Phoenix CityScape Thread [Archive] - Page 29

glynnjamin

Mar 12, 2009, 4:37 AM

Downtown Phoenix was 'dangerous' in the late 90's? Hardly. There certainly were a couple of neighborhoods west of 7th Avenue and east of 7th Street that might have been a bit shady, but hardly 'dangerous'. I started spending large amounts of time down there in '92 (and lived in Midtown 00-02).

Funny story about '92 in Downtown Phx. I was like 10 and my friends and I would take the bus from our old neighborhood around 29th & Greenway down to Metrocenter to hang out during the summer. Well, one day, after we were done at Metro, we went out to the bus bay and we saw our bus gettin ready to leave so we ran and got on. About 10 minutes later, we realized we were going south instead of north. At this point we figured, 'it runs in a circle, it has to go back, we'll just stay on it.'

Obviously not. Like an hour later we found ourselves pulling into Central Station and the driver saying "everyone off." So here we are, three white suburban kids, at Central Station at like 3 in the afternoon. So one of my friends calls his mom to come get us and we are stuck there waiting till she can come down.

While we are waiting, these two black guys are standing around up to no good and one of them catches the eye of my friend. "What you lookin' at?" he starts...and my friend shies away and says "nothing." Well, the guy keeps on with his trouble, trying to start something, and then I decide to tell him to leave us alone cuz my buddy wasn't tryin to start anything. BIG MISTAKE. I then had a 9mm pointed at my head. About 10 seconds later (or what seemed like 10 minutes) a cop came out and the black guys ran off. That was decidedly the last time I would go downtown until 1998 when the Dbacks came to town.

Ironically, I live practically right across the street and spend at least an hour of my week waiting at Central Station now. I've walked through there at 2am and never thought anything of it. Amazing how much things have changed in 15 years.

HooverDam

Mar 12, 2009, 4:48 AM

^Yep, now it would be dangerous going from downtown to Metro Center, not the other way around!

Vicelord John

Mar 12, 2009, 4:52 AM

Having guns pointed at you sucks.

combusean

Mar 12, 2009, 5:04 AM

Who points guns at a 10 year old? That's some fucked up shit.

Vicelord John

Mar 12, 2009, 3:57 PM

Who points guns at a 10 year old? That's some fucked up shit.

QFT.

.

PhxPavilion

Mar 13, 2009, 10:04 AM

Who points guns at a 10 year old? That's some fucked up shit.

Dbags who are insecure, jealous and hate their shitty lives.

Downtown_resident

Mar 13, 2009, 5:04 PM

Vicelord John

Mar 13, 2009, 7:27 PM

Agree 100%. Some of the posters on here sound like the azcentral suburbanites. Downtown's biggest problem was not that it was dangerous-- that's a stereotype of cities from the 80's that was probably never true for our tiny downtown-- but that it was miniscule and dead. I spent a decent amount of time downtown in the early 90's when I was in high school, and it was a dull, but not unsafe place to be. Downtown has become safer recently, but the idea that it was ever 'dangerous' is an exaggeration.

http://downtownphoenix.blogspot.com

If you're implying that I am a poster that sounds like an AZCentral suburbanite, then lololololol.

And I never said it was dangerous, I said that in high school we liked to go downtown for the "danger factor" meaning we got a rush out of going somewhere that felt different and unsafe for us. I don't think anyone can deny that the crime rate downtown was significantly higher than it is today. If you are saying it was a safe place to be 10 years ago at night for 3 teenage kids, you're fricking delusional. <--- spelled incorrectly, I know.

glynnjamin

Mar 13, 2009, 8:03 PM

^Agreed with John. If you are trying to say that I am some suburbanite, then fuck off with that shit. Sure I grew up in NoPho but I lived in Seattle and New York and CHOSE to move back here and buy in the heart of downtown. My experience in downtown Phoenix in 1992 made me legitimately afraid of the crime in downtown. I was 10! But, like I said, by 1998, when the Dbacks had come to town, downtown was generally a place that I would spend a decent amount of time. I worked for the AZ Dept of Education though most of high school. Rode the Dash into the real downtown from 14th Ave. But please, no one on here sees downtown the same way AZCentral posters do...

Vicelord John

Mar 13, 2009, 8:34 PM

I also bought in the heart of downtown because I love it. I won't use the same vulgar words because a certain someone told me I can't, but I express the same sentiments.

HX_Guy

Mar 14, 2009, 12:59 AM

Here is a new rendering from the Business Journal. I assume it's the same as the one from this month's AZRE magazine, though that one is probably much better quality.

http://nitnelav.com/cityscapenewrender.jpg

HooverDam

Mar 14, 2009, 1:03 AM

It really looks lame in that rendering.

sashyenka

Mar 14, 2009, 1:38 AM

That rendering looks remarkably like the 80s boxes that we have here in Denver.

Vicelord John

Mar 14, 2009, 2:22 AM

you look like an 80's box!!!

no, really though, I agree with you... it doesn't look great in that picture.

PHX31

Mar 14, 2009, 3:27 AM

looks like a mix between the Qwest tower and those brown twin towers next to Qwest in midtown... only not tan/brown.

Vicelord John

Mar 14, 2009, 3:55 AM

With the top being rwminiscent of the us airways bldg.

Jsmscaleros

Mar 14, 2009, 6:14 AM

You guys are expecting more pizazz? Phoenix architecture has always been very conservative.

glynnjamin

Mar 14, 2009, 7:50 AM

I was enjoying this thread until I realized that was a rendering of CityScape and not something that was designed in 1985. God that sucks. You guys wanna help me start a Ponzi scheme? We could build a nice tower with our money.

combusean

Mar 14, 2009, 10:19 AM

I like it so far.

