Tucson Development Thread

[Azstar]

It's the annex, next to Chase Bank. Nothing else has been done on the Thrifty Block project. Per a new agreement with the City, developer is allowed to postpone construction several more times (after purchasing the property for $100 about 10 years ago).

This is from the Bourn website:

The Annex building design slices the middle third out of the solid facade to create a dramatic entry and presence. Inside, the floor plates are opened up in two places to create sky-lit light wells that bring light down through the three upper floors into the below-grade level. The existing concrete facade is further perforated with round windows at the north along with new sliding doors and balconies to the East to maximize natural light and view potential.

[Ted Lyons]

It's the annex, next to Chase Bank. Nothing else has been done on the Thrifty Block project. Per a new agreement with the City, developer is allowed to postpone construction several more times (after purchasing the property for $100 about 10 years ago).

This is from the Bourn website:

The Annex building design slices the middle third out of the solid facade to create a dramatic entry and presence. Inside, the floor plates are opened up in two places to create sky-lit light wells that bring light down through the three upper floors into the below-grade level. The existing concrete facade is further perforated with round windows at the north along with new sliding doors and balconies to the East to maximize natural light and view potential.

They did obtain an interior demo permit for the Trading Post building in September. I feel like someone on here mentioned that they saw some work going on there a few months back. Too lazy to search, though.

[Azstar]

They did obtain an interior demo permit for the Trading Post building in September. I feel like someone on here mentioned that they saw some work going on there a few months back. Too lazy to search, though.

I walk past that building every day. I've never seen any construction activity there, and from the outside the building looks exactly like it always did. I don't think anything has been done.

[Qwijib0]

Proposed Broadway widening maps are out

West Mile: http://www.tucsonaz.gov/files/projects/WEST-24x120_Refined_Alignment15.pdf

East Mile: http://www.tucsonaz.gov/files/projects/EAST-24x120_Refined_Alignment15.pdf

[crzyabe]

Proposed Broadway widening maps are out

West Mile: http://www.tucsonaz.gov/files/projects/WEST-24x120_Refined_Alignment15.pdf

East Mile: http://www.tucsonaz.gov/files/projects/EAST-24x120_Refined_Alignment15.pdf

I know that recently they talked about making the road wide enough to accomodate the Streetcar. I hope they kept that requirement in this plan. It would be nice if the Streetcar eventually ran East on Broadway to (at least) Alvernon.

[Qwijib0]

I know that recently they talked about making the road wide enough to accomodate the Streetcar. I hope they kept that requirement in this plan. It would be nice if the Streetcar eventually ran East on Broadway to (at least) Alvernon.

Pretty sure that the current thought is that added third lane could be repurposed for BRT and eventual streetcar use if traffic volumes hold. There's already a transit lane past country club so even if it's mixed-traffic to there afterward it would be have its own ROW, which sort of makes some sense because you would (in theory) have more density near downtown so the time between stops could remain consistent even if the distance between them was not.

[Ritarancher]

If the success of a downtown is measured by the amount of times Scarlett Johansson said "I love Downtown ________" during the Oscars then we're leading the nation.
http://m.tucson.com/entertainment/television/scarlett-johansson-loves-downtown-tucson/article_238d103a-bd6b-11e4-8c39-2fc749891baf.html?id=201408&mobile_touch=true

[ProfessorMole]

Some good news popped up on the business front out by the airport. HomeGoods wants to build their new 800,000 sq ft distribution center here. They are working with the city for a tax incentive agreement. It's on the slate at the meeting March 3rd. Listed to have 410 jobs at opening.

Mayor Council Memo (http://www.tucsonaz.gov/sirepub/cache/2/j2e5hdj1v4zbmx0m2y3onyos/673794802262015113946247.PDF)

[Ted Lyons]

Some good news popped up on the business front out by the airport. HomeGoods wants to build their new 800,000 sq ft distribution center here. They are working with the city for a tax incentive agreement. It's on the slate at the meeting March 3rd. Listed to have 410 jobs at opening.

Mayor Council Memo (http://www.tucsonaz.gov/sirepub/cache/2/j2e5hdj1v4zbmx0m2y3onyos/673794802262015113946247.PDF)

The Daily Star article from a week ago or so made it seem like it was a sure thing from the Home Goods side. Let's hope nothing crazy happens.

[Azstar]

Council person Ulich will probably insist they purchase more homeless pods as part of any deal.

[Patrick S]

Pretty sure that the current thought is that added third lane could be repurposed for BRT and eventual streetcar use if traffic volumes hold. There's already a transit lane past country club so even if it's mixed-traffic to there afterward it would be have its own ROW, which sort of makes some sense because you would (in theory) have more density near downtown so the time between stops could remain consistent even if the distance between them was not.
If they're going to eventually use the road for streetcar (or better yet Light Rail), I wish they'd just put the tracks in now. The last thing we need is to disrupt traffic and spend millions of dollars on a widening project for a couple years then turn around and do the same thing again 20 years (or less) down the road (pardon the pun). It will cost more now to do the rails than it would just to do the road, but it will save money in the long run over having to tear up the road, add the rails, and then have to rebuild the road.

[Ritarancher]

Council person Ulich will probably insist they purchase more homeless pods as part of any deal.

I see someone isn't getting my vote next election

[Ted Lyons]

If they're going to eventually use the road for streetcar (or better yet Light Rail), I wish they'd just put the tracks in now. The last thing we need is to disrupt traffic and spend millions of dollars on a widening project for a couple years then turn around and do the same thing again 20 years (or less) down the road (pardon the pun). It will cost more now to do the rails than it would just to do the road, but it will save money in the long run over having to tear up the road, add the rails, and then have to rebuild the road.

I think all of us here would prefer that, but that's not how Tucson voters think. Also, the third lane is meant to be dedicated to public transit the way the far right lane is further down Broadway so, theoretically, the only hassle would be that buses would have to travel in the other two lanes during construction.

[farmerk]

Although it's not as fast as I wanted to , glad the Old Pueblo is moving forward. Here's more stuff to ponder.

“opening up” 140 acres of industrial zones to mixed use, commercial or residential development in the downtown area. (http://www.tucsonaz.gov/files/ward1/Infil_Incentives.pdf) - from Council Babe Regina Romero.

The next phase that we'll begin to see is downtown becoming a real residential area, so more of that market rate housing....There are 3.3 million square feet of under-developed land, and many vacant properties (https://originals.azpm.org/p/on-metroweek/2015/2/6/56114-metro-week-analyzing-downtown-tucson-redevelopment-progress/)

EDIT: Eventually the modern street car or a light rail will eventually pass through Broadway Rd. I see a lawsuit coming that will force the city to add another lane or two for railway. IT WILL HAPPEN.

[Azstar]

Although it's not as fast as I wanted to , glad the Old Pueblo is moving forward. Here's more stuff to ponder.

“opening up” 140 acres of industrial zones to mixed use, commercial or residential development in the downtown area. (http://www.tucsonaz.gov/files/ward1/Infil_Incentives.pdf) - from Council Babe Regina Romero.

The next phase that we'll begin to see is downtown becoming a real residential area, so more of that market rate housing....There are 3.3 million square feet of under-developed land, and many vacant properties (https://originals.azpm.org/p/on-metroweek/2015/2/6/56114-metro-week-analyzing-downtown-tucson-redevelopment-progress/)



Karen Uhlich will make sure that most of it is used for homeless pods.

[Thirsty]

Karen Uhlich will make sure that most of it is used for homeless pods.

Thanks again for the productive input.

[Thirsty]

Proposal to end downtown's "protest against homelessness" (http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/28254763/tucson-proposal-to-end-homeless-standoff)

The council will enact a new camping ordinance modeled after Denver in addition to finding somewhere out of the way for them to move the pods/tents to.


In other Tucson sort-of-news:

Will Forte's new show "Last Man on Earth" premiered on FOX last weekend. It is set in Tucson but I'm not sure where it was filmed. Lots of really really really BAD fake Saguaros by the set dressers. :shrug:

Anyhow, free on Hulu (no subscription required) for now anyway. I thought it was hilarious, can't wait for the next two episodes.

http://static01.nyt.com/images/2015/02/28/arts/28LASTMAN/28LASTMAN-articleLarge.jpg

[InTheBurbs]

County approves $6.6 million for Hughes Access/Aerospace Parkway

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/tucson.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/d/b8/db847a7a-44ca-55ac-b4c5-1842660d884c/54f52cd716953.image.jpg

http://tucson.com/news/local/county-approves-million-for-hughes-access-road (http://tucson.com/news/local/county-approves-million-for-hughes-access-road/article_5aa8071c-b80e-579f-ae52-302cb00cba67.html)

[ppdd]

Proposal to end downtown's "protest against homelessness" (http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/28254763/tucson-proposal-to-end-homeless-standoff)

The council will enact a new camping ordinance modeled after Denver in addition to finding somewhere out of the way for them to move the pods/tents to.


