Tucson Development Thread

[cdsuofa]

Yeah, I knew about the study of widening I-10 to Valencia and/or connecting Aviation Hwy to the freeway (purchasing the land for it and planning ahead for it is part of the RTA). I provided a link to the ADOT website and it's all in the plan there titled, "I-10 and SR 210 Feasibility Study", but what the report on KOLD makes it seem is that widening I-10 to 4 lanes south do Ajo Way is already planned for, not still being studied. I was also saying that in my opinion, though connecting Aviation Hwy (SR 210) to I-10 isn't a bad idea, and may be a good idea, but it isn't a substitution for widening I-10 to at least 3 lanes. Doing that all the way to Valencia is a good start, but it needs to be done all the way to at least Houghton, if not Vail. The southeast side is probably the 2nd fastest growing part of the metro area, after the northwest side (Marana, Oro Valley). If you look at maps of the city limits of Tucson there is a huge area extending down Houghton to the southeast of the urban part of the city that is within the city limits. Though it might take a few decades to really get going (the southern part of Houghton, but still north of I-10 is just getting going again) with construction, that will be built on some day in the future. Prepare for it now so we aren't behind the curve yet again.

I agree, the southern area of Tucson, in particular Vail is definitely the 2nd most rapidly expanding area in terms of housing in Tucson and the general area south of Tucson from the Airport to a little east of the UA tech park is where all the industry is growing. Both areas lack the transportation infrastructure though to truly expand and attract both builders, business and buyers. Someone wrote an opinion article on basically this situation recently on TIBO "Infrastructure needs to improve first for TIA future plans to succeed (http://tibo.zxq.net/wordpress/?p=1492)" . I think it has some good points.

[Patrick S]

I agree, the southern area of Tucson, in particular Vail is definitely the 2nd most rapidly expanding area in terms of housing in Tucson and the general area south of Tucson from the Airport to a little east of the UA tech park is where all the industry is growing. Both areas lack the transportation infrastructure though to truly expand and attract both builders, business and buyers. Someone wrote an opinion article on basically this situation recently on TIBO "Infrastructure needs to improve first for TIA future plans to succeed (http://tibo.zxq.net/wordpress/?p=1492)" . I think it has some good points.
There are large residential developments near, on, or even east of Houghton, and now that the economy is recovering, businesses are finally starting to build on Houghton too. Walmart just opened a new SuperCenter at Golf Links and Houghton and there's one under construction near Houghton and Rita Ranch (it may even be open for all I know, I hardly ever am out in that area). A new Quick Mart and a new Good Will store also recently opened at Golf Links and Houghton. With the widening projects underway on Houghton (Houghton and Broadway is being rebuilt, and when that is nearing completion they will widen Houghton to 6 lanes between 6th St. and 22nd St. - and they are also currently widening Houghton to 6 lanes from Irvington to Valencia), these areas are going to be primed for growth in the near future. Having a widened Houghton will go a long way to helping that area, but it is imperative that I-10 gets widened in that area too.

As for that plan mentioned on the TIBO website, I'm not totally sold on it. I like the scope, idea, and big planning - but I'm not sure about the actual plan. It's true that Golf Links west of Wilmot has few turns (between Wilmot and Craycroft there is only 1 or 2 on the westbound lanes and none on the eastbound lanes), and there is none between Craycroft and Swan, but I'm not sure how easy it would be to build grade separated intersections. Remember, Golf Links is very close to DMAFB. These types of intersections require a lot of space. Also, there are gates into DMAFB at both Craycroft and Swan (where the Border Patrol station is also located). Golf Links and Craycroft would be particularly hard to build, as there are businesses on the northeast corner and a park on the northwest corner and the DMAFB gate/border is very close to the road at that intersection. Even more difficult would be Alvernon. The proposal says to make changes to Alvernon to have as few lights as possible, if any. Well, having none is almost impossible and it's still very hard to get it close to even a full parkway status - let alone expressway-like. Alvernon, between Golf Links/Aviation Hwy. and I-10 is pretty built up, with many businesses and industrial areas. The area south of I-10 is pretty built up too - and they just rebuilt the intersection at Alvernon and Valencia - so there's going to be little desire to destroy something they just spent millions of dollars to improve.

I do think Valencia could help solve the problem though. If I were in charge, what I would do is move the TIA terminal to the east side of the airport (and yes, I realize they just did work on improving the terminal). This would make sense for 2 reasons. First, the airport plans on building a new runway in the distant future on the eastern portion of the airport. Second, this new terminal would be accessible from south Alvernon, which means it would be accessible from Hughes Access Rd. from the west and Valencia from the east (without having to drive into the denser area to the west and it's closer to I-10). Hughes Access Rd. could be extended all the way to I-19 (which would be similar to the proposed Aerospace Parkway). Since little of the area around proposed Parkway is built on, it could be made into a road that has high capacity with few intersections and turns. This road would stretch to at least Alvernon (if not I-10 slightly northwest of Rita Rd., or even connecting to Rita Rd. at I-10), and would allow quick access to TIA from I-19 and thus also I-10 for eastbound traffic (such as downtown and Marana). Using Valencia to Alvernon would allow traffic from westbound I-10 (the Vail area for example) to access it quicker. This will only improve now that the Valencia widening project from Alvernon to Wilmot has just started, which will widen Valencia to 3 lanes in each direction. Add in the fact that the Kolb and Valencia intersection is currently being redesigned and those who live along Golf Links, and don't want to go all the way to I-10 would be able to access the airport faster. I live just south of Golf Links on Camino Seco and the way I access I-10 and the airport is by Kolb to Valencia. With a widened Valenica and a reworked Valencia and Kolb intersection (both already in the works), a new TIA terminal, and the already proposed Aerospace Pkwy. the need for radical changes along Alvernon and Golf Links wouldn't be needed at all. I think this would save lots of money and major construction along Golf Links and Alvernon.

[Anqrew]

The Retail spaces in the Centro Garage/Cadence are going to be occupied soon. the new businesses will be:
Hi-Fi Kitchen and Cocktails
Fed By Threads
Planet Smoothie
Unnamed Hair/Nail salon


Hi-Fi is Scottsdale based and Fed By Threads is Tucson based, Planet Smoothie Appears to be in several states (wonder if this will negatively impact Xoom Juice on Congress?)

heres an article link: http://azstarnet.com/business/local/tucson-getting-hi-fi-kitchen-and-cocktails/article_e02d1d72-935d-11e3-9510-001a4bcf887a.html

and photo of construction of the retail spots, which are supposed to be ready by "Late March"
https://scontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1/1779712_698394226878352_539219854_n.jpg
Image via Fed By Threads Facebook Page

And heres a photo of what the Hi-Fi looks like in Scottsdale, I imagine the one here will look similar.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/923413_441311052665104_463141197_n.jpg
image via Hi Fi Kitchen Facebook Page

[cdsuofa]

There are large residential developments near, on, or even east of Houghton, and now that the economy is recovering, businesses are finally starting to build on Houghton too. Walmart just opened a new SuperCenter at Golf Links and Houghton and there's one under construction near Houghton and Rita Ranch (it may even be open for all I know, I hardly ever am out in that area). A new Quick Mart and a new Good Will store also recently opened at Golf Links and Houghton. With the widening projects underway on Houghton (Houghton and Broadway is being rebuilt, and when that is nearing completion they will widen Houghton to 6 lanes between 6th St. and 22nd St. - and they are also currently widening Houghton to 6 lanes from Irvington to Valencia), these areas are going to be primed for growth in the near future. Having a widened Houghton will go a long way to helping that area, but it is imperative that I-10 gets widened in that area too.

As for that plan mentioned on the TIBO website, I'm not totally sold on it. I like the scope, idea, and big planning - but I'm not sure about the actual plan. It's true that Golf Links west of Wilmot has few turns (between Wilmot and Craycroft there is only 1 or 2 on the westbound lanes and none on the eastbound lanes), and there is none between Craycroft and Swan, but I'm not sure how easy it would be to build grade separated intersections. Remember, Golf Links is very close to DMAFB. These types of intersections require a lot of space. Also, there are gates into DMAFB at both Craycroft and Swan (where the Border Patrol station is also located). Golf Links and Craycroft would be particularly hard to build, as there are businesses on the northeast corner and a park on the northwest corner and the DMAFB gate/border is very close to the road at that intersection. Even more difficult would be Alvernon. The proposal says to make changes to Alvernon to have as few lights as possible, if any. Well, having none is almost impossible and it's still very hard to get it close to even a full parkway status - let alone expressway-like. Alvernon, between Golf Links/Aviation Hwy. and I-10 is pretty built up, with many businesses and industrial areas. The area south of I-10 is pretty built up too - and they just rebuilt the intersection at Alvernon and Valencia - so there's going to be little desire to destroy something they just spent millions of dollars to improve.

I do think Valencia could help solve the problem though. If I were in charge, what I would do is move the TIA terminal to the east side of the airport (and yes, I realize they just did work on improving the terminal). This would make sense for 2 reasons. First, the airport plans on building a new runway in the distant future on the eastern portion of the airport. Second, this new terminal would be accessible from south Alvernon, which means it would be accessible from Hughes Access Rd. from the west and Valencia from the east (without having to drive into the denser area to the west and it's closer to I-10). Hughes Access Rd. could be extended all the way to I-19 (which would be similar to the proposed Aerospace Parkway). Since little of the area around proposed Parkway is built on, it could be made into a road that has high capacity with few intersections and turns. This road would stretch to at least Alvernon (if not I-10 slightly northwest of Rita Rd., or even connecting to Rita Rd. at I-10), and would allow quick access to TIA from I-19 and thus also I-10 for eastbound traffic (such as downtown and Marana). Using Valencia to Alvernon would allow traffic from westbound I-10 (the Vail area for example) to access it quicker. This will only improve now that the Valencia widening project from Alvernon to Wilmot has just started, which will widen Valencia to 3 lanes in each direction. Add in the fact that the Kolb and Valencia intersection is currently being redesigned and those who live along Golf Links, and don't want to go all the way to I-10 would be able to access the airport faster. I live just south of Golf Links on Camino Seco and the way I access I-10 and the airport is by Kolb to Valencia. With a widened Valenica and a reworked Valencia and Kolb intersection (both already in the works), a new TIA terminal, and the already proposed Aerospace Pkwy. the need for radical changes along Alvernon and Golf Links wouldn't be needed at all. I think this would save lots of money and major construction along Golf Links and Alvernon.

I agree with a lot of your ideas, and I also agree with what that article said about their not being one correct idea. I think Kolb to Valencia with the improved intersection and widened Valencia will do a lot for those that take that route. And you are right grade separation at those spots would definitely be a project but You have to think about all those that live north and may take Crayroft, Swan, Alvernon or Country Club to get south. Regardless, my major concern is not so much yet where its done but how. Tucson seems to always want the answer to be add another lane. The truth is what slows down Tucson traffic more than anything is stoplight after stoplight, business entrances, or red light crosswalks, etc etc. I think we can all agree that a typical beltway style freeway is never going to happen in Tucson. I think the only way to improve traffic flow would be to link up sections of "expressways" or "parkways" where speeds are higher, lights are minimal if at all and business access is not direct. Whether it be getting people from north Tucson south or getting people from central/east Tucson west/northwest I think that is the only realistic solution. Obviously there are so many places and ways it can be done and this cant be done to every arterial road, at most we could probably put together two east/west connections and two north/south, so its good to get some ideas out there. These projects have to start with discussions whether it be on websites or in City hall, so lets start having them! At the end of the day we all want the same thing. The future of our express transit will probably lie in just a few of these ideas being developed and no matter where it happens, I definitely cant wait for it!

[Ted Lyons]

The Retail spaces in the Centro Garage/Cadence are going to be occupied soon. the new businesses will be:
Hi-Fi Kitchen and Cocktails
Fed By Threads
Planet Smoothie
Unnamed Hair/Nail salon


Hi-Fi is Scottsdale based and Fed By Threads is Tucson based, Planet Smoothie Appears to be in several states (wonder if this will negatively impact Xoom Juice on Congress?)

heres an article link: http://azstarnet.com/business/local/tucson-getting-hi-fi-kitchen-and-cocktails/article_e02d1d72-935d-11e3-9510-001a4bcf887a.html

and photo of construction of the retail spots, which are supposed to be ready by "Late March"
https://scontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1/1779712_698394226878352_539219854_n.jpg
Image via Fed By Threads Facebook Page

And heres a photo of what the Hi-Fi looks like in Scottsdale, I imagine the one here will look similar.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/923413_441311052665104_463141197_n.jpg
image via Hi Fi Kitchen Facebook Page

Hi Fi has their liquor license application in already and it looks to be pretty close to direct competition for Playground. I mentioned to someone the other day that I really think we're hitting the stage of businesses potentially cannibalizing each other. Should be an interesting year.

[aznate27]

Hi Fi has their liquor license application in already and it looks to be pretty close to direct competition for Playground. I mentioned to someone the other day that I really think we're hitting the stage of businesses potentially cannibalizing each other. Should be an interesting year.

I disagree that Playground and Hi Fi would compete against each other. They are two different styles of bars that target different crowds IMO. Hi Fi looks more sports bar and Playground caters to more the music DJ scene and a bit more sophisticated (for Tucson). If this was Los Angeles, Playground would be in located in Hollywood, Hi Fi near USC. In any case it's good to see more business downtown. Now the city needs to focus on the west side of downtown , it's dead west of stone.

[Anqrew]

I disagree that Playground and Hi Fi would compete against each other. They are two different styles of bars that target different crowds IMO. Hi Fi looks more sports bar and Playground caters to more the music DJ scene and a bit more sophisticated (for Tucson). If this was Los Angeles, Playground would be in located in Hollywood, Hi Fi near USC. In any case it's good to see more business downtown. Now the city needs to focus on the west side of downtown , it's dead west of stone.

