Phoenix CityScape Thread

[PHX NATIVE 929]

... a friend in the business.

[HX_Guy]

Most comedy clubs don't have theater style seating. Its usually a flat floor with round tables & 4 people or so sit at each one.

If true, it is interesting that the club has 600 sits, from everything I can find the Tempe Improvs capacity is about 420. That could potentially mean when bigger acts come to town they'd be playing this downtown club instead of at the Improv, could be very interesting.

Yea, I've been to the Improv and seen how it's setup, and it's fine...when it's a small venue. But 600 seats sounds pretty big and sitting way in the back would kind of suck.

Good point on the larger acts coming to this instead of Improv though, could be really good.

[glynnjamin]

hopefully this means acts will be going to SUL instead of Dodge. I wanted to see Joel McHale over new years but there was no way I was going to sit in Dodge. Who wants to watch a comedian and not be able to have waiter service?

[HooverDam]

hopefully this means acts will be going to SUL instead of Dodge. I wanted to see Joel McHale over new years but there was no way I was going to sit in Dodge. Who wants to watch a comedian and not be able to have waiter service?

Unlikely as thats just two different sorts of tours. I saw Seinfeld at Dodge, obviously he's too big to do places like the Improv unless he was there every day for 2 weeks or something. McHale is an Improv level guy but since that was a big event (NYE) obviously they could do a bigger one off show. The Dodge seats 5,500 so its just sort of a different circuit than this potential club.

But I could see guys like Bob Saget or Joe Rogan for instance going to this place instead of the Improv. Guys who are big but don't really do theater shows. Though the Improv has a pretty great reputation and is really national known so they'll have something of an uphill battle initial.

I just hope they're supportive of local guys and let them open, do a local night, etc.

[gymratmanaz]

HUGE!!!!!! This better be true or else! LOL

[glynnjamin]

They won't be supportive of local comedians if Mer has his say. He hated on local comedians the entire time he owned the Improv.

[HooverDam]

They won't be supportive of local comedians if Mer has his say. He hated on local comedians the entire time he owned the Improv.

I've heard that. That was before my time though so I don't have much experience with it first hand. But times and people change and local comedy has gotten markedly better and bigger in the last few years it seems to me, so I remain hopeful.

[gymratmanaz]

This club will greatly help to support Cityscape and the restaurants and clothing stores. Even though you can eat at both this Improv Club and The Lucky Strike, there will be those who will eat at the other places at Cityscape before or after going to these clubs. NICE ADDITIONS!!!!

Wonder when an official announcement might come?

[HooverDam]

This club will greatly help to support Cityscape and the restaurants and clothing stores. Even though you can eat at both this Improv Club and The Lucky Strike, there will be those who will eat at the other places at Cityscape before or after going to these clubs. NICE ADDITIONS!!!!

Wonder when an official announcement might come?

Indeed, additionally it along with Lucky Strike will add pieces that downtown desperately needs to things to do AFTER events. Sure comedy clubs big nights are Fri/Sat/Sun but if this owner has anything other than a box of rocks for brains every night after Suns and D'backs games let out he'll have a local show. Make it a no cover show and just rake in drink and food money for people who still wanna have fun after games.

[gymratmanaz]

3 new trees on the north side of tower #1

Major silver steel pillars are attached to the wall to the north of the escalator by Golds Gym. Will there be some sort of big canopy attached to them? I am not sure of the schematic or plans. Anyone with ideas or info???

[Vicelord John]

Waiting on an email and then I can post up a sweet update on something we already knew something about but not much about.

[gymratmanaz]

Vicelord - I am on the edge of my seat!! Something worth getting excited about?

Also, I checked the steel pillars mounted on the walls by the escalator. They are for shade screens. Cause Lord knows you need to be shaded going up escalators and not stairs. Why at all places do they put shade over escalators and not stairs or ramps???? Anyone else notice that?

[Vicelord John]

Well I never got that email, but it was going to be some detailed info about The Chop House.

Here is a picture from tonight.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/DSC_2502.jpg

[CANUC]

Don't know if anyone else noticed but they installed some trees along Washington. Seems a bit early for landscaping considering they haven't removed the fencing.

[gymratmanaz]

Yes, I posted about the trees 4 posts above yours. :)

[HX_Guy]

Cityscape has officially signed leases (they are recorded with the Maricopa County Recorder's office) with a few retail tenants. We knew about them all...except for one it seems, and I'm not sure why it wasn't announced.

