Tucson Development Thread

[Jjs5056]

I'm unfamiliar with Tucson - did that prposal include the entire superblock, or did/do some of the structures exist already? If the former, is anything there now, or is it an empty lot?

[Patrick S]

what ever happened to this proposal? does it still have a chance of getting built? the century tower, i rememeber reading about it when i was a kid in middle school
http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/7415/centurys.png
I only moved to Tucson in December of 2008, so I'm totally unfamiliar with this project. It looks like it could be the tallest building in the city and that it would be next to the main library on Pennington. It's actually a pretty nice design. Could anyone elaborate on this, please?

[Thirsty]

Well, the facade restoration grants aren't about getting property owners to maintain their property, which seems to be the distinction you're making. You can give someone a bunch of money to fix their facade, but that won't guarantee they take care of it going forward.

The building that housed Grill is going to be torn down no matter what as that fire pretty much destroyed it and exposed a bunch of asbestos. However, your basic issue with those buildings (which, I agree, aren't beautiful) is their original architectural style. Even if they weren't torn down and were restored to their original best, they'd still be ugly. The Arizona doesn't actually look that bad to me. It just needs a paint job which goes to the issue in my first paragraph.

The Pioneer is different from all of those cases in that it's a beautiful building covered by a shell of midcentury crap. Maintenance aside, if you take that shell off and restore the original facade, you immediately improve our skyline significantly. That's mostly because it's actually visible in our skyline whereas none of the low-rises you mentioned are.

Even if that weren't the case, though, the point stands that a restoration of the Pioneer would entail a fundamental alteration of its appearance whereas repainting the other buildings you mentioned would be a temporary fix that would eventually be undone by poor maintenance.

I agree about the picture of the Arizona, but I don't really know anything about the building owners.

I'm sure the Grill building is more of "a beautiful building covered by a shell of midcentury crap" The lower ten feet suggest something older. One of the first two rounds of facade money included a similar building (can't remember which one) with a featureless wall raising from the tops of the door frames.

I'd love to see the Pioneer restored, but I don't think it's current look is particularly offensive. It's not great, but it fits and I never minded it until I found out what was underneath.

[Ted Lyons]

view from Level, wish i had that view of downtown! (wlthough it might not be there once they build Hub lol)
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/156398_348056155309994_1334428314_n.jpg

Wow. Do we know the height of Level in feet vs. the proposed height of The Hub? The top floors of Level might still have a good view.

[farmerk]

A site with old photos of western cities including Tucson. (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1334277&page=5)

[omarainza]

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=231015

http://www.insidetucsonbusiness.com/opinion/editorials/a-downtown-high-rise-are-they-crazy/article_d43087cb-6adb-5767-9483-c7ea46792bba.html

http://www.cognidev.com/images/centurytower2.jpg

lol i was 14 then i guess. now with the advent of the internet i see it just didnt happen. economically unfeasable apparently. it was back in 05 and along with the rainbow bridge was just shot down. it looks like it would've done great there instead of those little huts they set up there as an implied "farmer's market" that sells native jewelry and art.... yeah, tower any day. and to Jjs5056, the white building is the library and is there. the 2 buildings were going to be built on what are patches of lawn currently there.

[farmerk]

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=231015

http://www.insidetucsonbusiness.com/opinion/editorials/a-downtown-high-rise-are-they-crazy/article_d43087cb-6adb-5767-9483-c7ea46792bba.html

http://www.cognidev.com/images/centurytower2.jpg

lol i was 14 then i guess. now with the advent of the internet i see it just didnt happen. economically unfeasable apparently. it was back in 05 and along with the rainbow bridge was just shot down. it looks like it would've done great there instead of those little huts they set up there as an implied "farmer's market" that sells native jewelry and art.... yeah, tower any day. and to Jjs5056, the white building is the library and is there. the 2 buildings were going to be built on what are patches of lawn currently there.

That tower would've been a nice addition downtown.

I've always have doubts these recent building developments are just temporary but come to think of it I think they would remain a permanent fixture being that Tucson is limited in growth physically - surrounded by mountains, saguaro parks, unincorporated areas and Tucsonan's constant hatred towards building a crosstown freeway (plus if that street car gets it's own lane all over Tucson)....And the overly abundance of "HISTORIC" neighborhoods. So the only way to compensate for future vehicular gridlock and population growth is to build up.

Btw, I'm seeing some development with surveyors/engineers(?) surveying(?) at the Tucson Marketplace. Starting stages of developing those KBHome/Lennar developments?

[kaneui]

Observations on a few of the recent topics of discussion:

Century Tower
This tower was a pipe dream that was never financially feasible. Downtown still has relatively little demand for office space, as the One South Church tower still has lots of room to fill since UniSource Energy moved to their own building in 2011.

Facade Grant Program
The current program awards grants of up to $5k for minor cosmetic facade work, and up to $125k for larger projects. However, I believe even the smaller ones have to keep the buildings in good repair for at least 5 years after the work is complete.

TCC hotel projects
Although everyone wants a primary convention center hotel, it's not going to be feasible or even necessary until the TCC is substantially enlarged and upgraded (the $6M of Rio Nuevo improvements will only be a drop in the bucket). However, Rio Nuevo is committed to investing in some smaller nearby hotels--whether it be the Stiteler proposal, the proposed Bourn hotel on the Thrifty block, the hotel in the Peach Properties mixed-use project next to the freeway, or even a possible hotel in the Mission District west of I-10. Once a "notice to proceed" is issued on at least one hotel, Rio Nuevo can then spend money on other projects within the district.

Main Gate UOD
The maximum height in this urban overlay district is 158', which is the height of LEVEL, and probably nearly the same for The Hub and Park Ave., which I believe are 14 and 13 stories, respectively.

[Ritarancher]

I think the Century Tower was going to be 70 million dollars to build. A great deal in my opinion considering that the Sheraton was 200 mill and rainbow bridge was over 300 mill. We really should have built the tower at the price it was at. We'd use the floor space one day

[omarainza]

I think the Century Tower was going to be 70 million dollars to build. A great deal in my opinion considering that the Sheraton was 200 mill and rainbow bridge was over 300 mill. We really should have built the tower at the price it was at. We'd use the floor space one day

I know it's a shame too, I feel like it could've brought in revenue as a mixed-use project. From my rendering, the bottom 2 floors would include a lobby/atrium that people could be welcomed to with retail on the ground and a gym/pool area on the 2nd floor. Perhaps a ballroom for them to cater to proms, gatherings downtown, weddings, etc. since it would open up to what is the library's plaza which with a little more sprucing up could be very attractive for photos. The next 7 floors of office space and then condos for the rest of the floors up to the top 2 floors which would include a top floor restaurant with a viewing gallery. It's right smack dab in the middle of the buildings and what a view of urban landscape and the surrounding mountains you'd get from those top floors made of glass. I wouldn't mind living there at all. The condos don't have to be super expensive posh studios that cater to the rich. Designed well and streamlined they would cater to middle class people who could afford to live there and perhaps set the cornerstone for more downtown living, other than student housing, low-income seniors, and rich artisans. They needn't charge a bajillion dollars/mo to live there and people would live there regardless of price if they can afford to pay off monthly.

I think it was just shot down prematurely in a time when the developments were unstable, the rio nuevo and city were and still somewhat are unreliable, and the thought of this radical proposal was too much for them to envision. But now with these new developers showing interest in building downtown, if the idea were to be brought up to, say peach, would the project have any chance of being brought to life? What would it take other than MONEY$$$ :)

[Ritarancher]

A little off topic but here's an article for Vail becoming a town
http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/21236825/will-vail-be-arizonas-newest-town


There have been rumors that Vail, a small rail stop on Tucson's southeast boundary, may become a town.

If it can garner half the vote in an election which supporters hope to hold in August, the 12,500 residents would become an incorporated town much like Sahuarita or Marana.

News 13 was told there hasn't been an incorporated town in Arizona since 2000. The last one in the Tucson area was Sahuarita in 1994.

It's not an easy process. Casas Adobes, Tortolita and Green Valley have all lost incorporation battles.

And because of state law, Tucson will have a say as to whether the town can incorporate.

Tucson will discuss whether to allow the move in its weekly study session this week.

Tucson Mayor Jonathan Rothschild talked about Vail specifically in his first state of the city address a year ago.

The Tucson area has been penalized by state tax law for decades. State shared revenues are distributed among incorporated areas.

Nearly half the Tucson valley is unincorporated.

Adding Vail to the mix would add state shared revenues to this part of the state.

It's estimated to be worth $3.2 million.

Still, the town would have to contract out for police and fire.

But the money could be used for transportation, library and other historical preservation.

The supporters will get the ball rolling by submitting their petitions for signatures.

In its first pass, the county pointed out an error in the petitions but that has since been corrected.

I think that Vail should become a town and dominate ALL of the land east of houghton and where Corona de Tucson is. I also am disappointed that Green Valley and Casas Adobes (our largest suburb) never became a town. Personally I think that Green Valley and Sahuarita should become one and own lots of that land down there. I also think that Catalina Foothills, Casas Adobes, Tanque Verde and Flowing Wells need to be a mega suburb with a population of over 150K and most citizens being fairly wealthy. That might attract some people to the desert. I also feel that we need to take control of the western suburbs like drexel heights.

Here's my most reliable source for population and city limit maps
http://www.census.gov/2010census/popmap/ It's easy to use and it shows tucson fairly well. Use this and you'll understand what I am talking about. You'd be surprised how many Tucson area residents are being uncounted for in population figures.
I watched the video. Old people hold us back from becoming better. LEAVE RETIREES , unless your from 'round these parts

[farmerk]

City plan keeps major bus hub downtown

Parcel had been focus of possible property transfer
FEBRUARY 11, 2013 12:00 AM • DARREN DARONCO ARIZONA DAILY STAR

Supporters of the Ronstadt Transit Center can breathe a bit easier.

For months, city officials were negotiating a deal to cede the Ronstadt Center and up to two other downtown properties to the owners of a scenic 284-parcel in the Painted Hills as a way to block development there. The city would have then sold the Painted Hills parcel to Pima County for $3.6 million.

When word leaked about the discussions, bus riders and their advocates staged a rally to protest what they feared may have been a backroom deal to hand off a vital transit hub for commuters to monied interests.

Last Tuesday, the mayor and council allayed those fears when they directed the city staff to create a "development vision" for the transit center that will maintain it as a transit hub while allowing for some mixed-use development. Once the plans are complete, the city will put the project out to competitive bid.

The move essentially separates the Ronstadt Center from the discussions with the Dallas Police and Fire Employee Pension Fund, which owns the Painted Hills property, said Councilwoman Karin Uhlich, who drafted the motion.

"They may well be one of the interested respondents," Uhlich said. "But there are two parallel conversations going on in the community now" - one with the pension fund and the other on what to do with the Ronstadt Center.

She said the conversation on the transit center had been fruitless for too long.

Now's the time to redirect the discussion to include how to attract development that will make downtown more vibrant without compromising transit.

"Tucson's been stuck over a decade in this polarized dynamic ... with some folks saying we don't touch (Ronstadt) and others saying we do away with it completely," Uhlich said. "So it really is exciting to think how pedestrian and transit and other modes of transportation can come together in the downtown to create this mix of people and activities that make so many (other) downtowns great."

Councilman Steve Kozachik said the city was never just going to hand over the transit center and give carte blanche to the Dallas pension fund.
"The firefighters had hoped that we would just give it to them and let them build on it, but that's not the way it's going to work," Kozachik said. "They can compete for it. ... But we weren't inclined to just turn it over. That would be absurd."

County tried to buy it

Pima County has had its eye on the Painted Hills property since 1997, when it was included in that year's open-space bond program. The county tried to buy it in 2006 but was outbid when the Dallas pension fund bought the property for $27 million.

The county was a party to the negotiations, but now it appears to be in the dark regarding the city's recent move, according to County Administrator Chuck Huckelberry.

"We haven't heard much of anything," Huckelberry said. "We're still prepared to cooperate with the city to ensure the Painted Hills is conserved. But somebody's got to tell us what they like."

If the county ever acquires the property, it would combine with part of Tucson Mountain Park and remain undeveloped.
The county would then attempt to buy additional land to connect Painted Hills to the rest of Tucson Mountain Park.

"It really is exciting to think how pedestrian and transit and other modes of transportation can come together in the downtown to create this mix of people and activities that make so many (other) downtowns great."

Councilwoman Karin Uhlich

Contact reporter Darren DaRonco at 573-4243 or ddaronco@azstarnet.com.

Source (http://azstarnet.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/city-plan-keeps-major-bus-hub-downtown/article_9cafd4b0-cc88-520e-8779-cf9ca3a3bfda.html)

Looks like downtown may have a new candidate for another mix-used building. Hopefully it will look as nice as the Hub ( I cried when I saw that rendering. Couldn't believe Tucson would allow such nice building ).