Looking at the pics HX posted a few pages back, I think the glass and the understated grayish part give it this snowy, crystalline feeling. It's like a modern grayish white color that should look nice along US Bank and Luhrs tower. It would look really well next to CPE, complements the bofa tower, and should make for some awesome reflections, especially at night.

http://nitnelav.com/DTMarch52009/2.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/DTMarch52009/3.jpg

The glass is the same color as the sky, and that's the predominant treatment. It gives Colliers a run for the money in the value engineering department even but they've managed to do quite well still.

Luke Skyscraper

Mar 14, 2009, 3:07 PM

What floor are they at? Lucky 13?

gymratmanaz

Mar 15, 2009, 12:03 AM

Yes, 13. 1/2 the pillars are poured and ready for #14.

PhxPavilion

Mar 15, 2009, 12:32 AM

It's going to be 27 floors plus the mechanical level from that rendering.

NIXPHX77

Mar 15, 2009, 4:42 AM

Yes, 13. 1/2 the pillars are poured and ready for #14.
13th on the 13th! it was our lucky day!

gymratmanaz

Mar 15, 2009, 5:10 AM

and they are really getting close to getting all the digging done for the rest of the parking garage.

Sure would be great to get some more encouraging news about tower #2, especially with all the renewed chatter about Leurs!!!!

HX_Guy

Mar 15, 2009, 6:23 PM

One thing that is pretty cool about the Cityscape tower is how it has a grand entrance facing east toward 1st St...not just frontage north toward Washington as most other buildings downtown seem to have, either north or south frontages.

A couple random shots from yesterday...

http://nitnelav.com/03142009/Cityscape031409.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/03142009/Cityscape031409_2.jpg

HooverDam

Mar 19, 2009, 3:09 AM

From today:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3649/3367187552_fae5e05a6b.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3633/3366363477_3500d0882d.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3466/3366363269_3653b4b788.jpg?v=0

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1513/dsc0246s.jpg

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/5870/dsc0247q.jpg

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8641/dsc0255m.jpg

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4355/dsc0256k.jpg

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/7825/dsc0261k.jpg

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/4476/dsc0263j.jpg

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/3988/dsc0267l.jpg

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/1549/dsc0270y.jpg

HX_Guy

Mar 31, 2009, 4:02 PM

Up to 15 stories now (on the east side) and the hole is just about completely dug out. The glass looks pretty damn good as well...different then anything else we have downtown.

http://nitnelav.com/Cityscape033009/6HDR2.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/Cityscape033009/1.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/Cityscape033009/2.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/Cityscape033009/3.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/Cityscape033009/5.jpg

gymratmanaz

Mar 31, 2009, 5:19 PM

Hoping and praying for tower #2 crane....I can't recall, when they put the bottom layer of cement for the parking garage, didn't they also attach the crane base for tower #1? If so, then once they start laying cement for the rest of the parking garage, we may then know our answer to if or when crane #2 comes.....?

HX_Guy

Mar 31, 2009, 5:25 PM

Yes, the tower crane actually went in first, before any concrete was poured for the rest of the floor.

http://nitnelav.com/cityscapecrane3.jpg

So yes, if there were to be a Tower #2, it would make sense that the crane would go in before they even started building the parking garage.

However, I was told a while back that the garage be built to street level, then a tower crane would go up. If you remember, I was asking a while back if that was possible, if a crane could be attached to a structure vs a foundation in the ground and the answer was that it is possible.

CANUC

Mar 31, 2009, 5:52 PM

http://nitnelav.com/Cityscape033009/2.jpg

Uhg, why oh why is that freaking PSP still there? It is no longer usable or accessible in any way and its not even torn down. What the f**k!? Its the ultimate handy man project that gets started, is done half ass and then never completed. At least open it back up to the bums and keep them out of the Civic park, just venting.

LAFINDOG

Apr 1, 2009, 12:37 AM

plinko

Apr 1, 2009, 1:11 AM

gymratmanaz

Apr 1, 2009, 4:02 AM

So, HX, what you are saying is....we won't know till we see one, either before garage starts or after it is street level.....or not at all. I hate that third option!

Where is Mr. Wizzard with all the answers?

kevininlb

Apr 1, 2009, 2:27 PM

Finally some photos where the glass looks at least decent. Still has an oddly 80's vibe for me, but I'll have to wait till I see it in person.

Updates (especially with photos) always appreciated HX...

Something really amazing has happened with glass (technology?) that I don't have the expertise to explain or understand. But glass on new buildings is just amazing to look at. CS is no exception. The is a beauty, and no 80s vibe in person, not even a little.

CANUC

Apr 2, 2009, 5:24 PM

PSP looks like it does because the developer has no money....and is trying to buy it for free. What is going to be built will not look anything like the renderings. As I said before on this forum, think Collier Center retail redone.

OK, I know you are fairly new to the forum but I’ll take what you say tentatively. So let me ask you when you say because the developer has no money, are saying this out of a shared frustration with this project or because you have a genuine insight into the developer? You don’t have to give exact details but when someone makes a comment like this on the forum some validation is expected simply because it contradicts what the developer has been saying about having funding.

gymratmanaz

Apr 2, 2009, 5:40 PM

Thank you, CANUC. Well said. There is nothing wrong with speculation, but it should be stated that way. If it is a known fact, then state that too and how you "Know". I try to say who tells me things..... and we all know, when a worker tells me or anyone something it is ALWAYS the God's truth. LOL :)

LAFINDOG

Apr 2, 2009, 10:01 PM

I truly understand what you are saying. I am employed with one of the subcontracting companies working on the project. With that, I can't really say anymore. I was not trying to be coy and there is genuine frustration with both the process of getting the work started on the PSP area and the fact the GC keeps beating everybody (Subs) up to lower their prices. All this is getting the Developer is cheaper products and lower standards in quality. The good performing subs will not play this game and have elected to back out instead of getting involved in a project for which they might not get paid in the end. In the mean time, the developer keeps "Value Engineering" the project to the point it will be a shell of what is shown in the renderings. As I said before, it has all the makings of Collier Center. Which we we also involved with when it was built.
My comments were made to try to bring some realistic discussion to the table, not to be flippant.

glynnjamin

Apr 3, 2009, 3:48 PM

^Raise your hand if you are surprised...

anyone?

anyone?