In other Tucson sort-of-news:

Will Forte's new show "Last Man on Earth" premiered on FOX last weekend. It is set in Tucson but I'm not sure where it was filmed. Lots of really really really BAD fake Saguaros by the set dressers. :shrug:

Anyhow, free on Hulu (no subscription required) for now anyway. I thought it was hilarious, can't wait for the next two episodes.

http://static01.nyt.com/images/2015/02/28/arts/28LASTMAN/28LASTMAN-articleLarge.jpg

I did enjoy the show, though it pains me to see another show set in "Tucson" that is not shot here, thanks to our inability to pass film tax credits that are in place in many other states.

[Qwijib0]

County approves $6.6 million for Hughes Access/Aerospace Parkway

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/tucson.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/d/b8/db847a7a-44ca-55ac-b4c5-1842660d884c/54f52cd716953.image.jpg

http://tucson.com/news/local/county-approves-million-for-hughes-access-road (http://tucson.com/news/local/county-approves-million-for-hughes-access-road/article_5aa8071c-b80e-579f-ae52-302cb00cba67.html)


http://i.imgur.com/kd7pNVR.png

Kind of a weird alignment on the east end, Don't see any weird-shaped parcels in GIS that would require that point unless that's extra buffer for an eventual additional runway at TIA

[InTheBurbs]

Kind of a weird alignment on the east end, Don't see any weird-shaped parcels in GIS that would require that point unless that's extra buffer for an eventual additional runway at TIA

Could that southeast jag eventually connect the parkway to the proposed east end of I-11?

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/tucson.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/e/a9/ea9a5526-e1c5-11e2-9aea-001a4bcf887a/51d098c63b6fc.preview-620.jpg

[combusean]

That southeast jag is really bad. Shoving traffic to go north on I 19, then have to exit a few miles later, go parallel a couple miles west and merge back in with I-10 just seems like the recipe for a redundant traffic disaster.

[crzyabe]

I am curious about the 22nd Street View project. Now that the Gem Show is over, did that guy get his 40 units sold? I know in an article published early in the show he said he had sold less than 20. I think this project is interesting and I hope it goes forward.

[somethingfast]

could you imagine what this I-11 corridor would do for Tucson's transit problems if it took exactly the flip-side route going through eastern and northwest tucson then meeting up at I-10? makes too much sense for tucson. yeah, stupid...

[Leo the Dog]

I did enjoy the show, though it pains me to see another show set in "Tucson" that is not shot here, thanks to our inability to pass film tax credits that are in place in many other states.

Turns out Hollywood didn't have to go too far. It was filmed in the San Fernando Valley - Chatsworth, CA.

[Ritarancher]

UMC's new tower has been designed and is expected to break ground next year.
http://m.tucson.com/news/local/new-tower-planned-by-banner-umc-will-be-stories/article_c3616b40-50ab-5468-b5e7-dd5422b4cb43.html?id=201408&mobile_touch=true

[southtucsonboy77]

UMC's new tower has been designed and is expected to break ground next year.
http://m.tucson.com/news/local/new-tower-planned-by-banner-umc-will-be-stories/article_c3616b40-50ab-5468-b5e7-dd5422b4cb43.html?id=201408&mobile_touch=true

I love it. Too, it should help transition the neighboring proposed 20-story tower on Speedway/Campbell.

[Qwijib0]

could you imagine what this I-11 corridor would do for Tucson's transit problems if it took exactly the flip-side route going through eastern and northwest tucson then meeting up at I-10? makes too much sense for tucson. yeah, stupid...

About the only route you could take that would not completely destroy any continuity in the city would be that fantastical plan to use the rillito riverbed, and even that would be the worst thing. Otherwise you're bisecting neighborhoods.

[kaneui]

Reviewing the development pipeline since Banner Health's announcement of its $500+M renovation/addition to University Medical Center, six projects in the Main Gate/UMC area will have a significant impact on urban density there, adding to what is becoming a mini skyline near the UofA (and all of it TOD, since each project is within a few blocks of the streetcar):

1. The Hub at Tucson II (1023 N. Tyndall Ave. - student housing, 6 stories, spring 2015 construction start)
2. UA Bioscience Research Laboratories (Helen St. & Cherry Ave., 5+ stories, May 2015 construction start)
3. Residence Inn - UA (Tyndall Ave. & 2nd St., 14 stories, summer 2015 construction start)
4. Speedway & Campbell (10, 12 and 20-story mixed-use complex, awaiting rezoning to start construction)
5. Banner-UMC (1501 N. Campbell Ave., new 11-story tower, need rezoning before 2016 construction start)
6. Hotel Euclid (Euclid Ave. & 4th St., 6 stories, 4 structures being demo'd prior to construction)

Concurrently, another wave of streetcar TOD is slowly picking up speed on the west end of downtown, including the Thrifty block project (Bourn), the Arena Site project (Nor-Gen), and the acres of vacant parcels west of I-10, including the Mission District (Gadsden) and the proposed Tucson Origins Heritage Park (35 acres south of Cushing St.).

Also, HSL Properties is supposedly planning a renovation of the shuttered Hotel Arizona, with plans to be finalized in 30-60 days (with Bert Lopez' history, however, I wouldn't hold my breath):

http://azbex.com/hsl-engages-flurry-of-southern-arizona-projects/

[Ted Lyons]

Reviewing the development pipeline since Banner Health's announcement of its $500+M renovation/addition to University Medical Center, five additional projects in the Main Gate/UMC area will also have a significant impact on the urban density of the area, adding to what is becoming a mini skyline near the UofA (and all of it TOD, since each project is within a few blocks of the streetcar):

1. The Hub at Tucson II (1023 N. Tyndall Ave. - student housing, 6 stories, spring 2015 construction start)
2. UA Bioscience Research Laboratories (Helen St. & Cherry Ave., 5+ stories, May 2015 construction start)
3. Residence Inn - UA (Tyndall Ave. & 2nd St., 14 stories, summer 2015 construction start)
4. Speedway & Campbell (10, 12 and 20-story mixed-use complex, awaiting rezoning to start construction)
5. Banner-UMC (1501 N. Campbell Ave., new 11-story tower, need rezoning before 2016 construction start)
6. Hotel Euclid (Euclid Ave. & 4th St., 6 stories, 3 structures being demo'd prior to construction)

Concurrently, another wave of streetcar TOD is slowly picking up speed on the west end of downtown, including the Thrifty block project (Bourn), the Arena Site project (Nor-Gen), and the acres of vacant parcels west of I-10, including the Mission District (Gadsden) and the proposed Tucson Origins Heritage Park (35 acres south of Cushing St.).

I also read that HSL Properties is planning a renovation of downtown's Hotel Arizona, with plans to be finalized in 30-60 days (with Bert Lopez' history, however, I wouldn't hold your breath):

http://azbex.com/hsl-engages-flurry-of-southern-arizona-projects/

Thanks for the recent update to the development page. Saw a few renderings I hadn't seen before.

[southtucsonboy77]

I hope the renovation plans for the ol' Hotel Arizona will include a redevelopment of the corner parking lot.

[somethingfast]

Are there any renderings available for that project at Speedway/Campbell?

[farmerk]

Could that southeast jag eventually connect the parkway to the proposed east end of I-11?

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/tucson.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/e/a9/ea9a5526-e1c5-11e2-9aea-001a4bcf887a/51d098c63b6fc.preview-620.jpg

Love to see that I-11 cut through in the middle of Tucson.

Here's a freeway that's been in the works for 30 years and finally given a go. Tucson, there's hope. (http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/ahwatukee/2015/03/11/feds-give-green-light-south-mountain-freeway/70167914/)

[Patrick S]

Love to see that I-11 cut through in the middle of Tucson.

Here's a freeway that's been in the works for 30 years and finally given a go. Tucson, there's hope. (http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/ahwatukee/2015/03/11/feds-give-green-light-south-mountain-freeway/70167914/)
It's never going to happen, as unfortunately that shipped sailed a long time ago. It's unfeasible and cost prohibitive to build a cross-town freeway in Tucson now. Not to mention the fact that you would have to demolish a large swath of land in the heart of the city and displace thousands, if not tens-of-thousands, of people. I'd love to have a cross-town freeway, but unfortunately it's a pipe-dream. I do, however, hope that we can get I-11 to reach down into the metro area, just don't see how it going through the center of the city is a going to happen.

But, one thing that isn't, and is also desperately needed in Tucson, is expansion of existing freeway infrastructure. I-10 needs to be 3, if not 4, lanes to at least Houghton, and really 3 lanes to Vail. I-19 needs to be at least 3 lanes to (and again, you could argue 4 lanes) to at least San Javier Rd., and an argument can be made to expand it to 3 lanes to Sahuarita/Green Valley. I know it's coming, but lets finish widening I-10 all the way to the northern parts of Marana. And though it's not in Tucson, lets get all of I-10 from Phoenix to Tucson up to 3 lanes. That northern, 2 lane, stretch is brutal.

[somethingfast]

^^ I'm not going to argue the merits here but you are just patently wrong that it's "too late". Cost-prohibitive is a subject phrase. How do you think the Superstition Freeway and much of the Price Freeway and Squaw Peak in the Phoenix area were built? Eminent domain and displacement. "Tens of thousands" is also a very subjective and, I bet, highly inaccurate # as well. And there is a solution still staring the city square in the face: the Rillito. It was proposed and shot down back in the mid-80's. Again, look to Tempe for the solution. Portions of the Red Mountain are built on the Salt River. Now I'm not suggesting the this is the *right* answer but saying it's not possible is just untrue. Tucson doesn't want that particular solution.

