Tucson Development Thread

[azsunsurfer]

Phoenix is the nation's 5th largest — but is it a 'real' city? (http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2017/06/11/phoenix-nation-5th-largest-but-real-city/369917001/)

I know, not about a Tucson project, however its a great AZ Republic article reflecting on how Phx falls short in comparison to other URBAN major and large cities. For me, it explains why Phx is not my cup of tea.

Well you can keep sipping your tea as your city is continually passed over for major job announcements to your "non-real city" neighbor to the north!

[azliam]

Well you can keep sipping your tea as your city is continually passed over for major job announcements to your "non-real city" neighbor to the north!

Yeah, I used to sip that tea once. In the early 90's, I used to hope that Tucson would one day grow to rival Phoenix. I waited, and I waited, and I waited...

Eventually, I needed to make a move in order to advance my career. I have good memories of Tucson, but I find it ridiculous how some from Tucson believe (and frequently comment how) Phoenix falls short of other cities when Tucson itself is in a completely different (downgraded) class altogether.

[kmiller5]

Well you can keep sipping your tea as your city is continually passed over for major job announcements to your "non-real city" neighbor to the north!

Awww. Did the AZCentral article hurt your fragile feelings? Your insecurity speaks volumes about how you really feel about Phoenix.

[ASU Diablo]

Well you can keep sipping your tea as your city is continually passed over for major job announcements to your "non-real city" neighbor to the north!

Agreed. Inferiority complex at its best

[andrewsaturn]

Yeah, I used to sip that tea once. In the early 90's, I used to hope that Tucson would one day grow to rival Phoenix. I waited, and I waited, and I waited...

Eventually, I needed to make a move in order to advance my career. I have good memories of Tucson, but I find it ridiculous how some from Tucson believe (and frequently comment how) Phoenix falls short of other cities when Tucson itself is in a completely different (downgraded) class altogether.

Different. Yes. Downgraded? Absolutely not. I can understand higher paying jobs and better entertainment options but Tucson can hold its own. Top 10 biking city, better air quality, a richer culture and top 10 schools. Basis schools was founded in Tucson. Also, how many cities in North America is UNESCO's city of gastronomy?

[azsunsurfer]

Don't worry Phoenix has just as many problems....I am just biased to the East Valley :cool:

[crzyabe]

In Phoenix you are always 5 mins from an Olive Garden but 100 miles from culture

Tucson has many problems, but it is rich in history and embraces its diversity. I feel as if Phoenix covers up all of that with a blanket of blandness.

Tucson's fatal flaw is that we try to compete with Phoenix. We will never win that. Instead, we should strive to be the states' alternative. Where Phoenix continues to spread out with cookie cutter housing developments, Tucson should look to infill, preserving and growing its older, culturally significant neighborhoods. Where Phoenix marks success by the construction of another strip mall with chain stores and restaurants, Tucson should work to support its local businesses that make the city unique.

I want Tucson to have a relationship to Phoenix similar to what Austin has to Dallas. I want Tucson to be that smaller, cooler, more laid back city to the South. We kill ourselves by constantly comparing ourselves to Phoenix

[southtucsonboy77]

The AZ Republic article was very self-reflective. I can write an article about what sucks about Tucson...but the pluses are what keeps me here. People can write negative and/or self-reflective pieces on Tucson all day long...I'll read it and say: Yes, that's true...no, that's wrong...oh, never looked at it that way...but unless it gets racial, I'll respect the opinion.

IF I were to live in a major-metro area I would live in a city like Seattle, SF, NY, Chicago, Boston...not Phx for many of the reasons stated. A plus for Phx for me would me proximity to Tucson and affordability (as a large metro area, which was mentioned in the article), that's about it. I grew up dreaming of living in L.A., however after living near the Bay area for a few years, and my profession being a planner, the extreme urban sprawl of certain cities vs the importance of density, culture, and transportation really became important to me.

There are many cool things about Phx...but not important enough to make me move there. I know its hard for some Phoenicians to understand why and how many Tucsonans live and cherish this region...but I guess it can only be explained as a Tucson-thing. Same way I can wear my UofA gear in Chicago and a stranger will pass me and say, "Beardown!" Its a small gesture and example, but part of our culture.

[azsunsurfer]

Olive Garden? You obviously have not been to the valley lately. I can find so many different cuisines from other parts of the world that I can't find in Tucson....

[Ted Lyons]

Phoenix is the nation's 5th largest — but is it a 'real' city? (http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2017/06/11/phoenix-nation-5th-largest-but-real-city/369917001/)

I know, not about a Tucson project, however its a great AZ Republic article reflecting on how Phx falls short in comparison to other URBAN major and large cities. For me, it explains why Phx is not my cup of tea.

You had to know the troll army would jump on this.

[Ballister]

I don't consider myself a troll and I am a Phoenix resident, but I love Tucson for exactly what it is and isn't. I always enjoy coming down and enjoying the unique things that make Tucson a wonderful place. The fact that some of you can't see that in reverse is ridiculous. Firstly, Phoenix has incredible restaurants, galleries, museums, beautiful neighborhoods and has a downtown culture that is progressive and active. New urban pioneers are reviving neighborhood after neighborhood at a level that you may never experience due to our much bigger population and new influx of people here. On average, nearly 80K people have been moving here each year for the past few years. If you pass through on a freeway or don't come to really get to know what makes Phoenix tick, you're really missing a lot, just as anyone passing Tucson and not thinking much of it from driving by it on I-10. We both exist with great attributes each.

