Tucson Development Thread

[Patrick S]

There's a SPECIAL MEETING for Rio Nuevo taking place tomorrow on Thursday, Sept 9th @ 9am if anyone is available to watch it. Looks like some important topics.

1) Further talk about more entertainment productions coming to Tucson and Rio wants them to set up their facilities in downtown. Since HBO is filming here Oct/Nov for their pilot. Appears there are two more. Probably some kind of show with the Food Network and what sounds like some other production company setting up shop downtown.

2) Some "well-known" employer wants to move their operations into One South Church so they're talking about parking spaces for them.

And then in private executive session they're talking about the ongoing lawsuit with Nor-Gen and the arena site. So doubtful they'll talk about that in open public forum.
Looks like RN voted too offer $100k over 5 years to provide 30 parking spaces for the South Church project.

Rio Nuevo Holds Special Meeting for Time Sensitive Downtown Projects (https://realestatedaily-news.com/rio-nuevo-holds-special-meeting-for-time-sensitive-downtown-projects/)

[Patrick S]

New manufacturing plant to be built by airport will employ 100 people with $225 Million impact over next decade.

Imperial Brown® to Open Manufacturing Plant in Tucson, Arizona (https://realestatedaily-news.com/imperial-brown-to-open-manufacturing-plant-in-tucson-arizona/)

[andrewsaturn]

I was wondering if Rio Nuevo eluded to anything about the Nor-Gen "Arena" property and whats going on? Their deadline was a year ago. They've been in court now for over a year. They had those lame amphitheater renderings done over a year ago. I really wish they'd divulge some information.

Ya know, I was thinking...with the boom in the entertainment industry and Rio Nuevo trying to lure more productions here...and Tucson's complete lack of any sound stage facility....I think Rio should buy/acquire that property back and build a sound stage facility there with maybe 2-3 sound stages and also incorporate a sort of "citywalk" area for the public. A place with restaurants, cinemas, museums, hotel, etc. The TCC across the street could use the empty sound stages (if not being used) for overflow. One could be used for the Gem & Mineral Show instead of setting up that lousy tent every year. They could use one as a music venue or maybe even one could be used for sporting events. I think that idea could fill a lot of needs of the city.

I made this very rough comp of what I kind of had envisioned for it.

https://i.imgur.com/CIXleGz.jpg

I like that concept, it could prove very fruitful and we should really take advantage of being the hub of the film industry in Arizona. We already have an annual film festival and history.

[crzyabe]

I was wondering if Rio Nuevo eluded to anything about the Nor-Gen "Arena" property and whats going on? Their deadline was a year ago. They've been in court now for over a year. They had those lame amphitheater renderings done over a year ago. I really wish they'd divulge some information.

Ya know, I was thinking...with the boom in the entertainment industry and Rio Nuevo trying to lure more productions here...and Tucson's complete lack of any sound stage facility....I think Rio should buy/acquire that property back and build a sound stage facility there with maybe 2-3 sound stages and also incorporate a sort of "citywalk" area for the public. A place with restaurants, cinemas, museums, hotel, etc. The TCC across the street could use the empty sound stages (if not being used) for overflow. One could be used for the Gem & Mineral Show instead of setting up that lousy tent every year. They could use one as a music venue or maybe even one could be used for sporting events. I think that idea could fill a lot of needs of the city.

I made this very rough comp of what I kind of had envisioned for it.

This is the best Idea I have heard for that space. Which means there is no way it will happen :)

[Patrick S]

A lot of talk on here recently about Tucson's TV/movie production capabilities. In a similar vain, the U of A is looking to build a new home for our local PBS & NPR production company (Arizona Public Media - AZPM) at the Bridges on Kino/I-10. The Regents will vote on the proposal next month and the project will take 18 months to design and another 18 months to build. The university expects the project to cost $45 million and says most of the money has already been raised though they have not even released the proposal to the public yet. Per the article: "current plans for the building, which are still in the “preliminary conceptual phase,” include a large television production performance studio with theater-style collapsible seating, as well as a high-tech conference space that could be used by AZPM, the UA and the surrounding community."

UA looks to build $45 million facility for Arizona Public Media (https://tucson.com/news/local/ua-looks-to-build-45-million-facility-for-arizona-public-media/article_64d618da-1182-11ec-830b-3bdfb71adff6.html)

[Patrick S]

Amazon has purchased 68 acres of land in Marana at the NE Corner of Ina & Silverbell Rd. for construction of the Silverbell Gateway Distribution Center. I'm guessing this will be similar to their distribution center on Silverlake and I-10 in Tucson.

Amazon Assembles 68 Acres in Marana for new Delivery Station (https://realestatedaily-news.com/amazon-assembles-68-acres-in-marana-for-new-delivery-station/)

[andrewsaturn]

New tenant is expected to take over Old Tucson Studios and announced.

https://www.kgun9.com/news/local-news/whos-taking-over-old-tucson-pima-county-to-announce-soon

[andrewsaturn]

New interview with Bill Buckmaster and Fletcher McCusker of RN. Lots of information revealed here about current and future of downtown:

https://www.buckmastershow.com/2021/09/17/buckmaster-show-9-17-2021-whats-next-for-downtown-tucson/


Takeaways for me:

- 75 E Broadway is confirmed to be OFF the table. Lenders PULLED OUT due to unknown future use of office space due to pandemic and remote workers.

- McCusker believes more development will be more residential than office which could be bad for office space since we have limited space downtown. Says half a dozen of companies are already looking at vacant spaces to build.

- 50% of apartment renters downtown are babyboomers, where rent is averaging $2200.

- Says Marriott hotel is committed to a property downtown?...around 8:23.

[andrewsaturn]

Do you guys think that other cities are scaling back office space projects or having issues with them being built due to the pandemic /remote working? Comments from non-Tucson threaders?

[AZ71]

New interview with Bill Buckmaster and Fletcher McCusker of RN. Lots of information revealed here about current and future of downtown:

https://www.buckmastershow.com/2021/09/17/buckmaster-show-9-17-2021-whats-next-for-downtown-tucson/


Takeaways for me:

- 75 E Broadway is confirmed to be OFF the table. Lenders PULLED OUT due to unknown future use of office space due to pandemic and remote workers.

- McCusker believes more development will be more residential than office which could be bad for office space since we have limited space downtown. Says half a dozen of companies are already looking at vacant spaces to build.

- 50% of apartment renters downtown are babyboomers, where rent is averaging $2200.

- Says Marriott hotel is committed to a property downtown?...around 8:23.

Should have known about 75 E Broadway. Its incapable of Tucson to ever build anything tall in our city. I'm sure they'll put in a 7-story mixed-use apartment building like the ugly Flinn at some point. How disappointing. But then again, it was an ugly building design and anyone who couldn't add a few floors to be Tucson's tallest was just lame. I hope they can find a developer to use half of that block and go higher. And mixed use residential and hotel with retail on the floor is the future. Not office space.

[combusean]

Do you guys think that other cities are scaling back office space projects or having issues with them being built due to the pandemic /remote working? Comments from non-Tucson threaders?

Tempe isn't seeing anything cut back ... seems more popular than ever. Nothing major in Downtown Phoenix except for smaller "boutique" spaces in buildings that are having difficulty coming out of the ground like Central Station and Astra. The class A office market there is anemic to say the best.

Then there's downtown San Jose which has at least 1.6 million square feet under construction, and then 9 million more downtown in development and then another 7 million next to downtown with Google.

[AZ71]

Do you guys think that other cities are scaling back office space projects or having issues with them being built due to the pandemic /remote working? Comments from non-Tucson threaders?

No, other cities are not scaling back. They're growing. I'm sure everyone has heard Phx is now building what will be Arizona's tallest skyscraper with 47 floors at 535 feet tall. It will surpass their Chase Bldg which is 40 floors and 483 ft tall. It will be a residential & hotel tower.

Tucson really has a problem and I think its with local developers. They just can't make things happen. They dont have the funds or the know-how to pull off large scale projects. 75 E Broadway was Peach Properties and it fell through. They cant even get the old Wig-O-Rama building off the ground. Allan Norville never completed what he bid for downtown. HSL built the FLINN but I dont consider that tall or amazing in any way. Seems to me the only projects of any size that get completed are from out of town investors. Like all the student housing buildings at the UA west gate. I think Rio Nuevo needs to take a good long hard look at local developers and when and if they want to put out bids on land downtown...they need to look for investors in other cities. Its really pathetic after 4 years and every indication this was on track. Even a few months ago that all of a sudden the investor flees.

https://www.abc15.com/news/business/empire-group-sells-the-stewart-in-downtown-gears-up-to-build-arizonas-tallest-tower?fbclid=IwAR26fAFJ3rLd24ozoyPWtc2LHG90BVePVVf1e9hJjJwAXid7YNnPvORfVy4

And a new 16-story hotel in Tempe. Not a problem for them either: https://azbigmedia.com/real-estate/125-million-omni-tempe-hotel-at-asu-breaks-ground/

https://i.imgur.com/cGpMqhI.jpg

[michael85225]

Seeing Phoenix and especially Tempe experience a huge building boom, I'm surprised Tucson isn't experiencing the same thing. Up until 5 years ago, Phoenix also had trouble bringing big projects up and often had huge projects like Cityscape scaled down quite a bit. Phoenix isn't exactly immune to this because even today our Central Station towers that were supposed to go up a while back have been delayed and have gone through different designs for almost 10 years now and that is a very important project here.

[andrewsaturn]

Tempe isn't seeing anything cut back ... seems more popular than ever. Nothing major in Downtown Phoenix except for smaller "boutique" spaces in buildings that are having difficulty coming out of the ground like Central Station and Astra. The class A office market there is anemic to say the best.

Then there's downtown San Jose which has at least 1.6 million square feet under construction, and then 9 million more downtown in development and then another 7 million next to downtown with Google.

Wow that's impressive but not surprising. Those cities are on and have been on a major upswing with enough momentum to get through post pandemic uncertainty. I think for Tucson, residential high rise is our best bet for now.

[andrewsaturn]

Seeing Phoenix and especially Tempe experience a huge building boom, I'm surprised Tucson isn't experiencing the same thing. Up until 5 years ago, Phoenix also had trouble bringing big projects up and often had huge projects like Cityscape scaled down quite a bit. Phoenix isn't exactly immune to this because even today our Central Station towers that were supposed to go up a while back have been delayed and have gone through different designs for almost 10 years now and that is a very important project here.

I'm surprised as well seeing that Tucson is considered to be one of the top cities to recover faster from the pandemic. But Phoenix metro has a robust economy with lots of money so there is always optimism for new projects. Downtown tucson had ONE high rise at least 250' in the works and it failed. I'm still optimistic though, 75 E Broadway is intended to be a high rise by the developers and Rio Nuevo. How long it will take? Another few years probably.

[andrewsaturn]

[QUOTE=AZ71;9400541]No, other cities are not scaling back. They're growing. I'm sure everyone has heard Phx is now building what will be Arizona's tallest skyscraper with 47 floors at 535 feet tall. It will surpass their Chase Bldg which is 40 floors and 483 ft tall. It will be a residential & hotel tower.

Tucson really has a problem and I think its with local developers. They just can't make things happen. They dont have the funds or the know-how to pull off large scale projects. 75 E Broadway was Peach Properties and it fell through. They cant even get the old Wig-O-Rama building off the ground. Allan Norville never completed what he bid for downtown. HSL built the FLINN but I dont consider that tall or amazing in any way. Seems to me the only projects of any size that get completed are from out of town investors. Like all the student housing buildings at the UA west gate. I think Rio Nuevo needs to take a good long hard look at local developers and when and if they want to put out bids on land downtown...they need to look for investors in other cities. Its really pathetic after 4 years and every indication this was on track. Even a few months ago that all of a sudden the investor flees.

https://www.abc15.com/news/business/empire-group-sells-the-stewart-in-downtown-gears-up-to-build-arizonas-tallest-tower?fbclid=IwAR26fAFJ3rLd24ozoyPWtc2LHG90BVePVVf1e9hJjJwAXid7YNnPvORfVy4

And a new 16-story hotel in Tempe. Not a problem for them either: https://azbigmedia.com/real-estate/125-million-omni-tempe-hotel-at-asu-breaks-ground/

It seems like residential/hotel is the way to go right now. But downtown Tucson seems like it's getting over saturated with hotel rooms, maybe I'm wrong. Fletcher did say there are half a dozen interested developers wanting to build residential units but we can't get higher than 250' which is extremely frustrating. It seems like demand is there.

[AZ71]

[QUOTE=AZ71;9400541]No, other cities are not scaling back. They're growing. I'm sure everyone has heard Phx is now building what will be Arizona's tallest skyscraper with 47 floors at 535 feet tall. It will surpass their Chase Bldg which is 40 floors and 483 ft tall. It will be a residential & hotel tower.

