Canadian Retail Thread

[ue]

This will probably go nowhere fast, but what the hell...

Mike, I get what you're saying but I don't think the situation is as dire as you make it out to be.

Cities as large as Toronto are simply cannot function efficiently if everything is located in one area (the downtown core or elsewhere in the region). It just congests everything and Downtown Toronto is already seeing that, which is why the GTA is starting to develop more secondary nodes for employment. Not everyone wants to live in Downtown Toronto and they shouldn't have to suffer the consequences with a hellish commute. Some people like North York and shouldn't have to deal with a lack of amenities because some holier-than-thou wants everything downtown - end of story.

Downtown Toronto can still be the key destination, and I think it still is overall, but it is unrealistic to have it remain the only important commercial node in the GTA. Even New York doesn't have everything located in Manhattan nor Chicago in the Loop nor London in the City or Westminster. Downtown will likely remain the key destination because it has the cool chain stores that Yorkdale and Sherway Gardens and Square One may also have, but it also has the bulk of the cool non-chains in places like Trinity-Bellwoods, the Mirvish Village, Cabbagetown, Greektown, and the Beaches. People go to Toronto for the urban experience downtown, not for more suburbia.

Keep in mind, in spite of Nordstrom opening in Square One or Holt Renfrew opening in Sherway Gardens, Downtown Toronto has never been so alive and is still currently where so many want to be, hence the enormous construction boom. There is more to Downtown Toronto than upscale chain clothing stores.

How has Downtown Calgary lost out to Chinook? The Core is a marvelous downtown mall, far nicer than the Eaton Centre or Rideau Centre. Chinook still gets the international chains first (except for big box stores), but this is nothing new in Western Canada. Downtown Calgary hasn't been the primary retail destination in the city since probably the '60s. Likewise for Edmonton and Winnipeg. It's just how things are here. Malls are lucrative and our downtown malls were never as successful as the big Ontarian ones (except for the Core, and only since the recent reno).

I highly doubt many successful chains would've stuck to Downtown Toronto or Ottawa without those malls, as it was what was de rigueur in 1973. Only over the past 15 or so years have chains started opening again on streetfronts in urban locations. Toronto had a huge helping hand due to a larger critical mass of people compared to Calgary, as well as a successful downtown mall that could easily spill out onto the street. The retail cores of the Prairie cities have undergone great transformations over the past decade, but they aren't riddled with chains like Yonge St or St Catherine Street, for the most part. I'm fine with that, as well as the fact that our downtowns will likely never be the main retail destination of our cities. We're competing with the West Edmonton Malls of the world, after all. Jasper Ave in Downtown Edmonton may have a Lululemon, American Apparel, Le Chateau, and Forever 21 in a decade, but West Ed and Southgate will still be the key retail destinations, in addition to Whyte Ave (for an urban environment) and South Common (for the big boxes).

[MustangJay]

I wouldn't call bedazzled jeans fashion forward, and they seem to be very popular with the men of Montreal.

Montreal may have more "fashionable" residents but in terms of income and taxes, their isn't a huge propensity for spending on luxury. For a city as big as Montreal, their offerings of upscale store is pitiful compared to other similar-sized or smaller cities. For example, Toronto has free standing stores for Chanel, Hermes, Dolce & Gabana, Gucci, Prada, Escada, Porsche Design, Tiffany's (x3), Mulberry (x2), Cartier (x2), Hugo Boss (x2), Louis Vuitton (x2), and Burberry (x2). Vancouver also has many of these same stores which Montreal doesn't have. Toronto and Vancouver are also on the short list for Nordstrom's which has completely bypassed Quebec, although Saks may wind up opening somewhere there. Without belabouring the disaster that was Les Ailes de la Mode, suffice it to say that affordable fashion retailers like Simons tend to do better in Quebec.

[Acajack]

Montreal may have more "fashionable" residents but in terms of income and taxes, their isn't a huge propensity for spending on luxury. For a city as big as Montreal, their offerings of upscale store is pitiful compared to other similar-sized or smaller cities. For example, Toronto has free standing stores for Chanel, Hermes, Dolce & Gabana, Gucci, Prada, Escada, Porsche Design, Tiffany's (x3), Mulberry (x2), Cartier (x2), Hugo Boss (x2), Louis Vuitton (x2), and Burberry (x2). Vancouver also has many of these same stores which Montreal doesn't have. Toronto and Vancouver are also on the short list for Nordstrom's which has completely bypassed Quebec, although Saks may wind up opening somewhere there. Without belabouring the disaster that was Les Ailes de la Mode, suffice it to say that affordable fashion retailers like Simons tend to do better in Quebec.

I sort of addressed this point hee:

Your post about Simons in-house brands reminded me of how people in Quebec are not as big on brand names as people in the rest of Canada or the States. People in Quebec are much more about what a garment looks like than whether it is brand X, Y or Z.

In many cases this does lead them to buy cheap stuff that doesn't last long but they don't seem to care.

Whether or not this is because of necessity or simply making different choices or having different priorities, is a whole other discussion.

People in Quebec also tend to buy smaller cars, and even suburban houses here tend to be smaller on average as well.

My observation seems to be that people in Quebec have a larger ''experiential'' angle (as opposed to ''material'' bent) in their spending habits when compared to other Canadians.

[miketoronto]

I don't adhere to the false dichotomy that you seem to be proposing. Anyone that has familiarity with my postings knows full well that I am not at all in favor of endless sprawl. But neither am I in favor of draconian legislation severely constraining retail to the core, which I believe would be counterproductive. Let's not forget that it wasn't zoning that built the great city centres of yesteryear; it was market forces. Strangely, you seem to be opposed to the explosion of condominiums in the core of Toronto, which would seem to be the catalyst for retail expansion downtown.

I did not propose draconian legislation. I have never said we can't have retail outside downtown.
What I have said is that we have to watch how much expansion we have, and they yes downtown should still be the focus for destination retail.

Part of the reason our cities have healthy downtown retail is because we took steps in the past to ensure we were kept retail healthy while also allowing some suburban expansion.
Ottawa for example had strict suburban mall expansion legislation in place. This is why Rideau Centre became the main mall for the region.

Legislation aside. All I am stating is that we are seeing an over expansion of high end stores, that in most cities do not have more than one location. And if Canada does not watch out, we are going to face issues that US cities have with an over supply of retail that just can't be supported.
Talk all you want, but I am in the USA right now for work, and I am seeing first hand what over building retail has done to both downtowns and suburban malls.
I just drove by a mall that was as large or larger than Yorkdale when it was built, and just as much the place to be. Today it is totally vacant and growing weeds from the roof.
Why? Because retail was allowed to be expanded way beyond what the region could support.

So it is all fine and good to have retail growth in our cities. But let's not become complacent here.

Also when it comes to high end stores, European cities do not have tons of branches for the most part. In London the big fancy department stores like Holt Renfrew only have on location and that is the city centre. Same goes for Paris and other cities like Rome, Milan, etc.

Seriously, why would a truly high end store open in Square One. As far as I am concerned that will just damage Holt Renfrew's brand as being exclusive.

This is also the first retail expansion where downtown Toronto has been left out of so many of the new openings. Instead them all going to Yorkdale.
This is not good news for the downtown retail core, no matter what you guys try to say.

Our regions are going to have to make a decision if we are going to continue to keep our legacy of having vibrant city centers, or if we are going to let uncontrolled suburban expansion eat away at our cores. We were so good at keeping vibrant downtowns through the first suburban wave. It would be sad to see our cities lose out now.

I would also like to add that the continued suburbanization of our retail just makes our retail offerings mediocre. It was such a pleasure when I was in Europe, walking into grand stores that really know how to put on a show. But why are these stores so nice? Because for the most part they only have one location in each city, usually in the city centre. These stores are huge, have selections we could only dream of in North America, and they put care into making the shopping experience great.
But in North America we are happy with crappy little suburban branch stores which try to fit everything on offer in the size of one department in a grand store you will see in Europe, or in the few grand stores we have left in some Canadian and American downtowns.