[Ted Lyons]

I don't consider myself a troll and I am a Phoenix resident, but I love Tucson for exactly what it is and isn't. I always enjoy coming down and enjoying the unique things that make Tucson a wonderful place. The fact that some of you can't see that in reverse is ridiculous. Firstly, Phoenix has incredible restaurants, galleries, museums, beautiful neighborhoods and has a downtown culture that is progressive and active. New urban pioneers are reviving neighborhood after neighborhood at a level that you may never experience due to our much bigger population and new influx of people here. On average, nearly 80K people have been moving here each year for the past few years. If you pass through on a freeway or don't come to really get to know what makes Phoenix tick, you're really missing a lot, just as anyone passing Tucson and not thinking much of it from driving by it on I-10. We both exist with great attributes each.

Thank you for a thoughtful contribution. Most of my wife's family lives in Phoenix and, although I don't go out of my way to visit frequently, there are definitely areas in the Valley that have appeal. That appeal, though, generally doesn't seem to be premised on a unique sense of place and I think that's a big reason that Phoenix feels like flyover country to many people. In other words, what is it about Phoenix destinations that makes a visitor feel like they help define the city? I'm honestly not sure in this case, but I think that's what draws people back to a place.

For all of Tucson's problems, it definitely offers a sense of place that some people really buy into. Other people - the ones who refer to Tucson as an extension of Mexico in often derogatory tones - may not buy into it, but they obviously still experience it.

[azsunsurfer]

Could we get back to development related discussion and table the cultural appropriation speak?

[NicosSuperfries]

Resonance, a travel branding firm, rated Tucson as the second best city with a population under a million! First place went to Honolulu. The article is linked below:

http://resonanceco.com/blog/watch-americas-best-cities-revealed/

[southtucsonboy77]

Resonance, a travel branding firm, rated Tucson as the second best city with a population under a million! First place went to Honolulu. The article is linked below:

http://resonanceco.com/blog/watch-americas-best-cities-revealed/

I enjoyed watching the video describing each city and what each city ranked high in. I felt each high mark for the cities I've lived and been in were spot on. Pretty neat to see El Paso in there.

I was shocked to not see Phoenix ranked in the top 10 for larger cities. LOL. Just teasing.

[azliam]

I enjoyed watching the video describing each city and what each city ranked high in. I felt each high mark for the cities I've lived and been in were spot on. Pretty neat to see El Paso in there.

I was shocked to not see Phoenix ranked in the top 10 for larger cities. LOL. Just teasing.

Hmm...I'm shocked Tucson actually found itself on a "best of" list...lol. JUST TEASING. :cheers:

[Ballister]

Could we get back to development related discussion and table the cultural appropriation speak?

Pipe down. It's been a good conversation despite your big boy words.

[kmiller5]

The May meeting minutes for Rio Nuevo are online. Some cool ideas were brought up including Peach building retail/office space on the parking lot at 44 Broadway and the parking lot directly behind it between Ochoa and Jackson.

[crzyabe]

The May meeting minutes for Rio Nuevo are online. Some cool ideas were brought up including Peach building retail/office space on the parking lot at 44 Broadway and the parking lot directly behind it between Ochoa and Jackson.

In that presentation, the below concept was presented for the parking lot to the west of 44 E Broadway

http://rionuevo.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/44-BROADWAY-VIEW-FROM-NW-color.jpg

[Obadno]

In Phoenix you are always 5 mins from an Olive Garden but 100 miles from culture

I want Tucson to have a relationship to Phoenix similar to what Austin has to Dallas. I want Tucson to be that smaller, cooler, more laid back city to the South. We kill ourselves by constantly comparing ourselves to Phoenix

I see this criticism of many "not east coast" cities all the time, LA was derided this way until relatively recently, like 1980 if not later. What is this "culture" newer cities do not have? Everyone talks about it but nobody can tell me what it is.

Is it local restaurants and cool places to eat? Phoenix has tons, especially in the last decade.

Is it old building? That seems rather unfair, everything is new at some point.

Is it unique stiles of living? I would say Phoenix and Tucson and Arizona have plenty Identifiable cultural differences in that regard compared to eastern cities.

It seems to be it goes along the lines of "if it isn't like New York, Chicago or San Francisco it doesn't have culture" when I would argue many western cities culture is the fact that they ARE NOT LIKE the traditional east coast cities. The culture is boomtown, the culture is a modern melting pot, not just from other countries but other cities in the USA, the culture is wide open spaces and a relaxed lifestyle.

Not for everyone I know; but not everyone wants to live in Brooklyn if they did why would western cities be growing so fast!??

Also, when people make fun of being close to chain restaurants is the biggest strawman ever, the suburbs of ANY large metropolitan area in North America could describe being close to an olive garden and far from culture.

People love Chicago and New York, but you don't hear so much about the cultural wonder that is Carpentersville, or West Orange NJ.

All the D**k measuring between totally different types of cities, historically and geographically is pretty stupid and a massive waste of time.

Except Bakersfield, that place is hell =D

https://spoilednyc.com/wp-content/uploads///2015/12/28/ognye-3741.jpg

Look at that disgusting suburban new York Olive Garden Culture :yuck:

[crzyabe]

Look at that disgusting suburban new York Olive Garden Culture :yuck:

You used a picture of Times Square. Times Square is a non-New Yorker's idea of what New York City is.

Also, I think we can all agree that Olive Garden is horrible :)

[Obadno]

You used a picture of Times Square. Times Square is a non-New Yorker's idea of what New York City is.

Also, I think we can all agree that Olive Garden is horrible :)

I really hope you didn't miss my point that hard.

[azsunsurfer]

I really hope you didn't miss my point that hard.

Don't you go making points that Tucsonans don't understand...

[ASU Diablo]

Don't you go making points that Tucsonans don't understand...

:haha::haha:

[southtucsonboy77]

I like Olive Garden, love other authentic Italian restaurants more.

Secondly, how are there this many Phoenicians commenting on this Tucson thread...? Are there any Tucsonans that comment on the Phx metro threads? Just curious cuz I don't look at those.