[farmerk]

Thanks for the responses. I've been told that way back in the 70's and 80's, Phoenicians couldn't take it (heavy traffic) anymore, so they caved in with more freeways.

[soleri]

^^ I'm not going to argue the merits here but you are just patently wrong that it's "too late". Cost-prohibitive is a subject phrase. How do you think the Superstition Freeway and much of the Price Freeway and Squaw Peak in the Phoenix area were built? Eminent domain and displacement. "Tens of thousands" is also a very subjective and, I bet, highly inaccurate # as well. And there is a solution still staring the city square in the face: the Rillito. It was proposed and shot down back in the mid-80's. Again, look to Tempe for the solution. Portions of the Red Mountain are built on the Salt River. Now I'm not suggesting the this is the *right* answer but saying it's not possible is just untrue. Tucson doesn't want that particular solution.

It's been 40 years since people had a collective realization that destroying a city with freeways is probably not the wisest thing to do. We even had a word for it: Californication. Since then, the real-estate industrial complex in tandem with car dealers worked overtime selling people on this classic false solution. And here we are on an "urban" site buying the notion that more sprawl, more cars, less density, and less walkability are the solution to our drive-everywhere (sub)urban form.

Tucson needs another freeway like a fat person needs another Bacon Double Cheeseburger. 40 years ago, Tucson actually understood this. It's gone so unconscious since then that it's nearly comatose.

[somethingfast]

I respect your opinion. It's always thoughtful. But reality and fantasy are blurred lines. In a perfect world, nobody would own a car but would have tiny little pods that move on conveyor belts programmed by the Great Transit Cop In The Sky. I kid, obviously, but the point is that we always have to bridge the "correct" future with the "wrong" past by compromise. Tucson has roads, like it or not. Phoenix as well. I remember how bad Phoenix traffic was in 1993 prior to the opening of the first real significant loop element -- the Price Freeway. From 1994 through 1999 (the last prolonged block I lived there) traffic got immeasurably better with the addition of the 101 and Red Mountain and then San Tan Freeways (later on). I lived there again recently -- 2012 to 2014 (big mistake...don't ever move for love!) -- and it's commute times are vastly better than similar metros (Washington, DC and Houston) that I also have experience in.

And it's chicken or egg on sprawl. Did Phoenix burst the seams *because* of cars and LA-like freeways? Or were the freeways built to accommodate the typical Arizona's maverick-like needs for space in and around themselves? The truth is somewhere between, as always.

As for Tucson, besides the economic morbidity that really has never changed since I was born there (in '72) and then raised there from 1980 to 1989 and then again a extended residence from 2000 to 2007. It's a town that's staunchly anti-everything. And despite that, it's grown. It's stretched itself with -- just a guess here but I'm bet I'm right -- a likely lower overall density than Phoenix (cities and county). So being anti-growth and believing intrinsically or extrinsically in urbanity does not make either one so. Smart planning and concessions to a desired quality of life do.

For the record, I'd rather live in Tucson because it is a far more unique and quirky town than Phoenix (bland and not aging well...thought it was the ultimate supersauce back in '93 though!) however you can't make much of a living there. It's one of those cities where you can almost bet that your kids will have it worse off than you if they don't leave. I hope that changes. I'd love to see it become the "Portland of the Southwest". But I doubt it. Maybe "Portland Lite" at best. Phoenix...well, it's reaching critical mass in a number of ways so its issues will self-correct (like LA) by nature. It will just be painful and extended. But the glory days when people moved there because of what used to be Arizona's selling points (sunshine -- but not extended drought! -- low cost of living and easy expression of rugged individualism) are pretty much over and never to return. Responsible growth and higher quality of life will be engineered very specifically. Or won't.

And hate to say it but all bets are off on any extended prosperity if the water situation doesn't change. I'm not convinced on climate change being as man-determined as the scientists say...although I'm definitely leaning more in their direction than not...but it's pretty clear that no matter the reason the drought situation is getting worse. Longer, hotter, drier summers (is there even a Spring or Fall anymore???) do not bode well for a quality of life that people expect anywhere. The West is reaching a tipping point on available long-term water solutions unless the drought situation ends. Period. Cities are starting to make meaningful changes...but will it be too little too late? Who knows. But a HUGE reason I don't think I'll ever call Arizona home again is simply because I'm afraid of a future with limited water and absurdly long summers. I remember 8 to 10 really good monsoon storms growing up in Tucson in the 80's...it's down to like 2 or 3. Sad.

[soleri]

And it's chicken or egg on sprawl. Did Phoenix burst the seams *because* of cars and LA-like freeways? Or were the freeways built to accommodate the typical Arizona's maverick-like needs for space in and around themselves? The truth is somewhere between, as always.

For the record, I'd rather live in Tucson because it is a far more unique and quirky town than Phoenix (bland and not again well...thought it was the ultimate supersauce back in '93 though) however you can't make much of a living there. It's one of those cities where you can almost bet that your kids will have it worse off than you if they don't leave. I hope that changes. I'd love to see it become the "Portland of the Southwest". But I doubt it. Maybe "Portland Lite" at best.

Yes, Phoenix burst at the seams with cars. If you're an urbanophile, Phoenix is probably one of the worst large cities on Earth. There is not one single walkable neighborhood in that city. This is what Tucson wants to be? Fer crissakes, why?

Freeways came relatively late to Phoenix, but when they did, the metastatic sprawl immediately jumped from stage 2 to stage 4. This is what will happen to Tucson if you fall for the siren song of "traffic relief". What it does, in fact, is opens up a lot more territory to far-flung subdivisions and that entire catastrophe that Phoenix exemplifies. In Los Angeles, people commonly endure two hour commutes to get to worked on its world-class system of freeways. "Induced demand" is the name we give to this paradox: build more freeways to facilitate better traffic flow, which then means more single-family housing built on the periphery while the inner city languishes.

Who wants freeways really, really bad? People like Jim Click who make their money off the cities they actually despise. Or land speculators like Don Diamond who make their money turning one of the world's most enchanting topographies into a nightmarish cartoon-scape that's looks like Anyplace USA. Tucson is never going to be Portland-Lite. That dream died in the 1970s. But it doesn't have to pretend that traffic jams are worse than a city no one even cares about. This is why Phoenix should be a cautionary tale about what NOT to do. People who live there love their houses, their swimming pools, their cars, and their lifestyles. But do they love their city? If so, where does this love show its face? The nice parts of Phoenix are nice but the city is utterly devoid of urban magic and always will be. They can't - and won't - retrofit sprawl. It's impossible.

I live in Portland now and I love it. 40 years ago, Portland said no to Californication. It turned its focus inward instead of outward. It built great transit and established a strong urban growth boundary to check sprawl. This took enormous discipline and patience because the forces of greed are always present. They still are, in fact. Angry Republicans are always railing against evil Portland with its skyscrapers, density, and hippies. They want Portland to be more like Phoenix, even though Portland is the economic engine that pulls up all of Oregon.

Tucson really needs a committed cadre of urban warriors fighting with bloody claws the Jim Clicks and Don Diamonds. In my heart of hearts, I know it's too late. But if you really love the quirky Tucson and not the generic sprawl-crud it's become, you're fight the good fight anyway.

[somethingfast]

Again, I appreciate your passionate stance. And I mostly agree with it. Not really arguing at all. I visited Portland in 2007 and absolutely loved it. This was the summer so it was perfect. I can definitely see the attraction. And I disagree that it's too late for Tucson to become a Portland Lite at all. Very possible. It already is in spirit. It just doesn't have the pockets any more than Portland can compare itself to Seattle. But they are all very similar in spirit...i.e. the desire to not be defined by anyone else. Tucson is just too steadfast to the point of cutting off its nose to spite its face. It would rather be poor than compromise.

And I do have to completely disagree with you that there's any undue influence that the Jim Clicks and Don Diamonds are having on Tucson. If Jim Click (who is probably the richest Tucsonan) is clamoring for more road miles for his cars, it aint working. If anything, reactionaries that somehow keep zero progress from taking place yet somehow profiting greatly (Grijalva and Lopez, I'm talking here) are the real problem and hold all the sway.

Anyway, I find it alarming yet telling that, here we are, two people that are arguing passionately about Arizona and its future...are not there. And therein lies the problem. The passionate Arizonans must always flee otherwise the reality is too hard to take. So much apathy. So little opportunity. The endless boom and bust cycles. The endless summers that seem to be getting ever-longer and hotter. And no answers. Nobody wants answers. They move there (not as much as they used to, mind you) and they keep their allegiances to the Yankees and Cowboys and Lakers and want their cake and the ability to eat it too. Low home prices. No high tax rates. Giant pools and lush green lawns...in the desert no less! Two thirds of all Phoenicians and probably half of all Tucsonans since 1980 are, essentially, self-interested carpet baggers. The Arizona I remember in pretty much every conceivable way is....gone. It's a gutted carcass of what made it so special and unique.