[someone123]

I think a lot of luxury fashion goods have more to do with conspicuous consumption than they do with fashion as such. In a similar vein, there are great restaurants with dishes at just about any price and then there are places that exist so you can show your friends that you're willing to spend money on piles of caviar and foie gras or whatever. I suppose that going to these places indicates that you're at least more conscious of your food choices than if you went to McDonald's, but they aren't necessarily a sign of sophistication.

[eternallyme]

I'm expecting a lot of dead malls in the next few years in Canada anyway. Most would be the lower-level regional malls after Sears departs for good with no obvious anchor to take its place. In smaller to mid-sized cities, they would either have to downsize to community malls or would be left without an indoor mall at all.

One possibility there is that, if higher-end retail wants to get into smaller cities, they would be downtown by default, since there would be no mall to locate into.

[SpongeG]

i don't know if i read it here or somewhere else but apparently hermes does very well in canada, second only to their best market which is germany

[miketoronto]

As you can see, my comments about the malls and downtown are not weird like some of you think, and in fact industry professionals have the same views.

From
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/industry-news/property-report/tenant-shakeup-makes-bloor-street-more-lux/article15721512/#dashboard/follows/
---------
Despite all this activity, there was a time not so long ago when Mr. Vorst might have wondered whether he did the right thing when he bought the building on Bloor.

unlike European markets, Toronto’s high street has at times faced some stiff competition from shopping malls when it comes to attracting tenants.

After the financial crisis struck in 2008, a number of American and European retailers looked to Canada, which was relatively unscathed, as a safe haven to open locations and grow revenues.

“Bloor Street was an obvious one for large retailers, but when you had the announcement of Yorkdale Shopping Centre adding 140,000 square feet, retailers who had the opportunity of doing Bloor Street or Yorkdale elected to do Yorkdale,” says Mr. Crombie, listing off names like Ferragamo, Ted Baker and AllSaints. “So there was a bit of a pause for Bloor Street for that 2011 and 2012 period.”

This spring Yorkdale announced that it will be expanding again, by a further 298,000 square feet including a 188,000-square-foot Nordstrom store. But construction of that new space doesn’t begin until next year, and the retailers won’t be opening shop until late 2016.

“This is a chance for Bloor Street to take advantage of that,” Mr. Crombie says.

“We believe in downtown retail,” he says. “Long, long, long term, high-street retail will always be there.”
------------

[miketoronto]

Just a fun little view to show how we overbuild our retail in North America.

The following is just a few high end store names, and their locations in Toronto and Milan.


Louis Vuitton

Milan
City center locations only

Toronto
City centre and suburban mall locations


High End Department Store

Milan
City centre location. Only location in the entire metropolitan area.

Toronto
Downtown flagship, plus two suburban mall branches, and a third on the way.

Cartier

Milan
City centre locations only

Toronto
City centre and suburban mall locations.

Salvatore Ferrgamo

Milan
City centre locations only

Toronto
Suburban mall location only

Gucci

Milan
City centre locations only

Toronto
City centre and suburban mall locations

[Gerrard]

Mike all those suburban Toronto locations of high end retail are shops within department stores or just various locations to obtain the product not actual freestanding retail locations for the brands -which in Toronto are all located downtown with the exception of Holt Renfrew.

Not to mention the employment opportunities they generate outside the core... and the fact that Milan is several times smaller than Toronto. Also North American suburbs tend to be wealthier and thus follow a different retail model.

[miketoronto]

Mike all those suburban Toronto locations of high end retail are shops within department stores or just various locations to obtain the product not actual freestanding retail locations for the brands -which in Toronto are all located downtown with the exception of Holt Renfrew.

Not to mention the employment opportunities they generate outside the core... and the fact that Milan is several times smaller than Toronto. Also North American suburbs tend to be wealthier and thus follow a different retail model.

The locations are freestanding stores located in Yorkdale. Greater Milano has over 4 million people, and in almost any European city you will not find high end stores located outside the central shopping areas. London is huge and the high end stores for the most part do not have branches in the suburbs.

[Gerrard]

The locations are freestanding stores located in Yorkdale. Greater Milano has over 4 million people, and in almost any European city you will not find high end stores located outside the central shopping areas. London is huge and the high end stores for the most part do not have branches in the suburbs.

They are all inside Holt Renfrew as leased departments at Yorkdale. And again, suburban development in North America is different than Europe. European suburbs tend to be less wealthy, either lower or middle class. Not bastions of wealth. Why even compare European urban development to North American urban development when you know they are completely different?

And again, they are there because the population supports them. They generate employment. Why be a fascist about supportable and organic development. Do all suburbanites have to shop at Wal-Mart?

[miketoronto]

They are all inside Holt Renfrew as leased departments at Yorkdale. And again, suburban development in North America is different than Europe. European suburbs tend to be less wealthy, either lower or middle class. Not bastions of wealth. Why even compare European urban development to North American urban development when you know they are completely different?

And again, they are there because the population supports them. They generate employment. Why be a fascist about supportable and organic development. Do all suburbanites have to shop at Wal-Mart?

All European suburbs are not as poor as you are making them sound.

The post was more to show how we are likely overbuilding high end retail in Toronto. Why do we need four Holt Renfrew stores mere minutes from each other? If it is truly an exclusive store then it should have one good impressive and large store, like you see in European cities. Instead of multiple small suburban branch stores with crappy selections.

We seriously have to stop celebrating this mediocre expansion of retail in Canada. Taking Holt Renfrew as an example again. Instead of them building all these small branch stores with poor selection. They should be putting the focus into building a true flagship on Bloor Street. And I mean a real flagship. Lets see a ladies store with a separate mens store across the street. Lets see that mens store have 6 floors of mens clothing. Lets see floors of restaurants, etc :). That would put us up there with Printemps in Paris. That is the kind of retail expansion we should see. Not the crap we get.
The continued spreading out of retail in North America just totally diminishes the selection of retail we have. We just don't get the selection anymore that European cities have, because we keep diluting the retail cores in North America.

I took this photo on my European trip.

The Printemps ladies store you can see in the distance. The building to the right under construction tarps is the men's store.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5493/10812564764_a10e2c8d27_c.jpg

[ue]

Mike, did you read my post on the last page? It sort of addresses this and I really don't think that the situation is as dire as you're making it out to be. Toronto is a big city; it is simply unrealistic for everything to be downtown and only downtown. For out-of-towners, Downtown is still the destination because it has most things in a short distance, including unique independents, as well as offering a different environment that you won't get in Kitchener or Thunder Bay or Fergus. People from outside Ontario still to this day do not visit Toronto just to see Mississauga or Brampton or even North York; they come for the Downtown Toronto experience. I don't see that changing in the foreseeable future. In fact, I only see it getting better as the core of Toronto has never been busier and keeps getting busier with each new condo or infill or office or loft.

Also as Gerrard mentions, Europe and North America have different retail models. That doesn't stop cities like New York, Boston, Montreal, Toronto, Chicago, and San Francisco from having strong retail cores, but it also doesn't negate other strong retail corridors. Even in Europe, IKEA is in the 'burbs.

You have to realize that not everybody wants to have to trudge all the way downtown for high end (or whatever) goods. If you live in Newmarket, I'm sure a Holts in Yorkdale comes in handy for those times you don't want to or can't go all the way to downtown Toronto. And that's fine. North America is a culture of convenience, through and through. Wishing otherwise will just leave you disappointed. The European model isn't the only viable model. Neiman Marcus has suburban stores and its brand isn't cheapened any more than Holt Renfrew is with locations in the god-forsaken 905.

[MolsonExport]

Mike goes to Europe and has an epiphany about retail, while neglecting to consider the historical reasons for the differences in the development of the core. I have been to Europe many, many times, and I think if Mike were to venture out into the suburbs of many European cities, he would find that they have quite a few similarities with North American cities, because--yup, you guessed it--these were developed at a similar time with the automobile in mind. I am not saying this is an ideal situation (far from it; very few would prefer the urban fabric of downtown Jacksonville to Vienna), but like it or not, it is the product of market forces. If the luxury brand retailers like Louis Vuitton, etc. (out of the reach of most regular folk) choose to have a single location in a central European city, it is only because they have deemed this to be the best option. The same chain makes a different decision in North America, because the market dynamics demand a modified marketing strategy to reflect the flow of dollars and people. You can't legislate this away.

