Tucson Development Thread

[InTheBurbs]

Doesn't appear Frontier does that route. I'm quite upset with Avelo too. That lasted 25 days before they pulled out. They didn't even give Tucson a chance. Frustrating.

Avelo hasn't had much success in the west. They announced and then dropped a few cities before service even started.

According to the TIA website, Frontier service to Vegas ends today, March 4.

[AZ71]

Avelo hasn't had much success in the west. They announced and then dropped a few cities before service even started.

According to the TIA website, Frontier service to Vegas ends today, March 4.

Isn't it said if a destination is under an hour's flight the better solution is to build a high speed rail to those locations. That would link us with Phx, Vegas, LA & San Diego in an amazing big loop.

[InTheBurbs]

Telsa is opening a dealership and service center this summer at 5001 N. Oracle Road.

https://tucson.com/news/local/subscriber/tesla-is-opening-its-first-tucson-dealership-and-service-center/article_98ff4194-98c4-11ec-9cea-fb3a2a96debe.html#tracking-source=home-top-story

https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/tucson.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/9/14/9147be5a-9b34-11ec-840f-3fc342a76dad/62212c73953ee.image.png?resize=750%2C398
Image: G Squared Architecture

[juan.x.ito]

They're having a couple meetings about it this weekend.

https://tucsonnorte-sur.com

MEETINGS are on
FRIDAY - ARMORY PARK - 5-7 PM
SATURDAY - FRANK DE LA CRUZ-EL PUEBLO LIBRARY - 10 AM -12 PM
SATURDAY - LIMBERLOST PARK - 2-4 PM

[ZonaRealtor2021]

Is it me or has downtown progress really stalled the last year
No big announcements, no real new construction, no real major employment news coming into town, not even logistics or warehouses near the port of Tucson or airport.
All the momentum is in the Phoenix metro area with spill over into Pinal County.

I keep on jumping back-and-forth to the Albuquerque thread and see all the construction that is going on up there we are usually compared to them but it seems like they are leaps and bounds ahead of us in new construction projects! :shrug::uhh:

[ProfessorMole]

Is it me or has downtown progress really stalled the last year
No big announcements, no real new construction, no real major employment news coming into town, not even logistics or warehouses near the port of Tucson or airport.
All the momentum is in the Phoenix metro area with spill over into Pinal County.

I keep on jumping back-and-forth to the Albuquerque thread and see all the construction that is going on up there we are usually compared to them but it seems like they are leaps and bounds ahead of us in new construction projects! :shrug::uhh:

Logistics/Warehouse growth is going on in Marana right now. Two new large distro centers (1.3M sqft (https://maranaegov.com/eTRAKiT/viewAttachment.aspx?Group=PROJECT&ActivityNo=DPP2202-001&key=SH1:2203141203330001) and 948k sqft (https://maranaegov.com/eTRAKiT/viewAttachment.aspx?Group=PROJECT&ActivityNo=DPP2202-002&key=SH1:2203141218150001)) recently started submittals. Speculation is that the larger one might be another Amazon distro. Same developer (Vantrust Real Estate) as the one off Corona and the design photo has the larger blue line along the top of the building in the sketches. Here's a comparison of Van Trust's own photo of their facility next to the new submission.

https://i.ibb.co/xSQLbry/bd5baf75-1a84-462e-af19-348910456916.png (https://ibb.co/VW89Gkd)https://i.ibb.co/5szPCNj/ff5a8933-c4d9-43a6-92ac-f6ff8f263f6e.png (https://imgbb.com/)

[Obadno]

Tucson is still an old school Arizona place. The local leadership isnt always the easiest or most welcoming to deal with from an outsider perspective.

So they can build in Tucson or an hour up the 10 in Casa Grande or Phoenix where it will be less hassle.

[Azstar]

Tucson is still an old school Arizona place. The local leadership isnt always the easiest or most welcoming to deal with from an outsider perspective.

So they can build in Tucson or an hour up the 10 in Casa Grande or Phoenix where it will be less hassle.

Don't know if this is true, or not, but very few out of state companies who relocate to Arizona move to Tucson. I would say 98% establish themselves in the Phoenix metro area. And there is 0 demand for office space or retail space in downtown Tucson. All new development now is hotels, apartment complexes, and restaurants.

[Locofresh55]

Don't know if this is true, or not, but very few out of state companies who relocate to Arizona move to Tucson. I would say 98% establish themselves in the Phoenix metro area. And there is 0 demand for office space or retail space in downtown Tucson. All new development now is hotels, apartment complexes, and restaurants.

You're correct. Most of these companies know that Phoenix and now Casa Grande will play ball and work these development deals for an abundance of land. It continues to make Phoenix more attractive to these companies. Tucson tends to balk at these proposals from time to time (not always, but time to time for sure it happens). I'm actually surprised to see Amazon building as much as they have/are building. NIMBYs here in Tucson want their dark sky and their mountain views so that will always play a factor along with the city council wanting to go to the well of local developers because...reasons.

Kind of a shame that a metro area of 1 million has so many small town minded NIMBY's that think U of A and Nature are what should rule Tucson.

[somethingfast]

I grew up in Tucson in the 80's and spent quite a bit of time there in 90's and into 2000's and I can tell you it's always been the same there - very anti-growth and just plain resistant to meaningful change. People always said once the blue hairs died off things would change...they haven't. Tucson is anti-Phoenix and happy to stagnate economically. It's sad bc this attitude is not helpful to long-term prospects of younger generations. I don't see this cult of personality changing unfortunately. Tucson is a good place to retire (if you can) but otherwise...

[Locofresh55]

I grew up in Tucson in the 80's and spent quite a bit of time there in 90's and into 2000's and I can tell you it's always been the same there - very anti-growth and just plain resistant to meaningful change. People always said once the blue hairs died off things would change...they haven't. Tucson is anti-Phoenix and happy to stagnate economically. It's sad bc this attitude is not helpful to long-term prospects of younger generations. I don't see this cult of personality changing unfortunately. Tucson is a good place to retire (if you can) but otherwise...

This whole "We're not trying to be Phoenix" mindset is so played out. It is being used as a crutch to justify being NIMBY. It is the same with the "I need my mountain views" mindset. People were complaining about the downtown links extension disturbing the serenity and quietness of Iron Horse neighborhood and that there was no need for this bypass because I-10 was "close enough". It is a shame that we are stuck in this vicious cycle. We don't need to be Phoenix, but we can certainly modernize our city so we aren't stuck in the 70s and 80s.

[AZ71]

Problem is the city is cheap too. When they have projects they do them half-assed. Most everyone wants a streetcar extension from TIA to Tucson Mall but they'll end up adding busses. They want an extension down Broadway but then they widen the road without adding it. Nimby attitudes rule the town. The city council backs down and now height limits are in place along Broadway. I dont get it. We keep electing different people in power positions but the same results are still had. Doesn't matter republican or democrat. We had a republican mayor for 8 years prior to Rothschild and I cant say anything changes. Its a mess.

[somethingfast]

^ Both of you are spot on. I don't see a solution. It's an ideology that's ingrained in the cultural psychology of Tucson. I think there is an undercurrent of real corruption in Tucson too. Nothing happens without the Lopez's, DeConcinis, Grijalvas and Clicks approving it and they protect their interests first. I don't know how real that still is but I suspect it's still alive and well. Tucson has absolutely squandered its proximity to Mexico in so many ways since NAFTA (like it or hate it) was established...very happy to hand off the rewards to Phoenix, San Diego and El Paso it seems.

[Obadno]

Tucson has absolutely squandered its proximity to Mexico in so many ways since NAFTA (like it or hate it) was established...very happy to hand off the rewards to Phoenix, San Diego and El Paso it seems.

I have to agree here, Tucson and Nogales should be Import/Export and Transpiration hubs. Mexico is only going to continue to grow as a manufacturing center hopefully Tucson can get out of its own way and take advantage of that.