What a disaster...NoPho has a huge CityNorth project that (illegally) got done and looks decent thanks to tons of city compensation. Meanwhile, the very heart of the city is going to get stuck with a half-completed mess for 10 years. At least we know that they city will give Colliers the money to tear the thing back down and turn it back into a parking lot in the year 2025. They've done it over and over again, no sense in stopping now.

plinko

Apr 3, 2009, 5:11 PM

Just curious, what was 'illegal' about CityNorth? (I honestly don't know much about that project other than it also received city subsidies).

Value engineering is something that happens in every project and beating down the subs in this market is happening industry-wide right now. At this point, I'm sure as a developer they are looking at doing the bare minimum to satisfy minimums, get their city $dollars$, and hope to break even.

That's not exactly what happened at Arizona Center or Collier Center, but the net result is likely going to be the same. Disappointing to say the least. I think that's why I like single tower / block developments so much more. They tend to add a varied dynamic to the built environment rather than an overwhelming homogenized one. These master planned things rarely if ever work out and sets of 'twins' are boring anyway (with some notable exceptions).

I still think the PSP block should have been the lite rail / bus central station with retail and a tower on top with future underground links to Union Station (for future commuter rail). The city owned the land, there's no reason they couldn't have made that work out with a developer partner. Let the market dictate what happened on the other two blocks...say...like a W Hotel?

Just my 4cents

glynnjamin

Apr 3, 2009, 7:33 PM

^Well, "illegal" is obviously a loaded term that is up to different people's interpretations. It is my understanding that CityNorth was developed because the city offered a 50% tax abatement and to pay the developer for parking spaces in the garages. This, according to the AZ State Appellate Court, violates the AZ Constitution. The Constitution prohibits government entities from granting money or credit to private entities in most cases.

Basically, the developer would get $97M from the city, if they built CityNorth to certain specifications. Normally, developers can get a property tax abatement and/or some kind of leniency with regards to zoning. In this instance, the city was trying to alter the free market by enticing a developer to build in an area they may not normally build. The city is going to be short-changed $100M over the next 11 years all while drawing development dollars away from downtown. While this may bring in more tax dollars than we lose, the funneling of city funds into what amounts as a pissing contest between Phx and Scottsdale is really frustrating. If $100M was going to be offered to a developer, I would rather have seen a project like CityNorth done on the CityScape lot. Now the city is out of money, CityNorth is 1/3 done, and CityScape is (what appears to be) years away from completion and may never reach full potential.

combusean

Apr 3, 2009, 10:40 PM

I barely know where to begin with the above.

The CityNorth subsidy is more or less the same as the CityScape subsidy.

Both involve significant reimbursements ($100 million) for parking garages through sales tax abatements.

The fact that one project is downtown doesn't make any difference to the Goldwater Institute, they are fighting subsidies on ANY level...central city revitalization be damned.

"While this may bring in more tax dollars than we lose, the funneling of city funds into what amounts as a pissing contest between Phx and Scottsdale is really frustrating."

First off, you're basically saying through that the while it is a good investment--by it bringing in more tax dollars than we lose--you chock it up to a "pissing contest"...

Do you think Phoenix and Scottsdale are fighting this for any other reason than MONEY? Buy east of Scottsdale Rd and your money supports Scottsdale. Buy west of Scottsdale Rd and your money supports Phoenix. I would hardly call the sales tax dollars fight in a high growth, desirable/well to do area as superficial as a "pissing contest."

glynnjamin

Apr 4, 2009, 7:57 AM

^Not trying to argue with you because I only know what I have read from Goldwater & the AZRep but I think there are HUGE differences between CityNorth and CityScape.

CityNorth have the developer paying to build the parking garages and the development out of their budget. The city, is giving them 50% off their taxes for 11 years AND paying the developer to use the parking garage. Goldwater sees this as the city giving gifts to the developer because there is money being exchanged.

CityScape is different. The city already owns the one parking garage and is paying for the other. They are building one part of the project. The developer is then going to build what amounts to the above-ground parts of the project and they will receive an 8 year full tax abatement. In this instance, the city owns the parking and is not leasing/renting it. Also, while the construction of the parking will total $95M, the actual loss in tax dollars totals about $26M.

Please tell me if I am wrong in the way that I read those deals but that is the way it appears to me.

And as far as the "pissing contest" statement goes, I stand by it. Phoenix has prime land to attract big money and deep pockets. The rational thing to do would be to get Bloomingdales into Biltmore if it were that important. Or hell, get them downtown like every other major city. I made the comment that I would have rather seen a project like CityNorth done on the CityScape lot for $100M because I was implying that I wanted a high density retail project in downtown. Not because I didn't think Phx threw enough money downtown. I just felt like they got their demographics mixed up.

How does NoPho end up with a walkable street with tons of shops at ground level with condos above it spread over three city blocks...and downtown ends up with one block (possibly two) of inward facing retail with office space above it? Seems backwards.

PhxPavilion

Apr 4, 2009, 8:22 AM

kevininlb

Apr 5, 2009, 12:46 AM

It is my understanding the Goldwater Institute won that suit and CityNorth will not be getting many or any of those incentives. It is sad that the city is trying to fund projects on the outskirts rather than only awarding developers for filling the interior.

At this point I will be surprised if the second cityscape tower gets built in any form.

Outskirts? Really? It's Phoenix, so Phoenix is supporting it. What's not to understand. And, guess what, people in North Phoenix need places to shop, too.

Last thing, someone called CN a "huge" complex. Um, hardly.

glynnjamin

Apr 5, 2009, 11:06 PM

Outskirts? Really? It's Phoenix, so Phoenix is supporting it. What's not to understand. And, guess what, people in North Phoenix need places to shop, too.

Last thing, someone called CN a "huge" complex. Um, hardly.