But due to hurt feelings its apparent that you're missing the point and you give the perception that you're trolling this thread looking for an argument. Phx is saturated with power centers from Queen Creek to Buckeye to the point where a youth baseball club didn't know the difference between each suburb. Its the same sh**. Surprise and Gilbert...same sh**. Nightlife? People go to Scottsdale and Tempe...downtown Phx is a distant 3rd. Phx is making strides...but it is what it is.

I respect the comments...however, cities like Denver and Seattle disprove your point about the West. Even add cities such as Portland, Austin, Sacramento...metro areas in between the sizes of Tucson and Phx. Scale to scale, Phx isn't close to its peers. Tucson is.

[crzyabe]

I really hope you didn't miss my point that hard.

What was your point? That New York City has an Olive Garden?
Or that Olive Gardens are in every city?

[Obadno]

I like Olive Garden, love other authentic Italian restaurants more.


I respect the comments...however, cities like Denver and Seattle disprove your point about the West. Even add cities such as Portland, Austin, Sacramento...metro areas in between the sizes of Tucson and Phx. Scale to scale, Phx isn't close to its peers. Tucson is.

I look at the ABQ threads too!
But for your last paragraph you are incorrect. If you compare Gilbert or queen creek to the center of Denver I guess you have a point. But that isn't an apt comparison

Central Phoenix neighborhoods: Downtown, Midtown, North Central, Biltmore, Camelback East, Arcadia, Scottsdale, Downtown Tempe, etc etc compete in every way with the centers of other large cities in the west and even on a national scale.

Its pretty stupid to have someone move out to surprise and complain that it isn't like downtown Austin, is it not?

Suburban Gilbert, Subrban Marana , Suburban Riverside, Suburban Auraura, Suburban Vancouver wa, are all cookie cutter suburbs. Not surprising that they all have a Panda Express and Home Depot.

This isn't shocking.

And I would agree that Tucson does match its peers like ABQ, Tulsa and Fresno.

[ASU Diablo]

I look at the ABQ threads too!
But for your last paragraph you are incorrect. If you compare Gilbert or queen creek to the center of Denver I guess you have a point. But that isn't an apt comparison

Central Phoenix neighborhoods: Downtown, Midtown, North Central, Biltmore, Camelback East, Arcadia, Scottsdale, Downtown Tempe, etc etc compete in every way with the centers of other large cities in the west and even on a national scale.

Its pretty stupid to have someone move out to surprise and complain that it isn't like downtown Austin, is it not?

Suburban Gilbert, Subrban Marana , Suburban Riverside, Suburban Auraura, Suburban Vancouver wa, are all cookie cutter suburbs. Not surprising that they all have a Panda Express and Home Depot.

This isn't shocking.

And I would agree that Tucson does match its peers like ABQ, Tulsa and Fresno.

Fresno > Tucson

[Obadno]

What was your point? That New York City has an Olive Garden?
Or that Olive Gardens are in every city?

That you claim people in Phoenix live close to chain restaurants as if that is demonstrative of some sort of low culture or undeveloped city.

Yet Central midtown has an olive Garden yet Downtown Phoenix does not.

Its a strawman, all cities have chains, and the suburbs of all cities are....like suburbs.

[azsunsurfer]

Downtown Gilbert now has more foot traffic on any given weeknight than Congress does in a year, believe me.

[Ted Lyons]

What metrics are we using to compare downtown Phoenix neighborhoods to Portland, Denver, Seattle, and Austin neighborhoods? The fact that they have (some) level of density and accessibility to goods and services? Going back to the original catalyst of this conversation, I don't think that's enough to make Phoenix a cultural destination.

[kmiller5]

The insecurity from the Phoenix dorks is staggering. Why do you care what other people think of Phoenix? If you like it, congrats! You probably have terrible taste and have never left. But that's fine! You can have pride in your city AND accept that the best thing to ever come out of Phoenix is the freeway.

I think the 122 degree days are getting to your heads.

[kmiller5]

Downtown Gilbert now has more foot traffic on any given weeknight than Congress does in a year, believe me.

LOL. Donald Trump is here, guys!

[Obadno]

What metrics are we using to compare downtown Phoenix neighborhoods to Portland, Denver, Seattle, and Austin neighborhoods? The fact that they have (some) level of density and accessibility to goods and services? Going back to the original catalyst of this conversation, I don't think that's enough to make Phoenix a cultural destination.

The point of my comment form earlier was addressing exactly what the metrics are as well because I think its a bunch of nonsense.

Since then its just been banter because the Tlocals are being mean :tup:

[kmiller5]

All teasing aside, I actually prefer downtown PHX to any part of Gilbert, Mesa, Tempe, or Scottsdale. It might not be as "nice" as the other parts of the valley but it is more authentic.

[azsunsurfer]

This has actually been fun, we should do this more often. Next time we'll host!

[andrewsaturn]

Downtown Gilbert now has more foot traffic on any given weeknight than Congress does in a year, believe me.

Downtown Gilbert must be the most popping place in all of Phx

[southtucsonboy77]

I look at the ABQ threads too!
But for your last paragraph you are incorrect. If you compare Gilbert or queen creek to the center of Denver I guess you have a point. But that isn't an apt comparison

The Albuquerque thread is the only other thread I look at and comment on. Used to live there. In the late 90s/early 2000s, downtown Albq was a whole lot more advanced than downtown Tucson. No shame in saying that. 2017, my opinion is that downtown Tucson has surpassed Albq. Downtown Albq kinda stalled there for a bit, but is now doing some great things. Just an opinion.

As for the other comment, the point is: Phx metro is massively expansive...is continuing to be massive and sprawled...that ultimately its developed that reputation...here in Tucson and throughout the U.S. Its not that metro Tucson has a Marana or Arizona Pavilions power center...the problem with Phx is that it has 20 Maranas and 50 Arizona Pavilions. That's all you see from Buckeye to Queen Creek. That's the point we are making. And, on the subject, I feel that metro Tucson is behind in power centers and the market is playing catch-up.