But I don't think it's too late for Tucson. It still has a chance to preserve its identity and still grow economically and improve on the well-being of its citizens 20, 50 or 100 years from now. But it's got to make some compromises to do that. Its failure will be function of how irresponsibly it avoids that compromise, imo. It's never gonna be another Phoenix. Not even close. But does it want to be its own unique take on relative harmony between prosperity and cultural preservation a la Portland? Something worth aspiring to? It can't stay the road either. It has to take action. Sitting still will never get you where you need to be.

[soleri]

Somethingfast, I don't want to cause anyone who loves Tucson to give up. But if Phoenix is the bellwether, what will happen is that you'll simply be too emotionally depleted to care. I'm a Phoenix native and lived all my life there until 2013. What I noticed about myself was a flagging lack of interest in local affairs. I realized I didn't care because I didn't love Phoenix. After a lifetime there, I realized there wasn't a real city with wonderful buildings, amenities, and assets to love. There was just what it looks like to the naked eye - all the sprawl, the dreck, and absurdity of a city based not on love but on cheapness and warm weather. This is why people won't tax themselves to improve Arizona. Once it's all about you, your comfort, your house, your car, then you just check out all together. Phoenix shows in macrocosm the Tragedy of the Commons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

People who oppose freeways in Tucson are not reactionaries. They're visionaries in that they know what the outcomes are, the horror of a city not worth caring about since it's tailored to cars and not people. Jim Click is Tucson's Darth Vader (it's a cheap shot but our rhetoric needs to be sharp since there's not much time left).

We necessarily love the world the way it is, not the way we think it should be. If you're not loving Tucson for real reasons like its building stock and civic embellishments, you're not really loving the actual city. Most people who "love" Tucson don't really love it at all. They don't know its history, its literature, its tragedies and its triumphs. Most don't love its desert, its ghosts, its intimate niches or lovely decay. They're too self-involved to care and it shows. You're not going to improve Tucson by making it more like Phoenix. Just the opposite. You'll improve it by making it less like Phoenix.

[somethingfast]

Soleri, again, I don't think we disagree at all. I'm not suggesting that adding freeway miles is the only or best approach to dealing with Tucson's traffic problems. Perhaps the disagreement is that you don't feel there is a traffic issue at all. Perhaps you're right. I think most people would disagree. But I'm not sure there's a right answer short of data. If average commute times as computed against population were to reveal that Tucson's mean times are below average...then so be it. If otherwise, I'd suggest there's room for improvement. Anecdotally, I would think it's the latter situation for cities of comparable size.

But I digress. I have to say that your last couple of responses make me very sad. I agree 100% with what you're saying about the tragedy of the commons analogy and the reality about Phoenix and (possible) ambivalence in Tucson. I think the issue with Tucson really boils down to this: when you're having a tough time making a living, you don't think much about these issues. And I don't think Tucson is prosperous enough to where civic pride and related issues are driving the decisions so much as the desire to NOT be taxed further (NIMBY-ism, etc.). Phoenix, on the other hand, is, sadly, all appearance and no substance. It's LA without the water and the add'l legacy of 30 years of American prosperity behind it. They both resulted from the same driving forces of exploitation (TotCommons) in the grossest of ways and as soon as the hard times come, there's zero sense of community to get through the lean times. You simply leave. No investment in the land and buildings around you from the emotional stand-point.

I also agree that Phoenix is hopeless from this perspective. Time changes everything so who's to say what might happen in 20 or 50 or even 100 years' time? But there's certainly no short-term drivers to change the course of the metro right now. It's business as usual with the hope that housing will make a turnaround another boom cycle can commence. Doubtful. Wages are not rising and without rising wages or massive influx of free money (i.e., easy lending of the early 2000's) a true housing boom is never going to materialize and certainly not of the magnitude of the last few.

Here's what I do think Tucson AND Phoenix (more Tucson) could do to make some real impacts down the road to not only economic prosperity but to also preserve identity (more Tucson again):

1. Encourage development along the natural river beds and like Tempe Town Lake, trap/regulate the water that does flow naturally. More natural damning that is less damaging to the ecosystem (if necessary) is fine. The goal is simply to encourage a flowing river to a) re-create what the area looked like a hundred or more years ago for not only its aesthetic value but recreational as well, and b) re-charge groundwater.

Said development would naturally be followed and along the Santa Cruz portions near downtown, significant urban renewal (organically so) would probably ensue.

2. Don't repeat past mistakes. Never, ever build a ballpark out in the middle of nowhere. In other words, political reform is needed. You get what you ask for and all Tucson has asked for over the last half-century or more is political corruption which always benefits the few at the expense of the many. ENCOURAGE (yes, in bold, all caps) all significant civic investment in the downtown/UofA area. DT is taking flight (on a Tucson scale) but much more needs to be done. And can be. I don't know exactly how Rio Nuevo got so f**ed up but obviously that can't happen again. And no more ballparks in places nobody wants to go. Could you imagine if they had built TEP downtown where things could be right now? May have saved spring training and planted seeds that would be full-bloom by now. Sadly, we'll never know. But we do know what transpired that led to the mistakes. Don't repeat.

3. Truly massive investment in solar farms. Arizona should be the solar capital of the world, from electricity generation to PV innovation (and beyond). Yes, one of the biggest solar companies is based in Tempe (First Solar)...so much more should be happening to encourage solar investment tech in Arizona. Tucson and Phoenix could reap tremendous rewards. Cheap oil isn't going to last and climate stability necessitates wind and solar investments. Start now. Not a day later.

Okay, that's all I got top of the head. Is there hope? I think so. I hope so. I wish I could stay in Arizona and make a good living and count on monsoon thunderstorms and snowpacks in the winter in the mountains. Everything seems uncertain now. Much of what made Arizona Arizona seems to be gone or dying. I'm still rooting for my home state and home city. I still see me dying there one day. It's still home in my mind in so many ways. But all I see is the distant past now when I think of Arizona and Tucson and even Phoenix. It's nothing beyond 10 years ago at this point. And now I've officially bummed myself out and wasted a couple hours! Back to work...

Again, Soleri, always appreciate your thoughts and contributions! I don't add much to the forums but I always read. Excelsior...

[Patrick S]

^^ I'm not going to argue the merits here but you are just patently wrong that it's "too late". Cost-prohibitive is a subject phrase. How do you think the Superstition Freeway and much of the Price Freeway and Squaw Peak in the Phoenix area were built? Eminent domain and displacement. "Tens of thousands" is also a very subjective and, I bet, highly inaccurate # as well. And there is a solution still staring the city square in the face: the Rillito. It was proposed and shot down back in the mid-80's. Again, look to Tempe for the solution. Portions of the Red Mountain are built on the Salt River. Now I'm not suggesting the this is the *right* answer but saying it's not possible is just untrue. Tucson doesn't want that particular solution.
I'm all for having a crosstown freeway or a loop in this city. I think the time has passed for a crosstown freeway though. I've seen estimates that it would cost at least $100 Million a mile. That's too much money in this day and age when everyone wants to slash spending, and there's not enough to even maintain the infrastructure we have now. I think a loop would be better. I was simply saying that the idea of just putting a freeway across the center of town is not the best of ideas.

[somethingfast]

^^ I have to admit it, I just can't resist these Tucson discussions. The argument for or against a cross-town freeway is moot. It's never going to happen. It could cost $5/mile and it wouldn't happen. $100 million per mile, just for the sake of argument is probably high but it's not prohibitively so if it came out that high. When LA was brainstorming a way to expand I-10 around downtown back in the mid-90's a figure of $1 billion/mile came out as they would likely have needed some double-decker sections. Needless to say, it didn't happen. And neither will a cross-town in Tucson although it really does make all the sense in the world. Why? for one, it likely would not take much more real estate if you depressed it. Building on or near the Rillito would probably net you more per mile in cost. I'm not an engineer though but putting huge amounts of concrete over sand is not cheap. Just my opinion here but two lanes depressed in both directions (Speedway, Grant or Broadway) and one lane each for surface entry/exit (six total, four unobstructed by lights) would be the best possible transit solution for Tucson...or at least "most practical" to bridge the gap between epochs. The time to have done this would have been 20 years ago or even 10 but time marches on and I don't think Tucson wants it or wants to pay for it (either, probably).

[Azstar]

The answer, IMO, is not to build more freeways or streets. One third of the City of Tucson is vacant land. The City and County own much of that property that has been sitting idle and empty for decades. Residential infill should be encouraged and incentivized. It is currently ignored.Young people want an urban environment where they can work, shop, play, take public transit and ride bicycles without the need for a car.

[kmiller5]

Hi all,

I've been reading the forum for a little while to keep up to date with potential new development in Tucson and really appreciate all the effort is put into keeping us informed.

I apologize for changing the subject but I do have a question that I'd be grateful to have answered. What's going on with the AC Tucson hotel? I remember reading that construction would begin late 2014, and then that was pushed to 1st quarter of 2015 but still nothing has happened. There was a small fence set in one corner of that parking lot for a little while but even that is gone now. Have there been any updates on this project?

Also, thinking about the 20-story mixed use structure at Campbell and Speedway: what goes into changing the zoning to make this project possible? I'd be super excited if this project came to fruition. Thanks for any insight you can provide!