They have a place, it is called Desert Ridge. Instead of developing one piece of land properly they have three screwed up places (Desert Ridge, CityNorth, and CityScape). To say that people in North Phoenix need somewhere to shop is just ignoring that rich people will almost ALWAYS opt for Scottsdale over Phoenix. It is about the area to them. Think of it as name brand locations.

I drove through CityNorth today and thought of a few things. Aren't these all stores that we need in downtown too? Aren't these all places that already exist 4 or 5 miles away at Kierland or Fashion Sq? Downtown could use a Talbots, Chicos, MoJo, Bag & Baggage, and a ton of those places. CityNorth was just as deserted as downtown Phoenix today. Desert Ridge, however, was completely packed. It is too bad that they couldn't focus on having one quality product in Phoenix. CityNorth was rushed to beat One Scottsdale. They succeeded but opened in the middle of a recession, could lose their financial support (depending on the AZ Supreme Court), and mean while, the city doesn't see any money until Phase II is done. Ouch.

As far as it not being huge, if you don't think 144 acres is huge then I am envious of you.

PHX NATIVE 929

Apr 5, 2009, 11:12 PM

Good luck being the broker/Landlord trying to convince a Chico's or Talbots into a downtown Phoenix location. Tenants don't simply pretend that demographics don't exist. I'd love to see them downtown too, but this isn't charity work for them. They need to be profitable.

Retail follows rooftops. Where are the rooftops?

Chicken and egg. Chicken and egg.

glynnjamin

Apr 6, 2009, 6:28 AM

^What do you mean no rooftops? As far as I can tell, there are a ton of rooftops that are within a small radius than the 101 and 56th St. In fact, I would propose that the CityNorth area has some of the fewest rooftops within a 10mile radius of any major retail location in Phoenix. Looking at the number of houses that are within 10miles of downtown Phoenix, I see a much greater density. Map (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&ll=33.565428,-112.017975&spn=0.485183,1.40625&z=10&msid=104497473367500745267.000466dc9b81cf682ca10)

OBVIOUSLY the CN group has more money but the number of people who live inside that 10mile radius of downtown DO EXIST. One of the biggest mistakes that seems to be made by retailers is that they think that since no one lives in the former Copper Square that no one lives near downtown. All of the people who want to reduce their commute to work live here. All of the people who want historic homes live here. And yes, a lot of the ghetto people live here too.

Those who live here have to deal with this reality:
Home Depot - 7 miles away
PetSmart - 6 miles away
Red Robin - 12 miles away

I could keep naming stupid chain stores that are far away from downtown residents. The reality is, we have it better than areas like Maryvale. The people who live in West Phoenix would travel into downtown, as would people from South Phoenix and Central Phoenix. If retailers would stop ignoring the houses that surround downtown just because the people who live in them aren't white, they would see that there are plenty of people to buy things. There is a more stable residency base around downtown Phoenix than there is around Bell & Grand but that area gets tons of new stuff every year.

I don't want downtown to be full of chain stores, but a few would help bring in people and other stores. I don't think people have to live within a mile of a store in order to frequent it. You will shop wherever has the places you want to go and takes the least time to get to. There is no reason downtown can't have that. Especially now that we have the LRT.

PHX NATIVE 929

Apr 6, 2009, 7:27 AM

I didn't say there were zero rooftops, just not enough yet. Most retailers primarily study the demo's in a 1,3, 5 mile radius from any prospective location. Additionally, the average household income levels inside the existing rooftops near downtown are frankly not in line with the required numbers sought out by many national chains. Finally, fair or unfair/right or wrong, Phoenicians are accustomed to large, open, "convenient" surface parking lots for quick in and out shopping. Downtown Phoenix is a major wildcard for any prospective retailer because they don't know if enough Phoenix shoppers will adapt. Past sales results at the Arizona Center surely don't help the cause.

There are simply too many "safer" options for retailers to open up shop. It's a copycat business and they tend to follow what works. RED will need to offer tremendous incentives to these tenants to fully lease their available retail space. RED knows that.

As for CityNorth, I have serious doubts as to whether Nordstrom's, Macy's, or Bloomingdale's will open within the next 3 years, if at all. No anchors spells disaster for those high-end retailers. I'm guessing they're paying percentage rent only right now. Kona Grill, Blue Martini, and a few of the other restaurants may make it, but the shops are in trouble. While the income levels are sufficient near CN, they're hurt by the fact that much of the Desert Ridge land that was expected to be developed residentially by now has not been (and won't for a long while). The shops also have no visibility from the 101 and many don't even have visibility off of Deer Valley Road. It simply fails to compete with Kierland, which is basically it's number one competitor.

PhxPavilion

Apr 6, 2009, 8:40 AM

Outskirts? Really? It's Phoenix, so Phoenix is supporting it. What's not to understand. And, guess what, people in North Phoenix need places to shop, too.

Last thing, someone called CN a "huge" complex. Um, hardly.

Yes....really. Do you understand why Phoenix is the way it is? Until the process of development changes, Central will always have large vacant lots and empty streets.

glynnjamin

Apr 6, 2009, 3:15 PM

There are simply too many "safer" options for retailers to open up shop. It's a copycat business and they tend to follow what works. RED will need to offer tremendous incentives to these tenants to fully lease their available retail space. RED knows that.

Well, I guess that was the point of me bringing up CityNorth in the first place. CityNorth shouldn't need incentives to be developed. They shouldn't need $100M from the city to be convinced that a development in that area would work. Desert Ridge is booming. (At the time) One Scottsdale looks promising. The block south of the 101 on Scottsdale Road is being built up. There is another project being built on Tatum just south of the 101. There are TONS of developers that are throwing money into that area without any sort of city incentives. For $100M, the city could have provided the incentives to do something like CityNorth in downtown. I know that sounds sort of crazy, but I think it is doable. The CityScape area is about half as big as CityNorth but has greater height restrictions. It just seems like between what they offered for CityNorth and what they offered for CityScape, we could have gotten something amazing in the heart of downtown that maybe didn't feature Bloomingdales but at least had a Dillards.