[Thirsty]

Designed well and streamlined they would cater to middle class people who could afford to live there and perhaps set the cornerstone for more downtown living, other than student housing, low-income seniors, and rich artisans. They needn't charge a bajillion dollars/mo to live there and people would live there regardless of price if they can afford to pay off monthly.

I'd love to have a new downtown condo, but it is hard to justify the cost when there are houses on land with tons of character available within a two or three minute walk at condo prices.

A bit of a tangent, but not really. To boost investor confidence in these public/private dorms AND to bring life and investment back into local neighborhoods (if they're gonna be historic we should at least want them to be kept up), the UofA really should enforce a residency policy for undergrads. If all freshmen and sophomores had to live in dorms, the demand for beds would triple if they met the 50k students by 2020 goal, and take a big bite out of the market for rental homes.

^FWIW I was once the proud inhabitant of a weed choked, cars in front yard, couch on porch, inebriated-teen-storage-facility in the Sam Hughes Neighborhood.

[Ritarancher]

I'd love to have a new downtown condo, but it is hard to justify the cost when there are houses on land with tons of character available within a two or three minute walk at condo prices.

A bit of a tangent, but not really. To boost investor confidence in these public/private dorms AND to bring life and investment back into local neighborhoods (if they're gonna be historic we should at least want them to be kept up), the UofA really should enforce a residency policy for undergrads. If all freshmen and sophomores had to live in dorms, the demand for beds would triple if they met the 50k students by 2020 goal, and take a big bite out of the market for rental homes.

^FWIW I was once the proud inhabitant of a weed choked, cars in front yard, couch on porch, inebriated-teen-storage-facility in the Sam Hughes Neighborhood.

If all freshmen and sophomores had to live in dorms people would not like the U of A. I know many students who only go to school part time and it would seem impractical for them to move into a dorm for 2 years. I like Level and the Cadence but IMO the rates are through the roof (we've got some tall roofs there) as it is.
I like the historic neighborhood south of downtown. It's got nice homes and unique buildings

[phxSUNSfan]

If all freshmen and sophomores had to live in dorms people would not like the U of A. I know many students who only go to school part time and it would seem impractical for them to move into a dorm for 2 years.

I don't think that would be the case for the UofA...ASU requires freshmen and some sophomores to live on campus; mostly those students enrolled 3/4 and full-time. Some students are granted waivers and not required to live on campus but it must be approved by the university and can be a hassle. Because of this, ASU has one of the largest on-campus residential student populations in the U.S. It also has increased retention rates for freshmen/sophomores.

[omarainza]

[QUOTE=Thirsty;6020066]I'd love to have a new downtown condo, but it is hard to justify the cost when there are houses on land with tons of character available within a two or three minute walk at condo prices.[QUOTE]

or perhaps a market rate apartment? then the owners of the building can continuously rent out the spaces for profit? how much apartments/condos can a building like this hold per floor? 2-3 maybe? just pondering lol there has to be at least 50 people in the entire city who would enjoy this thought of living. or the option as a hotel. i live on the southside so my lack of urbanization down here kinda makes remote dreams like this exciting :)

also a question, does the lot next to unisource have to be an office building? could it also go into a mixed-use project there? i feel a smaller building not a twin but with a similar style would look nice there to add character. since the foundation is there already, wouldnt it be cheaper to develop it first than buy a new property and start from scratch?

[Ted Lyons]

Arizona doesn't have enough beds for all the people who apply for on-campus housing each year, so requiring on-campus living isn't feasible right now no matter what.

On another note, demo is occurring at The Herbert.

[Anqrew]

The Frat house on 1st and Tyndall is being torn down too as well, right now looks like most the roof is gone (as seen on the LEVEL cam) to make way for Hub.

[Thirsty]

If all freshmen and sophomores had to live in dorms people would not like the U of A. I know many students who only go to school part time and it would seem impractical for them to move into a dorm for 2 years. I like Level and the Cadence but IMO the rates are through the roof (we've got some tall roofs there) as it is.
I like the historic neighborhood south of downtown. It's got nice homes and unique buildings

Anyone who isn't a full time student should be exempt of course, as well as any Tucsonan who wants to stay with family and commute for financial reasons.

I don't think that would be the case for the UofA...ASU requires freshmen and some sophomores to live on campus; mostly those students enrolled 3/4 and full-time. Some students are granted waivers and not required to live on campus but it must be approved by the university and can be a hassle. Because of this, ASU has one of the largest on-campus residential student populations in the U.S. It also has increased retention rates for freshmen/sophomores.

^This. Dorm requirements are not unusual. And there is the grad rates.


Arizona doesn't have enough beds for all the people who apply for on-campus housing each year, so requiring on-campus living isn't feasible right now no matter what.

On another note, demo is occurring at The Herbert.

Never would have brought it up without the new beds being added. With the new public/private dorms I bet they could fit all the freshmen, and build out from there.

[Anqrew]

i was downtown today when it was snowing! it was beautiful!

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/421918_3817577218148_1271322521_n.jpg

[Schaeffa]

i was downtown today when it was snowing! it was beautiful!

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/421918_3817577218148_1271322521_n.jpg

Great minds think alike. I snapped this picture from a slightly different angle. :D

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/421817_445016065570864_1437118716_n.jpg

[Anqrew]

Great minds think alike. I snapped this picture from a slightly different angle. :D

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/421817_445016065570864_1437118716_n.jpg

WOW! we were definitely there at the same time... because my car is in your photo! haha.. I'm pretty sure if that palm tree wasnt blocking the view you would see me.. haha

[farmerk]

....
also a question, does the lot next to unisource have to be an office building? could it also go into a mixed-use project there? i feel a smaller building not a twin but with a similar style would look nice there to add character. since the foundation is there already, wouldnt it be cheaper to develop it first than buy a new property and start from scratch?

I'd love to have a modern building besides the Unisource and hopefully, much taller, different and nicer. Unisource is a nice looking building. Browsing in the internets, looks like buildings with several gardens with trees in/around/above the building seems to be the trend these days - I like that...like the HUB ( :wah: , I love you, man!) . Some newer buildings seem to be covered with a facade (wire mesh?)...that would be perfect for renovating city hall and the county admin/superior court buildings ( Brutatlist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brutalist_architecture) ). There's an empty lot besides the TEP and Chicago Store, that may be another spot for a high/mid rise.

As mentioned, yes, if you want to brag about your 'HISTORICAL' house, FIX IT!!! Cut the lawn, paint it, fix your freak'in door etc... I've seen a lot of 'historical' houses refurbished around downtown lately, they look nice. In fact, that San Carlos apts across TEP has been undergoing a lot of refurbishing inside and out.

[Patrick S]

Grand Canyon University looks to Tucson for possible new campus (http://www.insidetucsonbusiness.com/news/grand-canyon-university-looks-to-tucson-for-possible-new-campus/article_d8302f16-7c51-11e2-9b42-001a4bcf887a.html)

By Patrick McNamara

Phoenix-based Grand Canyon University has plans to build a new campus and Tucson is on the short list of locations. The new campus would ultimately serve up to 7,000 students and have as many as 2,000 employees.

“We’re just trying to determine where we’re going to take our first step,” said Bill Jenkins, spokesman for Grand Canyon University.

Jenkins said the university had first sought to expand into the Phoenix metro area’s East Valley, which includes the communities of Chandler, Mesa, Scottsdale, Tempe, Ahwatukee and Gilbert. School officials issued a request for proposals to get a sense of what the communities could offer the proposed expansion campus.

When word reached Tucson that Grand Canyon was looking for a new site, Tucson Regional Economic Opportunities President and CEO Joe Snell and a group of close to 20 government and private industry leaders from the region went to meet with university officials.

“We are very confident that we have a regional plan that will be compelling to them,” Snell said.

The group has put together a proposal that shows numerous locations in the Tucson region that would meet the university’s site requirements.

“We were very impressed,” Jenkins said.

Jenkins said the university would look for a site of about 75 to 100 acres that could accommodate four campus buildings for classrooms, a recreation center and food services. There are no plans for student housing.

Snell said a TREO analysis estimates the economic impact of the campus could be as much as $1.6 billion. “That’s as much as Ventana Medical Systems,” he said.

Grand Canyon University plans to break ground on the campus by this summer and start classes in fall 2014. The campus also could qualify for incentives offered by the Arizona Commerce Authority.

Grand Canyon University, founded in 1949, is a private, Christian university accredited for undergraduate and graduate degrees by the Higher Learning Commission. More than 7,000 students study at the university’s Phoenix campus and more than 40,000 take classes online.

Jenkins said that the search of a new campus, which at one time included Albuquerque and Las Vegas, is now down to just two possibilities; either Tucson or the East Valley.

[Patrick S]

$90M road hub proposed for S. Side (http://azstarnet.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/m-road-hub-proposed-for-s-side/article_35186b0c-e19f-5533-b34a-c7ec195fec95.html)
RAYTHEON BUFFER PLAN EXPANDED INTO AEROSPACE, DEFENSE CORRIDOR

Becky Pallack Arizona Daily Star

Pima County's $40 million plan to protect Raytheon has evolved into a $90 million one-road-fits-all plan designed to meet the needs of a growing list of existing and hoped-for future employers in a broad corridor across Tucson's far south side.

But coming up with the $90 million to get it built will require a large infusion of county bonds, state and federal funding - and possibly even Pima County's first road tolls, said County Administrator Chuck Huckelberry.

Huckelberry is billing it as "probably the most important economic development project that's come along in 30 years."

The planning began when local leaders reacted to the shock of Raytheon Missile Systems choosing Huntsville, Ala., over Tucson as the site of a new business unit a few years ago.

Raytheon is the Tucson area's largest private employer and Huckelberry wanted a plan to protect jobs and allow the company to grow here.

The initial idea was for the county to buy land and shift roadways around Raytheon, creating a buffer zone that would help the company keep its current contracts and provide a business park site for a future expansion.

The work was to cost $40 million, including $29 million in funding from a future bond election, now tentatively scheduled for 2014.

But since then, the county has moved ahead quickly with the plan, spending $6 million in general fund money to buy the buffer land and securing $8 million from the Pima Association of Governments to relocate Hughes Access Road.

Once those projects didn't need to be part of the bond package, Huckelberry started to rethink the scope.

Now he is proposing an Aerospace Parkway, a highway that would meet all the needs of the old plans for about $90 million in bond money.

"We now have a larger vision for this roadway becoming a real state highway, and an interstate really," Huckelberry said.

The project would help not only help Raytheon but also connect two University of Arizona research parks, Davis-Monthan Air Force Base, the Arizona Air National Guard, the airport and the Port of Tucson.

The Hughes Access Road relocation would become part of the parkway, as would the Old Vail Connection Road. Together, they would form a new state highway stretching from Interstate 10 at Rita Road near the UA Tech Park to Nogales Highway, near a new 2,500-acre research park, creating an Aerospace and Defense Corridor.

A later phase, which is not part of the proposed bond package, would connect the parkway to Interstate 19, likely though Sahuarita. The convergence of highways, rail lines and an airport in one area on Tucson's south side would create an Import Distribution Zone.

"There's been this kind of rethinking of the road to actually make it much more functional from an interstate and interstate commerce perspective," Huckelberry said.

Because the new highway would be a closed system, it could be a toll road to help pay for itself, he said.

Huckelberry is asking the Bond Advisory Committee to add the highway to the draft bond package at its May meeting.

Committee chairman Larry Hecker said he personally likes the way the idea has developed and that one project could provide mobility and access to several key economic centers.

But the committee needs to hear more about the rationale behind the project and the defined benefits it could bring.

"The ultimate benefit is the creation and retention of well-paying jobs," Hecker said.

The committee wants Huckelberry to explain what kinds of jobs could be created.

Advocates for the aerospace/defense and logistics industries support the plan.

Mike Grassinger, president of the D-M 50 and CEO of The Planning Center, called Huckelberry's plan "visionary."

"I think it's a really good move that he's making that's going to help secure the continued existence of Raytheon in our community," Grassinger said.

Mike Valencia, president of the Southern Arizona Logistics Education Organization, said the highway project is important for attracting employers who need a strategic logistics hub.

"It's another one of those important blocks in building this community into a major logistics center," Valencia said.

He said the highway would save time for companies moving goods from Mexico and the distribution zone would provide truck, rail and air options for moving those goods beyond Tucson.

[farmerk]

Just working on some primitive arithmetic with our recent student housing above 3 floors.
Level - 14 fl, 586 students
District on 5th - 5 fl, 756 students
Greyhound - 6 fl, 287 students
Railyard - 5 fl, 169 students
The Hub ( :wah:) - 14 fl, 606 students
Park Ave - 13 fl, 586 students
--------------------------------------
Total - 57 fl, 2990 students ONLY .

That's with shared rooms. UofA has at least 35K students. We need more of those HIGH QUALITY student (and non-student) buildings. Personally, I'm waiting for a condo at the 40th floor of a building.