Additionally, downtown Phx and Phx itself hasn't reached that comparable urban and cultural mark that its peers have reached...peers meaning 20 largest metro areas. Tucson is in the 50 largest range...that's the benchmark I look at as a citizen and as a planner. Just an opinion...and the AZ Central article I attached shared the same idea.

Many Tucsonans, born and raised, love metro Phx. Move there for the jobs, entertainment, the aesthetically pleasing roadway and neighborhood landscaping, the freeways...for whatever reason. There's probably a thread/blog just for former Tucsonans-who re-located to Phx-who hate Tucson. Despite some of Tucson's ills...and we argue amongst ourselves sometimes on this thread of what they are and the degree...Tucson has some awesome things going for itself and on the uptick. We're now landing on Top-whatever lists for positive attributes...although we'll still find ourselves on some bad ones. But for the most part, we know who we are...that's why we get excited for 7-story residential bldgs, some...not all (Lol). It seems like some Phoenicians are in denial of what the Valley really is. Developers and planners know...that's why they are working tirelessly to get Phx where it needs to be, but its not there yet.

[southtucsonboy77]

Back to 44 E. Broadway, that building by far is one of the ugliest structures in downtown Tucson. The adjacent surface parking lot magnifies its existence since there's nothing to hide that western wall. If a structure can be developed to hide 44's somewhat stand-alone presence and morph into a continuous multi-story structure façade and streetscape (with the corner Westerner/West Point re-development), it will enhance that block from Stone to Scott.

Thanks for sharing that rendering.

[Obadno]

is that it has 20 Maranas and 50 Arizona Pavilions



See this is the gist, and FYI, im not debating you or anything, but criticisms of Phoenixs suburbanism (something many cities get accosted for like LA, Dallas, Atlanta etc.) Is not specially unique for any mid-large metro anywhere in north America. NYC metro has the equivalent of 50 Maranas, LA has the equivalent of 50 Marana's so does Chicago, the Bay area, Seattle, Houston, Miami etc. etc.

They are all surrounded by miles of bland cookie cutter sprawl. But people don't Decry Manhattan because of its Long Island suburbs, People don't say Chicago sucks because it has outlet malls 45 miles from downtown.

That's why I say its a straw man to bitch about "oh its so suburban" so is every city in America besides a handful of city centers and in most cases that's only a few blocks at most.

If Tucson was the center of a 5 million person metro instead of a 1 million person metro it would have just as many "power centers" as you call them.

Central Phoenix (not just downtown but the Central neighborhoods Between Downtown and Sunny slope) are just as dense as the average central neighborhoods of ANY city besides the largest ones like NYC or Chicago.

anyway Im done defending the home team back to Tucson development news you guys have had a lot of good growth downtown as well which Is why im here in the first place!

:cheers:

[crzyabe]

That you claim people in Phoenix live close to chain restaurants as if that is demonstrative of some sort of low culture or undeveloped city.

Yet Central midtown has an olive Garden yet Downtown Phoenix does not.

Its a strawman, all cities have chains, and the suburbs of all cities are....like suburbs.

The quote about Phoenix's lack of culture and love of Olive Garden is not my quote, but I do not recall it's origin.

Your point about other large metro areas having similar suburbs is accurate, however those cites do not have the same endless sprawl reputation for which Phoenix is constantly berated. Whether is fair or unfair criticism is matter of opinion.

[azsunsurfer]

I think everyone just needs to stay in their lane!

[hthomas]

I wish it would blow up and take out Phoenix so we could stop having these pointless pissing contests. Nobody cares. Why don't you just DM each other.

[azliam]

The quote about Phoenix's lack of culture and love of Olive Garden is not my quote, but I do not recall it's origin.

Your point about other large metro areas having similar suburbs is accurate, however those cites do not have the same endless sprawl reputation for which Phoenix is constantly berated. Whether is fair or unfair criticism is matter of opinion.

It's all a matter of opinion as to what defines sprawl. When it comes to urban area sprawl, Phoenix is most certainly not the worst offender and many urban areas of cities including Dallas, Houston, Boston, Philly, Atlanta, Detroit, Minneapolis, Tampa, Baltimore, St. Louis, Cleveland, San Antonio, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Kansas City, Orlando, Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Columbus, and Austin, and yes, Tucson all are worse offenders.

[kaneui]

As Photobucket has discontinued their image linking and third-party hosting for free, I will be switching over to Flickr or a similar host ASAP, so have a little patience until I can get the images restored to the Tucson and Flagstaff development lists.

[combusean]

City vs city discussions are forbidden on SSP for precisely the last couple pages.

This is called the Tucson Development Thread for a reason, so please keep it that way.

[ASU Diablo]

http://247wallst.com/special-report/2017/06/16/50-worst-cities-to-live-in/6/

[southtucsonboy77]

http://247wallst.com/special-report/2017/06/16/50-worst-cities-to-live-in/6/

What gets missed in these headlines is that there's the "city"...and then there's the "metro/region". The City of Tucson definitely has several issues, but what makes the region a more livable place are the comprehensive towns of Marana, Oro Valley, Sahuarita...and unincorporated areas of Vail, Foothills, Casas Adobes, Tortolita, Tucson Mountains, and Green Valley.

[southtucsonboy77]

What's going up? Homeless, senior and student housing on the rise (http://tucson.com/business/tucson/what-s-going-up-homeless-senior-and-student-housing-on/article_cb07b691-a8f6-521e-af57-b003797d85bd.html)

Nice little summary from a few days ago. Tyndall student housing got its permit.

