Tucson Development Thread

[ProfessorMole]

Quick question for all of you out there in development land. Does anyone know what's happening with the lot just south of the carwash at Oracle and River. It used to be an old car dealer and had a sign out front for a while that said "Asian Buffet Coming Soon" and then that was tagged and destroyed. I commute the loop and have watched the asphalt torn up, fence taken down, and earth leveled over the past few weeks, but no sign or hint as to what's going in. Anyone have the scoop?

[Locofresh55]

Can't the city do an immanent domain seizure of the property do to it's disrepair and just tear it down?? I don't understand why the owner doesn't just tear down all that is on his land and try to sell it to a developer? It's prime location for a new hotel right off the freeway and near downtown. He'd probably make more than he paid for it. He sounds like a lazy slum lord. Although it would also be cool to see it restored and turned into a retro boutique hotel for hipsters.


The apartments aren't that much better either. And the two hotels on the corner of I-10 and 6th Avenue definitely need to go as well. South Tucson dropped the ball on this one and that area needs to be razed. It's funny how more people want the greyhound park to be removed, yet they leave this dilapidated structure sit in a prominent area for all to see. It has potential and realistically South Tucson deserves better. I like going to El Indio Restaurant and the Los Portales restaurant and I used to hit up the greyhound park as well.....that section of 4th avenue needs a nice welcoming set of structures before folks head up north to hit up the nice Mexican restaurants like Mi Nidito and Crossroads.


Damn Shame. So I ask the forumers, what ideas you have for that section of South Tucson?

[farmerk]

The apartments aren't that much better either. And the two hotels on the corner of I-10 and 6th Avenue definitely need to go as well. South Tucson dropped the ball on this one and that area needs to be razed. It's funny how more people want the greyhound park to be removed, yet they leave this dilapidated structure sit in a prominent area for all to see. It has potential and realistically South Tucson deserves better. I like going to El Indio Restaurant and the Los Portales restaurant and I used to hit up the greyhound park as well.....that section of 4th avenue needs a nice welcoming set of structures before folks head up north to hit up the nice Mexican restaurants like Mi Nidito and Crossroads.


Damn Shame. So I ask the forumers, what ideas you have for that section of South Tucson?

Build another 'HUB' and 'Level' type NON-student housing. I see a lot of students (?) biking from S. Tucson via 6th Ave.

[southtucsonboy77]

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/talks-continuing-on-el-rio-future-for-grand-canyon-university/article_f12c8d74-37db-54f4-aa48-d9508e0760c2.html

Son of a B#$%@!!! This neighborhood/coalition better not f@#$% this one up...seriously, a fine university...and they are complaining??? The golf course is destined to close...and the university will bring in jobs, opportunity, recognition, boost the economy...this is good for the city...for the REGION. The neighborhood should be thankful that the university and city are even considering locating a university near Barrio Sobaco (Armpit). I'm just blown away by their response...

[southtucsonboy77]

The apartments aren't that much better either. And the two hotels on the corner of I-10 and 6th Avenue definitely need to go as well. South Tucson dropped the ball on this one and that area needs to be razed. It's funny how more people want the greyhound park to be removed, yet they leave this dilapidated structure sit in a prominent area for all to see. It has potential and realistically South Tucson deserves better. I like going to El Indio Restaurant and the Los Portales restaurant and I used to hit up the greyhound park as well.....that section of 4th avenue needs a nice welcoming set of structures before folks head up north to hit up the nice Mexican restaurants like Mi Nidito and Crossroads.


Damn Shame. So I ask the forumers, what ideas you have for that section of South Tucson?

I've expressed this in a post a while back...1) the streetcar going down 6th Ave. to the Laos Center...6th Ave, in particular from 5 Points to South T, is ripe for TOD and reinvestment 2) it's dreaming big, but a MLS stadium with practice fields/facilities/private development extending from the Spanish Trail Development to 36th St. (Greyhound Park) and the section of motels along the frontage up to 6th Ave. 3) this is outside the box, but the nice outlet stores similiar to the new one out in Phx and the big one near Banning, CA.

I grew up on 36th and 3rd (therefore, the southtucsonboy name), across the street from the dog track and as a kid, my friends and I always wanted a public park. South Tucson does not have a park (Santa Rita doesn't count).

[farmerk]

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/talks-continuing-on-el-rio-future-for-grand-canyon-university/article_f12c8d74-37db-54f4-aa48-d9508e0760c2.html

Son of a B#$%@!!! This neighborhood/coalition better not f@#$% this one up...seriously, a fine university...and they are complaining??? The golf course is destined to close...and the university will bring in jobs, opportunity, recognition, boost the economy...this is good for the city...for the REGION. The neighborhood should be thankful that the university and city are even considering locating a university near Barrio Sobaco (Armpit). I'm just blown away by their response...

Not far from El Rio is PCC West, PCC at Stone Ave, School for the Deaf and Blind and UofA - Tucson's unofficial 'Higher Learning District'. Perfect spot for GCU , extending light rail to PCC West and building more 'HUB's along Speedway ... He He

[andrewsaturn]

This past week some investors who helped Downtown Portland become what it is now, visited Tucson to tour areas of possible development.

Here is a link to Tucson News Now to read and watch about it.

http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/22276505/investors-tour-downtown-tucson

In the story, it says that a supermarket chain will visit on June 7 for possible investment. The possibility of this chain committing to downtown is high in my opinion because of the fact that hundreds of students as well as surrounding residents live in walking distance. How could they pass that up? ;) Also, it doesn't say in this story but Tucson News Now did mention before that if these investors decided to commit to helping downtown, it would be worth an additional 2 billion dollars. My question is, what kinds of things are they looking to bring to the downtown area if there are projects already in place like housing, a supermarket, restaurants, the aviation extension? Maybe we'll see a possible investment in a MLS stadium in the future?...

[soleri]

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/neighborhoods/2013/05/americas-most-bikeable-neighborhoods/5587/

Tucson scores highest in a survey of America's most bikeable cities. This is good news in several ways. One, it suggests Tucson puts quality of life higher than simply moving cars faster and faster. Second, it means Tucson has a strong creative class who prefer amenities like bike lanes to more urban freeways.

[farmerk]

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/neighborhoods/2013/05/americas-most-bikeable-neighborhoods/5587/

Tucson scores highest in a survey of America's most bikeable cities. This is good news in several ways. One, it suggests Tucson puts quality of life higher than simply moving cars faster and faster. Second, it means Tucson has a strong creative class who prefer amenities like bike lanes to more urban freeways.

Personally, I'm willing to give up a crosstown freeway in Tucson in place of showering Tucson with light rail tracks and bike lanes. I'd even support a monorail over a crosstown freeway. I find no enjoyment driving a vehicle the same route to work or wherever...routine driving gets old and boring plus you run the risk of accidents from crazy Tucson drivers.

@andrewsaturn , a supermarket chain downtown?... that would be the busiest supermarket in Tucson.

[southtucsonboy77]

Personally, I'm willing to give up a crosstown freeway in Tucson in place of showering Tucson with light rail tracks and bike lanes. I'd even support a monorail over a crosstown freeway. I find no enjoyment driving a vehicle the same route to work or wherever...routine driving gets old and boring plus you run the risk of accidents from crazy Tucson drivers.

@andrewsaturn , a supermarket chain downtown?... that would be the busiest supermarket in Tucson.

I have to respectfully disagree and say that a crosstown freeway, just one for Tucson, is essential just on the premise of freight and goods movement alone. Having all bullets in the chamber...pedestrian, bike, recreational, bus, rail...and a decent freeway system...is the ultimate transportation infrastructure.

[farmerk]

I have to respectfully disagree and say that a crosstown freeway, just one for Tucson, is essential just on the premise of freight and goods movement alone. Having all bullets in the chamber...pedestrian, bike, recreational, bus, rail...and a decent freeway system...is the ultimate transportation infrastructure.

:wah: I was holding back... in denial and bought me to tears :wah: Thank you.

Always wanted to turn Grant Rd (1st choice) or even River Rd (2nd choice) into an east-west freeway.

[aznate27]

Personally, I'm willing to give up a crosstown freeway in Tucson in place of showering Tucson with light rail tracks and bike lanes. I'd even support a monorail over a crosstown freeway. I find no enjoyment driving a vehicle the same route to work or wherever...routine driving gets old and boring plus you run the risk of accidents from crazy Tucson drivers.

@andrewsaturn , a supermarket chain downtown?... that would be the busiest supermarket in Tucson.

I totally agree on the monorail idea. I don't think more freeways and cars would make quality of life better, just worse.

[aznate27]

I have to respectfully disagree and say that a crosstown freeway, just one for Tucson, is essential just on the premise of freight and goods movement alone. Having all bullets in the chamber...pedestrian, bike, recreational, bus, rail...and a decent freeway system...is the ultimate transportation infrastructure.

Grade seperated interesctions down Grant Road into Kolb is the best future this city has for a crosstown expressway. I'd give up on the idea of having a concrete slab running east-west. Plus I wouldn't want anything like that, it would divide the city in two and any neighborhood that bordered it would lose value. We need to start getting away from the idea that a freeway is the only answer to today's traffic problems. It's 2013 for petes sake!

[nickw252]

More freeways create more traffic. They destroy neighborhoods, create noise, create dead zones because no one wants to live by the freeway, and facilitate more suburban style developments (strip malls & big box stores). I have no idea why you supposed urbanists are clamoring for a cross-town freeway.

[farmerk]

I totally agree on the monorail idea. I don't think more freeways and cars would make quality of life better, just worse.

What about a parkway like Kino? At Grant-Kolb? I'd go for that.

[farmerk]

More freeways create more traffic. They destroy neighborhoods, create noise, create dead zones because no one wants to live by the freeway, and facilitate more suburban style developments (strip malls & big box stores). I have no idea why you supposed urbanists are clamoring for a cross-town freeway.

I live close to a freeway. It gets me to point A to point B quickly. I like living close to a freeway and a light/street car track...and a bus lane. I like urban living too. The less driving the better. Outside rush hour, I'd like to travel between west-east Tucson with fewer stops should I decide to drive a vehicle. I want more options traveling. I'm just the kind of guy who hates to stick with one mode of transportation. Bullet trains? I'd love it.

It's true freeways create more traffic especially rush hour but then you'd have much much more traffic without one.

However, I admit, a standard east-west crosstown freeway in Tucson is very very unlikely. I DON'T think an east-west crosstown fwy in Tucson will EVER be built. I think a Kino Pkwy at Grant-Kolb could be a possibility.

[Ritarancher]

I live close to a freeway. It gets me to point A to point B quickly. I like living close to a freeway and a light/street car track...and a bus lane. I like urban living too. The less driving the better. Outside rush hour, I'd like to travel between west-east Tucson with fewer stops should I decide to drive a vehicle. I want more options traveling. I'm just the kind of guy who hates to stick with one mode of transportation. Bullet trains? I'd love it.

It's true freeways create more traffic especially rush hour but then you'd have much much more traffic without one.

However, I admit, a standard east-west crosstown freeway in Tucson is very very unlikely. I DON'T think an east-west crosstown fwy in Tucson will EVER be built. I think a Kino Pkwy at Grant-Kolb could be a possibility.