Tucson really has a problem and I think its with local developers. They just can't make things happen. They dont have the funds or the know-how to pull off large scale projects. 75 E Broadway was Peach Properties and it fell through. They cant even get the old Wig-O-Rama building off the ground. Allan Norville never completed what he bid for downtown. HSL built the FLINN but I dont consider that tall or amazing in any way. Seems to me the only projects of any size that get completed are from out of town investors. Like all the student housing buildings at the UA west gate. I think Rio Nuevo needs to take a good long hard look at local developers and when and if they want to put out bids on land downtown...they need to look for investors in other cities. Its really pathetic after 4 years and every indication this was on track. Even a few months ago that all of a sudden the investor flees.

https://www.abc15.com/news/business/empire-group-sells-the-stewart-in-downtown-gears-up-to-build-arizonas-tallest-tower?fbclid=IwAR26fAFJ3rLd24ozoyPWtc2LHG90BVePVVf1e9hJjJwAXid7YNnPvORfVy4

And a new 16-story hotel in Tempe. Not a problem for them either: https://azbigmedia.com/real-estate/125-million-omni-tempe-hotel-at-asu-breaks-ground/

It seems like residential/hotel is the way to go right now. But downtown Tucson seems like it's getting over saturated with hotel rooms, maybe I'm wrong. Fletcher did say there are half a dozen interested developers wanting to build residential units but we can't get higher than 250' which is extremely frustrating. It seems like demand is there.

Like I said before...I think Tucson developers don't have the connections with big investors to make things happen. Or maybe it was the business plan or design proposal. I mean, we can all agree 75 E Broadway was a pretty ugly building. If it would have been more ground-breaking and cool looking...maybe more companies would have been interested. I'm guessing the numbers of businesses wanting to sign leases during the pre-build leasing were so low the east coast pulled out. Maybe if they built the tallest building in Tucson it would have gained instant cache and marketing desire, news stories. They failed to recognize the marketing aspect of it.

I agree...Residential, retail and hotel is the way to go. The city already lures companies away from downtown with all the tech and industrial parks they're building. The Bridges, UA Tech Center, Williams Centre, Kino Development region. Peach Properties should have looked at One South Church who is turning the bottom 10 floors into a hotel. So the entire proposal was really doomed from the start. I still think Rio Nuevo needs to look at other investors and companies that have a history of getting project done.

[combusean]

The question here was about office, and my impression is that downtown office space is just not very popular outside of big tech. In retrospect I'd say San Jose and Tempe are anomalies with abnormally high growth rates.

Chicago, New York, and LA have ~20% downtown vacancy rates and COVID definitely impacted that. So I wouldn't think that Tucson is very special without a huge tech market like most other cities.

[AZ71]

I still believe a lot of the issues are with design. Remember when Tucson had some vision just a few years ago in building structures? This was the proposed Sheraton hotel that Ward 6 City Councilman Steve Kozachik opposed. It was to be the hotel associated with the TCC. And this was 25+ stories. Gorgeous building. But what did we get instead? A 6 story Doubletree that looks like every other mixed use apartment building. I dont know what its gonna take to get Tucson to realize its potential.

https://i.imgur.com/HRauaGz.jpg

[Locofresh55]

I still believe a lot of the issues are with design. Remember when Tucson had some vision just a few years ago in building structures? This was the proposed Sheraton hotel that Ward 6 City Councilman Steve Kozachik opposed. It was to be the hotel associated with the TCC. And this was 25+ stories. Gorgeous building. But what did we get instead? A 6 story Doubletree that looks like every other mixed use apartment building. I dont know what its gonna take to get Tucson to realize its potential.

https://i.imgur.com/HRauaGz.jpg

This would have been such a magnificent addition to downtown! I remember thinking it had a good chance to be built until it didn't gain traction. Kozachik and pretty much the rest of the council are NIMBY pleasers, afraid of modernization when it comes to urban development. There is continued association of keeping Tucson a "small town" because we are the Old Pueblo. Such a shame that we keep this vehicle stuck in the mud, meanwhile places like Tempe and Albuquerque appear to be moving in the right direction.

[AZ71]

This would have been such a magnificent addition to downtown! I remember thinking it had a good chance to be built until it didn't gain traction. Kozachik and pretty much the rest of the council are NIMBY pleasers, afraid of modernization when it comes to urban development. There is continued association of keeping Tucson a "small town" because we are the Old Pueblo. Such a shame that we keep this vehicle stuck in the mud, meanwhile places like Tempe and Albuquerque appear to be moving in the right direction.

Thats why I was hoping Kozachik would lose his city council seat this year. But here we are still. Same people still in charge like Kozachik, Huckelberry. They never leave and we still have a city that looks like the 80s.

[Azstar]

It's not politics keeping Tucson stagnant, it's economics. There is zero demand for office space and retail downtown, and there hasn't been any demand for years. Tucson leaders and economic organizations have not done a very good job attracting new businesses, and the State is more of a hindrance than a help. Most business that resettle to Arizona from other states choose the Phoenix area.

[AZ71]

It's not politics keeping Tucson stagnant, it's economics. There is zero demand for office space and retail downtown, and there hasn't been any demand for years. Tucson leaders and economic organizations have not done a very good job attracting new businesses, and the State is more of a hindrance than a help. Most business that resettle to Arizona from other states choose the Phoenix area.

Some of it is politics. That Sheraton Hotel I referred to before was ready to break ground until Steve Kozachik voted no because he didn't want just one hotel dominationg downtown Tucson. Yea...I agree about the businesses. They city is already luring businesses to town to go to the industrial and tech parks they're building for them. No business is going to choose to relocate downtown without major incentives...like they offered to Catepillar HQ. They didn't come here on their own accord. But I do believe the residential market is really booming and they should focus on that. Residential, transit and entertainment and the gov't court system, etc.

Oh...and there is another Rio Nuevo meeting tomorrow on 9/21 @ 1pm. If anyone can listen, please let us know. Even though its not on the agenda...I'm hoping he says something in passing about the 75 E Broadway project being cancelled.

There is also a Pima County Board of Supervisors meeting tomorrow too on 9/21 at 9am. But I dont see anything major on the agenda.

[Patrick S]

110 acres of land west of I-10 and east of the Santa Cruz River between Prince Rd and Miracle Mile are in the development stage to be rezoned to accommodate a mixed-use interstate commerce campus. Would allow 10-12 story buildings for high-tech industry.
https://azbex.com/110-acre-mixed-use-employment-hub-proposed-for-tucson/

https://imgur.com/a/MwikGVI

https://imgur.com/a/MwikGVI

https://imgur.com/xCLoWnm

PS: I did the Imgur upload and copied that link into the "add picture" prompt and still no picture. This website sucks.
This is on the agenda at the next Tucson City Council meeting on 9/28/21 (https://tucsonaz.onbaseonline.com/1801AgendaOnline/Meetings/ViewMeeting?id=1571&doctype=1).

You can view the PAD development packet here: https://tucsonaz.onbaseonline.com/1801AgendaOnline/Documents/ViewDocument/EXHIBIT%20A%20TO%20ORDINANCE%2011876.pdf?meetingId=1571&documentType=Agenda&itemId=62160&publishId=80248&isSection=false

[AZ71]

This is on the agenda at the next Tucson City Council meeting on 9/28/21 (https://tucsonaz.onbaseonline.com/1801AgendaOnline/Meetings/ViewMeeting?id=1571&doctype=1).

You can view the PAD development packet here: https://tucsonaz.onbaseonline.com/1801AgendaOnline/Documents/ViewDocument/EXHIBIT%20A%20TO%20ORDINANCE%2011876.pdf?meetingId=1571&documentType=Agenda&itemId=62160&publishId=80248&isSection=false

Hope they approve it and I hope the developer actually goes through with it and builds some nice, modern and TALL structures. Tucson is one of the ugliest cities to drive through. We need to start development along the freeway to show we are a city.

[Patrick S]

Hope they approve it and I hope the developer actually goes through with it and builds some nice, modern and TALL structures. Tucson is one of the ugliest cities to drive through. We need to start development along the freeway to show we are a city.
I think 10-12 stories is the maximum height allowed so I wouldn't expect anything tall (by most city's standards) but I agree about Tucson not being the prettiest city to drive through. One of my first thoughts would be that this would make the city a little nicer along the interstate. There were no letters of support and one of protest from people in the vicinity of the area. I didn't read the protest letter but did see it was noted that the planned area was incompatible with the current uses. I was left thinking that the current uses are not very much to look at and wondered why someone wouldn't want an upgrade in the area unless it's just they don't want more traffic.

[AZ71]

I think 10-12 stories is the maximum height allowed so I wouldn't expect anything tall (by most city's standards) but I agree about Tucson not being the prettiest city to drive through. One of my first thoughts would be that this would make the city a little nicer along the interstate. There were no letters of support and one of protest from people in the vicinity of the area. I didn't read the protest letter but did see it was noted that the planned area was incompatible with the current uses. I was left thinking that the current uses are not very much to look at and wondered why someone wouldn't want an upgrade in the area unless it's just they don't want more traffic.

Typical NIMBYism. They'd rather have cement factories or landfills along the freeway than any kind of building. Just like all the people in Marana in an uproar over an Amazon distribution center in a placed zoned for such. It just really baffles me how backward everyone is. And its just not the older folks. They're teaching younger this two. The entire Flowing Wells district from Rutharuff rd to Miracle Mile should be leveled if you ask me and started new.

I've been doing a bit of emailing myself to try to get other investors interested in 75 E Broadway. calling developers of residential towers from Phx and other places. Each one says the same thing. That the prices they charge wouldnt substatiate the build. I told them that was ludacris that they clearly haven't see the FLIN is going from $1800-3k and the Rendezvous Urban Lofts are 2-4k an apt. One guy said he hasn't been here in a few years. I told him I suggest he revisit. Just NO ONE wants to invest in our town and I have no idea how you lure folks here to want to build. We're doomed to strip malls and 2-5 story HSL apt properties.

[Obadno]

Hope they approve it and I hope the developer actually goes through with it and builds some nice, modern and TALL structures. Tucson is one of the ugliest cities to drive through. We need to start development along the freeway to show we are a city.

That's a little dramatic when compared to cities of similar size I think Tucson fares quite well skyline wise.

Rochester:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Rochester_NY_Skyline.jpg

Freson:
https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/thewordfresno-org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/30035635/fresno-skyline-word-community-church.jpg

Grand Rapids:
https://cdn.grmag.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/113/2019/02/downtown-Grand-Rapids-skyline-1.jpg

Tucson:
https://thepostworkspaces.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/5d3789be23f78.image_-1024x532.jpg

https://www.visittucson.org/sites/default/files/styles/hero/public/tucson-aerial-downtown_2117a9d6-5056-a36a-0ac79b647957b325.jpg?itok=WmycCjQQ

[Patrick S]

That's a little dramatic when compared to cities of similar size I think Tucson fares quite well skyline wise.
Fresno is the only one of those cities that to me even relates to Tucson. It's a west-coast/SW/Sun-belt city with less than a thousand less people than Tucson in the city and about 35k less people in the metro area. If I remember correctly I believe I once heard that Fresno is the largest city in the country not connected to an interstate. They're relatively isolated in a large state ruled by major cities (San Diego, LA, San Jose, San Francisco, and to a lesser extent Sacramento).

If we're even trying to compare our city to Rochester, NY and Grand Rapids, MI then we're doomed. Though Rochester's metro area is actually about 25k more than ours the city itself is about 211k and has lost 1/3 of its population since 1950. Grand Rapids has less than 200k in the city though their metro is larger than any of the cities discussed. I grew up in the Midwest - an area that has seen rapid decline for major cities like Detroit, St. Louis, Cincinnati, and Pittsburgh. Grand Rapids wasn't even close to stature of any of those. And in my opinion their downtown looks much better than any pictured there (minus the mountain views of Tucson).

I'm torn between thinking Tucson needs to dream and strive to be more than Rochester and Grand Rapids and the reality that there just isn't the desire to invest in this city. I too wanted the Sherton Hotel attached to the TCC but grew to understand why the city didn't want to take on the risk. I don't think we have too many hotels downtown now as was recently voiced. The Gem Show has advocated for more for a long time, though of course, I wish we had more dynamic recent hotels built. The fact is the market won't allow for more than 6-8 stories right now. We may complain that 75 E Broadway was "only" the 2nd or 3rd tallest building but at least it was something big and bold (for Tucson at least). We're still left complaining that they were only going to build something of that size but now we have nothing because as I said, the market won't support it. We have to come to this realization.

[Obadno]

I was comparing Metro Size, city population is irrelevant see San Francisco, Boston etc.

Compared to the other metros in the USA all across the country and from all different types of time periods Tucson's skyline is right in Line.

I dont see what you are trying to say Tucson seems to me to be right in the mix for 1million person cities.

[combusean]

Phoenix was always derided as an LA suburb, but now it's basically a San Francisco suburb with all the tech backoffice that's going on there and getting more expensive. It's even starting to attract international attention with TSMC and Samsung gave it a good look too.

But sooner or later people are going to want Arizona's business climate but not Phoenix's costs or chaos. Tucson is 20 minutes longer in the air, but the flights aren't there to California's business centers. In time...

I'd give Tucson about 5 or 10 years. Meanwhile 5 story "HSL" buildings are just fine if you want density at a reasonable cost.