I agree. Hi Fi seems like its aiming towards a young college crowd with a "vegas" atmosphere while Playground is more sophisticated and in my experience attracts a more mature crowd. I also agree about the west side of downtown lacking in development. I think thats the area we will see getting more growth simply because the east end is almost completely built out, so naturally anything new will have no choice but to venture into other areas of downtown. but i also want to see some more projects on the east end in the coming years (the empty lot south of Cadence, empty lot on 5th and Toole, the Rondstadt...)

[Ted Lyons]

I disagree that Playground and Hi Fi would compete against each other. They are two different styles of bars that target different crowds IMO. Hi Fi looks more sports bar and Playground caters to more the music DJ scene and a bit more sophisticated (for Tucson). If this was Los Angeles, Playground would be in located in Hollywood, Hi Fi near USC. In any case it's good to see more business downtown. Now the city needs to focus on the west side of downtown , it's dead west of stone.

Have you guys been to Playground lately? It's hardly a sophisticated crowd. Also, check out some of Hi Fi's pictures on Facebook. A large number of them are DJ-oriented. Here's the link: https://www.facebook.com/hifibars/photos_stream

[aznate27]

Have you guys been to Playground lately? It's hardly a sophisticated crowd. Also, check out some of Hi Fi's pictures on Facebook. A large number of them are DJ-oriented. Here's the link: https://www.facebook.com/hifibars/photos_stream

Hmmm...You might be right. I see that Bad Boy Bill played at Hi Fi in Scottsdale, that would be about as big a DJ music scene as it gets. It still looks like a sports bar, but if they get DJ's like Bad boy Bill to play here in Tucson, they will give Playground and Safire Lounge a run for their money. Some healthy competition might be good for downtown.

[Mark H]

Long time lurker, first time poster... really enjoy the discussion.

The latest I-11 corridor study was released this past Tuesday, I've linked the PDF below. Lots of information concerning the likely path with a nice pro/con analysis for each of the various route options. The most likely route appears to be exactly what you'd expect it to be but it gets a little interesting in Maricopa County. The "most favored" route follows the existing US-93 from Vegas (utilizing the Boulder City bypass), makes a straight-shot south just NW of Wickenburg, turns E/SE about halfway between Buckeye and Gila Bend, joins back up with I-10 near Casa Grande and follows I-10 to I-19 to Nogales. I'm cool with it as long as the funding commitment is there for the major capacity increases that will be needed re: I-10 and 19.

http://i.imgur.com/Gt8YwuE.png

http://i11study.com/wp/?page_id=237

http://i11study.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/I-11_L1_Evaluation_Results_02-11-2014_Compressed.pdf

[Thirsty]

Not sure what is different from the preliminary proposals, but it is very disappointing that there was no study done incorporating the Phoenix/Tucson bypass.

As of now the only change I-11 brings for Southern Arizona is a lot of trucks will be taken off Phoenix freeways and dumped into Tucson's.

[Sepstein]

Theres 5 differnt route maps for metro Phoenix. Alternative 1 on page 146 is best cuts in closer to loop 303. Others ones just to far out of core!

[cdsuofa]

Not sure what is different from the preliminary proposals, but it is very disappointing that there was no study done incorporating the Phoenix/Tucson bypass.

As of now the only change I-11 brings for Southern Arizona is a lot of trucks will be taken off Phoenix freeways and dumped into Tucson's.

Yea that plan is clearly made to benefit Phoenix, its basically another freeway for the westward expansion and a bypass, but whats new? I think over the past 6 or so years its been made abundantly clear that the Governor and for the most part the state legislature does not care too much about parts of Arizona not named Metro Phoenix. When was the last time the Governor was even in Tucson(the states second largest city and a metro area over 1 million ppl) if not for some sort of tragedy or national media attention via the border. She has really put little if any effort in using her status as Governor to help the Tucson Inland port theory and Mexico/AZ/Tucson economic connections as Governor. It seems as though she could care less about that connection being prosperous for Tucson/Southern AZ. And forget large amounts of state funds being invested into something not related to Phoenix in some way(unless its a border wall). This is not an attack on her political party so please do not take it that way, the last thing I want to do is get into politics, Im referring to the individual.

[southtucsonboy77]

The governor and Metro Phx don't give a damn about Tucson talk is without a doubt true. HOWEVER, in my days working for ADOT and PAG I was dumbfounded at how our jurisdictions, leaders, and small contingent (yet vocal) anti-everythings shoot down every good idea and/or concept.

Obviously Pima County has been supporting the I-11 bypass route off our current Interstates....BUT from what I've heard the City of Tucson doesn't. So naturally our region has no consensus and we look like dumbies. The Phx metro area has Phx, the East Valley cities/towns, and West Valley cities/towns...a region with far more incorporated areas and a greater number of consensus needed in regional efforts. Yet they have one uniform goal(s) in mind: Growth, Jobs, and Economic Development.

Our State reps and senators are a reflection of what our regional constituents want. So when AZ lawmakers (albeit majority are from the Phx area) get tired of our backward ways...we have no one to blame but ourselves.

[Patrick S]

Yea that plan is clearly made to benefit Phoenix, its basically another freeway for the westward expansion and a bypass, but whats new? I think over the past 6 or so years its been made abundantly clear that the Governor and for the most part the state legislature does not care too much about parts of Arizona not named Metro Phoenix. When was the last time the Governor was even in Tucson(the states second largest city and a metro area over 1 million ppl) if not for some sort of tragedy or national media attention via the border. She has really put little if any effort in using her status as Governor to help the Tucson Inland port theory and Mexico/AZ/Tucson economic connections as Governor. It seems as though she could care less about that connection being prosperous for Tucson/Southern AZ. And forget large amounts of state funds being invested into something not related to Phoenix in some way(unless its a border wall). This is not an attack on her political party so please do not take it that way, the last thing I want to do is get into politics, Im referring to the individual.
I'm no fan - at all - of Governor Brewer, but to be fair she visited Oro Valley to promote high-tech jobs just a week or so ago: http://www.fox8live.com/story/24698463/brewer-visits-oro-valley-for-high-tech-tour

She also delivered her state of the state speech in Tucson in January: http://www.kvoa.com/news/gov-jan-brewer-delivers-state-of-the-state-address-in-tucson/

[Patrick S]

Officials: S. AZ bypassed in Interstate 11 planning (http://azstarnet.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/officials-s-az-bypassed-in-interstate-planning/article_df252b52-5525-5981-8d14-f90977da078d.html)

At a time when Arizona leaders are expressing renewed interest in increasing trade with Mexico, representatives from Pima County say they are aghast that planning for a new interstate has not included Southern Arizona.

The Arizona Department of Transportation denies the snub and says the proposed Interstate 11 would run from Nevada to Mexico.

“We are looking at this holistically,” ADOT Director John Halikowski said following a contentious three-hour meeting of the state Transportation Board in Sierra Vista Friday.

But Pima County officials point to language in ADOT materials that calls a southern segment of I-11 “potential” and shows that the impact of such an interstate is being studied only in the section between Las Vegas and Phoenix.

“Discussion of Interstate 11 cannot stop in Phoenix,” Allison Moore, a spokeswoman for the Nogales-based Fresh Produce Association of the Americas, told the board. “It’s critical. The ability to ship (produce) to Canada without having to go through California makes our region more attractive.”

A portion of Interstate 11 in Pima County would help commercial truckers avoid heavy freeway traffic around Tucson and Phoenix with a bypass most recently considered to run west of Tucson through Avra Valley.

ADOT must plan for a southern spur in order to alleviate potential gridlock caused by more commercial trucks traveling to and from Mexico in coming years, said John Moffatt, director of strategic planning for Pima County.

“We need to be at the same level as the northern spur,” he said of steps underway to study potential impacts. “We need to be consistent.”

Tucson attorney and Southern Arizona Leadership Council board member Si Schorr told the transportation board that language in ADOT literature fails to ease concerns about being left out.

“ADOT’s ambition for a border-to-border strategy is belied by its actions,” he said. “If Interstate 11 is predicated on trade with Mexico, we don’t understand why only one aspect of it has been singled out as priority.”

Schorr was referring to the corridor between Las Vegas and Phoenix being labeled “priority” — something that state officials say they now regret.

“We lament using the term ‘priority,’” said Scott Omer, assistant director for ADOT’s multimodal planning division. “The whole state is priority.”

He insisted that while the proposed interstate is being studied in segments, the ultimate goal is to have it run through Southern Arizona, whether via a new bypass route or by double-decking Interstate 10.

Steve Christy, chairman of the transportation board, said the anxiety stems from ADOT staffers saying things such as “Southern Arizona is off the table regarding I-11.”

Halikowski asked for the names of employees making such remarks so he could “correct them.”

Whether Pima County is really being disregarded is a matter of opinion.

Cherie Campbell, deputy director for the Pima Association of Governments, said ADOT has not invited the group to planning meetings regarding I-11.

“Yes we have,” ADOT’s Omer told the Star.

For his part, Halikowski said he understands the angst.

“Everybody wants to ensure their seat at the table,” he said.

Following the meeting, Christy felt reassured that ADOT viewed the I-11 project as one that must run border to border.

Still, he said, “this will be a standing item on the agenda.”

If it’s ever built, Interstate 11 could become part of the federally recognized trade corridor Canamex.

The Canamex Corridor, as defined by Congress in the 1995 National Highway Systems Designation Act, involves Arizona, Nevada, Idaho, Utah and Montana and calls for the development of a continuous four-lane roadway from Mexico through the U.S. into Canada to facilitate trade among the three countries. Interstates 10 and 19 are already designated segments of the Canamex Corridor.

[cdsuofa]

"He insisted that while the proposed interstate is being studied in segments, the ultimate goal is to have it run through Southern Arizona, whether via a new bypass route or by double-decking Interstate 10"

Just the thought of Tucson trying to get a project as large as double decking I-10 makes me laugh and kinda scared lol

[Patrick S]

"He insisted that while the proposed interstate is being studied in segments, the ultimate goal is to have it run through Southern Arizona, whether via a new bypass route or by double-decking Interstate 10"

Just the thought of Tucson trying to get a project as large as double decking I-10 makes me laugh and kinda scared lol

Yeah. I don't ever see that happening.

On another transportation note. The next city council meeting is on Wednesday the 19th. A special addendum has been added to the meeting - a public hearing on whether to issue a Request for Proposals (RFP) for building a mixed-use building that also incorporates a transit center at the Ronstadt Transit Center. For those who've been on here a while, you will know this is what I've suggested many times would be a great use for this space. The City Manager is suggesting that an RFP be issued (http://www.tucsonaz.gov/sirepub/cache/2/k1syc5hobu3lktsny1klhbx5/593068502172014093202837.PDF). Here's a copy of the official "Draft Scope of Work for inclusion in RFP Phase 1": http://www.tucsonaz.gov/sirepub/cache/2/k1syc5hobu3lktsny1klhbx5/593068602172014092803457.PDF

This document says that the site should include:
- "The project should incorporate (1) a transit center, (2) private development featuring a mix of uses, and (3) public open space, which are thoughtfully integrated and serve a diversity of people working, living, and visiting downtown. Examples of types of land uses that are encouraged include housing, retail, daily services (e.g., daycare, grocery, pharmacy), employment, educational uses, and recreation and entertainment venues."
- "The design of the project should create a signature destination that integrates the arts, recognizes the community’s cultural diversity, includes sustainable/environmentally sensitive design, activates the streetscape, and offers architecture responsive to the urban historic fabric and views. Sensitivity to the needs of downtown neighborhoods, transit users, adjacent properties, and local downtown businesses is important."
- "The project should incorporate establishment of the Ronstadt Transit Center as an adaptable hub that can serve multiple modes of transportation over time, including, but not limited to, public buses, shuttles, bicycles, and pedestrians. It should provide connections to the modern streetcar and Amtrak inter-city rail, and should accommodate complementary programs and facilities such as bike share, car share, drop-offs, and taxis."
- "The project should enhance the physical infrastructure and facilities for current bus riders and increase the appeal of transit to new riders. Examples of improvements identified by community members as desirable include incorporation of retail, food, and services; better designed bathrooms; air conditioning; shade; drinking fountains; and a play area."

Definitely liking that they want this to link pedestrians, bicyclists, and bus-riders to the streetcar and to Amtrak. Also liking that they want to include retail and food into all this. Interested to see what kind of proposals they get.

[Anqrew]

I just really want something really great to happen with the RTC, I think it has so much potential to be something. I like the fact that the RFP also includes the two other empty properties to the North. those 3 properties combined as a mixed-use of transportation/retail/open space would be IMO one of downtowns most important developments. I hope we see something really ambitious.

[cdsuofa]

I agree it would be cool to see the Ronsdadt Center become like a complex as opposed to just a building. For example maybe multiple mid/highrise mixed used buildings connected over the streets with pedestrian bridges with the bottom floors main use being the downtown hub for different transportation methods. One being Suntran, one maybe Taxis or light rail, the far north lot maybe Greyhound. Those properties are right in the heart of where Tucson's Downtown has developed (more to the northeast) the most and have so much potential. I still do believe, though, that while a Suntran hub should remain there, it should be largely downsized and a new central Tucson hub should be build outside of Downtown where more space is available as well as easier bus access in a less congested area. Where exactly? I don't know honestly maybe somewhere on Stone or Broadway not too far from Downtown.

[Anqrew]

Nice new photo of Hub At Tucson
http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/insidetucsonbusiness.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/c/16/c1603e60-9a56-11e3-a375-0019bb2963f4/53063fd4cfe62.image.jpg
photo by Mark B. Evans/ITB

The swanky, sleek high-rise apartment complexes just steps from the University of Arizona, along with similarly appointed buildings downtown and close to Fourth Avenue, are wrapping up construction this year for the fall 2014 semester and bringing to a close a solid three years of building purpose-driven student housing.

By the end of this year, roughly 1,150 units constituting about 3,200 beds will be built for students, in the towers and elsewhere within blocks of UA. And university-area property owners are already feeling it.