[andrewsaturn]

I agree with everyone’s thoughts about the economic culture. Every once in awhile there’s news of a new corporation coming to town but not compared to other cities. I think there is a strong anti big growth by some people. And these people are very proactive and make themselves known in meetings etc. Overall, I think most of us want to see more significant changes. I think we are trying though. I never would have thought the streetcar would be approved. We almost got a new high rise in DT if the lenders didn’t pull out. And the extension of aviation is being built. It’s frustrating things move at a snail’s pace. I think Rio Nuevo is a good thing but they are only reactive vs proactive.

[andrewsaturn]

Speaking of which, Fletcher Mccusker says they have the resources to clear the landfill at A mountain. (~23.00 in the link). Not sure when this will be done. This will help with the current reclaimed water flow of the Santa Cruz river and allow more water to be released.

https://www.buckmastershow.com/2022/02/25/buckmaster-show-2-25-2022-downtown-tucson-update/

[AZ71]

I agree with everyone’s thoughts about the economic culture. Every once in awhile there’s news of a new corporation coming to town but not compared to other cities. I think there is a strong anti big growth by some people. And these people are very proactive and make themselves known in meetings etc. Overall, I think most of us want to see more significant changes. I think we are trying though. I never would have thought the streetcar would be approved. We almost got a new high rise in DT if the lenders didn’t pull out. And the extension of aviation is being built. It’s frustrating things move at a snail’s pace. I think Rio Nuevo is a good thing but they are only reactive vs proactive.

I'm not sure how hard we are trying. They might be extending Aviation Parkway on the north end but its not the freeway they initially planned. It just going to be another road with traffic lights. And it doesn't really connect with I-10. You'll have to take the St. Mary's offramp, turn left to get on it. They changed the intersection of it at Broadway to save money so its more basic now with lights. So once again...they half-assed the concept and its not going to help much at all. They cant even get the approval going for the south end of it to extend and connect to I-10 which they've been talking about for years.

About the skyscraper, I've been following up on that. I knew the minute JDunn pulled out that it was over. It should have always been a residential tower and not office space. Covid destroyed its prospects as businesses tanked. I've contacted Rio and Peach Properties about it and apparently its not dead. But they still want it to be office space which is moronic at this point in time.

Rio Nuevo has been good for downtown. But they aren't proactive like you said. They're reactive. They wait for people to come to them. They should be on the phone with every out-of-city and out-of-state developer trying to fill these parcels up downtown. But they don't do it. And they always use the same 3 developers for everything who can never complete a project. Its also been 2 years since the arena site was supposed to have something on it or they would be paid $2.5M. So whats happened with that? Apparently its in court for who knows how long. I have the AZ Star looking into it.

I think our town is lazy. They're scared of growing for that ridiculous fear of becoming Phx so all the business opportunities stay in Phx or Casa Grande now. I really dont know if the city has an economic development plan at all. Where is the Sonoran Freeway? 5 years for a study and no money right now for a Tier 2 study. That entire region will be filled in with home developments and then they wont be able to build one at all. The same problem when they kept proposing our crosstown freeway in the 60s and then the 80s. Now its impossible because there is too much growth. It'd be close to a billion dollars.

I dont understand this city.

[AZ71]

Speaking of which, Fletcher Mccusker says they have the resources to clear the landfill at A mountain. (~23.00 in the link). Not sure when this will be done. This will help with the current reclaimed water flow of the Santa Cruz river and allow more water to be released.

https://www.buckmastershow.com/2022/02/25/buckmaster-show-2-25-2022-downtown-tucson-update/

I'm also learning you cant trust what McCusker says. He has so many points just wrong. I listened to that interview too when it aired. He also said that new senior 8 story building from HSL will go in to the west of the new Hyatt they're working on. Thats incorrect. Its to the east of it wedged between the Hyatt and The Flin. There still are no plans for the corner of Broadway and Granada. Maybe its time for a new leader of Rio Nuevo. The fact they let the Flin be built on that location and use so much real estate for a complex that only has 246 apts was a huge disservice to downtown Tucson and the TCC. La Placita was ugly as crap...but it was the right idea having stores, shops and restaurants for the TCC folks to walk to. Now the convention center has NOTHING even close to it. Where are folks supposed to eat? Stupid move.

[Azstar]

I'm also learning you cant trust what McCusker says. He has so many points just wrong. I listened to that interview too when it aired. He also said that new senior 8 story building from HSL will go in to the west of the new Hyatt they're working on. Thats incorrect. Its to the east of it wedged between the Hyatt and The Flin. There still are no plans for the corner of Broadway and Granada. Maybe its time for a new leader of Rio Nuevo. The fact they let the Flin be built on that location and use so much real estate for a complex that only has 246 apts was a huge disservice to downtown Tucson and the TCC. La Placita was ugly as crap...but it was the right idea having stores, shops and restaurants for the TCC folks to walk to. Now the convention center has NOTHING even close to it. Where are folks supposed to eat? Stupid move.

Fletcher McCusker saved Rio Nuevo and has made significant progress, although it may not be what you would like to see. Maybe you forgot that when the city council was in charge of it they squandered $100M on an expensive architects design for a bridge that crossed I-10, and one (or more) city council member voted in favor of a Sonoran Desert aquariam "to bring tourists downtown."

[AZ71]

Fletcher McCusker saved Rio Nuevo and has made significant progress, although it may not be what you would like to see. Maybe you forgot that when the city council was in charge of it they squandered $100M on an expensive architects design for a bridge that crossed I-10, and one (or more) city council member voted in favor of a Sonoran Desert aquariam "to bring tourists downtown."

Actually I was in favor of both!!! The bridge would have brought some notoriety to the city and it was in part with the UofA which would have had the gem & mineral museum as part of it. And the Desert Aquarium WAS a fantastic idea! Another tourist attraction! But no...guess what...OdySea ended up in Scottsdale and now they're reaping the lucrative benefits.

[combusean]

That $100M bridge would have been a lot better than the $750M they've spent nothing on instead.

[AZ71]

That $100M bridge would have been a lot better than the $750M they've spent nothing on instead.

Rio Nuevo's contribution to the Sunshine Mile was a huge waste of money. It wasn't needed. The expansion of the road (and the city should have extended the streetcar down the center) would have been enough to spur growth along that route. They didn't need to add money to that project. All the city should have done was change the zoning laws to allow greater height.

[azliam]

Here's a link to some of the past proposed projects that never went anywhere:
http://tiboaz.biz/2016/02/09/some-of-downtown-tucsons-past-proposed-mega-projects-that-never-happened/

I actually liked the Rainbow bridge and wish it had happened.

[Azstar]

I actually liked the Rainbow bridge and wish it had happened.

It's called a boondoggle.

noun
a wasteful and worthless project undertaken for political, corporate, or personal gain, typically a government project funded by taxpayers:

[azliam]

It's called a boondoggle.

noun
a wasteful and worthless project undertaken for political, corporate, or personal gain, typically a government project funded by taxpayers:

That has absolutely nothing to do with me wishing it had happened.

[somethingfast]

my two cents? since these are pie in the sky (for Tucson) proposals...i would almost ALWAYS pick a bona fide new hi-rise over artsy fartsy stuff no matter how cool the artsy thing is. either one of those old hotel proposals would look fantastic against the modest current skyline. ho-hum maybe someday something gets built in Tucson again...going on 40 years guys since anything over 10 stories has been built...really pretty sad

[AZ71]

my two cents? since these are pie in the sky (for Tucson) proposals...i would almost ALWAYS pick a bona fide new hi-rise over artsy fartsy stuff no matter how cool the artsy thing is. either one of those old hotel proposals would look fantastic against the modest current skyline. ho-hum maybe someday something gets built in Tucson again...going on 40 years guys since anything over 10 stories has been built...really pretty sad

You can thank Steve Kozachik (who just got re-elected in Ward 6) for shutting down those two high-rise hotels. At the time he was very anti-hotel downtown or having one company with so many rooms.