[andrewsaturn]

Hi all,

I've been reading the forum for a little while to keep up to date with potential new development in Tucson and really appreciate all the effort is put into keeping us informed.

I apologize for changing the subject but I do have a question that I'd be grateful to have answered. What's going on with the AC Tucson hotel? I remember reading that construction would begin late 2014, and then that was pushed to 1st quarter of 2015 but still nothing has happened. There was a small fence set in one corner of that parking lot for a little while but even that is gone now. Have there been any updates on this project?

Also, thinking about the 20-story mixed use structure at Campbell and Speedway: what goes into changing the zoning to make this project possible? I'd be super excited if this project came to fruition. Thanks for any insight you can provide!

Hello! The a.c. hotel is suppose to start construction very soon like next month in April! As for the speedway and Campbell project, the last time I heard about it, there was still discussion about how tall the building can go. However, despite what happens with that situation, I think the project was given a green light.

[ProfessorMole]

Also, thinking about the 20-story mixed use structure at Campbell and Speedway: what goes into changing the zoning to make this project possible? I'd be super excited if this project came to fruition. Thanks for any insight you can provide!

You can check out a majority of the stuff involved with that process at this link from the Tucson Planning website.

Current Plan Amendments (http://www.tucsonaz.gov/pdsd/current-plan-amendments) :tup:

[ProfessorMole]

As a follow up to the above post, if anyone is ever curious about highway projects as well, this is the ADOT link to see all the nitty gritty on those.

ADOT South Central Projects (http://azdot.gov/projects/south-central)

[farmerk]

Shanghai Tower architect visits Tucson ... why would this be local news (http://www.kvoa.com/story/28606448/shanghai-tower-architect-visits-tucson)?

El Parador demolished for new project ... will build a modern and urban development “with a nice street presence.” (http://tucson.com/business/local/former-el-parador-demolished-for-new-project/article_bd6cf886-373c-5edf-8777-a70d719533bd.html)

Any of you folks know more about these new events please speak up.

[Patrick S]

Census Department released 2014 estimates today for metro areas and Tucson is over one million, with an official estimate of 1,004,516.

http://factfinder.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/productview.xhtml?src=bkmk

[Thirsty]

Bills in the house and senate would extend I-11 beyond Phoenix. In other words a trucking bypass for Tucson once connected to I-10 somewhere east of town.

http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/28623859/house-bill-would-extended-proposed-i-11-in-arizona-nevada

Another source I can't find now specified the Avra Valley to Nogales route.

[Azstar]

A tiny downtown update. Former Buffalo Exchange space is now occupied by a retail cooperative run by U of A students selling new and vintage clothing. Former Saint House Rum Bar space now has a sign in the window "Otro Gran Concepto(another great concept) Cocina, Vodka, Tequila". Bourne Properties began gutting the former Indian Trading Post Building. 5 new townhouses under construction at 21st between 8th & 9th Ave., at the very southern edge of the Barrio Viejo. I heard one has sold already (still 4 months from completion) and another one may be under contract. Bon, a high end boutique formerly housed at Broadway Village has opened in the space next to Desta and Five Points Market at Stone/18th St. Really cool (expensive) stuff. Downtown Clifton Hotel has opened on Stone/16th. Very simple, plain, but pretty funky and tasteful.

[ComplotDesigner]

From 03-21-15

http://i.imgur.com/D8Cu3Ei.jpg?1

[farmerk]

Tucson is the 21st most congested city in the U.S. (http://www.kvoa.com/story/28680652/new-study-finds-tucsons-traffic-among-the-worst-in-the-nation?par=nbcnews&site=nbcnews.com&cm_ven=nbcnews&cm_cat=Article)

Tucson is more congested than Phoenix (http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/trafficindex/#/list).

[crzyabe]

Tucson is the 21st most congested city in the U.S. (http://www.kvoa.com/story/28680652/new-study-finds-tucsons-traffic-among-the-worst-in-the-nation?par=nbcnews&site=nbcnews.com&cm_ven=nbcnews&cm_cat=Article)

Tucson is more congested than Phoenix (http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/trafficindex/#/list).

I think the most surprising aspect of this information is that Tom Tom is still in business.

[southtucsonboy77]

I think the most surprising aspect of this information is that Tom Tom is still in business.

The items not separated are: freeway traffic and surface street traffic.

We don't have a congested freeway sytem because we don't have a freeway system...we have one major interstate (I-10)traversing through the northwest, west, and southeast parts of the metro; and one minor interstate (I-19) running through the southwest part of the metro. It angers me to hear that if Tucson ever theoritically added ONE(!!!) crosstown freeway that the populous will then be labeled anti-transit, ped, and bike. No, it would make us SMART and economically competitive...and it would allow us, Tucsonans, to travel cross town faster and EFFICIENTLY in an automobile.

We do have a congested surface street system. Road diets are fine in cities like Albq because they have a legitimate freeway system to commute on. North/south and east/west...can you believe that? Here in Tucson, we need to make our principal arterials functional to get cars cross town. So yes, our traffic is terrible on the streets...why? Because we have no cross town freeway. A freeway will not make us Phx or L.A. Not having a freeway obviously makes us Phx and L.A.-like while we're driving our kids to a club softball game at Udall Park from the northwest side. Perhaps we ride our bikes or bring the entire family on Sun Tran with our equipment. Widen 22nd, Broadway, and Grant Roads already...who's with me?! LOL.

[soleri]

The items not separated are: freeway traffic and surface street traffic.

We don't have a congested freeway sytem because we don't have a freeway system...we have one major interstate (I-10)traversing through the northwest, west, and southeast parts of the metro; and one minor interstate (I-19) running through the southwest part of the metro. It angers me to hear that if Tucson ever theoritically added ONE(!!!) crosstown freeway that the populous will then be labeled anti-transit, ped, and bike. No, it would make us SMART and economically competitive...and it would allow us, Tucsonans, to travel cross town faster and EFFICIENTLY in an automobile.

We do have a congested surface street system. Road diets are fine in cities like Albq because they have a legitimate freeway system to commute on. North/south and east/west...can you believe that? Here in Tucson, we need to make our principal arterials functional to get cars cross town. So yes, our traffic is terrible on the streets...why? Because we have no cross town freeway. A freeway will not make us Phx or L.A. Not having a freeway obviously makes us Phx and L.A.-like while we're driving our kids to a club softball game at Udall Park from the northwest side. Perhaps we ride our bikes or bring the entire family on Sun Tran with our equipment. Widen 22nd, Broadway, and Grant Roads already...who's with me?! LOL.

The good news is that there will never be a crosstown freeway built in Tucson. That bad news is that people will still want Tucson to be more like Phoenix despite the obvious failure the Phoenix paradigm represents. Tucson doesn't have to emulate the worst large city in America. With any luck, people will want a great city instead of a great driving experience. You can't have both.

[somethingfast]

Soleri and I have gone back and forth recently on this issue. While I respect his logic and even agree with most of his argument, I remain unswayed from the opinion that a single east-west non-obstructed arterial is a bad idea. Soleri, food for thought...because Tucson is land-locked to both the East and West by mountains, building a x-town freeway will not promote further sprawl. On the contrary, I think it would actually contract development from the fringes of the north and south and promote infill and higher-density development along what would be an arterial that could move a Tucsonan from one extreme to the other in 15 minutes.

Yes, I am still very much in favor of the Great Freeway That Will Never Be Built. But for the record and all...

[Obadno]

Tucson is the 21st most congested city in the U.S. (http://www.kvoa.com/story/28680652/new-study-finds-tucsons-traffic-among-the-worst-in-the-nation?par=nbcnews&site=nbcnews.com&cm_ven=nbcnews&cm_cat=Article)

Tucson is more congested than Phoenix (http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/trafficindex/#/list).

This is probably a non starter but is it possible for Tucson to build a "loop" through some of the less dense suburbs near the base of the mountains?

Would this even help the congestion? In most cities there are too many freeways but in Tucson I don't think they have enough.

http://i.imgur.com/z667sKs.jpg

[azliam]

The good news is that there will never be a crosstown freeway built in Tucson. That bad news is that people will still want Tucson to be more like Phoenix despite the obvious failure the Phoenix paradigm represents. Tucson doesn't have to emulate the worst large city in America. With any luck, people will want a great city instead of a great driving experience. You can't have both.

One of the worst things Tucson voters have done (and there have been many over the years) is not paying attention to its infrastructure earlier on. Having that cross-town freeway would certainly have not made Tucson into another Phoenix; however, it may have alleviated some of the traffic issues on the very clogged surface streets that seem to always need improvements which costs money but ends up looking like a band-aid on the streets. For a city (and metro) the size of Tucson and in comparison to other cities of the same size, it has a very poor transportation infrastructure and poor job growth. The problem with Tucson is that it tries so hard not to be like Phoenix and at the same time, tries too hard to want to be like Portland or Austin. Yet, it doesn't wish to do anything to help make these things happen and in the process, also neglets trying to create its own identity. Furthermore, while Phoenix may not be the garden of Eden, it most certainly doesn't deserve the distain it receives from some Tucsonans. Tucson finally decided that it might be worth improving its downtown; however, that was after years of doing nothing with the Rio Nuevo debacle. In essense, the Tucson city council and many NIMBYS do not see the value in Tucson growing, yet the thing they try to avoid is the very thing they too once contributed to in that many of them moved to Tucson from elsewhere.

