Tucson Development Thread

[AZ71]

The arena would be a money pit and a bad idea even if built.

I think people should really consider the ill effects of turning downtown Tucson from what sort of resembles a neighborhood into a collection of uses. Phoenix tried that for 25 years and it was an unmitigated disaster. Civic Plaza, the arena, the ballpark, and even ASU (the one thing they did which arguably worked however) was a wide, indiscriminate blade of urban renewal. Downtowns do not need that sort of thing.

Even if it did muster the finances for some sort of signature project, it still has a seemingly slow, unpredictable development process (like 8 months to approve a storage unit) and complicated zoning code. None of that small town mindset is going to go away even if they did fill some big britches and approve some sort of potential catalyst.

I see your point...but I do think the downtown area needs something signature. Putting up another Flinn-type apartment complex on the "arena site" just seems like another total flop. We need something of interest to help Tucson stand out in my opinion. Maybe something like a modern Disney-hall type venue like they have in downtown LA. I thought that tortoise shell idea for a convention center years ago was an interesting concept for some kind of building.

I still think combining the idea of a sound stage complex to help our growing film industry...combined with an entertainment component for regular people would be great if designed properly. And it would act as overflow for TCC events and maybe Nor-Gen could put his ugly tent Gem & Mineral Show in one of the unused sound stages.

https://i.imgur.com/DKpmTsQ.png

https://i.imgur.com/AxfzBzy.png

[southtucsonboy77]

Not that I fully disagree with anything that is being said...but a lot has been accomplished in the last 10 years or so. Yeah, some of the completed developments have been a disappointment (the Flinn apartment complex, the Rendezvous Urban Flats); and non-completed (the Ronstadt, Nor-Gen, 75 E. Broadway), but Tucson has done well...and there's still a lot of infill and density to be done. From Main Gate/University, to 4th Ave, to Congress...there's been good projects and development. Tucsonans don't give this area enough credit for its many options of bars and restaurants in one accessible location. Tucson toe-to-toe against other mid-size metros, Tucson's bar district will blow them out of the water. Someone mentioned Albq...have you really been to Albq recently? Their Uptown area is blossoming with chain bars, but their downtown has been stagnant for over 10 years now.

The Main Gate Overlay wasn't perfect, but it got the job done. The Mercado District Overlay isn't perfect (can there be any more off-white buildings?), but its growing. I just hope and pray Tucson stops this trend of 4- to 7-story girthy buildings that are plaguing the SW. Phoenix and Albuquerque have been the worse. They provide no architectural value to an urban core. 75 E. Broadway can have their wide parking garage, but the tower should only be half the width. I've seen it done in Dallas. Lastly, I am part of a development that hopefully can kickoff soon. We're aiming to go "up"...I am not the primary or the decision-maker...but we're heading in that direction.

[combusean]

Agree that Tucson's core is actually pretty good. I mean, from 4th Ave/4th St to the mess of the county crap on Church and Congress is a sold mile and no city in that half of Arizona has that much linear walkability.

The midrise apartment blocks are rarely attractive as far as design alone goes but they add needed density, the underly zoning often demands pedestrian entrances with at least patios/townhome entry, and the market reflects any GFR or not. Nearly all of these in Phoenix were built on vacant land, something I find oddly lacking in Tucson.

Modern Class A+ office demands large floor plates and has for many years. 75 E Broadway was designed to reflect that. Most of Dallas's office high-rises are obsolete and reflect the demand for the submarket rather than the tenant's particular desires such as amenities, deck to deck spans, floor plates, favorable parking ratios, etc. Tucson might have actually dodged a bullet there rather than say Phoenix which is filled with outmoded towers and high vacancy rates.

The thing that constantly sticks out for me with Tucson is how much people complain about the usual ineffectual, small-time local developers and I think it shows because, eg, nothing has been built new on 4th that I can tell and there are many lots and crummy buildings that should have been replaced by now with the streetcar. Phoenix had that problem and it doesn't any more. That problem can be addressed at City Hall with a willing council and things like the right zoning and a predictable administration.

[AZ71]

I agree with @southtucsonboy77 about the 75 E Broadway project. In fact, I emailed them and made that very same suggestion of using the full lot for parking but only build half of it taller and higher. They claimed they really want that huge Class A office floor space. I believe they think some huge company is gonna move in because of it. But I believe companies are going out to the industrial & tech parks to set up shop and build their own buildings they'll own. Why rent when you can own? Its the same with commercial development.

And yes @southtucsonboy77....if you are working for a developer downtown....please can we get one skyscraper that is taller than One South Church? After 35 years...I think its time we have one building that goes at least 1 foot higher.

I've read that the 4-7 story building is the cheapest and most efficient way to construct bldgs these days...thus why you're seeing them everywhere.

I do agree the Main Gate area has seen tremendous growth. I sort of feel Main Gate is getting overbuilt in a way. They're nice looking buildings (some of them) but they're all the same 14-16 story size. So its very blocky looking. No open spaces or gathering places. But I love at least they're taller. So I'm not complaining. It seems the student housing developers are the only folks that can actually complete a building.

I was really hoping that Speedway Campbell Gateway project would happen. I thought it was a beautiful 20 story building...but of course...it fizzled out too.

[somethingfast]

i think you're all cutting Tucson way too much slack. yes, there's a nice little (key word: little) vibe in DT but given the 20+ years of Rio Nuevo solicitation for projects, not a lot of progress has been made. 4-7 stories boxes with little architectural interest (Phoenix also shares this problem) is not really something to "celebrate". i call it wasted time. being too harsh? maybe. but i'm a Tucson native and it frustrates me that a city of 1.1M has made so little progress in general and seems totally fine with that. this is a skyscraper forum...so i'm not fine with that. all three "talls" were built between 68 and 86 and nada since. not good enough.

[southtucsonboy77]

All I can say is that the project I'm involved with will be (at least right now) similar in height to the taller projects at Main Gate...but its not located at Main Gate or downtown. We're just verifying the market numbers. Crazy things can come up in development, but movement should happen in a couple of months.

[Eapiwo]

i think you're all cutting Tucson way too much slack. yes, there's a nice little (key word: little) vibe in DT but given the 20+ years of Rio Nuevo solicitation for projects, not a lot of progress has been made. 4-7 stories boxes with little architectural interest (Phoenix also shares this problem) is not really something to "celebrate". i call it wasted time. being too harsh? maybe. but i'm a Tucson native and it frustrates me that a city of 1.1M has made so little progress in general and seems totally fine with that. this is a skyscraper forum...so i'm not fine with that. all three "talls" were built between 68 and 86 and nada since. not good enough.

I've been following the discussion here for a while and would really like to chime in. For some ethos, I am a civil engineer. 4-7 story buildings are the most economically (and environmentally) viable dense builds unless you're in a place like Midtown Manhattan where the cost of land is in the hundreds of millions of dollars for a small slot. Someone mentioned that we should just take 75 E Broadway and take the width of the building and just stack it on itself. That's possible but not economically viable. Once a building starts getting past 7 or 8 stories the cost of building a new floor grows exponentially for each additional floor and the amount of usable square footage in the building reduces. So if you halve the width of 75 E Broadway and double the height, you'd pay millions more in construction costs and lose usable area (how buildings make money) to structural elements that support the building's height. So essentially you'd be increasing your costs and reducing your revenues. It'd be an absolute lose-lose situation for the developer.

combusean mentioned that the 5-6 story buildings are needed for density and he's absolutely right. Downtown density is a relevant metric for measuring the success of an urban core, especially along a streetcar route. Density is important!

A key element that people are missing is that downtown urban cores are meant to be neighborhoods. Viewing downtowns primarily as an entertainment destination is really unhealthy for a good downtown. Entertainment districts are great, but they support the car centric mindset that the US has and it really gets in the way of what a downtown should fundamentally serve as - a neighborhood. Main Gate Overlay has completely succeeded at that and Mercado is on a good track to do the same but with greater cultural elements.

Downtown was dead 15 years ago, now it's not. We've built the first hotel in 40 years, and then 3 more. We built the first apartment building, and then a bunch more. Rome wasn't built in a day and IMO Tucson is on a good track. It's baby steps but it's looking good. No, we haven't built a 30 story building but downtown/streetcar area is a pretty great place to be now. Tucson is building a solid urban core, just slower than we'd all like but we'll reap the rewards of having that solid urban core soon enough. It is frustrating that so many cool proposals haven't come into fruition but measuring success only by the amount of 300 foot buildings that have been built fails to see what is going right.

[somethingfast]

I've been following the discussion here for a while and would really like to chime in. For some ethos, I am a civil engineer. 4-7 story buildings are the most economically (and environmentally) viable dense builds unless you're in a place like Midtown Manhattan where the cost of land is in the hundreds of millions of dollars for a small slot. Someone mentioned that we should just take 75 E Broadway and take the width of the building and just stack it on itself. That's possible but not economically viable. Once a building starts getting past 7 or 8 stories the cost of building a new floor grows exponentially for each additional floor and the amount of usable square footage in the building reduces. So if you halve the width of 75 E Broadway and double the height, you'd pay millions more in construction costs and lose usable area (how buildings make money) to structural elements that support the building's height. So essentially you'd be increasing your costs and reducing your revenues. It'd be an absolute lose-lose situation for the developer.

combusean mentioned that the 5-6 story buildings are needed for density and he's absolutely right. Downtown density is a relevant metric for measuring the success of an urban core, especially along a streetcar route. Density is important!