[somethingfast]

You can thank Steve Kozachik (who just got re-elected in Ward 6) for shutting down those two high-rise hotels. At the time he was very anti-hotel downtown or having one company with so many rooms.

yeah well he's obviously a total idiot if that is his rationale. competition is a GOOD thing, almost always. he clearly was paid off by a don diamond character to oppose those. yeah, hundreds of jobs and more rooms is such a bad thing for Tucson... :koko:

[Locofresh55]

yeah well he's obviously a total idiot if that is his rationale. competition is a GOOD thing, almost always. he clearly was paid off by a don diamond character to oppose those. yeah, hundreds of jobs and more rooms is such a bad thing for Tucson... :koko:

Kozachik has been very vocal in opposition to the high rises near U of A. His mindset is that anything above 6 stories is too tall for Tucson.

But people in his ward are ok with him so they keep voting for the usual suspects.

That Sheraton hotel was one of my favorite proposals back in the day.....looking at where the Doubletree is at now....they could have done the same with the Sheraton....at the least they could have done a scaled down version and have it sit at about 15-16 stories.....I feel like the 75 E Broadway was our last hope for a decently tall building. :shrug:

[AZ71]

Kozachik has been very vocal in opposition to the high rises near U of A. His mindset is that anything above 6 stories is too tall for Tucson.

But people in his ward are ok with him so they keep voting for the usual suspects.

That Sheraton hotel was one of my favorite proposals back in the day.....looking at where the Doubletree is at now....they could have done the same with the Sheraton....at the least they could have done a scaled down version and have it sit at about 15-16 stories.....I feel like the 75 E Broadway was our last hope for a decently tall building. :shrug:

Apparently the 75 E Broadway project isn't entirely dead. I talked to Swaim Associates and they said its not dead and Rio Nuevo has said the same thing without specifics. So probably it means years away. However I always felt it should have been a residential tower with hotel rather than office space. It was that office space that tanked the project as the east coast financers got cold feet wondering how businesses would be in a post-covid world.

Steve Kozachik also messed with the Broadway expansion, reducing it from 3 lanes to 2 lanes and helped reduce the building heights along the entire corridor. I have no idea why people voted him back in.

[somethingfast]

Steve Kozachik also messed with the Broadway expansion, reducing it from 3 lanes to 2 lanes and helped reduce the building heights along the entire corridor. I have no idea why people voted him back in.

...because people in Tucson evidently want things to stay just the way they are

[ZonaRealtor2021]

Apparently the 75 E Broadway project isn't entirely dead. I talked to Swaim Associates and they said its not dead and Rio Nuevo has said the same thing without specifics. So probably it means years away. However I always felt it should have been a residential tower with hotel rather than office space. It was that office space that tanked the project as the east coast financers got cold feet wondering how businesses would be in a post-covid world.

Steve Kozachik also messed with the Broadway expansion, reducing it from 3 lanes to 2 lanes and helped reduce the building heights along the entire corridor. I have no idea why people voted him back in.
I wouldn’t trust anything Swaim says about 75 E Broadway when they came up with that god awful ridiculous design :yuck::koko:

[juan.x.ito]

An interesting article. I don't know how much of this I should believe.

https://www.kold.com/2022/03/24/downtown-tucson-development-back-pre-pandemic-levels/

[andrewsaturn]

An interesting article. I don't know how much of this I should believe.

https://www.kold.com/2022/03/24/downtown-tucson-development-back-pre-pandemic-levels/

I wouldn’t believe it until dirt actually starts moving. Did anyone listen to the RN meeting? I couldn’t unfortunately.

[andrewsaturn]

Kozachik has been very vocal in opposition to the high rises near U of A. His mindset is that anything above 6 stories is too tall for Tucson.

But people in his ward are ok with him so they keep voting for the usual suspects.

That Sheraton hotel was one of my favorite proposals back in the day.....looking at where the Doubletree is at now....they could have done the same with the Sheraton....at the least they could have done a scaled down version and have it sit at about 15-16 stories.....I feel like the 75 E Broadway was our last hope for a decently tall building. :shrug:

75 e broadway is still alive :haha:

[Locofresh55]

75 e broadway is still alive :haha:

As in...it's on life support?? They need to make a push to make this an iconic building. I read the KOLD article and I have this sinking feeling like this will be a 5-6 story hotel with same type of shops we see throughout Tucson. I know the article still calls 75 E Broadway a 19 story building....but I'm not holding my breath. Sorry for the naysaying but Rio Nuevo seems to have bigger hype for smaller projects and a "meh" attitude for the potentially bigger and attention grabbing projects. I'm guessing this is because the smaller projects are low hanging fruit. I'm not getting the warm and fuzzy for 75 E Broadway or the Ronstandt project...again....Tucson is in that precarious position and it is a tough pill to swallow. Here's hoping something good will come from these proposals.

[andrewsaturn]

As in...it's on life support?? They need to make a push to make this an iconic building. I read the KOLD article and I have this sinking feeling like this will be a 5-6 story hotel with same type of shops we see throughout Tucson. I know the article still calls 75 E Broadway a 19 story building....but I'm not holding my breath. Sorry for the naysaying but Rio Nuevo seems to have bigger hype for smaller projects and a "meh" attitude for the potentially bigger and attention grabbing projects. I'm guessing this is because the smaller projects are low hanging fruit. I'm not getting the warm and fuzzy for 75 E Broadway or the Ronstandt project...again....Tucson is in that precarious position and it is a tough pill to swallow. Here's hoping something good will come from these proposals.

I’m going off the article as well. I honestly hoped we would go with another developer and start new. That spot is too prime for anything less than 15 stories but we are all damaged from underwhelming projects downtown etc. so who knows.

[AZ71]

I’m going off the article as well. I honestly hoped we would go with another developer and start new. That spot is too prime for anything less than 15 stories but we are all damaged from underwhelming projects downtown etc. so who knows.

Peach Properties is just one of the worst companies for execution. There just aren't many developers that can follow through. They dont have the money connections.

I spoke with an out-of-state developer about the property. (I consistently email developers in other cities that are building large structures to consider Tucson) and I brought up 75 E Broadway. He said honestly, that project is doomed. If others see that financers fell out, they wont only question Tucson but also the development. He said its sometimes more hurtful when proposed projects die.

Apparently the city still wants to give Marcel Dabdoub the first bid on this parcel even though I've pleaded with Rio Nuevo to please create an SFQ for the site and market it to out-of-state developers. I just dont think anyone is really doing the leg work that needs to be done to get things built. They think just being in a TIF zone people will flock to them. Clearly thats not happening.

I don't suspect 75 E, Rondstadt or The Opus will ever be built. I also think HSL will flub again not only with the Hotel AZ and their ill-placed senior citizen 8 story building...but moreso the huge opportunity to build something grand on Broadway and Granada where the old garage once stood. It'll end up being just another ugly Flin type building even though I personally have sent dozens of emails & ideas of other buildings and structures that would compliment the area. I never get a response.

[andrewsaturn]

I don't suspect 75 E, Rondstadt or The Opus will ever be built. I also think HSL will flub again not only with the Hotel AZ and their ill-placed senior citizen 8 story building...but moreso the huge opportunity to build something grand on Broadway and Granada where the old garage once stood. It'll end up being just another ugly Flin type building even though I personally have sent dozens of emails & ideas of other buildings and structures that would compliment the area. I never get a response.

I think that if 75 E Broadway is re-evaluated as a ground floor for retail, several levels of parking, and the rest as residential then it will be financed and come out of the ashes. Housing market is hot enough for it. How tall it is will be in question.

[andrewsaturn]

Recap from real estate daily news on recent RN meeting.

https://realestatedaily-news.com/rio-nuevo-board-advances-unique-downtown-projects-plans-to-expand-the-sunshine-mile-and-new-board-member-introduced/

-New board member introduced
- McCusker says downtown sales tax are back to pre-pandemic levels
-They have lots of interest for more hotel and restaurants. (…They should really focus on getting HSL to complete Hotel Arizona first)

Also, I’m really happy with what they’re doing with Solot Plaza and Friedman Block along Broadway. If we can get a stretch of local business and restaurants it be greatly received from the community and visitors.