Finally... Rochester is a has-been city, Grand Rapids is finally getting back to its 1970 population, and Fresno is dirt poor and economically stagnant. Tucson has much more going for it than its skyline.

[Patrick S]

I was comparing Metro Size, city population is irrelevant see San Francisco, Boston etc.

Compared to the other metros in the USA all across the country and from all different types of time periods Tucson's skyline is right in Line.

I dont see what you are trying to say Tucson seems to me to be right in the mix for 1million person cities.
Completely agree that metro population (as opposed to city population) is what matters. But, not sure about the relevance of San Francisco and Boston to that point. San Francisco has about 875k and is one of the 20 largest cities in the country. The only reason the population is that low is it has less than 50 square miles of land (compared to almost 185 square miles of water). It's the 3rd highest population density in the country over 100k people (only NYC and Patterson, NJ are more densely populated). Boston has about 685k putting it right outside the top 20. Actually, a good example of this is the city right behind Boston - El Paso, which is the 22nd largest city with about 650k (about 100k more than Tucson) but a metro of about 870k (about 170k less than Tucson). On the flip side of that are some of those Midwestern cities like I mentioned earlier - St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, and Cleveland. All of those cities have dipped to less (some much less) than 400k yet have metro areas of near or over 2 million. Columbus is by far the biggest city in Ohio but is the 3rd largest metro area.

I think combusean summed up what I was trying to say better than I when he said "Finally... Rochester is a has-been city, Grand Rapids is finally getting back to its 1970 population, and Fresno is dirt poor and economically stagnant. Tucson has much more going for it than its skyline." - If these are who we are comparing our city to then we're in trouble.

One last point on this - look at Tulsa (metro about 30k less than Tucson) and Omaha (metro about 75k less than Tucson). Tulsa has 6 buildings 400 feet or taller (4 of which are over 500 feet) with the tallest being 667 feet. That's twice as tall as Tucson's tallest. Omaha's tallest is 634 feet with another near 500 feet and 10 at 250 feet or taller. Tucson has 3 buildings of 250 feet or taller.

[somethingfast]

Tulsa has 6 buildings 400 feet or taller (4 of which are over 500 feet) with the tallest being 667 feet. That's twice as tall as Tucson's tallest. Omaha's tallest is 634 feet with another near 500 feet and 10 at 250 feet or taller. Tucson has 3 buildings of 250 feet or taller.

Tulsa's relatively big/tall downtown is almost entirely due to its energy significance during the 60's to 80's. Almost nothing new has been built there in 30 years or more. I'm not knocking Tulsa as it's a nice town but it's downtown is all legacy. You could totally say Tucson's much more modest downtown is also all legacy outside the smaller residential buildings that have gone up. No new office towers in forever. I don't think that's going to change bc Tucson is a education/govt employment city and neither of those industries needs or wants anything taller than 10 stories.

[juan.x.ito]

tucson is growing at such a slow rate, that i doubt we’ll get a 200’+ tower anytime soon. (though, it is picking up in marana, valencia west of i-19, and the greater vail area, so who knows?

i definitely think we need to fix up our freeways and the area around them and make them nice. its the first thing people notice when they drive through tucson. driving through phoenix, you get a sense of organization, harmony and cleanliness, but tucson is just dirt lots on the side of the i-10 and random trash and shrubbery. i fear we’ll never be able to escape the harsh reality of our nickname, ‘the dirty it T,” so i really hope this Prince project comes to fruition.

it also doesn’t help that the people here are extremely stubborn. tucsonans are a defiant people; it astonishes me how many nimbys and older folk are set on keeping our city shitty, just because “they don’t want us to become phoenix.” that argument is so tired and just straight out incorrect.

[somethingfast]

^ this

[Obadno]

I did not include Tulsa because Tulsa is not comparable, it was simultaneously an oil, shipping, and agricultural hub from an earlier era, as a result it had a local banking culture and all of that equated to higher density buildings.

The tall buildings of Tulsa are of a different era and would never happen today. As a region Tucson >>>> Tulsa (I have been)

[Obadno]

Completely agree that metro population (as opposed to city population) is what matters. But, not sure about the relevance of San Francisco and Boston to that point.

Because they hold down Metros of many millions more than their city population therefore they have larger downtowns. Because San Francisco isnt "really" a city of 875k its the urban core of nearly 10 million.

[AZ71]

My point in all that was that Tucson is ugly to drive through. You cant tell me the city is pretty to drive through from Red Rock all the way to Vail. Empty dust lots along the side. There is no real development or infrastructure. Slowly some plazas are being built in the Ina to Cortaro area but its hardly anything nice. But its nothing to want to pull over and stop.

I'm not saying the Tucson skyline is ugly per say. But its certainly stopped growing in the 80s. You can see that by the architecture. And even that pic shows the lovely empty dirt lot downtown and that awful white Gem show tent. That just has to be developed. Hopefully Rio Nuevo will win some type of lawsuit.

I disagree about height in Tucson. I think our city is full of small-time developers that dont have the financial expertise. 75 E Broadway was this close to being built. If Covid hadn't hit it might have happened. But the focus of the tower was all wrong. We dont need Classs A office space downtown. We have too many tech and industrial parks to really lure businesses downtwon. So that was its failure in the mixed-use part of it. Retail and residential was good though. They should have looked at One South Church and its 50% capacity rate before proposiong. Thats why they're using half of it for a hotel now. 75 E Broadway should have always been a residential/hotel combo. I've heard of so many hotels looking for space. Marriott, Moxy, Sheraton.

Disagree about Sheraton hotel too from a decade ago. That was exactly what we needed. Its taken a decade for 2-3 pop up 6 story hotels since then and the Gem show threatening to leave Tucson. They still are. The fact is downtown Tucson is becoming more of an entertainment and convention space destination...and the rest is residential. The trolley line helps with that for people to live downtown and take it to work at UofA or Banner Hospital. If Rio Nuevo would put out solicitations for a combo hotel/residence building (Like the Hotel Palomar/Cityscape Apt towner in Phx) we could easily get a 20+ story tower. Especially how they're built these days. 2 levels of retail. 6 levels of parking. Then all you need is a traditional 6 stories apartment building (both Flin and Rendezvous are that size) and then a 6 story hotel (like they newly built the Doubletree, and the Home2Suites/Hampton Inn combo) = 20 stories.

[somethingfast]

Nobody is going to argue that the drive through Tucson on I-10 is eye-pleasing. It's not. The I-10 drive through Phoenix metro is much nicer urban-wise. Cleaner frontage, no weeds, few empty lots. Tucson...not so much. As for skyline, Tucson has a nice little skyline really but the damn "tile building" is one of the ugliest/fugliest buildings on the planet. Someone should demolish it or do a serious rehab of the exterior. It's absolutely hideous and it was hideous and tacky in 1968. It really tarnishes what is otherwise a nice little collection of modest buildings. Hey, I'm blue-skying it here ! :cheers:

[juan.x.ito]

i think everyone would agree that the legal services building is hideous, but i don't think anything will be done about it.

in other smaller news; it seems a Sprouts Farmer's Market and a MyPlace Hotel are in the plans for the Landing shopping center.

I always thought the southwestern area of Tucson was really underserved by healthier grocery options, so I'm excited for this. Here's the link to the map:

https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/1090-W-Irvington-Rd-Tucson-AZ/24002172/

[Pedestrian]

i think everyone would agree that the legal services building is hideous, but i don't think anything will be done about it.

in other smaller news; it seems a Sprouts Farmer's Market and a MyPlace Hotel are in the plans for the Landing shopping center.

I always thought the southwestern area of Tucson was really underserved by healthier grocery options, so I'm excited for this. Here's the link to the map:

https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/1090-W-Irvington-Rd-Tucson-AZ/24002172/

There's been a Sprouts in Sahuarita for about 2 years now. I have to drive to Tucson for Trader Joe's. People from southwestern Tucson can drive to Sahuarita for Sprouts. :cheers:

[AZ71]

Nobody is going to argue that the drive through Tucson on I-10 is eye-pleasing. It's not. The I-10 drive through Phoenix metro is much nicer urban-wise. Cleaner frontage, no weeds, few empty lots. Tucson...not so much. As for skyline, Tucson has a nice little skyline really but the damn "tile building" is one of the ugliest/fugliest buildings on the planet. Someone should demolish it or do a serious rehab of the exterior. It's absolutely hideous and it was hideous and tacky in 1968. It really tarnishes what is otherwise a nice little collection of modest buildings. Hey, I'm blue-skying it here ! :cheers:

I guess to each his own. I've come to love that mid-century blue tile skyscraper. I think its my favorite one downtown! I like the gold accents on the other 3 sides. Haha. Too funny. And no...dont tear down a skyscraper. Tucson will NEVER EVER build one again.

[somethingfast]

oh man not sure what to say lol. yep, beauty in the eye of the beholder and all that! i do agree with you that they shouldn't tear it down as the odds of another 250' tower downtown seems pretty slim !!

[ZonaRealtor2021]

So I wanted to throw my two cents into this conversation I had a great rant but unfortunately it got deleted so now I am just going to throw out a few observations and opinions that I feel matter. I just moved back from Las Vegas after living out there for 12 years I also lived in Miami South Beach and briefly in Seattle so in my opinion I feel what a real sense of growth, organization, and cohesion feels like.
I’m not trying to compare those three cities because that’s unfair to Tucson but….
I think that’s one of Tucson‘s major issues there is none!
I think there should be code for major arterials here in Tucson to have at least have cohesion in landscaping, trees lining the sidewalks, and shoot sidewalks lol.
Another priority should be making the airport area look clean, once again cohesion and make it a priority to have those dirt lots built up.
Another is upgrading to using top rated asphalt I know that we use lower grade and it shows -In Las Vegas they used top grade asphalt on there roads and they last for over 10 years at a minimum…here they get done with the project & within 2 to 3 years after that they are already doing preservation work it’s a joke!!!
We need to stop giving neighborhood association so much clout nobody is guaranteed to have a Mountain View in the middle of a city of 1 million people.
And another one and this is truly a Tucson thing is stop giving the sign committee so much control their clout is ridiculous here.
Then I think businesses will stop over looking Tucson and go into Pinal County ( I just read an article in AZBEX) where a group of site selectors in businesses were asked if they ever consider Pima County or Tucson and they said flat out no!
As a nerd for height and density I’ve come to the realization we will never get there but maybe we could get a project or two before all the available lots DT are gone..

But not if we continue going to HSL and Humberto Lopez there a joke!

Marcel Dabdoub well he got the AC Marriott done he is also over his head.

One South church owner Zack Fenton is another joke!!

And peach properties is trash too

And that’s just the beginning but one can hope right :shrug:

[ZonaRealtor2021]

I guess to each his own. I've come to love that mid-century blue tile skyscraper. I think its my favorite one downtown! I like the gold accents on the other 3 sides. Haha. Too funny. And no...dont tear down a skyscraper. Tucson will NEVER EVER build one again.
They should really try to raise the 1 million dollars needed to fix the sign on top it and have it going again?!?

[AZ71]

So I wanted to throw my two cents into this conversation I had a great rant but unfortunately it got deleted so now I am just going to throw out a few observations and opinions that I feel matter. I just moved back from Las Vegas after living out there for 12 years I also lived in Miami South Beach and briefly in Seattle so in my opinion I feel what a real sense of growth, organization, and cohesion feels like.
I’m not trying to compare those three cities because that’s unfair to Tucson but….
I think that’s one of Tucson‘s major issues there is none!
I think there should be code for major arterials here in Tucson to have at least have cohesion in landscaping, trees lining the sidewalks, and shoot sidewalks lol.
Another priority should be making the airport area look clean, once again cohesion and make it a priority to have those dirt lots built up.
Another is upgrading to using top rated asphalt I know that we use lower grade and it shows -In Las Vegas they used top grade asphalt on there roads and they last for over 10 years at a minimum…here they get done with the project & within 2 to 3 years after that they are already doing preservation work it’s a joke!!!
We need to stop giving neighborhood association so much clout nobody is guaranteed to have a Mountain View in the middle of a city of 1 million people.
And another one and this is truly a Tucson thing is stop giving the sign committee so much control their clout is ridiculous here.
Then I think businesses will stop over looking Tucson and go into Pinal County ( I just read an article in AZBEX) where a group of site selectors in businesses were asked if they ever consider Pima County or Tucson and they said flat out no!
As a nerd for height and density I’ve come to the realization we will never get there but maybe we could get a project or two before all the available lots DT are gone..

But not if we continue going to HSL and Humberto Lopez there a joke!

Marcel Dabdoub well he got the AC Marriott done he is also over his head.

One South church owner Zack Fenton is another joke!!

And peach properties is trash too

And that’s just the beginning but one can hope right :shrug:


I agree with most of what you said. Is there some kind of city ordinance that says we can only use local investors? All these local developers are too small to build anything of any size. Its pure luck the AC Marriott was built. But that was like almost 5 years ago and its what...like a 5 story building built on two levels of parking? Its no big accomplishment, Tucson.