A key element that people are missing is that downtown urban cores are meant to be neighborhoods. Viewing downtowns primarily as an entertainment destination is really unhealthy for a good downtown. Entertainment districts are great, but they support the car centric mindset that the US has and it really gets in the way of what a downtown should fundamentally serve as - a neighborhood. Main Gate Overlay has completely succeeded at that and Mercado is on a good track to do the same but with greater cultural elements.

Downtown was dead 15 years ago, now it's not. We've built the first hotel in 40 years, and then 3 more. We built the first apartment building, and then a bunch more. Rome wasn't built in a day and IMO Tucson is on a good track. It's baby steps but it's looking good. No, we haven't built a 30 story building but downtown/streetcar area is a pretty great place to be now. Tucson is building a solid urban core, just slower than we'd all like but we'll reap the rewards of having that solid urban core soon enough. It is frustrating that so many cool proposals haven't come into fruition but measuring success only by the amount of 300 foot buildings that have been built fails to see what is going right.

i personally appreciate your thoughtful response on this and i absolutely concede your points on engineering value (or return on value) constraints, etc. and it's not to diminish the value at street level of low-rise density. my criticism is simply that, the pursuit of tall buildings is NOT a linear function related to cost/value...it's the pursuit for "greatness" in human engineering and civic pride in many ways. it's the lack of pursuit here that is the major issue that i'm getting at. that's my own personal value...maybe not others. i just personally feel that Tucson needs some vision in DT that is absolutely lacking. incremental value is there, sure, but i'm just not seeing a true desire to bring commerce, arts and entertainment downtown...and that's local govts job - to facilitate this kind of public good creation.

[combusean]

Greatness doesn't rent. Tenants don't really care about being in the city's tallest building, they care about having spaces that work for them. That these days is high ceilings, large floorplates for open offices, on-site amenities, and the highest parking ratios in history.

And yes, the suburban buildings will always compete mostly because it's difficult to build that product in the usual downtown environment. 75 Broadway was on the right track at least.

[somethingfast]

^ yes, understand. but it's not sexy or interesting and i don't visit these forums to go gaga over "practical" development. is it necessary? sure. and we get plenty of it. in fact, that's all we get outside of the odd Astra that still isn't even a sure thing i guess. so, one can hope and dream that Tucson ends up with a new 30-story tower someday that gleams from 10 miles away and beckons you to the city's core. but, yeah, just a dream...

[AZ71]

I appreciate everyone's comments. But I just dont buy the comment that the higher you go the less profitable it is. Have you seen Phx or Austin lately? They have about mulitple, 20+ story residential towers going up. Why is it ok there for height but not Tucson? How do they get a positive ROI then?

Like others have mentioned, Tucson is at a snails pace. I'm sick of everyone mentioning "but we built a hotel" You do realize that AC Marriott was built over 5 years ago. But yes, we also built an ugly Hampton Inn/Home2 block. And the Doubletree at the TCC is ok but an odd placement. These are all small projects in my opinion when we could have had a 28-story Hilton or a 25-story Sheraton back in 2008 but city council (Kozachik) deemed it too big. I think that's what frustrates most of us on this skyscraper forum.

I just don't see a desire to excel at what we're doing downtown. Certainly seems we're hiring developers that cant follow through and architects that don't have vision. If we're stuck with 7-story buildings...at least make them architecturally interesting. I thought the Chroma on Speedway was cool-looking. But of course that project tanked. I will say I think the Mercado District's Bautista looks nice and at least aims to look better than the Flinn.

[crzyabe]

I appreciate everyone's comments. But I just dont buy the comment that the higher you go the less profitable it is. Have you seen Phx or Austin lately? They have about mulitple, 20+ story residential towers going up. Why is it ok there for height but not Tucson? How do they get a positive ROI then?

Both Phx and Austin have a higher average income than Tucson. I don't know, but I imagine that that the rents in those 20 story buildings are probably pretty excessive.

[AZ71]

Both Phx and Austin have a higher average income than Tucson. I don't know, but I imagine that that the rents in those 20 story buildings are probably pretty excessive.

Have you seen how much the RendezVous and Flin are? Last I checked RV was around $3000 for a 2 bedroom and Flin was $3,000 for a 3bed.
Maybe people would pay more if it was a better looking true tower. But clearly someone is paying these prices.

[Eapiwo]

I appreciate everyone's comments. But I just dont buy the comment that the higher you go the less profitable it is. Have you seen Phx or Austin lately? They have about mulitple, 20+ story residential towers going up. Why is it ok there for height but not Tucson? How do they get a positive ROI then?

Like others have mentioned, Tucson is at a snails pace. I'm sick of everyone mentioning "but we built a hotel" You do realize that AC Marriott was built over 5 years ago. But yes, we also built an ugly Hampton Inn/Home2 block. And the Doubletree at the TCC is ok but an odd placement. These are all small projects in my opinion when we could have had a 28-story Hilton or a 25-story Sheraton back in 2008 but city council (Kozachik) deemed it too big. I think that's what frustrates most of us on this skyscraper forum.

I just don't see a desire to excel at what we're doing downtown. Certainly seems we're hiring developers that cant follow through and architects that don't have vision. If we're stuck with 7-story buildings...at least make them architecturally interesting. I thought the Chroma on Speedway was cool-looking. But of course that project tanked. I will say I think the Mercado District's Bautista looks nice and at least aims to look better than the Flinn.

I can understand the confusion because I mixed my opinions in with some objective facts. The construction costs increase as buildings get taller. That's just an objective fact, not really something up for debate. Profit is still possible if you charge more but you need to have a large market of higher class customers willing to shell out that money. Austin is home to Tesla, Dell, Oracle, Whole Foods and more major national companies. Phoenix has quite a few of their own. Tucson doesn't. That's a huge difference. Average Tucson wages are lower than many other similar cities. So in Austin, they can get away with building luxury high rises that have rents far higher than the city's average because there is a demand for that. Sure, Rendezvous is charging 3000 a month but the complex has around 100 units. If it were to be a true skyscraper, with 4x the units it would likely cost 5-6 times what it cost to build their existing building, maybe even more since the existing building just used an existing parking garage. Rents would have to be hundreds of dollars more expensive per unit for the developer to make a profit. In Tucson, the developers have determined that that is not a risk they want to make. They determined that they will take the risk to fill 100 units at 3k a month rather than 400 at 4k.

The other big factor in determining heights is land cost. When land is more expensive, you'll need to have more sellable area in your building to break even with the overhead costs of getting the building built. It's a complicated formula that takes into account construction costs, insurance, construction duration, and other overhead things like insurance and road closures but ultimately what developers would want to know is how much they need to sell each unit for (on average). If that cost is way way higher than average for an area then it's not a viable project.

[AZ71]

I can understand the confusion because I mixed my opinions in with some objective facts. The construction costs increase as buildings get taller. That's just an objective fact, not really something up for debate. Profit is still possible if you charge more but you need to have a large market of higher class customers willing to shell out that money. Austin is home to Tesla, Dell, Oracle, Whole Foods and more major national companies. Phoenix has quite a few of their own. Tucson doesn't. That's a huge difference. Average Tucson wages are lower than many other similar cities. So in Austin, they can get away with building luxury high rises that have rents far higher than the city's average because there is a demand for that. Sure, Rendezvous is charging 3000 a month but the complex has around 100 units. If it were to be a true skyscraper, with 4x the units it would likely cost 5-6 times what it cost to build their existing building, maybe even more since the existing building just used an existing parking garage. Rents would have to be hundreds of dollars more expensive per unit for the developer to make a profit. In Tucson, the developers have determined that that is not a risk they want to make. They determined that they will take the risk to fill 100 units at 3k a month rather than 400 at 4k.

The other big factor in determining heights is land cost. When land is more expensive, you'll need to have more sellable area in your building to break even with the overhead costs of getting the building built. It's a complicated formula that takes into account construction costs, insurance, construction duration, and other overhead things like insurance and road closures but ultimately what developers would want to know is how much they need to sell each unit for (on average). If that cost is way way higher than average for an area then it's not a viable project.

How did One South Church get built in 1986? Was it just cheaper to build back then? OR how do all the Main Gate towers pull it off? They must pull in those higher prices but divided up among how many kids they can stuff in a room?
I guess some of the costs are offset by making them mixed used like retail/hotel/office/apartments? Does that help?

Isn't land far cheaper downtown than in other cities? There's really not that many available empty lots anymore unless they tear something down. I know there is one for sale for $1.3M right behind the Pima County Skyscraper.