[AZ71]

I think that if 75 E Broadway is re-evaluated as a ground floor for retail, several levels of parking, and the rest as residential then it will be financed and come out of the ashes. Housing market is hot enough for it. How tall it is will be in question.

I asked both Swaim and Dabdoub about that and they said they still want office and there was already residential in the plan anyways.

This is why we need better developers. Ones that can deliver. It shouldn't have taken another full year for them to find another financer when residential towers are going up right and left in the Phx area and even student housing by UofA.

[ZonaRealtor2021]

������

[ZonaRealtor2021]

I asked both Swaim and Dabdoub about that and they said they still want office and there was already residential in the plan anyways.

This is why we need better developers. Ones that can deliver. It shouldn't have taken another full year for them to find another financer when residential towers are going up right and left in the Phx area and even student housing by UofA.

Did they by chance mention to you that the project is for sure back on?

I wish they would think big and really try to make it the cities tallest & pass the 400 foot mark.

[AZ71]

Did they by chance mention to you that the project is for sure back on?

I wish they would think big and really try to make it the cities tallest & pass the 400 foot mark.

They told me quote "it is not dead"....whatever that means. So I assume it means they're still looking for financers. But I wish they'd go back to the drawing board and create something more architecturally significant.

I don't know why they wont go taller. I've stated the marketing benefits of being able to call their building the tallest. I even suggested they only use half of the parcel (which is huge city block btw) and go higher...or stairstep design it so we can at least get to 331ft (one foot taller than One South Church).

Maybe it has something to do with the materials. Maybe it'll be all wood poured concrete where you can only build so high, where traditional skyscrapers are steel. But can you imagine being able to have a skybar or restaurant on the top level with unobstructed views? Perfect viewing of A mountain fireworks on July 4th. Amazing sunsets....and the media publicity surrounding it since we haven't changed our skyline in 35 years.

Honestly, my gut says its dead even if they say it isn't.

[somethingfast]

So I assume it means they're still looking for financers.

I'm sorry but isn't this what Rio Nuevo was for??? Financing??? Or was it all just grift ???

[crzyabe]

I'm sorry but isn't this what Rio Nuevo was for??? Financing??? Or was it all just grift ???

the Rio Nuevo organization redirects sales tax income generated within the district to projects within the district. This tax income would have gone into state coffers and most likely not used within the district.

The Board is granted theses funds to distribute to projects that occur within the district. The Projects must increase the tax revenue at the site and must present projections that show as much. This is why housing, parks and other projects that do not drive sales tax are usually not included.

This is a simplification, but that is a overview. Many projects within the district would not have happened without Rio Nuevo backing and funding. Are there issues? Sure, but for the most part I see the latest iteration of Rio Nuevo as being a benefit to the community.

[somethingfast]

the Rio Nuevo organization redirects sales tax income generated within the district to projects within the district. This tax income would have gone into state coffers and most likely not used within the district.

The Board is granted theses funds to distribute to projects that occur within the district. The Projects must increase the tax revenue at the site and must present projections that show as much. This is why housing, parks and other projects that do not drive sales tax are usually not included.

This is a simplification, but that is a overview. Many projects within the district would not have happened without Rio Nuevo backing and funding. Are there issues? Sure, but for the most part I see the latest iteration of Rio Nuevo as being a benefit to the community.

All that may be true...and I hope it is...but I suspect large amounts of taxpayer funds have been siphoned as for-fee "study" work that would never reasonably result in an actual project. That's what I mean by grift.

[crzyabe]

All that may be true...and I hope it is...but I suspect large amounts of taxpayer funds have been siphoned as for-fee "study" work that would never reasonably result in an actual project. That's what I mean by grift.

The Rio Nuevo from the late 90s and early OOs is not the same organization. I feel this iteration is financially responsible. I am not aware of RN funds being used for studies in many years. Many of the financial project studies that are presented are funded by the group representing the project and not RN

You can see their ledger with each expense here:https://rionuevo.org/documents/finances/expense-ledger/

[AZ71]

I just heard that Marcel Dabdoub, developer of the 75 E Broadway project, says the commercial office space is still a hard sell holding up the project. But he adds it’s required by the construction contract.

So change the construction contract to a full residential tower or start over. :shrug:

[somethingfast]

I just heard that Marcel Dabdoub, developer of the 75 E Broadway project, says the commercial office space is still a hard sell holding up the project. But he adds it’s required by the construction contract.

So change the construction contract to a full residential tower or start over. :shrug:

how can 3-6 stories (original design i think) of office space be a hard sell in a mixed-use tower with 10 floors of retail in a DT that has virtually no new Class A office space in, what, 20 years??? head-scratching as usual... :koko:

[somethingfast]

The Rio Nuevo from the late 90s and early OOs is not the same organization. I feel this iteration is financially responsible. I am not aware of RN funds being used for studies in many years. Many of the financial project studies that are presented are funded by the group representing the project and not RN

You can see their ledger with each expense here:https://rionuevo.org/documents/finances/expense-ledger/

you sound like you've done the due diligence so i will trust your research...i really hope you're right!

[Azstar]

how can 3-6 stories (original design i think) of office space be a hard sell in a mixed-use tower with 10 floors of retail in a DT that has virtually no new Class A office space in, what, 20 years??? head-scratching as usual... :koko:

There is currently 0 demand for office space downtown, and there hasn't been for many many years. No developer is going to risk millions of dollars to build a tall structure or office structure just because some people want it.

[somethingfast]

There is currently 0 demand for office space downtown, and there hasn't been for many many years. No developer is going to risk millions of dollars to build a tall structure or office structure just because some people want it.

yes but isn't the whole point of RN to go "find" demand - i.e., go get another Caterpillar to move to Tucson to increase demand? isn't that the point of it? to creatively manufacture a renaissance (people and work) in downtown??? maybe i'm wrong...

[combusean]

Caterpillar located to Tucson because there was already a reason for them to be there: a long local history with mining and proximity to regional operations and suppliers. That probably would have happened without Rio Nuevo but the subsidy was just icing on the cake.

I don't know how much of this (https://www.picor.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Tucson_Americas_Alliance_MarketBeat_Office_Q42021.pdf) is to be believed (6M sqft in downtown tucson?!) but 3% is beyond full for office and the submarket should have *something* on the horizon.

[AZ71]

There is currently 0 demand for office space downtown, and there hasn't been for many many years. No developer is going to risk millions of dollars to build a tall structure or office structure just because some people want it.

Agree. There is zero demand downtown for office space because most new businesses moving to the region are building their own buildings in the plethora of shovel-ready tech and industrial parks the city is constructing for them. ie: The Bridges, The UA Tech Park, Raytheon, Research Loop Industrial Park.

Rio Nuevo and the City of Tucson are out of their minds if they think businesses are going to move into downtown because they think its "cool". Keep downtown as an entertainment venue focusing on residential and it has a chance. Thats why they should focus on residential towers and build some sort of arena downtown on the Nor-Gen Arena site.

Catepillar only moved downtown because we gave them gobs of cash to move there.

[crzyabe]

My organization is thriving, yet we have zero need for office space in the foreseeable future. In fact we are talking, long term, about offloading some of what we have.

Work from home, remote working, and hybrid working are here to stay and this will probably have an impact on commercial real estate, especially in markets like Tucson.

[somethingfast]

I don't know how much of this (https://www.picor.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Tucson_Americas_Alliance_MarketBeat_Office_Q42021.pdf) is to be believed (6M sqft in downtown tucson?!) but 3% is beyond full for office and the submarket should have *something* on the horizon.

The three largest buildings in downtown Tucson are less than 1M sq ft total (around 600k I think) so 6M total sq ft seems really high unless that is ALL inventory (retail and office) but even then it seems high. Cushman is pretty reliable obviously but, yea, these stats (esp. 3% vacancy) seems wildly off...