[eemy]

The Salvatore Ferragamo, John Varvatos and Burberry stores in Yorkdale are free-standing and completely separate from Holt Renfrew (ie. not a store in store) off the top of my head.

That said, these are businesses and I'm sure they did plenty of market research before expanding outside the core. I do have to wonder at Holt Renfrew's expansion plans though; they seem awfully aggressive.

[SpongeG]

without the suburban stores the flagships would be hurting

[eternallyme]

Also, in many cities, downtown is not even viable due to high crime and low demand in the area. Downtown malls have failed in several cities despite extensive efforts to develop such, such as Winnipeg and London to name two.

[YOWflier]

Montreal may have more "fashionable" residents but in terms of income and taxes, their isn't a huge propensity for spending on luxury.During my time in Montreal I've seen nothing to substantiate the claim often heard/read that its residents are more "fashionable" than any other major city.

Unless, by "fashionable" people are referring to the dude in my office who wears a scarf, indoors, all day.

[miketoronto]

Also, in many cities, downtown is not even viable due to high crime and low demand in the area. Downtown malls have failed in several cities despite extensive efforts to develop such, such as Winnipeg and London to name two.

Those two downtowns only failed because the cities did not control unneeded suburban retail expansion.
London actually now has legislation mandating all major office development be downtown. Do you guys consider that bad to?

Winnipeg has a super regional mall only a 5 minute drive from the heart of downtown. Why was that mall required? Clearly it was not filling a retail void but rather just taking business from downtown.
In fact, all major malls in Winnipeg are only about a 10 minute drive from downtown.
Same goes for London.
Plain and simple, these two cities just do not have the populations that even require any sort of major out of downtown shopping areas.

That is why Ottawa also had bans on massive suburban retail expansion for a period. Because the population just could not support that much retail without just eating business away from already established malls and downtown.

Canadian cities made great strides in retaining vibrant downtowns in many cities, and also reducing the amount if any of the dead malls that you see in many other suburban areas in the USA.
But if keep acting all smug and think uncontrolled massive retail expansion is all of a sudden good, without any real plan to see how this effects our already established areas. Then we could be in for some tough planning times with having to deal with dead malls and weak downtown cores.

It is great Canada is doing so well. But no matter what you guys say, Holt Renfrew and other stores are just not stores people go to everyday. And I think we are setting ourselves up for some over building in the high end retail market. The Holt Renfrew expansion at Square One just screams too much expansion.

It should also be noted that Saks has closed some stores in the USA, because they had too many stores in one metropolitan area for such a high end store. That is one reason SF only has one Saks, the main one downtown.
Louis Vuitton is also facing some issues with exclusive brand status. Because they have so many stores in some cities, they are starting to not be seen as high-end anymore, and just becoming common. This actually is a big issue in China, where the residents there are not as into Louis Vuitton anymore, and Louis Vuitton is slowing their expansion of new stores partly due to this.

[MolsonExport]

The Holt Renfrew expansion at Square One just screams too much expansion.

How would you propose to ban the Holt Renfrew expansion at Square One on the basis of being too much expansion?

Without economies of scale (by expansion) many incumbent local retail chains could (have already) been undercut by foreign rivals.

Have you been to China? I was in Shanghai recently, and almost all the major luxury brands had numerous locations throughout the core (which extends for tens of kilometers in every cardinal direction).

Anyhow, why focus only on luxury brands? Don't mom & pop and standalone stores targeting the less affluent also merit consideration? Should restaurants be similarly constrained to the core? Even if rents become exorbitant?

Are you worried more about the reputation of these high-end retailers, or the effects on the urban fabric? Some of your arguments seem to be more regarding the former.

[ue]

lol, Mike, I had look up Saks in San Francisco because I knew that couldn't be right. Yes, SF only has one Saks, but SF proper has a land area smaller than Old Toronto. The Bay Area still has 6 Saks Fifth Avenue locations - San Francisco, Livermore, Petaluma, Milpitas, Gilroy, and Folsom. How is that any different from Holts deciding to have Old Toronto, North York, and Mississauga locations?

[miketoronto]

lol, Mike, I had look up Saks in San Francisco because I knew that couldn't be right. Yes, SF only has one Saks, but SF proper has a land area smaller than Old Toronto. The Bay Area still has 6 Saks Fifth Avenue locations - San Francisco, Livermore, Petaluma, Milpitas, Gilroy, and Folsom. How is that any different from Holts deciding to have Old Toronto, North York, and Mississauga locations?

The other locations you mention are discount warehouse locations. They only have one actual Saks, and its the one in downtown SF.
I actually found out about that, because it was written up in a retail magazine about Saks deciding to limit the number of the stores they have in each city, and SF was used as one of the examples.

[miketoronto]

How would you propose to ban the Holt Renfrew expansion at Square One on the basis of being too much expansion?

Are you worried more about the reputation of these high-end retailers, or the effects on the urban fabric? Some of your arguments seem to be more regarding the former.

We can't ban it. But I think Holt Renfrew is getting too aggressive with their expansion and it could backfire. Seriously, there is a Holt Renfrew downtown. You drive not even 15 minutes west, and you have Sherway Gardens. You drive not even 15 minutes west and you will have Square One. And lets not forget Yorkdale which is also only 20 minutes from the downtown store, and only 20 minutes from Sherway or Square One.
In fact retail leasing info for Sherway actually mentions how they are only 30 minutes drive from most residents in the GTA, or over 4 million residents.

For a store that is supposedly high end and exclusive, that seems excessive, and I can't see the market actually supporting that many locations in a small area, without it just eating sales that would otherwise have gone to downtown or Sherway. Which is what will happen.

I take into account the fact of the stores reputation as well as the urban development, because the two are linked in some ways.

I know my retail. And I also remember when Holt Renfrew was something special that you went into on a trip down to Bloor Street, and it was something unique.
Or if you got something from Holt Renfrew it was special.

All this expansion will make Holt Renfrew just another household name, and will just become common place and therefore lose its cache.
And this could have effects on the urban development, because it could reduce the specialness of Bloor Street as a unique retail destination.

You can trumpet mediocre retail expansion. But great cities are built on great things including retail. And Holt Renfrew and other stores have a lot of work to do downtown before they should be even looking at expanding. Holt Renfrew's flagship on Bloor is so small by world standards it is not even funny.

[Mamiamato24]

Omg Tim Hortons has flower doughnuts!!!

[MolsonExport]

^those flower donuts should only be sold at the downtown flagship Tim Whoreton's.

[SpongeG]

lol

[Mamiamato24]

OMG with the green sprinkles...

revolutionary!

[Mr.Wolf]

Most brands have lost any cachet they had in recent years.

When you see some nouveau rich teenage girls hanging around with their Louis Vuitting handbag in a suburban mall, that doesn't scream "sophistication" but that's where most brands are making their profits nowadays.

If people living in McMansions want to splash on some designer gear, the Europeans will go in the suburbs because they don't look down on them anymore.

[MolsonExport]

I went to Canadian Tire yesterday (for the rare occasion...I really don't like the place), and spent about $50 (Cash). I got 10 cents in Canadian Tire Money back. That is really a very shitty loyalty program. When I was a kid, I can remember my dad getting 4-5% back in $CT for cash purposes. They really "give like Scrooge"

sure enough, they have lowered the reward rate:
Canadian Tire Money is given out for purchases paid for by cash or debit, based on the pre-tax total, excluding labour and shop supplies costs. The coupon rate earned was initially 5% of the eligible purchase price but was subsequently lowered to 3%, then to 1.4%, and now is 0.4%

By this calculation, I should have got $.20CT.

http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mlfAD7bOkae5IiKzbrVBwNQ.jpg

[harls]

CT money is so depressing. Especially when you save up a wad thinking you're going to get a great discount at the till, and it comes to 80 cents or something.

I Iove handing over my Canadian tire money in a crumpled heap, out of sequence, and stained with food.

[vid]

I like to save it all up until I have a couple bucks, and then use it to pay for a bottle of pop, purposefully keeping a couple bills in my wallet to delay the transaction. Then, when leaving Canadian Tire (because ours does backpack searches every time), I make sure I have stuff from other stores in my bag so I can slow the store down even more by forcing them to inspect every compartment of my backpack (11 in total) and dig around for receipts for it all.