Regardless...just wish if we have to stay within certain heights that we could at least construct something better than many of the ho-hum designs being approved.

[southtucsonboy77]

More development in the NW side...

American Furniture Warehouse Plans Store Equivalent to Four Football Fields in Marana

[southtucsonboy77]

It appears large distribution buildings will be developed soon.

Industrial Distribution Development at The Crossroads at Gladden (https://realestatedaily-news.com/flint-development-acquires-129-acres-for-large-industrial-distribution-development-at-the-crossroads-at-gladden/)

[InTheBurbs]

More Suburban/NW Side News

Per AZ Big Media, Arroyo Verde, a 156 Unit Apartment Complex is going up at La Cholla and Old Magee

https://azbigmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/The-Place-at-Arroyo-Verde.jpg

https://azbigmedia.com/real-estate/39-6-million-arroyo-verde-being-developed-near-tucson/

[ZonaRealtor2021]

Did anybody catch the full RN meeting today? I only caught the last tail end of it like 10 minutes about the container Park and the cadence getting approved

[AZ71]

I'd be interested what happened during the RN meeting too. Just reading the agenda I hope they dont approve the storage container building on the NE corner of Broadway & 5th to be like whats on 4th Ave. This is prime real estate. Weren't they going to build that 20 story Rialto Hotel project on that parcel at one time? RN needs to create a plan for downtown. Not just let whoever and whatever come in IMO.

[southtucsonboy77]

Here's the shipping container project proposed for Broadway/5th. Yes, there's the perspective that anything is better than a vacant lot and/or building. But man, in the heart of downtown? Its the same issue with the Flinn...an apartment complex. I'm not a big fan of this.

Shipping container venue proposed for downtown (https://www.kgun9.com/news/local-news/shipping-container-venue-proposed-for-downtown)

[ZonaRealtor2021]

Thanks for the info!
I’m all about more restaurants and bars but what a waste of available land in the heart of DT when it was supposed to be something so much more impressive!

[somethingfast]

Stupid "trendy" project that nobody will think was a good idea in 30 years.

[AZ71]

Ugly and in the wrong area. I seriously would rather have a gas station/EV charging station on that corner. People do still drive and if you make downtown a livable area full of people you're still going to have vehicles that need gas or charging.

[InTheBurbs]

Did anybody catch the full RN meeting today? I only caught the last tail end of it like 10 minutes about the container Park and the cadence getting approved

According to Inside Tucson Business, RN approved money towards Stiteler's restaurant, hotel, and apartment project on 6th. As previously mentioned, the first phase will include the restaurant, beer garden, pickleball, and parking. The second and third phase "contemplate" a 10-story hotel and 15-story apartment building.

So basically pickleball and parking then.

If they do proceed with the hotel and apartments, I hope they are not big, boring, beige towers like were planned for Opus next door.

Rendering of the refurbished Corbett block from ITB:

https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/insidetucsonbusiness.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/c/bd/cbd13b8e-d86d-11ec-9167-9f3ef073ac11/6287e334c93c9.image.jpg?resize=990%2C559

https://www.insidetucsonbusiness.com/construction_real_estate/rio-nuevo-approves-180m-hotel-project-on-sixth-street/article_59bce534-d86d-11ec-868d-3fc08f357bca.html

[High Plains Drifter]

Flint Development spends $21 million on property for Arizona industrial buildings

Work is to begin immediately on two buildings totaling almost 1 million square feet. Flint will build the structures on a spec basis, or without a tenant already signed.

https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2022/05/31/flint-development-21-million-arizona-industrial.html

[InTheBurbs]

TIA announces new non-stop to London.

Ok, so it's not THE London. But TUS will be Flair's first-ever destination from London, ON (YXU), and TIA's sixth Canadian destination this winter. And Tucson got some decent local press up there, with shots of downtown and Fourth Avenue along with the usual clips of cactus, golf, and biking.

https://london.ctvnews.ca/flair-airlines-announces-sunny-destination-from-london-1.5945485

Hopefully the fact that Flair is adding cities at this point means that their other flights are showing potential.

[ZonaRealtor2021]

TIA announces new non-stop to London.

Ok, so it's not THE London. But TUS will be Flair's first-ever destination from London, ON (YXU), and TIA's sixth Canadian destination this winter. And Tucson got some decent local press up there, with shots of downtown and Fourth Avenue along with the usual clips of cactus, golf, and biking.

https://london.ctvnews.ca/flair-airlines-announces-sunny-destination-from-london-1.5945485

Hopefully the fact that Flair is adding cities at this point means that their other flights are showing potential.

You got me with that title lol
Man this is great I hope it is successful even the agent in the news piece was super surprise about Tucson being the airlines first destination from this airport.

Now if we could only attract and sustain some good domestic routes and maybe a few to Mexico

[AZ71]

You got me with that title lol
Man this is great I hope it is successful even the agent in the news piece was super surprise about Tucson being the airlines first destination from this airport.

Now if we could only attract and sustain some good domestic routes and maybe a few to Mexico

It wont survive. I'm surprised they didn't start with Vegas or Orlando as initial desitnations. Far more popular than Tucson. Just like we lost a simple direct flight on Avelo Air from Tucson to Hollywood. That lasted a month. All Tucson can offer are tacos and trails. Most will want a little entertainment thrown into the mix which Tucson doesn't provide.

[Azstar]

It wont survive. I'm surprised they didn't start with Vegas or Orlando as initial desitnations. Far more popular than Tucson. Just like we lost a simple direct flight on Avelo Air from Tucson to Hollywood. That lasted a month. All Tucson can offer are tacos and trails. Most will want a little entertainment thrown into the mix which Tucson doesn't provide.

Tucson has a flair (pun intended) for attracting start up airlines flying to obscure locations. They don't usually last too long. Allegiant to Bellingham, WA and Provo, UT lasted a couple months. Allegiant couldn't even make two flights a week to Las Vegas work. Via Airlines to Austin (I don't think that one lasted a month), Avelo to Burbank, maybe lasted one month.

[ZonaRealtor2021]

It wont survive. I'm surprised they didn't start with Vegas or Orlando as initial desitnations. Far more popular than Tucson. Just like we lost a simple direct flight on Avelo Air from Tucson to Hollywood. That lasted a month. All Tucson can offer are tacos and trails. Most will want a little entertainment thrown into the mix which Tucson doesn't provide.

Absolutely true one can hope though.
If I remember correctly this is a multi year deal made with the airline for TIA to be there winter hub. so while all these smaller cities may not work I’m hoping Edmonton will & maybe a Toronto and Vancouver winter seasonal flight works out.



Tucson really needs to learn to support our local airport and not take the drive up to Phoenix it’s so stupid that we do that we lose about 1 million passengers a year which in essence causes us to miss out on better nonstops.

Also go check out the Buckmaster show, yesterday Buckmaster had Dave Hatfield from Tucson Airport authority explaining all the current news about the Canadian flaire routes and why we’re not getting a Mexican flight anytime soon. Also he updated us on some of the domestic routes that have seen some cuts this year. However he didn’t add anything about future new nonstop routes. hopefully better news in September on the next quarterly report.

[AZ71]

Absolutely true one can hope though.
If I remember correctly this is a multi year deal made with the airline for TIA to be there winter hub. so while all these smaller cities may not work I’m hoping Edmonton will & maybe a Toronto and Vancouver winter seasonal flight works out.



Tucson really needs to learn to support our local airport and not take the drive up to Phoenix it’s so stupid that we do that we lose about 1 million passengers a year which in essence causes us to miss out on better nonstops.

Also go check out the Buckmaster show, yesterday Buckmaster had Dave Hatfield from Tucson Airport authority explaining all the current news about the Canadian flaire routes and why we’re not getting a Mexican flight anytime soon. Also he updated us on some of the domestic routes that have seen some cuts this year. However he didn’t add anything about future new nonstop routes. hopefully better news in September on the next quarterly report.

I previously listened to the Buckmaster show too. I just dont think Tucson is mobile enough or wealthy enough for people to be flying all over. Phx is 4x as big as we are and 100x more businesses. Tucson will always be a quick vacation town or a town where you visit your parents. Unless we can change the things offered here...or get some more younger, youthful business or entertainment...there will never be enough ridership to sustain them.

[Patrick S]

I previously listened to the Buckmaster show too. I just dont think Tucson is mobile enough or wealthy enough for people to be flying all over. Phx is 4x as big as we are and 100x more businesses. Tucson will always be a quick vacation town or a town where you visit your parents. Unless we can change the things offered here...or get some more younger, youthful business or entertainment...there will never be enough ridership to sustain them.
I took a new position with my job recently that has me traveling weekly. I have been mainly using American and I will say that my weekly flights from Tucson to Dallas (then elsewhere) and back from Dallas are usually booked solid - one or two extra seats if any. This includes flights early morning, mid morning, afternoon, and evening. Also flown SW through (or to & from) Denver and those were full too.