[Thirsty]

Just working on some primitive arithmetic with our recent student housing above 3 floors.
Level - 14 fl, 586 students
District on 5th - 5 fl, 756 students
Greyhound - 6 fl, 287 students
Railyard - 5 fl, 169 students
The Hub ( :wah:) - 14 fl, 606 students
Park Ave - 13 fl, 586 students
--------------------------------------
Total - 57 fl, 2990 students ONLY .

That's with shared rooms. UofA has at least 35K students. We need more of those HIGH QUALITY student (and non-student) buildings. Personally, I'm waiting for a condo at the 40th floor of a building.

Still, that's 9.6% of all undergrads, and that's not bad.

I assume they're making apartment style housing because they need a selling point over dorms. Universities pack 'em in like sardines, 40-50 sq. ft. per occupant.

[Thirsty]

I've got a few thoughts:

One proposed TREO site is in the city of Tucson. Hopefully the other two aren't in unincorporated lands. (Ideally for downtown it would be at the PCC West campus, but I doubt that is on the table.)

The East Phoenix Valley has landed four private colleges in the past year. I wonder if that market is becoming less attractive to GCU. Particularly because one of those is a Catholic College in the predominantly Catholic EV. I don't know what the breakdown of GCU students is, but I know they offer a hefty tuition discount to Catholics.

Speaking of the new EV colleges, I'm sure TREO watched all this happen 2-3 years ago and started working on their own plan. I bet their pitch has been in the works for a while, and GCU just happened to come along at the right time.

While this would be a good get for Tucson, I've always been disappointed that we concentrate our higher education in the three largest cities. Imagine what a small 5-10k student college could do for Prescott/Verde Valley, Globe or somewhere in Cochise county. There are beautiful places in this state that should attract students looking for a "college town" experience. I bet 5k more students make a bigger impact in Gila County than they would in Phoenix.

[phxSUNSfan]

The East Phoenix Valley has landed four private colleges in the past year. I wonder if that market is becoming less attractive to GCU. Particularly because one of those is a Catholic College in the predominantly Catholic EV. I don't know what the breakdown of GCU students is, but I know they offer a hefty tuition discount to Catholics.

GCU is a Christian University (Southern Baptist). They don't offer discounts based on religious affiliation but they do ofter a 53% discount to those enrolled on their physical campus. They claim not to be overtly religious like some Christian institutions, but I don't know anyone affiliated with the university or a student so I can't verify that. I would also argue that the East Valley, particularly Mesa, where the 4 private colleges recently announced new locations is more Mormon than Catholic. At least in terms of influence, Mormonism would hold sway in Mesa and other East Valley cities like Gilbert.

[Ritarancher]

GCU is a Christian University (Southern Baptist). They don't offer discounts based on religious affiliation but they do ofter a 53% discount to those enrolled on their physical campus. They claim not to be overtly religious like some Christian institutions, but I don't know anyone affiliated with the university or a student so I can't verify that. I would also argue that the East Valley, particularly Mesa, where the 4 private colleges recently announced new locations is more Mormon than Catholic. At least in terms of influence, Mormonism would hold sway in Mesa and other East Valley cities like Gilbert.

A catholic university would thrive in Tucson. I don't really know where we'd put it but I'd hate for it to be in Marana, Vail or any other suburb, it be really nice if it was in Tucson city limits. I don't know what effect it will have on the UofA but otherwise it seems like something we should build.

[Thirsty]

GCU is a Christian University (Southern Baptist). They don't offer discounts based on religious affiliation but they do ofter a 53% discount to those enrolled on their physical campus. They claim not to be overtly religious like some Christian institutions, but I don't know anyone affiliated with the university or a student so I can't verify that. I would also argue that the East Valley, particularly Mesa, where the 4 private colleges recently announced new locations is more Mormon than Catholic. At least in terms of influence, Mormonism would hold sway in Mesa and other East Valley cities like Gilbert.

Significant Education, LLC. purchased GCU in 2004 from whichever subdivision of the Southern Baptists that founded it.

This past Christmas I was reading a newsletter from Seton High School (Chandler, AZ) which described the tuition discounts available through GCU's partnership with the Roman Catholic Diocese of Phoenix.

I'm not trying to implying anything other than EV Catholics are part of their "target market"

As for religious populations, I spoke with a geographer around the 2010 census. He taught at a local community college and said he worked with a Maricopa County planning board. Anyway, the take away was that Catholic families were moving east from Phoenix/Tempe/Chandler and replacing the Mormons who have pulled up and moved elsewhere to the point where they (Mormons) are no longer the largest denomination in Mesa.

Not that any of those details are important, I just wanted to point out that one of the 4 new colleges in the vicinity cater to a major religious group GCU targets. Four other colleges offers a lot of competition, regardless of religion.

*five if you count the growing ASU-Poly out in East Mesa.

[nickw252]

Particularly because one of those is a Catholic College in the predominantly Catholic EV.

Correction: predominantly Mormon EV.

[Thirsty]

At least in terms of influence, Mormonism would hold sway in Mesa and other East Valley cities like Gilbert.

I missed that last line, and I agree, Mormons hold sway in the EV. They've got the political clout, and the old-money. Will GCU be looking at politics or profits? Or more accurately, will they earn more profit from population (tuition) or politics (stock market). It is a whole new world with these type of schools.

[Patrick S]

I've got a few thoughts:

One proposed TREO site is in the city of Tucson. Hopefully the other two aren't in unincorporated lands. (Ideally for downtown it would be at the PCC West campus, but I doubt that is on the table.)

The East Phoenix Valley has landed four private colleges in the past year. I wonder if that market is becoming less attractive to GCU. Particularly because one of those is a Catholic College in the predominantly Catholic EV. I don't know what the breakdown of GCU students is, but I know they offer a hefty tuition discount to Catholics.

Speaking of the new EV colleges, I'm sure TREO watched all this happen 2-3 years ago and started working on their own plan. I bet their pitch has been in the works for a while, and GCU just happened to come along at the right time.

While this would be a good get for Tucson, I've always been disappointed that we concentrate our higher education in the three largest cities. Imagine what a small 5-10k student college could do for Prescott/Verde Valley, Globe or somewhere in Cochise county. There are beautiful places in this state that should attract students looking for a "college town" experience. I bet 5k more students make a bigger impact in Gila County than they would in Phoenix.
What is the 3rd city that you count as the 3 biggest cities? If it's Mesa (which is the 3rd largest city in the state) I personally wouldn't count that as such since it's really just a part of the Phoenix area (like Ft. Worth is part of Dallas or Long Beach is part of LA). I would count Yuma as the 3rd largest city - really metro area - and I would put a new public university there. That area is growing and needs the educational opportunities a public school would provide. And don't forget the 3rd state university is in Flagstaff (NAU).

[Thirsty]

What is the 3rd city that you count as the 3 biggest cities? If it's Mesa (which is the 3rd largest city in the state) I personally wouldn't count that as such since it's really just a part of the Phoenix area (like Ft. Worth is part of Dallas or Long Beach is part of LA). I would count Yuma as the 3rd largest city - really metro area - and I would put a new public university there. That area is growing and needs the educational opportunities a public school would provide. And don't forget the 3rd state university is in Flagstaff (NAU).

I had Flagstaff as the 3rd metro area. Maybe Yuma is bigger. Still, just 3 cities.

[farmerk]

A catholic university would thrive in Tucson. I don't really know where we'd put it but I'd hate for it to be in Marana, Vail or any other suburb, it be really nice if it was in Tucson city limits. I don't know what effect it will have on the UofA but otherwise it seems like something we should build.

I don't see a predominantly suburb like Marana nor Vail hosting a university. First time I've ever heard of this university, GCU . Yuma would probably benefit more than any city in AZ since they are in worse shape , highest unemployment rate in the U.S. (27 percent). But they're looking for either Tucson or East Valley.

I don't think Christian equates with the Mormon religion. So, politically, Tucson might have a good chance as the preferred location for the 75-100 acre GCU campus (about 1/4 of the UA campus, 380 acres). If they ever move in the Old Pueblo, that would be a huge Hallelujah, Praise the Lord event!

Ideally, I'd like it to move in or within walking distance from downtown Tucson. Use the powers of eminent domain if necessary. The UA Tech Park by Rita Ranch/Kolb has a high school located in that campus so that could be another possible location. There's some empty lots at the Kino Pkwy. Or anywhere within the soon to be approved CBD this March, central business district. Tucson would probably refer GCU to locate within a future street car route or a downtown location.

[farmerk]

Still, that's 9.6% of all undergrads, and that's not bad.

I assume they're making apartment style housing because they need a selling point over dorms. Universities pack 'em in like sardines, 40-50 sq. ft. per occupant.

9.6% is good. However, with 50K UA population and with Tucson inviting Traffic Armageddon , building more mid/high rise buildings close to campus is more likely. Not everyone in Tucson is poor and population of Tucson is consistently going up. I don't see Tucson building any freeways ever and it still is a challenge to expand lanes. Downtown links was supposed to be 6 lanes instead of 4 and Broadway between downtown and Country Club might still end up 4 lanes instead of the proposed 6. Tucson should prepare for major excruciating slow traffic in the future.

[farmerk]

Forgive me for getting off an interesting subject, GC University location, but I wanted to share this (copied from a user from another site).

Laura Douglas of the Arizona Department of Transportation interview with KJZZ about Phx-Tuc alternative transport (http://www.kjzz.org/content/1212/arizona-transportation-officials-review-phoenix-tucson-rail-comments)

Interesting Time mag article about US Freight trains (http://business.time.com/2012/07/09/us-freight-railroads/)

State of Maine's passenger rail success (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tony-dutzik/the-little-train-that-cou_b_1236705.html)

It would take 5.5 hours travel at I-10 by 2050 even with 10 lanes between Phx-Tuc (http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/local/article_a6ee7960-f45f-11e0-9bc2-001cc4c002e0.html)

[Patrick S]

Forgive me for getting off an interesting subject, GC University location, but I wanted to share this (copied from a user from another site).

Laura Douglas of the Arizona Department of Transportation interview with KJZZ about Phx-Tuc alternative transport (http://www.kjzz.org/content/1212/arizona-transportation-officials-review-phoenix-tucson-rail-comments)

Interesting Time mag article about US Freight trains (http://business.time.com/2012/07/09/us-freight-railroads/)

State of Maine's passenger rail success (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tony-dutzik/the-little-train-that-cou_b_1236705.html)

It would take 5.5 hours travel at I-10 by 2050 even with 10 lanes between Phx-Tuc (http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/local/article_a6ee7960-f45f-11e0-9bc2-001cc4c002e0.html)
I'm gonna comment on a few of your posts here Farmerk:
1) I hope they don't use eminent domain to get land for Grand Canyon University. First off, it's for a private university, not a public one so I don't know if that would be a conflict. Second, I'm not a fan of eminent domain. I think it's unfair, not very moral and easily abused. I know the 5th Amendment allows it, but I also think it can conflict with the 4th Amendment.

2) I agree with you, that I don't see Tucson ever building any freeways. Unfortunately, for the area already built that prospect has already passed, I think. I could maybe see them being proactive and building something in the southern part of the metro area, maybe connecting I-10 & I-19 in the future (that's going to be where a lot of the future growth, for the city and the metro, will be). There is talk of building another interstate from Tucson to the west-valley area of the Phoenix metro (maybe part of a future I-11 to Vegas) that would possibly stretch to I-19 and then over to I-10 east of Sahuarita and Green Valley (out towards Vail). I do disagree with you when you say that Broadway might not be widened to 6 lanes. Just because Steve K doesn't want it, too bad. The area needs it (that is a bottleneck) and it's part of the voter-approved RTA. To not build it they would have to hold another election to approve it not being built, if I'm not mistaken.

3) I filled out a submission to the ADOT rail study (and I believe I put a link on here and urged others to do the same). I told them I loved the idea of rail to Phoenix, just not the rail they are proposing. I want high-speed rail (HSR) between the 2 metro areas. If I'm not mistaken most of their routes were on rail lines already built, which is going to slow down freight (and Union Pacific has already said they plan on increasing the number of freight trains through the area) and the passenger trains. If they do this, and I hope they do, they need dedicated HSR on dedicated HSR lines.

4) While the thought of a 5 & 1/2 hour commute to Phoenix scares me, I don't know that I believe this will happen, even if we have a 10 lane interstate (and we know that probably won't happen, we still have 2 lanes for long stretches and it's taking forever to widen other stretches to 3 lanes) between Tucson and Phoenix in 2050. I think a lot of that data for population projections came before the economy crashed when they thought Pinal might become the next Riverside/San Bernardino, California (Inland Empire - IE). The growth that was starting all but stopped. Home prices crashed and there are all but no jobs in that area. Gas is rising and it's expensive to drive to Phoenix and/or Tucson to go to work. I think we will see the Sun Corridor Megalopolis some day, but I don't know that Pinal will be as built us as some thought anytime soon. Check out America2050.org (http://america2050.org/) for some good info on the Sun Corridor (and all the other megalopolis' around the country). Another good website to check out is transportpolitic.com (http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/). There used to be another good site, the Infrastructuralist, but it shut down a year or so ago.