PAR EXSALONCE CITYSCAPE LLC = www.parexsalonceaz.com/
URBAN OUTFITTERS INC.
OMNI APPAREL GROUP LLC (Women's clothing retailer)
LUCKY STRIKE PHOENIX LLC

Also, Bashas is trying to get out of it's lease at Cityscape through the bankruptcy court since they did officially sign a lease for 9,500 sq ft @ $28.50/sq ft.

[renone]

Does anyone have something resembling a current map of the PSP retail revealing which store will go where? I'm struggling to figure out how the PSP space is going to fit a grocery store, a spa, a bowling alley, a comedy club and several retail stores and restuarants. The space is big, but not that big.

[gymratmanaz]

CVS in lower 1st floor on SW corner
Gracery on other SE half
Lucky Strike 2nd floor upper SW side
Improve 2nd floor upper SE side
Urban outfitters in smaller building.
not sure about where others go. Hope that helps

By the way, any chance you can get a picture of the Mesa south of tower #1 ( in betwwen where tower 1 and 2 will be)? Hard to see what they have done so far. Is the angle good for you to get a shot?

[renone]

Unfortunately, I cannot get a good shot. The construction has almost blocked my view of the mesa entirely.

[azliam]

Wait till it wraps around the whole halo. A Hunt supervisor told me they might have it all lit sometime in the first week of January. That will be awesome!!!!!

Whatever happened with this?

[gymratmanaz]

Not sire, still looks like they need one more panel to finish the halo. They have the lights installed. Maybe they are waiting to officially turn the whole thing on when the building opens.....not sure.

[Vicelord John]

Ive been waiting everyday for them to come on. The suns colored lights on the hyatt arent on anymore either.

Ps i guess my suspension is over. Was supposed to be three weeks i heard but i pm'd one of the main mods and proved to him that what i said wasnt too bad. His rebuttal is that it was mixed with somwthing i did a year ago. I called him out and said wtf, a year?!?!

Never heard back but now two days later im able to post. Mmmmm perhaps someone realized the error.

[Don B.]

Ps i guess my suspension is over. Was supposed to be three weeks i heard but i pm'd one of the main mods and proved to him that what i said wasnt too bad. His rebuttal is that it was mixed with somwthing i did a year ago. I called him out and said wtf, a year?!?!

Never heard back but now two days later im able to post. Mmmmm perhaps someone realized the error.

Really? You are going to post this in a thread?

Perhaps if you took a different tact with things, you would not find yourself being suspended about four times a year.

And how do you prove that what you said "wasn't too bad?" I may try this with a cop next time.

--don

[Vicelord John]

Because several people had much harsher things to say and were not repremanded. In fact, all i did was tell a guy not to insult my fu**ing city. Tha was IT! Hardly suspension worthy on any account. So yes, Don, i'm going to post this in a thread.

[glynnjamin]

So is anyone going to Hula's tomorrow to get the scoop on CityScape?

[Vicelord John]

Thats the first ive heard about it. What is supposed to go on?

[glynnjamin]

Radiate Phx 5:30-7pm @ Hula's on Tuesday
Representatives will be on hand from CityScape to answer questions and give updates on the project.

[plinko]

Radiate Phx 5:30-7pm @ Hula's on Tuesday
Representatives will be on hand from CityScape to answer questions and give updates on the project.

*eagerly awaiting the news update from this where the Cityscape reps claim that Tower 2 is going vertical soon despite the fact that they have no permits to do so*

Oh well, maybe they'll announce some new tenants or something...

[HX_Guy]

Is this the place?

Hula's Modern Tiki
4700 North Central Avenue
Phoenix, AZ 85012
(602) 265-8454

[glynnjamin]

Yup, right by Lola Coffee by the light rail. Across from Xavier.

[HX_Guy]

Nice...I'll check it out and make sure to ask about the permits for the hotel.

[PHX31]

Nice...I'll check it out and make sure to ask about the permits for the hotel.

Ask about permits for "Tower 2" (unless that's not what they call it). Hopefully Tower 2 is hotel + other stuff, rather than just a hotel.

[PhxPavilion]

If anything does go up it will be significantly reduced so.....bleh.

[HX_Guy]

And that's correct.

The big news from tonight is that the hotel will indeed be topped off at 12 stories. It's being built to be able to add on later, but when later may be? They don't know.