Smalisz

Apr 7, 2009, 12:22 AM

Hello Everyone, I've been reading these forums since the begging construction of 44 Monroe, but i just never created an account until today. Im a senior in high school and am very interested in architecture.

CityNorth was rushed to beat One Scottsdale. They succeeded but opened in the middle of a recession, could lose their financial support (depending on the AZ Supreme Court), and mean while, the city doesn't see any money until Phase II is done. Ouch.

As far as it not being huge, if you don't think 144 acres is huge then I am envious of you.

I work at Citynorth, two ladies that work on the 4th floor Office told me that they have lost funding for phase II. I'm waiting for them to come back in for some more info.

combusean

Apr 7, 2009, 1:47 AM

The Court of Appeals paid no attention to the level of density in CityNorth, which is fundamentally stupid. Ultimately, I think they *did* chock it up to a pissing contest between Phoenix and Scottsdale but if they had a clue about where the raw square footage numbers come from that push those numbers ever higher in Phoenix's favor, perhaps they would have ruled otherwise. Incentives for vastly expensive construction of parking spaces to make that level of density happen is worthwhile. The template for Phoenix should be 4 - 5 story urban projects like it. It's big enough that anything on the border could be significant in the terms of the area's future development.

The Court of Appeals doesn't take into account the people that actually won't buy anything, but use other public spaces in the project, ie, walk down the sidewalk and enjoy the future greenspace and windowshop. It assumes that everybody will be engaging in a transaction. Since people who don't buy anything typically get charged full price for parking at private areas, the public enjoyment of public facilities at a bare minimum price should be encouraged. If CityNorth had private rights of way it would be a different story.

HX_Guy

Apr 10, 2009, 8:33 PM

Looking good for Cityscape. Apparently they will announce additional tenants in the new few weeks, and it seems the Kimpton Hotel (which of course means Tower #2) are still a go, especially since companies are looking at that as a major reason to relocate.

I wonder what the deal is with Central Park East and how it's managed to attract no one so far. Could it be that just the retail/restaurant/hotel portion of Cityscape has everyone flocking there and not even considering CPE?

Law firm signs lease for 54,000 square feet at CityScape
Phoenix Business Journal - by Jan Buchholz

Jennings Strouss & Salmon PLC signed a lease with RED Development for 54,000 square feet in the first phase of CityScape, a three-block mixed-use project under construction in downtown Phoenix.

The law firm expects to move into the new office in June 2010. It is 20,000 square feet smaller than the space Jennings now occupies at the neighboring Collier Center.

John West, managing attorney at Jennings, said new technology, customized design and other amenities will allow the 90-attorney firm to be more productive in less space.

“Our costs will be less in the long run than staying put,” he said.

Two other large law firms also are moving to CityScape. Squire Sanders & Dempsey LLP signed for 80,000 square feet, and Ballard Spahr Andrews & Ingersoll LLP will occupy 40,000 square feet.

Keith Earnest, RED’s vice president of development, said the lease terms typically are 10 to 15 years. Financial terms were not disclosed.

A key selling point for Jennings, West said, was the [CompanyWatch allows you to receive email alerts with stories related to your companies of interest. <p>You can watch up to ten companies at a time.</p>] Kimpton Hotel Palomar that will be part of CityScape.

“Having a hotel on the property for clients is another one of the amenities we like,” West said.

RED previously announced that Urban Outfitters, Fox Restaurant Concepts, Gold’s Gym and AJ’s Fine Foods will have operations in CityScape. Earnest said another major retailer will be announced in the next few weeks.

With the Jennings announcement, the CityScape office tower is 55 percent preleased, mostly by professional service firms.

“Across the Valley, new office leases are being signed every day,” said Jonathan Keyser, principal of [CompanyWatch allows you to receive email alerts with stories related to your companies of interest. <p>You can watch up to ten companies at a time.</p>] Cresa Partners, a national tenant representation firm with offices in Phoenix.

Dramatic increases in office vacancies are opening the door for many tenants to bargain with landlords for better deals, Keyser said.

“We are busy renegotiating leases across the state and across the country, and we are picking up new national clients who need help managing their real estate portfolios more effectively,” he said.

Along those lines, he said, the buzzword is “rightsizing.”

“Tenants are trying to figure out ways to do more with less,” Keyser said.
Get Connected

RED Development: www.reddevelopment.com

Additionally, someone had said the Sales Office was dead, but driving by today it looked like there was some new rebar in place at a few places at the site so who knows?

Finally...a few update shots...

http://nitnelav.com/DTApril92009/1.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/DTApril92009/2.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/DTApril92009/3.jpg

AZ KID

Apr 10, 2009, 9:43 PM

Great news! i think this one is going to be a beauty

HX_Guy

Apr 10, 2009, 9:46 PM

The best thing about this tower is the blue glass among the five other beige/brown towers (City Hall, Wells Fargo, Colliers, Phelps Dodge, BofA). I agree, it's going to look great.

HooverDam

Apr 10, 2009, 10:45 PM

Im glad to hear Cityscape is filling up, but on the other hand it does seem to be coming at the expense of other downtown towers. Wells Fargo will be moving over there, and now some law firms are leaving the Collier center too. I suppose thats normal as "A" tenants will want "A" space, and perhaps their old spaces will fill up quickly, I hope so.

Phoenix really needs to get more aggressive in attracting big businesses to downtown to fill up our current towers/towers under construction and create some demand for new ones.

PHX NATIVE 929

Apr 10, 2009, 10:53 PM

I think one of the biggest shortcomings of Phoenix's city leaders has been the failure to "recruit" Fortune 500 companies from other parts of our country.