[soleri]

Look at it this way: all those people who crave freeways might decide to move to Phoenix. Which means the remaining urbanists might create a city worth caring about. A city where everyone drives is by definition not even a city. It's a SUBURB. Phoenix has less urban energy than Yuma, and its downtown is a perpetual work in non-progress, but it's easy to get around. Unfortunately, there's no city to get to. That's what you want? Please. Move to Phoenix instead. Leave Tucson to the people who actually love it.

[Anqrew]

This is probably a non starter but is it possible for Tucson to build a "loop" through some of the less dense suburbs near the base of the mountains?

Would this even help the congestion? In most cities there are too many freeways but in Tucson I don't think they have enough.

http://i.imgur.com/z667sKs.jpg

In theory, something like this would be nice. But the area at the base of the mountains is extremely beautiful and putting a freeway on it would be tragic. Not to mention that this route runs through Sabino Canyon and Saguaro Park East to name a couple. A grant/kolb expressway is the most logical option to me, make multiple grade separated intersections, add a dedicated right turn lane, pedestrian bridges, increase speed limit. and that's pretty much all Tucson can do, a legitimate freeway wouldn't really be feasible based on money and public opinion.

Other than the grant/kolb route, golf links/aviation would work well too. The sunrise/Ina corridor could be a good option too.

[Obadno]

Look at it this way: all those people who crave freeways might decide to move to Phoenix. Which means the remaining urbanists might create a city worth caring about. A city where everyone drives is by definition not even a city. It's a SUBURB. Phoenix has less urban energy than Yuma, and its downtown is a perpetual work in non-progress, but it's easy to get around. Unfortunately, there's no city to get to. That's what you want? Please. Move to Phoenix instead. Leave Tucson to the people who actually love it.

You really hate Phoenix huh???

[southtucsonboy77]

Look at it this way: all those people who crave freeways might decide to move to Phoenix. Which means the remaining urbanists might create a city worth caring about. A city where everyone drives is by definition not even a city. It's a SUBURB. Phoenix has less urban energy than Yuma, and its downtown is a perpetual work in non-progress, but it's easy to get around. Unfortunately, there's no city to get to. That's what you want? Please. Move to Phoenix instead. Leave Tucson to the people who actually love it.

Again, a freeway...not freeways. Acknowledging the weaknesses of our city/region and wanting to improve those ailments is loving and caring about your city. Having an efficient transportation system is a key aspect of "urbanism". Being highly ranked in Poverty, Congestion, and Anti-business lists is not a piece of Tucson that any of us should be proud of. Using the over-played "move to Phoenix" card is a lazy excuse and has "NIMBY" written all over it. Guess what? Austin and Portland have freeways! San Francisco too! Great cities have balance. We don't have balance. Our surface street congestion is a symptom of that. Our poor pavement is a symptom of that. Our lack of economic development is a symptom of that.

Complete streets, walkable communities, transit, streetcars...they're all a piece of the solution. These things can, will, and have been implemented. What we're stating as common sense folks is that 1) we KNOW that a crosstown freeway will NEVER happen, but 2) if it could happen, with a western starting point of I-10 somewhere between downtown and Marana; and an ending point on the eastside of town (let's say Houghton), this does not expand our urban foot print and OMG how efficient that would be.

[Obadno]

Just read back over that whole future of Phoenix and Tucson conversation.

You guys really need to lay off the doom and gloom. Both Phoenix and Tucson are doing decently well in recent infill projects there is actually a lot to be happy about in both cities.

As for this wild notion that the city will never be anything all is lost save yourself wile you still can mentality is not helpful to anyone and just delusional. There are cities all over the world that have been LEVELED by disasters and wars and come back over and over. It is never too late or impossible to change that's just asinine.

and Finally other than select Neighborhoods of older Pre-War cities Phoenix and Tucson are no more sprawl than most other cities. Is there that big of Difference between living in suburban NJ, or Huston, or Orange County, or San Jose or Northwest Chicago etc. etc. (even your beloved Portland outside of the downtown) Sprawl was the de facto development practice for the past 70-80 years. Would it be great to go back and stop Urban Renewal and Sprawl etc. yes, but we cant. So quit lamenting it and try to do what you can to make the future better.:notacrook:

[southtucsonboy77]

One of the worst things Tucson voters have done (and there have been many over the years) is not paying attention to its infrastructure earlier on. Having that cross-town freeway would certainly have not made Tucson into another Phoenix; however, it may have alleviated some of the traffic issues on the very clogged surface streets that seem to always need improvements which costs money but ends up looking like a band-aid on the streets. For a city (and metro) the size of Tucson and in comparison to other cities of the same size, it has a very poor transportation infrastructure and poor job growth. The problem with Tucson is that it tries so hard not to be like Phoenix and at the same time, tries too hard to want to be like Portland or Austin. Yet, it doesn't wish to do anything to help make these things happen and in the process, also neglets trying to create its own identity. Furthermore, while Phoenix may not be the garden of Eden, it most certainly doesn't deserve the distain it receives from some Tucsonans. Tucson finally decided that it might be worth improving its downtown; however, that was after years of doing nothing with the Rio Nuevo debacle. In essense, the Tucson city council and many NIMBYS do not see the value in Tucson growing, yet the thing they try to avoid is the very thing they too once contributed to in that many of them moved to Tucson from elsewhere.

Well stated.

[azliam]

Look at it this way: all those people who crave freeways might decide to move to Phoenix. Which means the remaining urbanists might create a city worth caring about. A city where everyone drives is by definition not even a city. It's a SUBURB. Phoenix has less urban energy than Yuma, and its downtown is a perpetual work in non-progress, but it's easy to get around. Unfortunately, there's no city to get to. That's what you want? Please. Move to Phoenix instead. Leave Tucson to the people who actually love it.

Boy are you full of faulty, faulty assumptions and generalizations. I lived in Tucson from 1992-2010 and there was much that I loved about Tucson. Having said that, I moved away because I found better job prospects elsewhere. I can see the job market hasn't changed much since I left, but I still hold out hope for it. I do not take a freeway to work and there are often many days/weeks that go by when I have no reason to hop on a freeway. Since the Phoenix metro is obviously 4.5 X the size of the Tucson metro, there are going to be more freeways. You should know that Phoenix really doesn't have as much freeway asphalt when compared to other metros its size or even smaller. In addition, you should already know that density in the Phoenix urban area is higher than that in Tucson so all these ridiculous statements about Phoenix sprawl can be said about many metro areas. Your bitterness is unappealing and people with the same mentality as yours makes me miss Tucson a little less.

[soleri]

You really hate Phoenix huh???

If you love a city, you will do everything you can to advance it. This does not include turning it into a metastasized suburb. I cannot understand why anyone would want that to happen to their city. Phoenix is not competing against its own peers. It still attracts people - mostly older people looking for sunshine and warmth - but it's failing to be a magnet for the creative class and global capital. Why? Because it has no urban vibe.

Tucson can do better. I wish it had better advocates but it's driven most of them away. What a pity.

[Ritarancher]

If you love a city, you will do everything you can to advance it. This does not include turning it into a metastasized suburb. I cannot understand why anyone would want that to happen to their city. Phoenix is not competing against its own peers. It still attracts people - mostly older people looking for sunshine and warmth - but it's failing to be a magnet for the creative class and global capital. Why? Because it has no urban vibe.

Tucson can do better. I wish it had better advocates but it's driven most of them away. What a pity.

Although we're without a crosstown freeway, wouldn't you say that makes us a more viable candidate for mass transit? People who can get to work in their city in 30 minutes or less won't want mass transit.Tucsonans who drive 15 miles and take 40 minutes to do so are going to want a rail to get them where they need at a much lower cost.

[Ted Lyons]

Love it when the guardians of Phoenix jump in here. :slob:

An east-west freeway across the middle of Tucson, entailing the destruction and purchase of probably 10's to 100's of millions of dollars worth of property is never happening. A freeway on top of the Rillito River is never happening. Incentivizing travel between downtown and/or I-10 and the furthest reaches of the hell hole that is far east Tucson isn't beneficial for anyone on a macro scale. This entire conversation is ludicrous.

[Thirsty]

This is probably a non starter but is it possible for Tucson to build a "loop" through some of the less dense suburbs near the base of the mountains?

Would this even help the congestion? In most cities there are too many freeways but in Tucson I don't think they have enough.

http://i.imgur.com/z667sKs.jpg

WOW the views from that road! :cheers:

But the problem would be the same as what I found in Seattle. For most trips the freeways take you SO far out of the way, you're better off taking more direct surface roads at 30-40 mph. In the case of Seattle it has a lot to do with topography.

The reason external loops work in Phoenix is because it is expected there will be lots of development on the outside of the loop as well. As somethingfast pointed out, not the case on the North and East ends.