Allan Mendelsberg, who specializes in apartment and investment sales at Picor, said as the 2013-14 school year approached, owners of smaller, dated campus-area properties got desperate and took big reductions just to fill units; in the fourth quarter of 2013, the university submarket was the only one to see a drop in rents.

can read the rest of the article here: http://www.insidetucsonbusiness.com/news/swanky-new-ua-student-towers-hitting-older-student-focused-complexes/article_7b58516e-9a56-11e3-a594-0019bb2963f4.html


While i think initially these new towers are bad for older complexes farther from campus. I think this is better for Tucson, for decades the student population has lived in a fairly large radius of campus. Now that we are seeing denser housing, a lot of students who normally would live 1-5 miles away are now less than a mile away. I think its better to get these students closer to campus. as for the student housing that is far from campus, i think its necessary for them to cater to market rate units and housing families and not just students to re-energize those neighborhoods which have been dominated by college students for so long. I think this will also benefit tucson because this will bring in more people to Tucsons core that normally would live a bit farther out. But these are just my opinions :rolleyes:

[Anqrew]

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/insidetucsonbusiness.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/2/95/29563162-9a54-11e3-b1d9-0019bb2963f4/53063b49395d1.image.jpg
photo by Hillary Davis/ITB

Tucson is a relatively stable space for retailers. It’s seen growth booms and busts, not unlike Phoenix. But unlike Phoenix, its bubble didn’t swell so high and fast.
It never got a crosstown freeway, so interstate frontage was largely reserved for industrial uses and homes and shopping were built in the city’s core. Shopping centers were never overbuilt. And it’s even closer to Mexico, home to many a weekend shopper.

So malls, those enclosed, tiled, air-conditioned and pretzel-scented bazaars, have better results than the industry stories usually tell, even with newer mall-like complexes like power centers and lifestyle centers within a few miles.

The areas around Tucson’s two large traditional malls, Tucson Mall and Park Place, remain very attractive to restaurants and shops. They’re “hubs,” said Nancy McClure, First Vice President and a retail specialist at CBRE’s Tucson office— so much so that developers are razing older, dated shopping centers in their immediate area to put up new big boxes (see accompanying story).

Because retailers never built a glut of stores, shopping real estate has always been at a premium. Typically, a retailer will go to Phoenix first, get excited about the four million-plus person market and put up 15 stores, then do two or three in Tucson just to see how it goes, then move on to another market. Because the Tucson market doesn’t get as diluted, it tends to do well.

“In Phoenix, gosh, you could blaze a new road and there will be four big shopping centers on every corner. Here, it’s harder to get a good site and also, lenders look at Tucson differently than somebody like a Phoenix because it’s a tertiary market in their mind’s eye, and so they’re going to give a new project more scrutiny than they would up in Phoenix back in the time,” she said. “I think now lenders are going to give more scrutiny to everything because they don’t want to have happen what happened up in Phoenix and Las Vegas where so much of it got overbuilt.”

Pat Darcy, retail division head at Tucson Realty & Trust, said because Tucson doesn’t have nearly as many major corners as Phoenix does, it makes sense to be by one of the malls.

Darcy said the Tucson and Park Place malls are spaced out enough that they don’t really compete with each other. At Park Place especially, on Tucson’s golden retail road of Broadway Boulevard, it can be hard to find a parking spot, he said.

“Tucson is really supporting those two malls,” Darcy said. “They say the malls are kind of dying off, but not here.”

read the rest here: http://www.insidetucsonbusiness.com/news/reports-of-the-shopping-mall-s-demise-premature/article_dd9bc962-9a53-11e3-829c-0019bb2963f4.html

another article i found interesting. I think other than Downtown, these areas are the "Hubs" like mentioned in the article, they form a nice kind of Tri-fecta of commerce. I think it would be really nice to see these Mall areas also become lively neighborhoods of themselves, I think with the 2 new restaurants opening in the Park Place Hub (Longhorn and Yardhouse) we will start to see some new development. I'm pretty sure the properties along broadway between Hobby Lobby and the new Longhorn are next to be razed, hope to see some good development there!

[aznate27]

Nice new photo of Hub At Tucson
http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/insidetucsonbusiness.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/c/16/c1603e60-9a56-11e3-a375-0019bb2963f4/53063fd4cfe62.image.jpg
photo by Mark B. Evans/ITB

The swanky, sleek high-rise apartment complexes just steps from the University of Arizona, along with similarly appointed buildings downtown and close to Fourth Avenue, are wrapping up construction this year for the fall 2014 semester and bringing to a close a solid three years of building purpose-driven student housing.

By the end of this year, roughly 1,150 units constituting about 3,200 beds will be built for students, in the towers and elsewhere within blocks of UA. And university-area property owners are already feeling it.

Allan Mendelsberg, who specializes in apartment and investment sales at Picor, said as the 2013-14 school year approached, owners of smaller, dated campus-area properties got desperate and took big reductions just to fill units; in the fourth quarter of 2013, the university submarket was the only one to see a drop in rents.

can read the rest of the article here: http://www.insidetucsonbusiness.com/news/swanky-new-ua-student-towers-hitting-older-student-focused-complexes/article_7b58516e-9a56-11e3-a594-0019bb2963f4.html


While i think initially these new towers are bad for older complexes farther from campus. I think this is better for Tucson, for decades the student population has lived in a fairly large radius of campus. Now that we are seeing denser housing, a lot of students who normally would live 1-5 miles away are now less than a mile away. I think its better to get these students closer to campus. as for the student housing that is far from campus, i think its necessary for them to cater to market rate units and housing families and not just students to re-energize those neighborhoods which have been dominated by college students for so long. I think this will also benefit tucson because this will bring in more people to Tucsons core that normally would live a bit farther out. But these are just my opinions :rolleyes:

Agreed.

[cdsuofa]

"While i think initially these new towers are bad for older complexes farther from campus. I think this is better for Tucson, for decades the student population has lived in a fairly large radius of campus. Now that we are seeing denser housing, a lot of students who normally would live 1-5 miles away are now less than a mile away. I think its better to get these students closer to campus. as for the student housing that is far from campus, i think its necessary for them to cater to market rate units and housing families and not just students to re-energize those neighborhoods which have been dominated by college students for so long. I think this will also benefit tucson because this will bring in more people to Tucsons core that normally would live a bit farther out. But these are just my opinions "

Definitely agree. These more dense areas are going to promote more of a community feel, where you walk not drive to get places. Its already shown that it promotes retail and restaurants to move into the areas and allows for a more local unique culture. While we may end up with an empty North Pointe I think the economic benefits from the new way the University/Downtown area is being put together will far outweigh things like that.

[Patrick S]

There's a questionnaire about the I-11 corridor that can be completed at this website: http://i11study.com/wp/?page_id=819. The questionnaire can only be completed until March 7th, 2014. There are actually 4 different questionnaires: one for north of Vegas, one for the Vegas area, one for the Phoenix area, and one for southern Arizona. I've only done the southern AZ one so far, and it's only 2 questions, but it's important, I think, that we voice how important we feel it is that this road be extended to our area.

[cdsuofa]

That is def kinda scary that there are a few options that completely leave Tucson out of the route. When I think about how Tucsonans are about change I get even more worried. I definitely am concerned that some Avra Valley residents will speak out against the project and the city/county will do what they always do and let some tiny, but loud, minority hold back the entire economic growth of Tucson. I give you Grand Canyon University, the 20 years of arguing about widening Kolb from Sunrise to Sabino Canyon and on and on. So many things turned down that would have improved Tucson shot down by small, but more important LOUD, minority groups that don't want anything to change for the greater good of Tucson's infrastructure and economy. Do they want their kids to have to continue to work in call centers for $11 an hr or have to move to Phoenix for a respectable salary? Of course most of them are retired and have no family in Tucson nor interest in its future because frankly they will pass away before most of it happens. Sorry for the rant Ive just been so frustrated with how the City/county rolls over for these people no matter what the greater good is for Tucson-metro. Completed survey btw everyone else please do so as well (The Southern Arizona one) http://i11study.com/wp/?page_id=819

[Patrick S]

Found something interesting in the Agenda for the March 4th, 2014 Tucson City Council Meeting: The Liquor License for Pizzeria Bianco will be up for discussion and vote. I'm sure it will be approved, and that means the establishment will be one step closer to being opened.

http://www.tucsonaz.gov/sirepub/mtgviewer.aspx?meetid=1242&doctype=AGENDA

[ProfessorMole]

Found this article from the AZ Daily Star on Feb 21st detailing some talks from each outlet.

The Avra Valley developers seem really adamant they will open first and be the only outlets even though Twin Peaks has a leg up because the site already has some infra in place.

Dueling Outlet Centers (http://azstarnet.com/business/local/dueling-outlet-centers-planned-for-northwest-tucson/article_09bd9d58-9d44-5d31-9a00-707d109c1cd8.html)

[southtucsonboy77]

From the Albuquerque Journal (http://www.abqjournal.com/359564/biz/tesla-releases-more-details-on-8220giga8221-factory.html):

Tesla Motors sent out an email Wednesday with more details on its planned $4 billion to $5 billion giga battery factory including a map showing the four finalists that includes New Mexico.

Tesla also is considering sites in Nevada, Arizona and Texas for the massive battery factory that would employ around 6,500 people.

The Palo Alto, Calif.-based company expects the factory to supply enough batteries for the 500,000 cars it hopes to make by 2020.

Tesla and partners including battery maker Panasonic will invest between $4 billion and $5 billion to build the factory, which would supply battery packs to Tesla’s Fremont, Calif., assembly plant.

“As we at Tesla reach for our goal of producing a mass market electric car in approximately three years, we have an opportunity to leverage our projected demand for lithium ion batteries to reduce their cost faster than previously thought possible,” the company said.

“In cooperation with strategic battery manufacturing partners, we’re planning to build a large scale factory that will allow us to achieve economies of scale and minimize costs through innovative manufacturing, reduction of logistics waste, optimization of co-located processes and reduced overhead,” according to the email.


Does anyone know if TREO/Tucson is in the running for this on the AZ side of things?

[ProfessorMole]

Does anyone know if TREO/Tucson is in the running for this on the AZ side of things?

Searched through as many as I could find, and it looks like it's just states as a whole listed right now. New Mexico, Texas, Arizona, and Nevada.

[cdsuofa]

Does anyone know if TREO/Tucson is in the running for this on the AZ side of things?

Im sure our Governor isn't out there putting an effort to get Tucson into the mix, even though we are the capital of cheap labor and large lots of cheap land next to the UP Rail connection to Cali/Mexico/East coast and knowing our city we'd prolly give them the land and cut most of their taxes lol. Hopefully someone is out there campaigning for Tucson. Big opportunity would be nice to see us get that

[southtucsonboy77]

Im sure our Governor isn't out there putting an effort to get Tucson into the mix, even though we are the capital of cheap labor and large lots of cheap land next to the UP Rail connection to Cali/Mexico/East coast and knowing our city we'd prolly give them the land and cut most of their taxes lol. Hopefully someone is out there campaigning for Tucson. Big opportunity would be nice to see us get that

Everything about this opportunity screamed Tucson...especially the logistics.

I noticed that the AZ Daily Star finally developed an article on this factory, but it bothers me that 1) the article came out a day after the Albq Journal 2) it was short and less detailed than the Albq Journal. I don't know, maybe its a good thing...less press...less pressure for our local leaders to screw up. All in all, we need JOBS.

Which brings up my other concern...this article: Tucson-area hotel occupancy slipped in January (http://azstarnet.com/business/local/tucson-area-hotel-occupancy-slipped-in-january/article_1aaace59-312c-5135-99e4-ebd02bd16ba6.html).

People need reasons to come to Tucson. As far as major entertainment...we are waaaay behind the times. An extemely limited amount of promoters/shows are willing to perform at the TCC (excuse me, Tucson Arena). We don't have a major concert venue. I went to the George Strait concert (don't judge me) last month and the hotel I stayed at was loaded with people from Tucson. I felt ashamed, but if the wife wants to go to George Strait and its in Phoenix...then I gotta do what I gotta do. We are "renovating" the Arena, but we're putting lipstick on a pig. Is it gonna raise the ceiling of the arena? The height is outdated and for concerts that have fantastic pyrotechnics...the arena doesn't work. I mean, not even the WWE does shows here anymore. (This rant is based on a news story I saw last night).

Anyhow, this is all inter-connected...jobs...economic development...tourism...entertainment. Its frustrating.

[ppdd]

Does anyone know if TREO/Tucson is in the running for this on the AZ side of things?

This type of project would probably have come through the Arizona Commerce Authority pipeline and Tucson sites would have been included in a response if they fit the requirements.

Generally, 6,500 employees is really pushing the project size that could be considered here due to availability of ready workforce. Ironically, our lowish unemployment rate hurts us when looking at these numbers. (The plant would instantly become our 4th largest private employer.) We certainly have some points that make sense, but there are a number of complications.

[Patrick S]

Everything about this opportunity screamed Tucson...especially the logistics.

I noticed that the AZ Daily Star finally developed an article on this factory, but it bothers me that 1) the article came out a day after the Albq Journal 2) it was short and less detailed than the Albq Journal. I don't know, maybe its a good thing...less press...less pressure for our local leaders to screw up. All in all, we need JOBS.

Which brings up my other concern...this article: Tucson-area hotel occupancy slipped in January (http://azstarnet.com/business/local/tucson-area-hotel-occupancy-slipped-in-january/article_1aaace59-312c-5135-99e4-ebd02bd16ba6.html).

People need reasons to come to Tucson. As far as major entertainment...we are waaaay behind the times. An extemely limited amount of promoters/shows are willing to perform at the TCC (excuse me, Tucson Arena). We don't have a major concert venue. I went to the George Strait concert (don't judge me) last month and the hotel I stayed at was loaded with people from Tucson. I felt ashamed, but if the wife wants to go to George Strait and its in Phoenix...then I gotta do what I gotta do. We are "renovating" the Arena, but we're putting lipstick on a pig. Is it gonna raise the ceiling of the arena? The height is outdated and for concerts that have fantastic pyrotechnics...the arena doesn't work. I mean, not even the WWE does shows here anymore. (This rant is based on a news story I saw last night).