I dont know how you make Tucson more friendly to outside developers. I've contacted about 10 developers who have experience building 16-25 story residential towers in Phx, Tempe and in the midwest. Told them they should jump on this 75 E Broadway property now. No one is interested. It takes UA MainGate 18 months max to put up a 16 story tower over there. Why? Cause they are outside companies who have money and make it happen.

You're also right about cohesion. Look at downtown itself. HSL should never have been allowed to build the FLIN there right on an entertainment corner beside TCC. Wrong project and the wrong look for how to build. And whats up with HSL still not doing anything with that old AZ Hotel downtown? Its been sitting empty for like 7 years now. HSL are fools.

[ZonaRealtor2021]

It’s definitely disappointing that Tucson can’t really capitalize on all the recent successes and spotlight shown on the city since 2015 on award, we continue to constantly get overlooked.
until we can somehow stop that I don’t see any real major companies moving in here other than what have already done so in the past couple years.

Let’s take a look at our most comparable cities in our region Albuquerque and El Paso.
El Paso just finished within this past year there new cities tallest and it was also a mix use with a new headquarters for a bank. ( the building is a Mona Lisa compared to the 75 East Broadway design)
Albuquerque’s last mayor put out a call for development for the cities new tallest with a really sleek design and unfortunately the new administration that came in didn’t want it but at least they tried not to mention the tremendous amount of apartment growth and construction is unprecedented Tucson isn’t even close.
What Albuquerque has been able to do with attracting Netflix to ABQ studios & the Orion Center is huge!!!!
I think Fletcher misses the ball sometimes he doesn’t really strive for big things while he has turned around and saved Rio Nuevo he doesn’t seem to be focus on these types of concerns on this thread to show that our downtown is really prosperous and thriving.
We should be able to build a 20 story apartment /condo building with the amount that they are charging for rent in the downtown core maybe those Boston lenders would come back and try to do a solid mix use without class a office space if we had better local developers to try to reign them back in???

[ZonaRealtor2021]

Also I forgot to throw in there how are we ever going to get a 200+ foot tower if we can’t even get Bourn companies to fully build out city park, it’s been over five years and they can’t even get the food hall off the ground they let go of the plans for the bowling alley and decided to give it all to hexagon it shows that we are not ready for anything huge here!

Small town developers = small downtown it goes hand-in-hand I wish Art Moreno the owner of the Angels would come back to Tucson and build some stuff instead of just donating to the U of A sorry football team.

[somethingfast]

you guys are calling out two very real realities that hinder Tucson's progress in development: 1) the relatively slow velocity of money compared to other cities, and 2) the gated access to city council by a very few players (major grifting there). I don't know how either is solved but I think it starts voting out the council and starting over with some youth maybe.

[andrewsaturn]

I agree with some and most sentiments about Tucson development issues. HSL and Peach Properties seem like they have no great vision or vision for even unique architectural designs that would separate Tucson from other major cities.

Agree about cohesiveness. But in terms of things to do and where things are on a large scale lol. I think it will be awhile until we get there and the streetcar certainly helps but downtown we have sporadic areas of development. We have one major street of dining that is Congress which is not even completely filled out with shops. Mercado district is nice but is far from the main tourist attraction areas of Congress/4th ave/University (which is a nice little cohesiveness). I guess what I'm trying to say is we need to connect TIA to downtown with light rail and then extend that to either Tucson Mall or Park Place mall but really that won't happen for a long time since Broadway widening is already happening as well as the repaving of Oracle rd. So maybe extend it somehow to Tucson Marketplace at Kino?

Too much insight and power is given to neighborhoods that want their cake and eat it too here. If you live 15-30 min from downtown tucson (which is most of Tucson proper), chances are that business and growth is going to happen in your neighborhood so complaints about increased traffic is ridiculous to keep growth from happening. If you want no traffic, move outside of city limits really. (Current situation right now is Amazon in Marana).

What do you guys mean Tucson is ugly to drive through? Lol. Not being sarcastic at all but if you're coming in from the south on the highway we have a great view of downtown with Catalina mountains I think is SUPER pretty. If you're coming in from the North on I10, I agree that development along that corridor could be spruced up and more high density and mid rises could be developed near downtown especially near Speedway and Congress. Obviously it won't ever be like driving into Philly or NYC but it's decent. (Talks and meetings of turning the hotel city center on Granada into an apartment complex with one building being 4 stories should help a little).

Beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder :haha:. I also like the blue tile building. Thought it was ugly at first too but now I think is unique enough to write it off as ugly.

[andrewsaturn]

you guys are calling out two very real realities that hinder Tucson's progress in development: 1) the relatively slow velocity of money compared to other cities, and 2) the gated access to city council by a very few players (major grifting there). I don't know how either is solved but I think it starts voting out the council and starting over with some youth maybe.

I usually try to vote non-partisan in Tucson when it comes to development, so I look at a candidate's history or try to find info about where they stood on previous developments. Unless, they are a real douche bag of a person...

[somethingfast]

part of the problem in Tucson (like all smaller or smaller-minded cities) is that, like the slower velocity of money due to lack of entrepreneurial funding, extrinsic investment, etc., there is less turn in local government. you get lifers on boards and councils and that stifles innovation. a place like Phoenix by comparison encourages more turnover and competition of ideas that other bigger economic powerhouses share in common. smaller cities like Tucsn become their own worst enemy in that these fiefdoms protect their own bubbles at the cost of innovation/progress. that is why in a stagnant environment it's important to vote in new blood and further encourage new blood to run by doing that. if you keep voting the same ol same ol you're going to get the same ol same ol. but i honestly think the cult of personality that Tucson has embraces that dynamic unfortunately.

[Obadno]

Maybe this is a misread on my part but I think a lot of the development issues with Tucson is there is not a desire by the general population (thus the officials) to try and really do any sort of rapid growth.

I never got the impression Tucson wanted or wants to be a big city, hell I get the impression most people in Tucson already feel like its gotten too big.

I know that's sort of a metaphysical analysis but I think simply the desire for growth (lack there of) is a major reason you don't get that sort of drive for Tucson development.

[AZ71]

I agree with the last commenter. Tucson does have this "no-growth" concept. They oppose everything. They dont want the I-11 corridor through Avra Valley. Then you give them an alternative like the Benson to San Manuel route and they're up in arms about that too. They say they want to keep that corridor on I-10 which means there will have to be a center elevated lane (like the carpool lanes in CA) but there will vote that down too. It never stops. Aviation Pkwy should have been a high speed rail line from TIA to downtown. Not a parkway with stupid lights. No one uses it for that.

I'm not so sure bringing in youth to city council positions will help. They seem all about nature and bike paths. But it doesn't matter, Steve Kozachik was elected again and he's the one that axed the 25-story Sheraton Hotel downtown a decade ago. He said he thought it'd dominate the hotel market in downtown. Ok...great, now we have a 6-story Doubletree and that Hampton Inn/Home2Suites near TCC. Yea, big improvement that took a decade to get.

I just heard back from a residential developer about 75 Broadway. He actually looked into it and said that that property had other terms associated with it. Other development deals cut so it would be a huge lengthy process. He also said his company has tried to enter the Tucson marketplace but Tucson is generally not inviting, complicated...and the big thing is the labor force is so small there aren't enough workers to build a 25-story building. OK...so how do they build MainGate student housing in 18 months? I told him to bring his own workers down from Phx on the cities dime.

This is what I suggest...every single one of us go to Rio Nuevo's website and email your thoughts. Tell them you're tired of the non-growth. Tired using local developers with ugly buildings and concepts and we need to use an "upward, not outward" approach to correct urban sprawl. Stop focusing on office space. (Downtown will never be home to businesses, its focus should be residential, retail, restaurants, entertainment, conventions) and start building these residential towers. HSL should have made one tall FLIN tower instead of using SO MUCH LAND over the entire NE corner of the TCC complex. Its absurd they would allow that.

The sad part of this is the Ronstadt Center that was supposed to look cool and everything is a Peach Property too. So now we know for sure that will never be built either.

We have to force Fletcher at Rio....and even contact all the city council members to be pro-building and pro-height. I'm sick of these 5-7 story mid-rise buildings with no design appeal. Its ruining downtown..and there are only a few empty lots left to build now.

[andrewsaturn]

part of the problem in Tucson (like all smaller or smaller-minded cities) is that, like the slower velocity of money due to lack of entrepreneurial funding, extrinsic investment, etc., there is less turn in local government. you get lifers on boards and councils and that stifles innovation. a place like Phoenix by comparison encourages more turnover and competition of ideas that other bigger economic powerhouses share in common. smaller cities like Tucsn become their own worst enemy in that these fiefdoms protect their own bubbles at the cost of innovation/progress. that is why in a stagnant environment it's important to vote in new blood and further encourage new blood to run by doing that. if you keep voting the same ol same ol you're going to get the same ol same ol. but i honestly think the cult of personality that Tucson has embraces that dynamic unfortunately.

I think Tucson is trying to break out of this personality albeit it's going frustratingly slowly. I think progressives win and lose sometimes. Streetcar still got built with a lot of oppositions and Reid Park zoo is still expanding albeit with a new plan. I think many Tucsonans are hungry for change but it seems like these people simply don't vote either. I think as we improve the city little by little and take care of the basic stuff ( like improving roads, planting more trees, more sidewalks, tearing down abandon buildings) bigger change can happen and hopefully it can build some sort of momentum.

[andrewsaturn]

Eckbo Plaza restoration is complete:

https://i.imgur.com/eAyyMB9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jVha5Va.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/qAHqkvR.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/SD6Kie6.jpg

[andrewsaturn]

I wasn't able to listen to this past RN meeting but this article I think sums it up:

https://realestatedaily-news.com/rio-nuevo-shares-sunshine-mile-overlay-approval-announces-the-solicitation-of-private-developers-for-two-full-blocks/

[somethingfast]

^ guys I'm old enough to remember these same old arguments about the "no-growth" NIMBY crowd in Tucson back in the 80's. sounds like nothing's changed. basically if you want some high-rises and actual urbanity you need to leave. i don't see Tucson changing. it's a legacy attitude that people seem to inherit when they get there. look at Arizona Stadium - it's by far the ugliest stadium in the PAC-12 and part of the reason the program sucks. but they act like it's the Roman Coliseum. okay sure whatever.

[ZonaRealtor2021]

I’m going to try & respond to all of these great insights you guys have…
I’ll start by saying this as far as driving in and out of the city it’s ugly as hell but I think there is an opportunity to really change that due to our amazing mountains & one-of-a-kind desert landscape, to really make a lasting impression on people driving in and out of the city. I think it starts with the city taking a more in charge approach with the freeway system I know that’s handled by the state but picking up trash, cohesive landscaping and removal of graffiti is a good start even before we can build up on those huge empty lots along I10 &19.
With that being said I don’t think the answer is more power centers I think those are also equally ugly ( I would rather have the dirt lots) that’s like every other city out there.
As far as new blood in city government I agree I think there needs to be a change I really wish we could annex Casas adobes and the foothills for many reasons but that’s never gonna happen.
I think there needs to be a in-depth investigation as to why Fletcher & Rio Nuevo seems to only look at local developers it smells fishy to me.
As far as the Mercado is concerned it’s nice but it’s so closed off from downtown due to I10 I don’t think you ever really feel part of the heart of downtown.
I really feel the next major point of interest and construction boom is going to be along miracle mile and oracle…I’ve been watching the Thrive in the 05 and they’re really working hard and have some good ideas.. its really going to change the feel of entering downtown from the north side.
I really wish and prefer tracks in the ground but if thats too expensive & going to take another 20 to 30 years I would rather us invest in rapid bus routes like they did in Albuquerque from downtown to the airport down Campbell/Kino then downtown up to Tucson Mall.
We definitely got to do something before we completely lose our opportunity too change for the better!
But with Tucson threatening to pull out of the next round of the RTA it doesn’t look good.:shrug:

[ZonaRealtor2021]

Also I just read that a few of the neighborhoods that were left out of the initial process are now back in and they lowered heights of the new overlay District from 16 to 6 or 4 stories what a joke!!!!! Does anybody have any more info on what areas this exactly covers now?

[AZ71]

Also I just read that a few of the neighborhoods that were left out of the initial process are now back in and they lowered heights of the new overlay District from 16 to 6 or 4 stories what a joke!!!!! Does anybody have any more info on what areas this exactly covers now?

I think you're talking about the Sunshine Mile district from Euclid to Country Club. They had zoned it to be slightly higher but you have some old residents who are afraid of shadows complaining...so they lowered it. Which is just so crazy cause you have some of Tucson's biggest buildings out at Williams Centre and that 5151 Broadway building already along Broadway. But regardless...Sunshine Mile is going to be a HUGE failure in every way. The buildings they saved were not worth saving. They didn't provide the trolley extension to get people there from downtown. Old Steve Kozachik was the one who masterminded bigger sidewalks eliminating space for another lane of traffic or a future trolley line. He makes all the wrong decisions.

As much as we all want tall buildings its just not ever gonna happen. I've been waiting for something since 1986 when they build One South Church. Now you drive through downtown and its mixed-use, mid-rise hell of everything being 5-7 stories max.