It's never going to happen. The cost of the upgrades will be a lot more than it's worth! Besides Tucson still operates without a crosstown freeway. And what's so wrong about big box stores? The way I see it is that target and the home Depor are part of our nations culture, it's how we purchase our necessities. Not very many other counties builds shopping centers like we do. And the cookie cutter designs are also unique, to Tucson. Imagine a tourist coming to Tucson and they would immediently notice a similar style in our buildings. They'd probably be amazed at how we were able to get thousands of buildings to all be in one style!



On to the motel
The motel is a lost hope. I have ideas for the area. That particular stretch of the interstate dips below ground. What I think is that we should put a resturant over the freeway where it dips. It should have a glass wall facing eastward on the freeway. Besides, Mexican restrants are very good for matching south tucson's theme. I hope the resturant would be el guero canello, my personal favorite.


Edit: sorry for the typos, and lack of appstraphes, I'm on an iPhone and it's hard to see what I type and hard to press the right letters. Casino del sol golf course coming soon I will give you details web I get on a real compiter

[Patrick S]

More freeways create more traffic. They destroy neighborhoods, create noise, create dead zones because no one wants to live by the freeway, and facilitate more suburban style developments (strip malls & big box stores). I have no idea why you supposed urbanists are clamoring for a cross-town freeway.
Everything you said is true, yet they also have many advantages. I'll tell you why this "urbanist" is clamoring for a cross-town freeway. I'm sick of being stuck in traffic and taking 30 minutes to cross a city I could cross in 10-15 minutes on an expressway. My daughter goes to school on the northeast side of town, the farthest possible point from the interstates in Tucson (as I-10 heads west as it goes north to Phoenix and south as it heads east to New Mexico). We live on the southeast side of town (Camino Seco & Escalante) and my girlfriend works on the northwest side of town (Prince & I-10). She takes the interstate to work and often has to take surface streets back after work to pick up our daughter. Though she is driving a further distance (an extra 6 miles or so) to work on the interstate, it takes her easily 5 minutes or so less than it does to get across town on the surface streets after work to pick up our daughter. The reason for the distance in the morning is mainly because she has to take Irvington to Kolb to Valencia to I-10 and then I-10 loops around. Even with this extra distance, the interstate is still faster than driving a straight shot down Speedway to Camino Seco and up to Wrightstown Rd., which is, as I said, a shorter distance (by some 5 miles at least). Imagine a cross-town freeway cutting east to west across Tucson. Instead of a 35-45 minute drive she'd be driving for 10-15 minutes. These east-west roads are a pain in the butt to drive on. Broadway is a pain, especially where it goes to 2 lanes in each direction east of downtown to just west of Country Club, and near the Park Place Mall (tons of traffic and stop-lights), and this is with full-time dedicated bus-lanes/turn-lanes east of Alvernon (including by the Park Place Mall). Speedway is even worse. No dedicated bus-lanes/turn-lanes. Luckily they have put in many bus pull-outs for the bus stops, but even many of the major intersections don't have right-hand turn lanes. I used to live at Speedway and Alvernon (luckily there was a right-hand turn lane at Alvernon) and drove Speedway a lot. Swan and Speedway was a headache, especially if you were in the right-hand lane. In fact, between Alvernon and Wilmot (east of Wilmot, Speedway doesn't get so cramped) there is no right-hand turn lanes at any intersections, including another major intersection at Craycroft. That whole stretch of Speedway (Alvernon to Wilmot) is a nightmare. I often would take 5th/6th St. (even though it's 2 lanes each way with no median) instead of Speedway, but this often backs up around Alvernon (again, no right-hand turn lane at 5th & Alvernon). The fact is, and the point I'm trying to make, is that driving on the east-west roads thru Tucson is a pain in the butt. It is slow and tedious. Luckily living where I do now I can take Golf Links to Aviation Hwy., and can, at times, get to the U of A from my house in approximately 20 minutes.

I know that expressways/freeways are not the end-all-be-all of transportation planning. I would prefer a comprehensive approach to transportation planning in this city, as I would in any city. Phoenix is taking the right approach - new light rail on top of their existing freeway system. Chicago, where I've spent a lot of time, though it has bad traffic, has a pretty good approach. They've got the 'L' (elevated train), metro-rail, interstates, busses - all the major players in modern metropolitan transportation. I don't want Tucson to just have a cross-town freeway, I want light-rail, bike lanes and paths, bus rapid-transit, etc.... In the Tucson Improvement & Beautification Organization (TIBO) poll I voted for the beginnings of a light rail, new freeway, and widening I-10 east of Kino Pkwy. - We truly need a comprehensive approach in this city, and that includes a freeway. Unfortunately, the NIMBYs and other groups have long since passed the chance to have this happen. Central Tucson is too built up and it would be too burdensome and expensive to build a cross-town freeway now.

Finally, I'm not sure what you mean, exactly, by an urbanist. I'm pro-growth. Though I prefer smart growth (vertical rather than horizontal, energy efficient, etc...) that creates walkable, urban environments, this is not practical, likely, needed, or wanted, for all parts of the city, let alone the entire metropolitan area. I don't expect 20+ story buildings being built in Vail, but would love them built in downtown and around the U of A. Not even Chicago has big buildings in every square inch of the city, let alone the entire metro area. Sure, there are parts of the suburbs that have tall buildings (interestingly enough, these are mainly around the interstates, such as I-90 in the western suburbs, near O'Hare Airport). I will usually support any kind of growth that brings jobs and minimizes the impact on the environment as much as possible.

[Ritarancher]

Everything you said is true, yet they also have many advantages. I'll tell you why this "urbanist" is clamoring for a cross-town freeway. I'm sick of being stuck in traffic and taking 30 minutes to cross a city I could cross in 10-15 minutes on an expressway. My daughter goes to school on the northeast side of town, the farthest possible point from the interstates in Tucson (as I-10 heads west as it goes north to Phoenix and south as it heads east to New Mexico). We live on the southeast side of town (Camino Seco & Escalante) and my girlfriend works on the northwest side of town (Prince & I-10). She takes the interstate to work and often has to take surface streets back after work to pick up our daughter. Though she is driving a further distance (an extra 6 miles or so) to work on the interstate, it takes her easily 5 minutes or so less than it does to get across town on the surface streets after work to pick up our daughter. The reason for the distance in the morning is mainly because she has to take Irvington to Kolb to Valencia to I-10 and then I-10 loops around. Even with this extra distance, the interstate is still faster than driving a straight shot down Speedway to Camino Seco and up to Wrightstown Rd., which is, as I said, a shorter distance (by some 5 miles at least). Imagine a cross-town freeway cutting east to west across Tucson. Instead of a 35-45 minute drive she'd be driving for 10-15 minutes. These east-west roads are a pain in the butt to drive on. Broadway is a pain, especially where it goes to 2 lanes in each direction east of downtown to just west of Country Club, and near the Park Place Mall (tons of traffic and stop-lights), and this is with full-time dedicated bus-lanes/turn-lanes east of Alvernon (including by the Park Place Mall). Speedway is even worse. No dedicated bus-lanes/turn-lanes. Luckily they have put in many bus pull-outs for the bus stops, but even many of the major intersections don't have right-hand turn lanes. I used to live at Speedway and Alvernon (luckily there was a right-hand turn lane at Alvernon) and drove Speedway a lot. Swan and Speedway was a headache, especially if you were in the right-hand lane. In fact, between Alvernon and Wilmot (east of Wilmot, Speedway doesn't get so cramped) there is no right-hand turn lanes at any intersections, including another major intersection at Craycroft. That whole stretch of Speedway (Alvernon to Wilmot) is a nightmare. I often would take 5th/6th St. (even though it's 2 lanes each way with no median) instead of Speedway, but this often backs up around Alvernon (again, no right-hand turn lane at 5th & Alvernon). The fact is, and the point I'm trying to make, is that driving on the east-west roads thru Tucson is a pain in the butt. It is slow and tedious. Luckily living where I do now I can take Golf Links to Aviation Hwy., and can, at times, get to the U of A from my house in approximately 20 minutes.

I know that expressways/freeways are not the end-all-be-all of transportation planning. I would prefer a comprehensive approach to transportation planning in this city, as I would in any city. Phoenix is taking the right approach - new light rail on top of their existing freeway system. Chicago, where I've spent a lot of time, though it has bad traffic, has a pretty good approach. They've got the 'L' (elevated train), metro-rail, interstates, busses - all the major players in modern metropolitan transportation. I don't want Tucson to just have a cross-town freeway, I want light-rail, bike lanes and paths, bus rapid-transit, etc.... In the Tucson Improvement & Beautification Organization (TIBO) poll I voted for the beginnings of a light rail, new freeway, and widening I-10 east of Kino Pkwy. - We truly need a comprehensive approach in this city, and that includes a freeway. Unfortunately, the NIMBYs and other groups have long since passed the chance to have this happen. Central Tucson is too built up and it would be too burdensome and expensive to build a cross-town freeway now.

Finally, I'm not sure what you mean, exactly, by an urbanist. I'm pro-growth. Though I prefer smart growth (vertical rather than horizontal, energy efficient, etc...) that creates walkable, urban environments, this is not practical, likely, needed, or wanted, for all parts of the city, let alone the entire metropolitan area. I don't expect 20+ story buildings being built in Vail, but would love them built in downtown and around the U of A. Not even Chicago has big buildings in every square inch of the city, let alone the entire metro area. Sure, there are parts of the suburbs that have tall buildings (interestingly enough, these are mainly around the interstates, such as I-90 in the western suburbs, near O'Hare Airport). I will usually support any kind of growth that brings jobs and minimizes the impact on the environment as much as possible.

Amen to that!!! Tucson is never going to be a true skyscraper city. It's who we are. If you're from Tucson, or anywhere from the west for that matter, you'd understand. Over the past century developers have taken advantage of the seeming endless amounts of land we have and how easy it is to build on it. Tucson can still have a vibrant downtown and have suburbs, which is the best thing that anybody can ask for! Our metro already takes about 200 square miles of land. The one square mile of downtown is going to be the best that we can make it.

[Ritarancher]

http://www.casinodelsol.com/sewailo-golf-course/tucson-golf-course

The area's newest golf course is opening. Or is it?? I don't know but here was a link from last year but looking at google maps the course is under construction.
It also seems as though the Westin La Paloma is opening a course as well. No link for that though :/

[farmerk]

Amen to that!!! Tucson is never going to be a true skyscraper city.

RRancher, you are truly careful with your words in this forum. Thanks for expressing it diplomatically. Let's make it 3 sq miles of 'tall' buildings. ;)

As for Tucson extending beyond 200 sq miles, I think it will be more difficult these days. It will be as difficult as building a crosstown freeway (east-west) in Tucson. Urbanism is pretty much the trend these days all over the planet. Looks like cities are in the downtown revitalization craze. Suburbs will still be around but not that significant.

Got excited about the possibility of a chain grocery store downtown. Used to live right besides a grocery store in the same block (of all places, Phoenix)... that was a delicious time.