Anyhow, this is all inter-connected...jobs...economic development...tourism...entertainment. Its frustrating.

While I agree that a drop from 55.7% occupancy rate to 54.1% from January 2013 and January 2014 is not a good thing, the article didn't address whether this may have been caused by an increase in the number of hotel rooms. I don't know if this is the case or not, but an increase in the number of rooms available could decrease the percent filled, even as it increases the number filled. Say you have 100 rooms. If 50% are filled you obviously have 50 filled. If you build 50 more rooms, but your rate goes down to 40%, you still have 10 more filled, for a total of 60 filled. This is just speculation. With the horrible winter the northeast and midwest is having you would think that hotels would be filled more this year than last (I'd be interested to see if there's a jump in home sales after this winter). Of course, it did say that the Phoenix area had an increase in occupancy rate (though it didn't say from what to what), and if we added hotel rooms, I'm sure they added even more than we did, so there rate would in essence be even more impressive.

[Thirsty]

Mexican Sugar coming to Port of Tucson (http://azstarnet.com/business/local/mexican-sugar-firm-coming-to-tucson-with-plans-to-hire/article_7c9cdfea-4633-5e21-9787-18c9782effb8.html)

...

The Port of Tucson’s ability to bring the sugar up from Mexico by rail sealed the deal, Rionda said

...

Tucson could be the place where the company’s five U.S. distribution sites are consolidated in the future, Rionda said.

“It is one of the few facilities in the U.S. that has that capability — in essence their own railroad,” he said. “We feel we can service all West Coast markets from there.”


Small announcement, but still big news. Even without Punta Colonet or the Baja rail link, the recent focus on utilizing the city's rail resources is paying off. Hopefully this sort of cross-boarder development takes off and positions Tucson strongly if Punta Colonet is ever built.

[cdsuofa]

:runaway:Anyhow, this is all inter-connected...jobs...economic development...tourism...entertainment. Its frustrating.

Im glad to hear somebody say this. Because it is more interconnected than most think. Operations like this whether it be factories, regional corporate offices, distribution center.. really whatever. One of the main factors is quality of life in said City. Are there roads to get our employees to work easily? Are there quality schools? Is there entertainment in the city for our employees? Will educated people stay in this city? And then come the questions that directly relate to the business. Is there existing rail infrastructure? Is there existing interstate infrastructure? Can the city accommodate business visitors with nice accommodations/airport and tourist activities? Anyway one could go on and on with these.. and they really do make a huge impression on if these projects do locate to said city. Point... Tucson cant just throw tax incentives at companies, they need to improve in these areas as well.
Its also good to hear that sugar is being imported directly to Tucson from Mexico. Just another step in the right direction to making Tucson an inland port.

[Ted Lyons]

The newest issue of Zocalo came out today and the One East Broadway ad in it says they only have one open unit left. IIRC, the ad in last month's issue said seven units were left. Maxing out occupancy this quickly will hopefully be a sign to other developers.

[InTheBurbs]

There were a couple of items of interest in the mayor's State of the City Address the other week. Both were reported in the news before, but may be closer to reality.

* "Perhaps as early as this summer, we will have nonstop flights from Tucson to Hermosillo..." (previous flights to Hermosillo ended in 2008).

* Speaking of downtown development: "Over the next year...You’ll see ground broken on a new, modern, urban hotel"

Full text of speech here (http://blogforarizona.net/?p=22440)

[ProfessorMole]

* Speaking of downtown development: "Over the next year...You’ll see ground broken on a new, modern, urban hotel"

He's gotta be talking about the AC right? Hadn't heard of any others yet.

[InTheBurbs]

He's gotta be talking about the AC right? Hadn't heard of any others yet.

I'm assuming he was talking about the AC as well.

Also, in the latest reports on the Tesla factory, Tucson isn't mentioned as a possible location.

KOAT (http://www.koat.com/news/new-mexico/albuquerque/california-analysts-like-new-mexico-for-tesla-plant/24793132) in Albuquerque reports that ABQ is in the lead over Phoenix, Reno and Austin (http://www.koat.com/news/new-mexico/albuquerque/train-tracks-will-play-factor-in-connecting-duke-city-gigafactory/24787768).

And the Phoenix Business Journal (http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2014/02/26/arizona-in-running-for-5-billion.html) says Tesla has been looking at sites in the Phoenix area.

[ppdd]

I'm assuming he was talking about the AC as well.

Also, in the latest reports on the Tesla factory, Tucson isn't mentioned as a possible location.

KOAT (http://www.koat.com/news/new-mexico/albuquerque/california-analysts-like-new-mexico-for-tesla-plant/24793132) in Albuquerque reports that ABQ is in the lead over Phoenix, Reno and Austin (http://www.koat.com/news/new-mexico/albuquerque/train-tracks-will-play-factor-in-connecting-duke-city-gigafactory/24787768).

And the Phoenix Business Journal (http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2014/02/26/arizona-in-running-for-5-billion.html) says Tesla has been looking at sites in the Phoenix area.

The Tesla project won't end up in Tucson.

[sh9730]

The Tesla project won't end up in Tucson.

Who knows - Im amazed at how tight lipped city leaders and staff have managed to stay (in all the competing states) on possible sites.

However, IF IF IF it were to come to AZ, it wouldnt completely surprise me to see it somewhere in Pinal County - maybe Casa Grande. All the rail is in place, and there are large swaths of CHEAP land available suitable for the wind/solar power they plan on using to power the factory....

A negative factor is a workforce though - at present that would mean a reverse commute for people in Tucson/Phoenix - especially when (not so much if anymore) the Phoenixmart project is completed and much of the local available workforce is sucked up for that....although they are completely different types of labor of course.

I ve read a couple of articles that HINT Pinal county is high on the list of AZ sites, but who the heck knows....?

[ppdd]

Who knows - Im amazed at how tight lipped city leaders and staff have managed to stay (in all the competing states) on possible sites.

However, IF IF IF it were to come to AZ, it wouldnt completely surprise me to see it somewhere in Pinal County - maybe Casa Grande. All the rail is in place, and there are large swaths of CHEAP land available suitable for the wind/solar power they plan on using to power the factory....

A negative factor is a workforce though - at present that would mean a reverse commute for people in Tucson/Phoenix - especially when (not so much if anymore) the Phoenixmart project is completed and much of the local available workforce is sucked up for that....although they are completely different types of labor of course.

I ve read a couple of articles that HINT Pinal county is high on the list of AZ sites, but who the heck knows....?

The cost of the land is inconsequential to a project like this. Hiring 6,500 people in Pinal County would be even harder that it would be in Pima County (nearly impossible) and while the rail infrastructure is nice, water and power infrastructure are more important. I don't believe CG can support the demands required.

Getting commuters from the two metro areas would be a challenge - though it would be great reason to get a Phoenix <--> Tucson rail connection going.

[Ted Lyons]

My question here (and all this does is serve to undermine Albuquerque's chances as well) is how can Albuquerque be competitive if Tucson isn't?

[ppdd]

My question here (and all this does is serve to undermine Albuquerque's chances as well) is how can Albuquerque be competitive if Tucson isn't?

That's certainly a great question, given how I've framed the problem (workforce) :). Albuquerque may be on somewhat even footing with Tucson as far as workforce supply - often that's considered the case. Phoenix would have an easier time supplying labor. Albuquerque may have other advantages like lack of political controversy or real advantages regarding water or power or transportation access. Not really sure. I'd be surprised if Tesla ended up there, or Reno (though Reno is closer to the SF Bay area).

[Anqrew]

Just thought I'd share this photo I thought was great from the Tucson Streetcar Facebook Page.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/1798320_596811133728851_320191387_n.jpg

[cdsuofa]

Albuquerque has done a much better job than Tucson IMO developing itself from a large town to a million plus metro area city. They are almost our twin having both an Air Force Base and University as the anchors of their city, although UNM is nowhere near as good of an education nor as large as the U of A. While they have the benefit of being the main priority of the state while we have Phoenix and its suburbs to compete with over everything they seem to attract more national events, they have better freeway infrastructure, they have better recreation (example: the Sandia Peak Tramway which is pretty cool ive been on it), they have worked hard to improve industries such as film and music where they are starting to become quite successful (recent example being Breaking Bad), their sports teams especially their minor league baseball has been handled better than ours and is extremely popular. I guess my point is they are a less attractive destination than Tucson for retirees and people trying to avoid the cold, import/export, proximity to one of the largest metro areas in the country, as well as the massive amount of highly well educated people our University puts out (most of whom leave Tucson to find work) so we should have the edge on them in where we are in the growth of our cities economy/infrastructure etc but we really aren't, we are almost in the exact same spots in our growth.

[southtucsonboy77]

Albuquerque is a small town fighting to be a big city...and Tucson is a big city fighting to be a small town. They have a strong mayoral system...just like Phoenix...where Tucson is a Council/Manager run city with a competitive and massive unincorporated County with a strong County manager. We're all f@#$ed up. Rio Rancho is a nice complement to Albuquerque...we have Marana/Oro Valley.

The 2000s was a good decade for Albuquerque (I lived there in the 90s and it was not a cool place to be). They re-developed their downtown, fought to bring back their AAA Isotopes and have strongly supported that team. cdsuofa pointed out alot of good attributes to the city. I remember Gov. Richardson and the mayor of Albq. declaring that they were gonna bring an NFL team to the Duke City! It was a pipe dream...but I loved the enthusiasm. They want big things for the city.

However, I feel the 2010s has been a good decade for Tucson thus far. I hope we can close it out even stronger. Albuquerque is isolated, for good and bad, Tucson is not. Tucson needs to build on the good we have and not let the loonies ruin it all. IMHO, for the region...I feel Marana is gonna be the key.

[ppdd]

Albuquerque is a small town fighting to be a big city...and Tucson is a big city fighting to be a small town. They have a strong mayoral system...just like Phoenix...where Tucson is a Council/Manager run city with a competitive and massive unincorporated County with a strong County manager. We're all f@#$ed up. Rio Rancho is a nice complement to Albuquerque...we have Marana/Oro Valley.

The 2000s was a good decade for Albuquerque (I lived there in the 90s and it was not a cool place to be). They re-developed their downtown, fought to bring back their AAA Isotopes and have strongly supported that team. cdsuofa pointed out alot of good attributes to the city. I remember Gov. Richardson and the mayor of Albq. declaring that they were gonna bring an NFL team to the Duke City! It was a pipe dream...but I loved the enthusiasm. They want big things for the city.

However, I feel the 2010s has been a good decade for Tucson thus far. I hope we can close it out even stronger. Albuquerque is isolated, for good and bad, Tucson is not. Tucson needs to build on the good we have and not let the loonies ruin it all. IMHO, for the region...I feel Marana is gonna be the key.

The "isolated" point here is a good one. Tucson/Phoenix and the Sun Corridor create a economic zone that dwarfs all of New Mexico. Tucson can leverage the assets of the Phoenix area as needed, but Albuquerque is the largest game in town.

[cdsuofa]

Albuquerque is a small town fighting to be a big city...and Tucson is a big city fighting to be a small town. They have a strong mayoral system...just like Phoenix...where Tucson is a Council/Manager run city with a competitive and massive unincorporated County with a strong County manager. We're all f@#$ed up. Rio Rancho is a nice complement to Albuquerque...we have Marana/Oro Valley.

The 2000s was a good decade for Albuquerque (I lived there in the 90s and it was not a cool place to be). They re-developed their downtown, fought to bring back their AAA Isotopes and have strongly supported that team. cdsuofa pointed out alot of good attributes to the city. I remember Gov. Richardson and the mayor of Albq. declaring that they were gonna bring an NFL team to the Duke City! It was a pipe dream...but I loved the enthusiasm. They want big things for the city.

However, I feel the 2010s has been a good decade for Tucson thus far. I hope we can close it out even stronger. Albuquerque is isolated, for good and bad, Tucson is not. Tucson needs to build on the good we have and not let the loonies ruin it all. IMHO, for the region...I feel Marana is gonna be the key.

Good post. I agree that this decade is going more in our favor so far with a more enthusiastic and involved mayor atm and like we both said in our posts Tucson definitely has more going for it in many aspects many of which you mentioned. Tucson had previously lacked any enthusiasm or excitement for what could be, like ABQ had and we could never organize all of our government entities like the County board, City council and Mayor all on the same page to get anything done. Of course we all know the major issue of the loud group of mostly part time residents or retirees that shoot down every major project no matter the greater benefit to the City. Our City Council needs to stop getting spooked by these small groups because there will always be one. If X is beneficial to the greater good of the city and slightly impacts a small group they need to grow a pair and tell them sorry, but this will benefit many many more people than its slightly upsetting and Im sure you will get over it in a week or two. One lovely example is the group trying to keep the f-35 out of DM when the A-10 goes out of service leaving one of our main employers and economic contributors with no main mission most likely resulting in large downsizing. Ive read the sound statistics its nothing we cant deal with and before you tell me that's easy to say if you don't live in the flight path I live at 22nd and Alvernon and after a week you don't even notice the sound anymore. I think two big indicators of how this decade will go will be if Union Pacific gets to build its rail yard north of Tucson and the Canamex route doesn't completely miss Tucson, they either decide on the Avra valley route or directly through Tucson.

[farmerk]

Good post. .... If X is beneficial to the greater good of the city and slightly impacts a small group they need to grow a pair and tell them sorry, but this will benefit many many more people than its slightly upsetting and Im sure you will get over it in a week or two. ....

"tell them sorry" is kinda nice. I'd say to go "f***" themselves . :D

Tucson really doesn't have any choice but to Go Up. Population keeps growing despite a few bumps and it's part of the Sun Corridor.

I've been googling about Tesla's Gigafactory and it doesn't look like Arizona will have a chance. One link mentions that the Union Pacific runs through Tucson...and so does El Paso and Albuquerque. But you'll never know ...