Maybe something like Prince or Fort Lowell then down Kolb or connect with Tanque Verde and head down Houghton

[Thirsty]

I've been reading occasionally about infill and its always seen as a positive no matter were it takes place. I want to point out there is a difference between urban infill and suburban infill. Suburban infill means more congestion, more storm run-off less nature and more heat.

Even just visually I always enjoyed that the East side developed with patches of untouched desert and alternating miles of sardine can development and neighborhoods with a little breathing room.

I hope the city focuses infill projects in the DT core where alternative transportation is practical and the earth was scalped long ago.

[azliam]

Love it when the guardians of Phoenix jump in here. :slob:

An east-west freeway across the middle of Tucson, entailing the destruction and purchase of probably 10's to 100's of millions of dollars worth of property is never happening. A freeway on top of the Rillito River is never happening. Incentivizing travel between downtown and/or I-10 and the furthest reaches of the hell hole that is far east Tucson isn't beneficial for anyone on a macro scale. This entire conversation is ludicrous.

Ted, you're being ridiculous. Guardians of Phoenix? I spent 17 years of my life in Tucson. I see so much disdain coming from some Tucson posters. Spend more time coming up with solutions to make Tucson more economically appealing so that it retains talent rather than bitching and moaning about what you hope Tucson doesn't become.

[somethingfast]

Ted, you're being ridiculous. Guardians of Phoenix? I spent 17 years of my life in Tucson. I see so much disdain coming from some Tucson posters. Spend more time coming up with solutions to make Tucson more economically appealing so that it retains talent rather than bitching and moaning about what you hope Tucson doesn't become.

Very well said. Agree. Tucson is its own worst enemy in so many ways. Love the town. Hate it. Family. A terribly dysfunctional one :uhh:

[PHX31]

Phoenix has less urban energy than Yuma, and its downtown is a perpetual work in non-progress, but it's easy to get around. Unfortunately, there's no city to get to. That's what you want? Please. Move to Phoenix instead. Leave Tucson to the people who actually love it.

I would love to hear your reasoning behind the Yuma comment. If you would have said Prescott, I might have agreed, in a quaint-touristy sense. Your reasoning is likely based on the percentage of historic structures that have NOT been demolished. In that case, you're letting your hobby cloud your judgement of the real world. Do you walk around with crystals to determine the level of each city's urban energy?

azliam is right, there's more than makes a city, and in turn, a city's economy than just a few areas with historic walk-ability. Tucson has a major university at its doorstep, why don't more of its graduates stay in Tucson after graduating? How do most non-SSP hobbyist residents in Tucson feel about it taking excessive amounts of time to drive across a few miles of surface streets? Time is money. No chance cities like Tucson or Phoenix or anywhere else will ever regain the utopian pre-war eastern U.S./European densely packed pedestrian-scale city you crave. Go ahead and whine and wait forever. It'll give you more time to read your thesaurus.

[Obadno]

If you love a city, you will do everything you can to advance it. This does not include turning it into a metastasized suburb. I cannot understand why anyone would want that to happen to their city. Phoenix is not competing against its own peers. It still attracts people - mostly older people looking for sunshine and warmth - but it's failing to be a magnet for the creative class and global capital. Why? Because it has no urban vibe.

Tucson can do better. I wish it had better advocates but it's driven most of them away. What a pity.

You are horribly bitter and hyperbolic about both Phoenix and Tucson. Phoenix is the way it is because of the time it was developed, like much of Atlanta, Southern California, and Texas. The actual density of urban land for the central city is pretty close to standard. Keep in mind hundreds of square miles of "Phoenix" are desert preserves and wide open undeveloped land in he north. It throws off our density stats.

it isn't strange or horribly different than any new-ish cities. Even Paris, London and Berlin have there on version of suburban McMansions. You are just a fatalist.

Also if you think Tucson is going to Out-urban Phoenix or be a better draw for business you are delusional. Tucson has a lot of work to do to even be compettitve.

Id really like to see Phoenix, Tucson, hell all of AZ successful I love this state and I have plenty of people my age (mid twenties) that LOVE: Downtown, Old Town, Tempe, Arcadia. They like living here they really do. Even plenty of young couples that like Chandler and South Tempe for families.

I don't see why you should be so hopeless about everything?! Some people do prefer Phoenix and Tucson over Portland.

[Ted Lyons]

Ted, you're being ridiculous. Guardians of Phoenix? I spent 17 years of my life in Tucson. I see so much disdain coming from some Tucson posters. Spend more time coming up with solutions to make Tucson more economically appealing so that it retains talent rather than bitching and moaning about what you hope Tucson doesn't become.

Your proposals are not mutually exclusive. It is possible to advocate on behalf of Tucson's economic prosperity while criticizing paths that should be avoided. Tucson's economy is not premised on highway construction or mobility between Sabino Canyon and the city's economic centers.

[Ted Lyons]

Spend more time coming up with solutions to make Tucson more economically appealing so that it retains talent rather than bitching and moaning about what you hope Tucson doesn't become.

Also if you think Tucson is going to Out-urban Phoenix or be a better draw for business you are delusional. Tucson has a lot of work to do to even be compettitve.

Where is this tangent of the conversation coming from if not from the guardians of Phoenix set? I've said it before but it's possible for one to criticize choices that have been made in Phoenix without (1) the input of SSP Phoenix forum members and (2) interpreting that criticism as a fundamental distaste for the city as a whole. Saying we don't want to see Tucson turn into Phoenix in regard to freeway construction =/= we don't want Tucson to follow Phoenix's lead on anything. The fact that many of you are incapable of separating these issues is surely why you feel the need to add your two cents to discussions such as this.

[Obadno]

Where is this tangent of the conversation coming from if not from the guardians of Phoenix set? I've said it before but it's possible for one to criticize choices that have been made in Phoenix without (1) the input of SSP Phoenix forum members and (2) interpreting that criticism as a fundamental distaste for the city as a whole. Saying we don't want to see Tucson turn into Phoenix in regard to freeway construction =/= we don't want Tucson to follow Phoenix's lead on anything. The fact that many of you are incapable of separating these issues is surely why you feel the need to add your two cents to discussions such as this.

my comment was directed at Soleri

[Leo the Dog]

Soleri reminds me of the old AZ Republic columnist, Jon Talton. Phoenix native, who ended up hating Phoenix for what it had become. He made excellent points, but they were lost by all of his constant negativity. Nobody wants to continually read how inferior you are to city "xyz".

[Obadno]

Soleri reminds me of the old AZ Republic columnist, Jon Talton. Phoenix native, who ended up hating Phoenix for what it had become. He made excellent points, but they were lost by all of his constant negativity. Nobody wants to continually read how inferior you are to city "xyz".

"What Phoenix had Become"

See I don't get this... To me that's just the ultimate form of NIMBY-ism.

Im sorry your quirky desert town grew into a large post-war city. What would he have preferred?

Phoenix was more or less nothing until the boom years starting in the 1960's. So I dont know what they wanted, for it to stay a small 200k city??

[azliam]

Where is this tangent of the conversation coming from if not from the guardians of Phoenix set? I've said it before but it's possible for one to criticize choices that have been made in Phoenix without (1) the input of SSP Phoenix forum members and (2) interpreting that criticism as a fundamental distaste for the city as a whole. Saying we don't want to see Tucson turn into Phoenix in regard to freeway construction =/= we don't want Tucson to follow Phoenix's lead on anything. The fact that many of you are incapable of separating these issues is surely why you feel the need to add your two cents to discussions such as this.


Look, I know all about the energy between Tucson and Phoenix posters and it goes both ways. After all, I've only been in Phoenix for 5 years and I was a Tucson forum member prior to that and prior to you joining these forums, so you can refrain from using the "guardians of Phoenix" crap. Furthermore, I think that more than qualifies me to state my opinions about Tucson without the approval of Tucson forum members. There has always been plenty of disdain for and aloofness towards Phoenix from Tucson members and residents and much of that had absolutely nothing to do with freeway construction.

[aznate27]

Condo life to be next major shift in downtown Tucson (http://www.kvoa.com/story/28711098/condo-life-to-be-next-major-shift-in-downtown-tucson)

So I saw this on KVOA's Website today and the following was mentioned as part of the story:

"There are two confirmed projects that will bring in 30 more condos downtown and two more proposals are still being drawn up. Those could result in the construction of two 6 to 12-story condo buildings."

Does anyone have any info on what these projects might be? :shrug:

[Thirsty]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5fbe6Pcbg1qcb58yo1_500.gif

[Leo the Dog]

"What Phoenix had Become"

See I don't get this... To me that's just the ultimate form of NIMBY-ism.

Im sorry your quirky desert town grew into a large post-war city. What would he have preferred?

Phoenix was more or less nothing until the boom years starting in the 1960's. So I dont know what they wanted, for it to stay a small 200k city??

Well, your guess is as good as mine. I used to read many books on Boston's big mistakes of the 50s - 80s and I read a book by Grady Gammage Jr. about Phoenix development of the same time frame. I think what they desired was a more traditional approach to urban development. Phoenix once had a very vibrant CBD. Because it came of age during a time of "urban redevelopment" and the automobile it blossomed into the metropolis it is today. To say it won't evolve into something greater is short sighted and naive.