@andrewsaturn "... Also, it doesn't say in this story but Tucson News Now did mention before that if these investors decided to commit to helping downtown, it would be worth an additional 2 billion dollars. ..." . Maybe, more high rises? :whistle:

[Ted Lyons]

My daughter goes to school on the northeast side of town, the farthest possible point from the interstates in Tucson (as I-10 heads west as it goes north to Phoenix and south as it heads east to New Mexico). We live on the southeast side of town (Camino Seco & Escalante) and my girlfriend works on the northwest side of town (Prince & I-10).

Not to criticize, but the tenets of most schools of urbanism, especially new urbanism, would dictate against this much travel altogether. From my perspective, Tucson needs to move away from the model of emphasizing and accommodating crosstown travel on a daily basis. Ideally, you'd be able to do all you do every day without leaving a relatively confined area. Building a freeway through the center of the city (and bulldozing countless neighborhoods) encourages a future where that's not more likely than it is today.

[Ritarancher]

RRancher, you are truly careful with your words in this forum. Thanks for expressing it diplomatically. Let's make it 3 sq miles of 'tall' buildings. ;)

As for Tucson extending beyond 200 sq miles, I think it will be more difficult these days. It will be as difficult as building a crosstown freeway (east-west) in Tucson. Urbanism is pretty much the trend these days all over the planet. Looks like cities are in the downtown revitalization craze. Suburbs will still be around but not that significant.

Got excited about the possibility of a chain grocery store downtown. Used to live right besides a grocery store in the same block (of all places, Phoenix)... that was a delicious time.

@andrewsaturn "... Also, it doesn't say in this story but Tucson News Now did mention before that if these investors decided to commit to helping downtown, it would be worth an additional 2 billion dollars. ..." . Maybe, more high rises? :whistle:

Two Billion, that's about the cost of the new world trade center. To me that seems like a lot for a tower, even of that size.

[Patrick S]

Not to criticize, but the tenets of most schools of urbanism, especially new urbanism, would dictate against this much travel altogether. From my perspective, Tucson needs to move away from the model of emphasizing and accommodating crosstown travel on a daily basis. Ideally, you'd be able to do all you do every day without leaving a relatively confined area. Building a freeway through the center of the city (and bulldozing countless neighborhoods) encourages a future where that's not more likely than it is today.
I don't take it as a criticism. This is a forum to discuss and debate, and it doesn't bother me if you disagree with me or not. That said, I could care less what new urbanism thinks or says. I don't subscribe to ideologies about this or that. If something works then I'm all for it. I think we need a cross-town freeway, but as I said in my response, that time has since passed thanks to the poor planning of the city and those that thought if they didn't built it they (and we) wouldn't come. Well, they (and we) did come and now this town is a nightmare driving from east to west (or vice-a-versa) on the surface streets. I don't think they should bulldoze neighborhoods, and anyway, even if they did, it would be way too expensive, just to build a freeway. If it could be incorporated into the existing city without too much change than I'm all for it, but I don't see that as a realistic possibility, so we'll have to deal with it as it is.

[Ted Lyons]

I don't take it as a criticism. This is a forum to discuss and debate, and it doesn't bother me if you disagree with me or not. That said, I could care less what new urbanism thinks or says. I don't subscribe to ideologies about this or that. If something works then I'm all for it. I think we need a cross-town freeway, but as I said in my response, that time has since passed thanks to the poor planning of the city and those that thought if they didn't built it they (and we) wouldn't come. Well, they (and we) did come and now this town is a nightmare driving from east to west (or vice-a-versa) on the surface streets. I don't think they should bulldoze neighborhoods, and anyway, even if they did, it would be way too expensive, just to build a freeway. If it could be incorporated into the existing city without too much change than I'm all for it, but I don't see that as a realistic possibility, so we'll have to deal with it as it is.

Fair enough. I actually think our traffic issues are a bit overblown. As much as I hate getting stuck at a light for several rotations, it's better than sitting at a standstill on a highway for an hour, which is common in many cities with more advanced freeway infrastructures than we have. Our continuing issue, which also impacts travel times, is the condition of our streets and it will take much more than the money committed from the last election to solve that problem.

[farmerk]

Two Billion, that's about the cost of the new world trade center. To me that seems like a lot for a tower, even of that size.

Tucson will have it's own WTC, like it or NOT, damn it!! ... just kidding. It's more than likely $2 billion spread out over several projects. And my guess here, they'll be spent on mid, high rise buildings .... probably condos, apts, retail etc. As much as I like stadiums, rainbow bridge, freestanding tower, arenas (big ticket items) etc.. , I think that's (tall buildings) where the $2 billion will be spent.

If you remember, Tucson started concentrating on big ticket items for downtown and $200+ million later there's nothing positive to show. And considering the great demand at the current student housing projects, I'll bet there's going to be several tall buildings in the horizon.

[Patrick S]

Fair enough. I actually think our traffic issues are a bit overblown. As much as I hate getting stuck at a light for several rotations, it's better than sitting at a standstill on a highway for an hour, which is common in many cities with more advanced freeway infrastructures than we have. Our continuing issue, which also impacts travel times, is the condition of our streets and it will take much more than the money committed from the last election to solve that problem.
Totally agree about the condition of roads. 22nd St. is horrible and 5th St. is just as bad. Also agree that it will take more than the last election (the $100 million bond to fix city streets) to fix the problem, but it was a good start. I voted for it and am glad it passed. There's already been major progress on the east side of town (though I don't know if this was already planned work or due to the bond vote). They've repaved Golf Links from Kolb to Craycroft, and a little bit of Craycroft north of Golf Links. They're also currently working on Broadway in the Pantano area. Agree this could help speed up traffic, but still would love a cross-town freeway in Tucson, as part of a comprehensive transportation plan.

[aznate27]

Fair enough. I actually think our traffic issues are a bit overblown. As much as I hate getting stuck at a light for several rotations, it's better than sitting at a standstill on a highway for an hour, which is common in many cities with more advanced freeway infrastructures than we have. Our continuing issue, which also impacts travel times, is the condition of our streets and it will take much more than the money committed from the last election to solve that problem.

I used to live in Los Angeles and lived 25 miles from work, all freeway...it took 2 hours both ways! By contrast, I live 33 miles from work now and it takes me about 50 minutes to an hour.

[AustinBear]

Anyone who really wants to whine and complain about traffic in Tucson....well...I remember going through Tucson on I-10 around 4:30, close to 5:00 PM I think. It was when the 10 was about 3 lanes wide, each side, and though it was a little slow and go, it still moved. I've driven on the surface streets before, and I'm still not one to complain. Come to Austin, and deal with our rush hour on any of our freeways or surface streets. It's brutal. I"ll take Phoenix or Tucson traffic any day of the week. We'll even get rush hour traffic during the noon hour. :P

[soleri]

Putting aside hobbyhorses and ideologies, the real question about urban freeways is what they do for and against the city itself. If you look at vintage pictures of virtually any American city from, say, 1950, you see tight urban development where residential and commercial blended much better than they do today. People didn't need to drive as much or go as far. The cities were coherent, and as such, extraordinarily vibrant places. After the great urban freeway debacles of the past 50-some years, we look at band-aid approaches to healing destabilized and low-energy downtowns, such as convention and performing arts centers. But these ventures often end up creating even more dead zones. Case in point: downtown Phoenix.

I lived in Tucson in the early 1970s when downtown was busy and lively. But they had already torn down the ramshackle barrio for the Tucson convention center. If that barrio existed today, Tucson would rival places like Santa Fe and San Luis Obispo for charm and urban cool. The things we do to cities in the name of personal convenience is shameless and tragic. You want Tucson to be in the same league as places like Santa Fe, Salt Lake City, Boise, and
Fort Collins where quality of life takes precedence over autocentric sprawl. One Phoenix is too many. Tucson deserves its own destiny.

[southtucsonboy77]

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/tim-steller-grand-canyon-university-tucson-campus-a-great-idea/article_5370f56d-adf1-5669-a397-f8e8e720b1df.html

"...Grand Canyon officials did not return my call seeking comment, but I believe Mueller is referring to Tucson's El Rio site and to another site owned by the town of Oro Valley, which is competing to become the home of the new campus."

"...The Oro Valley site remains obscure. Town officials sent me this statement indirectly tweaking Tucson: "The Town of Oro Valley does have a proposal under consideration by Grand Canyon University; however out of respect for the client, the Town is declining further comment while the project is still in negotiations."

Whoever gets the campus will receive a big economic boost: a nine-figure construction project, plus a workforce projected to reach 1,000 employees, with a payroll of $60 million, by 2020. Grand Canyon estimates eventual enrollment at the campus around 6,000 students.

I would still like to see this built in Tucson to help the region's core and primary city boost its dragging economy and wages...but if the majority of the City Council and the neighborhood don't want it...then I'll be happy with Oro Valley. At least its still in the region.

The whole narrative about the cultural significance of the golf course, the way things "were" in the past...I think that's pulling the race card. It's a travesty to the economics of Tucson...the entire city...not just the neighborhood if the university does not get built. Thank goodness there are alternative sites, most likely Oro Valley (it seems). Can you imagine if our city leaders worked with Motorola when they wanted to locate here?

I've read articles on how the city leaders are idiots and dummies because they can't manage the budget, they are losing money on the golf courses, etc etc...yet, now they have an opportunity to sell a golf course property that is losing money and now they are being inconsiderate. I don't get it!!! Yes, making the site into a park...the idea alone is a good idea although the city still would have to spend and maintain it. A university with a potentially beautiful campus integrating what's already there and boosting our dragging economy, even a better idea in my opinion.

[southtucsonboy77]

Here are a few docs that I participated in. I was part of the Loop Study TAC...the initial intent was good, but it became an anything-is-possible document.

Alot of the comments written in this Forum are correct, Tucson has passed its time of a true crosstown freeway. The only "crosstown" freeway that is still a possibility (and its in Huckelberry's proposed Bond Package) is the I-19 to east I-10 by SR 83 for Port of Tucson, UA Tech Park, and goods movement.


PAG Loop Study (2004-2006)

http://www.pagnet.org/documents/Transportation/TranspoPlanning/Working_Paper_3.pdf

Southeast Arterial Study (2006)

http://www.pagnet.org/Portals/0/Documents/Transportation/SEAAS_Final_Map.pdf

[farmerk]

IMHO, GCU should build their school at El Rio. If they get to locate at Oro Valley, this would send another confusing message to investors who want to invest in Tucson.

Just how perfect do you need to be to invest in Tucson? Why can't Tucsonans allow GCU to build a campus in Tucson when University of Phoenix , among other for-profit schools in Tucson, has a branch here? Are Tucsonans prejudiced against christians? Would Tucsonans feel the same way if Microsoft or Apple ( both constantly in court for whatever reason ) open a campus at El Rio? There's the School for the Deaf and Blind besides it and PCC West/Stone Ave ... then why exclude GCU. Big blow for Tucson if this project gets turned down (forced by a few whinny neighbors).

[ComplotDesigner]

Hey guys, here is a picture I took yesterday from El Charro downtown. You can notice the Joint Court Complex.

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/3008/tucsonpanorama0011024px.jpg

[southtucsonboy77]

Hey guys, here is a picture I took yesterday from El Charro downtown. You can notice the Joint Court Complex.