I did that last time I rode Greyhound; they gave up after I told them to thoroughly inspect the rain cover (compartment 7) and practically pushed me onto the bus. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to ride Greyhound anymore.

[Nouvellecosse]

Backpack searches every time?? Wow, I refuse to shop at a store that harasses it's shoppers. Especially if they do it selectively by picking on young male shoppers and letting everyone else float on by. There's a store here including a CT that would tell me to leave my backup at the service desk when entering. I tell them that I don't do that, and then if they make a fuss, I leave.

That CT hasn't done that for a several months now, probably because of shopper backlash.

[SignalHillHiker]

Forever Flawless has a kiosk set up in the Avalon mall, the woman there said that they are opening a location in the mall. According to their website the only other stores in Canada are in Vancouver, Edmonton and Victoria.

http://www.foreverflawless.com/v/vspfiles/locations.asp

Woot woot!

[J.OT13]

I heard this a while back from someone; apparently if you get mugged abroad, you can give them your Canadian Tire money and they won't know the difference. I'm sure it's not 100% full proof, but it's worth a shot.

[kwoldtimer]

I heard this a while back from someone; apparently if you get mugged abroad, you can give them your Canadian Tire money and they won't know the difference. I'm sure it's not 100% full proof, but it's worth a shot.

So to speak! Try that is some parts of the world and it could quite literally be "worth a shot".

[Policy Wonk]

I save my Canadian Tire money for when I inexplicably get fundraising solicitations from the Conservative Party. I have done it at least half a dozen times but I'm still on their mailing list.

[casper]

I save my Canadian Tire money for when I inexplicably get fundraising solicitations from the Conservative Party. I have done it at least half a dozen times but I'm still on their mailing list.

Perhaps the lawyers they use to handle the senators take CT money :D

[caltrane74]

Well folks it's official. Nordstorm is moving into the Eaton Centre along with a $240 million dollar renovation of the mall to reconfigure the space once occupied by Sears Canada. Brand new US retailers are being sought at this moment to fill the space along with Nordstrom, which will occupy 3 of the 7 former sears floors (Sears to retain top 4 floors) and the mall will be renovated!!! yay

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Y5CZOW8CCTc/UtdVQAvJKsI/AAAAAAAAHLM/jeGlODLqt0Y/s1600/nordstrom+toronto+eaton+centre+retail+insider.png

From the Retail Insider (http://www.retail-insider.com/2014/01/breaking-nordstrom-to-replace-sears-at.html)

As many of us expected, Nordstrom has announced that it will replace Sears at the Toronto Eaton Centre. It will open a 213,000 square foot, three-level store. Construction begins in March and the store is scheduled to open in the fall of 2016, around the same time as its Yorkdale Shopping Centre location.

Although Sears will vacate the Toronto Eaton Centre space next month, it will continue to occupy approximately 460,000 square feet of office space over four floors above Nordstrom for Sears Canada's headquarters. The office space was formerly retail space.

In total, the Toronto Eaton Centre Sears is about 816,000 square feet. Besides the square footage to be occupied by Nordstrom and Sears Canada's office space, an additional 140,000 square feet of retail space will become available for other retailers. Tenant(s) are expected to be announced in the near future.

Despite the fact that it will be the company's Canadian flagship, the Toronto Eaton Centre Nordstrom will be its second-largest Canadian store location. Its Vancouver store will be larger at almost 230,000 square feet.

http://urbantoronto.ca/sites/default/files/imagecache/display-slideshow/images/articles/2012/01/4538/urbantoronto-4538-13605.jpg

[esquire]

^ It's interesting to see the steady march of luxury retailers into Canada over the past six years or so. It seems that we are going from being a nation of Bay and Sears shoppers to Nordstrom and Saks shoppers. I wonder if Canada really is that much more prosperous than before, or is this just the combination of easy credit and consumerism taken to the next level?

[Acajack]

^ It's interesting to see the steady march of luxury retailers into Canada over the past six years or so. It seems that we are going from being a nation of Bay and Sears shoppers to Nordstrom and Saks shoppers. I wonder if Canada really is that much more prosperous than before, or is this just the combination of easy credit and consumerism taken to the next level?

Or it could be that the US retailers have maxed out or bottomed out in their home market and are looking to Canada as an untapped market that is doing relatively well compared to the States.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ It's interesting to see the steady march of luxury retailers into Canada over the past six years or so. It seems that we are going from being a nation of Bay and Sears shoppers to Nordstrom and Saks shoppers. I wonder if Canada really is that much more prosperous than before, or is this just the combination of easy credit and consumerism taken to the next level?
I know it isn't where Nordstrom probably makes the most of their money, but they have pretty reasonable prices in their online store for pants and shirts. Especially their rather good house brands.

[Gerrard]

I know it isn't where Nordstrom probably makes the most of their money, but they have pretty reasonable prices in their online store for pants and shirts. Especially their rather good house brands.

That's exactly where they make most of their money. Private label/house brands cost little to produce and the mark-ups are huge versus vendor or leased depts. where the mark-up can be as little as 30% for the store.

[esquire]

^ Being a Winnipegger, I'm more of a Nordstrom Rack kind of guy... lots of their private-label stuff available there at very good prices... great value for the money.

[SignalHillHiker]

Despite the fact that it will be the company's Canadian flagship, the Toronto Eaton Centre Nordstrom will be its second-largest Canadian store location. Its Vancouver store will be larger at almost 230,000 square feet.

That line cracks me up somehow.

[losername]

^it is strange that it is called the flagship store at almost half the size of Vancity's.

[caltrane74]

Nordstorm Locations

Toronto - 213,000 sq feet
Vancouver - 230,000 sq feet.

[Martin Mtl]

I'm not sure what the concept of "flagship" stores means exactly. It always seems kind of arbitrary.

[caltrane74]

Maybe it's their showcase store, that will show to the media? or perhaps it's the store with the most foot traffic and sales. In either case, the Eaton Centre location would be premier, outside of Yorkville and Yorkdale perhaps...

[SignalHillHiker]

Vancouver's Rio's Brazilian Steakhouse will be opening its second Canadian location in St. John's. Across the country in one go, :haha:, interestingly unusual.

And, on the other end of the spectrum, Coco Cupcakes has closed shop and is moving their business to Toronto. Sad to lose any business but their location was out in the middle of nowhere and they're far from the best cupcake shop in town.

[esquire]

I'm not sure what the concept of "flagship" stores means exactly. It always seems kind of arbitrary.

It is totally arbitrary. So far as I can tell, the flagship store is the undisputed number one in terms of size, sales, prominence, etc.

For instance, the NYC Saks is massive and is by far their biggest and best store. It's clearly the flagship of the chain. In comparison, Canada's Nordstroms so far look to be quite similar in terms of their size and offerings... I don't honestly know how one could say that any one of them stands out as "the flagship".

[LeftCoaster]

Maybe it's their showcase store, that will show to the media? or perhaps it's the store with the most foot traffic and sales. In either case, the Eaton Centre location would be premier, outside of Yorkville and Yorkdale perhaps...

It's just marketing nonsense, they also call their vancouver store their flagship, it means nothing so they just throw it around in press releases to make the story bigger.

The two stores will certainly be the largest in Canada though, and likely to stay the two largest.

[SpongeG]

flagships should offer all brands and departments whereas non-flagships may not offer them all

nordstroms seattle flagship has chanel instore whereas northgate mall nordstrom doesn't etc.

h&m is a chain where the larger flagships carry all the lines and designer collaboraions vs the suburban or mall stores that may only offer a limited selection. some of the stores don't even carry mens.

[miketoronto]

It is totally arbitrary. So far as I can tell, the flagship store is the undisputed number one in terms of size, sales, prominence, etc.

For instance, the NYC Saks is massive and is by far their biggest and best store. It's clearly the flagship of the chain. In comparison, Canada's Nordstroms so far look to be quite similar in terms of their size and offerings... I don't honestly know how one could say that any one of them stands out as "the flagship".

Nordstroms sadly does not really know how to do grand flagship stores, save for maybe their downtown Seattle store.