[Eapiwo]

In that presentation, the below concept was presented for the parking lot to the west of 44 E Broadway

http://rionuevo.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/44-BROADWAY-VIEW-FROM-NW-color.jpg

Correct me if I'm wrong but is this not the ugliest rendering to surface in Tucson? It looks like the work of designing the building was given to two architects -- one who designed the top floors and the other the bottom and neither individual was in contact with the other. This building will only accent the hideousness that is its neighbors rather than disguising them. Why on Earth would they split the building's design in half like that? Mixing architectural styles in such a concrete (literally concrete) way is going to make a franken-building monster. We'd be lucky for godzilla to roll around and erase this atrocity into a pile of rubble.
And don't get me wrong, there are some good elements to the design like the vines in the bottom half and the glass on the top but a DJ shouldn't mix an amazing Johnny Cash song with a Queen song and expect something fantastic, architecture is the same way. It's an art and such combinations need to be approached by those who are capable of successfully completing it. Another thing I want to point out is height. Compared to what kinds of buildings we've been seeing go up downtown, this one is much taller (FINALLY)! It looks to be around the height of the UNS building which is very prominent from all angles. I suspect that with the other prime real estate being developed downtown that the remaining properties will be pushing upwards just a little bit more. That is assuming that the arena site will go forwards as planned and that in the next 3-4 years we'll get another caterpillar/hexagon sized workforce moving in downtown.

[Ted Lyons]

I'm not even sure what's really going on with the front. The west side is likely devoid of detail because it would abut The Westerner.

[crzyabe]

Correct me if I'm wrong but is this not the ugliest rendering to surface in Tucson?

There is no way this design will be built. I think this is simply a concept image to show the potential for that space. They said they are looking to turn that lot into a "Corporate HQ Opportunity". They probably wanted to show something with more interest than a simple glass, 4 story building. Although this rendering misses the mark in my opinion.

I will be wrong and this thing will break ground by Fall :)

[Ted Lyons]

Fencing is up at 950 N Tyndall.

[ProfessorMole]

Fencing is up at 950 N Tyndall.

Has anyone heard any more about Mama's going in the bottom of one of the towers? Heard murmurs last week it was almost a done deal, but nothing concrete.

[Ted Lyons]

Has anyone heard any more about Mama's going in the bottom of one of the towers? Heard murmurs last week it was almost a done deal, but nothing concrete.

Their sign is already up at Hub 1.

[Tloc]

I'm hearing of a basement bar in the AZ Hotel Apartments and a beer garden in its back parking lot.

[southtucsonboy77]

Mini Entertainment Mecca taking shape at Congress & Scott in Downtown Tucson (https://realestatedaily-news.com/mini-entertainment-mecca-taking-shape-congress-scott-downtown-tucson/)

"A new Vintage Arcade will be coming this fall to 63 East Congress Street, at the northwest corner of Congress and Scott Avenue, in Downtown Tucson."

[Ted Lyons]

Was just going to post that. I've heard good things about Cobra Arcade Bar, so this is really promising.

[southtucsonboy77]

For informational purposes since its a SkyscraperPage, the tallest building in L.A. and west of the Mississippi had its grand opening. US Bank Tower is now #2. Very interesting thoughts and ideas on this skyscraper and skyscrapers in general in this article and related articles.

A new skyscraper for Los Angeles: Wilshire Grand makes its debut (http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-wilshire-grand-updates-20170627-htmlstory.html)

[southtucsonboy77]

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4281/35593439715_b6803390b6_m.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/WegFz6)

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4213/35593440305_8b22104f05_m.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/WegFKg)

[combusean]

The next person who posts about Phoenix in here or in any way attempts to reignite the last two pages of crap will be banned for however I long feel like.

Drop it already.

[southtucsonboy77]

Here are some more updates (June 28):

City Park
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4215/34756801964_f8fbbb1874_n.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/UXkGjh)

AC Marriot (south elevation)
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4271/35429686342_43061165bf_n.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/VYNpp5)

Westerner/West Point
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4189/35597960595_edf7ef58f8_n.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/WeERti)

The Marist on Cathedral Square
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4178/35559220046_c97b641670_n.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/WbfifN)

[kmiller5]

Now that the Diocese building has been demo'd we finally have an unobstructed view of the ugliest parking structure on Earth! Between La Placita, that parking structure, and Hotel Arizona I swear HSL is messing with us.

Also, some info about Hub and Playground renovations:

https://tucsonfoodie.com/2017/06/27/hub-restaurant-playground-renovations/

[crzyabe]

Now that the Diocese building has been demo'd we finally have an unobstructed view of the ugliest parking structure on Earth! Between La Placita, that parking structure, and Hotel Arizona I swear HSL is messing with us.

I was thinking about that parking structure the other day. I have not heard anything about its future. It seems like a great opportunity/location for the right development. There are no planned changes as part of the La Placita development correct?

[azliam]

Now that the Diocese building has been demo'd we finally have an unobstructed view of the ugliest parking structure on Earth! Between La Placita, that parking structure, and Hotel Arizona I swear HSL is messing with us.

Also, some info about Hub and Playground renovations:

https://tucsonfoodie.com/2017/06/27/hub-restaurant-playground-renovations/

Is anything ever going to be done with that Hotel Arizona? It seems like there has been talk for years, but nothing ever materialized.

[southtucsonboy77]

Maybe the proposed hotel on Church/Cushing and in-progress work from the Catholic Church will inspire HSL to 1) get going on La Placita 2) improve their ghastly design and concept 3) incorporate the garage, and 4) do something with the dormant Hotel Arizona structure that is wasting a Streetcar stop.

[crzyabe]

Maybe the proposed hotel on Church/Cushing and in-progress work from the Catholic Church will inspire HSL to 1) get going on La Placita 2) improve their ghastly design and concept 3) incorporate the garage, and 4) do something with the dormant Hotel Arizona structure that is wasting a Streetcar stop.