Cities constantly evolve. Metro Phoenix is in a major transformation right now. The freeways are in place. For it to become a major city, the freeways had to have been built. Now the transition to rail will happen. The CBD will bounce back, but for now Tempe and Scottsdale will become major regional nodes that will ultimately benefit Central Phoenix.

[Ted Lyons]

Look, I know all about the energy between Tucson and Phoenix posters and it goes both ways. After all, I've only been in Phoenix for 5 years and I was a Tucson forum member prior to that and prior to you joining these forums, so you can refrain from using the "guardians of Phoenix" crap. Furthermore, I think that more than qualifies me to state my opinions about Tucson without the approval of Tucson forum members. There has always been plenty of disdain for and aloofness towards Phoenix from Tucson members and residents and much of that had absolutely nothing to do with freeway construction.

Again, the views of Tucsonans towards Phoenix are not monolithic, regardless of what your extensive time on these forums may have led you to believe.

[Ted Lyons]

Condo life to be next major shift in downtown Tucson (http://www.kvoa.com/story/28711098/condo-life-to-be-next-major-shift-in-downtown-tucson)

So I saw this on KVOA's Website today and the following was mentioned as part of the story:

"There are two confirmed projects that will bring in 30 more condos downtown and two more proposals are still being drawn up. Those could result in the construction of two 6 to 12-story condo buildings."

Does anyone have any info on what these projects might be? :shrug:

One could be The Post, or whatever Bourn is calling that project officially. I think that would be on the lower end but there's a chance they realized six floors was a waste of that property. I have no idea about the other project.

Also, LOL at "'I don't know if it's needed. I don't know if it's wanted either because downtown has a certain feel to it,' said Oscar Lopez, who also rents downtown."

[hthomas]

Well, your guess is as good as mine. I used to read many books on Boston's big mistakes of the 50s - 80s and I read a book by Grady Gammage Jr. about Phoenix development of the same time frame. I think what they desired was a more traditional approach to urban development. Phoenix once had a very vibrant CBD. Because it came of age during a time of "urban redevelopment" and the automobile it blossomed into the metropolis it is today. To say it won't evolve into something greater is short sighted and naive.

Cities constantly evolve. Metro Phoenix is in a major transformation right now. The freeways are in place. For it to become a major city, the freeways had to have been built. Now the transition to rail will happen. The CBD will bounce back, but for now Tempe and Scottsdale will become major regional nodes that will ultimately benefit Central Phoenix.

1. The Post
2. On 16th, behind the Jewish History Museum, condos are expected to break ground this year, if the neighbors don't kill it.
3. The Franklin Docks are picking up momentum again...Town West originally sat on the project too long, then tried to lower the heights for the buildings, so the project was killed, I believe the City is starting the process again...
http://www.dunbarspring.org/neighborhood-tags/franklin-docks-development
4. A few weeks ago, someone had posted some of the initial concepts for the redevelopment of the Ronstadt Center, that should be moving forward this Spring, IMO the high-rise condo projects from the Chicago-based company looked the best...

Anybody else have any ideas of what condo projects they may be referring to?

[crzyabe]

4. A few weeks ago, someone had posted some of the initial concepts for the redevelopment of the Ronstadt Center, that should be moving forward this Spring, IMO the high-rise condo projects from the Chicago-based company looked the best...


The Ronstandt block is currnetly out for RFPs which are due back in September. A winner will be selected before Thanksgiving and then negotiations begin. Optimistically, we will see dirt turn Spring 2016, but I am willing to bet it will begin in 2017.

[Azstar]

2. On 16th, behind the Jewish History Museum, condos are expected to break ground this year, if the neighbors don't kill it.


The developer needs to realign Rubio Ave, which is not a public street. They are willing to do that, but need approval from a few neighbors who have rights-of-way. Two neighbors are opposed because they simply would rather look out at a weed strewn empty lot than have other neighbors.

[somethingfast]

The developer needs to realign Rubio Ave, which is not a public street. They are willing to do that, but need approval from a few neighbors who have rights-of-way. Two neighbors are opposed because they simply would rather look out at a weed strewn empty lot than have other neighbors.

Classic Tucson! :tup:

[kaneui]

1. The Post
2. On 16th, behind the Jewish History Museum, condos are expected to break ground this year, if the neighbors don't kill it.
3. The Franklin Docks are picking up momentum again...Town West originally sat on the project too long, then tried to lower the heights for the buildings, so the project was killed, I believe the City is starting the process again...
http://www.dunbarspring.org/neighborhood-tags/franklin-docks-development
4. A few weeks ago, someone had posted some of the initial concepts for the redevelopment of the Ronstadt Center, that should be moving forward this Spring, IMO the high-rise condo projects from the Chicago-based company looked the best...

Anybody else have any ideas of what condo projects they may be referring to?

As far as I know, there have been no major for-sale condo projects downtown since the earlier Presidio Terrace, The Post, Courthouse Annex and El Mirador projects bit the dust when the Great Recession hit--except The Flats at Julian Drew conversions. (Michael Keith may know about two "confirmed" condo projects, but there have yet to be any official announcements--otherwise, I would have them on my Tucson project list.)

However, the demand for downtown housing seems to be picking up, so any of the market-rate apartments proposed for The Post, the Arena Site project, the Ronstadt Transit Center project, and the Mission District west of I-10 could easily be switched to for-sale condos if developers believe that the buyers are there. I've also heard rumors that the proposed San Agustin Plaza mixed-use project across from the cathedral may be revived soon.

[Ted Lyons]

I've also heard rumors that the proposed San Agustin Plaza mixed-use project across from the cathedral may be revived soon.

HSL just bought the parking lot across the street for "townhouse" development. Is that the lot where that was supposed to happen?

[ProfessorMole]

Saw the green poster go up on the fencing outside Wildcat House earlier in the week and then didn't see it on the liquor license agenda for the council meeting on the 7th, so dug through the demolition permit and found out it's going to be a place called Brother John's BBQ. Doesn't seem to be a chain or anything.

Also, checked out the development package for Illegal Pete's which is redeveloping the building next to Frog & Firkin. The current plans show a reorg of the inside of the building and a 3-story, 1,190 sqft addition on the back side.
EDIT: Awesome additional doc that shows what the proposed changes to that building will look like. Historical Site Plan Proposal (http://tucson.siretechnologies.com/SIREPub/cache/2/2310173C2C32C3925D4533FEC3333333737337545425545447/677019204032015042806122.pdf)

Finally, the City will be approving two more debt obligations at the council meeting on the 7th. $60M in water infrastructure improvements and another $20M for City street repairs.

[andrewsaturn]

http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/28719104/downtown-grocery-store-to-open-soon

If you haven't liked their Facebook page, here it is :) :

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Johnny-Gibson-Downtown-Market/281044618724294

[andrewsaturn]

1. The Post
2. On 16th, behind the Jewish History Museum, condos are expected to break ground this year, if the neighbors don't kill it.
3. The Franklin Docks are picking up momentum again...Town West originally sat on the project too long, then tried to lower the heights for the buildings, so the project was killed, I believe the City is starting the process again...
http://www.dunbarspring.org/neighborhood-tags/franklin-docks-development
4. A few weeks ago, someone had posted some of the initial concepts for the redevelopment of the Ronstadt Center, that should be moving forward this Spring, IMO the high-rise condo projects from the Chicago-based company looked the best...

Anybody else have any ideas of what condo projects they may be referring to?

Interesting to see about the Franklin Docks project, have not heard about it until now. Most likely there will be modifications to the design since it is right where the new Deck Plaza for the extension of the Barraza Aviation project will be.

[kaneui]

HSL just bought the parking lot across the street for "townhouse" development. Is that the lot where that was supposed to happen?

It sounds like the same location. As was noted a few months ago by other posters, there were some early renderings drawn up several years ago by Bob Vint for a four-story mixed-use project on that site that never got off the ground:

http://www.vintarchitects.net/#!public--plaza-san-augustin/cqt0

[hthomas]

Interesting to see about the Franklin Docks project, have not heard about it until now. Most likely there will be modifications to the design since it is right where the new Deck Plaza for the extension of the Barraza Aviation project will be.

I recently sold my place in Dunbar spring and bought in barrio viejo. There is a lot of energy in dunbar spring but I presume it will try to kill any project at the franklin docks. There was a liquor license application for the whistle stop in Dunbar springs to turn it into a tap and bottle type concept and they fought it. and they will fight the franklin docs and ronstadt projects.

[crzyabe]

Also, checked out the development package for Illegal Pete's which is redeveloping the building next to Frog & Firkin. The current plans show a reorg of the inside of the building and a 3-story, 1,190 sqft addition on the back side.
EDIT: Awesome additional doc that shows what the proposed changes to that building will look like. Historical Site Plan Proposal (http://tucson.siretechnologies.com/SIREPub/cache/2/2310173C2C32C3925D4533FEC3333333737337545425545447/677019204032015042806122.pdf)


That link did not work for me, but I think I found the document you were referencing: http://www.tucsonaz.gov/files/pdsd/boards-committees-commissions/HISTORIC_illegal_Petes_2015.03.06_SMALL_1.pdf