I still think public pressure to increase every project in size is the only option.

[ZonaRealtor2021]

:haha:I think you're talking about the Sunshine Mile district from Euclid to Country Club. They had zoned it to be slightly higher but you have some old residents who are afraid of shadows complaining...so they lowered it. Which is just so crazy cause you have some of Tucson's biggest buildings out at Williams Centre and that 5151 Broadway building already along Broadway. But regardless...Sunshine Mile is going to be a HUGE failure in every way. The buildings they saved were not worth saving. They didn't provide the trolley extension to get people there from downtown. Old Steve Kozachik was the one who masterminded bigger sidewalks eliminating space for another lane of traffic or a future trolley line. He makes all the wrong decisions.

As much as we all want tall buildings its just not ever gonna happen. I've been waiting for something since 1986 when they build One South Church. Now you drive through downtown and its mixed-use, mid-rise hell of everything being 5-7 stories max.

I still think public pressure to increase every project in size is the only option.
Wow so none of the sunshine mile is going to be zoned for 16 stories now?

Steven K is a bozo I really have a lot of distain for that idiot!!!!

Since our DT footprint is so small already that was our only chance to get some mid rise height and density outside of the current DT core.

Like what does he do besides try to get everything canceled in this town even the UofA got sick of him and let his ass go:haha::haha:

[ZonaRealtor2021]

I think you're talking about the Sunshine Mile district from Euclid to Country Club. They had zoned it to be slightly higher but you have some old residents who are afraid of shadows complaining...so they lowered it. Which is just so crazy cause you have some of Tucson's biggest buildings out at Williams Centre and that 5151 Broadway building already along Broadway. But regardless...Sunshine Mile is going to be a HUGE failure in every way. The buildings they saved were not worth saving. They didn't provide the trolley extension to get people there from downtown. Old Steve Kozachik was the one who masterminded bigger sidewalks eliminating space for another lane of traffic or a future trolley line. He makes all the wrong decisions.

As much as we all want tall buildings its just not ever gonna happen. I've been waiting for something since 1986 when they build One South Church. Now you drive through downtown and its mixed-use, mid-rise hell of everything being 5-7 stories max.

I still think public pressure to increase every project in size is the only option.
Yea it sounds like it’s turning into another Tucson failure!!
It would’ve been cool to have the street car run pass those bungalows repurposed for businesses like they’re currently doing and also the new development with those potential mid and low rise mix use building.

They completely dropped the ball by doing this dumb Broadway widening project it’s a complete waste of time and money for an extra lane that nobody wants!!!

[combusean]

Bigger sidewalks and bike lanes are what you want. I'm not really sure how Kozachik failed with the Sunshine Mile widening.

The Friedman and Sollet blocks' buildings would likely be illegal to build under any modern zoning code so the fact that they were saved is a good thing. Had they been demolished you would have gotten what Phoenix has seen--midcentury streetfront retail buildings being replaced by corporate crap and fast food huts as a weird side effect of urban gentrification turning the area even more suburban than it already is.

In addition, zoning for highrises without demand is generally a mistake. You get landbanking and teardowns and nothing gets developed as Phoenix has seen. Further complicating matters is that individual parcel ownership complicates things and makes it harder for high-rise lots to assemble and pencil out...

However, four stories is low and I would have probably gone to 7 or 8 to account for modern building codes that extract the most they can out of woodframe construction. People here seem to hate 5 story construction and I freaking love seeing these complexes go up in Phoenix. Schlock is good if you want to have a dynamic street scene.

My recommendation: I would push for the development environment in Tucson to be more predictable and respondent to market demand rather than force private businesses to spend money they either don't or can't spend as has been suggested. Somebody here already asked a developer about this and it's absolutely the problem. I've looked at the zoning code in Tucson and it is far from user-friendly and I can't even imagine the approvals process.

The city just does not give me the sense that it's open for business.

Still, Tucson has a great university, a decent tourism market, the Optics Valley, and is doing pretty well. I again think it's a few years off but the challenges are not insurmountable.

[Azstar]

[QUOTE=

In addition, zoning for highrises without demand is generally a mistake. You get landbanking and teardowns and nothing gets developed as Phoenix has seen. Further complicating matters is that individual parcel ownership complicates things and makes it harder for high-rise lots to assemble and pencil out...[/QUOTE]

It's economics, for the most part. No developer or financial institution is going to risk investing millions of dollars in skyscraper or forward looking design just because some people demand it.

[AZ71]

It's economics, for the most part. No developer or financial institution is going to risk investing millions of dollars in skyscraper or forward looking design just because some people demand it.

Why when every other city, especially up in Phx/Tempe are building residential high-rises and hotels...but Tucson can't? THE FLIN could have very well narrowed their footprint and built the same amount of apts going up and used less of the valuable TCC land....especially with asking rents topping near $3k a month.

[AZ71]

Bigger sidewalks and bike lanes are what you want. I'm not really sure how Kozachik failed with the Sunshine Mile widening.

The Friedman and Sollet blocks' buildings would likely be illegal to build under any modern zoning code so the fact that they were saved is a good thing. Had they been demolished you would have gotten what Phoenix has seen--midcentury streetfront retail buildings being replaced by corporate crap and fast food huts as a weird side effect of urban gentrification turning the area even more suburban than it already is.

In addition, zoning for highrises without demand is generally a mistake. You get landbanking and teardowns and nothing gets developed as Phoenix has seen. Further complicating matters is that individual parcel ownership complicates things and makes it harder for high-rise lots to assemble and pencil out...

However, four stories is low and I would have probably gone to 7 or 8 to account for modern building codes that extract the most they can out of woodframe construction. People here seem to hate 5 story construction and I freaking love seeing these complexes go up in Phoenix. Schlock is good if you want to have a dynamic street scene.

My recommendation: I would push for the development environment in Tucson to be more predictable and respondent to market demand rather than force private businesses to spend money they either don't or can't spend as has been suggested. Somebody here already asked a developer about this and it's absolutely the problem. I've looked at the zoning code in Tucson and it is far from user-friendly and I can't even imagine the approvals process.

The city just does not give me the sense that it's open for business.

Still, Tucson has a great university, a decent tourism market, the Optics Valley, and is doing pretty well. I again think it's a few years off but the challenges are not insurmountable.

1) Kozachik failed Broadway by eliminating a lane therefore eliminating the chance of the trolley expansion down that lane eastward.

2) I understand historic preservation. Saving the Chase Building and Broadway Plaza at Broadway & Country Club is 100% correct. Saving googie-style Welcome Diner (former Sambo's) was a good move. But these other buildings you speak of are insignificant to the amount of money to restore them. And if the city had some kind of architecture requirements and guidelines (like Santa Barbara and Pasadena does) you wouldn't get a mishmash of different buildings and plazas like Phx. But saving these old crumbling buildings with asbestos was a huge waste of money. I also disagree with saving the 4 bungalows and relocating them back away from the street. Not worth the money long term to save 4 houses from an era gone by when they were just houses. You can find those same 4 homes one street back in the neighborhood. There is no reason to force repurpose them. That costs incredible amounts of money to build professional kitchens and exhausts and fire codes, etc.

3) They weren't talking about 16 story buildings down Broadway. Merely 6-8 stories and there is demand for that. They just built THE MARK apartments on Broadway across from Welcome Diner that are 8 stories. The desire and need is there. They cant build housing quick enough but to prohibit that, or even office space which I mentioned is already there...is ridiculous and another form of letting people dictate the progression of a city and it biting us in our behinds a decade+ later. If there is any street to have tall buildings on its Broadway Blvd going to the city centers on the east end.

4) Yes, apparently getting buildings built or approved is a pain in the butt and that needs to stop. I gather its mainly from people like Kozachik who then rally for a few people in his Ward 6 that don't want it. It ruins everything. Tucson is a great city! I think thats why we're all on here trying to give our opinions on how to grow it and make it world-class and make it better. But I can tell you building THE FLIN downtown on TCC property did not help one bit. La Placita had the right concept. But it was old and wonky. They should have built one tall residential HSL tower and the rest should have been restaurants, retail, etc. Where on earth are convention center attendee's supposed to even eat? There is NOTHING around there but a Subway and Bruegger's Bagles all the way over on Congress & Stone. There is just no planning in our downtown. They spent $5m to lure conventions here but if there aren't services around it...these conventions wont come back.

[combusean]

Why when every other city, especially up in Phx/Tempe are building residential high-rises and hotels...but Tucson can't? THE FLIN could have very well narrowed their footprint and built the same amount of apts going up and used less of the valuable TCC land....especially with asking rents topping near $3k a month.

The nature of these buildings like Flinn is that they can get near high-rise density without committing to the materials cost of concrete and steel or the artisan construction workers that can work with it. Carpenters are basically on the lowest end of the construction pay scale. Much cheaper to pay than tower crane operators and ironworkers.

Generally speaking you want these 5 story land gobblers because schlock is cheap and they put people on the ground. I can't wait to see Phoenix in 30 years with all these crap high-density buildings at the end of their service life. In the meantime, every one that goes up increases the demand for the remaining parcels in the area creating a natural build up.

The high-rises that are going up in Phoenix and Tempe are for the most part squat buildings that are built to be sold. And I'm not so sure about "every other city"--Phoenix and Tempe are seeing unusual growth rates fueled by tech backoffice demand. Tucson does not have that.

I've looked at TIA's airport connections and it almost seems with American that they're a backoffice suburb of Texas which is pretty hard to compete with.

My recommendation: Get United (the incumbent carrier in San Francisco) to schedule another flight from SFO so that a tech manager can leave in the morning, have a 2hr15m flight to Tucson, and leave in the evening. Seriously like one extra round trip a day would be a world of difference for the city and compete well against Phoenix for tech backoffice dollars. Even another flight from San Jose scheduled around this time would be useful with Southwest.

[combusean]

1) Kozachik failed Broadway be eliminating a lane therefore eliminating the chance of the trolley expansion down that lane eastward.

They didn't eliminate a lane, they widened the street. Blank canvas my man.

I was pretty sure any streetcar extensions were to be on Speedway anyways.

Was there some contingent to extend the streetcar on Broadway or what? Most cities don't plan transit on streets this close to each other.

2) I understand historic preservation. Saving the Chase Building and Broadway Plaza at Broadway & Country Club is 100% correct. Saving googie-style Welcome Diner (former Sambo's) was a good move. But these other buildings you speak of are insignificant to the amount of money to restore them. And if the city had some kind of architecture requirements and guidelines (like Santa Barbara and Pasadena does) you wouldn't get a mishmash of different buildings and plazas like Phx. But saving these old crumbling buildings with asbestos was a huge waste of money. I also disagree with saving the 4 bungalows and relocating them back away from the street. Not worth the money long term to save 4 houses from an era gone by when they were just houses. You can find those same 4 homes one street back in the neighborhood. There is no reason to force repurpose them. That costs incredible amounts of money to build professional kitchens and exhausts and fire codes, etc.


With historic preservation, I often defer to the Jane Jacobs approach that any old building is worth saving.

What's the alternative? Demolishing them and letting the crummy market catch up?

Having a rentable building with character is a good thing. Those buildings can't get rented any faster in Phoenix.

Those same bungalows were the guts of the Roosevelt Arts District's commercial activities and are often repurposed for the same.

The other part was rehabbing the buildings was the best way to mitigate the impact of the street widening itself.

Honestly my take is that preserving those buildings after a condemnation proceeding was incredibly forward thinking and not at all a regression.

3) They weren't talking about 16 story buildings down Broadway. Merely 6-8 stories and there is demand for that. They just built THE MARK apartments on Broadway across from Welcome Diner that are 8 stories. The desire and need is there. They cant build housing quick enough but to prohibit that, or even office space which I mentioned is already there...is ridiculous and another form of letting people dictate the progression of a city and it biting us in our behinds a decade+ later. If there is any street to have tall buildings on its Broadway Blvd going to the city centers on the east end.

I thought I read 16 stories was contemplated and the neighborhoods relegated it to 4.

I did say that 4 was too low and 6 - 8 is respondent to market demands with modern building codes.

The Mark, however, is... downright terrible.

Unscreened garage on the perimeter, overly wide unusable setbacks with needless atrociously ugly fencing, no pedestrian entrances on its whole length on Broadway, weird stepped back massing... The thing is literally the worst modern building I've ever seen.

It seems like it tries to comprehend 2020 buildings with 1980s Tucson design standards and fails at even that. I cannot even imagine the hell the developers went through to do that, and if that was intentional everyone involved should be fired. If that went through design review and approved that committee should be straight up sent to prison.

I can't even imagine the design choices that went into this. It's like somebody took the worst of dated Scottsdale urban design and injected it with a cocktail of crack and meth. Like, I kind of get it ... it "fits" in the urban nightmare of Broadway ... in the worst possibly designed street ever. A street that makes an absolute mockery of the desert it's supposed to preserve.