[Patrick S]

Albuquerque is a small town fighting to be a big city...and Tucson is a big city fighting to be a small town. They have a strong mayoral system...just like Phoenix...where Tucson is a Council/Manager run city with a competitive and massive unincorporated County with a strong County manager. We're all f@#$ed up. Rio Rancho is a nice complement to Albuquerque...we have Marana/Oro Valley.

The 2000s was a good decade for Albuquerque (I lived there in the 90s and it was not a cool place to be). They re-developed their downtown, fought to bring back their AAA Isotopes and have strongly supported that team. cdsuofa pointed out alot of good attributes to the city. I remember Gov. Richardson and the mayor of Albq. declaring that they were gonna bring an NFL team to the Duke City! It was a pipe dream...but I loved the enthusiasm. They want big things for the city.

However, I feel the 2010s has been a good decade for Tucson thus far. I hope we can close it out even stronger. Albuquerque is isolated, for good and bad, Tucson is not. Tucson needs to build on the good we have and not let the loonies ruin it all. IMHO, for the region...I feel Marana is gonna be the key.
Granted, I haven't lived in Albuquerque, like you have, but I think your characterization of the ABQ. is a little unfair. The city's population was over 545,000 in 2010, while Tucson's was a little over 520,000. In fact, with a growth rate of 21.7% between 2000 and 2010 (Tucson's was 6.9%) the city passed Tucson to become the 32nd largest city in the country. The city has an estimated 2012 population of over 555,000 (an increase of 1.8% since 2010), while Tucson's 2012 estimated population was over 524,000 (an increase of only 0.8%). Now, they're metropolitan area population is about 90,000 less than Tucson's, but they have a larger metropolitan area population than El Paso (which had a population of almost 650,000 in 2010 and has a growth rate of 3.6% since then and is now over 672,000). ABQ has a Triple-A baseball team, we don't even have a single-A team. Though like Tucson International Airport they don't have any international flights (though I did see an article this last week saying TIA may soon have flights to Hermosillo), they do have flights to JFK in NYC (we have no flights to NYC). In fact, their airport had over 5.8 million passengers in 2010, TIA had less than 1.8 million in 2011.

This actually leads me to another point. Though I think we have many advantages because of our close proximity to Phoenix, I think there are some advantages to Albuquerque's relative isolation. If you're a business or company (or a touring musical act for that matter) and you want to locate in Arizona, where do you go? Most likely Phoenix. We usually don't stand a chance against that behemoth up the road. Albuquerque is 445 miles - over 6 hours drive (on I-25) south of Denver, and 268 miles - about a 3 hours 40 minute drive (I-25) north of El Paso. You want a foothold in New Mexico, you go to Albuquerque. You want a foothold between El Paso and Denver, you go to ABQ. Now, many businesses start out in Phoenix and eventually open offices or restaurants or whatever down here, but many don't. They stay in Phoenix. If you're flying into tucson, many people fly to Phoenix and drive down I-10. If you're flying to ABQ, you're flying to ABQ (or if you're flying to Santa Fe, which is a pretty big tourist destination).

But the main reason I'd say ABQ is just as big a city as Tucson - the metro GDP (http://proximityone.com/metrogdp.htm). ABQ's metro GDP in 2012 was 38.784 billion, an increase of 2.416 billion since 2009 (a 6.64% increase). Tucson's metro GDP in 2012 was 33.353 billion, an increase of 1.754 billion since 2009 (5.55% increase). So, even though the ABQ MSA has almost 100,000 less people, it has a higher GDP than the Tucson MSA (I'm assuming they're using the ABQ MSA and not the ABQ-Santa Fe-Las Vegas, NM Combined Statistical Area - which had a population of almost 1.15 million in 2010 - since they list Santa Fe's MSA separately).

I love Tucson, but I think it's safe to say if you're going to say Tucson is a big city then you have to say Albuquerque is too.

[cdsuofa]

"tell them sorry" is kinda nice. I'd say to go "f***" themselves . :D

haha yea I like ur response better. But all jokes aside this has been a real issue for our growth. There r so many projects I can think of that the city or county voted down because of a small group of opposition that makes it seems like nobody wants these things bcuz they r the only ones on the news crying or protesting or whatever. in so many cases they have scared the city r county into delaying or voting down projects. A few examples off the top of my head are the GCU campus(I hope they r visiting their historic golf course weekly), expanding Kolb between Sabino canyon and sunrise(been in limbo for 20 years and that stretch has just gotten much much worse as well as dangerous), The El Con Mall issues(every addition has been protested and made a huge ordeal), the small group that doesn't want the rail yard built south of Picacho Peak(Cmon the peak is next to one of the busiest stretches of freeway in the country its not going to disturb anyone), a few Avra Valley residents making it clear that they will die before a freeway can be built through there(expansion into that valley is happening and will continue its inevitable why not have a freeway to use?) and there have been mny more. Ita a serious issue how our boards just tuck their tail between their legs and turn things down that will greatly benefit the greater population

[Patrick S]

Tucson going after Tesla's 6,500 new jobs (http://azstarnet.com/business/local/tucson-going-after-tesla-s-new-jobs/article_8780e877-50d4-5e02-b334-3cbc671aa521.html)

The city of Tucson has made a formal proposal to become the home of a $5 billion “gigafactory” for lithium-ion batteries for electric cars.

Tesla Motors Inc.’s planned 10 million-square-foot plant would need up to 1,000 acres of land and create about 6,500 jobs.

Mayor Jonathan Rothschild said land within the city has been identified with access to the Union Pacific mainline and the interstates.

He also said the city has tax incentives to add to whatever tax incentives are offered by the Arizona Commerce Authority to lure Tesla to the state.

Rothschild said he could not disclose any other information on the city’s proposal.

“But I can say I look forward to meeting with Tesla officials and impressing them with what we have to offer,” he said. “Tesla’s founder wants to put men on Mars and power the world with solar. All our efforts in the state ought to be to bring Tesla to Tucson.”

“We are the home to the Mars exploratory mission at the University of Arizona and known nationally as the Solar City,” Rothschild said. “I think Tesla will feel right at home in Tucson.”

Aside from Arizona, Tesla is looking at sites in Nevada, New Mexico and Texas for the plant, the company has said.

Meanwhile, Mesa Mayor Scott Smith — who is running for governor — announced that he had sent Tesla CEO Elon Musk an invitation to visit Arizona.

“Arizona is on the short list for electric-car maker Tesla Motors’ $5 billion-dollar battery plant along with 6,500 high-value jobs,” Smith wrote in an email from his campaign, announcing the invitation. “The move would complement Arizona’s aggressive push to make manufacturing a central component of our growing economy.”

While officials from the three other states in the running for the Tesla plant have all made statements about Tesla, this is the first time officials in Arizona have spoken about the state being considered.

“We are proud to hear that Arizona is among the finalists,” the letter to Musk said. “Tesla can join companies such as Intel, Boeing, Apple, Raytheon and Honeywell that have chosen to locate a substantial manufacturing presence in our state.”

The letter goes on to say Arizona has a skilled workforce, business-friendly tax structure and quality education.

“Regardless of where you might choose to locate within Arizona, you can be assured that infrastructure will be available to meet your needs,” it reads.

Aside from Smith, the current president of the U.S. Conference of Mayors, the letter was co-signed by Avondale Mayor Marie Lopez Rogers, immediate past president of the National League of Cities.

It was written on Maricopa Association of Government letterhead.

In response to emailed questions, CEO of Tucson Regional Economic Opportunities Inc. Joe Snell wrote: “We believe that Southern Arizona is an ideal fit for Tesla’s new gigafactory.”

The key things Tesla has said it needs in a new site are “innovative manufacturing, reduction of logistics waste, optimization of co-located processes and reduced overhead.”

Analysts commenting to news outlets in the three other states have said a unique-approach proposal would get Tesla’s attention.

One unique approach is a program called Global Advantage.

It is a partnership between the University of Arizona Tech Parks and The Offshore Group that offers research and development at the tech park with manufacturing capabilities in Sonora. The program was recently endorsed by the governors of Sonora and Arizona.

“Global Advantage and the region Arizona-Sonora can bring a competitive advantage to Tesla,” said Offshore President Luis Felipe Seldner III. “This program distinguishes our region from the states we are competing with.”

Offshore owns and operates large industrial parks in Guaymas and Empalme, Sonora, and already has clients who are suppliers to Tesla, he said.

Seldner said what Telsa wants is available through this program — the expertise from the University of Arizona, solar and renewable energy initiatives in the region, simplified logistics and access to every market by road, rail and sea through the Port of Guaymas.

“We have exactly what Tesla is looking for,” Seldner said.

He said the Arizona Commerce Authority — which has taken the lead on wooing Tesla — has not approached Global Advantage about submitting a proposal.

Commerce Authority’s CEO Sandra Watson could not be reached for comment.

Tesla said it plans to directly invest $2 billion in the new plant, with the rest of the $5 billion coming from its partners.

A company timeline shows Tesla wants to pick the site this year, construct the facility in 2015 and begin production by 2017.

Last week, the company announced plans to add 30 new service centers and stores in Europe. The “supercharger” locations will let Tesla’s Model S cars travel longer distances, officials said.

Shares of Tesla stock are up around 600 percent in the past year. A recent analysis by Bloomberg News said the company is “the highest-flying automobile stock in at least two decades.”

Musk, the company founder, was born in South Africa and became a millionaire in his late twenties when he sold his company Zip2 to Compaq Computers. He helped launch PayPal in 2000, founded Space Explorations Technologies Corp. in 2002 and Tesla Motors in 2003.

In 2012, Musk launched the first commercial vehicle to the International Space Station.

[Thirsty]

Lots of re/developement in the Daily Star this weekend.

South Sixth glows again at repurposed grocery
http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/azstarnet.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/c/b5/cb573b13-b61f-5efb-90d4-48ebe8a43961/531a582a05274.preview-620.jpg (http://azstarnet.com/business/local/south-sixth-glows-again-at-repurposed-grocery/article_866eacf1-2437-56c3-a7c7-3eee0deb6153.html)

....

Also, I was a little surprised that there had previously been NO plan to run the trolley late on Thurs/Fri nights (http://azstarnet.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/streetcar-may-stop-running-before-bars-close-at-night/article_2fcbd9c2-2897-57f0-8967-4f29208543b7.html) a.k.a. the time of the week 4th ave. is crawling with people.!!!

Ya know, it really is hard to stay mad at local government. If they were even mildly competant there really wouldn't be much to talk about here. :D

[farmerk]

Tucson going after Tesla's 6,500 new jobs (http://azstarnet.com/business/local/tucson-going-after-tesla-s-new-jobs/article_8780e877-50d4-5e02-b334-3cbc671aa521.html)
...
The city of Tucson has made a formal proposal to become the home of a $5 billion “gigafactory” for lithium-ion batteries for electric cars.
...


Don't know what they have in Albuquerque or even Phoenix but Tucson may have a shot at this after reading that article. Didn't know Mexico is a big supplier of Tesla. And Tucson does have it's own international rail port (http://azstarnet.com/business/local/port-here-now-servicing-international-rail-cargo/article_ff959475-e338-5fb9-b908-97d0f5263c40.html) .

Trying to figure out where they could build this gigantic factory. Perhaps Kolb/I-10 or Houghton/I-10...rail is close by and there's a lot of empty space around that area. Keep our fingers crossed

[ppdd]

Don't know what they have in Albuquerque or even Phoenix but Tucson may have a shot at this after reading that article. Didn't know Mexico is a big supplier of Tesla. And Tucson does have it's own international rail port (http://azstarnet.com/business/local/port-here-now-servicing-international-rail-cargo/article_ff959475-e338-5fb9-b908-97d0f5263c40.html) .

Trying to figure out where they could build this gigantic factory. Perhaps Kolb/I-10 or Houghton/I-10...rail is close by and there's a lot of empty space around that area. Keep our fingers crossed

One thing worth noting regarding proximity to rail: Phoenix is not on the UP main line - it's a spur. Tucson is better for rail access.

[southtucsonboy77]

One thing worth noting regarding proximity to rail: Phoenix is not on the UP main line - it's a spur. Tucson is better for rail access.

Dusting off my Econ Dev experience and knowledge...Tucson is the logical choice. If our local workforce "pool" is considered weak...a major manufacturing outfit will not only look locally, but statewide. Statewide, we definitely have the #s. We forget sometimes that people will relocate to the Tucson area. We have desirable communities on the outskirts such as Marana, Oro Valley, the Foothills, Vail, and even Sahuarita. The Tucson Mountains is another place we cannot forget. Since we were on the Albq discussion, Intel built a plant in Rio Rancho (I want to say in the 90s?) In no shape or form did Albq have the workforce to fill in all the projected jobs. People relocated, graduates came in, and the University system developed degrees and programs tailored fit for employment at Intel.

The only mystery(ies) is: did Tucson come in too late? Do we have a bad enough business friendly reputation to discourage a move here? And is someone else out there flaunting some kick a$$ incentives that we cannot match? If TREO found out about Tesla relatively around the same time I brought up the topic on this Thread...then TREO is not doing their job.

[ppdd]

Dusting off my Econ Dev experience and knowledge...Tucson is the logical choice. If our local workforce "pool" is considered weak...a major manufacturing outfit will not only look locally, but statewide. Statewide, we definitely have the #s. We forget sometimes that people will relocate to the Tucson area. We have desirable communities on the outskirts such as Marana, Oro Valley, the Foothills, Vail, and even Sahuarita. The Tucson Mountains is another place we cannot forget. Since we were on the Albq discussion, Intel built a plant in Rio Rancho (I want to say in the 90s?) In no shape or form did Albq have the workforce to fill in all the projected jobs. People relocated, graduates came in, and the University system developed degrees and programs tailored fit for employment at Intel.

The only mystery(ies) is: did Tucson come in too late? Do we have a bad enough business friendly reputation to discourage a move here? And is someone else out there flaunting some kick a$$ incentives that we cannot match? If TREO found out about Tesla relatively around the same time I brought up the topic on this Thread...then TREO is not doing their job.