The size of the Toronto store is much too small for such a prominent location, and is a disgrace for Canada's busiest retail corner. SEARS should first of all not be using the upper floors of that store for offices, and the entire building should be retail again.
This is the heart of Canada's largest city, and we can for sure support 1,000,000 sq feet of retail space which has been under utilized since EATONS closed.


North American stores just don't know how to do retail anymore. If this was Europe, they would have a grand architectural design, tons of selling space, etc.

And if this was Asia, it would probably be even better. A department store in South Korean just opened not long ago the worlds largest department store, surpassing Macy's in New York.

The big large department store is not dead. North American retailing is dead with no style, passion, or sense of thinking big anymore.

Nordstrom and their peers put way too much energy into building tons of branch stores which are small and have mediocre selections. Instead of focusing on building stores that actually offer you something.
You really notice this when you go to Europe and see the amazing selection in their large stores, which we can only dream of having hear. Save for a few legacy stores in some of our downtowns.

It is concerning to see Canadian downtowns getting retail that is no better than the suburbs. That is no way for downtown to compete and stay strong. The Bay and Eatons put so much effort into making their downtown stores destinations with the best of the best. But what point is there to say going to a downtown Nordstroms if it is the same size as their suburban counterparts?

Even Australia beats Canada. Sydney's main high class department store has a main store, and across the street a mens store. Two huge buildings.

[miketoronto]

Just to show how Toronto and Canada are getting the short end of the stick.

This is the size of the new department stores which opened in downtown San Francisco:

Bloomingdale's (338,000 ft²; opened 2006)
Nordstrom (350,000 ft²; opened 1988)

And just for fun.

Shinsegae in Busan which opened in 2009 us over 3,000,000 sq feet.

[GreaterMontréal]

35 millions people is the answer.

[bikegypsy]

Just to show how Toronto and Canada are getting the short end of the stick.

This is the size of the new department stores which opened in downtown San Francisco:

Bloomingdale's (338,000 ft²; opened 2006)
Nordstrom (350,000 ft²; opened 1988)

And just for fun.

Shinsegae in Busan which opened in 2009 us over 3,000,000 sq feet.

Indeed! Busan has the largest department store in the world. My jaw dropped when I saw the Lotte department store in Daegu, which put to shame anything I had seen in Toronto or Montreal.

[SpongeG]

they also have over 20 million people to serve

[ue]

Nordstorm Locations

Toronto - 213,000 sq feet
Vancouver - 230,000 sq feet.

What about Calgary and Ottawa?

[SpongeG]

nordstrom calgary will be smaller than the previous sears

but these are the sizes:

Fall of 2014: Chinook Centre, Calgary — two levels, approximately 140,000 square feet
Spring 2015: Rideau Centre, Ottawa — two levels, approximately 157,000 square feet

from: http://www.cadillacfairview.com/notesdata/hr/cf_lp4w_lnd_webstation.nsf/page/Nordstrom+to+open+in+Canada

[srperrycgy]

nordstrom calgary will be smaller than the previous sears

Fall of 2014: Chinook Centre, Calgary — two levels, approximately 140,000 square feet


The old Sears space has been completely gutted and will be under construction for a few months yet. There was a massive Mammoet crane on site the other day lifting in new HVAC equipment on the roof. Should be a decent store, but its not really my style.

[GreatTallNorth2]

North American stores just don't know how to do retail anymore. If this was Europe, they would have a grand architectural design, tons of selling space, etc.

And if this was Asia, it would probably be even better. A department store in South Korean just opened not long ago the worlds largest department store, surpassing Macy's in New York.

The big large department store is not dead. North American retailing is dead with no style, passion, or sense of thinking big anymore.

^This.

European department stores put Canadian one's to complete shame. In the UK, department stores really know how to build and showcase their brands. Stores like John Lewis, Marks & Spencer, Debenhams, House of Fraser, Selfridges and Harrods. Walking through these stores, you are amazed at how well retail stores can look. In Canada, walking through department stores after living in the UK, it is such a disgrace. I remember walking through the Bay when I got back in Canada and saw fold out tables in the isles with clothing merchandised like it was their last day in business. Maybe these American brands coming to Canada will cause Canadian brands to do better. I guess we have Simons and Holt Renfrew, but these brands are out of reach for most consumers and don't have a lot of locations.

[OTSkyline]

Hey, at least it's giving us more retail choices than before. In Canada we don't have any department stores other than Sears and The Bay really... Sears seem to be a disgrace. It's closing everywhere, never hear from it, and the few times you do go there, there's nothing.

Me personally, I like The Bay, I think it has a lot of work to do but it has potential. It usually has some good offerings (Ralph Lauren Polo, Calvin Klein, Diesel, the new section for Top Shop etc..), good prices, good amount and space and good locations. What they do need to work on it layout and renovations. Their Rideau St location is a mess. There's always stuff laying around, dust bunnies rolling in the ailes, mix-matched floorings, squeeky flooring, random wig shops in the middle of the store etc... I think if they would repair and renovate the entire building, re-merchandise, there's good potential there and I don't see why it wouldn't be successful and competitive with Nordstrom and Macy's...

[Gerrard]

Maison Simon is most definitely not out of reach for most Canadians. It's a mid-priced department store with a bit of luxury. And they have a great online presence with free shipping in Canada.

I suggest people visit the revamped Bay at Yonge and Bay if they think department stores in Canada are losing their way. They've done a great job.

The other issue is North American shopping habits are a bit different. If you're looking for a European shopping experience, get on a plane (or better yet, a steamship) and go to Europe.

[SignalHillHiker]

I just find the largest Canadian stores, like the Bay, Sears, etc., stock such outdated clothes. Unless you're looking for something very basic, they're hard places to find anything. That said, when they have sales, they're real sales with great deals. I put up with a wool winter jacket that wasn't double-breasted for several years because the sale price at Sears was just too good to pass up.

Everything else is hideously overpriced and seems to be targeted to a middle-aged woman's aesthetic. I prefer smaller stores for things like housewares, etc.

In Winnipeg, the Happy Cooker is amazing. Here, JUNK has really good housewares:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Wearejunk/492063977515561

These are the kinds of places that stock what's actually interesting.

[esquire]

European department stores put Canadian one's to complete shame. In the UK, department stores really know how to build and showcase their brands. Stores like John Lewis, Marks & Spencer, Debenhams, House of Fraser, Selfridges and Harrods. Walking through these stores, you are amazed at how well retail stores can look. In Canada, walking through department stores after living in the UK, it is such a disgrace. I remember walking through the Bay when I got back in Canada and saw fold out tables in the isles with clothing merchandised like it was their last day in business. Maybe these American brands coming to Canada will cause Canadian brands to do better. I guess we have Simons and Holt Renfrew, but these brands are out of reach for most consumers and don't have a lot of locations.

No question that European and especially Asian department stores blow away what we have on this continent. So what hurt North American department stores so badly? It has gotten to the point where even the biggest, grandest department stores left in thriving, vibrant cities like NY, Chicago, Toronto, SF would be considered third-rate in Seoul or Tokyo. And don't even ask about the department stores in tier two or three cities, most of which are badly neglected and look like they're on life support.

It is amazing how quickly department stores went from utterly dominating retail spending in Canada as recently as the 60s to being relegated to the sidelines by 2000. I guess people have moved on from department stores to other forms of shopping, but the effect that losing these huge stores has had on downtowns is unfortunate.

[SignalHillHiker]

Damn it. It's a part of our heritage. Hopefully they aren't planning to do it...

They replaced Ayre's with Dominion, and that was bad then, but now we're used to Dominion. :D

To start this post off, let me say I have no source and this is pure observational speculation...

I think Loblaws is going to drop the Dominion name and rebrand their NL stores to brands used in the rest of the country. I've noticed many of their printed multi-store materials that used to bear the Dominion logo no longer do. They have also flipped the logo around on the Pearlgate Mount Pearl store to make the Loblaw L instead of the Dominion D.

This may all mean nothing but it seems logical to me that they are going to align our stores with the rest of the country..

Loblaw has enough retail banners to manage without having one just for NL (Loblaw, Superstore, Longo's, Zehrs, Extra Foods, No Frills, etc, etc)

[GreatTallNorth2]

Damn it. It's a part of our heritage. Hopefully they aren't planning to do it...