They said that the first 3 levels (retail) will start going vertical in the next 1-2 weeks and will be done by the end of March at which point the hotel will go vertical and be topped out March/April 2011 with an opening date of July 2011.

I didn't ask about the permits, I'll give them a phone call about it, I didn't want to put them on the spot up in front of everyone.

Not sure if everyone knew, but RED Development is moving their offices from Scottsdale to Cityscape, bringing about 50 employees and occupying 15,000 sq ft.

The office tower is 75% leased, the retail is 80% leased and once they finalize the grocer and "another entertainment venue" (which we already know about on here but he didn't say who at the meeting), it will be 90% leased.

The halo on the office tower will be lit by end of February. First office tenant moves in March 1st.

[Jsmscaleros]

12 stories ain't too shabby at all. I'd even take 1 story over the Collier's vacant tower footprint philosophy.

[PhxPavilion]

Not surprising, although the possibility of adding on later is interesting.

[Don B.]

^ Very interesting, indeed. Of course, there's precedent for this in Phoenix:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v22/don85259/Phoenix/Historical%20photos/CentralAvenuelookingnorthin1950s.jpg

:)

--don

[TAZ4ate0]

Hey, I'll take 12 stories, because it's 12 stories taller than what was there before.

I'll admit that I'm somewhat disappointed. It's interesting, and cool, that they will be building with the intention of adding on later. What that might be is anyone's guess, but lets hope that whatever it is, takes the tower to that 510' or so height.

[gymratmanaz]

A bird in the hand............

[Tempe_Duck]

^ Very interesting, indeed. Of course, there's precedent for this in Phoenix:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v22/don85259/Phoenix/Historical%20photos/CentralAvenuelookingnorthin1950s.jpg

:)

--don


Don do you have a after pic. I don't know what I am looking at.

[Vicelord John]

really? you've never been up central avenue in midtown?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/135/327795244_70ce5fbcc3.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/135/327795244_70ce5fbcc3.jpg

[dtnphx]

It's frustrating that it won't be taller initally, but as you can see from the Davis Architects rendering, the building looks as though it was designed with the hotel at it's core and then whatever type of tower attached to it, rather than an organic tower to begin with.

http://www.thedavisexperience.com/home.php

(click on CityScape)

[Don B.]

^ Their vision projects were most interesting. I'll put them up in the correct thread...

--don

[scottkag]

Half a building is better than an empty pad. Perhaps the glass is half full.

[Tempe_Duck]

VJ, I have been up there, I just never realized that they added to that building.

[HooverDam]

trying to look on the bright side, a 12 story building will transition the skyline nicely between taller stuff north of Washington to the shorter historic stuff (Luhrs) south of Jefferson.

[Leo the Dog]

trying to look on the bright side, a 12 story building will transition the skyline nicely between taller stuff north of Washington to the shorter historic stuff (Luhrs) south of Jefferson.

I agree. It should create a nice streetscape along Jefferson.

When the market is ready for condos, I'm sure a developer will come along and propose something on the site in the future, when that'll be, who knows, could be 10 years out.

[Don B.]

My prediction for Shittyscape is we spent, what, $90 million in tax dollars to get a non-descript 27-story office building, a 12-story hotel, and a few other buildings of 2-3 stories in height. Big whoop.

Ten years for new construction in Phoenix? I'm not sure I'm willing to wait that long...I will be over 50 years old by the time we start cranking again...

--don

[dtnphx]

When the market recovers..which it will, perhaps they may not build on to the hotel as discussed but just build the third block out of Cityscape (Colliers empty block). That's where they proposed condos originally. In as much as Cityscape didn't pan out exactly as planned (what projects do, really?), overall I think it will be a boon to downtown with viable retail closer to attractions and the convention center. It may also be a catalyst for other things we can barely think of. Here's to hopin.' :)

[Vicelord John]

really I think we were all naive to think all of those things were really going to be built.

[gymratmanaz]

Happy with what we got!!!!!!

*The pedestrian bridge columns are poured.
*A clump of 5 trees is in on the NE side of tower 1
*5 more are going in on the SE corner of the same block
*2 going in between the others.
*Tree grates and up-lights in on the trees on the west side of the block
*The PSP walls are covered in some sort of speckled finish

[Leo the Dog]

Ten years for new construction in Phoenix? I'm not sure I'm willing to wait that long...I will be over 50 years old by the time we start cranking again...