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/3008/tucsonpanorama0011024px.jpg

That parking lot is perfect for development...

[Phxguy]

Dropped into Tucson today for some business with my mother and took her to Diablo Burger afterwards. Both our first time walking downtown, I must say I'm very impressed. Not only were the burgers delicous and business very friendly, the block was humming with people. Sure it was a Monday, but there were countless people walking dogs, riding bikes, and the atmosphere felt more lively. Gorgeous building Hotel Congress is as well as the Rialto block.
We strolled down to Church St. and then made our way back up one block over from the Pima Courthouse. We popped in a few shops along the way. I really enjoyed it. Although I will mention there feels to be a dead-space between the Chase building and about the Chicago Music Store. Not sure if a ton of construction or what but just more empty store fronts than what I saw further up. Anyways, keep it rad Tucson!

[ppdd]

That parking lot is perfect for development...

That lot has been on various development plans over the years. Someday it will be something....

[Ted Lyons]

Dropped into Tucson today for some business with my mother and took her to Diablo Burger afterwards. Both our first time walking downtown, I must say I'm very impressed. Not only were the burgers delicous and business very friendly, the block was humming with people. Sure it was a Monday, but there were countless people walking dogs, riding bikes, and the atmosphere felt more lively. Gorgeous building Hotel Congress is as well as the Rialto block.
We strolled down to Church St. and then made our way back up one block over from the Pima Courthouse. We popped in a few shops along the way. I really enjoyed it. Although I will mention there feels to be a dead-space between the Chase building and about the Chicago Music Store. Not sure if a ton of construction or what but just more empty store fronts than what I saw further up. Anyways, keep it rad Tucson!

Those blocks - between 6th and Stone - are definitely quieter. Part of the problem is that a fire took out most of the building on the southwest corner of Scott and Congress this past winter, which has created a (hopefully temporary) dead space. Another part of the problem is that one of the bigger property holders in that block doesn't have the vision of the people who have developed the blocks east of that point and seems content focusing on mediocre nightclubs.

[cdsuofa]

Grade seperated interesctions down Grant Road into Kolb is the best future this city has for a crosstown expressway. I'd give up on the idea of having a concrete slab running east-west. Plus I wouldn't want anything like that, it would divide the city in two and any neighborhood that bordered it would lose value. We need to start getting away from the idea that a freeway is the only answer to today's traffic problems. It's 2013 for petes sake!
I agree with you that grade separated intersections and just overall smarter design of our arterial roads would be effective enough. The only plausible place to put a freeway would be down the Rillito wash bed and then up Kolb but that has been explored and public support for that is low. Forget the demolition of buildings across town it wont happen, way too expensive and for the reasons mentioned by aznate. Putting that money towards major intersections and making them like Kino/22nd, Tanque verde/Pantano, Mission/22nd etc. is our best bet IMO. Even picking a couple roads for example Oracle making most of their intersections overpass/underpass would be great for getting across town.

[aznate27]

I agree with you that grade separated intersections and just overall smarter design of our arterial roads would be effective enough. The only plausible place to put a freeway would be down the Rillito wash bed and then up Kolb but that has been explored and public support for that is low. Forget the demolition of buildings across town it wont happen, way too expensive and for the reasons mentioned by aznate. Putting that money towards major intersections and making them like Kino/22nd, Tanque verde/Pantano, Mission/22nd etc. is our best bet IMO. Even picking a couple roads for example Oracle making most of their intersections overpass/underpass would be great for getting across town.

I drive down Oracle Road every week on my way to work in Catalina and grade separated intersections at River, Ina, Magee, and Tangerine Road would move traffic (which is always heavy) along much more efficiently. I also think the same would work at Kolb/Irvington, Kolb/Golflinks, 22nd/Kolb, Speedway/Kolb, and Tanque Verde/Kolb giving the eastside a parkway that runs north/south.

[Ted Lyons]

Speaking of the quiet area on Congress between 6th and Stone, Pima County is selling the building at 97 E. Congress. If the right developer buys that, it could be a big improvement to the Congress-Scott intersection.

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/county-to-sell-downtown-property/article_6b81a3c1-7278-5f95-ab33-9141deffa106.html

[cdsuofa]

I drive down Oracle Road every week on my way to work in Catalina and grade separated intersections at River, Ina, Magee, and Tangerine Road would move traffic (which is always heavy) along much more efficiently. I also think the same would work at Kolb/Irvington, Kolb/Golflinks, 22nd/Kolb, Speedway/Kolb, and Tanque Verde/Kolb giving the eastside a parkway that runs north/south.
I agree i think people need to give up on the idea of a typical freeway being built in the already developed part of Tucson and move more in this direction. Freeways to the south, west and far northwest could still be a possibility but its not going to happen in the Tucson area east of I-10.

[ProfessorMole]

Quick question for all of you out there in development land. Does anyone know what's happening with the lot just south of the carwash at Oracle and River. It used to be an old car dealer and had a sign out front for a while that said "Asian Buffet Coming Soon" and then that was tagged and destroyed. I commute the loop and have watched the asphalt torn up, fence taken down, and earth leveled over the past few weeks, but no sign or hint as to what's going in. Anyone have the scoop?

I've come across an answer to my own post from a little while back. Per the building permit search through City Of Tucson, a new Subaru Dealership will be going up.

[Ted Lyons]

More news regarding Congress between 6th and Scott: I haven't seen the liquor license application but word is that a wine bar owned by the people who own Wine Depot on Grant and Alvernon is opening a few doors down from the Chicago Store.

If you don't know, Wine Depot imports and sells wines from relatively small German producers. All of the stuff they import is only available through their store. I don't know if that model will continue at the new bar downtown but it's a really unique concept that I hope continues.

[Ritarancher]

I've come across an answer to my own post from a little while back. Per the building permit search through City Of Tucson, a new Subaru Dealership will be going up.

That's too bad. I would much rather have a Ford, Chevy or another Detroit company move in rather than a foreign one.

[aznate27]

That's too bad. I would much rather have a Ford, Chevy or another Detroit company move in rather than a foreign one.

What is this 1983??? . Without foreign automakers TENS OF THOUSANDS of Americans wouldn't have the jobs they have now in the industry. In 2012 the three big Japanese automakers employed 67,000 Americans alone. A Toyota is almost as likely to have the same percentage of American made parts as a Ford. Subaru will be employing Americans with the new dealership, they are now with construction jobs to build it. The term "made in America" can apply to a Toyota today just as it can to a Ford. To say your statement sounds several decades behind the times is putting it mildly.

[farmerk]

Since we're in the auto dealership conversation mode, I wouldn't mind Tesla Motors (http://www.teslamotors.com/) setting up an auto dealership in the Old Pueblo. Maybe, turn Tucson into a hotbed for electric vehicles with more charging stations than any city in the world. It would even be nice if Tesla would open a manufacturing plant here.

[cdsuofa]

Since we're in the auto dealership conversation mode, I wouldn't mind Tesla Motors (http://www.teslamotors.com/) setting up an auto dealership in the Old Pueblo. Maybe, turn Tucson into a hotbed for electric vehicles with more charging stations than any city in the world. It would even be nice if Tesla would open a manufacturing plant here.
Wouldnt that be a dream come true. Tucson should be a hotbed for solar panel use, production and testing but sadly it isn't.

[aznate27]

Since we're in the auto dealership conversation mode, I wouldn't mind Tesla Motors (http://www.teslamotors.com/) setting up an auto dealership in the Old Pueblo. Maybe, turn Tucson into a hotbed for electric vehicles with more charging stations than any city in the world. It would even be nice if Tesla would open a manufacturing plant here.

I want a Tesla SO bad!! You know they nearly got a perfect score from Consumer Reports?? They said the only flaw they could find was that it had to be plugged in and it was THE best car they have ever tested!

[Ritarancher]

I want a Tesla SO bad!! You know they nearly got a perfect score from Consumer Reports?? They said the only flaw they could find was that it had to be plugged in and it was THE best car they have ever tested!

Tesla for Tucson!! We should help work with tesla. It would be a big help for the city. Those cars are expensive but hell you wouldn't need a new car in 30 years! Tesla has a new way of selling cars, directly to the consumer with no middle man. Kind of like apple and apple stores. But some people don't like change... I think it was either Virginia or north Carolina who denied the right to sell the cars without a dealer. IMO that is illegal , I'm pretty sure your supposed to be able to sell things however you want. Anyway we're VERY off topic hahaha. Downtown and the UofA are looking great.

And aznate those jobs would still be here if the sales for American cars were larger,they would just be working at a Detroit factory. My problem is where the profit goes. I want the profit to go to Detroit not New Dehli or Tokyo

[farmerk]

Thanks for all that info about Tesla. The Dream is turning to reality.

Just remember while you're enjoying your ribs and beer over this long Memorial Day weekend ... It's not too late for Tucson to look something like this...

http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium/cafe-near-eiffel-tower-carl-purcell.jpg http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6188/6115471412_77c5abddf2_z.jpg

[aznate27]

All I know is...I WANT ANOTHER DAMN SKYSCRAPER TO BE BUILT DOWNTOWN, UGH!... Hate waiting :yuck:

[Ritarancher]

http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/photos/best-and-worst-cities-for-small-businesses-1338371711-slideshow/oklahoma-city-was-rated-the-friendliest-city-for-small-businesses-in-the-u-s-business-owners-photo-1337353607.html

Tucson made the worst list for small businesses, right up with LA and San Diego. But honestly, who's surprised. We have a city council that always talks about helping local companies but never do anything about it and we have snowbirds from Edmonton who think that they can run the place because they live here for 3 months a year.

EDIT: The article also says that labor is cheap here. That's not right. We as Tucsonans deserve the same pay as anybody else.

[farmerk]

Recent video from AZ Illustrated about downtown redevelopment (https://media.azpm.org/master/video/2013/5/24/qrhd/aipo0116hb.m4v) . Lots of good info old and new!

[aznate27]

Recent video from AZ Illustrated about downtown redevelopment (https://media.azpm.org/master/video/2013/5/24/qrhd/aipo0116hb.m4v) . Lots of good info old and new!

Thanks for posting, really great info! Pretty excited to hear that possibly three new hotels could start constuction this year. That would be major for downtown and Tucson in general. The Gem Show organizers said one of their major complaints were not enough hotel rooms downtown, if three were built by end of 2014 that would help calm down the frustrations of people who come to the gem show every year.

As far as a new arena, if Tucsonans are serious about having one built they are going to have to approve a bond measure to have it done. I really don't see another option. Tucson almost literally needs to tear down the current one and just rebuild it. The benifit to the city would be enormous IMO.

[farmerk]

Thanks for posting, really great info! Pretty excited to hear that possibly three new hotels could start constuction this year. That would be major for downtown and Tucson in general. The Gem Show organizers said one of their major complaints were not enough hotel rooms downtown, if three were built by end of 2014 that would help calm down the frustrations of people who come to the gem show every year.

As far as a new arena, if Tucsonans are serious about having one built they are going to have to approve a bond measure to have it done. I really don't see another option. Tucson almost literally needs to tear down the current one and just rebuild it. The benifit to the city would be enormous IMO.