James Howard Kunstler would have a field day about this "nature bandaid."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jBMP7mjmno&t=652s


4) Yes, apparently getting buildings built or approved is a pain in the butt and that needs to stop. I gather its mainly from people like Kozachik who then rally for a few people in his Ward 6 that don't want it. It ruins everything. Tucson is a great city! I think thats why we're all on here trying to give our opinions on how to grow it and make it world-class and make it better. But I can tell you building THE FLIN downtown on TCC property did not help one bit. La Placita has the right concept. But it was old and wonky. They should have built one tall residential HSL tower and the rest should have been restaurants, retail, etc. Where on earth are convention center attendee's supposed to even eat? There is NOTHING around there but a Subway and Bruegger's Bagles all the way over on Congress & Stone. There is just no planning in our downtown. They spent $5m to lure conventions here but if there aren't services around it...they wont come back.

I don't think it's about Kozachik in particular. I definitely think he's the byproduct of his ward however because that's almost always how things happen. The problems I'm seeing are with city staff themselves and a general mentality that somehow approves crap like The Mark and everyone, including Kozachik's district thinks this is ok.

[ZonaRealtor2021]

I personally feel indifferent on a few of the points made in here..For 1) I don’t see the Broadway widening project as a good use of not only funds but functionality IMO its a complete waste of money, time, business disruption, and business/ land acquisitions that they needed just to add 6 foot wide sidewalks and or wider bike lanes (not even separated bike lanes which is what the bicycle community asked for) and adding a third lane is asinine we are trying to get people out of their cars and use public transportation not make it more comfortable for cars heading into downtown.
2) I should’ve been more in-depth earlier I think saving the bungalows was a great idea even though they are like ever other bungalow in the area, really expensive to move and rehab but it’s a unique idea. The Friedman and Sollet blocks was a great idea that they got right forsure! These three plans gives you a sense of place/place making.
3) I’ll be honest I don’t know a lot about city codes but I do know where there’s a will there’s a way and when a developer see’s money they will work around it.
Unfortunately Tucson is historically known for being not open for business & not business friendly we have chipped away at that some with our former mayor Rothschild but we still have work to do.
4)If we were going to have any street car extension it needed to be down Broadway first it makes sense that is exactly the whole point of the Rio Nuevo tax district all the way from downtown to the park place mall. The whole point I thought of the sunshine mile was to add more businesses and higher density residential to generate taxes for the district overall???? I think it’s pretty clear we don’t have very much available land to begin with I was never mistaken they were going to have 16 story buildings from downtowns core all the way down to the east side but having buildings above eight stories makes sense on Broadway just adjacent to DT’s core.
5) As far as new builds are concerned they’re all ugly and stale, I think we can all agree on that but it is what it is I’d rather have something than nothing and as long as we continue to let Steve and the few old timers/ NIMBY’S we are not going to see much progress.

[ZonaRealtor2021]

The nature of these buildings like Flinn is that they can get near high-rise density without committing to the materials cost of concrete and steel or the artisan construction workers that can work with it. Carpenters are basically on the lowest end of the construction pay scale. Much cheaper to pay than tower crane operators and ironworkers.

Generally speaking you want these 5 story land gobblers because schlock is cheap and they put people on the ground. I can't wait to see Phoenix in 30 years with all these crap high-density buildings at the end of their service life. In the meantime, every one that goes up increases the demand for the remaining parcels in the area creating a natural build up.

The high-rises that are going up in Phoenix and Tempe are for the most part squat buildings that are built to be sold. And I'm not so sure about "every other city"--Phoenix and Tempe are seeing unusual growth rates fueled by tech backoffice demand. Tucson does not have that.

I've looked at TIA's airport connections and it almost seems with American that they're a backoffice suburb of Texas which is pretty hard to compete with.

My recommendation: Get United (the incumbent carrier in San Francisco) to schedule another flight from SFO so that a tech manager can leave in the morning, have a 2hr15m flight to Tucson, and leave in the evening. Seriously like one extra round trip a day would be a world of difference for the city and compete well against Phoenix for tech backoffice dollars. Even another flight from San Jose scheduled around this time would be useful with Southwest.
We did have one on SW into Oakland to start up in March of this year and before the first flight they canceled the whole route.

Also Alaska Airlines canceled the direct nonstop flight from San Jose to Tucson as well.

It’s unfortunate that Tucsonans would rather drive & waste their time to head up to sky harbor to save $50 -$100 bucks & when you think about it you really don’t save much whether you do the shuttles or drive plus the airport parking fee’s & gas.

Our airport catchment population is around 1.3 million if I remember the article correctly and it should be able to sustain more flights then we currently do. I believe TIA says they lose around 1 million passengers a year to sky harbor.

Not sure how we can change that?? We are still the largest metro without a direct flight to the New York City metropolitan area!!! it’s so sad.

[ZonaRealtor2021]

I just read today in the Star that Scott Steitler is developing a second boutique hotel on the Depot Plaza block, maybe this is what Fletcher was talking about when he said Marriott was committed to a DT location on the Buckmaster show??

Also he talks about developing little love burger ( in the former Diablo Burger location) which is the precursor to the 12,000 square-foot love burger project that is currently under construction in the Corbett block development to come online next summer.

He’s playing off how Café Poca Costa’ s and Little Poca Cosa was done…

[Azstar]

"Not sure how we can change that?? We are still the largest metro without a direct flight to the New York City metropolitan area!!! it’s so sad."

Economics, again. JetBlue, United, and Continental all tried nonstop flights to New York. United also had nonstop flights to Dulles Airport, and American nonstop to their Charlotte hub. The bottom line is, airlines are looking for a steady load of high fare paying business travelers to sustain the flights. Tucson can't provide those types of passengers, so even if flight is 100% filled with deeply discounted travelers, that's not viable, to the airline bean counters.

[InTheBurbs]

I just read today in the Star that Scott Steitler is developing a second boutique hotel on the Depot Plaza block, maybe this is what Fletcher was talking about when he said Marriott was committed to a DT location on the Buckmaster show??

Isn't that where they were originally going to put the Moxy before they moved it several times and it dropped off the radar?

[AZ71]

Isn't that where they were originally going to put the Moxy before they moved it several times and it dropped off the radar?

I thought they determined they couldn't build a hotel on top of that empty land because its the top of the parking structure. So thats why they proposed that weird Moxy Hotel combo building on top of the Rialto that quickly got cancelled too. I think that land will always be empty or the yearly ice rink or something. Should probably just turn it into a park instead of the gravel lot it is.

[AZ71]

They didn't eliminate a lane, they widened the street. Blank canvas my man.

I was pretty sure any streetcar extensions were to be on Speedway anyways.

Was there some contingent to extend the streetcar on Broadway or what? Most cities don't plan transit on streets this close to each other.



With historic preservation, I often defer to the Jane Jacobs approach that any old building is worth saving.

What's the alternative? Demolishing them and letting the crummy market catch up?

Having a rentable building with character is a good thing. Those buildings can't get rented any faster in Phoenix.

Those same bungalows were the guts of the Roosevelt Arts District's commercial activities and are often repurposed for the same.

The other part was rehabbing the buildings was the best way to mitigate the impact of the street widening itself.

Honestly my take is that preserving those buildings after a condemnation proceeding was incredibly forward thinking and not at all a regression.



I thought I read 16 stories was contemplated and the neighborhoods relegated it to 4.

I did say that 4 was too low and 6 - 8 is respondent to market demands with modern building codes.

The Mark, however, is... downright terrible.

Unscreened garage on the perimeter, overly wide unusable setbacks with needless atrociously ugly fencing, no pedestrian entrances on its whole length on Broadway, weird stepped back massing... The thing is literally the worst modern building I've ever seen.

It seems like it tries to comprehend 2020 buildings with 1980s Tucson design standards and fails at even that. I cannot even imagine the hell the developers went through to do that, and if that was intentional everyone involved should be fired. If that went through design review and approved that committee should be straight up sent to prison.

I can't even imagine the design choices that went into this. It's like somebody took the worst of dated Scottsdale urban design and injected it with a cocktail of crack and meth. Like, I kind of get it ... it "fits" in the urban nightmare of Broadway ... in the worst possibly designed street ever. A street that makes an absolute mockery of the desert it's supposed to preserve.

James Howard Kunstler would have a field day about this "nature bandaid."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jBMP7mjmno&t=652s




I don't think it's about Kozachik in particular. I definitely think he's the byproduct of his ward however because that's almost always how things happen. The problems I'm seeing are with city staff themselves and a general mentality that somehow approves crap like The Mark and everyone, including Kozachik's district thinks this is ok.'


They definitely elininated a lane, or the center lane that would have housed the trolley. I'll find the news article about it and Kozachik. And Broadway has ALWAYS been the street to expand the trolley or mass transit. You can go back into RTA plans from the past 20 years and see that was their concept. It still is. That is why its so baffling this trolley expansion isn't happening simultaneously. Thats why the trolley ends at Broadway before it turns left to get back to 4th. Its designed to go east. Speedway has never been on any master expansion plan.

THE MARK turned into a disaster because of the neighborhood requirements. It was just a normal 8 story building but the residents complained so much that 8 stories along Broadway would be too high. So they compromised on a stairstep design so it looks smaller driving on Broadway and it became back heavy to 8 stories to disguise it. I'm happy the developers stayed with it. Even after it was burned down from arson. But all these design compromises you can 100% blame on these resident meetings. Again, neighborhoods shouldn't have this much power in the development of a city. Its on freaking Broadway Blvd. But in the end...I'd rather have more housing for people with less lawns and urban sprawl in their design. I've seen far uglier buildings...like THE FLIN. Talk about 80s. I'm surprised there isn't a neon "THE FLIN" sign on the outside.

And while I think Broadway is pretty hideous from Euclid to Country Club (mainly to me trying to save these old plazas just cause they're built in 1950s) but the ugliest street in all of Tucson is Grant Rd to me. From I-10 to Park. And then Tucson Blvd to Swan. Its hideous. Entire street and all the buildings on either side should have been leveled. Actually..they should have made Grant a freeway and apparently it was one of the options before they chickened out and just widened it. They were thinking of doing a depressed freeway or a road with grade-separated intersections. But as always...community people screamed...cause ya know...Grant & Alvernon is such a beautiful intersection to be preserved.

[ZonaRealtor2021]

Exactly when Jet Blue pulled out of Tucson in 2008 because of low profit margin‘s Tucson had an average of just under 500 people a day heading to the New York City market.
12 years later I hear that’s almost double I know that the meat and potatoes of airlines is Business travelers. I feel Tucson can sustain a flight now over 12 years after the fact. I feel that we have more business ( pre COVID) that would sustain something like that if it was the right airline. The reason why American Airlines didn’t work out was because it was too big of an aircraft & it was eating into the profit margin‘s not to mention travelers were still willing to drive up to Phoenix for that extra $50/$100 dollar savings instead of flying local.

During the 2008 inside Tucson business article it talks about why Jet Blue is leaving and why Albuquerque and Ontario were able to keep their flights.

I believe Tucson like Albuquerque currently has can sustained a flight to New York City if it’s just a few days out the week but year-round not seasonal.

Tucson situation is unique in that it is less than 120 miles away & less than a 2 Hour drive from such a major airport like sky harbor it prevents TIA from really having any ability to grow.

[ZonaRealtor2021]

Isn't that where they were originally going to put the Moxy before they moved it several times and it dropped off the radar?

Yeah exactly that’s why I’m super confused as to why the article read that they were going back to that location but maybe they figured out a way to work with the garage situation or they dropped it down considerably in height?

I was hoping they were going to say it was about the dormant HSL property Hotel Arizona, I wish we could get that up and going!!! I’m sure the Hyatt Regency is never going to happen.

Just a thought but could you turn the hotel into residential or is that not a viable option? I know they’re trying to build an eight story condominium tower next to it where they tore some of it down, but how about the whole 13 story structure itself?? :shrug:

[AZ71]

Yeah exactly that’s why I’m super confused as to why the article read that they were going back to that location but maybe they figured out a way to work with the garage situation or they dropped it down considerably in height?

I was hoping they were going to say it was about the dormant HSL property Hotel Arizona, I wish we could get that up and going!!! I’m sure the Hyatt Regency is never going to happen.

Just a thought but could you turn the hotel into residential or is that not a viable option? I know they’re trying to build an eight story condominium tower next to it where they tore some of it down, but how about the whole 13 story structure itself?? :shrug:

Where are you reading the Moxy is back on at the Depot Plaza? I cant find any info on that.

HSL just sold two of its apartment complexes last week getting them about $160M. Maybe they'll use some of that money to get the AZ Hotel project moving.

I've never heard of this 8-story condo proposal on the garage lot west of the AZ Hotel. Ugh...another mixed-use building. Everything the same height. I've always thought since that corner is kind of a gateway corner into the city they could develop some kind of retail, restaurant, entertainment concept with residential on top of it. There is nowhere to eat downtown on the downslope towards the freeway. Where do you go if you're attending a convention? No where for the Gov't Buildings across the street. It's such a missed opportunity.

I envision something like these:
https://i.imgur.com/R6SSz4X.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/87lPJXN.png
https://i.imgur.com/DfuUlZR.png

Or even add onto the AZ Hotel with a mixed-use place so it looks like one cohesive structure:
https://i.imgur.com/3rdea49.jpg

But you know we're just gonna get a duplicate of the FLIN.