--don

Agreed. This is exactly what I was saying a couple weeks ago. We're wasting our "good" years hoping that Phx will somehow magically transform into one of those other cities that we envy on SSP. Perhaps one day, Phx will be world class, but we'll all be old-timers by the time that happens.

[AZScraper]

bored :skyscraper:
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k121/ndnwotah/IMG00191-20100128-1744.jpg
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k121/ndnwotah/IMG00194-20100128-1745.jpg
Late Meeting...:superwhip
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k121/ndnwotah/IMG00192-20100128-1745.jpg

[PHX31]

Agreed. This is exactly what I was saying a couple weeks ago. We're wasting our "good" years hoping that Phx will somehow magically transform into one of those other cities that we envy on SSP. Perhaps one day, Phx will be world class, but we'll all be old-timers by the time that happens.

I don't know about any of you city/skyscraper dorks out there, but seeing the day we are having today, maybe the most glorious day in the history of the world (and it's supposed to be the same all week - mid-60s nice puffy clouds), I couldn't care less what skyscrapers we have/are getting/aren't getting, and I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. I don't envy anyone or any city.

[Vicelord John]

I think san diego is having the same weather + an ocean.

I'll take that.

[Don B.]

^ I second that notion.

Phoenix's real estate market is now absurd. Median prices are down to $102,000 here, according to city-data.com. This city is frakked. I certainly will never buy a home in this state ever again...especially with cnn and money magazine both predicting additional 23% drops in our real estate prices. That would put us back to 1980s prices.

--don

[kevininlb]

good news, the barriers that have kept you of out of SD are down. you're free to go.

[Vicelord John]

No they are still up and strong.

[combusean]

My prediction for Shittyscape is we spent, what, $90 million in tax dollars to get a non-descript 27-story office building, a 12-story hotel, and a few other buildings of 2-3 stories in height. Big whoop.

Ten years for new construction in Phoenix? I'm not sure I'm willing to wait that long...I will be over 50 years old by the time we start cranking again...

--don

No. We bought the garage as built out of a sales tax abatement--meaning they get to keep money they would have spent on sales taxes that wouldn't have been generated if it weren't built.

Too often these discussions are framed like we hand developers $100 million checks, and that's just incorrect.

[Don B.]

^ Oh, that's right. I thought this was something different. So, since there will be hardly any tax revenue generated, the developer will be getting very little on this project. But I thought we gave them the land for free and a parking garage?

Kevin, thanks for pointing out the obvious. Yes, it has occurred to me that I can now leave anytime I want. First, though, I figured I might be enough of a "stick in the mud" to get someone to buy me a ticket out of here, and to kick me in the ass on the way out. :D Besides, if a bunch of people like me leave Phoenix, it will only hurt the city in the long run. Of course, thousands of others are moving out, so it probably doesn't really matter.

--don

[Vicelord John]

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/DSC_2640.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/DSC_2639.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/DSC_2638.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/DSC_26291.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/DSC_26281.jpg

WHO THE FUCK PICKED THIS CRAPPY SHIT BALL GRAY FINISH?
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/DSC_26301.jpg

[combusean]

^ Oh, that's right. I thought this was something different. So, since there will be hardly any tax revenue generated, the developer will be getting very little on this project. But I thought we gave them the land for free and a parking garage?

Kevin, thanks for pointing out the obvious. Yes, it has occurred to me that I can now leave anytime I want. First, though, I figured I might be enough of a "stick in the mud" to get someone to buy me a ticket out of here, and to kick me in the ass on the way out. :D Besides, if a bunch of people like me leave Phoenix, it will only hurt the city in the long run. Of course, thousands of others are moving out, so it probably doesn't really matter.

--don

They got Patriots Square because the mayor hated it and it needed work anyway. The city has an abundance of under utilised land waiting for the right developer to come along, so these deals aren't out of the question except for PSP being a park.

And the city owns the garage in the end.

The premise of the whole deal is that they paid too much for Block 22 from Emilio Ambasz, a New York architect famous for his Monument Towers (http://emvis.net/~sean/ssp/projects/ambasz_monument_towers/) project and the smoking deal he got for the lot after the S&L bust.

Meanwhile, the western base of the tower looks like the Hyatt threw up on it.

[KevinFromTexas]

Vicelord John,

I believe that what Don is saying is that if a lot of professionals started to leave the city that it would be bad for Phoenix. I think though that the deciding factor there would be money, or possibly climate preference. I'm not sure your average person would care much about the built environment, in fact, most don't seem to.