[InTheBurbs]

Some good news on the airline front...

Canadian airline to launch winter nonstop flights from Tucson (https://tucson.com/news/local/business/canadian-airline-to-launch-winter-nonstop-flights-from-tucson/article_97f9b89e-aebb-11ec-976d-dbedebed6de7.html)

Flair Airlines announcing twice-weekly, seasonal non-stop service to Tucson from Edmonton and Fort McMurray, Alberta, and weekly from Lethbridge, Alberta; Prince George, BC; and Windsor, Ontario starting in November or December.

According to the TAA, Tucson will be the only US destination from four of those airports (excluding Edmonton, I assume).

[Azstar]

Some good news on the airline front...

Canadian airline to launch winter nonstop flights from Tucson (https://tucson.com/news/local/business/canadian-airline-to-launch-winter-nonstop-flights-from-tucson/article_97f9b89e-aebb-11ec-976d-dbedebed6de7.html)

Flair Airlines announcing twice-weekly, seasonal non-stop service to Tucson from Edmonton and Fort McMurray, Alberta, and weekly from Lethbridge, Alberta; Prince George, BC; and Windsor, Ontario starting in November or December.

According to the TAA, Tucson will be the only US destination from four of those airports (excluding Edmonton, I assume).

Naturally, I would like this service to be successful, but Tucson has not had much luck with nonstop service to obscure cities. Over the past few years Tucson has had, and lost, nonstop service to Bellingham, Wa; Sacramento, Ontario, Ca; San Jose, Ca; most recently Burbank, Ca; Provo, UT; Austin, Tx; Hermosillo, Mx; in addition to nonstop flights to Indianapolis, Newark, JFK, Washington Dulles, and Charlotte.

[combusean]

^ Most of those airports in the "obscure" category are busier than TIA and half are either principal airports or busy relievers of much larger ones.

[andrewsaturn]

Recent meeting from the City of Tucson Infill Incentive District (IID) design review committee regarding the Bautista.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq2VbeOOOTc&t=4150s

- single story parking garage, 256 Units of housing, commercial, restaurant, and connectivity to the Santa Cruz river.
- proposition to increase the height from 40 to 60 ft.
- IID approved design for the Bautista.
(Not sure when construction is expected to begin)

https://i.imgur.com/71MECE7.png
https://i.imgur.com/Kb9CAPE.png
https://i.imgur.com/g6wE6Mm.png
https://i.imgur.com/wiELtAj.png

[southtucsonboy77]

7-Story Mid-Rise Self-Storage facility coming to Grant/I-10 (https://realestatedaily-news.com/one-of-a-kind-7-story-mid-rise-self-storage-facility-coming-to-grant-i-10-in-tucson/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=one-of-a-kind-7-story-mid-rise-self-storage-facility-coming-to-grant-i-10-in-tucson&utm_source=MadMimi&utm_medium=email&utm_content=We+do+the+Research+-+You+do+the+Deals%21&utm_campaign=20220329_m167191212_We+Do+The+Research+-+You+Do+The+Deals%21&utm_term=One-of-a-Kind+7-Story+Mid-Rise+Self+Storage+Facility+Coming+to+Grant+_26+I-10+in+Tucson)

[Locofresh55]

https://realestatedaily-news.com/gateway-century-12-theater-sells-for-4-million-for-self-storage-conversion/

TUCSON, ARIZONA -- The former Gateway Century 12 Theater at 770 N. Kolb Road, sold to developer, Verdad Real Estate & Construction Services for $4 million ($88 PSF).

The 45,556-square-foot building on 6-acres, located south of Speedway, will be redeveloped into a 2-story, climate controlled self-storage facility with approximately 680 storage units.

The buyer plans to add a second story to the 12-screen theater and make the building closer to 90,000-square-foot for the self-storage facility being branded as Extra Storage.

Greg Furrier, a retail broker with Cushman & Wakefield | Picor represented the seller, Texas-based, Century Theatres.

The buyer, Verdad Real Estate & Construction Services is a leading full-service real estate developer and construction services team with nationwide experience based in New Orleans. From site selection to store opening, Verdad specializes in build-to-suit development, funding 100% of its projects. No matter the scope, its comprehensive program meets clients’ needs. Verdad’s team manages the entire process from kick-off to closeout and beyond.

Verdad is currently developing another Extra Space Self-Storage at the former Southwest University of Visual Arts, 2538 N Country Club Road in Tucson, as permits have been applied for a 90,000-square-foot, single story, facility with about the same number 680 climate-controlled units.

“We really like Tucson a lot," said James Montgomery, the self-storage project manager at Verdad Real Estate. "With two projects underway for self-storage, we also have a retail group looking for restaurant re-development opportunities in Tucson.”

[andrewsaturn]

22nd/Alvernon infill development for the vacant land next to Dutch Bros.

Developers: CVP 22nd frontage LLC.

Business: 1412 sq ft. Drive-thru lube and oil facility with Automotive minor service and repair use and also a 1800 sq ft retail/office building.

https://i.imgur.com/NDFdkRU.png

[andrewsaturn]

Campbell and Speedway project which includes a 20 story building at the NW corner is apparently not dead and is currently in strong negotiations with developers according to ADS article (Credit: Tim Steller of ADS).

What would you like to see as an anchor tenant at this corner?

https://i.imgur.com/tGYMEuW.png

[AZ71]

Campbell and Speedway project which includes a 20 story building at the NW corner is apparently not dead and is currently in strong negotiations with developers according to ADS article.

What would you like to see as an anchor tenant at this corner?

https://i.imgur.com/tGYMEuW.png

I would take it with a grain of salt. Tucson is known for having big ideas but no follow through. But if something were to go in...I think that area is in need of grocery store/pharmacy type store. I read an idea that one of those smaller urban Target Express stores could be ideal...and it could. Most UofA students have to go to El Con to go to Target. This would be a lot more convenient and its on the trolley line.

But dont hold your breathe on this being built. If anything, it'll end up a 4-6 story mixed use building with a Starbucks and T-Mobile store. Thats about the extent any developer can financially pull off.

[xymox]

I would take it with a grain of salt. Tucson is known for having big ideas but no follow through. But if something were to go in...I think that area is in need of grocery store/pharmacy type store. I read an idea that one of those smaller urban Target Express stores could be ideal...and it could. Most UofA students have to go to El Con to go to Target. This would be a lot more convenient and its on the trolley line.

But dont hold your breathe on this being built. If anything, it'll end up a 4-6 story mixed use building with a Starbucks and T-Mobile store. Thats about the extent any developer can financially pull off.

I believe Medistar is also the developer for the Central Station two tower project in downtown PHX. One of the towers is aimed for student housing - so this could be legit. Presuming Central Station actually starts going vertical soon...

[Obadno]

I believe Medistar is also the developer for the Central Station two tower project in downtown PHX. One of the towers is aimed for student housing - so this could be legit. Presuming Central Station actually starts going vertical soon...

Central Station had its groundbreaking last month, its under construction right now.

[AZ71]

Steve Kozachik (which this is in his Ward 6) said today on the Buckmaster Podcast they he is in support of the location. That the old apartments on the parcel are "old as dirt" and need to be torn down. But he suspects something will be built but probably a smaller scaled version of it. So again, I don't have faith we're going to get a 20-story tower out of it. (Just based on the fact we haven't had a 20-story building built in 35 years)

But at least Medistar has built tall buildings in their portfolio. But it all matters who wants to rent space out. It looks like they built a 22-story InterContinental Hotel next to the Houston Medical Center in Texas. So maybe we can hope for a nice hotel there to service Banner and the UofA...since really all that is there is the Aloft which only has 154 rooms.