[InTheBurbs]

Where are you reading the Moxy is back on at the Depot Plaza? I cant find any info on that.


Yesterday's Star didn't mention Moxy specifically, just that a boutique hotel was being developed at that spot:
"Loveblock bought Diablo Burger and its sister Good Oak Bar at 316 E. Congress in August as part of the company’s overall mission to continue revitalizing downtown. The company also is developing a second boutique hotel on the so-called Depot Plaza Block, one of four blocks Steitler’s company owns."

Full article here. (https://tucson.com/news/local/subscriber/tucsons-burger-craze-to-get-a-little-downtown-love-with-new-eatery/article_1d1c81de-1c9d-11ec-b61a-ab7c421cc10e.html)

Not sure if this is something new, or if they are referencing old information.

[AZ71]

Yesterday's Star didn't mention Moxy specifically, just that a boutique hotel was being developed at that spot:
"Loveblock bought Diablo Burger and its sister Good Oak Bar at 316 E. Congress in August as part of the company’s overall mission to continue revitalizing downtown. The company also is developing a second boutique hotel on the so-called Depot Plaza Block, one of four blocks Steitler’s company owns."

Full article here. (https://tucson.com/news/local/subscriber/tucsons-burger-craze-to-get-a-little-downtown-love-with-new-eatery/article_1d1c81de-1c9d-11ec-b61a-ab7c421cc10e.html)

Not sure if this is something new, or if they are referencing old information.

My guess is its old information. My sense is Scott Stietler is pretty small time. He was associated with AC Marriott through Dabdoub. His Moxy at the Rialto fell apart pretty quickly. The big Corbett idea fell apart to now a burger joint on the corner instead...and it sounds like he's into organizing a burger roundup of some sort through all of Congress St. :shrug: This town needs real developers.

[ZonaRealtor2021]

That would be freakin amazing if we could get something like that actually built..

But it seems to me nor gens keeps dodging this pending lawsuit, I don’t know how and why they ended up giving it to him years ago, but it was a huge mistake hopefully the delay will allow somebody with vision and actual monies to get something done it’s embarrassing that we have such a huge empty lot in our downtown.

It’s not a good luck when passing by on I10! since this is our last huge available lot in the downtown core it really needs to be good and thoughtfully put together.

But since we couldn’t get 75 East Broadway done or the Ronstadt I’m not going to hold my breath, I’m sure they’ll give it to HSL or another sub par developer. :haha::haha::haha::haha::haha::

[AZ71]

That would be freakin amazing if we could get something like that actually built..

But it seems to me nor gens keeps dodging this pending lawsuit, I don’t know how and why they ended up giving it to him years ago, but it was a huge mistake hopefully the delay will allow somebody with vision and actual monies to get something done it’s embarrassing that we have such a huge empty lot in our downtown.

It’s not a good luck when passing by on I10! since this is our last huge available lot in the downtown core it really needs to be good and thoughtfully put together.

But since we couldn’t get 75 East Broadway done or the Ronstadt I’m not going to hold my breath, I’m sure they’ll give it to HSL or another sub par developer. :haha::haha::haha::haha::haha::


Is there some kind of bylaw in the Rio Nuevo contract that says they have to use local developers? If that's the case ain't nothing big ever gonna be built. I think the best developer in Tucson that Rio has used is the The Gadsden Company. They built the Bautista and the Monier over there in the Mercado. They actually get things completed. I've heard there is quite a lot of bad blood between Rio and HSL. Even though HSL owns half of TCC now. HSL kept wanting more TIF money or something that what other developers were getting. Thats why the AZ HOTEL is still sitting empty. But that was when Humberto Lopez was president. He has since stepped down into the Chairman of the Board position and his then VP is now the President, Omar Mireles. So maybe we'll get somewhere since we've seen THE FLIN at least go up since Mireles stepped in.

[ZonaRealtor2021]

I really hope you’re right, Tucson has so much potential to be in a class of its own not an Austin, or Portland…

Those are both really great cities and all but they lost their charm along time ago in my opinion once they became so attractive for growth. Tucson will be limited in that kind of explosive growth but if we correctly handle the remaining opportunities we have left we can keep what makes Tucson unique and still have a prosperous city. ( wishful thinking I know but I’m going to be positive that it can still happen)..

:To piggyback on your last comment there must be some kind of behind the scenes deal because it’s so strange and like I mentioned before it’s fishy to me.
I really hope Humberto’s son can do something with the Hotel property if they can’t do a hotel I wish they would turn it into condos or apartments!:)

[ZonaRealtor2021]

My guess is its old information. My sense is Scott Stietler is pretty small time. He was associated with AC Marriott through Dabdoub. His Moxy at the Rialto fell apart pretty quickly. The big Corbett idea fell apart to now a burger joint on the corner instead...and it sounds like he's into organizing a burger roundup of some sort through all of Congress St. :shrug: This town needs real developers.

Also I know the plans eventually calls for an eight story hotel, do you think this is the Marriott site that Fletcher was talking about? if it’s not going to be the Depot Plaza location?

Also I really wish you would find out what hotel brand is going in One South Church???

[Obadno]

I really hope you’re right, Tucson has so much potential to be in a class of its own not an Austin, or Portland…

Those are both really great cities and all but they lost their charm along time ago in my opinion once they became so attractive for growth. Tucson will be limited in that kind of explosive growth but if we correctly handle the remaining opportunities we have left we can keep what makes Tucson unique and still have a prosperous city. ( wishful thinking I know but I’m going to be positive that it can still happen)..

:To piggyback on your last comment there must be some kind of behind the scenes deal because it’s so strange and like I mentioned before it’s fishy to me.
I really hope Humberto’s son can do something with the Hotel property if they can’t do a hotel I wish they would turn it into condos or apartments!:)

I think Tucson will maintain its 1/5 proportion to Phoenix.

2030- 1.2mm
2040-1.4 mm
2050 - 1.6mm

Ec. I dont see phoenix metro growing rapidly once we hit about 7-8mm but I could be wrong. At that point I think growth will slow quite a bit and you'll see other parts of the state become fast growing with Phoenix and Tucson on a matured slow growth trajectory

[AZ71]

Also I know the plans eventually calls for an eight story hotel, do you think this is the Marriott site that Fletcher was talking about? if it’s not going to be the Depot Plaza location?

Also I really wish you would find out what hotel brand is going in One South Church???

I've learned over the years Fletcher at Rio Nuevo often gets the details a bit wrong. It is true the Moxy has been wanting to enter the marketplace but probably no developer can make it happen. I emailed Peach Properties months and months ago (even before covid) to swap their office space to hotel space and put the Moxy there but I never heard back. And now look...east coast money fell apart cause of covid.

As for ONE SOUTH CHURCH...the hotel group is OpWest Partners. I've heard Fletcher refer a few times that its going to be a Montage Hotel (which is one of their brands in their portfolio...but mostly in CA. I suspect it will be the Curio which has a branch in Scottsdale. Or maybe the Pendry in San Diego.). Just my gut feeling. And Fletcher has been saying its 10 stories of the One South Church. Not exactly correct. Really more like 7. First floor is lobby and 2nd restaurant. Floors 3-4 dont exist as they are mechanical floors. Then floors 5-9 will be the rooms. So really its only 7 floors. But whatever. It'll appear as 9 floors I guess. Well it wont appear as anything really since its already built. There will just be a logo on the bottom above the door probably.

[AZ71]

I really hope you’re right, Tucson has so much potential to be in a class of its own not an Austin, or Portland…

Those are both really great cities and all but they lost their charm along time ago in my opinion once they became so attractive for growth. Tucson will be limited in that kind of explosive growth but if we correctly handle the remaining opportunities we have left we can keep what makes Tucson unique and still have a prosperous city. ( wishful thinking I know but I’m going to be positive that it can still happen)..

:To piggyback on your last comment there must be some kind of behind the scenes deal because it’s so strange and like I mentioned before it’s fishy to me.
I really hope Humberto’s son can do something with the Hotel property if they can’t do a hotel I wish they would turn it into condos or apartments!:)

I dont buy that. That Tucson has charm and is being impeded by some buildings. Nonsense. Tucson is growing and the defense and tech industries are out of control. So people can think they live in a small little desert town as they walk to get tacos someplace...but south of the airport we're making nuclear bombs for aviation. There are so many tech industries and now we're a huge distribution hub with 4 Amazon fulfillment centers, Target fulfillment, Home Goods and more. The only thing small about us is our inability to grow our infrastructure around all these big businesses moving in. I mean...we moved the airport tower and facilities and built a new parkway for Raytheon alone.

[Patrick S]

I dont buy that. That Tucson has charm and is being impeded by some buildings. Nonsense. Tucson is growing and the defense and tech industries are out of control. So people can think they live in a small little desert town as they walk to get tacos someplace...but south of the airport we're making nuclear bombs for aviation. There are so many tech industries and now we're a huge distribution hub with 4 Amazon fulfillment centers, Target fulfillment, Home Goods and more. The only thing small about us is our inability to grow our infrastructure around all these big businesses moving in. I mean...we moved the airport tower and facilities and built a new parkway for Raytheon alone.
I actually had to pick someone up at the airport today and was thinking about some of the recent posts on here about losing traffic to Phoenix. Though this is obviously not what's causing that, one thing I thought about was how the growth of the airport was being impeded by its location in relation to I-19 (or I-10). I've been at a few airports this year including Sky Harbor in Phoenix, Cleveland's Airport, Reagan Airport outside of DC, and O'Hare in Chicago. Every one of these airports has a freeway/interstate that takes you right to the airport. Tucson does not. The only bit airport I know of like that is Midway in Chicago and though it's much larger that Tucson's it's also the second (and much smaller) airport in the city. To get to it you need to drive down Valencia from either I-10 or I-19 (and I believe from I-19 you have to pass a railroad crossing that can slow you down). The region needs to build the Sonoran Corridor and have a spur off of it go to a new entrance on the south or east side of the airport to get people to it quicker. This would make it accessible to both I-10 and I-19. But even this isn't a great solution as to access the Sonoran Corridor you have to go way south of Tucson on I-19 or pretty far east on I-10. The airport was built in a bad place with poor infrastructure and accessibility. Lots of talk about transit a lot lately and the need for it to go down Broadway and to TIA. I couldn't agree more. Light rail (or at least a street car) should extend from downtown down Broadway to at least Kolb Rd. which really is the main north-south hub out here on the east side. Broadway could be our version of Phoenix's Central Ave. which connects downtown and midtown Phoenix. This should be an artery we build out with density. Have a line branch off up and down Campbell/Kino (connecting to the U of A) and to down to the Bridges/tech park then down to TIA. AZ71 had stated the need for high speed rail down Aviation (I assumed it was light rail they meant). Not a bad idea either, could connect out to DMAFB and get those folks downtown without driving. I disagree though that no one uses it. Though it certainly is underutilized when I worked downtown I would drive it every day from the southeast side (I live at Camino Seco & Escalante) and we usually go that way to go downtown the rare times we do go out to eat or do other things there. Other than for people on DMAFB I don't see where light or any kind of rail is going to go to on Aviation.

Other comments on recent posts:

Not sure if Pediestrian was joking about having to drive to Tucson for Trader Joe's so people from SW Tucson can drive to Sahuarita for Sprouts. The southwest side of Tucson is fairly impoverished and is an area where there is likely less auto ownership. This is an area that needs services and transit.

Couldn't agree more with ZonaRealtor2021 about the perception that people feel in Tucson they have a Constitutional right to a mountain view. I don't get that idea, especially in downtown/midtown. I have a beautiful view of the Rincons out my backyard and they're building homes right down the street and will be out back of me in the next year or two. I'm much more suburban and have always known and accepted this would happen one day. Such is life. Also agreed with ZonaRealtor2021 about the drive into the city on I-10 and I-19 is ugly. I completely agree but I will say one thing that Tucson (and to be fair Phoenix too) has is the overpasses they've built. First off, there much nicer and newer/cleaner looking than the old exits (think Ina & Prince) and make it look much more inviting and urban. My father lives in Rockford, IL which is about 90 miles west of Chicago. When he comes out here he comments that you would never find the designs and landscaping that you see on the overpasses back in Illinois and how they're kinda cool to see. ZonaRealtor2021 also mentioned Tucson was looking at pulling out of the new RTA? Hadn't heard that and that would not be good for sure.

AZ71 is correct that Grant Road in the spots they mentioned is ugly. Not sure it's the ugliest road in Tucson and it also made me think about the old article in like the 1950s that called Speedway the ugliest street in America.

There was talk about city council and Steve K. from ward 6. One observation I've always had is that there needs to be more wards in Tucson. I think a city of this size is not served right by only 6 wards. The boundaries of these wards are ridiculous. Ward 5 stretches from midtown and just south of downtown all the way down to isolated land south of TIA. Ward 4 is humungous. It goes all the way from 22nd in many places to way south of I-10. The needs of people in Rita Ranch are far different from the people at 22nd & Craycroft.