[AJphx]

btw I use teutonic in my name because the teutons are my favorite unit in Medieval 2 total war(which is a great game btw). You're easily offended aren't you?
haha, I love the total war games. That explains why your location is Outremer. ;) Honestly I love that name... outremer. France still uses it to describe its island and other territories around the world.

[somethingfast]

Besides, if a bunch of people like me leave Phoenix, it will only hurt the city in the long run. Of course, thousands of others are moving out, so it probably doesn't really matter.

--don

don, dont move to houston. sucks here. very ugly. im moving to northern virginia soon and wont miss houston a bit.

[Leo the Dog]

don, dont move to houston. sucks here. very ugly. im moving to northern virginia soon and wont miss houston a bit.

Gov't Job? BTW, Northern VA is a beautiful region. :tup:

[TAZ4ate0]

don, dont move to houston. sucks here. very ugly. im moving to northern virginia soon and wont miss houston a bit.

Virginia is beautiful, especially the Shenandoah Valley region. I consider the area to be in northern Virginia, but many say it's western. A compromise would be to say it's in northwestern Virginia I suppose. ;) :)

Also, if you have never driven along Skyline drive or the Blue Ridge Parkway, I highly recommend doing so. Stunning is really only describing it mildly.

anyways....back to Cityscape...

[ljbuild]

^ I second that notion.

Phoenix's real estate market is now absurd. Median prices are down to $102,000 here, according to city-data.com. This city is frakked. I certainly will never buy a home in this state ever again...especially with cnn and money magazine both predicting additional 23% drops in our real estate prices. That would put us back to 1980s prices.

--don

Thats good news for FIRST TIME HOME BUYERS. :tup: :tup:

In other-wards, those of you even thinking about buying a home for the first

time, NOW the time to do so. Now you can buy that 3 bed/ 2 bath home for

$100k instead of $400k.:)

[Don B.]

^ I think you missed my comment in the quote you cited about the "additional drop" that is forecast here for 2010. "...especially with cnn and money magazine both predicting additional 23% drops in our real estate prices."

This is the reverse of a bubble...the state of absurdia.

And of course, you now have millions of people with fried credit. They aren't going to be buying homes anytime soon. Even people with good credit may have some issues with buying homes as well.

--don

[RTD]

^ I think you missed my comment in the quote you cited about the "additional drop" that is forecast here for 2010. "...especially with cnn and money magazine both predicting additional 23% drops in our real estate prices."

This is the reverse of a bubble...the state of absurdia.

And of course, you now have millions of people with fried credit. They aren't going to be buying homes anytime soon. Even people with good credit may have some issues with buying homes as well.

--don

Perhaps the locals may not have much buying power, but what about those out of state, or out of country? My guess is that the state of Phoenix's housing market will cause a huge upswing in foreigners buying homes left right and centre for winter retreats or retirement properties. I would think this is an important niche that Phoenix should take advantage of given Arizona's current economic state for the time being.

[Don B.]

^ Probably not going to happen, given almost everyone has been affected by the events of the past couple of years. For example:

* Unless the people are paying cash, getting financing for a second home or vacation home is nearly impossible. I read an article in the Wall Street Journal recently that detailed some of these issues. The lack of financing is killing the second home and vacation home industries right now.

* Middle-class Americans have been hammered hard by this crisis. If you have a 401k, investments in general or stocks, you have lost money, and possibly a lot of it. This is going to have a chilling effect on you spending more money, or just moving in general.

* Rich people are having issues too, especially with getting financing. I saw an article recently that talked about how even wealthy people with high FICO scores are having troubles getting mortages on both primary and secondary homes, especially if a lot of their wealth is tied up in securities or stocks that aren't fungible. Down payments are much higher as well.

* People in other cities have also suffered (just likely not to the extent that Phoenix has), and this will make it hard to move here. People who own homes will not be able to sell them where they are moving from.

* This is a global financial problem. Dubai's woes, for example, are well-documented in the national and international media.

* Foreigners are going to be reluctant to invest money in Arizona so long as they think we haven't reached the bottom AND the state and local governments haven't solved their budget woes.