[ComplotDesigner]

Meanwhile at the Level. 02-24-2013

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/6804/img2114ey.jpg

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/3416/img2115i.jpg

[farmerk]

I'm gonna comment on a few of your posts here Farmerk:
1) I hope they don't use eminent domain to get land for Grand Canyon University. First off, it's for a private university, not a public one so I don't know if that would be a conflict. Second, I'm not a fan of eminent domain. I think it's unfair, not very moral and easily abused. I know the 5th Amendment allows it, but I also think it can conflict with the 4th Amendment.

2) I agree with you, that I don't see Tucson ever building any freeways. Unfortunately, for the area already built that prospect has already passed, I think. I could maybe see them being proactive and building something in the southern part of the metro area, maybe connecting I-10 & I-19 in the future (that's going to be where a lot of the future growth, for the city and the metro, will be). There is talk of building another interstate from Tucson to the west-valley area of the Phoenix metro (maybe part of a future I-11 to Vegas) that would possibly stretch to I-19 and then over to I-10 east of Sahuarita and Green Valley (out towards Vail). I do disagree with you when you say that Broadway might not be widened to 6 lanes. Just because Steve K doesn't want it, too bad. The area needs it (that is a bottleneck) and it's part of the voter-approved RTA. To not build it they would have to hold another election to approve it not being built, if I'm not mistaken.

3) I filled out a submission to the ADOT rail study (and I believe I put a link on here and urged others to do the same). I told them I loved the idea of rail to Phoenix, just not the rail they are proposing. I want high-speed rail (HSR) between the 2 metro areas. If I'm not mistaken most of their routes were on rail lines already built, which is going to slow down freight (and Union Pacific has already said they plan on increasing the number of freight trains through the area) and the passenger trains. If they do this, and I hope they do, they need dedicated HSR on dedicated HSR lines.

4) While the thought of a 5 & 1/2 hour commute to Phoenix scares me, I don't know that I believe this will happen, even if we have a 10 lane interstate (and we know that probably won't happen, we still have 2 lanes for long stretches and it's taking forever to widen other stretches to 3 lanes) between Tucson and Phoenix in 2050. I think a lot of that data for population projections came before the economy crashed when they thought Pinal might become the next Riverside/San Bernardino, California (Inland Empire - IE). The growth that was starting all but stopped. Home prices crashed and there are all but no jobs in that area. Gas is rising and it's expensive to drive to Phoenix and/or Tucson to go to work. I think we will see the Sun Corridor Megalopolis some day, but I don't know that Pinal will be as built us as some thought anytime soon. Check out America2050.org (http://america2050.org/) for some good info on the Sun Corridor (and all the other megalopolis' around the country). Another good website to check out is transportpolitic.com (http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/). There used to be another good site, the Infrastructuralist, but it shut down a year or so ago.

Thanks for those links. Anything could happen with regards to using eminent domain but you're right, I don't see using eminent domain for GCU. I don't even know why I added those words...excitement probably? I'm with you with using a real HSR between Tucson-Phx with new tracks ...and Phx-LA-LV . It's a straight shot so it will be fast.

As for Steve K. , I think he just has the biggest mouth at city hall. Yes, the Broadway stretch is needed to avoid using downtown as an I-10 ramp...used downtown links instead. I don't know what needs to get this Broadway rd widened officially, city council vote? If that's the case, it will pass.

[farmerk]

Meanwhile at the Level. 02-24-2013
...
http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/3416/img2115i.jpg

Thanks for posting. Those photos are a cure to my other personal addiction.

[Ted Lyons]

Meanwhile at the Level. 02-24-2013

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/6804/img2114ey.jpg

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/3416/img2115i.jpg

:D So, within the next few months, both of those buildings should begin construction.

[Patrick S]

Thanks for those links. Anything could happen with regards to using eminent domain but you're right, I don't see using eminent domain for GCU. I don't even know why I added those words...excitement probably? I'm with you with using a real HSR between Tucson-Phx with new tracks ...and Phx-LA-LV . It's a straight shot so it will be fast.

As for Steve K. , I think he just has the biggest mouth at city hall. Yes, the Broadway stretch is needed to avoid using downtown as an I-10 ramp...used downtown links instead. I don't know what needs to get this Broadway rd widened officially, city council vote? If that's the case, it will pass.
I don't think they need any more action to widen Broadway. It's part of the RTA, not the city, and it will be done. The only thing that can stop it is if they brought that specific project up for a vote to the whole county (since that is who passed the RTA) and they voted to not build it. All the city could do is vote to not fund their portion of it, but that would just mean that the RTA would have to find other funding - it would still have to be built. The RTA is basically a law or contract that Pima County voted on, and passed. To change anything on it (i.e. - not build something that was proposed) would take another county-wide vote.

As for Steve, he doesn't bother me all that much. He really did when I wanted the hotel built and he was the one that spearheaded the no vote on it, but now that I look back it was probably best that the city didn't put any money into it (I still want it built, but without public funding). Even when he was a Republican I didn't mind him. I didn't, and still don't, agree with much of what he wants, says or thinks, but I actually respect him for sticking to his principles and expressing views that are not always popular (much the same way I felt about McCain before he sold his principles out the window midway thru and late in Bush's 2nd term to win the GOP nomination). I honestly think he does was he thinks is best for Tucson, and that's all we can ask of him.

[ComplotDesigner]

:D So, within the next few months, both of those buildings should begin construction.

Yup, also last week I noticed that construction has begun where Walmart at el Con is supposed to be and I guess its PetSmart.

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/5923/elcon.jpg

[Patrick S]

Meanwhile at the Level. 02-24-2013

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/6804/img2114ey.jpg

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/3416/img2115i.jpg
Like the pictures. Looking good. Drove downtown today and they're putting the finishing siding (plaster or stucco, or whatever) on the Cadence building downtown. Also drove past 1 E. Broadway where they're working on the first floor. Though I would have loved this building and Cadence to be taller, what really impresses me is the fact that both of these are right up against the streets and they give it a feel of a much denser city. Reminds me, a little, of a European city (like Paris, below) where there are lots of 5-8 story buildings packed together. Of course, those aren't in their downtowns, those are just in their regular neighborhoods. I guess you gotta start somewhere, and taking two parking lots and putting buildings on them is something.
http://www.earth-photography.com/photos/Countries/France/France_Paris_ChampsElysees.jpg

[Patrick S]

Yup, also last week I noticed that construction has begun where Walmart at el Con is supposed to be and I guess its PetSmart.

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/5923/elcon.jpg
I think those are separate things. The PetSmart is only 14,000 sq. feet (http://plansscope.construction.com/Petsmart_Store_2363-DR_6_201200698046.aspx) (the WalMart space is 100,000 sq. feet). The WalMart should be under construction (http://www.wildcat.arizona.edu/article/2012/09/new-walmart-may-be-go-to-for-students).

[Ritarancher]

I feel the need to comment on a few things

GCU
From what I know, GCU is growing rapidly and I believe it's the largest private university in Arizona. It sounds like its more like a public university than Pima is. Somebody said that Yuma needs help with jobs and placing a university there would have little effect on the currently unemployed people. I doubt that any of them are qualified to be a professor and moved to Yuma to find a job working as a professor.
IMO some good places for that university would be the empty lot south of I-10, west of kino and east of country club. Yes it's not in the best side of town but it would definitely help the area ALOT. just like how the bridges did. Another spot could be ,like how somebody mentioned, in the Rita Ranch bio park. A last spot seems like it might be a little crazy but placing it just south of the future Cushing Street could really help downtown development (needing more student housing) and adding to the streetcars daily ridership and adding to the customers that will be passing through all the resturants and stores downtown.


5 hour commute by 2050
Prior to 08 housing developers were placing houses EVERYWHERE and a lot of times, in the middle of nowhere. There were predictions that Casa Grande was going to be the same size as Tucson by 2050. After the economic crash and spoke in gas prices I think that most estimates assume that casa grande will never reach the size. What I've noticed too is that housin developments within city limits (ex; Civano, Rancho Valencia, Sierra Morado, Sycamore Park) have been completed a lot faster than those in vail and Sahuarita. I drove by Madera highlands and was surprised at how many empty lots are still for sale. I'm doubting that people will colonize interstate 10 between Tucson and phoenix now. I'm not going to e surprised to see more mass transit systems be put in place in the cities.

[Patrick S]

I feel the need to comment on a few things

GCU
From what I know, GCU is growing rapidly and I believe it's the largest private university in Arizona. It sounds like its more like a public university than Pima is. Somebody said that Yuma needs help with jobs and placing a university there would have little effect on the currently unemployed people. I doubt that any of them are qualified to be a professor and moved to Yuma to find a job working as a professor.
IMO some good places for that university would be the empty lot south of I-10, west of kino and east of country club. Yes it's not in the best side of town but it would definitely help the area ALOT. just like how the bridges did. Another spot could be ,like how somebody mentioned, in the Rita Ranch bio park. A last spot seems like it might be a little crazy but placing it just south of the future Cushing Street could really help downtown development (needing more student housing) and adding to the streetcars daily ridership and adding to the customers that will be passing through all the resturants and stores downtown.


5 hour commute by 2050
Prior to 08 housing developers were placing houses EVERYWHERE and a lot of times, in the middle of nowhere. There were predictions that Casa Grande was going to be the same size as Tucson by 2050. After the economic crash and spoke in gas prices I think that most estimates assume that casa grande will never reach the size. What I've noticed too is that housin developments within city limits (ex; Civano, Rancho Valencia, Sierra Morado, Sycamore Park) have been completed a lot faster than those in vail and Sahuarita. I drove by Madera highlands and was surprised at how many empty lots are still for sale. I'm doubting that people will colonize interstate 10 between Tucson and phoenix now. I'm not going to e surprised to see more mass transit systems be put in place in the cities.
I suggested that Yuma get a public university (AZ is going to eventually have to go past their 3 public universities if the population continues to grow). Yuma's population increased from 77,515 in 2000 to 93,064 in 2010 and the metro area increased from 160,026 in 2000 to 195,751 in 2010. It's actually the fifth biggest metro in AZ behind Phoenix, Tucson, Prescott (Yavapai County) and Lake Havasu City-Kingman (Mohave County). Prescott is pretty close to Phoenix and Mohave is pretty spread out geographically and split between 2 main cities (and has only less than 5,000 more people Yuma County). I think Yuma is the next logical place for a state university, as it's the largest city outside of the 2 main metro areas - but it's not being considered for GCU.

I think Pinal County may end up getting built up, somewhat, but not like everyone once thought. I actually think something like HSR (between Phoenix and Tucson) or even commuter rail into Pinal county from Phoenix would help the growth of Pinal County than just the I-10 widening. With gas prices going higher each year people are only going to want to live out there if they can get to jobs in the 2 metro areas cheaply. That is, unless they just want to rely on only retired people for their growth and have only grocery stores, medical supply centers and hospitals (and nursing homes/rehab centers) for jobs.

[farmerk]

This is how I envision Tucson by 2050
http://www.earth-photography.com/photos/Countries/France/France_Paris_ChampsElysees.jpg

with at least 1/3 of Tucson filled with 5-8 floor buildings outside downtown. Downtown will have taller buildings, of course. Maybe, another pocket of high rises at Kolb/I-10. In front of the buildings will be parking lots with parking meters/electric charging stations powered by solar panels. The modern street car will be the most popular mode of transportation. And Tucson will have an advance water collection system.

Since 2008, Tucson has required new commercial developments to meet at least half of their landscaping needs with harvested rainwater (http://azstarnet.com/news/local/university-of-arizona-students-installing-new-rainwater-harvesting-systems/article_95f6d985-3ef9-5a33-a544-52d06f331bef.html)

As for GC Univ. locating "just south of the future Cushing Street" , that would be a first choice for me. It's not crazy at all, IMHO.

I used to live in Casa Grande and travel to Phoenix metro for work ( 2 year period ). I even know a few friends who travel to Phx from Tucson at least 3 times a week for work. So when that HSR gets implemented and Phx/Tucson would have their local rails positioned besides the HSR depot, that would pretty much help a lot of people out.

[Ted Lyons]

Not too much difference, but the Arizona Stadium webcam is back online.

http://www.pdc.arizona.edu/webcam/NorthEndZone/NEZ-LiveUpdate.jpg?

[Ted Lyons]

And here's the new camera for the FieldTurf replacement.

http://www.pdc.arizona.edu/webcam/footballfield.aspx

[ProfessorMole]

Got a quick shot of The Hub area. They cleared it out pretty quickly. Most of the debris is gone over where Park Ave. will sit too.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BEDhw7tCYAASSnW.jpg

[Ritarancher]

With both buildings being about the same size and having an expected completion date in August of next year, which do you think will be finished first? I'm putting my money on The Hub, you?
One more thing, for it's height Level seems like a very wide building or is it average,

[Patrick S]

Downtown underpass will have park on top (http://azstarnet.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/downtown-underpass-will-have-park-on-top/article_8f317b7f-8e1b-5626-9253-b38fe540a331.html)

Becky Pallack Arizona Daily Star

A future northern gateway to downtown Tucson will include the area's first deck park.