But, for all the problems of Tucson I do agree I do love it here and I get the idea that we don't want it to be Phoenix. For me though my idea of what that means may be different. I came to Tucson almost 13 years ago from a rural area of Illinois. I like small but want the advantages of large cities too. Phoenix is too big for me and too sprawling. But it's not really that which makes me like Tucson much more. To me, Tucson has a vibe, a character, a soul. I see Phoenix as this large endless sprawl with little to no character. To me there's nothing that unique about it. It exists and it just is. I get not wanting the sprawl and preserving the natural beauty here. I disagree whole-heartedly with the idea of I-11 going through Avra Valley. No need to cause sprawl in this beautiful relatively untouched part of the area. But AZ71 is right. To not build there means expanding I-10 to likely a double decker freeway. So be it. This is the better alternative. The problem was that people didn't want to be Phoenix for growth (not just sprawl) and the mantra seemed to be "If we don't build it, they won't come". Well, they didn't build it and here I (and many others) am. Build logically and responsibly with good infrastructure and services and this city can be even better than it is.

[ZonaRealtor2021]

@Obadno: Yeah I’d say that’s a pretty safe bet, it’s crazy though how they were so far off on those projections in the early 2000‘s when they thought the Tucson metro area would be at 1,800,000 by 2050. I’m kinda glad they where, I don’t want to see the Tucson metro past 1.8 that’s too big for this area not to mention we have many buffers in reservations, a huge military base in the middle of the city, five mountain ranges, and I’m sure the lack of water will really become an issue in the next 10 to 15 years.

It’s crazy to me how big the Phoenix metro area has gotten and the potential growth still to come and how they are just building like we don’t live in a desert not to mention the Las Vegas area as well.. At some point we really need to start thinking about this lack of water thing??? But if you say that people call you anti-growth, anti-business, and small town minded :haha:

[ZonaRealtor2021]

I dont buy that. That Tucson has charm and is being impeded by some buildings. Nonsense. Tucson is growing and the defense and tech industries are out of control. So people can think they live in a small little desert town as they walk to get tacos someplace...but south of the airport we're making nuclear bombs for aviation. There are so many tech industries and now we're a huge distribution hub with 4 Amazon fulfillment centers, Target fulfillment, Home Goods and more. The only thing small about us is our inability to grow our infrastructure around all these big businesses moving in. I mean...we moved the airport tower and facilities and built a new parkway for Raytheon alone.
Ummmmm did you even read my comment?
Where in my comment did I say that Tucson‘s charm is being impeded because buildings are being built?
If you go back and reread it I wrote that Tucson has a chance to be in a class of its own not an imitation of Austin or Portland which in my opinion both lost there charm along time ago (“And let’s be clear-is what brought the growth & attention to those cities in the first place”) subsequently so many of you on this thread want Tucson to be like so bad!

I also said because Tucson is limited in that kind of explosive growth for many factors which you can research yourself the few remaining opportunities we do have left, I hope Tucson does correctly to make Tucson a more prosperous city ( “because we are currently not, I don’t care how many fulfillment centers Amazon puts in or because Raytheon now has there own Parkway making nuclear bombs for aviation”)…
we can become prosperous and business friendly & at the same time keep our unique character and charm which makes Tucson great & not another Phoenix.

Also nobody in this thread thinks Tucson is a small town including myself and I do walk across the street to get tacos ever Tuesday! :yes:

[AZ71]

@Patrick_S - The perfect way to get a freeway to TIA is to take that Aviation extension (I guess they're calling it 210) to not only connect to I-10 (roughly along Alvernon)...but extend it all the way south on Alvernon right by TIA and then connect that with the Sonoran Corridor...and make a new entrance to TIA off Los Reales or Corona Rd. To me that would accomplish it all. And if they do the proposed grade-separated interchanges down Golf Links at minimum to Kolb (preferably all the way to Houghton) then you sort of have a freeway that you can access TIA from a few directions.

@ZonaRealtor2021 - I'm a native and I keep hearing this keep Tucson Tucson phrase and I really don't get it. I often hear it associated with (and I mistakingly assumed you meant) nimby-ism as everyone is opposed to everything being built. No roads, no freeways, height limits on buildings, etc. But honestly...our terrain will never let us be Phx. We have too many mountains that surround us and pockets of neighborhoods, etc that I just dont see how we ever could get that expansion like Phx has....at least in our lifetimes. I'm 100% for keeping Tucson its own thing. To me that means focusing on sustainability, eco-friendly solutions. I'm all for mass transit cause that helps our environment. And although I despise Chuck Huckelberry...I'm glad The Loop was created as its made us recognized and its helped flood control with the river bank enforcements. But I think we sure can do better. I still don't see why we aren't the solar capital of the US. I don't see why we're not luring EV car makers here like Casa Grande got Lucid. I want watershed and rainwater practices built everywhere. I want to pump effluent into all our rivers, not just the Santa Cruz. I want us to find the money to excavate every landfill they put along our rivers and relocate it so we don't endanger our aquifers (which is why more effluent isn't being released into the Santa Cruz.) I would love for Tucson to be that kind of city. I want to stop urban sprawl and build up. "Up, not out". But its that nimby attitude of keeping Tucson something like from the 40s or 50s is what I disagree with. Taller buildings are more efficient. New buildings are too. I think its stupid saving a bunch of old crap buildings on Sunshine Mile when we could be creating a "mile of the future". A new "Miracle Mile" of invention and sustainability and housing. Thats why I'm so pro-building new stuff. And yes...I eat tacos almost daily too. LOL. I didn't mean anything offensive by that. Tacos ARE Tucson!!

And about the Avra Valley thing. I'm not necessarily against it. I don't think it will damage the environment that much if they build it properly...like a depressed freeway with no on/off ramps so it will inhibit any kind of development...and have multiple wildlife crossings. But I see why people still don't want that. So it will inevitably end up staying on I-10. My fear is the city is just not going to accommodate for the increase of freight traffic cause we just dont plan here. And I'm not for a double decker freeway...but I am in favor of an elevated like carpool lane down the center for just that freight traffic with no on/off ramps from about I-10 & I-19 all the way to Marana. So about 25 miles. Something like this they have all over CA. Its really the only solution to me.

https://i.imgur.com/PpPjYQu.png

[InTheBurbs]

@Patrick_S - The perfect way to get a freeway to TIA is to take that Aviation extension (I guess they're calling it 210) to not only connect to I-10 (roughly along Alvernon)...but extend it all the way south on Alvernon right by TIA and then connect that with the Sonoran Corridor...and make a new entrance to TIA off Los Reales or Corona Rd. To me that would accomplish it all. And if they do the proposed grade-separated interchanges down Golf Links at minimum to Kolb (preferably all the way to Houghton) then you sort of have a freeway that you can access TIA from a few directions.

The other alternative to the airport is to get rid of some of the stops and turns on Kino. That was supposed to be a freeway ages ago, and a few more overpasses like they did at 22nd would go a long way to improving that route. Especially if they could do some direct connect from Kino to Tucson Blvd, avoiding those turns, stop lights, and that jog along Benson Highway. And fix up that first mile from the airport to Valencia. Repaving, some more landscaping, etc. would make a big difference in first impressions.

On a related note, TIA is teasing a "Major Air Service Announcement" for tomorrow.

https://twitter.com/TucsonAirport/status/1443368746022756352?s=20

[InTheBurbs]

On a related note, TIA is teasing a "Major Air Service Announcement" for tomorrow.

It looks like it will be Avelo Airlines to Burbank 2-3 times per week starting in December.

https://www.aveloair.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Full-US-Tight-Trim-2048x1169.png

[AZ71]

It looks like it will be Avelo Airlines to Burbank 2-3 times per week starting in December.

https://www.aveloair.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Full-US-Tight-Trim-2048x1169.png

This is absolutely FANTASTIC news! I've been writing and tweeting at them for weeks. And this is amazing news for the film industry as having a direct flight from Burbank (Hollywood) studios to Tucson is a necessary link to maintain and grow the industry.

[AZ71]

This is some good news from County Administrator Chuck Huckelberry. Finally. He's made a transportation recommendation (basically called modeling) that would build a bridge on Sunset Rd over I-10 and connect with River Rd (so you don't have to drive north to Orange Grove or south to Ruthrauff Rd) to get over the freeway.

And after 60 years...he's finally pushing the building of the Snyder Rd Bridge over the Sabino Creek in the Bear Canyon/Tanque Verde area. It's been on the books to be built since the 1960s....and very much needed. I hope the RTA and county listens.

https://webcms.pima.gov/UserFiles/Servers/Server_6/File/Government/Administration/CHHmemosFor%20Web/2021/September/September%2029,%202021%20-%20Transportation%20modeling%20to%20guide%20decision%20making.pdf

https://i.imgur.com/GOvOeSf.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/J4LufRW.png

[juan.x.ito]

This is some good news from County Administrator Chuck Huckelberry. Finally. He's made a transportation recommendation (basically called modeling) that would build a bridge on Sunset Rd over I-10 and connect with River Rd (so you don't have to drive north to Orange Grove or south to Ruthrauff Rd) to get over the freeway.

And after 60 years...he's finally pushing the building of the Snyder Rd Bridge over the Sabino Creek in the Bear Canyon/Tanque Verde area. It's been on the books to be built since the 1960s....and very much needed. I hope the RTA and county listens.

https://webcms.pima.gov/UserFiles/Servers/Server_6/File/Government/Administration/CHHmemosFor%20Web/2021/September/September%2029,%202021%20-%20Transportation%20modeling%20to%20guide%20decision%20making.pdf

https://i.imgur.com/GOvOeSf.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/J4LufRW.png

This is Great News!! I hate having to drive through orange grove everytime i need to get from i-10 to eastbound river.

[Patrick S]

@Patrick_S - The perfect way to get a freeway to TIA is to take that Aviation extension (I guess they're calling it 210) to not only connect to I-10 (roughly along Alvernon)...but extend it all the way south on Alvernon right by TIA and then connect that with the Sonoran Corridor...and make a new entrance to TIA off Los Reales or Corona Rd. To me that would accomplish it all. And if they do the proposed grade-separated interchanges down Golf Links at minimum to Kolb (preferably all the way to Houghton) then you sort of have a freeway that you can access TIA from a few directions.

I like this idea and hadn't really thought about it. This sould really connect the Sonoran Corridor with the main part of the city.

@AZ71 - That bridge over over Sabino Creek is badly needed. The traffic bottlenecks around Grant/Kolb/Tanque Verde Rd. The bridge off of Kolb over the Pantano was nice but this could be what really helps that area out with its heavy traffic load. As for the Sunset Rd. idea, AZDOT is supposed to start work (as of now) on the section of I-10 between Ruthrauff and Ina late next year and are planning to bring Sunset over I-10 (https://azdot.gov/projects/southcentral-district-projects/i-10-reconstruction-between-ruthrauff-and-ina-roads). Extending it to River Road makes sense.

[AZ71]

I like this idea and hadn't really thought about it. This sould really connect the Sonoran Corridor with the main part of the city.

@AZ71 - That bridge over over Sabino Creek is badly needed. The traffic bottlenecks around Grant/Kolb/Tanque Verde Rd. The bridge off of Kolb over the Pantano was nice but this could be what really helps that area out with its heavy traffic load. As for the Sunset Rd. idea, AZDOT is supposed to start work (as of now) on the section of I-10 between Ruthrauff and Ina late next year and are planning to bring Sunset over I-10 (https://azdot.gov/projects/southcentral-district-projects/i-10-reconstruction-between-ruthrauff-and-ina-roads). Extending it to River Road makes sense.

I just dont understand our city planners. I'm no brilliant city planner, but some things just make sense.
This is what I'd do for the Sonoran Corridor connection and TIA entrance. The dark blue is the already decided route of the Sonoran Corridor. The green is what I think they should build. The blue is what is "planned" for the 210 extension and the rumors about the grade-separated intersections on Golf Links.

https://i.imgur.com/fjAYZ6p.jpg

And yes...that Snyder Rd Bridge would help traffic in the Tanque Verde area SO MUCH. But moreso...why cant they just build a bridge over the Pantano Wash connecting Grant Rd directly into Tanque Verde Rd? It would completely eliminate that horrible left turn criss-cross at Grant/Kolb/Tanque Verde. They could do the exact same kind of intersection they did with the Wrightstown overpass at Pantano Rd.

https://i.imgur.com/5bUhyU0.png


And yes...Sunset Rd extension to River is a no-brainer. And since they are right there...they might as well build a bridge over the Rillito River on Camino Del Tiara Rd. Thats where that girl got stuck this past summer and had to be rescued. And its the only road (I'm aware of) where cars dip into the sand bed of the Rillito. That just shouldn't be allowed.

[AZ71]

Meritage Homes just bought a ton of land at Valencia and I-10 to put in a development called Valencia Crossings. Home sizes would be 1327 - 2200 sq feet. My guess is they'll start in the upper 200s.

https://realestatedaily-news.com/meritage-homes-launches-valencia-crossing-in-tucson/

https://i.imgur.com/lSUyEwb.png