Yep, I'm glad the mayor and Fletcher recognized that TCC is 'not aesthetically pleasing' . Fletcher even mentioned about building a plaza, more restaurants, retail, cafes etc.. around a plaza and even scraping the museum district at west side downtown into building more mixed used development. I like what I hear except for that dude at Hotel Congress who wants to move the transit center away from downtown . Tucson really needs a transportation hub. Good thing the mayor and Fletcher want to keep the transit center downtown....helps to bring people in downtown (work or play).

EDIT: And if Tucson decides not to rebuild the TCC (from bond measure), I'd just tear it down and build more private developments.

[Ritarancher]

Yep, I'm glad the mayor and Fletcher recognized that TCC is 'not aesthetically pleasing' . Fletcher even mentioned about building a plaza, more restaurants, retail, cafes etc.. around a plaza and even scraping the museum district at west side downtown into building more mixed used development. I like what I hear except for that dude at Hotel Congress who wants to move the transit center away from downtown . Tucson really needs a transportation hub. Good thing the mayor and Fletcher want to keep the transit center downtown....helps to bring people in downtown (work or play).

A plaza would be nice, with stores that you would see in malls, and some local stores would be very fun to go to. A fountain, some King Palms and high tech times square advertising signs above. man I'm daydreaming a lot. IMO west end is a bad area for a plaza. I'd prefer one closer to the core of downtown

[farmerk]

A plaza would be nice, with stores that you would see in malls, and some local stores would be very fun to go to. A fountain, some King Palms and high tech times square advertising signs above. man I'm daydreaming a lot. IMO west end is a bad area for a plaza. I'd prefer one closer to the core of downtown

I think the plaza is planned around TCC...probably the always empty parking lot. I'm as excited as you. There's always areas around Tucson to build museums at a later time. I just want to see tall buildings with restaurants, retail etc... in a densely packed area in central Tucson.

[Ritarancher]

I'll be gone from this page for the next two weeks. I wont see or post a thrown on this thread. The last time that I did that Tucson got park avenue, an airport parking lot with solar panels and the hub. Hopefully this time we'll get some tall highrises. Keepin my fingers crossed :fingerscrossed:

[farmerk]

I'll be gone from this page for the next two weeks. I won't see or even post in this thread. The last time I did that Tucson got Park Avenue, an airport parking lot with solar panels and The Hub. Hopefully this time we'll get some tall high rises. Keepin' my fingers crossed :fingerscrossed:

Have a safe trip. I'll be off, too. Probably much longer. Yes, let's keep our fingers crossed that not one but more than one tall building gets built in the Old Pueblo within 2 years.

Anyway, out of curiosity , I did a Google map of Tucson and came to the conclusion that Tucson might just be 40 square miles in size instead of the official 200 sq miles. Speedway Blvd is about 20 miles long. And most of the north-south roads are about 15-20 miles long. So , the Old Pueblo , is actually about 40 sq miles of habitable areas much like Paris, France (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris). I personally prefer Paris, France as a template for Tucson instead of Portland or Austin.

Wished list while away : I hope the city would really focused on aesthetics when they approved construction on any building in Tucson. Tucson is small in size and the Old Pueblo can't afford more 'Cadence' or 'One East Broadway' :yuck: Tucson might end up being on top of the list of ugly cities in the world. Stay classy Tucson!

Au revoir! (no, I'm not going to France :( )

Damn, I need to get away! Anyway, last note, here's a thought for a convention center for Tucson ... a convention center designed by Frank Gehry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Frank_Gehry_buildings) ... since the Old Pueblo is looking into spending $200+ million might as well hire a world class architect.

[southtucsonboy77]

It sounds like El Rio is off the table for GCU...

http://azstarnet.com/news/opinion/guest-column-plan-to-put-university-on-el-rio-golf/article_49927ae8-e10a-567a-a96e-e48b611e9fe2.html

...and I just got back from Flagstaff this weekend and ate at Diablo Burger at Heritage Square; that was a nice little plaza for their downtown.

[Patrick S]

Have a safe trip. I'll be off, too. Probably much longer. Yes, let's keep our fingers crossed that not one but more than one tall building gets built in the Old Pueblo within 2 years.

Anyway, out of curiosity , I did a Google map of Tucson and came to the conclusion that Tucson might just be 40 square miles in size instead of the official 200 sq miles. Speedway Blvd is about 20 miles long. And most of the north-south roads are about 15-20 miles long. So , the Old Pueblo , is actually about 40 sq miles of habitable areas much like Paris, France (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris). I personally prefer Paris, France as a template for Tucson instead of Portland or Austin.

Wished list while away : I hope the city would really focused on aesthetics when they approved construction on any building in Tucson. Tucson is small in size and the Old Pueblo can't afford more 'Cadence' or 'One East Broadway' :yuck: Tucson might end up being on top of the list of ugly cities in the world. Stay classy Tucson!

Au revoir! (no, I'm not going to France :( )

Damn, I need to get away! Anyway, last note, here's a thought for a convention center for Tucson ... a convention center designed by Frank Gehry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Frank_Gehry_buildings) ... since the Old Pueblo is looking into spending $200+ million might as well hire a world class architect.
You've got to remember, there is a vast part of Tucson, south of I-10 out by Kolb and Houghton that is officially part of the city but isn't built on but for very sparse houses and the prisons.

[Ted Lyons]

It sounds like El Rio is off the table for GCU...

http://azstarnet.com/news/opinion/guest-column-plan-to-put-university-on-el-rio-golf/article_49927ae8-e10a-567a-a96e-e48b611e9fe2.html

...and I just got back from Flagstaff this weekend and ate at Diablo Burger at Heritage Square; that was a nice little plaza for their downtown.

For better or worse, Romero's support isn't the only factor at play even if that's how she frames things here. Knowing the opinions of some of her most vocal constituents, which she channels very precisely in this piece, I don't know how she ever thought she could support anything other than a park at El Rio, so I was a little surprised she ever expressed open-mindedness.

EDIT - It does seem that, without Romero, the City Council didn't have the votes for the project.

[ppdd]

Have a safe trip. I'll be off, too. Probably much longer. Yes, let's keep our fingers crossed that not one but more than one tall building gets built in the Old Pueblo within 2 years.

Anyway, out of curiosity , I did a Google map of Tucson and came to the conclusion that Tucson might just be 40 square miles in size instead of the official 200 sq miles. Speedway Blvd is about 20 miles long. And most of the north-south roads are about 15-20 miles long. So , the Old Pueblo , is actually about 40 sq miles of habitable areas much like Paris, France (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris). I personally prefer Paris, France as a template for Tucson instead of Portland or Austin.

.

Are you saying that 20 miles long * 20 miles long = 40 square miles? (it's 400). You've estimated Tucson to be twice as large as it really is.

Right?

[farmerk]

Are you saying that 20 miles long * 20 miles long = 40 square miles? (it's 400). You've estimated Tucson to be twice as large as it really is.

Right?

HOLY S**T! You're right! Scratch that...miss the morning coffee and busy pack stuff! Thanks!

@Patrick, yep, there's still a lot of vacant lands in Tucson.

With regards with El Rio, maybe it's not over? Don't you need to a majority vote from the city council .... so far, 2 (Romero, Steve K) are against it, as far as I know.

ok. I'm off !! :)

[ProfessorMole]

Saw the empty lot on the Northeast corner of Speedway and 6th fenced off this morning with a UEB Builders sign on it. Before you get too excited, it's not a new building. It's temporary parking for the construction crews on the buildings up the road. I was really hoping it meant a fourth building, albeit in an odd location.

[southtucsonboy77]

Proposed 10-story UofA tower in downtown...

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/ua-wants-m-in-tax-funding/article_12cb7d79-0237-5466-be40-0c5173de5b1a.html

What are everyone's thoughts?

I'm curious as to where the location would be in downtown. Not trying to be sarcastic, but it would be amazing to get to the 10-story hump for our downtown. Still not the "skyscraper" we all want, but Tucson would be and has been progressing that way.

Along with the Economic Development/Roadway Infrastructure package Huckelberry has been promoting for the UofA Tech, Airport, Raytheon, Port of Tucson, etc this Bond has my vote.

[Patrick S]

Proposed 10-story UofA tower in downtown...

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/ua-wants-m-in-tax-funding/article_12cb7d79-0237-5466-be40-0c5173de5b1a.html

What are everyone's thoughts?

I'm curious as to where the location would be in downtown. Not trying to be sarcastic, but it would be amazing to get to the 10-story hump for our downtown. Still not the "skyscraper" we all want, but Tucson would be and has been progressing that way.

Along with the Economic Development/Roadway Infrastructure package Huckelberry has been promoting for the UofA Tech, Airport, Raytheon, Port of Tucson, etc this Bond has my vote.
Here's a link to the article: http://azstarnet.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/ua-wants-m-in-tax-funding/article_12cb7d79-0237-5466-be40-0c5173de5b1a.html

My thoughts are, it seems like an interesting idea, but I'd like to know a little more of the specifics before I committed to voting yes, or no, to the idea. Initially I thought it had not chance of passing, but if Maricopa County (or at least just Phoenix, wasn't sure exactly how that vote was) can vote to pass a bond package to build a downtown ASU campus we should be able to pass something similar (but you never know). Of course I like the thought of a 10 story building downtown (like the thought of a 20 story building even better), along with new cultural institutions, and the fixing up of a truly historic building (the current Pima County Courthouse). Again, I'd like to see specifics before I voted yes for this, but I'm more than willing to keep an open mind and unless the proposal is completely crazy or unfeasible, I'd more than likely be willing to support it.

[bthom3000]

If I've learned anything from living my whole life in Tucson, It's that people are going to fight this proposal the entire way and it will either be shelved or dramatically reduced in size. The city council has no backbone and will destroy this project. Plus the way that article is written and the way its displayed on azstarnets front page does not give good press for this project. Most people will read 'UofA wants $millions from tax payers." I guarantee that's how people will see this project and not for what it actually can do.
Bringing the incredible photography collection downtown to an arts district is a great idea. There's not too many museums that could be more successful here than that being that the university has one of the best photography collections in the world. And trying to keep small entrepreneurs here to grow their businesses is necessary.
If we can keep and grow small businesses than maybe in the near future there will be construction of 20+ floor building. Unless its blocking the NIMBYs views of the sky and mountains.

Proposed 10-story UofA tower in downtown...

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/ua-wants-m-in-tax-funding/article_12cb7d79-0237-5466-be40-0c5173de5b1a.html

What are everyone's thoughts?

I'm curious as to where the location would be in downtown. Not trying to be sarcastic, but it would be amazing to get to the 10-story hump for our downtown. Still not the "skyscraper" we all want, but Tucson would be and has been progressing that way.

Along with the Economic Development/Roadway Infrastructure package Huckelberry has been promoting for the UofA Tech, Airport, Raytheon, Port of Tucson, etc this Bond has my vote.