HooverDam

Apr 10, 2009, 11:04 PM

^I agree wholeheartedly. Here is an article from AzCentral that in a way touches on the subject (perhaps this should be in the Phx Development news forum, but whatever):

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/2009/04/10/20090410fri1-10.html

Economic summit the right move in trying times
3 comments Apr. 10, 2009 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic
State leaders on Thursday put the budget crisis right where it should be: center stage.

Arizonans turned out to learn more about the problem. An overflow crowd of about 800 packed the Tempe Arts Center for an economic summit, Convening the Community, organized by the Greater Phoenix Economic Council.

The response alone represents a step forward. The state's economic challenge is so great that Arizonans must come together to solve it. We need to understand the dimensions of the revenue shortfall. We need to set priorities and weigh trade-offs. We need to decide which strategies will put Arizona on track to emerge from this recession as a strong competitor.

GPEC chairman Michael Bidwill, better known as president of the Arizona Cardinals, drew on sports terms as he introduced the summit. The downturn will produce winners and losers, he observed, and "Arizona will not be a winner without the right game plan."

This is not nearly as obvious as it sounds. Gov. Jan Brewer is warning against temporary patches for fiscal 2010 that leave holes in later years. As Tom Manos, her deputy chief of staff for finance, pointed out, "We can no longer afford to focus on just the current budget year."

Brewer's five-point budget plan includes a temporary tax increase, an unavoidable last resort in these tough times.

Senate President Bob Burns and House Speaker Kirk Adams told the summit they remain opposed to a tax increase at this point. "That should be the very last thing we talk about," Burns said.

They ran through a list of alternatives that include taking on additional debt, selling state assets and turning over management of government services to the private sector. Those options should be explored for their viability, value in solving our long-term financial challenges and impact on our economic health.

Education got a special spotlight at the summit, a half-hour roundtable on K-12, community colleges and universities.

That's fitting.

Arizona's vitality depends on a strong education system. But education also represents half of state spending and thus is a prime target for cuts.

What's an adequate investment in education? How will we pay for it?

With a $3 billion gap in the fiscal 2010 budget, Arizonans must consider such questions, discuss them and then communicate their priorities to legislators.

Thursday's summit was pulled together in just two weeks. GPEC chairman Bidwill said more are planned. Some business and civic groups also are taking the initiative to look at the state budget.

This shouldn't be a spectator sport.

Every Arizonan should be a player in devising an effective, sustainable solution to the state's monumental budget problem.

gymratmanaz

Apr 11, 2009, 2:07 PM

Any guesses of who the "Major retailor" will be? Article said another will be announces in the coming few weeks.

HX_Guy

Apr 11, 2009, 4:39 PM

Could it be just CVS? The article said they are rumored (and their logo is all over the fence wrapping...so how is that a rumor) but they have never actually been formally announced, have they?

gymratmanaz

Apr 11, 2009, 5:20 PM

awwww that would stink, since we already know they are coming....was hoping for something new and exciting!

gymratmanaz

Apr 11, 2009, 7:30 PM

Cityscape news....( in phoenix thread too, sorry).... He may only be a security guard who has been on site for 4 months, but he told me the plan is, as soon as the dirt ramp is removed, which they have started to remove the eccess dirt, they will then put the second crane in. He seemed knowledgible and not making stuff up. He said they will remove the ramp and then crane everything in.

ALSO, yes, the sales center is moving again. It is fenced and screened off. There is lots of new rebar installed and waiting to be installed. There is also some machinery inside.

AND - Damn, they are craning in glass like crazy. I watched non-stop pallets of glass and trucks rolling in as soon as the previous was done.

combusean

Apr 11, 2009, 11:12 PM

http://nitnelav.com/DTApril92009/3.jpg

The part on the right screams Chase Tower--same design pattern in the glass, same setback from the street, same overall proportion, but a better color.

This thing reminds me of like 5 already existing towers mishmashed into one.

reguyphx

Apr 12, 2009, 12:09 AM

I agree that the city needs to step up and do a better job promoting and recruiting companies with higher paying jobs to the valley, especially to downtown. All of the tenants moving to Cityscape are from other CBD buildings, and won't increase the amount of people in downtown using the new restraunts and other amenities. So to me no new employment plus more retail equals a tough environment for many retailers, but I hope more people who don't live or work downtown will continue to come and try the many great restraunts. By the way I don't think Wells Fargo will be moving into the project and will be trying to sublease the space that Wachovia leased.

HooverDam

Apr 12, 2009, 1:58 AM

From today (April 11, 09):
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5631/dsc0145ovf.jpg
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/875/dsc0146.jpg

Lots of people taking the train to the game w/ CityScape in the background:
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/262/dsc0150g.jpg

HX_Guy

Apr 12, 2009, 2:09 AM

This is a great looking shot. Cityscape is going to dwarf Phelps Dodge from this perspective, it's only at 16 stories and still has 11 more to go.

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/875/dsc0146.jpg

Leo the Dog

Apr 12, 2009, 5:06 PM

This is a great looking shot. Cityscape is going to dwarf Phelps Dodge from this perspective, it's only at 16 stories and still has 11 more to go.

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/875/dsc0146.jpg

Are they going to have to extend the crane again? It doesn't look tall enough to top off the building.

This is a great looking building. 1st St. corridor looks great with all of the blue glass of CPE, Chase and CityScape. I'm keeping my fingers crossed with phase II.

HX_Guy

Apr 12, 2009, 5:12 PM

Yea the crane is def. going to go up at least one more time.

gymratmanaz

Apr 12, 2009, 5:54 PM

I was just downtown. Wow, they really did cut the dirt ramp in half!

I also have now hear that they are planning on the first occupants to be in in January.

plinko

Apr 13, 2009, 4:12 AM

HX_Guy

Apr 13, 2009, 6:37 PM

Patriots Park demolition permit...again!. There was one issued back in November, but it expired, since a requirement of demo permits are that demolition work starts within 30 days of the issuance and is completed within 60 days. Let's hope they actually do some work this time!