If I remember correctly, the tucson archbishop had said in an interview that he acknowledged that the church was contributing to the blight downtown and wanted to do something about it. That spurred all the recent construction and renovations on their properties.

HSL - your turn

[kaneui]

Ahead of any actual renderings, we have some details on the Caterpillar HQ building from development package documents filed with the city:

1. The 152k s.f., mostly rectangular building will be three stories tall.

2. There will be 522 parking spaces, divided between a surface parking lot and a two-level parking structure behind the main building (on the south side).

3. Building and parking access will be from Avenida del Convento, which will be extended south of Cushing St.

http://tucson.siretechnologies.com/SIREPub/cache/2/1857900C2C32C3925D4533FEC3333333737337545425545447/843417406292017123356738.pdf


https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4272/35620345375_5636317d52_b.jpg
(courtesy: SmithGroupJJR + WSM)

[kaneui]

Maybe the proposed hotel on Church/Cushing and in-progress work from the Catholic Church will inspire HSL to 1) get going on La Placita 2) improve their ghastly design and concept 3) incorporate the garage, and 4) do something with the dormant Hotel Arizona structure that is wasting a Streetcar stop.

In the Rio Nuevo board meeting minutes, it was suggested that HSL be encouraged to improve the parking structure and perhaps add some ground-floor retail along the Ochoa St. side, now that Rio Nuevo has agreed to fund $1M of streetscape improvements there.

[rpf]

Ahead of any actual renderings, we have some details on the Caterpillar HQ building from development package documents filed with the city:

1. The 152k s.f., mostly rectangular building will be three stories tall.

2. There will be 522 parking spaces, divided between a surface parking lot and a two-level parking structure behind the main building (on the south side).

3. Building and parking access will be from Avenida del Convento, which will be extended south of Cushing St.


Well this is worse than I could have imagined:
1. Suburban-style office building in the middle of downtown
2. Big surface parking lot (!)
3. Right up against the river, wasting the frontage that could be revitalized and turned into an attraction if/when the project to restore flow in the Santa Cruz happens
4. Oh, and it's where the new Arizona State Museum, Origins Museum, Arizona Historical Society, Science Center, and Cultural Plaza were supposed to be. Yeah, I'm still bitter about that.

[kmiller5]

Ahead of any actual renderings, we have some details on the Caterpillar HQ building from development package documents filed with the city:

1. The 152k s.f., mostly rectangular building will be three stories tall.

2. There will be 522 parking spaces, divided between a surface parking lot and a two-level parking structure behind the main building (on the south side).

3. Building and parking access will be from Avenida del Convento, which will be extended south of Cushing St.

http://tucson.siretechnologies.com/SIREPub/cache/2/1857900C2C32C3925D4533FEC3333333737337545425545447/843417406292017123356738.pdf


https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4272/35620345375_5636317d52_b.jpg
(courtesy: SmithGroupJJR + WSM)

I know they want to get the west side moving but man, this project would have been so much cooler as an 8-10 story building on the lot across from TEP and behind the Chicago Store.

[Azstar]

I know they want to get the west side moving but man, this project would have been so much cooler as an 8-10 story building on the lot across from TEP and behind the Chicago Store.

I agree completely. The county owns that lot and should have offered to sell it to Rio Nuevo since the surface parking lot that's there now only generates about $800 a year in tax revenue. Rio Nuevo took a vacant lot owned by the city which would never be developed due to the city's lack of funds and terrible management and, basically, did the city a huge favor. My fear is that this location will do very little to benefit downtown and the residential markets nearby. It will be too easy for Caterpillar employees to drive from their homes in Marana, get off the freeway, park, get back on the freeway and go home. The location will have minimal impact on the downtown restaurants, theatres, bars. I'm guessing only a very few employees will make the effort to get on the streetcar after work to patronize the central core establishments.

[Ted Lyons]

I agree completely. The county owns that lot and should have offered to sell it to Rio Nuevo since the surface parking lot that's there now only generates about $800 a year in tax revenue. Rio Nuevo took a vacant lot owned by the city which would never be developed due to the city's lack of funds and terrible management and, basically, did the city a huge favor. My fear is that this location will do very little to benefit downtown and the residential markets nearby. It will be too easy for Caterpillar employees to drive from their homes in Marana, get off the freeway, park, get back on the freeway and go home. The location will have minimal impact on the downtown restaurants, theatres, bars. I'm guessing only a very few employees will make the effort to get on the streetcar after work to patronize the central core establishments.

I agree to an extent about this location affecting their patronage of downtown restaurants, but the same people who would choose to live in Marana while working here would still live in Marana if they had to drive to Broadway and Sixth for work. Besides, Rio Nuevo is in the process of developing the lot at Broadway and Sixth anyway.

[southtucsonboy77]

I agree to an extent about this location affecting their patronage of downtown restaurants, but the same people who would choose to live in Marana while working here would still live in Marana if they had to drive to Broadway and Sixth for work. Besides, Rio Nuevo is in the process of developing the lot at Broadway and Sixth anyway.

Mr. Lyons is right. Just to bring a perspective from someone who lives in Marana and works in dwntn...I eat out for lunch waaaay too much than I should, in particular Streets Tacos, Subway, Fired, and when I feel like ball'n, Diablo's $13 burgers. I take the Express bus...and I occasionally take a later bus to hit up a happy hour. And Rae's Market is a daily trip. So I put $$$ into dwntwn 5 days a week.

It definitely would be trickier for me to ride transit to get to the Caterpillar HQ...I would have to transfer onto the streetcar or walk/bike. Some HQs like to have their elbow room...yet be a close shot to dwntwn. So I get the location. Better there than on River or Williams Centre. I personally don't see anything wrong with the layout so far, I just hope the engineers/architects make this an aesthetically pleasing building. Lastly, it is VITAL that the streetcar is on time because it has ended my ventures to 4th and University during the lunch hour.