[Ted Lyons]

Here's a link to the article: http://azstarnet.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/ua-wants-m-in-tax-funding/article_12cb7d79-0237-5466-be40-0c5173de5b1a.html

My thoughts are, it seems like an interesting idea, but I'd like to know a little more of the specifics before I committed to voting yes, or no, to the idea. Initially I thought it had not chance of passing, but if Maricopa County (or at least just Phoenix, wasn't sure exactly how that vote was) can vote to pass a bond package to build a downtown ASU campus we should be able to pass something similar (but you never know). Of course I like the thought of a 10 story building downtown (like the thought of a 20 story building even better), along with new cultural institutions, and the fixing up of a truly historic building (the current Pima County Courthouse). Again, I'd like to see specifics before I voted yes for this, but I'm more than willing to keep an open mind and unless the proposal is completely crazy or unfeasible, I'd more than likely be willing to support it.

Thankfully, the bond package won't be tied exclusively to these projects.

[andrewsaturn]

If I've learned anything from living my whole life in Tucson, It's that people are going to fight this proposal the entire way and it will either be shelved or dramatically reduced in size. The city council has no backbone and will destroy this project. Plus the way that article is written and the way its displayed on azstarnets front page does not give good press for this project. Most people will read 'UofA wants $millions from tax payers." I guarantee that's how people will see this project and not for what it actually can do.
Bringing the incredible photography collection downtown to an arts district is a great idea. There's not too many museums that could be more successful here than that being that the university has one of the best photography collections in the world. And trying to keep small entrepreneurs here to grow their businesses is necessary.
If we can keep and grow small businesses than maybe in the near future there will be construction of 20+ floor building. Unless its blocking the NIMBYs views of the sky and mountains.

I agree, NOTHING that has a big price tag or development with potential economic impact has a easy route to being built here. Which is understandable because of the costs and it's financial future impact on the people of Tucson.

I like this project because it will add to the changing atmosphere of downtown Tucson. Ten stories isn't much but Tucson's skyline needs some more updating and we all know how even the look and feel of a city's supposed business center affects who wants to come visit or live here.

[Ted Lyons]

The thing about the bond committee is that they have the ability to compose the bond in a manner that appeals to a broad spectrum of people. That's not to say that will definitely happen, but it's possible. For example, if you mix the money for UA with projects like the parkway backed by Raytheon, you align Raytheon's interests, which appeal to a more conservative subset of Tucson voters, with the university's, which do not. This is the benefit of packaging the projects together and I'm sure Chuck Huckleberry has been thinking of how to do this most effectively since the bond idea originated.

[ppdd]

The thing about the bond committee is that they have the ability to compose the bond in a manner that appeals to a broad spectrum of people. That's not to say that will definitely happen, but it's possible. For example, if you mix the money for UA with projects like the parkway backed by Raytheon, you align Raytheon's interests, which appeal to a more conservative subset of Tucson voters, with the university's, which do not. This is the benefit of packaging the projects together and I'm sure Chuck Huckleberry has been thinking of how to do this most effectively since the bond idea originated.

But the flip side of this is that the committee is very cautious about what goes into the package. They have a great track record and the assumption is that the bond passes - they have to basically know what will pass before the final composition is revealed. If this project isn't looking good and it may endanger the bond as a whole, it won't be risked. Personally, I'd be surprised to see this included, especially since there may be other slightly unconventional proposals in the bond.

[cdsuofa]

I read on TIBO that the U of A was also looking into building a new College of Law building downtown so it can be near the courthouses. I think thats a completely separate entity than what would be funded by this bond. That would be great for bringing in more law offices to the downtown area I think.

[aznate27]

If I've learned anything from living my whole life in Tucson, It's that people are going to fight this proposal the entire way and it will either be shelved or dramatically reduced in size. The city council has no backbone and will destroy this project. Plus the way that article is written and the way its displayed on azstarnets front page does not give good press for this project. Most people will read 'UofA wants $millions from tax payers." I guarantee that's how people will see this project and not for what it actually can do.
Bringing the incredible photography collection downtown to an arts district is a great idea. There's not too many museums that could be more successful here than that being that the university has one of the best photography collections in the world. And trying to keep small entrepreneurs here to grow their businesses is necessary.
If we can keep and grow small businesses than maybe in the near future there will be construction of 20+ floor building. Unless its blocking the NIMBYs views of the sky and mountains.

I completely agree. The way the article was written seemed almost more against the project. This will be a really hard sell for Tucson. Even I would like to know more about it than just vote yes.

[Ted Lyons]

But the flip side of this is that the committee is very cautious about what goes into the package. They have a great track record and the assumption is that the bond passes - they have to basically know what will pass before the final composition is revealed. If this project isn't looking good and it may endanger the bond as a whole, it won't be risked. Personally, I'd be surprised to see this included, especially since there may be other slightly unconventional proposals in the bond.

That's totally true but, going forward, there's a certain benefit to a project like this never making the bond package over being included in a package that's turned down by voters. I will say that, no matter what, some projects that appeal to more liberal voters will have to be included in the final package. The Raytheon parkway project, which has some significant detractors and will face a major PR battle when people realize it's partially being planned to service a proposed CCA prison on the southeast side, probably won't win as the lone marquee project.

[cdsuofa]

That's totally true but, going forward, there's a certain benefit to a project like this never making the bond package over being included in a package that's turned down by voters. I will say that, no matter what, some projects that appeal to more liberal voters will have to be included in the final package. The Raytheon parkway project, which has some significant detractors and will face a major PR battle when people realize it's partially being planned to service a proposed CCA prison on the southeast side, probably won't win as the lone marquee project.
The perception will definitely be "They need to spend their money on education! Tuition is too high already!" much like it is when it comes to sports(dont get me started on that) without knowing any of the facts. I dont have a single problem with them building a CCA Prison, heck its more jobs, it will probably just be used to hold illegals more than anything and its not as if escapees will be roaming through peoples houses every week. The county jail sits next to a normal neighborhood. But the perception is what matters tho and most people will perceive just that, that prisons are dangerous terrible places to be anywhere near and they dont want one anywhere near Tucson. The Pkwy will have many benefactors and more throughout time. I keep going back to the streetcar project as an example of the local government making an investment in the community that is paying off in droves already, and its not even complete. Spending a lot of money at one time to make much much more than that in the long term. Tucson has had a hard time grasping that concept, both the residents and the politicians. Rio Nuevo of course squashed a lot of peoples confidence in that idea. Sigh. Tucson is such a tough place for progression.

[aznate27]

An article on the new El Rio Health building going up on Congress...

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/azstarnet.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/1/53/153fe3a8-3ef0-5d36-abdf-eba571d82a8b/51a578f14d115.preview-620.jpg

El Rio Clinic on road to expansion (http://azstarnet.com/news/science/health-med-fit/el-rio-clinic-on-road-to-expansion/article_45ce22e5-c117-5989-b806-5c8cc1cebfd2.html)
It's a new beginning' that will mean more services for city's poor

May 29, 2013 12:00 am • Joseph Treviño Arizona Daily Star

After years of struggles, a group of 1960s activists finally saw El Rio Health Center open its brand-spanking new doors in Menlo Park. That was in 1978.

The one-story building at 839 W. Congress St., west of Interstate 10, was a vindication made of concrete, iron and glass in the quest for a place to provide better health care for Tucsonans too poor to pay their medical bills.

Now the facility which has been the center of a health crusade against maladies like diabetes and where the midwifery section has prepared countless expectant mothers, will be razed to make way for a new and improved building that will surpass the current structure, officials said.

The groundbreaking for the new Congress Street clinic will be Friday. El Rio officials believe that the facility will open by mid-2014...(full article above)

[Ted Lyons]

The perception will definitely be "They need to spend their money on education! Tuition is too high already!" much like it is when it comes to sports(dont get me started on that) without knowing any of the facts. I dont have a single problem with them building a CCA Prison, heck its more jobs, it will probably just be used to hold illegals more than anything and its not as if escapees will be roaming through peoples houses every week. The county jail sits next to a normal neighborhood. But the perception is what matters tho and most people will perceive just that, that prisons are dangerous terrible places to be anywhere near and they dont want one anywhere near Tucson. The Pkwy will have many benefactors and more throughout time. I keep going back to the streetcar project as an example of the local government making an investment in the community that is paying off in droves already, and its not even complete. Spending a lot of money at one time to make much much more than that in the long term. Tucson has had a hard time grasping that concept, both the residents and the politicians. Rio Nuevo of course squashed a lot of peoples confidence in that idea. Sigh. Tucson is such a tough place for progression.

CCA is the most dangerous company in America. We don't need Jan Brewer's pet project in Tucson.

[cdsuofa]

CCA is the most dangerous company in America. We don't need Jan Brewer's pet project in Tucson.
Would you be for it if we stuck her in the prison for the rest of her life? :) She def belongs there

[Ted Lyons]

Would you be for it if we stuck her in the prison for the rest of her life? :) She def belongs there

Ha. I'm all for bargaining.

Seriously, though, the parkway could be great for tech and aerospace business, so I'm definitely a supporter of the project as long as it truly connects 19 and 10. However, the speculative nature of those developments weighed against a private prison make for a tough sell for a lot of Tucson voters which is how a project like one of the UA proposals downtown could make it into the bond.

[Patrick S]

New UA biosciences park still seeking its 1st tenant (http://azstarnet.com/business/local/new-ua-biosciences-park-still-seeking-its-st-tenant/article_273e2ae3-713c-5a4b-b263-464763e2d04e.html)
BUT MIXED-USE PROJECT IS DRAWING INTEREST FROM ARRAY OF RETAILERS
David Wichner Arizona Daily Star

The University of Arizona's bioscience business park has yet to attract its first tenant, but the site's adjacent retail space is expanding.

Construction is underway on three retail shop buildings and a McDonald's restaurant at Tucson Marketplace at The Bridges, a mixed-use development near South Kino Parkway and East 36th Street that includes the Arizona Bioscience Park.

The shops - together comprising some 23,000 square feet - are about half-leased, said Eric Davis, president of Boise, Idaho-based Retail West Properties.

Retail West is developing the retail part of The Bridges, which so far includes as anchor tenants a Walmart Supercenter that opened last year and a Costco Wholesale that opened in 2011.

"We're getting good interest, because the Costco and Walmart are doing very well," Davis said.

The buildings under development will feature a mix of shopping-center staples, including cellphone stores, services such as hair salons and specialty stores, he said.

Davis said he expects the new retail spaces will be turned over to tenants by September, with some store openings in October.

The property's leasing agent, Land Advisors Organization, shows on its website that two pads near Walmart will house Sports Clips, a Sprint store, a Wienerschnitzel restaurant with a drive-thru and a Sally Beauty Supply. A pad near Costco, at the development's east end, will house a Mattress Firm store, Great Clips and Subway.

Elsewhere on the 350-acre site of The Bridges development, homebuilders KB Home and Lennar Homes are working on site preparations for a planned subdivision on the project's west side.

Meanwhile, talks continue with potential tenants for the planned UA Bio Park, which occupies the north end of The Bridges, said Bruce Wright, CEO of the UA Tech Park and UA Bio Park.

A multistory office and laboratory building has been envisioned for the project's initial phase, but nothing has been built yet.

Wright said the UA has been in talks with three possible bioscience tenants, with one still in serious discussions.