A quarter-acre park will sit atop the 2-foot-thick concrete deck of an underpass, where traffic will flow beneath the park and the Union Pacific Railroad tracks, near the North Ninth Avenue-West Sixth Street intersection.

It's part of the $76 million Downtown Links project, which will connect Barraza-Aviation Parkway to Interstate 10.

The project is funded by the Regional Transportation Authority and managed by the city of Tucson.

The deck park will cost a minimum of $2.7 million, said Michael Bertram, associate vice president of HDR Engineering Inc., which conducted a deck park feasibility study.

That doesn't include the cost of landscaping, shade structures and other features.

A pedestrian bridge that would have cost $1.2 million also was considered, but the Tucson Department of Transportation, the Dunbar Spring Neighborhood and other downtown neighborhoods prefer the deck park plan as an attractive amenity that helps compensate the neighborhoods for traffic congestion and train noise, said city project manager Tom Fisher.

The park will include a neighborhood gathering place, a walkway and a bike path.

Other features will be chosen by a subcommittee of the Downtown Links Citizen Advisory Committee.

Sculptural shade structures, a playground, a dog run, gardens, art and a place for a coffee cart or food truck were among the features they discussed Monday.

The park also could accommodate some long-standing neighborhood activities, such as bike-in movies and community meals.

Who will maintain the space and where people from outside the neighborhood might park are problems that need to be solved by the subcommittee before the city can move forward with the park's final design.

The city's schedule calls for the design of Downtown Links Phases 3 and 4 to be complete in January 2015 and for construction to begin later that year.

Phase 1, which improved drainage in the Fourth Avenue area, is complete. Phase 2, which will improve St. Mary's Road between I-10 and Main Avenue, is under construction.

[ComplotDesigner]

COURTESY OF WHEAT SCHARF ASSOCIATES

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/4044/512c1b76ccfd7preview620.jpg

[farmerk]

With both buildings being about the same size and having an expected completion date in August of next year, which do you think will be finished first? I'm putting my money on The Hub, you?
One more thing, for it's height Level seems like a very wide building or is it average,

I think the height/width proportions and design of the buildings are just about right. The HUB and Park Ave. will be done the same time.

They both have first floor retail and underground parking which I like. If there will be outside parking, I hope it's a parallel metered parking space. I feel more density if a building doesn't have a large parking lot in front of the building. That's what I felt when passing by the Cadence - feels good and feels so anti-western (surprising for an iconic western town like Tucson).

Never been to Paris but my understanding is that each city block has at least a grocery store, cafe, bar, ... amenities needed for human beings. Hope that becomes a standard in Tucson.

I also like the idea of the streetcar having it's own reserved lane since Tucson will never have crosstown freeways. Hate driving in Tucson ... too many horrible drivers. I rode the light rail in Phoenix a few times and the trains we're always packed. It's so convenient in that you buy a ticket at those automated machines and just get in the train without showing your ticket to the driver (there's a sensor someplace). You can take your bike besides the seats inside the train instead of out front like the buses here in Tucson.

I like that park over 6th st/9th ave. I wished the same at 6th st/Highland.

Side note: Euclid between Broadway and Speedways badly needs a brand new road. Traffic is always heavy in that area and deserves priority.

[Anqrew]

construction starting late 2015 for the Downtown Links? thats basically 3 more years...

[southtucsonboy77]

construction starting late 2015 for the Downtown Links? thats basically 3 more years...

The project is being done in phases..so technically Phase 1 has been completed (big drainage portion by 4th Ave), Phase 2 is the piece currently under construction from I-10 to Main, and then the underpass is like Phase 3 or 4. I'm 35...so by the time this thing reaches Broadway I'm gonna be in my 40s! Geez, I remember this project in my 20s when I worked for ADOT and then PAG...it's definitely not what it originally was suppose to be.

If the ultimate ever gets built, which is to reach I-10 near the Valencia interchange I'll probably be in my 50s or 60s.

[southtucsonboy77]

To chime in on the Grand Canyon U conversation...my fiance graduated nursing school from there 2 Aprils ago. She loved it because they did not require any religious activity or courses. If I recall...she had to write a small 1 or 2 page essay on how religion touches her life.

[southtucsonboy77]

Lastly, I'm getting married Friday and honeymooning in New York City. I've never been there, but I finally get to fulfill a long-life dream...seeing and going up the Empire State Building!!!

[aznate27]

The project is being done in phases..so technically Phase 1 has been completed (big drainage portion by 4th Ave), Phase 2 is the piece currently under construction from I-10 to Main, and then the underpass is like Phase 3 or 4. I'm 35...so by the time this thing reaches Broadway I'm gonna be in my 40s! Geez, I remember this project in my 20s when I worked for ADOT and then PAG...it's definitely not what it originally was suppose to be.

If the ultimate ever gets built, which is to reach I-10 near the Valencia interchange I'll probably be in my 50s or 60s.

Do you remember that the original draft had a bridge going over Broadway at Aviation with off ramps to Broadway?? I still don't see the logic in not building the bridge or why they scrapped it?

Congrats by the way on your wedding...

[southtucsonboy77]

Do you remember that the original draft had a bridge going over Broadway at Aviation with off ramps to Broadway?? I still don't see the logic in not building the bridge or why they scrapped it?

Congrats by the way on your wedding...

I remember when they proposed a mini-interchange at St. Mary's...and the alignment running through our Warehouse "district". This was ADOT's baby for a long time. Of course us crazy Tucsonans rejected the downtown bypass...in addition to the crosstown freeway.

And thank you! (I gotta find a good sportsbar to watch the AZ/UCLA game)

[Patrick S]

Lastly, I'm getting married Friday and honeymooning in New York City. I've never been there, but I finally get to fulfill a long-life dream...seeing and going up the Empire State Building!!!
Congrats on the nuptials. New York's cool - I wouldn't mind visiting again, but I definitely wouldn't want to live there. I was there on my 16th birthday, in 1994. It was July and the World Cup was going on. I remember a bunch of people were watching one of the matches in the lobby of our hotel. Anyways, we went up as high as we could in the Empire State Building. It was cool. We also went onto the roof of one of the World Trade Towers. I can't remember which one had access to the roof - the north or south tower - but it was cool. I mean, you were on the roof of the 2nd tallest building in the world (at the time). I've also been to the highest point possible in the Willis (Sear's) Tower in Chicago, but I was too young to really remember much of it, and finally when I was like 27 or so I got the guts to go up into the Arch in St. Louis. The way it is angled, you are looking out to the east (towards Illinois), but also kinda straight down. It was freaky but cool.

[Thirsty]

Got a quick shot of The Hub area. They cleared it out pretty quickly. Most of the debris is gone over where Park Ave. will sit too.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BEDhw7tCYAASSnW.jpg

The mosque is in a pretty bad spot now. I hope they can move somewhere else around campus, maybe the next greek house that gets razed, idk.

They run a school there too, and it seems like an increasingly inconvenient place to have people coming and going. And then there is the wasted economic potential.

Sadly, there is also the issue of having drunks towering over a mosque. I always heard the LDS complex (placed next to a dorm) had issues with the ignorant things people do from time to time. Muslims aren't exactly treated like royalty in America.

[farmerk]

^^^ Wonder if they considered moving to another Tucson location? This might be more difficult to relocate since it's a (large) religious church not a strip mall.

Congratulations southtucsonboy77 . How about sharing some photos (when your back) of my favorite all time skyscraper - Empire State Building. Always wondered what it looks like inside. Or what it looks like close by.

[aznate27]

^^^ Wonder if they considered moving to another Tucson location? This might be more difficult to relocate since it's a (large) religious church not a strip mall.

Congratulations southtucsonboy77 . How about sharing some photos (when your back) of my favorite all time skyscraper - Empire State Building. Always wondered what it looks like inside. Or what it looks like close by.

It's a very cool building! I was there way back in '93, amazing view from the top! I also had the chance to go to the observation floor of the World Trade Center, this was several months after the first bombing. I feel blessed I had that chance now that they are tragically gone:(

[farmerk]

It's a very cool building! I was there way back in '93, amazing view from the top! I also had the chance to go to the observation floor of the World Trade Center, this was several months after the first bombing. I feel blessed I had that chance now that they are tragically gone:(

Never got tired with the Empire State's design. It's as timeless as the Eiffel Tower or the Vatican. I remember when 9/11 happened, I thought the WTC could withstand those planes having remembered a large plane hit the Empire State few decades back.

[Ted Lyons]

Ugh.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=4536828&postcount=6

[omarainza]

Ugh.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=4536828&postcount=6

ahahahahahaha :haha: AHAAHAHAHAHAA sorry but i found that funny, not that its ok tho since the new development is bringing life back in. we cant blame him :)

also i drove by 5broadway yesterday and that first floor came by fast. it looks dead close to the street tho, i wonder if theyll be able to streetscape its sidewalk :(

[farmerk]

^^^ plinko's comment was in 2009. I guess we'll gonna have to wait and see if downtown is still "some dead hollowed out office park" in a few years ... hard to judge now because of all the construction, proposed projects and still tepid economy.

http://www.tucsonweekly.com/tucson/praying-for-time/Content?oid=3654062 , here's an update of the Broadway rd expansion and a church who's against it.

Fyi, Campbell rd was expanded to 6 from 4 lanes between Grant rd and Speedway blvd about 10 yrs ago. I think that was the same time voters turn down a crosstown fwy at Grant rd.

[Ted Lyons]

ahahahahahaha :haha: AHAAHAHAHAHAA sorry but i found that funny, not that its ok tho since the new development is bringing life back in. we cant blame him :)

also i drove by 5broadway yesterday and that first floor came by fast. it looks dead close to the street tho, i wonder if theyll be able to streetscape its sidewalk :(

It just seemed like his opinion was formed five or ten years ago.

As for 1 East Broadway, the closer to the street, the better, IMO. I do think they'll have some sort of greenery, though.

Also, Penca, at 50 East Broadway, had heir soft opening yesterday. They posted a few pictures on Facebook and I drove by later in the day and the interior looks pretty awesome.

[Patrick S]

Good news, I guess, since our economy (both in the U.S. and especially here in Tucson) will not fully recover until the housing market comes back. I just don't get how the area around Tangerine Rd. is considered NW Pima County. NW Tucson metro maybe. Wouldn't NW Pima County be out by Ajo?

Far Northwest Tucson new-home market hot (http://azstarnet.com/business/local/far-northwest-tucson-new-home-market-hot/article_da30f980-4b07-5ac6-a6cf-e680e78e231c.html)
'TANGERINE CORRIDOR' DEVELOPMENT BOOMING AT 'ASTONISHING' RATE

Gabriela Rico Arizona Daily Star

A housing boom along the Tangerine Road corridor accounts for nearly 65 percent of new home construction in northwest Pima County.

No longer "out in the boonies," the area is likely five years away from being built out, land brokers say.

"This corridor will dominate the market activity in 2013," said Ginger Kneup, a Tucson residential market analyst and owner of Bright Future Real Estate Research LLC. "It's a matter of lot availability and accessibility. With the Twin Peaks Interchange (on Interstate 10) being finished, it's created a point of access to the area."

Homebuilders are gobbling up land in the corridor, roughly bounded by Linda Vista Boulevard to the Tortolita Mountains and Oracle Road to just west of Interstate 10.

Meritage Homes opened Hohokam Village, an 86-unit development in Rancho Vistoso, northwest of Tangerine and Oracle roads, in August. As of last week 60 homes had sold, said Jeffrey Grobstein, the homebuilder's desert region president.

Meritage will open three new communities in the area this month.

"The spectacular views are hard to beat," Grobstein said, pointing to construction workers on the roof of framed homes with the Catalinas' Pusch Ridge as a backdrop.

He said customers cite the low density and "straight shot" to I-10 as reasons for moving into the area on metro Tucson's far northwest side.

At the north end of Dove Mountain, Meritage is building streets and installing utilities for Los Saguaros at Dove Mountain, the master-planned community west of Tangerine and Twin Peaks roads that is receiving a lot of interest from homebuilders.

"We believe many people interested in this area - baby boomers, empty nesters - still are working or at least like the idea of being in an exclusive area, yet close enough to the employment corridors," said Jacque Petroulakis, a spokeswoman for Pulte Homes, which has just purchased land in Dove Mountain. "Plus, the considerable commercial and retail construction is a huge motivator to find opportunities for the demand we are seeing."

Pulte recently bought 170 lots in Dove Mountain for an active-adult Del Webb community. It is the first phase of a potential 650 lots on 208 acres in the development.

"The timing is ideal as the Tucson market is strengthening with housing demand outpacing supply," said John Chadwick, southwest area president for PulteGroup. "As Tucson continues to be a top retirement destination, this new Del Webb community will provide a prime in-town location."