[somethingfast]

Steve Kozachik (which this is in his Ward 6) said today on the Buckmaster Podcast they he is in support of the location. That the old apartments on the parcel are "old as dirt" and need to be torn down. But he suspects something will be built but probably a smaller scaled version of it. So again, I don't have faith we're going to get a 20-story tower out of it. (Just based on the fact we haven't had a 20-story building built in 35 years)

But at least Medistar has built tall buildings in their portfolio. But it all matters who wants to rent space out. It looks like they built a 22-story InterContinental Hotel next to the Houston Medical Center in Texas. So maybe we can hope for a nice hotel there to service Banner and the UofA...since really all that is there is the Aloft which only has 154 rooms.

Hey Steve - 20 stories is not *that* tall for a city of 1.1 million...just sayin.

[ZonaRealtor2021]

Hey Steve - 20 stories is not *that* tall for a city of 1.1 million...just sayin.

So the Corbett project is going to be huge!!!!!
In total over $186 million dollar project after all is finished in two phases
Phase one is now scheduled to be completed in October \ November time frame with pickle ball courts in the middle between the renovated Corbett building and the new love burger.

Phase 2 will be an 8 to 10 story hotel with the entrance coming from inside the renovated corbett building with over 200 stalls of parking, apparently they have been talking to Marriott for a while.
Also huge news they are going to build up to 15 stories tall & around 300 market rate apartments behind the hotel they have apparently been talking to the opus folks and sharing numbers they mentioned several times that the opus project is going to happen soon! They have the hotel projected to be done sometime in 2026

They also mentioned they plan to build a hotel over the depot plaza deck still and apparently the Rialto block is now back on also.

Tabu bar and restaurant seems like a cool new concept coming to downtown with live music and geared towards the 30 and over crowd with a higher price point this concept is coming from bars that are located in México.

RN will now invest $125k dollars for this year‘s dusk music festival to attract bigger headlines and in doing so will become a major sponsor.

They also activated the empty parcels of land on the south side of Broadway near the sunshine mile “activity”.. more information to follow in the next coming months.

Fenton group is getting more money again an additional hundred thousand dollars to finish their roof top bar on top of the Reillys due to cost going up and permitting problems with the city at which McCusker said news to come next month with a streamline process deal potentially made with the city to alleviate that issue for businesses downtown.

There will be pop-up shops coming along empty storefronts on Broadway in downtown.

And a cool project around the El Presidio and Transamerica building to turn some of the streets into outdoor cafés with tons of art, and place making, new lighting, and more huge murals to come it all looked very cool and it’s something that’s been in the works since 2019.

Also disappointing news from McCusker The HBO series Duster will be leaving for New Mexico after HBO Max was bought out by discovery.
He said that there move was solely based on the tax rebates that are available in New Mexico and if the current Arizona film tax bill was passed they would’ve stayed here!
$60 million gone like that

[crzyabe]

So the Corbett project is going to be huge!!!!!
In total over $186 million dollar project after all is finished in two phases
Phase one is now scheduled to be completed in October \ November time frame with pickle ball courts in the middle between the renovated Corbett building and the new love burger.

Phase 2 will be an 8 to 10 story hotel with the entrance coming from inside the renovated corbett building with over 200 stalls of parking, apparently they have been talking to Marriott for a while.
Also huge news they are going to build up to 15 stories tall & around 300 market rate apartments behind the hotel they have apparently been talking to the opus folks and sharing numbers they mentioned several times that the opus project is going to happen soon! They have the hotel projected to be done sometime in 2026

They also mentioned they plan to build a hotel over the depot plaza deck still and apparently the Rialto block is now back on also.

Tabu bar and restaurant seems like a cool new concept coming to downtown with live music and geared towards the 30 and over crowd with a higher price point this concept is coming from bars that are located in México.

RN will now invest $125k dollars for this year‘s dusk music festival to attract bigger headlines and in doing so will become a major sponsor.

They also activated the empty parcels of land on the south side of Broadway near the sunshine mile “activity”.. more information to follow in the next coming months.

Fenton group is getting more money again an additional hundred thousand dollars to finish their roof top bar on top of the Reillys due to cost going up and permitting problems with the city at which McCusker said news to come next month with a streamline process deal potentially made with the city to alleviate that issue for businesses downtown.

There will be pop-up shops coming along empty storefronts on Broadway in downtown.

And a cool project around the El Presidio and Transamerica building to turn some of the streets into outdoor cafés with tons of art, and place making, new lighting, and more huge murals to come it all looked very cool and it’s something that’s been in the works since 2019.

Also disappointing news from McCusker The HBO series Duster will be leaving for New Mexico after HBO Max was bought out by discovery.
He said that there move was solely based on the tax rebates that are available in New Mexico and if the current Arizona film tax bill was passed they would’ve stayed here!
$60 million gone like that

That is a lot of new projects announced! Were any concept images shown?

[ZonaRealtor2021]

Yes i have a few of the Corbett project and tabu bar.
I don’t know how to upload them tho? I was on a business call & forgot to screenshot the renderings for the other projects but they look amazing.

[AZ71]

Yes i have a few of the Corbett project and tabu bar.
I don’t know how to upload them tho? I was on a business call & forgot to screenshot the renderings for the other projects but they look amazing.

Can you supply a link?

[ZonaRealtor2021]

Can you supply a link?
No I screenshot the renderings

[andrewsaturn]

I was able to listen in and screenshot the pics. Here they are:

https://i.imgur.com/5MIqpo9.png
https://i.imgur.com/12TMlXH.png
https://i.imgur.com/izI5jYy.png
https://i.imgur.com/dytm6IL.png

So the parcel is 3 acres and the north side of it will have the Corbett Building and restaurant. The South side will have the hotel and residential building. As noted, the hotel will be about 8 stories with a proposed 15 story apartment complex. Phase one which includes the restaurant and Corbett building is said to be completed by Nov 2022. Phase two will be the rest and they said it will include 400 spaces for parking.

[andrewsaturn]

Yes, Opus was mentioned in helpful consultation with the development of Corbett's residential development, So I guess Opus is still moving ahead. The location of the old building of Opus's new development site has been razed and a sign with their logo is presently there.

[andrewsaturn]

As stated before, other developments worth mentioning include:

-TABU (128 E Congress) (Gus Taylor building next to Batch)

Mystical food and drinks made with forbidden ingredients. Food and live Music venue.
https://i.imgur.com/JTTeV6C.png
https://i.imgur.com/dbTTtbx.png

-Properties on Southside of broadway (Tucson Blvd/Broadway)
Old country home furniture block. They are sending a RFQ for development.

[andrewsaturn]

Yes i have a few of the Corbett project and tabu bar.
I don’t know how to upload them tho? I was on a business call & forgot to screenshot the renderings for the other projects but they look amazing.

I screenshot some of the other ones but Ill upload later :haha:

[AZ71]

I was able to listen in and screenshot the pics. Here they are:

https://i.imgur.com/5MIqpo9.png
https://i.imgur.com/12TMlXH.png
https://i.imgur.com/izI5jYy.png
https://i.imgur.com/dytm6IL.png

So the parcel is 3 acres and the north side of it will have the Corbett Building and restaurant. The South side will have the hotel and residential building. As noted, the hotel will be about 8 stories with a proposed 15 story apartment complex. Phase one which includes the restaurant and Corbett building is said to be completed by Nov 2022. Phase two will be the rest and they said it will include 400 spaces for parking.

Thanks for providing all these. I dont know. I dont think Tucson has a great record of actually completing things. I'll be surprised if any of this gets done...except the pickle ball courts. :haha:

[ZonaRealtor2021]

I screenshot some of the other ones but Ill upload later :haha:
Andrew thank you!!
I don’t know how to upload yet Lmao
If you could show folks the renderings of the El presidio / Transamerica building project that would be great - It looks pretty cool if they can actually pull it all together and get it done! Jennie and Fletcher are really pushing hard for it!

@AZ71 common brotha be positive at the 100th time at bat something gotta hit right.!?! lol I won’t hold my breath either for the apartments portion of the project but at least these folks (Scott Stiteler) have gotten a couple things done so maybe. Fingers crossed!!!!!!