[azliam]

New UA biosciences park still seeking its 1st tenant (http://azstarnet.com/business/local/new-ua-biosciences-park-still-seeking-its-st-tenant/article_273e2ae3-713c-5a4b-b263-464763e2d04e.html)
BUT MIXED-USE PROJECT IS DRAWING INTEREST FROM ARRAY OF RETAILERS
David Wichner Arizona Daily Star

The University of Arizona's bioscience business park has yet to attract its first tenant, but the site's adjacent retail space is expanding.

Construction is underway on three retail shop buildings and a McDonald's restaurant at Tucson Marketplace at The Bridges, a mixed-use development near South Kino Parkway and East 36th Street that includes the Arizona Bioscience Park.

The shops - together comprising some 23,000 square feet - are about half-leased, said Eric Davis, president of Boise, Idaho-based Retail West Properties.

Retail West is developing the retail part of The Bridges, which so far includes as anchor tenants a Walmart Supercenter that opened last year and a Costco Wholesale that opened in 2011.

"We're getting good interest, because the Costco and Walmart are doing very well," Davis said.

The buildings under development will feature a mix of shopping-center staples, including cellphone stores, services such as hair salons and specialty stores, he said.

Davis said he expects the new retail spaces will be turned over to tenants by September, with some store openings in October.

The property's leasing agent, Land Advisors Organization, shows on its website that two pads near Walmart will house Sports Clips, a Sprint store, a Wienerschnitzel restaurant with a drive-thru and a Sally Beauty Supply. A pad near Costco, at the development's east end, will house a Mattress Firm store, Great Clips and Subway.

Elsewhere on the 350-acre site of The Bridges development, homebuilders KB Home and Lennar Homes are working on site preparations for a planned subdivision on the project's west side.

Meanwhile, talks continue with potential tenants for the planned UA Bio Park, which occupies the north end of The Bridges, said Bruce Wright, CEO of the UA Tech Park and UA Bio Park.

A multistory office and laboratory building has been envisioned for the project's initial phase, but nothing has been built yet.

Wright said the UA has been in talks with three possible bioscience tenants, with one still in serious discussions.

Is this UA Bio Park the same one as this:

http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue/2006/06/21/16569-bioscience-park-a-tech-boost/

[Patrick S]

Is this UA Bio Park the same one as this:

http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue/2006/06/21/16569-bioscience-park-a-tech-boost/
Yes. Here is a link to the entire project, from the housing, to the bioscience park, to the shopping center: http://www.tucsonmarketplaceatthebridges.com/

[azliam]

Yes. Here is a link to the entire project, from the housing, to the bioscience park, to the shopping center: http://www.tucsonmarketplaceatthebridges.com/

It is sad that this project has taken as long as it has. I used to live pretty close to this and I remember looking forward to it years ago.

[Patrick S]

It is sad that this project has taken as long as it has. I used to live pretty close to this and I remember looking forward to it years ago.
I thought I remember reading somewhere where the developers thought it would take 20-30 years to be fully built out. That being said, I think it was assumed there would be some housing built by now and the hotel/convention &/or office buildings (mentioned in the article) would also be under construction. At least the retail seems to be coming along pretty nicely, and there seems to be some movement on some housing (I've posted about this in the last couple months, it seems to be in part of the land that is west of Park Ave.).

[southtucsonboy77]

http://http://www.pdc.arizona.edu/Project/12-9134

The UofA is planning on building a Bioscience Research Laboratories with a construction date of June 2014. The rendering shows an approx. 4-5 story building that will be located near UMC (now UAMC).

I'm sure there's logical reasons for this, but the name and use of the building would seem appropriate for the Bio Park at the Bridges...wouldn't it? Just a curious question. Perhaps the Park is only for private firms...

...another UofA facility in the works, to be located on a current parking lot on Speedway near Mountain, is a building to be called Engineering Innovation Building. No rendering is provided yet.

http://www.pdc.arizona.edu/Project/05-8623

[Patrick S]

Have to say, this was the last thing I expected to read on AZ Daily Star's website this morning. I usually disagree with all those posters on their website you constantly put Tucson down and hate all the grand ideas, but I'm not sold on this, at all. Just don't think our leaders are thinking correctly on this one.

Pima sees Formula 1 racetrack in future (http://azstarnet.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/pima-sees-formula-racetrack-in-future/article_1495b160-1302-57d4-a1c0-c7bfd08124fe.html)
SUPERVISORS OK SEARCH FOR PARTY TO BUILD VENUE NEAR FAIRGROUNDS
Joe Ferguson Arizona Daily Star

The world of Formula One racing could be coming to Tucson.

The Pima County Board of Supervisors has given the green light for the county economic development staff to investigate leasing 400 acres south of the Pima County Fairgrounds for open-wheel racing, and finding someone willing to build a track.

Plans are in the earliest of stages, said Tom Moulton, the director of economic development and tourism for Pima County.

The staff will spend the next three weeks drafting a plan for a long-term lease for the site, allowing a third party to build a several-mile-long track to be used for Formula One races as well as other kinds of open-wheel racing circuits.

The cost could be in the tens of millions of dollars for the developer, Moulton estimated.

The county may be able to offer some economic incentives to the developer of the racetrack, but Moulton was not prepared to elaborate.

The idea to build a world-class track, which would attract organized professional races, was borne from designing a master plan for the fairgrounds as well as surrounding the Southeast Regional Park Pima County, Moulton said.

With the paved NASCAR track at the Tucson Speedway, the Southwestern International Dragway and the Musselman Honda Circuit already at the fairgrounds, planners are looking for ways to complement existing attractions.

The county has been looking to expand racing facilities next to the fairgrounds since at least 2010, according to county documents.

With no nearby neighbors to complain about the noise, Moulton believes the fairgrounds is perfect for Formula One racing.

The proposal to build a new track is expected to go before the supervisors again in July; they will have the final say before the long-term lease is publically released.

Moulton expects to bring qualifying proposals back in the fall, although he cautions it will at least be several years before any Formula One cars will be zipping around around that particular track.

He estimated it would take at least three years before a third party could design and build a world-class facility on the site.

[Ted Lyons]

Have to say, this was the last thing I expected to read on AZ Daily Star's website this morning. I usually disagree with all those posters on their website you constantly put Tucson down and hate all the grand ideas, but I'm not sold on this, at all. Just don't think our leaders are thinking correctly on this one.

Pima sees Formula 1 racetrack in future (http://azstarnet.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/pima-sees-formula-racetrack-in-future/article_1495b160-1302-57d4-a1c0-c7bfd08124fe.html)
SUPERVISORS OK SEARCH FOR PARTY TO BUILD VENUE NEAR FAIRGROUNDS
Joe Ferguson Arizona Daily Star

The world of Formula One racing could be coming to Tucson.

The Pima County Board of Supervisors has given the green light for the county economic development staff to investigate leasing 400 acres south of the Pima County Fairgrounds for open-wheel racing, and finding someone willing to build a track.

Plans are in the earliest of stages, said Tom Moulton, the director of economic development and tourism for Pima County.

The staff will spend the next three weeks drafting a plan for a long-term lease for the site, allowing a third party to build a several-mile-long track to be used for Formula One races as well as other kinds of open-wheel racing circuits.

The cost could be in the tens of millions of dollars for the developer, Moulton estimated.

The county may be able to offer some economic incentives to the developer of the racetrack, but Moulton was not prepared to elaborate.

The idea to build a world-class track, which would attract organized professional races, was borne from designing a master plan for the fairgrounds as well as surrounding the Southeast Regional Park Pima County, Moulton said.

With the paved NASCAR track at the Tucson Speedway, the Southwestern International Dragway and the Musselman Honda Circuit already at the fairgrounds, planners are looking for ways to complement existing attractions.

The county has been looking to expand racing facilities next to the fairgrounds since at least 2010, according to county documents.

With no nearby neighbors to complain about the noise, Moulton believes the fairgrounds is perfect for Formula One racing.

The proposal to build a new track is expected to go before the supervisors again in July; they will have the final say before the long-term lease is publically released.

Moulton expects to bring qualifying proposals back in the fall, although he cautions it will at least be several years before any Formula One cars will be zipping around around that particular track.

He estimated it would take at least three years before a third party could design and build a world-class facility on the site.

There's really no harm in drafting a lease to see if a developer is interested in building a track on land that's already been designated for such a use. I'm not confident anyone will be interested given the fact that the Austin F1 track isn't very far away, but the county isn't expending much money on the project (right now).

[southtucsonboy77]

Perhaps the majority of us are not big spectators of the Formula 1/NASCAR sport, but they certainly do have a large market throughout the United States. We even have a local kid from the NW side who is a hot prospect and is participating in the NASCAR Nationwide Series, the minor league circuit (I know, TMI). Anyhow, I'm curious as to what figures they have on the potential success it would have in Tucson.

If it does receive interest from a developer, then I'm guessing the much talked about hotel activity at the UofA Tech Park will have a slightly stronger case to finally be built.

[Patrick S]

There's really no harm in drafting a lease to see if a developer is interested in building a track on land that's already been designated for such a use. I'm not confident anyone will be interested given the fact that the Austin F1 track isn't very far away, but the county isn't expending much money on the project (right now).
I found this article, and read it, at about 4:30am, so I was very tired. Upon rereading it I realize that, in theory, the county wouldn't spend much money on the project. It would be privately funded. If a private company thinks there is a market (and they think they can attract a race) and they want to build, I'm, of course, fine with that. I just don't see much of a market nor do I see them being able to attract a race.

[southtucsonboy77]

http://tucsoncitizen.com/mark-evans/archives/831/

This article from the TucsonCitizen.com website makes very good points against the racetrack...

[Patrick S]

http://tucsoncitizen.com/mark-evans/archives/831/

This article from the TucsonCitizen.com website makes very good points against the racetrack...
I'm willing to listen to arguments for the other side (pro-track), but this article makes very good sense and points. I could see myself supporting it (if there is very minimal public investment), but I feel I am more likely to not support it, at least based on the information I have now.

[Ted Lyons]

That op-ed is premised on some fundamental fallacies.

First, if we're going to compare to Circuit of the Americas, which we should, we should probably compare apples to apples. Circuit of the Americas has eleven events currently scheduled between now and the end of the year. Three of those events alone take up seven days. So, to act as though the venue would only be busy two weeks per year based upon its primary purpose is disingenuous.

Second, there are no public resorts located in direct proximity to Circuit of the Americas. So, although it seems unbelievable to this author, the teams don't stay right on premises or they do at private facilities, which could be built at any track, which negates the entire argument regarding the feasibility of a resort near the fairgrounds.

Third, (and this is coming from someone who isn't very interested in any type of racing), F1's popularity is on the rise in the US. This is primarily due to the fact that NBC Sports bought the rights to F1, which were previously owned by Speed (which hardly anyone watches), and they're actually taking the property seriously.

Regardless, none of this matters if the county's lease deal and unrevealed incentives package are unpalatable to developers/voters. Until we find that out, all of this discussion is premature and baseless.