--don

[dtnphx]

:shrug: Don, the world is in the shitter...no news flash there. But Jesus, man, get over your specific, dire predictions as to our total destruction. We all know you've had a rough couple of years, but hey, you just got a job. Doesn't that mean someone out there was optimistic and is hiring? If they had talked to you, you would offered to slit their wrists than offer a job. You're in danger of becoming a crotchity old dude before your time.

[Buckeye Native 001]

No he's pretty much right. If you're in the middle class, you're fucked.

And you know what? There's not a goddamn thing any of us can/will do to stop it. Get what you can while the going's still good and fuck everyone else.

[KevinFromTexas]

Let's stay on topic folks.

[Leo the Dog]

Perhaps the locals may not have much buying power, but what about those out of state, or out of country? My guess is that the state of Phoenix's housing market will cause a huge upswing in foreigners buying homes left right and centre for winter retreats or retirement properties. I would think this is an important niche that Phoenix should take advantage of given Arizona's current economic state for the time being.

Just imagine the migrants (both domestic/international) PHX will now attract. We already tend to attract the lower income, lower educated, lower skilled persons to this great state because of the low cost of living, and the low-wage jobs.

Remember the stories of how people were "fleeing" Southern Cal to become first time homeowners in AZ. They would spend a lifetime renting in CA, but here in AZ they could live like kings. And this was in the BOOM times, just imagine the people that'll come here to buy a 80-100k house and the problems that'll arise here.

[somethingfast]

Gov't Job? BTW, Northern VA is a beautiful region. :tup:

no private sector but consulting with gov't...i guess that's true of everyone around the beltway lol.

TAZ, agreed, skyline drive in the fall is amazing...

[kevininlb]

reading the past several posts reminds me why i stopped coming to this site.

came back to find info on some bldgs - found the same ol' bitching.

yawn, later.

[Don B.]

^ And your post helps further this agenda exactly how?

There's really no new news at this point. You can bet that as soon as the slightest tidbit of information becomes available, our eagled-eyed cadre of hawks will swoop down on it like a gaggle of vultures on a slab of meat. We have people that monitor everything: the newspaper, various websites, the City of Phoenix Building and Zoning offices, the Phoenix Business Journal, and so forth.

If it isn't posted here, it's not happening. :)

--don

[Vicelord John]

reading the past several posts reminds me why i stopped coming to this site.

came back to find info on some bldgs - found the same ol' bitching.

yawn, later.

if there isn't anything new to talk about...........

What do you expect that people who have known each other on this site for years to never have idle conversation?

[combusean]

John, we have warned you about talking out of turn. Your above post lacked Meritous Content according to the Guide to Proper Posting, 4th edition page 974.

*rolls eyes*

[Vicelord John]

John, we have warned you about talking out of turn. Your above post lacked Meritous Content according to the Guide to Proper Posting, 4th edition page 974.

*rolls eyes*

please refer to my signature.

[Edifice]

Let's stay on topic folks.

The topic is dead, Kevin. It's this "economy" thingy. Let's just ease up on the usual moderating stuff so that people stick around the site until things improve.

[combusean]

This is why you will almost never hear me complaining about posts being off topic unless they're blatantly in the wrong thread.

please refer to my signature.

Could you not tell I was being facetious? =P

[Vicelord John]

Could you not tell i was? ;)

[Don B.]

I do think, in light of the failed promises and vision of Cityscape, the thread should be renamed Shittyscape or Nutscrape. We were promised four skyscraper towers, including a new tallest (the holy grail of skyscraper forumers worldwide), but we will end up with one rather ordinary office building of 27 stories (*snooze*) and a stumpy hotel block, with a couple of Arizona Center-type two-story retail buildings along side of it. Utterly pathetic.

Part of the issue is I think they dicked around too long back in 2005 when this project was first proposed. Think of it this way...Cityscape in Phoenix was first proposed only six months after City Center in Las Vegas was proposed. Within one year, City Center was under construction. Cityscape didn't get underway until almost two and a half years later. By then, Phoenix's housing market was entering a tailspin and the economy was sputtering -- too little, too late.

--don

[somethingfast]

hey, 27 stories in phoenix is nothing to sneeze at. everywhere else except maybe tucson, sure. but around arizona, 27 stories a supertall :haha:

[combusean]

CityScape was not proposed in 2005. The official plans didn't come out until October 2006 and the RFP may have preceded that by a few months. That's a lifetime in the length of the boom, especially considering it started in California in 2004, moved west, and had thoroughly fizzled out by the time this tower had broken ground. Two months after the start of the mortgage meltdown they had a fence around Block 22 finally.