[AZ71]

Andrew thank you!!
I don’t know how to upload yet Lmao
If you could show folks the renderings of the El presidio / Transamerica building project that would be great - It looks pretty cool if they can actually pull it all together and get it done! Jennie and Fletcher are really pushing hard for it!

@AZ71 common brotha be positive at the 100th time at bat something gotta hit right.!?! lol I won’t hold my breath either for the apartments portion of the project but at least these folks (Scott Stiteler) have gotten a couple things done so maybe. Fingers crossed!!!!!!

You know those pickleball courts are gonna be built for sure! LOL
But you're right. Stiteler has a better track record than say the Dabdoubs and Peach Properties!

I'm interested in this El Presidio/Transamerica thing. Is it a bldg?

Are you all sure The Opus on 4th is back on? I heard it was off. I see on the permits on the site for the location is says "Utility potholing for design of shoring for new underground parking garage". So is it the new building or are they just building a new parking garage there instead I wonder?

[andrewsaturn]

You know those pickleball courts are gonna be built for sure! LOL
But you're right. Stiteler has a better track record than say the Dabdoubs and Peach Properties!

I'm interested in this El Presidio/Transamerica thing. Is it a bldg?

Are you all sure The Opus on 4th is back on? I heard it was off. I see on the permits on the site for the location is says "Utility potholing for design of shoring for new underground parking garage". So is it the new building or are they just building a new parking garage there instead I wonder?

I believe it is more a street landscape improvement thing. I'm not sure if OPUS development is back on. I sent an inquiry to them to see if I can get an answer.

[andrewsaturn]

Here they are:

The first pic shows two pocket parks on the corners of the street.
https://i.imgur.com/U6LKoHj.png
https://i.imgur.com/doAuQWE.png
https://i.imgur.com/sKL6lAw.png

[juan.x.ito]

I know this is really off topic, but does anyone know if there's any update on the Foothills Mall? I was so sad to see it die down, and amc is my favorite movie theater in tucson... i wonder if bourn still has big plans

[crzyabe]

I am just learning about this now, but it appears that NorGen has paid a settlement for not developing the "Arena Site" and has removed their dibs to develop it. The site is back on the market for another potential investor.

NorGen paid a $1.3million settlement and still owns the lot between the arena site and the TCC in which they will probably leave their tent skeleton up year-round.

https://rionuevo.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/020722-Rio-Nuevo_4PP.pdf

[AZ71]

I am just learning about this now, but it appears that NorGen has paid a settlement for not developing the "Arena Site" and has removed their dibs to develop it. The site is back on the market for another potential investor.

NorGen paid a $1.3million settlement and still owns the lot between the arena site and the TCC in which they will probably leave their tent skeleton up year-round.

https://rionuevo.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/020722-Rio-Nuevo_4PP.pdf

That is interesting. I've heard nothing about this. That pdf link is kind of vague and still depends if Nor-Gen paid the $1.3M settlement I guess. I do hope its true and we can move on with finding new developers for the remaining land. But the city still lists the parcels as owned by Nor-Gen. So I'm not sure what is going on. What a cursed piece of property. I do hope Rio Nuevo learned their lesson and if they put out an RFP on that land that they choose someone who can perform and close on it to really develop it. I just hope its something grand and not another Hampton Inn.

[somethingfast]

That is interesting. I've heard nothing about this. That pdf link is kind of vague and still depends if Nor-Gen paid the $1.3M settlement I guess. I do hope its true and we can move on with finding new developers for the remaining land. But the city still lists the parcels as owned by Nor-Gen. So I'm not sure what is going on. What a cursed piece of property. I do hope Rio Nuevo learned their lesson and if they put out an RFP on that land that they choose someone who can perform and close on it to really develop it. I just hope its something grand and not another Hampton Inn.

If they can't come up with a reasonable 15k+ A-grade arena concept, forget it. Insane how a metro of 1.1M+ can't replace a crappy old 9k arena after 20+ years. Tucson, get your friggin act together...

[AZ71]

If they can't come up with a reasonable 15k+ A-grade arena concept, forget it. Insane how a metro of 1.1M+ can't replace a crappy old 9k arena after 20+ years. Tucson, get your friggin act together...

Agreed. Downtowns are changing from business centers to entertainment districts. People want to go downtown for dinner and a show/game/movie/club. They need to stop looking for businesses and cater to entertainment. A Staples-like arena is a must for downtown. Could be used for sports, concerts, etc). But with the tent land not being available..I'm not sure something of that magnitude could be built on the land that is left. I dont trust Rio Nuevo to make the right decision and search out the right people to build such a facility.

[ZonaRealtor2021]

That is interesting. I've heard nothing about this. That pdf link is kind of vague and still depends if Nor-Gen paid the $1.3M settlement I guess. I do hope its true and we can move on with finding new developers for the remaining land. But the city still lists the parcels as owned by Nor-Gen. So I'm not sure what is going on. What a cursed piece of property. I do hope Rio Nuevo learned their lesson and if they put out an RFP on that land that they choose someone who can perform and close on it to really develop it. I just hope its something grand and not another Hampton Inn.
It’s insane to me that after all this time & years wasted when DT was booming before COVID this is all NorGen is going to have to pay up!

Seems like he’s just as sleazy as HSL and company

As far as getting a staples type arena or entertainment complex- I would have a better chance of dating the winner of the $473 million dollar power ball winner up in Phoenix.

It’s going to sit as a dirt lot until the extension of the RN district runs out and then maybe we will get another gym show tent put back up by NorGen.

This city needs another business friendly mayor and a few council members that still hold Tucson‘s DNA at heart to really push for the downtown to expand to its potential.

I have mentioned my opinions before that Fletcher and the gang don’t have what it takes to take the downtown to the next level!

It really makes me bummed out on all the potential we have and completely wasted it away!!

[AZ71]

It’s insane to me that after all this time & years wasted when DT was booming before COVID this is all NorGen is going to have to pay up!

Seems like he’s just as sleazy as HSL and company

As far as getting a staples type arena or entertainment complex- I would have a better chance of dating the winner of the $473 million dollar power ball winner up in Phoenix.

It’s going to sit as a dirt lot until the extension of the RN district runs out and then maybe we will get another gym show tent put back up by NorGen.

This city needs another business friendly mayor and a few council members that still hold Tucson‘s DNA at heart to really push for the downtown to expand to its potential.

I have mentioned my opinions before that Fletcher and the gang don’t have what it takes to take the downtown to the next level!

It really makes me bummed out on all the potential we have and completely wasted it away!!

Well the funny thing is when they chose Nor-Gen it was when Rio was a bit more corrupt with its members. In fact the final two proposals was Nor-Gen and Peach Properties. They ended up going with Nor-Gen and Peach sued or something. Regardless..the deal was they had to build $10M worth of construction by 2020 or pay RN a $2M fee. So its been in court for 2 years and I'm guessing RN gets that $1.3M payout with the deal Nor-Gen sells the land. They're all corrupt.

About the arena idea, I've heard both Rio Nuevo and the city decided to back the growth of Kino South and that arena idea there instead. I think its ridiculous. They're losing so much money with hotel stays and restaurants and downtown. And the streetcar for mass transportation of people to and from. There is no good planning in this city.

I guess the next best thing left is some kind of shopping / residential complex. Maybe a place for restaurants/bars/shopping/museums/movie theatre maybe, etc and residential on top of it all. I mean what else can they build? TCC has no restaurants around there for people to easily walk to. La Placita was the right idea...but it was just ugly. They should have built a modern facility outdoor retail type concept. I'm not suren

Anyone else have any ideas (other than an arena) that could benefit and amp up our downtown? That dirt lot is so ugly looking at it from I-10. That tent should be banned. The city should secretly outlaw such structures to stick it to Nor-Gen. But then they'd take the Gem & Mineral Show to Scottsdale like they've been threatening for years. That'd be a big loss for Tucson.

[bthom3000]

It’s insane to me that after all this time & years wasted when DT was booming before COVID this is all NorGen is going to have to pay up!