[cdsuofa]

From what I understand there will be no public funding involved in this project other than the possible tax breaks. Im all for it, Arizona and Florida are the only two locations that events like these can take place in winter months so we should capitalize on that fact like we had with spring training and the golf tournament. We should keep adding to the list. Sports are a big economic booster to a community. I do realize that F1 is not NASCAR so maybe we should be putting some eggs in that basket as well. I know there are plenty of NASCAR fans in southern Arizona maybe we should be lobbying more for a televised NASCAR event in Tucson and improvements to that track first. I dunno I just know we need to succeed with sports because we have failed miserably in the past. P.S. Dont most racing teams stay in RVs anyhow?

[Patrick S]

From what I understand there will be no public funding involved in this project other than the possible tax breaks. Im all for it, Arizona and Florida are the only two locations that events like these can take place in winter months so we should capitalize on that fact like we had with spring training and the golf tournament. We should keep adding to the list. Sports are a big economic booster to a community. I do realize that F1 is not NASCAR so maybe we should be putting some eggs in that basket as well. I know there are plenty of NASCAR fans in southern Arizona maybe we should be lobbying more for a televised NASCAR event in Tucson and improvements to that track first. I dunno I just know we need to succeed with sports because we have failed miserably in the past. P.S. Dont most racing teams stay in RVs anyhow?
I don't know that Florida and Arizona are the only 2 states that can have these events over the winter. I'm sure California could, and I'd bet south Texas can too. I don't follow any racing really, so I don't know what the season is like anyway, if they even do F-1 racing over the winter. Also, I don't know about racing teams staying in RVs. I know a lot of NASCAR fans do this, parking in the infield, but I doubt F-1 fans from Europe would want to do the same.

[southtucsonboy77]

The unexpected F-1 racetrack article/proposal made my head spin with ideas that made me wish I won the lottery like the 80+ year old Florida lady...cdsuofa and the blogger from tucsoncitizen.com alluded to this...we need to dig into our sports/entertainment potential.

I won't get to the details, but FC Tucson is on a roll...it will only be a matter of years that we'll be 1 or 2 divisions below the MLS (currently 3 divisions below)...let's keep investing in that, as the County is now...and even look at reconfiguring Kino Stadium.

Secondly, I'm all for an arena...BUT to build an arena for the purpose of minor league basketball or hockey, we'll be going for broke all over again. If we need an "arena" for concerts, then the region should look at alternatives, like an outdoor amphitheater. Here's a comparison with Albuquerque, a metro pop. slightly smaller than Tucson:

Albuquerque (approx. 900,000)
Isleta Amphitheater: 15,000 capacity, major acts bookings and similar in size to the Desert Sky Pavilion in Phx
Sandia Amphitheater: 4,000 capacity, brand-new facility, books act similar to AVA Amphitheater
Santa Ana Star Center: 7,500 capacity, located in Rio Rancho, subarb similar to Marana/Oro Valley.

Tucson (approx. 1,000,000)
AVA Amphitheater: 5,000 capacity
Diamond Center: approx 1,000 capacity
Kino Stadium: approx. 11,500 capacity, with awkward baseball configuration
TCC: doesn't matter, it's obsolete

The Santa Ana Star Center arena hosts/hosted minor league hockey, indoor football, and NBA Developmental League team. Light attendance has caused some of these teams to fold or to consider a move. The city of Rio Rancho has to pay $3.6 million out of its budget to keep the arena afloat. This is why building a public/private arena and banking on minor league sports to fill seats is a huge miscalculation. On the brightside, they do get good acts.

Kino Stadium is okay for KFMA Day and Fall Ball concerts, but the sound system, configuration, lack of a major promotional affiliation, and current sporting events deter major acts/tours from making their way to Tucson.

My whole point is: we should build a major amphitheater in our region that can attract major tours; partner with a private investor; partner with a major promotional company; and hold off on the arena idea. When I worked for the Tribe, Hard Rock approached the decision-makers. We checked the numbers and it wasn't the right fit. Hard Rock wanted too much. But there are investors out there who are interested.

[Patrick S]

The unexpected F-1 racetrack article/proposal made my head spin with ideas that made me wish I won the lottery like the 80+ year old Florida lady...cdsuofa and the blogger from tucsoncitizen.com alluded to this...we need to dig into our sports/entertainment potential.

I won't get to the details, but FC Tucson is on a roll...it will only be a matter of years that we'll be 1 or 2 divisions below the MLS (currently 3 divisions below)...let's keep investing in that, as the County is now...and even look at reconfiguring Kino Stadium.

Secondly, I'm all for an arena...BUT to build an arena for the purpose of minor league basketball or hockey, we'll be going for broke all over again. If we need an "arena" for concerts, then the region should look at alternatives, like an outdoor amphitheater. Here's a comparison with Albuquerque, a metro pop. slightly smaller than Tucson:

Albuquerque (approx. 900,000)
Isleta Amphitheater: 15,000 capacity, major acts bookings and similar in size to the Desert Sky Pavilion in Phx
Sandia Amphitheater: 4,000 capacity, brand-new facility, books act similar to AVA Amphitheater
Santa Ana Star Center: 7,500 capacity, located in Rio Rancho, subarb similar to Marana/Oro Valley.

Tucson (approx. 1,000,000)
AVA Amphitheater: 5,000 capacity
Diamond Center: approx 1,000 capacity
Kino Stadium: approx. 11,500 capacity, with awkward baseball configuration
TCC: doesn't matter, it's obsolete

The Santa Ana Star Center arena hosts/hosted minor league hockey, indoor football, and NBA Developmental League team. Light attendance has caused some of these teams to fold or to consider a move. The city of Rio Rancho has to pay $3.6 million out of its budget to keep the arena afloat. This is why building a public/private arena and banking on minor league sports to fill seats is a huge miscalculation. On the brightside, they do get good acts.

Kino Stadium is okay for KFMA Day and Fall Ball concerts, but the sound system, configuration, lack of a major promotional affiliation, and current sporting events deter major acts/tours from making their way to Tucson.

My whole point is: we should build a major amphitheater in our region that can attract major tours; partner with a private investor; partner with a major promotional company; and hold off on the arena idea. When I worked for the Tribe, Hard Rock approached the decision-makers. We checked the numbers and it wasn't the right fit. Hard Rock wanted too much. But there are investors out there who are interested.
You make some interesting points but I think you're missing one major factor into why Tucson doesn't get better concerts. I don't think it's because we don't have the facilities to get them. I think we don't have the facilities because we wouldn't get the shows even if we did. The reason we still wouldn't get them even if we did is because of our neighbor up I-10, Phoenix. Albuquerque is much more isolated from its nearest major city neighbors, El Paso and Denver, than we are from Phoenix.

To get from Albuquerque to Denver on I-25 it's 445 miles and about a 6 hour, 30 minute drive, and though US Hwy-285 is shorter distance (by about 26 miles), it takes almost an extra hour to drive. To get from Albuquerque to El Paso (also on I-25) it's about 270 miles and a little over 3 hours 48 minutes. To get from Tucson to Phoenix on I-10 it is about 115 miles and the drive is about 1 hour 49 minutes. (All distances and times are according to Google Maps)

While El Paso is bigger than both Albuquerque and Tucson with a population of almost 650,000 in 2010, it's metro population was smaller than both in 2010, with a little over 800,000 (though this doesn't include Ciudad Juarez in Mexico which has an estimated population of almost 1.5 million). Denver on the other hand had a 2010 population of a little over 600,000 and a metro area population of over 2.5 million in 2010. If you add Boulder into the area (the census defined Denver-Aurora-Boulder Combined Statistical Area) the population was over 3 million in 2010. Phoenix is much bigger than either of these two areas and also much closer to Tucson than El Paso or Denver is to Albuquerque.

The fact is that even with better facilities I don't think many bands are gonna go to both Tucson and Phoenix, and even fewer are gonna go just to Tucson over Phoenix. Albuquerque is so much farther away from its large neighbors that are even smaller than Phoenix. I think they have more of a demand for concerts because of this and thus they have better facilities to host them.

[southtucsonboy77]

You make some interesting points but I think you're missing one major factor into why Tucson doesn't get better concerts. I don't think it's because we don't have the facilities to get them. I think we don't have the facilities because we wouldn't get the shows even if we did. The reason we still wouldn't get them even if we did is because of our neighbor up I-10, Phoenix. Albuquerque is much more isolated from its nearest major city neighbors, El Paso and Denver, than we are from Phoenix.

To get from Albuquerque to Denver on I-25 it's 445 miles and about a 6 hour, 30 minute drive, and though US Hwy-285 is shorter distance (by about 26 miles), it takes almost an extra hour to drive. To get from Albuquerque to El Paso (also on I-25) it's about 270 miles and a little over 3 hours 48 minutes. To get from Tucson to Phoenix on I-10 it is about 115 miles and the drive is about 1 hour 49 minutes. (All distances and times are according to Google Maps)

While El Paso is bigger than both Albuquerque and Tucson with a population of almost 650,000 in 2010, it's metro population was smaller than both in 2010, with a little over 800,000 (though this doesn't include Ciudad Juarez in Mexico which has an estimated population of almost 1.5 million). Denver on the other hand had a 2010 population of a little over 600,000 and a metro area population of over 2.5 million in 2010. If you add Boulder into the area (the census defined Denver-Aurora-Boulder Combined Statistical Area) the population was over 3 million in 2010. Phoenix is much bigger than either of these two areas and also much closer to Tucson than El Paso or Denver is to Albuquerque.

The fact is that even with better facilities I don't think many bands are gonna go to both Tucson and Phoenix, and even fewer are gonna go just to Tucson over Phoenix. Albuquerque is so much farther away from its large neighbors that are even smaller than Phoenix. I think they have more of a demand for concerts because of this and thus they have better facilities to host them.

Good points! Albq is an interesting place...the mentality and pride of the city is so unique due to their distances to other major cities.

Although, with some analysis that we did in the past, there are tours who have the market to do both Phoenix and Tucson. Phx metro is so huge now that they don't need to include Tucson for its market calculation. For example, Florida Georia Line is doing both Tucson and Phoenix. The big difference is that Luke Bryan, who is touring with Florida Georia Line and is the headliner, is not making the stop in Tucson. In cases like this, its usually because a region like Tucson doesn't have a facility that can facilitate the larger crowd that a Luke Bryan (solo) and/or Luke Bryan-Florida Georgia Line bill would require or have available. So Tucson could still be a stop even if Phoenix is a stop...probably not as often as Albq due to the reasons you mentioned, but there's definitely a market here. I can also name off a few tours that came through Tucson and didn't stop in Phoenix...but those were years ago.

[Ritarancher]

I'm back from vacation

I sort of skimmed through the regina Romero thing about the college and what I understood was that golf courses make a place that's poor seem nicer than it is and a new college that makes less people poor by providing education and jobs makes too much sense to fix a city's poverty problem.

And 10 story UofA tower? It's not going to happen. Neither is the green line and probably most of the Gadsden development area for probably the next 20-50 years. Truth is, is that I'm going to be dead by the time the city decides to do anything else in downtown. I'm really angry about the Romeos comment. If a private developer comes we always shoot them down and complain nobody wants to help us....,, I'm going to cut myself off right there, ill be back when something important happens