That being said, after 13 and a half years here I'm moving back to the midwest and will become one of those people who only come back to visit in-laws. I love Tucson but it's time to move back home.

[AZ71]

I took a new position with my job recently that has me traveling weekly. I have been mainly using American and I will say that my weekly flights from Tucson to Dallas (then elsewhere) and back from Dallas are usually booked solid - one or two extra seats if any. This includes flights early morning, mid morning, afternoon, and evening. Also flown SW through (or to & from) Denver and those were full too.

That being said, after 13 and a half years here I'm moving back to the midwest and will become one of those people who only come back to visit in-laws. I love Tucson but it's time to move back home.

Tucson is a transitory city. I dont think there is enough opportunity for people to stay. I'll admit. I'm a native and as soon as I graduated college I left. But family/parent health issues had me return. But honestly, I dont know for how long. Once they're gone I'm not sure there is enough to keep me here. Especially now that home prices are so high. I'd love to own my own place but I cant see spending 300-400k now as a median home price in Tucson. Good luck to your midwest hometown.

[andrewsaturn]

I took a new position with my job recently that has me traveling weekly. I have been mainly using American and I will say that my weekly flights from Tucson to Dallas (then elsewhere) and back from Dallas are usually booked solid - one or two extra seats if any. This includes flights early morning, mid morning, afternoon, and evening. Also flown SW through (or to & from) Denver and those were full too.

That being said, after 13 and a half years here I'm moving back to the midwest and will become one of those people who only come back to visit in-laws. I love Tucson but it's time to move back home.

Good luck on your move back to your hometown. I travel as well for work and flights are usually full coming into and out of TIA. I'm a Tucson native so this will always be home and I'm committed to advocating and supporting Tucson whether it be from afar or when I'm in town. I plan on being here forever as my family paid off our house and I want to keep it!

[andrewsaturn]

The Reid Park Zoo expansion phase one "Pathway to Asia" design is finalizing by the end of June according to the Zoo's blog site. As you know, after community input, the Zoo will be expanding into the current parking lot and east portion of the Zoo instead of the SW portion where duck pond 1 sits. Construction of the new parking lot will commence first and "The parking lot would be an early delivery item with construction to start in February 2023 and completion in July 2023. Pathway to Asia would be complete in April 2025."

https://i.imgur.com/flIorzt.png

https://i.imgur.com/hUZVc1q.png


https://reidparkzoo.org/future/what-is-happening-at-reid-park/
https://reidparkzoo.org/future/parking-lot/

[ZonaRealtor2021]

I took a new position with my job recently that has me traveling weekly. I have been mainly using American and I will say that my weekly flights from Tucson to Dallas (then elsewhere) and back from Dallas are usually booked solid - one or two extra seats if any. This includes flights early morning, mid morning, afternoon, and evening. Also flown SW through (or to & from) Denver and those were full too.

That being said, after 13 and a half years here I'm moving back to the midwest and will become one of those people who only come back to visit in-laws. I love Tucson but it's time to move back home.

Well congratulations on moving back home Tucson will definitely miss you and so with this thread looking forward to your commentary the next time you come back into town and you notice the differences good or bad within the city.

What will you miss the most about Tucson?

[somethingfast]

What will you miss the most about Tucson?

I had to leave Tucson last back in 2007. I visit every few years and I can answer this question quite emphatically: the real deal Sonoran mexican food!!! :cheers:

[Patrick S]

I had to leave Tucson last back in 2007. I visit every few years and I can answer this question quite emphatically: the real deal Sonoran mexican food!!! :cheers:
The warm weather in winter and of course the real Sonoran Mexican food.

[andrewsaturn]

Ugly but Honest Pizza in the 5 Points Neighborhood concept.

https://i.imgur.com/qfIj44P.png

https://i.imgur.com/32g1q8b.png

https://i.imgur.com/51UMGCr.png

https://i.imgur.com/wQ2nqW8.png

https://i.imgur.com/ImOdIgX.png

[southtucsonboy77]

I would have taken a picture, but sharing images here is a pain. Good news is the Opus appeared to be underway and under construction.

[AZ71]

I would have taken a picture, but sharing images here is a pain. Good news is the Opus appeared to be underway and under construction.

What are you seeing there? Are you seeing some height built? I've tried contacting the Opus developer as well as the city to see if the plans have changed in the past 3 years from the original 13-story structure, but no one is responding. All I can find is a letter from a construction crew confirming the parcels are PAD 33 zoned and that letter was in June '22. So its an odd document. Makes me think all new people are involved. And The Opus Group still doesn't have this building listed on their website as under development.

[crzyabe]

What are you seeing there? Are you seeing some height built? I've tried contacting the Opus developer as well as the city to see if the plans have changed in the past 3 years from the original 13-story structure, but no one is responding. All I can find is a letter from a construction crew confirming the parcels are PAD 33 zoned and that letter was in June '22. So its an odd document. Makes me think all new people are involved. And The Opus Group still doesn't have this building listed on their website as under development.

I saw this construction site this weekend as well. The signs do say "Opus" on them. I was surprised, as I thought this development was stuck in limbo. It will be welcomed density if the plans are the same as previously submitted

EDIT: - Looks like the issued permit for the site (May 22) states the building will be 13 stories

[AZ71]

I saw this construction site this weekend as well. The signs do say "Opus" on them. I was surprised, as I thought this development was stuck in limbo. It will be welcomed density if the plans are the same as previously submitted

EDIT: - Looks like the issued permit for the site (May 22) states the building will be 13 stories

Where are you finding these May 22nd permits. All I find are the June 22 PAD letter.

[southtucsonboy77]

There’s a Zoning Letter, dated June 16th, 2022, that refers to the project as a “redevelopment proposal for a 13-story mixed use development…”

A bit of Permit activity going on recently.

[andrewsaturn]

Decided to take a few pics recently

https://i.imgur.com/8gr55sd.png

https://i.imgur.com/IGLFu1j.png

[andrewsaturn]

Some activity on the Opus site on 4th Ave

https://i.imgur.com/ymtYCgs.png

https://i.imgur.com/jlxqUvT.png

[andrewsaturn]

Progress on the Downtown Links connection from Aviation/Broadway to Stone and finally to I-10.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nb3B3_gO5w8

PCC's downtown campus new Advanced Manufacturing building fly-through

https://tucson.com/business/watch-now-pima-community-college-advanced-manufacturing-building-takes-shape/video_29b6d93c-6573-54f7-8c60-02cb680fe903.html?utm_campaign=snd-autopilot&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter_TucsonStar

Also completed is their new Automotive center downtown and Aviation campus

https://i.imgur.com/LOjZHjE.png
https://i.imgur.com/wOtMuwh.png
https://i.imgur.com/ESRVAXh.png

[somethingfast]

can someone here summarize what this Opus project is?

[AZ71]

can someone here summarize what this Opus project is?

This is a good link to the project as proposed back in 2019. I cant seem to get confirmation on what is happening down there now is this exact same project with the same permimeters.

https://www.tucsonaz.gov/files/pdsd/31531_Tucson_SH_-_4th_Ave_11x17_Package_2019_10_8.pdf

[somethingfast]

thanks for providing that. i usually like Opus projects but this looks pretty uninviting in those renderings. very government/institutional in aesthetic. maybe the final product will be a bit more lively. anything with some height and massing in Tucson is a good thing though.

[InTheBurbs]

This is a good link to the project as proposed back in 2019. I cant seem to get confirmation on what is happening down there now is this exact same project with the same permimeters.

I found this description from Opus on Linkedin:
Opus Tucson is a mixed-use Project located on the 4th Avenue Culinary Corridor in Downtown Tucson, AZ. Opus Tucson will feature 323 multifamily units and 4,971 square feet of retail space within one 13-story concrete and steel building. There will be a total of 261 garage parking spaces, giving the Project a ratio of 0.71 parking stalls per unit. The Project will offer a unit mix of studios, one-bed units, two-bed units, three-bed units, and four-bed units at a weighted average unit size of 900 SF. The Project will have street frontage on the south end of the corridor and will feature a rooftop amenity lounge and pool that fronts the 4th Ave Corridor.

With four bedrooms they have to be going after the student crowd in some form.

[InTheBurbs]

thanks for providing that. i usually like Opus projects but this looks pretty uninviting in those renderings. very government/institutional in aesthetic. maybe the final product will be a bit more lively. anything with some height and massing in Tucson is a good thing though.

Agreed. Hopefully the final product will look better than the initial renderings. This is nice height, but looks almost too massive - as you said very institutional. It seems that it needs something to break up the facade - bigger windows, more balconies, more color, more texture (maybe some brick?), something.

[bthom3000]

So a while back I saw a master plan for development along houghton from Valencia north to Irvington. I can’t find it through my typical searches. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

[AZ71]

I found this description from Opus on Linkedin:


With four bedrooms they have to be going after the student crowd in some form.

Couldn't find that LinkedIn description of it...but what you cited is almost exactly the specs of the original 2019 project link above. I guess they consider this huge thing all "one" building. I'm ok with it. At least we're building and creating housing. But I believe its still aimed at market-rate apts. Not student housing.