The money simply dried up by the time it got here. Every block had a proposal when there was easy money but none of them had any lead time to actually get financed.

[Leo the Dog]

with a couple of Arizona Center-type two-story retail buildings along side of it. Utterly pathetic.

Don, sometimes your posts make too much sense. The more I start to think of things, the more frustrated I become with the city of phx. How exactly is the AZ Center ever going to recover and gain tenants when Phx approves yet another area for retail and shopping. The city should focus on ONE major shopping destination. Preferably along a street (1st for example) Every new building constructed in DT includes ground floor retail which is scattered about with nothing across the street from it, why would we ever expect people to visit these locations? Yet, here we go again, and think that CityScape is going to be successful. If by chance it is, this is bad news for AZ Center.

A perfect example: Boston's Tremont St., which fronts Boston Common has struggled for decades with retail along the ground floor. It was concluded that because of the park across the street it would never attract the masses of people needed to support these businesses along one side of the street. You need both sides to have shops and cafes. When will PHX grow a brain?! It is so simple, yet rocket science to PHX.

[plinko]

^Yes, but such a shopping street would have to develop organically. Unfortunately zoning, financing, and any other number of factors will dictate that it has to be done in some sort of mega-project.

Based on built conditions, you're much more likely to see a double sided retail street develop along say...Roosevelt than you would be on Van Buren or 1st Avenue. And because of built densities and disparate parts, such a thing would likely take 10-15 years to really develop into anything.

[HX_Guy]

I think Jefferson has the best chance of developing into somewhat of a "downtown shopping street" with the Luhrs buildings on the south and the Cityscape project on the north. Over time, the lot just west of US Airways could get something with ground floor retail as could the Block 23 (between Colliers and Cityscape) could do the same.

We would end up with retial/restaurants from 1st Ave (CVS) all the way to 2nd St (Hard Rock Cafe). I know it's not a lot...but it's a lot more than anything we have now in the way of a linear shopping street in downtown.

[Vicelord John]

even if a street does become lined with stores, it will never feel like a city environment because there is no on street parking on most city streets.

[TAZ4ate0]

even if a street does become lined with stores, it will never feel like a city environment because there is no on street parking on most city streets.

Yeesh! :rolleyes: It's simple. Just change the ordinance to permit curbside parking. Install some parking meters for income...and viola! :)

[Vicelord John]

really? it's simple? So a street like Jefferson for example which is three lanes wide is going to "simply" eat a lane to use as parking? Quite honestly, the streets are not wide enough in most cases to do on street parking. Look at Van Buren!

[glynnjamin]

Can't you park on Jefferson around the Capital after like 6pm or something? I mean, you would just have to do like we do with Grand Ave. Make it no parking during the busy hours and then allow parking during the rest of the evening. Seems like it could work to me. Of course, I'd never do it on Jefferson - that's just dumb. But maybe the west side of Van Buren between Central & 7th Aves if these imaginary stores ever get built.

[Vicelord John]

I have a 2,000 piece Knex set, I think I'm going to build a mock up of Cityscape with it.

[Don B.]

^ That sounds like fun. Never heard of Knex until your post.

So you have two of these?

--don

[Vicelord John]

two of them?

[Don B.]

^ Damn...forgot the link. :)

http://www.knex.com/Multi-Model-Sets/product.php?pc=15001

--don

[Vicelord John]

No, I have this, not my link.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.graysage.com/cg/Toys/KNex/Coaster/001218-002.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.graysage.com/cg/Toys/KNex/Coaster/index.html&usg=__EVT95kkuzVKJGypMIUaZ4UVeLgg=&h=480&w=640&sz=92&hl=en&start=21&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=q9KvjhHdaUN9wM:&tbnh=103&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dknex%2Broller%2Bcoaster%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox%26sa%3DN%26start%3D20%26um%3D1

[HX_Guy]

even if a street does become lined with stores, it will never feel like a city environment because there is no on street parking on most city streets.

Most city streets? Downtown? Actually a lot of them do have street parking, including Washington and 2nd St, which would right in this shopping "corridor".

Also, I've been to a number of cities that had great shopping streets and didn't have street parking. I don't think it's that big of a piece to having a city environment feel. The biggest things needed are large storefronts with lots of windows and up to the sidewalk plus no "backsides" or large linear areas of no storefronts.