[Eapiwo]

Caterpillar is building exactly what Tucson can handle. It's on thr fringe of downtown so they don't owe us a high rise. While it's no Marina Heights complex like in Tempe, it's a start for our struggling downtown. The design is smart and more pedestrian friendly than the towers along Tempe lake. The fact that Caterpillar's parking garage and office building have been pushed to Cushing and Convento allows for street level retail in both buildings. The parking lot is tucked away and hidden. I am also a fan of the open space and plaza on the northwest. 600 employees will be in this rising neighborhood almost every day, my concern isn't the office building but rather it's the failure of large scale housing projects to break ground. While I'm sure most enployees will opt for the suburbs, I imagine that if any want to live downtown, they'll be facing too few viable options. If Rendezvous and La Placita don't break ground soon, the caterpillar employees will have to move in to other places around the city. Even the arena site and the ronstadt proposals have me worried that nothing will come to fruition.

At this point HSL is scaring me the most. They were supposed to demolish La Placita in April, it's almost july and all we've got is a vacated property. We don't need another one to be holding back progress. That's all HSL has done for downtown, hold it back. They need to make like a tree and leaf downtown - forever.

[somethingfast]

Caterpillar is the biggest news to hit Tucson, downtown or otherwise, in at least 20 years. Seriously, don't f it up, Tucson. Fortune 20 company putting a regional HQ there. that's huge.

[kmiller5]

Just checked the Tucson Property Research Online tool and it looks like Rondezvous submitted plans on 6/27.

[cdsuofa]

HSL will leave a vacant La Placita or an empty lot until he gets what he wants. Just as Humberto claimed there was "no market in Downtown Tucson for hotels" less than a year ago, the former Hotel Arizona building will continue to sit there as well. As we all know, there are at least 3 realistic hotels in planning and one under construction in Downtown so they must know something he doesn't lol. It has all seemed suspect from day 1. That apartment complex design seems like the last thing you would put in that location to maximize your profits, the renderings have been cheap and vague(not ideal for someone who is looking to draw excitement from potential renters). Given his past, I think that an entire corner of Downtown's most crucial area will remain abandoned for years until Humberto gets the money he thinks he deserves. Just my opinion. Think he sees these two properties as part of an investment portfolio that the longer he sits on the more he will make. Selling the Hotel, La Placita and garage as a whole, once Downtown Tucson has developed around it, will make him millions. Unfortunately we will pay for that, having to see an entire corner of our Downtown event district sit abandoned. Hope I am proven wrong. I also think he's a POS that has taken advantage of the city that made him nearly a billionaire. Also, just my opinion :P haha

[InTheBurbs]

Tucson from a different perspective...

https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19466527_1081716251928505_4721478350620869629_o.jpg?oh=86116480963457c49842193fa323a2e7&oe=59D46AC5

Photo: Kira Miner/Tucson News Now (via Facebook)

[andrewsaturn]

Graze Burgers will open 2nd location on Broadway/Craycroft. if you're new to Tucson, check out this place!
https://tucsonfoodie.com/2017/07/04/graze-premium-burgers-second-location/

http://tucsonfoodie-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/TF-graze-east-1.jpg

[Ted Lyons]

Graze Burgers will open 2nd location on Broadway/Craycroft. if you're new to Tucson, check out this place!
https://tucsonfoodie.com/2017/07/04/graze-premium-burgers-second-location/

http://tucsonfoodie-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/TF-graze-east-1.jpg

I like Graze and this is a great building, but I'm pretty sure Tucson's first Habit Burger is going in pretty much right next door to this.

[kmiller5]

http://tucson.com/business/work-on-downtown-area-housing-gets-underway-in-tucson/article_16cf826b-8878-5829-acbd-2b040ed42355.html

West End Station

[aznate27]

http://tucson.com/business/work-on-downtown-area-housing-gets-underway-in-tucson/article_16cf826b-8878-5829-acbd-2b040ed42355.html

West End Station

Finally! :tup:

[OldPueblo$]

Anyone notice a pattern here on the west side? Aside from the single family homes every commercial deal has involved government funding. Senior Housing (HUD), Mercado (tax credits), and now this one (low income housing tax credits).

[Ted Lyons]

Anyone notice a pattern here on the west side? Aside from the single family homes every commercial deal has involved government funding. Senior Housing (HUD), Mercado (tax credits), and now this one (low income housing tax credits).

I don't see how this differs from any other part of downtown.

[OldPueblo$]

Umm most projects downtown are done with traditional equity and lending sources. A LIHTC deal, a HUD deal, a new markets tax credit deal is not the same as a project receiving tax incentives with a GPLET.

[Ted Lyons]

Umm most projects downtown are done with traditional equity and lending sources. A LIHTC deal, a HUD deal, a new markets tax credit deal is not the same as a project receiving tax incentives with a GPLET.

The Mercado Annex is being financed by traditional lenders and Rio Nuevo, just like most of the other Rio Nuevo-backed projects downtown. The tax credits awarded to West End Station were also awarded to the Marist, Downtown Motor Apartments, Rally Point Apartments, West Point Apartments, and 7th Avenue Commons. By my count, that's a majority of all housing construction on the east side of 10 downtown.

I'm still not sure what the point here is anyway. Everyone knows the City and Rio Nuevo are trying to push development west of the highway.

[cdsuofa]

I'm still not sure what the point here is anyway. Everyone knows the City and Rio Nuevo are trying to push development west of the highway.

I think he is pointing out that many of the developments are not market rate apartments. That many of them are low income/senior/veteran... is that what you are pointing out?
I personally have no issue with this. The ridiculously expensive, high income condos or apartments will come eventually. If the point is that the west of I-10 area is getting funding any differently than the east of I-10 portion of Downtown then I dunno. Ted is exactly right that this doesn't differ from the majority of developments throughout downtown, including all the ones he listed.