[AZ71]

So a while back I saw a master plan for development along houghton from Valencia north to Irvington. I can’t find it through my typical searches. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

It was/is called Saguaro Trails and is basically a home development of mostly Mattamy homes and I think some other home builders might be adding into it. It's been in development for awhile. The whole region is growing rapidly with the widening of Houghton and TMC has built a hospital there at Drexel. There are also thoughts of extending Harrison Rd from Irvington to Valencia too right along the Harrison Greenway bike path.

https://www.tucsonaz.gov/files/pdsd/rezoning/C9-16-09_Saguaro_Trails_PAD_-_Houghton_Road_Ward_4.pdf

[andrewsaturn]

I was only able to listen to some parts of the RN meeting yesterday 7/26 so I think I got a couple of the more significant news to share.

-Shot in the dark vacant space is being proposed into a multi-faucet business plan that includes a gift and flora shop, meeting space, and marketing firm space.

https://i.imgur.com/Muxb2Ax.png

- The Bautista on the West side is going to start construction! They expect to break ground in the next 30 days. It will be a $100M+ apartment, retail, restaurant project that will include riverbank enhancements along the Santa Cruz River.

https://i.imgur.com/afc7MgU.png
https://i.imgur.com/Ae7BsI9.png
https://i.imgur.com/GoBSMqa.png
https://i.imgur.com/2jFyYIQ.png
https://i.imgur.com/eomwmgV.png

(Images are from previous meetings with the city and RN)

[andrewsaturn]

RN board meeting today:

- Spoke briefly on Empire Pizza and Pub but decided to wait until next month to give more details regarding the expansion in the former space Hydra occupied. They say the owners are currently working with architects.

- They have $100k (was $500K) reserved for HBO just in case they decide to film in Tucson again but waiting on HBO to officially give notice which they haven't heard anything. They apparently still have things in warehouse here. ICYMI, HBO series called Duster was filmed in Tucson from Sep-Nov 2021 but ultimately moved to New Mexico.

-Batch on congress is currently expanding into it's basement and will add a bar. They also want to add a bottle shop next door which is currently occupied by MEB.
https://i.imgur.com/xxHxVt9.png
https://i.imgur.com/Tx4Yo9t.png

-RN is hiring Crown Castle to add 5G/6G network capabilities to the TCC. According to RN, Crown Castle is a $90B company specializing in communication infrastructure.

-Side note: L offices which occupy the 2nd floor of the old Chicago Music store, hosts dozens of small businesses as pop up shops that haven't decided to move into their own space but want a small space to test the waters. So if you are thinking about your own small business ideas, contact them!

https://i.imgur.com/9vZ3g5i.png
https://i.imgur.com/wtd3kIB.png

[southtucsonboy77]

https://www.opus-group.com/Work/Tucson-Fourth-Avenue-Apartments

The Opus page on the 13-story 4th Ave. project…June 2024 completion date.

[Locofresh55]

https://www.opus-group.com/Work/Tucson-Fourth-Avenue-Apartments

The Opus page on the 13-story 4th Ave. project…June 2024 completion date.

This building looks bland. Considering it is right on 4th Ave, I would have liked some more color at least a different color trim. Nice to see height right at the entrance to 4th ave but dang this is so bland. I look at other buildings like Union on 6th and District on 5th and they have some color to stand out and then you look at the shops and see vibrant and uniqueness that makes 4th ave popular, that is what draws people to that area (that and the crazy drugged out folks wandering the streets).

I hope at the least, the retail area will be fixed up some because as of now, this looks nothing special.

NOTE - I understand this is a rendering and it could change, but this is a primo spot so IMO this shouldn't be some underwhelming.

[AZ71]

This building looks bland. Considering it is right on 4th Ave, I would have liked some more color at least a different color trim. Nice to see height right at the entrance to 4th ave but dang this is so bland. I look at other buildings like Union on 6th and District on 5th and they have some color to stand out and then you look at the shops and see vibrant and uniqueness that makes 4th ave popular, that is what draws people to that area (that and the crazy drugged out folks wandering the streets).

I hope at the least, the retail area will be fixed up some because as of now, this looks nothing special.

NOTE - I understand this is a rendering and it could change, but this is a primo spot so IMO this shouldn't be some underwhelming.

I'm just happy the project is back on after its long delay. And I'm happy it's still 13 stories. It could have just been a 5-7 story structure like all the other ones. I will agree...new structures are lacking design appeal but that seems be the trend everywhere. Unimaginative buildings.

[InTheBurbs]

I'm just happy the project is back on after its long delay. And I'm happy it's still 13 stories.

Has anyone heard about the actual height? Will this likely be the fourth tallest building downtown? And yes, I'm considering this downtown - a block away is close enough. Let's take the win :)

At least at 13 stories it will add some balance on the east end to the rest bunched up on Stone/Church.

Now if they could just get something substantial going at 75 East.

[andrewsaturn]

Their other projects look just as bland but it looks like there's going to be a mural on the building south facing, so there's that. :shrug:

https://i.imgur.com/3qqxbg3.png

It says it will be completed in June 2024 which should be in conjunction with the completion of the Aviation extension road project.

[Locofresh55]

Their other projects look just as bland but it looks like there's going to be a mural on the building south facing, so there's that. :shrug:

https://i.imgur.com/3qqxbg3.png

It says it will be completed in June 2024 which should be in conjunction with the completion of the Aviation extension road project.


I hope the mural is vibrant and colorful. Tucson has some outstanding murals and again, this is the mural that will welcome visitors coming from downtown into 4th Ave so it needs to standout for sure. Maybe the renderings don't do the building justice and it will be great once built. My main thing is that 4th Ave is so unique and part of the uniqueness would be the various colored buildings. Fingers crossed this building will compliment the area.

[AZ71]

Has anyone heard about the actual height? Will this likely be the fourth tallest building downtown? And yes, I'm considering this downtown - a block away is close enough. Let's take the win :)

At least at 13 stories it will add some balance on the east end to the rest bunched up on Stone/Church.

Now if they could just get something substantial going at 75 East.

No. Not even close. Its estimated to be between 110-160 ft max. (Maybe dependent on A/C units on the top?) But it should be roughly the same size as the Sol by UofA and all those other student housing buildings. So that would put it in the 10th largest area. This really isn't that big. Its considered a mid-rise building. I think it will largely go unnoticed as a skyline feature...just like most of the government bldgs do downtown. Even the new TEP bldg downtown is a fairly tall mid-rise...but it really has no effect IMO.

[InTheBurbs]

Update on the Marriott hotel going into One South Church from tucson.com (https://tucson.com/news/local/subscriber/a-new-hotel-is-coming-to-tucsons-tallest-building/article_daf0a6a8-2ee5-11ed-8829-4bf8dfdc1e61.html#tracking-source=mp-homepage).

The Leo Kent (named after the developer's grandfather) will have 145 rooms on the first 9 floors, and include the St. Cruz, a restaurant/bar/lounge. It will be part of Marriott's Tribute brand.

Per Marriott, it will open in January:
https://www.marriott.com/hotels/travel/tustx-the-leo-kent-hotel-tucson-a-tribute-portfolio-hotel/

[Patrick S]

Hey all.

Checking in from Illinois. Hoping everyone is doing well. Ran into this online. I know it's not Tucson specific but ultimately will have an effect on Tucson. ADOT has a new webpage about Drafts for the Environmental Assessment and Design Concept Report for the widening of I-10 from Loop-202 in Phoenix down to north of Casa Grande. They're accepting comments through 10/9/22. I'm sure we've all traveled that stretch of highway numerous times and know how badly it needs upgrading. Looks like they're moving in that direction.

http://www.i10wildhorsepasscorridor.com/ (http://www.i10wildhorsepasscorridor.com/)

[InTheBurbs]

Shamrock Foods has bought 81 acres at The Crossroads at Gladden in Marana for a distribution center.

https://azbigmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Shamrock-Foods.jpg

The article also mentions that there are plans for retail, restaurants, and lodging at the corner of Tangerine and Clark Fams.

https://azbigmedia.com/real-estate/shamrock-foods-buys-81-acres-in-marana-for-distribution-center/

[Obadno]

Hey all.

Checking in from Illinois. Hoping everyone is doing well. Ran into this online. I know it's not Tucson specific but ultimately will have an effect on Tucson. ADOT has a new webpage about Drafts for the Environmental Assessment and Design Concept Report for the widening of I-10 from Loop-202 in Phoenix down to north of Casa Grande. They're accepting comments through 10/9/22. I'm sure we've all traveled that stretch of highway numerous times and know how badly it needs upgrading. Looks like they're moving in that direction.

http://www.i10wildhorsepasscorridor.com/ (http://www.i10wildhorsepasscorridor.com/)

Its already under construction between Downtown Phoenix and Wild Horse Pass!