They replaced Ayre's with Dominion, and that was bad then, but now we're used to Dominion. :D

This is something else that I find bizarre. Why does Loblaws (and others) have so many brands? Once again, in the UK, stores have one brand. Tesco is Tesco. Sainsbury's is Sainsbury's. They have smaller format stores and big stores, but they are the same brand. No such thing as "here is our cheap ugly store format" and our "posh store". One store with standard pricing across the chain.

[SignalHillHiker]

This is something else that I find bizarre. Why does Loblaws (and others) have so many brands? Once again, in the UK, stores have one brand. Tesco is Tesco. Sainsbury's is Sainsbury's. They have smaller format stores and big stores, but they are the same brand. No such thing as "here is our cheap ugly store format" and our "posh store". One store with standard pricing across the chain.

Regionalism at its finest, I suppose. People seem very conscious of how their region is treated by national/international companies.

Coca Cola here is a non-starter. They closed their local factories. Pepsi here is actually branded "Your Local Cola". There are places that won't serve Coke.

Loblaw's (Dominion locally) is a mixed bag. Built great new stores, but closed old ones downtown and refused to lease out the spaces, leaving them vacant. On the other hand, they feature us well in national commercials, they made their store in the old Memorial Stadium a real showpiece.

Some Halifax (I believe) clothing company called East Coast Style is showing us the time of day with extensive promotion here. You see their clothes EVERYWHERE now, just because they went with hyper-local promotion.

That'd be my guess why national chains are reluctant to get rid of their regional brands in certain areas.

But I doubt if it really matters. Tim Horton's, fast food chains, all of that... they all do well. People get used to it. And I doubt anyone really thinks Dominion is run by the Ayre family, or that Pepsi's local profits stay in the province.

[Acajack]

Regionalism at its finest, I suppose. People seem very conscious of how their region is treated by national/international companies.

Coca Cola here is a non-starter. They closed their local factories. Pepsi here is actually branded "Your Local Cola". There are places that won't serve Coke.

.

Another thing NL and QC have in common!

[ue]

I just find the largest Canadian stores, like the Bay, Sears, etc., stock such outdated clothes. Unless you're looking for something very basic, they're hard places to find anything. That said, when they have sales, they're real sales with great deals. I put up with a wool winter jacket that wasn't double-breasted for several years because the sale price at Sears was just too good to pass up.

Everything else is hideously overpriced and seems to be targeted to a middle-aged woman's aesthetic. I prefer smaller stores for things like housewares, etc.

In Winnipeg, the Happy Cooker is amazing. Here, JUNK has really good housewares:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Wearejunk/492063977515561

These are the kinds of places that stock what's actually interesting.

I agree with you about Sears, which really seems dated and geared to the middle aged and elderly. The only store in Edmonton that's really any sort of busy seems to be the huge Kingsway location on the Northside.

The Bay though, in my experience, the layouts and interior design choices still feel dated (though they seem to be slowly renovating stores from the flagships down), but the vibe is a lot less depressing than that of Sears. Especially over the past few years, as the store has picked up its game and tried to win back customers. The Bay offers a lot more trending fashion and brands than Sears does. It still isn't Simons or Holt Renfrew (which are the nicest looking national dept stores), but far better than Sears or most American department stores or the Bay of 10 years ago.

[SignalHillHiker]

I agree with you about Sears, which really seems dated and geared to the middle aged and elderly. The only store in Edmonton that's really any sort of busy seems to be the huge Kingsway location on the Northside.

The Bay though, in my experience, the layouts and interior design choices still feel dated (though they seem to be slowly renovating stores from the flagships down), but the vibe is a lot less depressing than that of Sears. Especially over the past few years, as the store has picked up its game and tried to win back customers. The Bay offers a lot more trending fashion and brands than Sears does. It still isn't Simons or Holt Renfrew (which are the nicest looking national dept stores), but far better than Sears or most American department stores or the Bay of 10 years ago.

That could very well be. There isn't one in St. John's. The last time I was in one was in Winnipeg, prior to 2010.

[Trevor3]

Regionalism at its finest, I suppose. People seem very conscious of how their region is treated by national/international companies.

Coca Cola here is a non-starter. They closed their local factories. Pepsi here is actually branded "Your Local Cola". There are places that won't serve Coke.

Loblaw's (Dominion locally) is a mixed bag. Built great new stores, but closed old ones downtown and refused to lease out the spaces, leaving them vacant. On the other hand, they feature us well in national commercials, they made their store in the old Memorial Stadium a real showpiece.

Some Halifax (I believe) clothing company called East Coast Style is showing us the time of day with extensive promotion here. You see their clothes EVERYWHERE now, just because they went with hyper-local promotion.

That'd be my guess why national chains are reluctant to get rid of their regional brands in certain areas.

But I doubt if it really matters. Tim Horton's, fast food chains, all of that... they all do well. People get used to it. And I doubt anyone really thinks Dominion is run by the Ayre family, or that Pepsi's local profits stay in the province.

I hate when you make me feel like the anti-Newfoundlander. I ALWAYS choose Coke over Pepsi, always, it's just better... and now I feel terrible for it:(

This East Coast Lifestyle thing is really taking off, I see it everywhere. City Streets in Stephenville stocked a bunch of it over Christmas though and hardly moved any of it, I guess somebody at the company didn't realize they were sending items to a place that identifies as being on the west coast. Slight oversight there.

I've said before to many people, every time I go to Sears I feel like I'm stepping into 1983. The Corner Brook store was renovated last year, now it feels like 1988. In all honesty they simply changed the tone of toupe coloured paint on the walls.

[SignalHillHiker]

I hate when you make me feel like the anti-Newfoundlander. I ALWAYS choose Coke over Pepsi, always, it's just better... and now I feel terrible for it:(

This East Coast Lifestyle thing is really taking off, I see it everywhere. City Streets in Stephenville stocked a bunch of it over Christmas though and hardly moved any of it, I guess somebody at the company didn't realize they were sending items to a place that identifies as being on the west coast. Slight oversight there.

I've said before to many people, every time I go to Sears I feel like I'm stepping into 1983. The Corner Brook store was renovated last year, now it feels like 1988. In all honesty they simply changed the tone of toupe coloured paint on the walls.

Oh, don't feel bad. I buy Coke Zero myself. :haha: But, honestly, I have been told off for it in a pretending-it's-a-joke way a couple of times.

Also :haha: @ selling "East Coast" on the west coast. That's cute!

And yes, Sears is brutal. I like it for dress shirts, socks, underwear, etc... but that's about it.

I wonder if it's a local thing? I wouldn't be surprised if the Sears here just stocks what isn't selling in the larger centres. But can they get away with that in the digital age?

[SpongeG]

sears should be replaced with kohls who is apparently looking at opening in canada

[miketoronto]

Was just at The Bay Queen Street today. I have to say, The Bay is doing a great job with their downtown stores. It is looking great, edgy, nice modern merchandise. And something you almost never saw before, young people including teens with Hudson's Bay bags at Queen Station.

They are not fully there like their European or Asian counterparts. But the stores are doing better.

I was also impressed with the Hudson's Bay's 1670 brand. Some really nice looking clothing coming out of that line, that I would actually want to wear.

[ue]

^ Downtown Stores? Edmonton and Winnipeg would beg to differ.

[Nouvellecosse]

Toronto has two downtown Bays don't forget. ;)

[ue]

^ Haha, yeah, I was thinking Mike was talking about Downtown Bay stores nationwide. I know the ones in Toronto, Calgary, and Vancouver (not sure about Montreal) are looking pretty slick these days, but other downtown locations, while perhaps not struggling, definitely do not look like the Queen West Bay.

[vanatox]

^ Haha, yeah, I was thinking Mike was talking about Downtown Bay stores nationwide. I know the ones in Toronto, Calgary, and Vancouver (not sure about Montreal) are looking pretty slick these days, but other downtown locations, while perhaps not struggling, definitely do not look like the Queen West Bay.

I thought they were just renovating the ones in Toronto, Vancouver and Montréal? The are the only one for now I think that are going upscale with The Room, for example.