Kneup said homebuilders are playing catch-up to homeowner demand and while the Tangerine corridor leads the market now, Vail, Sahuarita, Quail Creek and Green Valley are also experiencing a lot of building activity.

The challenge for builders, she said, will be to keep prices low in this still-recovering market as land and labor prices rise.

Will White, a land broker with Land Advisors Organization, said the rebirth of the Tangerine corridor is "astonishing."

He said there is $80 million worth of pending transactions with builders for land in the corridor.

"That's how sought-after that area is," White said. "All that needed to happen for that area to be a draw was for one homebuilder to be successful. It feeds on itself."

White said the large open spaces will continue to be a draw to the area for at least five years when it will likely be built out.

He pointed to 2009 as the year the corridor got renewed attention.

"Things were still pretty choppy with the economy," White said. "Homebuilders were able to buy lots at really reasonable prices."

With low land prices, builders were able to sell homes in the upper $100,000 range - something unheard of for that area in the housing market's peak.

Prices have climbed, but are still under $300,000 for many subdivisions.

"Not unlike any metro area coming out of a downturn there's always an area that's doing better," White said of the Tangerine corridor. "There's a lot of history to that area."

[Ritarancher]

Good news, I guess, since our economy (both in the U.S. and especially here in Tucson) will not fully recover until the housing market comes back. I just don't get how the area around Tangerine Rd. is considered NW Pima County. NW Tucson metro maybe. Wouldn't NW Pima County be out by Ajo?

Far Northwest Tucson new-home market hot (http://azstarnet.com/business/local/far-northwest-tucson-new-home-market-hot/article_da30f980-4b07-5ac6-a6cf-e680e78e231c.html)
'TANGERINE CORRIDOR' DEVELOPMENT BOOMING AT 'ASTONISHING' RATE

Gabriela Rico Arizona Daily Star

A housing boom along the Tangerine Road corridor accounts for nearly 65 percent of new home construction in northwest Pima County.

No longer "out in the boonies," the area is likely five years away from being built out, land brokers say.

"This corridor will dominate the market activity in 2013," said Ginger Kneup, a Tucson residential market analyst and owner of Bright Future Real Estate Research LLC. "It's a matter of lot availability and accessibility. With the Twin Peaks Interchange (on Interstate 10) being finished, it's created a point of access to the area."

Homebuilders are gobbling up land in the corridor, roughly bounded by Linda Vista Boulevard to the Tortolita Mountains and Oracle Road to just west of Interstate 10.

Meritage Homes opened Hohokam Village, an 86-unit development in Rancho Vistoso, northwest of Tangerine and Oracle roads, in August. As of last week 60 homes had sold, said Jeffrey Grobstein, the homebuilder's desert region president.

Meritage will open three new communities in the area this month.

"The spectacular views are hard to beat," Grobstein said, pointing to construction workers on the roof of framed homes with the Catalinas' Pusch Ridge as a backdrop.

He said customers cite the low density and "straight shot" to I-10 as reasons for moving into the area on metro Tucson's far northwest side.

At the north end of Dove Mountain, Meritage is building streets and installing utilities for Los Saguaros at Dove Mountain, the master-planned community west of Tangerine and Twin Peaks roads that is receiving a lot of interest from homebuilders.

"We believe many people interested in this area - baby boomers, empty nesters - still are working or at least like the idea of being in an exclusive area, yet close enough to the employment corridors," said Jacque Petroulakis, a spokeswoman for Pulte Homes, which has just purchased land in Dove Mountain. "Plus, the considerable commercial and retail construction is a huge motivator to find opportunities for the demand we are seeing."

Pulte recently bought 170 lots in Dove Mountain for an active-adult Del Webb community. It is the first phase of a potential 650 lots on 208 acres in the development.

"The timing is ideal as the Tucson market is strengthening with housing demand outpacing supply," said John Chadwick, southwest area president for PulteGroup. "As Tucson continues to be a top retirement destination, this new Del Webb community will provide a prime in-town location."

Kneup said homebuilders are playing catch-up to homeowner demand and while the Tangerine corridor leads the market now, Vail, Sahuarita, Quail Creek and Green Valley are also experiencing a lot of building activity.

The challenge for builders, she said, will be to keep prices low in this still-recovering market as land and labor prices rise.

Will White, a land broker with Land Advisors Organization, said the rebirth of the Tangerine corridor is "astonishing."

He said there is $80 million worth of pending transactions with builders for land in the corridor.

"That's how sought-after that area is," White said. "All that needed to happen for that area to be a draw was for one homebuilder to be successful. It feeds on itself."

White said the large open spaces will continue to be a draw to the area for at least five years when it will likely be built out.

He pointed to 2009 as the year the corridor got renewed attention.

"Things were still pretty choppy with the economy," White said. "Homebuilders were able to buy lots at really reasonable prices."

With low land prices, builders were able to sell homes in the upper $100,000 range - something unheard of for that area in the housing market's peak.

Prices have climbed, but are still under $300,000 for many subdivisions.

"Not unlike any metro area coming out of a downturn there's always an area that's doing better," White said of the Tangerine corridor. "There's a lot of history to that area."

I like the way that marana is come together, it's just an extended Tucson. I drove to Phoenix today and I am glad that developers are slowing down progress in casa grande. Casa Grande leaves a bad impression of Arizona. It's a BARREN WASTELAND. Most people in casa grande are also employees of businesses in either Tucson or Phoenix. Gas prices are probably killing these people. On top of being ugly casa grande is just a boring place to live. That's why developers are seeking gold in the cities. I know that 90% of my neighborhood (I-10 and kolb) was built in 2006 or 07 but it all stopped untill last October and now we're a finished neighborhood. Competition between housing developers is at a good stage right now , too bad they're run by idiots who will mass produce new communities and ruin the housing market again. Tucson and Phoenix will continue to grow and casa grande will remain a terrible place to live.

[farmerk]

Casa Grande hasn't changed much since I last visited 2-3 yrs ago. There's this new hospital and a few corporate retail close to I-10 and very few corporate housing. It's probably more of a place to raise a family or retire. Yep, it's very boring.

I have no problem with corporations mass producing houses except that I wished they're more creative with their houses - they look the same and the quality of the houses are horrible. I visited one of my friend's corporate pre-fab home and I just couldn't wait to leave her house. I wished these new residential blocks would be cut in half to make it feel walkable.

I think of all the cities in AZ, Tucson has the most potential to be a top tier city given it's natural environment and rich history. The weather is not perfect but not bad either.

[Ritarancher]

Casa Grande hasn't changed much since I last visited 2-3 yrs ago. There's this new hospital and a few corporate retail close to I-10 and very few corporate housing. It's probably more of a place to raise a family or retire. Yep, it's very boring.

I have no problem with corporations mass producing houses except that I wished they're more creative with their houses - they look the same and the quality of the houses are horrible. I visited one of my friend's corporate pre-fab home and I just couldn't wait to leave her house. I wished these new residential blocks would be cut in half to make it feel walkable.

I think of all the cities in AZ, Tucson has the most potential to be a top tier city given it's natural environment and rich history. The weather is not perfect but not bad either.

For a desert we've got it good. No other desert gets as much rain as Tucson. With all the rain comes desert plants and animals, in large amounts. Our environment is nice but it's not a green forest that people like. And raising a family in casa grande? I'd kill myself. There's barely enough things to do in Tucson right now but casa grande....

[farmerk]

For a desert we've got it good. No other desert gets as much rain as Tucson. With all the rain comes desert plants and animals, in large amounts. Our environment is nice but it's not a green forest that people like. And raising a family in casa grande? I'd kill myself. There's barely enough things to do in Tucson right now but casa grande....

I read someplace in the internets that Tucson is the or one of the wettest deserts in the world. Green forest? What's wrong with Mt. Lemon or the surrounding mountains in Tucson? I can't think of any place where you have desert and green forest side by side. And biking in Tucson is paradise.

Casa Grande will be a great place to raise a family if the kids are highly delinquent. I know of a family from San Diego that moved to CG because they have 'troubled' kids. CG is like a prison for those kids.

[aznate27]

I read someplace in the internets that Tucson is the or one of the wettest deserts in the world. Green forest? What's wrong with Mt. Lemon or the surrounding mountains in Tucson? I can't think of any place where you have desert and green forest side by side. And biking in Tucson is paradise.

Casa Grande will be a great place to raise a family if the kids are highly delinquent. I know of a family from San Diego that moved to CG because they have 'troubled' kids. CG is like a prison for those kids.
Did you ever see the episode of "Life After People" when they talked about Southern Arizona? They said that it would turn back into a much greener dessert than it is today. The washes would flow again over time as the water table below was replenished with no people using it.

[Thirsty]

I read someplace in the internets that Tucson is the or one of the wettest deserts in the world. Green forest? What's wrong with Mt. Lemon or the surrounding mountains in Tucson? I can't think of any place where you have desert and green forest side by side. And biking in Tucson is paradise.


I read something similar like scientist defining a desert as anywhere receiving 8 or fewer inches of rain/year. With 150% of that, Tucson is a special case because of the low humidity and elevation. In any case, compared to other deserts, So. AZ is the amazon.

[Thirsty]

This is off topic, but every climate projection I've read has Tucson progressively turning into Phoenix/Yuma/Baghdad in the coming decades which makes sense except for... when ocean temperatures are high, the pacific low that causes the monsoon moves south and Tucson gets record rainfall.

Like everyone else on the internet; I've earned an advanced degree in fill in the blank from Wikipedia University.

Can anyone explain why my amateur meteorology is missing the big picture?

[phxSUNSfan]

This is off topic, but every climate projection I've read has Tucson progressively turning into Phoenix/Yuma/Baghdad in the coming decades which makes sense except for... when ocean temperatures are high, the pacific low that causes the monsoon moves south and Tucson gets record rainfall.

Like everyone else on the internet; I've earned an advanced degree in fill in the blank from Wikipedia University.

Can anyone explain why my amateur meteorology is missing the big picture?

Scientists expect the amount of land affected by drought to grow by mid-century—and water resources in affected areas to decline as much as 30 percent. These changes occur partly because of an expanding atmospheric circulation pattern known as the Hadley Cell—in which warm air in the tropics rises, loses moisture to tropical thunderstorms, and descends in the subtropics as dry air. As jet streams continue to shift to higher latitudes, and storm patterns shift along with them, semi-arid and desert areas are expected to expand.
http://www.climatehotmap.org/global-warming-effects/drought.html

Also, Phoenix is roughly in the same boat as Tucson. Phoenix averages over 8" of rain a year while Tucson gets around 12". I have also heard that 10" or less is sometimes used to define a desert. Most scientist today do not use these hard figures to describe deserts as there are many subcategories. The Sonoran Desert is mostly a subtropical/semi-arid desert and is the wettest desert in the world...with the exception of some regions like Yuma which only receives about 3". However, you are wrong about Bagdad, AZ (unless you meant Baghdad, Iraq)...it actually gets more rain than Tucson and averages 14.4" a year (and 3" of snow per year). Phoenix, Tucson, and Bagdad receive much more rain than Las Vegas in the Mojave Desert. Vegas averages around 3.5" a year.

[Leo the Dog]

This is off topic, but every climate projection I've read has Tucson progressively turning into Phoenix/Yuma/Baghdad in the coming decades which makes sense except for... when ocean temperatures are high, the pacific low that causes the monsoon moves south and Tucson gets record rainfall.

Like everyone else on the internet; I've earned an advanced degree in fill in the blank from Wikipedia University.

Can anyone explain why my amateur meteorology is missing the big picture?

As for global warming: I'm not on the DOOM AND GLOOM boat. This is great for human development. We haven't changed much at all genetically in 50,000 years, yet look at what we've achieved since the last ice age melted away to a warmer Earth 10,000 years ago! This was only achieved due to a warmer Earth.

Just imagine all of Canada and Siberia open for human use. It now currently stands as un-usable waste-of-space land. Most land on Earth resides in the higher latitudes. Look at Europe today. Most of the population is close to western areas of the European continent, where the warmer gulf stream currents of the Atlantic insulate it from the frigid interior climate zones of Russia.

El Nino, the seasonal warming of Pacific waters, translates to more rainfall to the Southwest. Wouldn't you guys want a warming effect? Warmer temperatures = more water vapor that the atmosphere is physically able to hold before saturation = increased rain fall = evaporative cooling.

[Thirsty]

http://www.climatehotmap.org/global-warming-effects/drought.html

Also, Phoenix is roughly in the same boat as Tucson. Phoenix averages over 8" of rain a year while Tucson gets around 12". I have also heard that 10" or less is sometimes used to define a desert. Most scientist today do not use these hard figures to describe deserts as there are many subcategories. The Sonoran Desert is mostly a subtropical/semi-arid desert and is the wettest desert in the world...with the exception of some regions like Yuma which only receives about 3". However, you are wrong about Bagdad, AZ (unless you meant Baghdad, Iraq)...it actually gets more rain than Tucson and averages 14.4" a year (and 3" of snow per year). Phoenix, Tucson, and Bagdad receive much more rain than Las Vegas in the Mojave Desert. Vegas averages around 3.5" a year.