[crzyabe]

Cities push to convert deserted office buildings into housing (https://www.axios.com/2022/09/28/office-buildings-housing-cities-work-downtown-reuse)

I think this is something we (Tucson) should be looking it. 75 E Broadway should have been residential above the street level retail.

[AZ71]

Cities push to convert deserted office buildings into housing (https://www.axios.com/2022/09/28/office-buildings-housing-cities-work-downtown-reuse)

I think this is something we (Tucson) should be looking it. 75 E Broadway should have been residential above the street level retail.

100% agree. The reason the deal fell through was because the financers back east pulled out right during covid because the Grade-A office space wasn't in demand anymore. I asked the developers why cant the property be converted into a mixed use retail over hotel/residential instead. They gave the excuse of permits and how its zoned. But now its done. The plot is back on the market through Pima County...and I'm not aware of any division of RN or the city trying to lure anything like that here.

[andrewsaturn]

Recent RN meeting summary:

https://realestatedaily-news.com/rio-nuevo-approves-investments-for-two-new-restaurants-and-340-n-6th-ave/

[andrewsaturn]

ICYMI:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dr5Wg30MqiU

Progress video of Downtown links. This includes a completed overpass on 6th ave. What’s left is the underpass at the railroad crossing at Stone and 6th st. where a deck plaza will be built as well.

[Ted Lyons]

Crane is up at Opus on 4th and the rebar is in place for the first floor columns. It’s weird to see massing that close to the street on that block since the Maloney’s building was set so far back. Lots of changes in that immediate area with that, the Corbett redevelopment, and the project at 6th and 6th coming online.

[kmiller5]

Crane is up at Opus on 4th and the rebar is in place for the first floor columns. It’s weird to see massing that close to the street on that block since the Maloney’s building was set so far back. Lots of changes in that immediate area with that, the Corbett redevelopment, and the project at 6th and 6th coming online.

What's going in at 6th and 6th? I haven't heard any news of a project there

[InTheBurbs]

What's going in at 6th and 6th? I haven't heard any news of a project there

Is this the project - Corner 66?

https://images1.loopnet.com/i2/UZQiRPLfo-6gZrM6_IjKGjcMYgR5mZ6ql1BYuyppP-g/112/501-509-N-6th-Ave-Tucson-AZ-1-Corner-1-HighDefinition.png

https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/501-509-N-6th-Ave-Tucson-AZ/25779718/

[Ted Lyons]

Is this the project - Corner 66?

https://images1.loopnet.com/i2/UZQiRPLfo-6gZrM6_IjKGjcMYgR5mZ6ql1BYuyppP-g/112/501-509-N-6th-Ave-Tucson-AZ-1-Corner-1-HighDefinition.png

https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/501-509-N-6th-Ave-Tucson-AZ/25779718/

Yes. The orange wing-shaped structure on the right is already in place.

[andrewsaturn]

RN meeting 10/25/22

- Fox theater :
Wants to expand into the former Bruegger's Bagel calling it the "Around the Corner Expansion". Saying they can and will make this project a reality. RN currently owns the theater but wants to return it to the trustees. The concept visuals are really eye popping for me. $21M Reno cost.
https://i.imgur.com/nu7NllR.png
https://i.imgur.com/LpORCPo.png
https://i.imgur.com/gjupTft.png
https://i.imgur.com/uZLBIoB.png
https://i.imgur.com/yQKcuWx.png
https://i.imgur.com/MZFYO8P.png

-Empire Pizza Expansion:

New total sq ft would be 4,399 ft. Total reno is $1M.
https://i.imgur.com/nfWfrRQ.png
https://i.imgur.com/Vmqw7M5.png

-Crescent Smoke Shop

RN will take over the lease and hopes to attract a tenet.

-Indian Trading Post

Owner wants to sell to RN and RN could solicit a partner to renovate it. However, RN wants to evaluate the building structure first for costs (if I understand that correctly.)

[Ted Lyons]

17-floor mixed use development proposed for the northern part of the former Nor-Gen lot. Developer is out of the Chicago area and looks legit. In front of the DRB on the 18th.

https://i.imgur.com/CTdsb7X.png

https://i.imgur.com/vWRTXJ6.png

https://i.imgur.com/ChSJ64S.png

https://i.imgur.com/tfc1rVH.png

[combusean]

Chicago developers like to build, I've noticed.

And that is one sweet looking tower.

[kmiller5]

On the corner of freeway and congress???

[Ted Lyons]

On the corner of freeway and congress???

Yup.

[InTheBurbs]

17-floor mixed use development proposed for the northern part of the former Nor-Gen lot. Developer is out of the Chicago area and looks legit. In front of the DRB on the 18th.

https://i.imgur.com/ChSJ64S.png



Yes Please.

Hopefully it won't get bogged down in complaints about it blocking the view of the freeway or being too tall for the Circle K across the street.

[Azstar]

Hate to be negative, but Tucson has a history of developers announcing big plans only to hightail it back out of town and abandoning their "projects" when they realize how high the risk is here.

[southtucsonboy77]

I believe there are some similar players from the Main Gate student housing projects, so hopefully that gives it a good chance to succeed. It would be awesome if that corner finally gets developed. I still don’t get the girth of these proposed buildings, but the architecture looks nice and 17 floors isn’t too shabby.

[andrewsaturn]

RN will discuss in executive session 75 E Broadway tomorrow but not in the public session. Anybody have an idea why?

[combusean]

Generally speaking, executive session is where the details of contracts, etc between government and private business get discussed. Open meetings are for the actual voting of the results of those negotiations.

[andrewsaturn]

RN Meeting 11/15/22 (Short meeting)

-Johnson Consulting firm says Tucson competitive market is comparable to El Paso, Spokane, and Fort Worth. They recommend RN to think about an Exhibit Hall for the gem show and for other indoor sporting events as a short term goal. Says RN has to be more proactive in the RN district master plan in the long term goals. RN says they know they have been more reactive and agrees they need to be more proactive. (We'll see..)

They mentioned a tiny bit about the Alan Norville parcel where the previous proposed exhibit hall was, saying that he keeps delaying or deferring development. Johnson Consulting basically said they need to do something about it.

We obviously don't know what is going on with that situation but Alan Norville still owns the arena site land or at least a portion of it. So whatever is happening, hopefully it can be dealt with soon.

[AZ71]

RN Meeting 11/15/22 (Short meeting)

-Johnson Consulting firm says Tucson competitive market is comparable to El Paso, Spokane, and Fort Worth. They recommend RN to think about an Exhibit Hall for the gem show and for other indoor sporting events as a short term goal. Says RN has to be more proactive in the RN district master plan in the long term goals. RN says they know they have been more reactive and agrees they need to be more proactive. (We'll see..)

They mentioned a tiny bit about the Alan Norville parcel where the previous proposed exhibit hall was, saying that he keeps delaying or deferring development. Johnson Consulting basically said they need to do something about it.

We obviously don't know what is going on with that situation but Alan Norville still owns the arena site land or at least a portion of it. So whatever is happening, hopefully it can be dealt with soon.

Does anyone know who owns the old El Paso & Southwestern Depot there around all that empty land. I know it used to be two restaurants. Carlos Murphy's and Garcia's. But those are closed. Does Alan Norville own this land & building too? This could be an amazing location for a museum, gallery or other public space.

[Ted Lyons]

We obviously don't know what is going on with that situation but Alan Norville still owns the arena site land or at least a portion of it. So whatever is happening, hopefully it can be dealt with soon.

He still owns the triangle-shaped parcel on the southeast corner. RN should now be in control of the entire linear portion to the west. Not sure about the train depot. Would be unfortunate if Norville owns it.

[Obadno]

Wow! First solid new skyline addition in quite a long time:cheers:

https://azbex.com/planning-development/17-story-high-rise-planned-in-downtown-tucson-gateway/

https://azbex.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/FP-PD-471-W-Congress-2-1024x576.png

The I-10 entryway to downtown Tucson may get a major skyline update with a planned 17-story multifamily and commercial development scheduled for a courtesy review before the Rio Nuevo Area Design Review Board this week.

471 W. Congress St. is currently an approximately 5.73-acre vacant lot at the SEC of West Congress Street and the South Freeway frontage road in the Rio Nuevo Area of the Downtown Infill Incentive Districts.

According to the plan submitted by developer UrbanStreet Group, “This Project is located at a key gateway to downtown Tucson from Interstate 10. The goal is to celebrate this entrance to downtown Tucson by constructing a signature building with landscaping and signage to create an entry feature announcing and celebrating this important gateway.”

Plans call for ground floor retail and restaurant space with 354 dwelling units on the floors above and an enclosed parking area with 459 spaces. The total area will be slightly more than 562KSF, and the total height is planned for 193’6” with rooftop mechanical components included. Maximum permitted height under the current zoning is 300 feet.

As noted in the submission, dwelling units will start with 10 units (9,443 rentable SF) on the third floor and increase to 23 units (20,245 RSF) on the fourth. Floors five through 16 will then have 26 units (21,998RSF/floor), and the 17th floor will have nine units (7,420RSF).