Permit# DEM-09006227 Issue Date 4/13/09 Expires 6/12/09
Permit Description DEMOLITION OF PATRIOTS SQUARE PARK
Project 06-5309 CITYSCAPE

Description/Scope of Work: DEMO PERMIT ONLY

DESCRIPTION OF WORK:
TOTAL DEMOLITION OF EXISITING MISC STUCTURES, HARDSCAPE, AND ONSITE PLUMBING & ELECTRICAL AT PATRIOTS SQUARE PARK. SEE DEMO PLAN.

gymratmanaz

Apr 13, 2009, 7:04 PM

From your lips tp God's ear!

At least make it look nice, clear the decks!!!!!

NorthScottsdale

Apr 13, 2009, 11:16 PM

is it just me, or does anyone else think that just about everything in this city looks a million times better when its cloudy and rainy? maybe its just because the wetness tones down all the brown... Cityscape is gonna look great!

JimInCal

Apr 14, 2009, 2:04 AM

Not that there's a bit more glass on the thing, I think the photos are really showing the quality of the glazing design. That being said, I'm still not sold on the spandrels. Are they aluminum? white? stainless? It's really hard to tell...

I as always withold my final judgement until I see it in person (probably this summer sometime).

I am in town for a few days and did a walkabout today. I took a lot of photos and will see if I yield some worthy to post after I get home in a couple of days. The spandrels could be matte aluminum. They are metallic in tone but not shiny. I took the light rail from DT and passed the Washington side facade and it appeared as though the spandrels are a darker tone of matte silver/aluminum than the the other sides. I don't think it was the lighting, but I suppose it could have been. I love the glass. I was at Cityscape aroud 4:00 PM and the sky had high clouds that pretty much coverd the sun. The glass looked very silvery with the cloud cover. I assume that a bright blue sky would reflect and make the glass more blue in tone. It will really help break up the tones of dirt in the area.

PhxPavilion

Apr 14, 2009, 2:19 AM

The spandrels are a matte grey, you can see them from Washington by the Phelps Dodge tower, they have begun installing the glass on the north side as well. The glass itself has a neutral reflective coating.

reguyphx

Apr 14, 2009, 3:01 AM

The Wachovia space at CityScape is now on the market for sublease, www.officestreet.com/cityscape.

HX_Guy

Apr 14, 2009, 6:15 AM

Well, good to see that they are still bound to it. Probably good that they aren't moving out of the Wells Fargo building, leaving a huge empty space there. Would be great to see a new company come into downtown.

renone

Apr 14, 2009, 6:57 PM

They are starting on PSP! I am watching a backhoe start on the bricks right now.

gymratmanaz

Apr 14, 2009, 7:05 PM

THANK YOU GOD!!!!! Finally, the bricks are going!!!!!!

gymratmanaz

Apr 14, 2009, 7:05 PM

Wish there was a camera to watch Cityscape like the one on the Civic Space Park.

HX_Guy

Apr 14, 2009, 7:29 PM

Wells Fargo nixes CityScape-Wachovia anchor deal
Phoenix Business Journal - by Mike Sunnucks and Jan Buchholz

Wells Fargo & Co. will not be moving into the CityScape office tower being built in downtown Phoenix.

Instead, the San Francisco-based bank (NYSE:WFC) will sublease the three floors that Wachovia Corp. was to occupy at the project, slated for completion in March 2010.

Wachovia leased 67,400 square feet at CityScape as part of a planned expansion in the Phoenix market, but Wells took over that lease as part of a $15.1 billion merger with the financially stressed Wachovia. Wachovia was to be an anchor tenant in the development.

Wells Fargo spokeswoman Marjorie Rice said Tuesday the bank determined that its existing office space is sufficient to accommodate Wachovia operations. Wells has an office complex in downtown Phoenix just blocks from the CityScape construction.

The sublease is being handled by the CB Richard Ellis.

CB broker Brad Anderson said the lease term is 10 years and Wells prefers subleasing to one tenant, but is open to breaking up the space under the right circumstances. “The bank is negotiable,” he said. Anderson said he is optimistic there will be demand for the CityScape space.

CityScape is a 2.5 million-square-foot office, condo and retail development being built by RED Development LLC. The 600,000-square-foot office tower is part of the project.

RED officials said Tuesday the Wells Fargo/Wachovia lease comprised 7 percent of the office space at the tower.

“We understand that things sometimes change and we look forward to working with Wells Fargo to find a suitable alternative for their space,” said RED managing partner Mark Ebert.

Officials at RED, however, did not respond to questions about the loss of a signature tenant whose name was intended to light up the top of the 27-story tower.

CityScape is receiving close to $100 million in incentives from the city of Phoenix. The downtown development has inked a number of office and retail tenants including Jennings Strouss & Salmon and Squire Sanders & Dempsey law firms, a CVS Pharmacy, Urban Outfitters, Fox Restaurant Concepts and Gold’s Gym, according to RED.

HX_Guy

Apr 14, 2009, 7:44 PM

Wish there was a camera to watch Cityscape like the one on the Civic Space Park.

Well...you do have these two views. The first is great for watching the tower currently under construction. The second one may catch the 2nd tower when that goes up, and it will catch what is going on at Patriots Park. Not the best views, but it's something...

http://instacam.com/showcam.asp?id=PHBOB&size=L
http://wwc.instacam.com/instacamimg3/phbob/04142009/041420091336_l.jpg

http://instacam.com/showcam.asp?id=PHNXA&size=L
http://wwc.instacam.com/instacamimg2/phnxa/04142009/041420091230_l.jpg

If you right click on the image (after you go to the link) and click "Show image", it will show you a larger, slightly higher res. then what you see in the link.