Yes I was referring to Iraq; as in progressively hotter and dryer starting with a move toward a Phoenix climate more immediately (hotter and dryer) and trending towards Iraq in 100+ year projections.

[farmerk]

Did you ever see the episode of "Life After People" when they talked about Southern Arizona? They said that it would turn back into a much greener dessert than it is today. The washes would flow again over time as the water table below was replenished with no people using it.

Nope, never seen it. I've been hearing about all kinds of talk about how much water Tucson has and they ranged from not enough to more than enough in the next 100 years or so with current population rate growth. A few experts are even honest enough to say 'We don't know'.

I'm always baffled when we can build miles and miles of canals or even oil pipelines and yet, we can't build a pipeline from Canada's excess 'fresh tasting' snow, Seattle/Portland/Alaska or the melting Arctic to distribute water all over.

Just want to plug this in :D , China's real estate market is about to burst (http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50142078n) .

[Ritarancher]

Environment Change
Since we're on this discussion lemme tell ya'll something. Me and my team down at the U of A have been extremely ALARMED by the changes in southern AZ for the past 8 years. There's a reason the government pays us to find out what would happen in a "life after people". While that show is accurate, it shows Phoenix, not Tucson. It says after people abandon their homes the dust will rise from empty lots, backyards and dried up lakes. What happened in 2008, was the exact thing, just in smaller amounts. The haboobs started coming like never before. The show did exaggerate their power, and the monsoon rains that turn them into mud (my poor uncle with a pool in Tempe). Those storms are rapidly reshaping the environment (between PHX and TUC). Last year we were very surprised that when testing soil in Eloy that dry sand particles (sand dunes style) were growing and were already two inches high. This sand was killing local plants and animals. It dried up many of the few oasis there was. Our estimates from 06 did not include a failed economy. We were in a panic to find out new future estimates. It was scary. Most of the very little vegetation along the interstate will die, exposing sand. That sand will act much like cement in the summer. Urban heat island will be a MAJOR problem between the cities with an average temps rising anywhere from 6-15 degrees.
The weirdest has yet to come. Tucson has the complete opposite coming. We have paved hundreds of square miles in the city. All that cement prevents water from going to the underwater aquifers, it will make more runoff. The architecture of the homes today also play a huge role in this overabundance of water coming our way. Houses today usually have a pitched roof, the water will runoff to the side of the house which has rolls in the soil so that it can flow into the road. The roads are designed so that they can flow into the washes. The washes are small trenches along the desert that are usually 6-10 inches wide and 6 inches deep that run towards the Santa Cruz. Those washes are not prepared for the new runoff. They erode a lot during each storm. More natural dams are created by the dirt and rocks pushed off. More oasis are made. Those oasis are soon surrounded by plants that are used to 1000 times less water. They plants only use some of the water but provide a canopy from the sun over the water and can help the oasis stay all year. These start adding up all over the place and soon the humidity rises just enough for one more storm to drop rain. More rain. The dams grow and so do the oasis and the humidity. The temperature can even drop 1 or 2 degrees because of this. More oasis, more mosquitoes and flies. Eventually the climate has changed just enough that we're not a desert. But the wildlife will say otherwise. All the plants we have now won't go away. In fact they'll be stronger than ever. Other plants will be unable to come in and reshape the landscape for about 150 years (if the changes are enough) because of our friend the Creosote Bush. The Creosote bush grows anywhere from death valley (they are the species with the oldest plant alive, 11,000 years old in an area that gets 3 inches of rain annually) to the farthest edge of New Mexico and Nevada. Why does this plant live in places where it gets 4times the water it needs? Because it has almost no competition. The plants roots send small toxins in the ground that make it very difficult for other plants to grow, including it's own species. It has dominated the landscape because of this, and it's range of adaptability. It can survive temperatures below zero and above 170. In places with more rain, it just grows better. Not until now does it have competition. It's competition comes from Lowes and the Home Depot. Those stores send thousands of plants that come from deserts that get almost NO rain. These plants also poison the ground. They love it here. (by the way more rain= more leaves which = more compost which = better soil) They are planted everywhere. Some species include the Argentine Mesquite and a species of Palo Verde and gum trees and ..... These trees are in heaven here. They are starting to get into the wild and are taller than the Velvet mesquite trees we have here. They make more leaves than the native velvet mesquites with less water. This will also help the oasis growing here. They are almost perfect for this environment, except for the wind. These trees come from a windless desert, when a strong monsoon storm comes they fall ( notice how velvet mesquites dont fall and argentine mesquites do) even if it's a well situated 60 year old tree. But natural selection will keep the strong ones alive. They will, like all desert plants, adapt very quickly and by 2100 will be the forest of Tucson. In 100 years we predict that a forest made up of Gum, Argentine Mesquites, Desert Cassia bushes and eucalyptus trees (sorry no Koalas) will be our desert forest. It's a hard idea to take in but it's very real. The only thing that will keep our temperatures up is cement and urban heat island. But even cement (the runoff and oasis maker) usually has a canopy of plants over it here in Tucson so it's hard to predict what our temperatures will be by 2100.
The downside of paving the desert is also the runoff. When the runoff goes through a wash that is completely surrounded by urban development, there's a problem. A lot of times our washes have been paved and are hard to erode, that will cause flooding. Another problem is erosion. The washes that can erode will and what ever sits on its banks will fall in. We are now taking that into consideration but were not in the 80s and earlier. The washes we build now have a lot of space for flooding and erosion. They don't have that much space on the Santa Cruze and other washes that go throughout midtown. It is nerve wrecking to watch the Santa Cruze be filled to the top after only a few inches of rain. Flooding will become more common in the future unless we start digging the preexisting washes deeper. (forgot to mention that more oasis= more ground water). We will get more problems to deal with. Its hard to tell if there has been more rain right now due to the minimal amounts of an increase it will have and the fact that droughts and rainy seasons exist. We need about fifteen years of data to figure that out.

Sorry if your confused. Yes I said that cement prevents water from turning into groundwater but then I said that it makes oasis that make more ground water. Yea it does. It's a really complex cycle of things contradicting itself and adding more steps along the process. The runoff will erode washes, create dams and oasis and forest before turning into groundwater rather than raining and going to the ground.


My wife and I share this account and have been for some time now, if younwere wondering :) . If you have any questions just ask, or if I made an error (not grammar) or a really confusing statement just tell me and I will clear it up and fix the mistake.

[phxSUNSfan]

Environment Change
Since we're on this discussion lemme tell ya'll something. Me and my team down at the U of A have been extremely ALARMED by the changes in southern AZ for the past 8 years...Tucson has the complete opposite coming.

You work for the Institute of the Environment at the UofA? If you do, you aren't on the same page as your fellow researchers at the UofA and ASU's Global Institute of Sustainability. Their models show that the Southwest, including Tucson, will become more arid and the water supply will continue to decrease. Tucson depends on the CAP for most of its drinking water (even more so than Phoenix) and does not have adequate supplies if the Western Drought continues on pace with shrinking snowpacks:

DROUGHT

Martin Hoerling, a federal meteorologist who spoke at the conference, said indications show this current drought is more likely due to cyclical causes than climate change. That's partly because the drop in rainfall over the past 30 years follows a very wet period, he said. The global climate studies used by the international climate change panel to project future climates showed no sign that a drying trend would occur this soon, he said. "This is not what the models say climate change will do at this point in history," said Hoerling, adding that the recent drought's strength appears consistent with natural phenomena such as El Niño and La Niña.

Yet this current drought has the "heavy fingerprint of warming," said the UA's Overpeck, since it is warmer than the known megadroughts. In recent years there's been increased springtime, northward movement of storm patterns away from this region - a phenomenon predicted by climate computer studies, he said.

"We had it this year very clearly when the storm tracks went north of Colorado and Nevada. Colorado had its driest spring in the instrumental record," he said. Because the Central Arizona Project bringing water to Tucson gets much of its supply from Northern states, "that matters big-time to us - more than what is going on down here," Overpeck said.

http://azstarnet.com/news/science/environment/is-drought-a-side-effect-of-sw-warming/article_e8d91f20-13dd-5aec-bd0e-9c9242c6cc2b.html

Phoenix actually has a vast supply of ground water...more than most places in the state: "Groundwater is a relatively abundant water supply with the median of reported well yields exceeding 1,000 gpm in the Phoenix and Pinal AMAs and exceeding 600 gpm in the other AMAs."
http://www.azwater.gov/azdwr/StatewidePlanning/WaterAtlas/ActiveManagementAreas/PlanningAreaOverview/WaterSupplyGroundwater.htm

You can read more about the Southwest and Climate Change at the UofA's website: http://www.southwestclimatechange.org/

And ASU's: http://sustainablecities.asu.edu/

[Thirsty]

You lost me right here

Environment Change More natural dams are created by the dirt and rocks pushed off. More oasis are made. Those oasis are soon surrounded by plants that are used to 1000 times less water.

I grew up playing in these washes, and I've never seen anything but a highway of sand. The only dam/oasis effect I ever saw was where the stream flowed under a roadway.

The oasis effect of these supposed dams seems reasonable; they sound like the 200-300 yards upstream of the Sabino Canyon dam. IMO the extent of change to the city's micro-climate sounds a bit extreme though. Overall, an interesting projection.


Now please excuse these thoughts on drainage:

The city is on a natural floodplain, but our drainage plan makes no sense for a desert. Routing runoff in such a way to quicken it's exit from the city makes more sense in Louisiana than Arizona. Seems to me (not a hydrologist) that slowing water in responsible ways is best for the city AND the valley's natural environment. Deepening and paving washes feels like prescribing band-aids for a tumor.

In addition to many, many more runoff basins and either mandating or offering heavy incentives for water harvesting; I've always been curious about the possibility of partial dams. A dam that is only 10-15% of the wash depth to retain necessary drainage. Picture a big speed bump but instead of slowing the flow its purpose is to create the oasis environments you describe.

Like before I welcome input, especially from anyone who can tell me why it wouldn't work.

[Ritarancher]

You work for the Institute of the Environment at the UofA? If you do, you aren't on the same page as your fellow researchers at the UofA and ASU's Global Institute of Sustainability. Their models show that the Southwest, including Tucson, will become more arid and the water supply will continue to decrease. Tucson depends on the CAP for most of its drinking water (even more so than Phoenix) and does not have adequate supplies if the Western Drought continues on pace with shrinking snowpacks:


http://azstarnet.com/news/science/environment/is-drought-a-side-effect-of-sw-warming/article_e8d91f20-13dd-5aec-bd0e-9c9242c6cc2b.html

Phoenix actually has a vast supply of ground water...more than most places in the state: "Groundwater is a relatively abundant water supply with the median of reported well yields exceeding 1,000 gpm in the Phoenix and Pinal AMAs and exceeding 600 gpm in the other AMAs."
http://www.azwater.gov/azdwr/StatewidePlanning/WaterAtlas/ActiveManagementAreas/PlanningAreaOverview/WaterSupplyGroundwater.htm

You can read more about the Southwest and Climate Change at the UofA's website: http://www.southwestclimatechange.org/

And ASU's: http://sustainablecities.asu.edu/

I don't work for the U of A as a profession, it's a weird way of explaining. My team and I, known as the Bachmeier team, meet up about 30 times a year when the EPA, UofA, Tucson Water, ADOT and other people who need to deal with the environment or want to see future predictions. We use the university's equipment and data often but other than that we don't deal with anybody there that much.

Thirsty
Yes the oasis effect seems drastic, it is barely noticeable because of constant plowing of desert land for new houses, and I was going 100 to 200 years in to the future in my description. If you take a look at google maps it's not too hard to find some oasis. You just got to look along the washes. I do agree that the wash system is not very appropriate for our city. That's why we constantly make giant holes along certain washes (ex. julian wash on kolb or wash on valencia and alvernon).