The concrete and glass design includes an extensive tenant amenity set, with a lobby lounge, a bike room and workshop space, storage lockers on each level, a business and party room, a fitness area, a rooftop pool deck with cooking spaces and a 17th floor outdoor deck.

Twenty-four-hour street level activity is one of the stated design standards for the development area. To that end, the submittal states: “We too would encourage as much street level activity as possible. This Property is unique in that the entire western boundary is I-10, which creates a separation between the east and west areas of downtown. The future Greenway connection will increase foot and bicycle traffic around the Property. The existing bus stop directly adjacent to the Property will also guarantee commuter traffic on Congress Street. Perhaps future projects in the development district could help to even further the promotion of activity around the site.”

The site is part of the Grant Road Investment District Urban Overlay District, which maintains existing zoning for properties while also allowing optional zoning to encourage development. Several properties and sites along Grant are vacant, and the road’s multi-phase improvement project has created several parcels that are irregularly shaped and not easily redeveloped under the existing zoning. The UOD is intended to provide enhanced development possibilities.

Among the elements incorporated into the GRID process are:

Reduced setbacks,
Parking relief with neighborhood protection factored in,
An enhanced pedestrian environment,
Transit connection support,
Taller buildings, and
Green infrastructure.
A major review under the GRID can take four-to-six months, according to the City’s information sheet. The required steps consist of:

A pre-application conference,
A neighborhood meeting,
A formal application submittal,
Application processing by the Planning and Development Services Department, which may include reviews and recommendations from the City Design Professional, City of Tucson Historic Commission, and the GRID Design Review Board, and
Decision issuance by PDSD.
The current project team is comprised of developer UrbanStreet Group LLC, design firm Antunovich Associates, landscape architects Novak Environmental and civil engineer Psomas. The project is represented by Lazarus & Silvyn.

The DRB meeting is scheduled for Nov. 18 at 7:30 a.m. The request is for a courtesy review, and no action will be taken.

[AZ71]

Wow! First solid new skyline addition in quite a long time:cheers:

https://azbex.com/planning-development/17-story-high-rise-planned-in-downtown-tucson-gateway/

https://azbex.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/FP-PD-471-W-Congress-2-1024x576.png

The I-10 entryway to downtown Tucson may get a major skyline update with a planned 17-story multifamily and commercial development scheduled for a courtesy review before the Rio Nuevo Area Design Review Board this week.

471 W. Congress St. is currently an approximately 5.73-acre vacant lot at the SEC of West Congress Street and the South Freeway frontage road in the Rio Nuevo Area of the Downtown Infill Incentive Districts.

According to the plan submitted by developer UrbanStreet Group, “This Project is located at a key gateway to downtown Tucson from Interstate 10. The goal is to celebrate this entrance to downtown Tucson by constructing a signature building with landscaping and signage to create an entry feature announcing and celebrating this important gateway.”

Plans call for ground floor retail and restaurant space with 354 dwelling units on the floors above and an enclosed parking area with 459 spaces. The total area will be slightly more than 562KSF, and the total height is planned for 193’6” with rooftop mechanical components included. Maximum permitted height under the current zoning is 300 feet.

As noted in the submission, dwelling units will start with 10 units (9,443 rentable SF) on the third floor and increase to 23 units (20,245 RSF) on the fourth. Floors five through 16 will then have 26 units (21,998RSF/floor), and the 17th floor will have nine units (7,420RSF).

The concrete and glass design includes an extensive tenant amenity set, with a lobby lounge, a bike room and workshop space, storage lockers on each level, a business and party room, a fitness area, a rooftop pool deck with cooking spaces and a 17th floor outdoor deck.

Twenty-four-hour street level activity is one of the stated design standards for the development area. To that end, the submittal states: “We too would encourage as much street level activity as possible. This Property is unique in that the entire western boundary is I-10, which creates a separation between the east and west areas of downtown. The future Greenway connection will increase foot and bicycle traffic around the Property. The existing bus stop directly adjacent to the Property will also guarantee commuter traffic on Congress Street. Perhaps future projects in the development district could help to even further the promotion of activity around the site.”

The site is part of the Grant Road Investment District Urban Overlay District, which maintains existing zoning for properties while also allowing optional zoning to encourage development. Several properties and sites along Grant are vacant, and the road’s multi-phase improvement project has created several parcels that are irregularly shaped and not easily redeveloped under the existing zoning. The UOD is intended to provide enhanced development possibilities.

Among the elements incorporated into the GRID process are:

Reduced setbacks,
Parking relief with neighborhood protection factored in,
An enhanced pedestrian environment,
Transit connection support,
Taller buildings, and
Green infrastructure.
A major review under the GRID can take four-to-six months, according to the City’s information sheet. The required steps consist of:

A pre-application conference,
A neighborhood meeting,
A formal application submittal,
Application processing by the Planning and Development Services Department, which may include reviews and recommendations from the City Design Professional, City of Tucson Historic Commission, and the GRID Design Review Board, and
Decision issuance by PDSD.
The current project team is comprised of developer UrbanStreet Group LLC, design firm Antunovich Associates, landscape architects Novak Environmental and civil engineer Psomas. The project is represented by Lazarus & Silvyn.

The DRB meeting is scheduled for Nov. 18 at 7:30 a.m. The request is for a courtesy review, and no action will be taken.

It's not going to change the skyline much. It's only 193 feet. It's smaller than the Tucson House on Drachman and the new Banner Hospital addition. Plus its location is downhill a bit from the proper downtown area where the other buildings are. One South Church is at an elevation of 2388ft. This new building is at 2356ft. So you're losing 36 feet in visual size too. So the illusion will be even smaller. You wont even see it from images of downtown looking west from an eastside vantage point. But the development is good for sure. It's just not going to change our skyline much.

[Eapiwo]

It's not going to change the skyline much. It's only 193 feet. It's smaller than the Tucson House on Drachman and the new Banner Hospital addition. Plus its location is downhill a bit from the proper downtown area where the other buildings are. One South Church is at an elevation of 2388ft. This new building is at 2356ft. So you're losing 36 feet in visual size too. So the illusion will be even smaller. You wont even see it from images of downtown looking west from an eastside vantage point. But the development is good for sure. It's just not going to change our skyline much.

I agree that it won't be the most game changing building to the skyline, but I think it'll still be a solid addition, the most solid addition in the last 40 years. It will be the 4th tallest building in that part of the city. Density of relatively tall buildings makes a skyline look better, even if the buildings aren't the tallest. Even the little low rises we've gotten in the last decade have helped with that a bit. Visually, IMO, downtown now looks less like an office park and more like a true neighborhood when looking at it from afar. It's even better when you're walking around downtown. It feel alive and is just genuinely a great place to be. This proposed building is in a pretty prominent location and will be visible by everyone on I-10 and the building's longest side will be facing Tumamoc Hill and Sentinel Peak, where a lot of the city's skyline pictures are taken. Entering downtown from Congress will really feel like you're in a real city when the lot that's been abandoned for decades is finally filled in.

I really like the trend that downtown's newer proposed buildings are increasing in height. The average floors for new buildings downtown seems to have gone from 4-5 about 8 years ago to 6-7, and now seems to be in the 10-17. That's a good trend that might eventually get us our new tallest(s) in the not so distant future. That indicates that the market supports the height. Having a market support building taller is the best case scenario for getting taller buildings (as opposed to putting a bunch of effort to building tall for the sake of it). If you look at Austin, Texas, their downtown went through the same sort of gradual change. Once the market started supporting building really tall buildings, it just kept pumping out new buildings. Between this proposal, the 13 story Opus project, and the 15 story Love Burger project, the skyline will be in really good shape.

Of course, the benefits these projects bring are much more than just height. IMO as I've looked around for apartments in Tucson, the city is just really lacking class A styled apartments. The nicest apartments in the metro seem to mostly be in Oro Valley, the foothills, and far east sides and require a good 30-40 minute drive to most employment centers. Downtown Tucson is an excellent place to build some of these projects as it's got rail and it's in the center of the metro. Other cities are building class A apartments like its nobody's business, and that may be helping them to attract new professionals. Phoenix seems to just be pumping out 200-300' tall apartments in the Roosevelt Row district lately with few signs of slowing. I wouldn't be surprised if Tucson follows suit and demand for these buildings continues. In fact, I'm more surprised that Tucson hasn't been. Looking ahead, I feel 75 Broadway would be an excellent place to put a new 300' tall residential tower.

Honestly, if Tucson built a few of these midrises and 2 or 3 towers that are in the 300-450' range, with the backdrop of the Rincons and Catalinas, we'd have one of the most pleasant looking skylines in North America. If we get 2-3k more apartments down there too, and made a plan to make street life a priority (wide sidewalks, trees, shade) then we'd have one of the most vibrant urban neighborhoods for cities our size.