You make some good points, certainly, and all those factors can offset the challenge; it may come down to how quickly the employment will need to scale to peak. We have had extreme challenges filling 1000 call center jobs, and jobs with skills and qualification are even harder. 6500 jobs is a huge challenge - but workforce supply will be an issue in any city, so maybe it will be less of a problem than it seems. Many jobs will have to be brought in - maybe the Mexico connection will be able to offset...

I don't think there's really a template for incentives available to this type of project. Even if they get $100 million in incentives, that's not big part of a project this size. There are so my unusual requirement for this project, it's hard to predict what will be deemed critical for Tesla. I still don't think this project will end up in Tucson, but it's hard to see where it will land on the shortlist they've floated.

Also, I can assure you that TREO knew about this project long before you did.

[southtucsonboy77]

You make some good points, certainly, and all those factors can offset the challenge; it may come down to how quickly the employment will need to scale to peak. We have had extreme challenges filling 1000 call center jobs, and jobs with skills and qualification are even harder. 6500 jobs is a huge challenge - but it will be in any city, so maybe that will be less of an issue. May jobs will have to be brought in - maybe the Mexico connection will be able to offset...

I don't think there's really a template for incentives available to this type of project. Even if they get $100 million in incentives, that's not big part of a project this size. There are so my unusual requirement for this project, it's hard to predict what will be deemed critical for Tesla. I still don't think this project will end up in Tucson, but it's hard to see where it will land on the shortlist they've floated.

Also, I can assure you that TREO knew about this project long before you did.

I truly hope so ppdd! But we gotta be positive...I keep telling myself, "We will get Tesla. We will get Tesla." Lol.

[Patrick S]

You make some good points, certainly, and all those factors can offset the challenge; it may come down to how quickly the employment will need to scale to peak. We have had extreme challenges filling 1000 call center jobs, and jobs with skills and qualification are even harder. 6500 jobs is a huge challenge - but workforce supply will be an issue in any city, so maybe it will be less of a problem than it seems. Many jobs will have to be brought in - maybe the Mexico connection will be able to offset...

I don't think there's really a template for incentives available to this type of project. Even if they get $100 million in incentives, that's not big part of a project this size. There are so my unusual requirement for this project, it's hard to predict what will be deemed critical for Tesla. I still don't think this project will end up in Tucson, but it's hard to see where it will land on the shortlist they've floated.

Also, I can assure you that TREO knew about this project long before you did.
I totally agree that the city and TREO knew about this project long before any of us did. The city has already submitted their proposal to Tesla. That's not something you slap together. It takes months to work on, especially if you want to get taken seriously. I'm hoping when a company wants to spend $5 Billion and employ 6,500 people with high-paying jobs, you want to get taken seriously.

I do disagree that there aren't many other favorable sites on the short-list provided by Tesla. I don't know the exact cities being mentioned in the 4 states being considered, but there are many areas this plant could land in. Las Vegas and Phoenix would both be big cities with good access to Southern California. Reno would be a smaller city, but with great access to Northern California (both Sacramento and the San Francisco Bay area which has some great universities - Stanford and UC Berkley at the top of that list). One could easily see Texas getting this plant - whether it be the Dallas Metroplex, Houston, Austin, or even San Antonio. I'd say El Paso is a much more unlikely place. Austin, for example, has a large and major university (U of Texas) and has a growing hi-tech cluster of core businesses. Plus Texas is more centrally located and provides better access to the Midwest and East Coast, the Southern US, as well as the West Coast.

[ppdd]

I do disagree that there aren't many other favorable sites on the short-list provided by Tesla. I don't know the exact cities being mentioned in the 4 states being considered, but there are many areas this plant could land in. Las Vegas and Phoenix would both be big cities with good access to Southern California. Reno would be a smaller city, but with great access to Northern California (both Sacramento and the San Francisco Bay area which has some great universities - Stanford and UC Berkley at the top of that list). One could easily see Texas getting this plant - whether it be the Dallas Metroplex, Houston, Austin, or even San Antonio. I'd say El Paso is a much more unlikely place. Austin, for example, has a large and major university (U of Texas) and has a growing hi-tech cluster of core businesses. Plus Texas is more centrally located and provides better access to the Midwest and East Coast, the Southern US, as well as the West Coast.

I wasn't saying that there weren't favorable sites, I was saying that it's very hard to predict the factors that will be viewed most favorably, or the challenges that will be deemed manageable. This project is largely unprecedented due to the size and the particular nature of the company (Tesla).

[AustinBear]

Patrick, et. al.
I think there are some logistical points that must be made, that some people have mentioned before, but they bear repeating. yes, everyone talks about Phoenix probably having a better shot, and you could think that....Phoenix has bigger freeways, a bigger downtown, bigger Airport, bigger this, bigger that. What Phoenix doesn't have, within easy reach, is the available land to put a plant in like that, without it being located a god awful drive from that big downtown, or that big airport. Phoenix may have bigger freeways, but look at the amount of traffic on those freeways. It may have a bigger airport, but how much room does Sky Harbor have to expand?

That's the problem with being the big everything. You can only brag about that so much before someone brings up some uncomfortable details that you just can't gloss over.

Patrick, you mentioned Austin.....have you BEEN to Austin lately? I live there, and our traffic is monumentally shitty...and we've got more freeways than Tucson does. We're practically becoming Seattle where Rush Hour lasts all day. I've lived in Austin for 20 years, and I've seen the metro area add about a million people within that time frame.
Could we handle a plant for 6500 workers? Probably....Hell, Dell is headquartered here, and we've got 15000 employees or so, give or take. But again, our highway traffic is FUGLY, and that would be a major PITA for us to deal with, if you're looking at a manufacturing facility. the only possible place I could see us doing it is further out east, where we've got a tollway bypass for I-35, but traffic on I-35 still stinks to high heaven north of Austin or south of it. We've got another tollway that heads south and connects to I-10, but I've done the drive on I10 between there and Houston....and 10 sucks rocks.

Dallas and Houston are bigshots too, but their infrastructure issues are just as challenging if not moreso than Austins...and they've gotten so big, that a plant like this is going to have to be located out in the middle of sodomized egypt.

Just to get back at tucson, vs. Phoenix, vs. ABQ, vs. Vegas. vs. El Paso.

when I look at those other 4 cities, I see them not having, what Tucson does.
Tucson has the University of Arizona, one of the top research universities in the country. I haven't looked into great detail at ASU, or UNLV or UNM, or UTEP, but I can almost bet that Tucson graduates more geeks in far more diverse engineering and technical fields than the others.

The other thing that Tucson has is it's RAIL Infrastructure. Let some of the jackass naysayers who post on the Arizona Daily star about the inland Port of Tucson, but dangit guys, that's a huge plus for your city. Yeah Phoenix is just as close to pacific coast markets as Tucson is...but Tucson has the rail system, Phoenix does not, by comparison. i don't know what the infrastructure of El Pasos rail yards are like, but I suspect it is just a load of switching facilities, but nothing like what the Port of Tucson has. Tucson is closer to Mexico, and has the rail linkages to the Gulf Coast and the Pacific. Tucson has the physical space to put in a plant like that, on the SE side of town, and be closer to the airport and downtown in comparison to Phoenix.

As far as the workforce is concerned...I don't know if Tesla would immediately build a huge plant for 6500 employees, or if it would gradually phase that in. Forgive me, for not having read all the info about it's proposal.

but speaking as an outsider from Austin, I truly believe that Tucson has a great shot at this. I honestly wish you all the best, because Tucson really deserves and needs it. I love checking out this forum daily. Tucson has a special place in my heart.

[Patrick S]

Patrick, et. al.
I think there are some logistical points that must be made, that some people have mentioned before, but they bear repeating. yes, everyone talks about Phoenix probably having a better shot, and you could think that....Phoenix has bigger freeways, a bigger downtown, bigger Airport, bigger this, bigger that. What Phoenix doesn't have, within easy reach, is the available land to put a plant in like that, without it being located a god awful drive from that big downtown, or that big airport. Phoenix may have bigger freeways, but look at the amount of traffic on those freeways. It may have a bigger airport, but how much room does Sky Harbor have to expand?

That's the problem with being the big everything. You can only brag about that so much before someone brings up some uncomfortable details that you just can't gloss over.

Patrick, you mentioned Austin.....have you BEEN to Austin lately? I live there, and our traffic is monumentally shitty...and we've got more freeways than Tucson does. We're practically becoming Seattle where Rush Hour lasts all day. I've lived in Austin for 20 years, and I've seen the metro area add about a million people within that time frame.
Could we handle a plant for 6500 workers? Probably....Hell, Dell is headquartered here, and we've got 15000 employees or so, give or take. But again, our highway traffic is FUGLY, and that would be a major PITA for us to deal with, if you're looking at a manufacturing facility. the only possible place I could see us doing it is further out east, where we've got a tollway bypass for I-35, but traffic on I-35 still stinks to high heaven north of Austin or south of it. We've got another tollway that heads south and connects to I-10, but I've done the drive on I10 between there and Houston....and 10 sucks rocks.

Dallas and Houston are bigshots too, but their infrastructure issues are just as challenging if not moreso than Austins...and they've gotten so big, that a plant like this is going to have to be located out in the middle of sodomized egypt.

Just to get back at tucson, vs. Phoenix, vs. ABQ, vs. Vegas. vs. El Paso.

when I look at those other 4 cities, I see them not having, what Tucson does.
Tucson has the University of Arizona, one of the top research universities in the country. I haven't looked into great detail at ASU, or UNLV or UNM, or UTEP, but I can almost bet that Tucson graduates more geeks in far more diverse engineering and technical fields than the others.

The other thing that Tucson has is it's RAIL Infrastructure. Let some of the jackass naysayers who post on the Arizona Daily star about the inland Port of Tucson, but dangit guys, that's a huge plus for your city. Yeah Phoenix is just as close to pacific coast markets as Tucson is...but Tucson has the rail system, Phoenix does not, by comparison. i don't know what the infrastructure of El Pasos rail yards are like, but I suspect it is just a load of switching facilities, but nothing like what the Port of Tucson has. Tucson is closer to Mexico, and has the rail linkages to the Gulf Coast and the Pacific. Tucson has the physical space to put in a plant like that, on the SE side of town, and be closer to the airport and downtown in comparison to Phoenix.

As far as the workforce is concerned...I don't know if Tesla would immediately build a huge plant for 6500 employees, or if it would gradually phase that in. Forgive me, for not having read all the info about it's proposal.

but speaking as an outsider from Austin, I truly believe that Tucson has a great shot at this. I honestly wish you all the best, because Tucson really deserves and needs it. I love checking out this forum daily. Tucson has a special place in my heart.
You make some very valid and interesting points. You talk about Sky Harbor Airport. When my father comes to visit me from northern Illinois he flies into Mesa Airport. Now, this is mainly because he lives in Rockford, which is about 90 miles west of Chicago and they have direct flights into Mesa (instead of having to drive to Chicago), but he always raves about the Mesa Airport and how much more convenient it is than Phoenix's Sky Harbor. As you mentioned, there isn't much room to expand Sky Harbor, and Mesa most likely would be the 2nd airport. But, this leaves out the western suburbs, which is the fastest growing part of the metro area. I would disagree with the idea there isn't much land to build such a huge plant in the Phoenix area, even close to the downtown area, but I think the bigger hinderance on that would be the cost. The same sized plot of land in Tucson would be way cheaper. I also agree that the U of A is the best of the universities you mentioned - UNLV, ASU, UTEP, UNM - as well as others you didn't mention (Nevada in Reno, NAU in Flagstaff, and NMSU in Las Cruces). I've never been to Austin (I've never been to Texas besides driving through the panhandle). I do know that it does have a major tech sector and the U of Texas though. You talk about the nightmare traffic there. Though freeways aren't the end-all-be-all of travel, they do help in some aspects, and Tucson is hurt, I think, by not having a cross-town or loop freeway/expressway. The best place for this factory would be the southeast side by I-10 and Houghton/Rita Ranch, or south of the airport (off I-19). Both of these do have good access to interstates, but the interstates near these places are both in need of major upgrades. I-19 is 2 lanes each direction by the airport and already needs to be at least 3 lanes in each direction. I-10 is also 2 lanes each direction out by Houghton and Rita Ranch, and this too already needs to be upgraded by at least a lane in each direction. The traffic on the surface streets in the city is all but unbearable at times. That said, there is quick access to Mexico, Texas and Southern California in Tucson - and this is just by interstate. Tucson certainly does have the rail capacity to handle this type of plant - though the same could be said for Pinal County, which has even more abundant and cheap land than Tucson. I hope Tucson gets this - it could be a game changer. The Bio-Park is looking to get tenants by expanding its focus, but I don't think they have the land for this plant. The U of A is definitely a major draw for this - and is a great research university. Tucson is a major center for making optics, planetary and space exploration, and is solar. Getting a plant like this would not only employ 6,500 people with high-paying, quality, jobs - it would diversify our economy even more and may inspire more companies to seriously look at our great city. I like that we've put ourselves out there. I hope we get rewarded. I think we've got more than a puncher's chance, but I don't think we have the best chance.

[Azstar]

One of the things all major employees consider is quality of life for their employees, and how easy it would be to attract high quality talent. SB1070, the anti-immigration bill, and SB1062 the gay discrimination bill passed by the Arizona legislature would certainly be a consideration affecting any Arizona location. Tesla will also send representatives to check out the locations. Have you seen the hobo-homeless camp surrounding Veinte de Agosto Park in the heart of downtown Tucson? It sends a message that Tucson is unwilling, or unable, to control, or deal with, the huge homeless population afflicting the city. I hope none of those will be factors in the decision, but I believe they will.

[southtucsonboy77]

Patrick, et. al.
I think there are some logistical points that must be made, that some people have mentioned before, but they bear repeating. yes, everyone talks about Phoenix probably having a better shot, and you could think that....Phoenix has bigger freeways, a bigger downtown, bigger Airport, bigger this, bigger that. What Phoenix doesn't have, within easy reach, is the available land to put a plant in like that, without it being located a god awful drive from that big downtown, or that big airport. Phoenix may have bigger freeways, but look at the amount of traffic on those freeways. It may have a bigger airport, but how much room does Sky Harbor have to expand?

