more leverage when courting large national conferences and events, such as the Super Bowl, which will be held at the University of Phoenix Stadium in 2015, with fan events at CityScape.

"But we're also competing together as a group nationally for conventions," Moloznik said.

Phoenix officials have said the city needs more hotels downtown to support the large-scale conventions they have been drawing to the Phoenix Convention Center, a few blocks from CityScape.

An estimated 195,750 people are expected to attend the center's conferences this year -- which amounts to nearly 276,000 room nights in local hotels, according to the Greater Phoenix Convention and Visitors Bureau and convention-center officials.

Those convention attendees are expected to spend more than $283 million during the year on food, drinks, rooms, souvenirs and entertainment.

The Palomar in Phoenix, a Kimpton hotel, would be an attractive option for conventioneers, and it could be a selling point for associations and other national groups that are deciding where to hold their next annual conventions, said Jennifer Franklin, a spokeswoman for the hotel.

Franklin also said Kimpton hotels have a loyal customer following, especially among women, which makes it an attractive brand for cities to acquire.

The Hotel Palomar Phoenix is the second hotel that Kimpton Hotels and Restaurants has built from scratch, Hollister said. The other is the Hotel Palomar in Chicago. The company usually adds hotels through "adaptive reuse" -- renovating existing buildings.

Moloznik said the Hotel Palomar Phoenix boasts energy efficiency and recycled materials that may enable it -- and all of CityScape's two blocks of stores, restaurants and offices -- to qualify for the prestigious LEED certification, the international hallmark of green design and construction.

In addition, it already meets Kimpton's standards for green building under its 7-year-old green building program, EarthCare -- another selling point for the environmentally conscientious customer.

The hotel's 242 rooms are decked in chic neutral tones -- espresso brown; gray beaded wallpaper; beige-colored, croc-textured doors on the wardrobes; and stainless-steel fixtures. The furniture has crisp, straight edges, but pillows and other accessories soften the sharpness. Nightly room rates start at $149.

"It's like that show 'Mad Men,' " Hollister said, referring to the popular AMC television show set in the early 1960s, when interior design was markedly minimalist with stark, contrasting colors.

A one-bedroom unit features a separate sitting room. Each bathroom has a Fuji soak tub.

A 3,200-square-foot ballroom will play host to conferences, banquets and celebrations. Boardrooms also can be set up in the meeting spaces. Altogether, the hotel offers more than 15,000 square feet of meeting space.

Construction crews are putting the finishing touches on two bars. One, on the second floor of the hotel, is the Blue Hound Kitchen & Cocktails bar, where Palomar guests will be invited to a "Wines of the World" hour at 5 p.m. daily. Room service also is available 24 hours a day.

The outdoor pool is on the third floor, where guests can watch the crowds walking to and leaving concerts, Phoenix Suns, Mercury and Arizona Diamondbacks games. Another bar, Lustre, next to the pool will be open to the public.

Guests hoping to squeeze in a workout will get complimentary passes to Gold's Gym Elite at CityScape.

Hollister said the hotel has been hosting job fairs at the CityScape office tower to hire 250 workers, from cleaning crews to managers.

No mention of apartments in the article, but then again, it is the Republic.

http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/2012/04/27/20120427downtown-phoenix-hotel-palomar-almost-complete.html

[HX_Guy]

Not only no mention...but the article says "Years of construction at Cityscape are about to come to an end." What's up with that?

[mwadswor]

Not only no mention...but the article says "Years of construction at Cityscape are about to come to an end." What's up with that?

I'm guessing just bad reporting since the rebar hanging out the top of the hotel is plainly visible from street. No reason to leave that up there unless they're planning on continuing up in the near future.

[gymratmanaz]

The Head guy at Breakfast Club said the Palomar owners and managers come in all the time. They have to finish and get the hotel cleared before they can start on the apartments. They are going up, just need to get the hotel certified. Breathe everyone......we'll get there. :) OR ELSE!!!

[HooverDam]

I'm guessing just bad reporting since the rebar hanging out the top of the hotel is plainly visible from street. No reason to leave that up there unless they're planning on continuing up in the near future.

It would not surprise me at all to see RED just leaving the rebar hanging out like that. After all they broke City code (and got away with it scott free!) on their tower by having all the mechanical shit clearly visible and not screened.

[alexico]

Someone find my post where I said chipotle would mark the end of vitamin t.

That place was so fucking terrible I'm amazed it lasted as long as it did.

agreed. I tried it 2 times as well. not impressed and over priced. hopefully something better will take its place

[nickw252]

Is there a separate entrance/elevator for apartments? I couldn't imagine that they'd share the same lobby and elevators. Is anyone familiar with the floor plan, blueprints, or layout of the building?

[dtnphx]

Is there a separate entrance/elevator for apartments? I couldn't imagine that they'd share the same lobby and elevators. Is anyone familiar with the floor plan, blueprints, or layout of the building?

They'll probably do what that did at the Freeport-McMoran building with the Westin lobby.

[nickw252]

They'll probably do what that did at the Freeport-McMoran building with the Westin lobby.