[omarainza]

Environment Change
Since we're on this discussion lemme tell ya'll something. Me and my team down at the U of A have been extremely ALARMED by the changes in southern AZ for the past 8 years. There's a reason the government pays us to find out what would happen in a "life after people". While that show is accurate, it shows Phoenix, not Tucson. It says after people abandon their homes the dust will rise from empty lots, backyards and dried up lakes. What happened in 2008, was the exact thing, just in smaller amounts. The haboobs started coming like never before. The show did exaggerate their power, and the monsoon rains that turn them into mud (my poor uncle with a pool in Tempe). Those storms are rapidly reshaping the environment (between PHX and TUC). Last year we were very surprised that when testing soil in Eloy that dry sand particles (sand dunes style) were growing and were already two inches high. This sand was killing local plants and animals. It dried up many of the few oasis there was. Our estimates from 06 did not include a failed economy. We were in a panic to find out new future estimates. It was scary. Most of the very little vegetation along the interstate will die, exposing sand. That sand will act much like cement in the summer. Urban heat island will be a MAJOR problem between the cities with an average temps rising anywhere from 6-15 degrees.
The weirdest has yet to come. Tucson has the complete opposite coming. We have paved hundreds of square miles in the city. All that cement prevents water from going to the underwater aquifers, it will make more runoff. The architecture of the homes today also play a huge role in this overabundance of water coming our way. Houses today usually have a pitched roof, the water will runoff to the side of the house which has rolls in the soil so that it can flow into the road. The roads are designed so that they can flow into the washes. The washes are small trenches along the desert that are usually 6-10 inches wide and 6 inches deep that run towards the Santa Cruz. Those washes are not prepared for the new runoff. They erode a lot during each storm. More natural dams are created by the dirt and rocks pushed off. More oasis are made. Those oasis are soon surrounded by plants that are used to 1000 times less water. They plants only use some of the water but provide a canopy from the sun over the water and can help the oasis stay all year. These start adding up all over the place and soon the humidity rises just enough for one more storm to drop rain. More rain. The dams grow and so do the oasis and the humidity. The temperature can even drop 1 or 2 degrees because of this. More oasis, more mosquitoes and flies. Eventually the climate has changed just enough that we're not a desert. But the wildlife will say otherwise. All the plants we have now won't go away. In fact they'll be stronger than ever. Other plants will be unable to come in and reshape the landscape for about 150 years (if the changes are enough) because of our friend the Creosote Bush. The Creosote bush grows anywhere from death valley (they are the species with the oldest plant alive, 11,000 years old in an area that gets 3 inches of rain annually) to the farthest edge of New Mexico and Nevada. Why does this plant live in places where it gets 4times the water it needs? Because it has almost no competition. The plants roots send small toxins in the ground that make it very difficult for other plants to grow, including it's own species. It has dominated the landscape because of this, and it's range of adaptability. It can survive temperatures below zero and above 170. In places with more rain, it just grows better. Not until now does it have competition. It's competition comes from Lowes and the Home Depot. Those stores send thousands of plants that come from deserts that get almost NO rain. These plants also poison the ground. They love it here. (by the way more rain= more leaves which = more compost which = better soil) They are planted everywhere. Some species include the Argentine Mesquite and a species of Palo Verde and gum trees and ..... These trees are in heaven here. They are starting to get into the wild and are taller than the Velvet mesquite trees we have here. They make more leaves than the native velvet mesquites with less water. This will also help the oasis growing here. They are almost perfect for this environment, except for the wind. These trees come from a windless desert, when a strong monsoon storm comes they fall ( notice how velvet mesquites dont fall and argentine mesquites do) even if it's a well situated 60 year old tree. But natural selection will keep the strong ones alive. They will, like all desert plants, adapt very quickly and by 2100 will be the forest of Tucson. In 100 years we predict that a forest made up of Gum, Argentine Mesquites, Desert Cassia bushes and eucalyptus trees (sorry no Koalas) will be our desert forest. It's a hard idea to take in but it's very real. The only thing that will keep our temperatures up is cement and urban heat island. But even cement (the runoff and oasis maker) usually has a canopy of plants over it here in Tucson so it's hard to predict what our temperatures will be by 2100.
The downside of paving the desert is also the runoff. When the runoff goes through a wash that is completely surrounded by urban development, there's a problem. A lot of times our washes have been paved and are hard to erode, that will cause flooding. Another problem is erosion. The washes that can erode will and what ever sits on its banks will fall in. We are now taking that into consideration but were not in the 80s and earlier. The washes we build now have a lot of space for flooding and erosion. They don't have that much space on the Santa Cruze and other washes that go throughout midtown. It is nerve wrecking to watch the Santa Cruze be filled to the top after only a few inches of rain. Flooding will become more common in the future unless we start digging the preexisting washes deeper. (forgot to mention that more oasis= more ground water). We will get more problems to deal with. Its hard to tell if there has been more rain right now due to the minimal amounts of an increase it will have and the fact that droughts and rainy seasons exist. We need about fifteen years of data to figure that out.

Sorry if your confused. Yes I said that cement prevents water from turning into groundwater but then I said that it makes oasis that make more ground water. Yea it does. It's a really complex cycle of things contradicting itself and adding more steps along the process. The runoff will erode washes, create dams and oasis and forest before turning into groundwater rather than raining and going to the ground.

I like the sound of this. Honestly, I was going to ask the same question. If we were to plant the city more to create a microclimate would it create more rainfall because of the shade and cooling. I have been observing the same effects on my property. When I moved in 2 years ago, it was a barren patch. Now, with a little water, the few plantings are established and the need for water is less since the trees cast shade and cool the area. The grass retains the water from runoff and allows my yard to soak it in which allows even less watering, all the dead leaves improve the soil structure and the roots help to break up the hardpan. My house stands out from my neighbors' and they all think I spend alot on water but I don't. If this is true, I'd like to see the whole city develop that kind of environment.

sorry to add to the off topic.

[farmerk]

RitaRancher, looks like you got a neat job.

I have a few questions to RitaRancher or anyone :
1) How does your group arrive to their conclusions/predictions/research? Do you guys used computer models executed in a supercomputer? Is there a lab where you re-create your predictions? Do you guys base your predictions on other research?

2) Do you think that Tucson has enough water to support it's growing population in the next 100 or 200 years? If not, is there a solution to supply Tucson with water the next 100 or 200 years?

Questions that have been tucked in my brain since I can remember.

[Ritarancher]

RitaRancher, looks like you got a neat job.

I have a few questions to RitaRancher or anyone :
1) How does your group arrive to their conclusions/predictions/research? Do you guys used computer models executed in a supercomputer? Is there a lab where you re-create your predictions? Do you guys base your predictions on other research?

2) Do you think that Tucson has enough water to support it's growing population in the next 100 or 200 years? If not, is there a solution to supply Tucson with water the next 100 or 200 years?

Questions that have been tucked in my brain since I can remember.

A lot of times we make conclusions based off of real cities or abandon sites( ghost towns, Chernobyl, abandoned properties) or just based on observations. For example we used googles historical imagery of Tucson and noticed the changes. An example is my neighborhood wash is what will become the airport wash ( the bridges over the Tucson spectrum cover this wash). The wash travels from the neighborhood to desert and them to the airport and Tucson spectrum. The desert wash immediently after my neighborhood has 7% more plant life than before and the plants are as tall as 25 feet tall. That's unnatural for the desert. I have a velvet mesquite in my yard and it's only 4 years old but the size of a 20 year old one in the desert. It got big because of watering and cultivation. The wild trees along the wash following my neighborhood have not been cultivated but they're just as tall. We also make predictions based off of weather trends. The lab we mostly use is at the UofA but the USGS also has good equipment.
Water use in 200 years? All I can say is I hope the team in San Diego cn figure out that way to turn salt water into freshwater. In 100 years we might be pushing the limits in the CAP but it should sill work with minor improvements .

[farmerk]

Water use in 200 years? All I can say is I hope the team in San Diego can figure out that way to turn salt water into freshwater.

Yes, hopefully, fusion reaction would be possible in 200 years ... I think so. That may be enough to supply power to the desalinization plant in San Diego (or was it Carlsbad) or anywhere.

[Schaeffa]

A post not about the environment: I was looking at the Engberg Anderson Architects website for info about One East Broadway (hoping to see floor plans and prices, but I guess it's too soon for that =P ) and I noticed that the render they have is a floor shorter than the one from the Star. Does anyone know if it got scaled back?

http://i48.tinypic.com/jq03rp.png
http://www.engberganderson.com/#/portfolio/projecttype/7/140/

[Ritarancher]

A post not about the environment: I was looking at the Engberg Anderson Architects website for info about One East Broadway (hoping to see floor plans and prices, but I guess it's too soon for that =P ) and I noticed that the render they have is a floor shorter than the one from the Star. Does anyone know if it got scaled back?

http://i48.tinypic.com/jq03rp.png
http://www.engberganderson.com/#/portfolio/projecttype/7/140/

It'd be too late to scale back but in this case it might have been a building with multiple renderings and we dont know which is going to be built. I'm going to have to guess that the taller one is going to be built, it looks ALOT nicer and I think I remember seeing a sign at the construction site with the taller rendering AND it has a tower crane so that might suggest some height. I hope the building didn't get scaled back to the smaller and duller rendering.

[farmerk]

Looks like the roof of One East Broadway has a helipad? Makes me wonder if the owners of that property want to build one floor cheap and sell later for more $$$. Not unusual, they did somewhat the same with the District on 5th and those west side housing developments (mercado).

[Ritarancher]

Off topic but California is building up. Both Los Angeles and San Fransisco have approved new skyscrapers that would become the city's tallest upon completion. In LA we've got the Wilshire Grand Tower. I saw some new renderings of it and I was drooling at the design. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/51/Wilshire_Grand_Center.jpg/220px-Wilshire_Grand_Center.jpg The building is going to be over 1,000 feet tall. In San Fransisco they're making the Transbay tower http://assets.inhabitat.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2012/10/pelli-clarke-pelli-transbay-tower-san-francisco.jpg Like any tower in San Fransisco it is just ok, nothing more nothing worse. This tower is also going to be over 1000 feet tall. Trends often start in California, hopefully Tucson can get in on some of this expansion. We definitely have caught on the shopping center trend from California (Cotaro Farms, Spectrum, Marketplace, Oro Valley Marketplace, El Con, Houghton Town Center to name a few).

[farmerk]

Wilshire and Transbay looks nice. The other Transbay finalist don't look bad either, http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Transbay-Terminal-tower-designs-have-chance-to-2510774.php#photo-2676199 . Love to see those built in Tucson. However, one building that I wished was never built is the Cadence. Passed by today and it looks like it's turning out to be worse than the rendering :yuck: . I'd be happy if the design were similar as the Sentinel Plaza or the new MLK building. After all the help the city gave to the developer(s), the developer(s) gave back a sub-par design and much shorter.

[Patrick S]

LA and SF are two entirely different beasts. First off, you have to realize the reason that both probably didn't grow up (as in height), especially in SF, is because of the possibility of earthquakes. I say especially in SF because, as I said, they are two different beasts. SF is very densely packed. There are 17,179.2 people per square mile in SF (still not NYC with 27,012.5 people per square mile - with 69,771 per square mile in Manhattan alone), while LA has 8,092 per square mile - less than half. This density is surely lowered by the fact that there is a mountain range that goes right through LA and there is land in the city limits that is not built on. The flip side to that, though, is that there is more land, if they can build on it, in LA and plenty right outside LA (to the north and west) that is undeveloped, that if can be built on could be annexed into the city. The point is that SF is boxed in on 3 sides by water and it is boxed in on the south by other cities. LA still has land (if it can be built on) in both the city limits and right next to it. LA doesn't need to grow up (height) in order to still grow, as much as SF does. Of course, I'm glad they are, but they just don't have to so much. SF, on the other hand, must grow upwards to keep growing, earthquakes be damned.

[Patrick S]

One last thing I wanted to mention, okay, really two. First, did anyone look at those SimCity 5 ads they had earlier? Used to love playing 1, 2 and 3000. Would love to get that game. Second, check out this link. It's for a solar roadway, that can light itself, defrost itself (for northern AZ) and provide electricity, among other things. This would be really cool and perfect for us here in AZ.
Here's the link: http://solarroadways.com/intro.shtml

[farmerk]

LA and SF are two entirely different beasts. First off, you have to realize the reason that both probably didn't grow up (as in height), especially in SF, is because of the possibility of earthquakes. I say especially in SF because, as I said, they are two different beasts. SF is very densely packed. There are 17,179.2 people per square mile in SF (still not NYC with 27,012.5 people per square mile - with 69,771 per square mile in Manhattan alone), while LA has 8,092 per square mile - less than half. This density is surely lowered by the fact that there is a mountain range that goes right through LA and there is land in the city limits that is not built on. The flip side to that, though, is that there is more land, if they can build on it, in LA and plenty right outside LA (to the north and west) that is undeveloped, that if can be built on could be annexed into the city. The point is that SF is boxed in on 3 sides by water and it is boxed in on the south by other cities. LA still has land (if it can be built on) in both the city limits and right next to it. LA doesn't need to grow up (height) in order to still grow, as much as SF does. Of course, I'm glad they are, but they just don't have to so much. SF, on the other hand, must grow upwards to keep growing, earthquakes be damned.

Makes sense. I think Tucson is boxed in itself. It's probably only a matter of (short) time before more 20+ floor buildings gets built downtown. I think there's a demand for new good quality temp housing in Tucson since Tucson is filled with crappy apts. I've read those new student housing at 22nd st/Park Ave. are fully leased already. The District at 4th ave. was fully leased way before it was even finished.

It would be neat add those solar roadway all over AZ especially in Tucson when it's always freak'in dark. Solar panels are getting cheaper too with more energy packed in. I've read Toyota adding a solar roof to power a car's A/C and even help recharged an electric vehicle...google 'toyota solar roof' .