[AZ71]

I agree that it won't be the most game changing building to the skyline, but I think it'll still be a solid addition, the most solid addition in the last 40 years. It will be the 4th tallest building in that part of the city. Density of relatively tall buildings makes a skyline look better, even if the buildings aren't the tallest. Even the little low rises we've gotten in the last decade have helped with that a bit. Visually, IMO, downtown now looks less like an office park and more like a true neighborhood when looking at it from afar. It's even better when you're walking around downtown. It feel alive and is just genuinely a great place to be. This proposed building is in a pretty prominent location and will be visible by everyone on I-10 and the building's longest side will be facing Tumamoc Hill and Sentinel Peak, where a lot of the city's skyline pictures are taken. Entering downtown from Congress will really feel like you're in a real city when the lot that's been abandoned for decades is finally filled in.

I really like the trend that downtown's newer proposed buildings are increasing in height. The average floors for new buildings downtown seems to have gone from 4-5 about 8 years ago to 6-7, and now seems to be in the 10-17. That's a good trend that might eventually get us our new tallest(s) in the not so distant future. That indicates that the market supports the height. Having a market support building taller is the best case scenario for getting taller buildings (as opposed to putting a bunch of effort to building tall for the sake of it). If you look at Austin, Texas, their downtown went through the same sort of gradual change. Once the market started supporting building really tall buildings, it just kept pumping out new buildings. Between this proposal, the 13 story Opus project, and the 15 story Love Burger project, the skyline will be in really good shape.

Of course, the benefits these projects bring are much more than just height. IMO as I've looked around for apartments in Tucson, the city is just really lacking class A styled apartments. The nicest apartments in the metro seem to mostly be in Oro Valley, the foothills, and far east sides and require a good 30-40 minute drive to most employment centers. Downtown Tucson is an excellent place to build some of these projects as it's got rail and it's in the center of the metro. Other cities are building class A apartments like its nobody's business, and that may be helping them to attract new professionals. Phoenix seems to just be pumping out 200-300' tall apartments in the Roosevelt Row district lately with few signs of slowing. I wouldn't be surprised if Tucson follows suit and demand for these buildings continues. In fact, I'm more surprised that Tucson hasn't been. Looking ahead, I feel 75 Broadway would be an excellent place to put a new 300' tall residential tower.

Honestly, if Tucson built a few of these midrises and 2 or 3 towers that are in the 300-450' range, with the backdrop of the Rincons and Catalinas, we'd have one of the most pleasant looking skylines in North America. If we get 2-3k more apartments down there too, and made a plan to make street life a priority (wide sidewalks, trees, shade) then we'd have one of the most vibrant urban neighborhoods for cities our size.

I agree with all you said. The problem is the direction of downtown. City officials and Rio Nuevo are really pushing office space downtown instead of residential towers. Why? I have no idea. But I hope they recalibrate their request for proposals. There were options on the table to change 75 E Broadway into a residential mixed-use after covid killed it...and and the developers said no. Covid killed the demand for office space. Phx ceased on it and built residential. Another problem that Rio Nuevo doesn't understand is businesses are building in various office parks. (The Bridges, UA Tech Park, Williams Centre, around Raytheon and east of airport). So they don't quite understand businesses that come to Tucson don't want to be downtown. I've even heard the Catepillar HQ we built for them is half empty.

Downtowns all over the country are becoming residential in nature with entertainment components with convention centers and gov't/city buildings. And many are including sporting venues in their core. Tucson has just refused to make that change. Once they do, I then think it will succeed.

Another big problem is we have a height cap. Its 300 ft. How One South Church was able to build to 330ft is beyond me. I think they built it and nimby's complained it was too tall so the city went in an capped the height at 300ft. So you'll never have a building taller unless they change that. People need to start complaining about this. I actually think its a hindrance. And downtown Tucson really doesn't have that many available plots that are open. They'd have to do some demolition of other buildings. But the smaller the parcel..the more likely they will go up. But they have to get rid of that 300 ft cap.

Granted...having a building on the westside will be nice from the freeway and looking east from the west. But again..the building isn't that big. But I do hope it will spur more development on that empty lot. (If Allan Norville will sell. He still owns it all. Thats why i wonder if this building will even happen being Nor-Gen's history of non-development).

But as for that area...I've proposed to many a pedestrian street with mixed-use retail, entertainment, restaurants/bars and residential on top of it all. Its a natural place for it since the hideous Flin replaced La Placita. Yes, La Placita was ugly, but it was the right concept for the area next to the TCC. Now convention center attendees really have no place to walk to eat or relax. They have to get up to the Congress area for options. It's an opportunity if the city and RN will cease on it. And convince Norville to continue to sell his land.

[Eapiwo]

But as for that area...I've proposed to many a pedestrian street with mixed-use retail, entertainment, restaurants/bars and residential on top of it all. Its a natural place for it since the hideous Flin replaced La Placita. Yes, La Placita was ugly, but it was the right concept for the area next to the TCC. Now convention center attendees really have no place to walk to eat or relax. They have to get up to the Congress area for options. It's an opportunity if the city and RN will cease on it. And convince Norville to continue to sell his land.

Yep! I agree with your post. I think the Norville site has so much potential to improve our city. There's enough bright minds in Tucson to come together and design something really remarkable for the community there. I'd love to see a really well designed pedestrian street there, but one with better planning than the La Placita site had. I'd love too, if the landscape design takes inspiration from the environment that had existed along the Santa Cruz River. Maybe there could be a way to build a shallow, reclaimed pond with room for cottonwood trees to return, and grow massive as they once had in that area, or allow a bit of a mesquite bosque to grow again. Even just planting a bunch of strategically placed palo verdes could create a beautiful, photogenic scene when they bloom, similar to Mexico City's Jacaranda trees.
Get some tall apartment buildings to surround the plaza or pedestrian street and you'd have a really awesome scene. That'd be the dream site to see be used to its maximum potential.

As for the city's height limits, I think the downtown core doesn't need any additional restrictions other than what Davis Monthan requires but it doesn't seem that anyone's contested them in 30 years so that might just be something the city deals with if anyone ever questions it.

[Obadno]

I didnt expect the Tucson forum to be more negative than the Phoenix forum :haha::(

[AZ71]

Does anyone know anything about the presentation to Rio Nuevo today (Friday, Nov 18) for this new Tucson Gateway project by the Chicago firm?

[omarainza]

Yep! I agree with your post. I think the Norville site has so much potential to improve our city. There's enough bright minds in Tucson to come together and design something really remarkable for the community there. I'd love to see a really well designed pedestrian street there, but one with better planning than the La Placita site had. I'd love too, if the landscape design takes inspiration from the environment that had existed along the Santa Cruz River. Maybe there could be a way to build a shallow, reclaimed pond with room for cottonwood trees to return, and grow massive as they once had in that area, or allow a bit of a mesquite bosque to grow again. Even just planting a bunch of strategically placed palo verdes could create a beautiful, photogenic scene when they bloom, similar to Mexico City's Jacaranda trees.
Get some tall apartment buildings to surround the plaza or pedestrian street and you'd have a really awesome scene. That'd be the dream site to see be used to its maximum potential.

i was just dreaming about this not too long ago. something along the lines of the friendship japanese garden in phoenix or battery park citys greenways. its a beautiful place for a nice botanic area that isnt crap (like TBG)

[andrewsaturn]

Does anyone know anything about the presentation to Rio Nuevo today (Friday, Nov 18) for this new Tucson Gateway project by the Chicago firm?

I think they had a meeting with the Tucson design and review board where they give recommendations for compliance with code but this particular meeting was just to learn about it without giving the recommendations.

There was one NIMBY resident who lives four blocks away at the beginning of the meeting that thinks the proposed development is not compliant with the height scale variation and that the materials used for the design which is glass and concrete is not within code as well. (A whole bunch of bologna).

Some additional renderings are provided as well in the meeting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teQs6GY_Q7w

[andrewsaturn]

https://i.imgur.com/tZzvqsg.png
Courtesy of ADS

In case you haven't noticed or been, The Landing (owned by Bourn Cos) on Tucson's SW side has burgeoned into a multi-retail center with tenants such as Planet Fitness, Chipotle, Eegees, Chick-fil-A, In-N-Out, Taco Bell, Krispy Creme, and Sprouts. Now under construction is an entertainment venue called Main Event, making it's first entry into the Tucson market. The 65 acre site is currently in development of a 3 story 200 apartment complex ranging from studio to 3 bedroom apartments. Opening date is Summer 2024. Expect more tenants to be announced for Phase 3.

All of this retail is located on the NW corner of I-19 and Irvington which doesn't include The Tucson Spectrum directly to the South. This portion includes Target, Home Depot, Harkins Theaters, and a new Steak house called the Hideout.

https://i.imgur.com/aBN3fhW.png
Courtesy of ADS
https://tucson.com/news/local/subscriber/200-apartments-entertainment-coming-to-tucsons-southwest-side/article_668ae1f0-53cc-11ed-9df1-db4da7ae5b6e.html

https://www.hcwdevelopment.com/project/tucson-landing-tucson-az

https://i.imgur.com/JDxaso8.png