I actually haven't been in that lobby. How is it there? Do they have separate elevators? Share the same lobby?

[Vicelord John]

I actually haven't been in that lobby. How is it there? Do they have separate elevators? Share the same lobby?

I was going to ask the same question. :haha:

[AZScraper]

They fillled the pool with water today.
sorry for bad pic.:shrug:

http://i49.tinypic.com/345dmc0.jpg

[dtnphx]

When they built the addition to Freeport McMoran building, they also added seperate entrances to the hotel from the main lobby. Not quite sure about the elevator banks.

[PHXflyer]

The Westin has a separate elevator bank. Once you enter the hotel lobby, there is a hallway the wraps around the rear of the building and back to the central core to a private elevator bank. If you haven't been, you should check it out. The conference space floor of the hotel is impressive (considering it was added after the building was completed). They actually cut out some of the floor above it to provide a two story open area outside of the conference rooms.

[Vicelord John]

Speaking of Freeport Mac, I'm sad they don't use the halo anymore.

[HX_Guy]

Looks like a new tenant is coming to Cityscape...

Permit# BLD-T559871 Issue Date Expires 5/2/14
Permit Description JOS.A.BANK T.I.

[dtnphx]

Looks like a new tenant is coming to Cityscape...

Permit# BLD-T559871 Issue Date Expires 5/2/14
Permit Description JOS.A.BANK T.I.


That's a good fit. JOS A BANK is like Men's Warehouse. They have three locations in the Valley. Considering all the "suits" downtown, they should do well.

[combusean]

Would've never thought a company like that would end up in CityScape ... all their locations are in BFE, forming a huge arc around the metro. This is a sign the "donut hole" of retail around Central Phoenix is starting to go away.

[HX_Guy]

Yea I like their stuff, though you'd be crazy to buy it without one of their specials they are always running (buy 1 get 2 free). It's good quality stuff though.

[nickw252]

Looks like a new tenant is coming to Cityscape...

Permit# BLD-T559871 Issue Date Expires 5/2/14
Permit Description JOS.A.BANK T.I.


Whoa! My paycheck might as well just get deposited there.

[combusean]

By the way, there is a prize for whoever posts either the first shot of the tower crane getting raised and/or a substantive building permit for the apartments. I have no idea what it is yet, but it's there.

[gymratmanaz]

is it going where the ice rink skate rental was? where the other clothing place was.

[bwaynoh]

According to downtownphoenix.com Ra-Apparel is supposed to be going in the old Designer District spot.

http://www.downtownphoenix.com/blog/2012/04/if-the-sustainable-locally-made-clothes-fit-wear-them/?utm_campaign=

is it going where the ice rink skate rental was? where the other clothing place was.

[gymratmanaz]

Makes sense in the Designer District spot...plus, what's left?

Oh, I also heard from a contact at Breakfast Club that the sliver of a place between BC and Tilted Kilt will be a barber shop. It is a good space for that and a need next to the hotel and tower.

[HX_Guy]

Stupid two level retail. :(

Imagine if all these places were on the ground floor spread between all three blocks, the whole area would feel much more expansive and walkable. Honestly I forgot all about the Breakfast Club even being there. Only stuff I can see from the street is what seems to stick to my memory.

[PHXflyer]

Speaking of that HX, last week on two separate occasions I ran into groups of 4 people walking around downtown looking for a place for breakfast and I told them about Breakfast Club and then had to give detailed instructions of how to find it on the second level. One group was in front of the former First Watch, the other group in front of Baja Fresh. It was at this point that I realized there is zero signage at street level to identify that the Breakfast Club even exists. It's amazing to me that any company would take the risk to come downtown and then not advertise or have signage. The best part is that if they fail, then they will blame it on a faltering downtown, not their own lack of signage.

[gymratmanaz]

I agree about signage. There should be a separate sign listing all second level stores.......but come on, How hard was it for you to give directions?...."Cross the street and go up the escalator".....From First Watch, you couldn't point to the stairs. They are in plain sight.

I talked to BC and they are making money. They have been building business each week. They are fine. With the hotel opening soon , they are good. With apartments, even better. Breathe everyone!!!

[PHXflyer]

I didn't say it was hard for me to give them directions, as a matter of fact I volunteered the directions as I often do to try to get people from outside the area to know more about what is downtown. That doesn't mean it was easy for someone from out of the area to understand the directions. Thank you for advising me how to give directions in the 6 block area that I've lived for the past 7 and 1/2 years. I also didn't say that BC was struggling. I go there 2-3 times a week. Sometimes busy, sometimes not. I agree, I think they are banking a lot on the hotel.

[Vicelord John]

I agree about signage. There should be a separate sign listing all second level stores.......but come on, How hard was it for you to give directions?...."Cross the street and go up the escalator".....From First Watch, you couldn't point to the stairs. They are in plain sight.

I talked to BC and they are making money. They have been building business each week. They are fine. With the hotel opening soon , they are good. With apartments, even better. Breathe everyone!!!

You and I interpreted phxflyer's comments differently. I read it as criticism of the lack of signage, and I agree.