[kmiller5]

Looks like Rio Nuevo will be talking about getting Hotel Arizona to re-open at their next meeting. What's the over/under on amount of public money Lopez wants?

[Ted Lyons]

Looks like Rio Nuevo will be talking about getting Hotel Arizona to re-open at their next meeting. What's the over/under on amount of public money Lopez wants?

Having stayed there a couple years before it closed, I gotta figure they're looking at $50+ million to renovate it. At that figure, I'm sure they'd ask for $48 or $49 million in RN investment and other subsidies.

[cdsuofa]

Looks like Rio Nuevo will be talking about getting Hotel Arizona to re-open at their next meeting. What's the over/under on amount of public money Lopez wants?
Think Humberto will want every Tucsonan's first born ahaha. Seriously though, Ted is probably about right. Man, if only he was willing to create a single development combining the Hotel and in place of La Placita doing something like a small indoor shopping center w/ restaurants and maybe apartments above that. Have the Hotel and the shopping center connected and flow into the convention center and the other TCC venues. Anyways, thank god it's back on the table again because give that structure a few more years of neglect, it wont even be salvageable.

[andrewsaturn]

http://www.buckmastershow.com/2017/07/21/buckmaster-show-7212017-the-transformation-of-downtown-tucson/
.

Here is a recent interview about downtown with Fletcher McCusker.

btw I had to click on download to listen to it.

Some interesting things to note but nothing new or shocking.

-It will take four months to clean old landfill out for future site of Caterpiller.

-Rio Nuevo modeled their business model after a trip to San Diego a few years ago in which downtown development is being done through partnerships.

-Rio nuevo is putting one million dollars a month towards paying off old rio nuevo borrowed bonds.

-Fletcher says we will most likely not see a new arena instead they are focusing on renovations for TCC citing that we will always be mid tier city for concerts and entertainment.

-Hotel Arizona is on the agenda for next meeting as mentioned before.

-Rio Nuevo is acquiring around 50 properties on Broadway to repurpose them instead of demolishing them for widening.

-There is not much interest in retail downtown. (which I think could change when we see more people relocate there).

[kmiller5]

http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/35960179/new-effort-to-open-hotel-arizona-downtown

Bud Foster mentions the Convention Center hotel has hit a "speed bump". Any ideas what he is referring to? Also sounds like it has gone from 120 rooms down to 80.

[southtucsonboy77]

Albq Sol FC Stadium Feasibility Study (http://krqe.com/2017/07/26/study-pinpoints-possible-locations-price-tag-on-stadium-for-albuquerque-sol-fc/)

I really hope the City/County, especially the County, are seeing this. Phoenix is planning on building a MLS stadium, now Albq is strongly pushing for a USL (2nd tier to MLS) stadium. FC Tucson and the community really need to get something done with their stadium/soccer field plans because other jurisdictions in AZ will be looking to take our MLS training away...and teams can/will be sold on better accommodations and facilities. A stadium and additional fields will 1) assist FC Tucson in being promoted to the USL and 2) secure our stronghold of MLS teams training here, and 3) bring youth soccer tournaments to S. AZ. Money, jobs, pride, tourism. Hockey is not S. AZ. Soccer is S. AZ. Invest in the right sport. UofA does not have a men's soccer team.

Last point, our potential stadium does not need to be located with the practice fields. Albq is smart for looking to place their stadium close to downtown. (Learn from the past!)

[Ted Lyons]

Hub 3 renderings:

http://i.imgur.com/ipV8LWO.png?1

http://i.imgur.com/SVKUdvC.png

http://i.imgur.com/7SaNSBO.png

http://i.imgur.com/vkbHJ1V.png

http://i.imgur.com/epiDLTj.png

Lots of other renderings on PRO.

[crzyabe]

Albq Sol FC Stadium Feasibility Study (http://krqe.com/2017/07/26/study-pinpoints-possible-locations-price-tag-on-stadium-for-albuquerque-sol-fc/)

I really hope the City/County, especially the County, are seeing this. Phoenix is planning on building a MLS stadium, now Albq is strongly pushing for a USL (2nd tier to MLS) stadium. FC Tucson and the community really need to get something done with their stadium/soccer field plans because other jurisdictions in AZ will be looking to take our MLS training away...and teams can/will be sold on better accommodations and facilities. A stadium and additional fields will 1) assist FC Tucson in being promoted to the USL and 2) secure our stronghold of MLS teams training here, and 3) bring youth soccer tournaments to S. AZ. Money, jobs, pride, tourism. Hockey is not S. AZ. Soccer is S. AZ. Invest in the right sport. UofA does not have a men's soccer team.

Last point, our potential stadium does not need to be located with the practice fields. Albq is smart for looking to place their stadium close to downtown. (Learn from the past!)

Obviously I agree, look at my picture :)

Las Vegas is in the process of getting a USL team as well and has MLS aspirations. If we don't do something to improve our facilities soon Phoenix will probably take the MLS Spring Training. That is until they move up to MLS themselves.

[southtucsonboy77]

Vector Launch Facility RFP Hits the Street (http://azbex.com/vector-launch-facility-rfp-hits-the-street/)

Pretty interesting approach...glad to see Vector moving forward.

[Ted Lyons]

In extremely surprising news, Projects International submitted a Rezoning Pre-Submittal Conference Request this week for their project at Speedway and Campbell. So, it's not dead after all.

[Ted Lyons]

Also, drove by Culinary Dropout today and the carwash on the northeast corner of Grant and Tucson is almost completely demolished. Looked up that lot on PRO and it's slated to be approximately 7,500 square feet of retail mixed between food service and a gym.

[Azstar]

Does anyone have more information on the possible CVS Drug Store in the Chicago Building? An announcement was made 2 months ago that a letter of intent had been signed, but there's no activity at the building and no announcement that it will be opening.