That's the problem with being the big everything. You can only brag about that so much before someone brings up some uncomfortable details that you just can't gloss over.

Patrick, you mentioned Austin.....have you BEEN to Austin lately? I live there, and our traffic is monumentally shitty...and we've got more freeways than Tucson does. We're practically becoming Seattle where Rush Hour lasts all day. I've lived in Austin for 20 years, and I've seen the metro area add about a million people within that time frame.
Could we handle a plant for 6500 workers? Probably....Hell, Dell is headquartered here, and we've got 15000 employees or so, give or take. But again, our highway traffic is FUGLY, and that would be a major PITA for us to deal with, if you're looking at a manufacturing facility. the only possible place I could see us doing it is further out east, where we've got a tollway bypass for I-35, but traffic on I-35 still stinks to high heaven north of Austin or south of it. We've got another tollway that heads south and connects to I-10, but I've done the drive on I10 between there and Houston....and 10 sucks rocks.

Dallas and Houston are bigshots too, but their infrastructure issues are just as challenging if not moreso than Austins...and they've gotten so big, that a plant like this is going to have to be located out in the middle of sodomized egypt.

Just to get back at tucson, vs. Phoenix, vs. ABQ, vs. Vegas. vs. El Paso.

when I look at those other 4 cities, I see them not having, what Tucson does.
Tucson has the University of Arizona, one of the top research universities in the country. I haven't looked into great detail at ASU, or UNLV or UNM, or UTEP, but I can almost bet that Tucson graduates more geeks in far more diverse engineering and technical fields than the others.

The other thing that Tucson has is it's RAIL Infrastructure. Let some of the jackass naysayers who post on the Arizona Daily star about the inland Port of Tucson, but dangit guys, that's a huge plus for your city. Yeah Phoenix is just as close to pacific coast markets as Tucson is...but Tucson has the rail system, Phoenix does not, by comparison. i don't know what the infrastructure of El Pasos rail yards are like, but I suspect it is just a load of switching facilities, but nothing like what the Port of Tucson has. Tucson is closer to Mexico, and has the rail linkages to the Gulf Coast and the Pacific. Tucson has the physical space to put in a plant like that, on the SE side of town, and be closer to the airport and downtown in comparison to Phoenix.

As far as the workforce is concerned...I don't know if Tesla would immediately build a huge plant for 6500 employees, or if it would gradually phase that in. Forgive me, for not having read all the info about it's proposal.

but speaking as an outsider from Austin, I truly believe that Tucson has a great shot at this. I honestly wish you all the best, because Tucson really deserves and needs it. I love checking out this forum daily. Tucson has a special place in my heart.

By nature of my job...I cannot say much when I post...but this post from AustinBear is a sentimental favorite of mine!

I was being synical about whether or not TREO knew about this opportunity before I inquired about the topic...a clearer comment would be I just truly hope their timing was strategic. Other than that, in general terms...if a site selector was evaluating what we were told through all the papers and news releases...in this peanut gallery's mind...Tucson is the place.

[southtucsonboy77]

Rio Nuevo took steps this week to help move along a potential downtown hotel and exhibition center.

The board voted unanimously Tuesday to have its attorney draft a plan where Rio Nuevo kicks in up to $855,000 to mitigate longstanding drainage issues at Allan Norville’s property near the Tucson Convention Center. The drainage project would also solve flooding issues on Rio Nuevo’s adjacent property.

Article link (http://azstarnet.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/rio-nuevo-moves-to-assist-downtown-tucson-hotel-plan/article_bc6cfa25-4d6b-5f0f-a40b-0448acdb4420.html).

[farmerk]

One of the things all major employees consider is quality of life for their employees, and how easy it would be to attract high quality talent. SB1070, the anti-immigration bill, and SB1062 the gay discrimination bill passed by the Arizona legislature would certainly be a consideration affecting any Arizona location. Tesla will also send representatives to check out the locations. Have you seen the hobo-homeless camp surrounding Veinte de Agosto Park in the heart of downtown Tucson? It sends a message that Tucson is unwilling, or unable, to control, or deal with, the huge homeless population afflicting the city. I hope none of those will be factors in the decision, but I believe they will.

Good points. However, if Tesla reps would look much deeper, Tucson is the anti-Arizona. Tucson recently passed a bill recognizing a Cesar Chavez Day. COT made it known that it's pro-gay and pro-immigrant. There are homeless in EVERY city in the U.S.A. , unfortunately. Marana representative Al Melvin, voted for SB1062, certainly won't help Marana grab Tesla's gigafactory. And I'm very grateful un-Governor Brewer lives in Maricopa county.

Tucson has a real shot at this - it's already a real Solar City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_America_Cities) , has an int'l rail port (http://www.portoftucson.net/), close proximity to Mexico ( big supplier for Tesla and Bolivia-lot's of lithium (http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/bolivia/130321/bolivian-lithium-exports-smartphone-electric-car-battery)) and Long Beach ports (close to Tesla's would be biggest customer - China), lots of available space, top research UA, Tucson is pro-environment and despite some setbacks, Tucson's (population and pro-business culture) trajectory is upward, becoming more pro-urban (attract more young workers and entrepreneurs) and part of a mega-region (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MapofEmergingUSMegaregions.png) ( Sun Corridor ) . Some cities who want the gigafactory are proposing this and that .... Tucson already has the goods.

Elon Musk has interest in sending military cargo in space and Mars exploration. Tucson is an astronomy and optics city. U of A is heavily involved with NASA not just in pure science put practical engineering (UT Austin? Nah). Raytheon assembles a quarter of the missiles and heavily involve in space aged missile technology. And there might be extra space at Davis Monthan if the A-10's retire. He'll feel right at home in the Old Pueblo.

Btw, Texas has tornadoes (one and only factory being destroyed by a tornado - not good). New Mexico and Nevada doesn't have the same caliber school as University of Arizona (you can always proposed a school for this and that ... UA has it). Phoenix has too much hate ... not good for immigrant Elon Musk who left apartheid South Africa because he couldn't stand forced military service beating up black South Africans.

Elon has until the end of this year to decide. Elon come to Tucson!

[azsunsurfer]

If Tesla really wanted to build a plant in Tucson, they might as well go a few miles south to either Magdalena or Nogales just for the reduced costs in labor.....not that much differs in its demographic make up.....

[Ritarancher]

If Tesla really wanted to build a plant in Tucson, they might as well go a few miles south to either Magdalena or Nogales just for the reduced costs in labor.....not that much differs in its demographic make up.....

How ignorant. Let me tell you something. Yes, Magdalena and Nogales are not home to high-tech industries or world class universities, but they don't have an education system that we are privileged with here in the states. You've started that the demographics of Tucson aren't much different than Magdalena but they are very different. Tucson, for one is educated and Tucson is also a lot richer. The way you started makes it seem that race is responsible for the lack of education in Magdalena but that is not the case. Both Magdalena and Tucson have large Hispanic populations but just because people in Magdalena can't get access to a good education doesn't mean that all Hispanic people are less educated than other races. Your relying on a stereotype.
Here are the real facts; no race is superior our inferior to another race.Everybody is born equal regardless of their race, religion, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, and social class. Underneath us all is just flesh and bone. It's not 1950, join society.

[AustinBear]

One of the things all major employees consider is quality of life for their employees, and how easy it would be to attract high quality talent. SB1070, the anti-immigration bill, and SB1062 the gay discrimination bill passed by the Arizona legislature would certainly be a consideration affecting any Arizona location. Tesla will also send representatives to check out the locations. Have you seen the hobo-homeless camp surrounding Veinte de Agosto Park in the heart of downtown Tucson? It sends a message that Tucson is unwilling, or unable, to control, or deal with, the huge homeless population afflicting the city. I hope none of those will be factors in the decision, but I believe they will.

Azstar,
with all due respect, we've got a huge homeless population in Austin as well, but we haven't exactly been suffering with regards to attracting jobs here. People walking the streets with cardboard signs stating "Please help me", is practically a cottage industry here.

I think you're unfairly smacking Tucson down in terms of quality of life issues. Streets that need repair? Oh we've got that in spades out here, in Austin as well as elsewhere in Texas. I've driven Tucson's surface streets before, most recently around 2011. Not the nightmare scenario people love to complain about. I've seen worse, believe me.

I keep a close watch on what Tucson is doing right, where the mayor has worked aggressively to cut the numbers of homeless veterans down and get them taken care of.

I've seen how your streets are finally getting repaired and widened. It is slow going, but I know Proposition 409 had a successful outcome, so the problem is being fixed. You want to see an example of horrible street conditions? Come down to Corpus Christi Texas, where they put off their infrastructure needs for over 30 years. According to a news article I read in the Corpus Christi paper, 1/2 of their streets are past the point of needing simple maintenance to be fixed...they need to be completely torn up, and replaced...and the cost? Over 900 Million. And Corpus Christis metropolitan population is roughly 1/2 that of metro Tucsons. There's some perspective for you.

Every city has it's challenges, but I think of what Tucson is doing right...Street medians that are being landscaped, a committment to preserving your "washes" as wildlife habitat with walking trails for joggers, walkers and cyclists. Can Phoenix make that kind of a claim in terms of livability? Their CAP canals certainly don't count as "scenic", just strictly utilitarian. And even that is much nicer than the Concrete caverns that make up "River beds" throughout Los Angeles.
I think of that one thing alone, and that makes me think of Tucson as an "Austin" in the desert....where people can be close to nature within their own city. you better believe that's a HUGE quality of life issue in your favor.

the most impressive thing I've seen is how Tucson is committed to conserving it's water resources. I've specifically saved Youtube Videos from Tucson City News channel 12, about grey water recycling, and water recharge zones on the west side in the Avra Valley, and the Sweetwater Wetlands area. Pushing for digital water meters that will actually give the city real time data on water usage, and also with regards to catching leaks in it's infrastructure. That is incredibly innovative on the city's part, and you should be for damn sure proud of that. From the reports I've read, Tucsons water table has started to go up again...Tucson is securing water for it's future, that is not ENTIRELY dependant upon the colorado river and the CAP project. Tucson saw the writing on the wall for years, while Phoenix, and Las Vegas and most of California looked the other way.

If I were a business owner, I'd look at the things this city does right and say, "Tucson is doing the right things by it's people that will pay off in both the short term and the long term."

Does Tucson have it's challenges, most definitely? But has it been making changes for the better? Most certainly.

[cdsuofa]

Tucson is its own worst enemy when it comes to things like this. If they are showing serious interest in Tucson to develop this, chances are Tucson and/or County leadership will be the reason it doesn't happen. That's if history repeats itself of course which it tends to.

[southtucsonboy77]

Retention and expansion are also a big part of the Econ Dev game.

Here's a bunt: Tucson mining-tech company expands (http://azstarnet.com/business/local/tucson-mining-tech-company-expands/article_4ec7b3ea-2239-5853-ac1c-138435bcc0aa.html)

A single: Electronics maker to hire 50 people for new Tucson plant (http://azstarnet.com/business/local/electronics-maker-to-hire-people-for-new-tucson-plant/article_71a537fc-926d-5e7d-aa20-a82289ba1f85.html)

Hopefully Tesla will be our HOMERUN.

[farmerk]

Not a big fan of Cadence but I must say this photo op is a nice one
http://www.downtowntucson.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/SCAR-3.jpg

[kaneui]

With the initial Sun Link streetcar line to begin operations this summer, a map prepared in 2013 (apparently by state senator Steve Farley) shows proposed future streetcar extensions: the first legs going north to Tucson Mall and south to the airport, with future extensions east to Sabino Canyon and the PCC East campus, west to PCC West, northwest to PCC Northwest campus, and another spur south towards the airport. (Also note the possible commuter rail routes.)



http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/kaneui/EduLinkStreetcarExtensions_zps9c21e94b.jpg


For larger image: http://www.streetcarfriends.org/maps/

[farmerk]

Kaneui, I like the route passing through 6th st instead of Broadway Rd. Pima St or Grant Rd could use a route for that area. A Kolb route could be useful if more businesses setup shop in the SE.

[Locofresh55]

With the initial Sun Link streetcar line to begin operations this summer, a map prepared in 2013 (apparently by state senator Steve Farley) shows proposed future streetcar extensions: the first legs going north to Tucson Mall and south to the airport, with future extensions east to Sabino Canyon and the PCC East campus, west to PCC West, northwest to PCC Northwest campus, and another spur south towards the airport. (Also note the possible commuter rail routes.)



http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/kaneui/EduLinkStreetcarExtensions_zps9c21e94b.jpg


For larger image: http://www.streetcarfriends.org/maps/

I'm glad they are thinking about extensions because it would be a serious waste to just have the current 4 mile path. The one extension that I think should be considered is the Aviation hwy route to Golf Links. That would target the DM crowd and that line could be a special direct route with a terminus of that line at downtown and the other terminus being Golf links and Swan or Golf Link and Craycroft. I think the Swan gate would work better because of the wide curve near that intersection (plus, the Border Patrol building is there too). Having been stationed here at Yokota Air Base for 3 years now, I see the benefits of having train stations near by the base. Of course, Tucson is not Tokyo but to have the lines set up would be beneficial to give easy accessibility to the Air Force population. I know that the potential lies to downsize DM big time, but for the time being it is worth consideration.

[rpf]

Here's Steve Farley's similar light rail proposal from a decade ago:
https://web.archive.org/web/20020313152538im_/http://tucsonlightrail.org/routemap.jpg (https://web.archive.org/web/20020907160058/http://tucsonlightrail.org/planmap.htm)

I have also read that there are 3 officially proposed short-to-medium term streetcar route expansions--I took a survey some time ago that listed them along with various BRT routes. I believe they were:

Campbell to Limberlost to the Tohono Tadai transit center
6th/Broadway to El Con
6th Ave to (I think) the Laos Transit Center


I think those are all reasonable routes, although I think there was hope that El Con would evolve into something more transit friendly, instead of a collection of big box stores. A Broadway line needs to go further east to really make sense. What concerns me is that there was no dedicated right-of-way planned for any of it. No one is going to ride 5+ miles on the streetcar at 8 MPH unless they are already bus riders. The existing line only makes any sense because there are a lot of jobs, homes, and attractions within a mile or two of each other along it. A longer system has to have its own right-of-way or else it will just take too long to get anywhere.