[ue]

^ I think the Downtown Calgary one just maintained itself better over the years. It may have polished up in recent years with the rest of the brand, though I do know it isn't like in Toronto or Vancouver. Not sure if they renovated it any in conjunction with the Core renos a few years ago. Either way, it looks a lot more polished than Downtown Edmonton or Winnipeg's Bay stores. In the case of Edmonton, the original Bay Store on Jasper Ave and 103rd St now holds the UofA's Enterprise Square and a few other businesses. The Bay left its former historic location for a block north in City Centre Mall after the demise of Eatons. But that location was a lot smaller, so they moved the city flagship to Southgate in the suburbs. I think Edmonton is the only city in this situation, though I could be wrong.

[niwell]

Was just at The Bay Queen Street today. I have to say, The Bay is doing a great job with their downtown stores. It is looking great, edgy, nice modern merchandise. And something you almost never say before, young people including teens with Hudson's Bay bags at Queen Station.




Yep - the Bay at Yonge/Queen is actually amazing these days. I requested Bay gift certificates from my parents this Xmas just so I could shop there. They now have many of the same things you can find further west on Queen just maybe not quite as current. I've gotten a ton of Ben Sherman stuff there on sale that is barely off-season.

[miketoronto]

^ Downtown Stores? Edmonton and Winnipeg would beg to differ.

Edmonton and Winnipeg have not gotten as much love in their downtown stores, because I don't think The Bay finds those two downtowns as prosperous or the main shopping areas of the city, as in other big Canadian cities.

[esquire]

The Bay left its former historic location for a block north in City Centre Mall after the demise of Eatons. But that location was a lot smaller, so they moved the city flagship to Southgate in the suburbs. I think Edmonton is the only city in this situation, though I could be wrong.

Winnipeg's de facto main Bay store is at Polo Park Shopping Centre, which is a few kms west of downtown. It has been this way ever since The Bay opened their Polo Park store in the early 2000s after the Eaton's (and Sears-owned "eatons") store on that site finally went under.

Since then the downtown Bay store has been in a state of slow but terminal decline. Only 3 of the 7 levels are still open - they were all open as recently as a few years ago.

[connect2source]

The Hudson's Bay in downtown Vancouver is outstanding now! Hadn't shopped there in many years but it's, by far, the best full-line dept. store Vancouver's ever seen, beginning with the largest Topshop / Topman outside the UK taking up the entire basement, it has a totally happening London vibe, the staff, music and merchandise are all great. The main floor has been 90% refurbished with a super-slick cosmetic section, a huge free-standing Coach store, the second level has top-end women's and The Room, the 6th floor all-new men's floor is outstanding with a full range of lines like Diesel, G-Star, Ben Sherman, J Lindberg, Denim and Supply, Strellson, Boss and many many more, all housed in a decor that mixes historic and hip, complete with an espresso bar!

Many of the men's fashions lines are more complete than neighbouring Holt's and the place is filled with hipsters and fashion-forward clients. It's seems to get better all the time and I believe they're fully positioned to take on Canada's largest Nordstrom coming next year just across Granville St. in the former Eaton's / Sears building.

It's truly a destination store and a reason why downtown Vancouver remains very vibrant, these types of stores can't be duplicated in the burbs and give people a reason to visit and shop downtown. The new Nordstrom, renovated Hudson's Bay and the recently re-built Holts create a huge draw for shoppers from all parts of Greater Vancouver, a lesson to other centres looking to make their city-centres a draw once again.

[SignalHillHiker]

Now I wish we had The Bay instead of Sears.

So far they're only in seven provinces:

Alberta, B.C., Manitoba, Nova Scotia, Ontario, Quebec, and Saskatchewan.

They've had centuries to get to N.B., PEI, and N.L. if they wanted to... so I don't imagine it's any good to wait. :haha:

[Nouvellecosse]

Now that The Bay doesn't suck, there should be a prominent new location in central Halifax since I've always hated that we lack a downtown department store. Where would be the big question of course. Perhaps they could renovate part of Scotia Square.

[someone123]

Now that The Bay doesn't suck, there should be a prominent new location in central Halifax since I've always hated that we lack a downtown department store. Where would be the big question of course. Perhaps they could renovate part of Scotia Square.

There's Mills, although it's pretty small.

This seems pretty unlikely to me, but who knows? There actually never was a Bay location in downtown Halifax, and I don't think they came to the city until the 60's or so. Department stores were never quite as big there as they were in Western cities, presumably because there were already lots of established retailers by the time the railways were built. The railway hotels were similar; they were the biggest in town but they always had lots of competition.

I think there would have to be a significantly larger downtown population and much better transit in Halifax for a company to consider building a medium-sized department store downtown.

[MonctonRad]

Now I wish we had The Bay instead of Sears.

So far they're only in seven provinces:

Alberta, B.C., Manitoba, Nova Scotia, Ontario, Quebec, and Saskatchewan.

They've had centuries to get to N.B., PEI, and N.L. if they wanted to... so I don't imagine it's any good to wait. :haha:

There actually was a Bay in downtown Moncton. They were in Highfield Square (they moved in when Eaton's went bankrupt). The Bay in Moncton closed when Highfield became one of the "dead malls of Canada". :haha:

Highfield Square will be torn down this year as this is the preferred location for the proposed new downtown arena and events centre in Moncton.

The Bay actually didn't want to leave. One of my sons worked there for a bit, and he said the managers were telling the staff that the chain has every intention of returning to Moncton at some point in the future. Where and when is up in the air. There is only one traditional mall left in Moncton (Champlain Place), and the way that the Sears Canada chain is going, I could see the Bay taking over the Sears leasehold in Champlain in a couple of years…...

[SignalHillHiker]

Excellent, I hope it works out.

I used to work in Champlain Place. :haha: I'll always remember it because that's where I was on 9/11.

*****

I'd say downtown Halifax can support a Bay already. In the area around Scotia Square/the casino. It could probably be 3-4 floors and do well.

[SpongeG]

a look at some of what the bay can do... for those who havent seen the redone vancouver store...

enHxQFn95-k

5otAC-DmqwE

1Jp53zKMQCw

mens:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3754/10864221684_c6bb215812_c.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2845/10864080095_37e195ee88_c.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3785/10864118726_c1078192d3_z.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3755/10864117916_30e49a9a8b_z.jpg

pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/darrellinyvr/

[J.OT13]

Edmonton and Winnipeg would beg to differ.

Add Ottawa to the list. I don't think HBC has done any work on our downtown flagship since the Rideau Centre was built across the street in 1983. Even now with the Rideau expansion u/c and both Simon's and Nordstrom coming across the street in 2015-2016, nothing seems to be happening.

[Nouvellecosse]

There's Mills, although it's pretty small.

This seems pretty unlikely to me, but who knows? There actually never was a Bay location in downtown Halifax, and I don't think they came to the city until the 60's or so. Department stores were never quite as big there as they were in Western cities, presumably because there were already lots of established retailers by the time the railways were built. The railway hotels were similar; they were the biggest in town but they always had lots of competition.

I think there would have to be a significantly larger downtown population and much better transit in Halifax for a company to consider building a medium-sized department store downtown.

I've never been in Mills. Is it actually a department store? I always thought it was just (mainly women's) clothing.



I'd say downtown Halifax can support a Bay already. In the area around Scotia Square/the casino. It could probably be 3-4 floors and do well.
Well similar cities like London and Victoria have downtown Bay stores and as mentioned there had long been one in Moncton (first Eatons, then the Bay). But of course every city is different.

[MalcolmTucker]

Add Ottawa to the list. I don't think HBC has done any work on our downtown flagship since the Rideau Centre was built across the street in 1983. Even now with the Rideau expansion u/c and both Simon's and Nordstrom coming across the street in 2015-2016, nothing seems to be happening.

Calgary's is getting reno'd but not the full todo. They are removing the health club and putting in an events centre (don't think it will have a hall like Carlu, but think that minus the hall), and a couple restaurants. Otherwise it is getting a refresh but no 'the room' or top shop. I believe Top Shop is going into Chinook Mall. It wasn't considered connected enough to Calgary's downtown mall, the Core (560k sqft, $609 sale/sqft, as there is a mall that feels more like a 70s suburban failing mall connecting the two.