Luke Skyscraper

Apr 14, 2009, 7:59 PM

Hey kids,
There were some posts back in early March indicating that the tower was to be 28 stories (adding 40K feet). HX, you were in on the posts, I believe. But the latest press release about Wells Farge sub leasing their space still says it is a 27 story tower. Clarification, anyone?:shrug:

HX_Guy

Apr 14, 2009, 8:08 PM

Who knows...guess we'll have to wait till it tops out. Ive seen both 27 and 28 used.

gymratmanaz

Apr 14, 2009, 8:41 PM

same......have to wait and see and count. Right now i am more focused on crane #2! Sounding more probable and possible..... :)

Luke Skyscraper

Apr 14, 2009, 8:48 PM

As I am in Boston, I am counting on your eyes (and ears) to keep me aprised of the floor count. Seeing that second crane go up will be exciting as well. Much appreciated!:cheers:

HooverDam

Apr 15, 2009, 4:26 AM

This isn't a big surprise, but its good news:

http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2009/04/14/20090414drugstore0415.html

Downtown pharmacy set to open at CityScape next year
2 comments by Jahna Berry - Apr. 14, 2009 04:33 PM
The Arizona Republic
CVS Pharmacy will open a drugstore in downtown Phoenix's CityScape complex, company officials will announce Wednesday. It would be the first time since 1976 that a pharmacy stood in the downtown neighborhood south of the Interstate 10.

The planned 13,000-square-foot drugstore could open as early as June 2010 on the southwest corner of Jefferson Street and First Avenue, said Michael DeNitto, a CVS regional director.

The downtown drugstore would end three decades of frustration. Many office workers, visitors and residents have had trouble finding a nearby place to buy cold medicine, greeting cards or pantyhose.

For most, the nearest drugstore - a CVS Pharmacy at Seventh Street and McDowell Road - is more than a mile away.

On an earlier Phoenix business trip, Marlo Beaubrun rented a car to get to there.

"We had to go all the way out to McDowell to get makeup and shoe inserts," said Beaubrun, a member of North Dakota's Standing Rock Souix Tribe, who was in Phoenix this week for a National Indian Gaming Association meeting.

The CVS joins a growing list of tenants at CityScape, a three-block cluster with shops, offices, condos and a hotel. Other tenants, including Urban Outfitters, Gold's Gym and AJ's Fine Foods are also expected to open in 2010, said Jeff Moloznik, development manager for RED Development.

CVS has 130 Arizona stores.

Recent downtown projects, including the new ASU campus and condo projects, helped build a customer base that could support a downtown CVS, DeNitto said.

The last Phoenix downtown pharmacy, a Walgreens near Central Avenue and Washington Street closed in 1976.

In other developments, Wells Fargo & Co. confirmed that it won't occupy three floors of a CityScape office tower. Wachovia committed to the space before Well Fargo acquired the bank. Wells Fargo is looking for a firm to sublease it, a bank spokeswoman said.

reguyphx

Apr 15, 2009, 4:59 AM

27 stories, but the top floor will be 28, no 13th floor.

HX_Guy

Apr 15, 2009, 5:59 AM

7th St & McDowell as the closest pharmacy? You would think Jahna Berry, who covers downtown pretty regularly, would know there is one at Central & McDowell, no?

As for the new store, even though we already knew, it's good to see an official announcement. I have to say that I do like the variety of retailers that they are bringing in at Cityscape that will set it apart from Colliers and maybe help it not have the feeling of being a Colliers II. Grocery store...gym...clothing...pharmacy...they are covering a pretty broad range, it's not your typical FedExKinkos or UPS Store and Starbucks with a couple restaurants added on. The location sounds good too on the SW corner of 1st Ave/Jefferson. By looking at the site plan, it looks like it will have dual entrances? One off the street and one from the center? That out toward the street better not be one of those blank, handle-less exit doors that you see on the rear of buildings.

http://nitnelav.com/CityscapeAJplan.jpg

HooverDam

Apr 15, 2009, 6:20 AM

The CVS on Mill and University has dual entrances, one facing the parking lot and another at the corner of the intersection that spills out onto the street front, I imagine this will be a similar set up w/ dual check out areas and all.

HX_Guy

Apr 15, 2009, 6:31 AM

Nice, I haven't been in that one but good to hear it's not all that uncommon.

Vicelord John

Apr 15, 2009, 8:30 AM

7th St & McDowell as the closest pharmacy? You would think Jahna Berry, who covers downtown pretty regularly, would know there is one at Central & McDowell, no?

or the fact that the one at 7th and mcdowell is a walgreen's

and how bout the fact that the article states CVS will be on the southwest corner of 1st avenue and Jefferson... really? So this isn't part of cityscape and they are going to tear down government buildings?

This Jahna berry person doesn't deserve to be a reporter. How can you be a reporter and CONSTANTLY report incorrect information. She does it in almost EVERY article.

NIXPHX77

Apr 15, 2009, 8:33 AM

i don't think they mean the swc of 1st ave and Jefferson. it's the southwest corner of the project and of the block, but the cvs will actually be at the nec of 1st ave and Jeff., right?

gymratmanaz

Apr 15, 2009, 12:52 PM

It is on the block of PSP, to the west of the new parking garagre entrance.

gymratmanaz

Apr 15, 2009, 12:53 PM

Will the CVS be two stroies or will there be something else above it?

Leo the Dog

Apr 15, 2009, 2:23 PM

As I am in Boston, I am counting on your eyes (and ears) to keep me aprised of the floor count. Seeing that second crane go up will be exciting as well. Much appreciated!:cheers:

How is the local economy in Boston these days? I noticed the financial district and DT Crossing has had a nice boom in the past 3 years.

Luke Skyscraper

Apr 15, 2009, 2:48 PM

Leo,
Overall the Boston economy is fairly healthy- at least compared to most of the rest of the country.

There is a good amount of new (high rise) construction in Boston and Cambridge. They are starting a massive waterfront development in South Boston. There is also a great deal of mid rise construction around the rt 128 high tech corridor. Some projects have stalled or cancelled, but not to the extend I see in greater Phoenix.
On the downside, the city and state are running massive deficits. A lot of city/state workers will be let go in the near future. The Boston Globe may close this month.
The last of the snow in my yard just melted about a week ago. I so miss Arizona weather!