Seems like he’s just as sleazy as HSL and company

As far as getting a staples type arena or entertainment complex- I would have a better chance of dating the winner of the $473 million dollar power ball winner up in Phoenix.

It’s going to sit as a dirt lot until the extension of the RN district runs out and then maybe we will get another gym show tent put back up by NorGen.

This city needs another business friendly mayor and a few council members that still hold Tucson‘s DNA at heart to really push for the downtown to expand to its potential.

I have mentioned my opinions before that Fletcher and the gang don’t have what it takes to take the downtown to the next level!

It really makes me bummed out on all the potential we have and completely wasted it away!!

I’ve been saying this for years to sell the land to one of the tribes around here and let them develop a hotel,casino, arena, convention complex. It could be done with almost no risk to the tax payer and really drive a booming downtown!!!!! That would probably be the only way to get a decent size arena. If left to the idiots who run this town they’d probably only allow a 5k seat arena and only if it comes with low income seating.

[somethingfast]

I’ve been saying this for years to sell the land to one of the tribes around here and let them develop a hotel,casino, arena, convention complex. It could be done with almost no risk to the tax payer and really drive a booming downtown!!!!! That would probably be the only way to get a decent size arena. If left to the idiots who run this town they’d probably only allow a 5k seat arena and only if it comes with low income seating.

Because it makes sense, and because it would actually work,.....it will never happen !

[combusean]

The City isn't going to give up choice land downtown to a tribe along with the sales and property taxes, plus something like that would have to be approved by the Federal government.

A brand new, 15k-seat arena is a non-starter without an anchor tenant and Phoenix being only 90 miles away for large shows. San Diego's arena isn't even that big and it's almost sixty years old and the population is 3x the size of Pima County.

[somethingfast]

The City isn't going to give up choice land downtown to a tribe along with the sales and property taxes, plus something like that would have to be approved by the Federal government.

A brand new, 15k-seat arena is a non-starter without an anchor tenant and Phoenix being only 90 miles away for large shows. San Diego's arena isn't even that big and it's almost sixty years old and the population is 3x the size of Pima County.

The point is - Tucson needs to (pardon the pun) take a gamble. Tucson is really, really falling behind and doing nothing to create any kind of attraction quality to DT. Kino is a bad idea. Who the hell wants to spend time in South Tucson recreationally? If City of Tucson wants to pull in revenue it needs to go (for Tucson) big: build a 12,500 (min) seat arena that is mostly for concerts and exhibition and build a DT baseball stadium for whatever farm team. They need to get people to convene nightly between UofA and DT. Little bistros/coffee shops and boutique hotels are NOT enough. And put in some kind of attraction - like an observation tower at 500 feet for the terrific views of the surrounding mountains. Damn, do something...or continue to die. And Tucson is dying...

[AZ71]

The point is - Tucson needs to (pardon the pun) take a gamble. Tucson is really, really falling behind and doing nothing to create any kind of attraction quality to DT. Kino is a bad idea. Who the hell wants to spend time in South Tucson recreationally? If City of Tucson wants to pull in revenue it needs to go (for Tucson) big: build a 12,500 (min) seat arena that is mostly for concerts and exhibition and build a DT baseball stadium for whatever farm team. They need to get people to convene nightly between UofA and DT. Little bistros/coffee shops and boutique hotels are NOT enough. And put in some kind of attraction - like an observation tower at 500 feet for the terrific views of the surrounding mountains. Damn, do something...or continue to die. And Tucson is dying...

I liked the original idea whey they threw around the idea of a Gem & Mineral Museum and then an aquatic museum. Of course city council and Rio Nuevo bawked at the idea. Now the Gem museum is in the old Pima County Courthouse and the aquarium was snagged by Scottsdale and is OdySea. Tucson just has no vision. Even if they dont want to build any kind of arena...I think the best we can hope for is like an outdoor shopping plaza of restaurants, bars, museum, hotel and residnetial towers. I'd love a small arena but its just not going to happen. My other idea is with the potential tax incentive bill passing...Tucson is gonna need some sound stages. Build a few on that land but also make it an entertainment district. Sort of like a mini Universal City Walk. Add a Southern Arizona Motion Picture Museum and at least downtown would be prepared to have filming set up to further that industry. And when a sound stage isn't in use can be used as space for conventions or even smaller concerts. Avg size sound stage is 15-45k sq. feet. Thats sizeable.

[somethingfast]

I liked the original idea whey they threw around the idea of a Gem & Mineral Museum and then an aquatic museum. Of course city council and Rio Nuevo bawked at the idea. Now the Gem museum is in the old Pima County Courthouse and the aquarium was snagged by Scottsdale and is OdySea. Tucson just has no vision. Even if they dont want to build any kind of arena...I think the best we can hope for is like an outdoor shopping plaza of restaurants, bars, museum, hotel and residnetial towers. I'd love a small arena but its just not going to happen. My other idea is with the potential tax incentive bill passing...Tucson is gonna need some sound stages. Build a few on that land but also make it an entertainment district. Sort of like a mini Universal City Walk. Add a Southern Arizona Motion Picture Museum and at least downtown would be prepared to have filming set up to further that industry. And when a sound stage isn't in use can be used as space for conventions or even smaller concerts. Avg size sound stage is 15-45k sq. feet. Thats sizeable.

Exactly. Do *something*. Anything. Tucson needs to think like San Antonio when it went with a crazy idea called "Riverwalk". Imagine that? A river under downtown with retail. Crazy. Get crazy Tucson or get nowhere. You've guaranteed you'll never be another Phoenix...will you even be another Albuquerque at this point???

[Locofresh55]

Exactly. Do *something*. Anything. Tucson needs to think like San Antonio when it went with a crazy idea called "Riverwalk". Imagine that? A river under downtown with retail. Crazy. Get crazy Tucson or get nowhere. You've guaranteed you'll never be another Phoenix...will you even be another Albuquerque at this point???

Unfortunately, I feel like more Tucsonans would rather "get nowhere". The water shortage in the being in the news again has thrusted the NIMBY's into this,"this is exactly why people don't need to move here, because we don't have water". NIMBYs are jumping on every news article about development in Tucson/Pima county and are ranting about more people and less water equals a disastrous situation. I even saw one person comment that Tucson should have a population limit to prevent people from moving in. I agree that the water shortage is a serious issue, but to mention silly things like preventing people from moving here is just asinine.

[combusean]

The arena would be a money pit and a bad idea even if built.

I think people should really consider the ill effects of turning downtown Tucson from what sort of resembles a neighborhood into a collection of uses. Phoenix tried that for 25 years and it was an unmitigated disaster. Civic Plaza, the arena, the ballpark, and even ASU (the one thing they did which arguably worked however) was a wide, indiscriminate blade of urban renewal. Downtowns do not need that sort of thing.

Even if it did muster the finances for some sort of signature project, it still has a seemingly slow, unpredictable development process (like 8 months to approve a storage unit) and complicated zoning code. None of that small town mindset is going to go away even if they did fill some big britches and approve some sort of potential catalyst.

[AZ71]

Unfortunately, I feel like more Tucsonans would rather "get nowhere". The water shortage in the being in the news again has thrusted the NIMBY's into this,"this is exactly why people don't need to move here, because we don't have water". NIMBYs are jumping on every news article about development in Tucson/Pima county and are ranting about more people and less water equals a disastrous situation. I even saw one person comment that Tucson should have a population limit to prevent people from moving in. I agree that the water shortage is a serious issue, but to mention silly things like preventing people from moving here is just asinine.

I get so sick of the water excuse everyone talks about. Its really rallied the nimby's. The fact of it is Tucson is in one of the best shapes of any city in the dry southwest. We pump a lot of the CAP water into the Avra Valley aquifer. We have at least 100 year supply for everyone even with new people. And then the water we do use 70% of it is agriculture. So they'll be the first to have rations. Our conservation efforts and is great and we should do more...but it sways the facts and reality of the situation that we're in this dire need...and its just not true. And if they were so worried they should move back from where they came from and should never have retired in the dry SW.