[J.OT13]

Calgary's is getting reno'd but not the full todo. They are removing the health club and putting in an events centre (don't think it will have a hall like Carlu, but think that minus the hall), and a couple restaurants. Otherwise it is getting a refresh but no 'the room' or top shop. I believe Top Shop is going into Chinook Mall. It wasn't considered connected enough to Calgary's downtown mall, the Core (560k sqft, $609 sale/sqft, as there is a mall that feels more like a 70s suburban failing mall connecting the two.

Considering the continued boom of Calgary's downtown (both offices and condos), I'm surprised they didn't go all out like Vancouver and TO.

I must say I'm a little surprised by the $/sqft of Core, it seems a little low. The Rideau Centre's revenue is 1020$/sqft according to retail insider, a little lower than Chinook's 1055$/sqft.

While I'm at it, the list of the 15 most successful malls in North America; from August 2012;

1. Pacific Centre, Vancouver BC Canada: $1580/sq ft

2. Caesar's Palace, Las Vegas NV USA: $1470/sq ft

3. Toronto Eaton Centre, Toronto ON Canada: $1320/sq ft

4. Yorkdale Shopping Centre, Toronto ON Canada: $1300/sq ft

5. Ala Moana Shopping Centre, Honolulu HI USA: $1250/sq ft

6. Oakridge Shopping Centre, Vancouver BC Canada: $1200/sq ft

7. Chinook Centre, Calgary AB Canada: $1055/sq ft

8. Mall at Short Hills, Short Hills NJ USA: $1050/sq ft

9. Mall at Millenia, Orlando FL USA: $1040/sq ft

10. Rideau Centre, Ottawa ON Canada: $1020/sq ft

11: Sherway Gardens, Toronto ON Canada: $950

12: Fairview Mall, Toronto ON Canada: $880/sq ft

13: Fashion Valley Shopping Centre, San Diego CA USA: $875/sq ft

14: Peter Pond Mall, Ft. McMurray AB Canada: $850/sq ft (we're not joking about this one)

15: Garden State Plaza, Paramus NJ USA: $750/sq ft

http://www.retail-insider.com/2012/08/many-of-north-americas-most-productive.html

[J.OT13]

I don't know if this was posted, but Nordstrom to replace Sears at Eaton Centre. With Sears offices staying on the top 4 floors and Nordstrom taking up 213,000 sqft, that leaves 140,000 sqft. Simons maybe?

Nordstrom to replace Sears at the Toronto Eaton Centre

As many of us expected, Nordstrom has announced that it will replace Sears at the Toronto Eaton Centre. It will open a 213,000 square foot, three-level store. Construction begins in March and the store is scheduled to open in the fall of 2016, around the same time as its Yorkdale Shopping Centre location.

Although Sears will vacate the Toronto Eaton Centre space next month, it will continue to occupy approximately 460,000 square feet of office space over four floors above Nordstrom for Sears Canada's headquarters. The office space was formerly retail space.

In total, the Toronto Eaton Centre Sears is about 816,000 square feet. Besides the square footage to be occupied by Nordstrom and Sears Canada's office space, an additional 140,000 square feet of retail space will become available for other retailers. Tenant(s) are expected to be announced in the near future.

Despite the fact that it will be the company's Canadian flagship, the Toronto Eaton Centre Nordstrom will be its second-largest Canadian store location. Its Vancouver store will be larger at almost 230,000 square feet.

Sears sold its Toronto Eaton Centre lease back to landlord Cadillac Fairview in October. Sears' Canadian entry was made possible after it sold back store leases in Vancouver, Ottawa and Calgary. It subsequently sold two other leases, paving the way for a Nordstrom store at Toronto's Yorkdale Shopping Centre.


“Our properties were the first to welcome Nordstrom to Canada, and we're thrilled to continue our partnership with Nordstrom in the opening of five of six of its locations in Canada,” said John Sullivan, President and Chief Executive Officer, Cadillac Fairview.


Wayne Barwise, Executive Vice President of Development at Cadillac Fairview said that over the past three years the corporation has spent $120 million in enhancements to Toronto Eaton Centre.


“This second phase of redevelopment will include an additional $400 million. We are delighted to have Nordstrom be part of this exciting venture as we continue to bring a premier urban retail shopping experience to the city,” he said in a release.


Nordstrom Toronto Eaton Centre joins five previously announced Canadian stores. Nordstrom plans to open additional full-line stores and Nordstrom Rack stores as the company continues to expand into the Canadian market.


http://www.retail-insider.com/2014/01/breaking-nordstrom-to-replace-sears-at.html

[someone123]

I've never been in Mills. Is it actually a department store? I always thought it was just (mainly women's) clothing.

I've only been in there once and it was years ago but at that time it was a department store with 2 (or maybe 3?) floors.

Gottingen also used to have one or two small department stores back in the 50's but they are long gone.

Well similar cities like London and Victoria have downtown Bay stores and as mentioned there had long been one in Moncton (first Eatons, then the Bay). But of course every city is different.

I think a lot of these are open today more because of inertia than anything else. The Bay seems to have done a little better than Eaton's because it is higher-end and competes less directly with Wal-Mart type businesses.

[Nouvellecosse]

Considering the continued boom of Calgary's downtown (both offices and condos), I'm surprised they didn't go all out like Vancouver and TO.

I must say I'm a little surprised by the $/sqft of Core, it seems a little low. The Rideau Centre's revenue is 1020$/sqft according to retail insider, a little lower than Chinook's 1055$/sqft.

While I'm at it, the list of the 15 most successful malls in North America; from August 2012;

1. Pacific Centre, Vancouver BC Canada: $1580/sq ft

2. Caesar's Palace, Las Vegas NV USA: $1470/sq ft

3. Toronto Eaton Centre, Toronto ON Canada: $1320/sq ft

4. Yorkdale Shopping Centre, Toronto ON Canada: $1300/sq ft

5. Ala Moana Shopping Centre, Honolulu HI USA: $1250/sq ft

6. Oakridge Shopping Centre, Vancouver BC Canada: $1200/sq ft

7. Chinook Centre, Calgary AB Canada: $1055/sq ft

8. Mall at Short Hills, Short Hills NJ USA: $1050/sq ft

9. Mall at Millenia, Orlando FL USA: $1040/sq ft

10. Rideau Centre, Ottawa ON Canada: $1020/sq ft

11: Sherway Gardens, Toronto ON Canada: $950

12: Fairview Mall, Toronto ON Canada: $880/sq ft

13: Fashion Valley Shopping Centre, San Diego CA USA: $875/sq ft

14: Peter Pond Mall, Ft. McMurray AB Canada: $850/sq ft (we're not joking about this one)

15: Garden State Plaza, Paramus NJ USA: $750/sq ft

http://www.retail-insider.com/2012/08/many-of-north-americas-most-productive.html


Surprised that the Pacific Centre has higher rents than the Eaton Centre and that Toronto has 2 in the top 10 and 4 in the top 15. And that Ft. McMurray one is completely out of the blue. :ack:

[VIce]

Calgary's is getting reno'd but not the full todo. They are removing the health club and putting in an events centre (don't think it will have a hall like Carlu, but think that minus the hall), and a couple restaurants. Otherwise it is getting a refresh but no 'the room' or top shop. I believe Top Shop is going into Chinook Mall. It wasn't considered connected enough to Calgary's downtown mall, the Core (560k sqft, $609 sale/sqft, as there is a mall that feels more like a 70s suburban failing mall connecting the two.
The Chinook additions are already complete, as far as I know. Scotiacentre (that connected the Bay to the Core) has recently done some serious renos of its own, although I still don't think its as nice a space as the Core.

[Policy Wonk]

Considering the continued boom of Calgary's downtown (both offices and condos), I'm surprised they didn't go all out like Vancouver and TO.

There are architectural and engineering issues, that building should have been torn down sixty years ago.

I saw some market research done by a US chain on downtown Calgary last summer that did not put the Core in a very positive light, it basically boiled down to " - The "downtown retail corridor" is not a recognized shopping destination. People don't have a positive or negative opinion, they have no opinion what so ever."