I like Steve Farley and the work he has done for Tucson, but his new map (http://www.streetcarfriends.org/maps/) worries me because it seems to be trying to cover way too much ground with rail, while not matching up with population and employment density (http://www.pagnet.org/documents/RTP/RTP2040/2040RTP-RD-PopandEmpDensitiesMap.pdf) very well, and at roughly 50 miles total, would cost $2-5 billion, possibly much more.

I love Tucson and I want to see more transit-oriented growth, but that much money isn't happening, and that much rail just doesn't make sense.

BTW, I'm a long time lurker, first time poster. Transit is my main area of interest; I voted for Steve's original plan in 2003 and I hold out hope that Tucson can get it together and move our transportation infrastructure forward in a smart way.

[builtittall]

Long time reader, first time poster.

I think Tucson would be heading the wrong direction if they tried to expand the streetcar as shown on the map. The current streetcar stock purchased by the city has a max speed of around 40-43 mph. That is the max speed, so typical running speeds will be lucky to reach the high 30's. For small distances in dense neighborhoods, streetcars are the best answers. For large cross town travel, Tucson should be much more focused on light rail. Light rail trains have a max speed of 60 mph which would be much more efficient and require a dedicated ROW.

The argument for using streetcars because the infrastructure is already in place should not be considered. Why pay for a system build-out that is inefficient?

[rpf]

Long time reader, first time poster.

I think Tucson would be heading the wrong direction if they tried to expand the streetcar as shown on the map. The current streetcar stock purchased by the city has a max speed of around 40-43 mph. That is the max speed, so typical running speeds will be lucky to reach the high 30's. For small distances in dense neighborhoods, streetcars are the best answers. For large cross town travel, Tucson should be much more focused on light rail. Light rail trains have a max speed of 60 mph which would be much more efficient and require a dedicated ROW.

The argument for using streetcars because the infrastructure is already in place should not be considered. Why pay for a system build-out that is inefficient?

I understand and agree with your assessment that streetcar expansions need to be faster than the initial 4-mile line opening this year. But I think using the same vehicles and station/power infrastructure throughout the system could save a significant amount of money and provide comparable speed, if the system expansions were done in a dedicated ROW. Consider this: Most urban rail systems rarely come close to their vehicles' top speeds during normal operations; if they do it's between very widely-spaced stops in grade-separated ROW. As the chart below shows, most North American urban rail systems average between about 20-25 MPH:

http://seattletransitblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/newtonchart2.jpg (http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/12/30/link-light-rail-in-the-north-american-context/)

Tucson's streetcar vehicle has a top speed of 44 MPH and an acceleration/deceleration rate of 3 MPH per second (http://unitedstreetcar.com/products/united-streetcar-100/). If the expansions to the system were compatible with the existing streetcar vehicles but built more to light rail specs (1-2 miles between stops, dedicated ROW) it could average about 30 MPH with stations a mile apart, and 36 MPH with stations 2 miles apart (these numbers account for a 20 second dwell time at each station). Even considering that other factors would slow things down somewhat, this would be on par with other cities' mass transit systems, and much, much faster than the initial streetcar line and our bus system.

Consider also that light rail trains are larger than streetcars, more expensive to buy, and cost more to operate per mile; we could afford to buy and run more trains, resulting in more frequent service for the same price, and more frequent service means shorter trip times and higher ridership. Many light rail systems in the U.S. have had budget cuts that have led to headways as long as 30 minutes between trains at off-peak times. What good is a fast train if you have to wait so long for it?

I am very concerned about plans to expand the system if it is all designed like the first 4 miles, because that would average closer to 7-8 MPH. But I think using the same vehicles in dedicated ROW could be a smart move.

[builtittall]

I understand and agree with your assessment that streetcar expansions need to be faster than the initial 4-mile line opening this year. But I think using the same vehicles and station/power infrastructure throughout the system could save a significant amount of money and provide comparable speed, if the system expansions were done in a dedicated ROW. Consider this: Most urban rail systems rarely come close to their vehicles' top speeds during normal operations; if they do it's between very widely-spaced stops in grade-separated ROW. As the chart below shows, most North American urban rail systems average between about 20-25 MPH:

http://seattletransitblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/newtonchart2.jpg (http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/12/30/link-light-rail-in-the-north-american-context/)

Tucson's streetcar vehicle has a top speed of 44 MPH and an acceleration/deceleration rate of 3 MPH per second (http://unitedstreetcar.com/products/united-streetcar-100/). If the expansions to the system were compatible with the existing streetcar vehicles but built more to light rail specs (1-2 miles between stops, dedicated ROW) it could average about 30 MPH with stations a mile apart, and 36 MPH with stations 2 miles apart (these numbers account for a 20 second dwell time at each station). Even considering that other factors would slow things down somewhat, this would be on par with other cities' mass transit systems, and much, much faster than the initial streetcar line and our bus system.

Consider also that light rail trains are larger than streetcars, more expensive to buy, and cost more to operate per mile; we could afford to buy and run more trains, resulting in more frequent service for the same price, and more frequent service means shorter trip times and higher ridership. Many light rail systems in the U.S. have had budget cuts that have led to headways as long as 30 minutes between trains at off-peak times. What good is a fast train if you have to wait so long for it?

I am very concerned about plans to expand the system if it is all designed like the first 4 miles, because that would average closer to 7-8 MPH. But I think using the same vehicles in dedicated ROW could be a smart move.

I agree with your breakdown, but I am addressing maximum speed not average speed. Most if not all of the systems you addressed are using a LRV system with much higher max speeds.

The roads that most of the extensions would travel on have a speed limit of 40-45 mph. Most transit systems are not run at maximum speeds so you can expect the streetcar to be traveling at a 5-7 mph slower rate. The issue becomes that we are building a system that cannot even strive for faster average speeds.

The core city would be well served by ROW streetcars, but once you expand out to the airport, Park Mall, and Tucson Mall, you are getting an inferior product. A two modal system (streetcar and LRV) like Portland and Seattle is much more complimentary and effective than running streetcars long distances.

[farmerk]

builtitall and rfp , thanks for posting and presenting your informative conversation. Personally, I'd like to limit Tucson's streetcar to the current 4 mile route between downtown and UA. Outside that route , I'd prefer light rail (own dedicated lane) .

I missed the fact that Farley's map is ALL streetcar - waste of $$$...might as well take the bus.

Tucson's streetcar has done wonders attracting business investments along it's route. Light rail all over Tucson (including to DM base as suggested by Locofresh55) will be the key to further investments all over Tucson. Looking forward to replacing the strip mall architecture of Tucson with at least 5 floor buildings.

Airport-downtown-Oracle and downtown-6th st-East Broadway would be a good start for a light rail, IMHO .

[Patrick S]

I think for a larger system Light Rail is the best idea. I completely agree that DMAFB needs to be part of the plan. A few years ago I proposed a route down Aviation Hwy. to the base. Some of the routes in the 2013 plan are very similar to routes I came up with a few years ago (north to Tucson Mall and south to the Bio-Science Park and TIA). I didn't think about a route out to the Sabino Canyon area, but that's a good idea. I think I had one going out to PCC East, but pretty sure it was much different than the one proposed. I'm actually intrigued by that one on this map, since it appears to go down Camino Seco south of Golf Links. I live right off Camino Seco, just south of Escalante. It's a 2 lane road and in horrible shape. Would need major upgrades for a rail link.

[Patrick S]

Lots of interesting articles on the Inside Tucson Business website:

High-tech coating company bringing U.S. HQ to Marana; 30 jobs planned (http://www.insidetucsonbusiness.com/blogs/high-tech-coating-company-bringing-u-s-hq-to-marana/article_bb76c6b2-af8d-11e3-be89-001a4bcf887a.html)

Tucson hoping to win Tesla battery plant sweepstakes (http://www.insidetucsonbusiness.com/news/tucson-hoping-to-win-tesla-battery-plant-sweepstakes/article_e94515e8-aaed-11e3-bf94-0019bb2963f4.html)

All of Tucson metro would benefit from Tesla, town leaders say (http://www.insidetucsonbusiness.com/news/all-of-tucson-metro-would-benefit-from-tesla-town-leaders/article_7b7976f6-aaef-11e3-824f-0019bb2963f4.html)

[Patrick S]

From yesterday's (3/18/14) city council meeting. An update on the 5th & Congress Project. The proposed building would be 8 stories tall. The 1st floor would be the hotel lobby and commercial space. Floors 2-5 would be a parking garage. Floors 6-8 would be a 147 room boutique hotel, 3 restaurants, and 9,750 square feet of neighborhood retail.

http://www.tucsonaz.gov/sirepub/cache/2/ldbxnf3csim41taiggho0k5u/598860603192014073731460.PDF

[Thirsty]

I agree with your breakdown, but I am addressing maximum speed not average speed. Most if not all of the systems you addressed are using a LRV system with much higher max speeds.

The roads that most of the extensions would travel on have a speed limit of 40-45 mph. Most transit systems are not run at maximum speeds so you can expect the streetcar to be traveling at a 5-7 mph slower rate. The issue becomes that we are building a system that cannot even strive for faster average speeds.

The core city would be well served by ROW streetcars, but once you expand out to the airport, Park Mall, and Tucson Mall, you are getting an inferior product. A two modal system (streetcar and LRV) like Portland and Seattle is much more complimentary and effective than running streetcars long distances.

I believe you missed the point of rpf's post. As I read it, the suggestion was a two modal system using the current cars on both to save cost. Unless you're talking about grade-separation, LRT would operate below 45 mph anyhow. For example, the LRT in Phoenix can cruise ~60, but the system speed limit is 35. (a possible exception is the stretch of desert between Tempe/PHX where it does not intersect surface streets)


Otherwise I agree with everyone's disappointment that anyone would be pushing a suburban trolley plan. This is the kind of junk that fuels the anti-transit crowd. :yuck:

[builtittall]

I believe you missed the point of rpf's post. As I read it, the suggestion was a two modal system using the current cars on both to save cost. Unless you're talking about grade-separation, LRT would operate below 45 mph anyhow. For example, the LRT in Phoenix can cruise ~60, but the system speed limit is 35. (a possible exception is the stretch of desert between Tempe/PHX where it does not intersect surface streets)


Otherwise I agree with everyone's disappointment that anyone would be pushing a suburban trolley plan. This is the kind of junk that fuels the anti-transit crowd. :yuck:

If that is what rpf meant, then I did miss his point. I am not sure I fully understand what you mean by "using the current cars on both to save cost".

As far as speed is concerned, I am not 100% positive how Phoenix runs their system, but most systems in the US that run in dedicated ROW at grade are restricted to a roads speed limit. The system build out shown previously, has lines running in roads with speed limits above 40 mph. Broadway for example has a speed limit above 40 after Country Club. With streetcars, running a system above 40 is quite a burden for mechanical systems and most transit agencies will avoid this due to wear and tear. 45 mph is definitely out of the question.

My main concern is that Farley is trying to "piggy-back" a suburban streetcar system onto the current line because the infrastructure is built and it would be easier to pass the conservative anti-transit policy agenda in Tucson. I am very grateful for the effort Farley has put into the current line, but building rail for the sake of rail is really a waste of money and our very small transit voice. We need to push the correct system for the large suburban nature of our city.

Btw, I am in no means bashing the current streetcar construction. From a development standpoint, I think the streetcar saved/sparked downtown Tucson and it will provide a great "established" transit connection between two large employment centers.

[ProfessorMole]

From yesterday's (3/18/14) city council meeting. An update on the 5th & Congress Project. The proposed building would be 8 stories tall. The 1st floor would be the hotel lobby and commercial space. Floors 2-5 would be a parking garage. Floors 6-8 would be a 147 room boutique hotel, 3 restaurants, and 9,750 square feet of neighborhood retail.

http://www.tucsonaz.gov/sirepub/cache/2/ldbxnf3csim41taiggho0k5u/598860603192014073731460.PDF

Item 15 on the agenda was also the approvals to finalize the sale of that piece of property directly North of Hub Apartments on Tyndall to Core Campus.

March 18th Agenda (http://www.tucsonaz.gov/sirepub/mtgviewer.aspx?meetid=1244&doctype=AGENDA)

[rpf]

If that is what rpf meant, then I did miss his point. I am not sure I fully understand what you mean by "using the current cars on both to save cost".

As far as speed is concerned, I am not 100% positive how Phoenix runs their system, but most systems in the US that run in dedicated ROW at grade are restricted to a roads speed limit. The system build out shown previously, has lines running in roads with speed limits above 40 mph. Broadway for example has a speed limit above 40 after Country Club. With streetcars, running a system above 40 is quite a burden for mechanical systems and most transit agencies will avoid this due to wear and tear. 45 mph is definitely out of the question.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. The savings and greater flexibility would come mostly from not having multiple classes of vehicles to maintain, and the fact that streetcars, generally speaking, are cheaper to purchase and operate than LRT vehicles. Also, higher top speeds provide diminishing returns in terms of system performance because of speed limits and the fact that you can only accelerate and decelerate so quickly between stops without throwing passengers around.

The "Rapid Streetcar" concept isn't new but it has been getting more attention lately as a way to provide a quality of service that is very close to full LRT for much lower cost (http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/blogs/lyndon-henry/rapid-streetcar-concept-gaining-ground.html). I think we are all aware that Tucson doesn't have a few billion dollars burning a hole in its pocket, so if we are ever to get anything resembling a citywide system it will need to be economical. Because of our limited resources, the other mode the city has been studying is bus rapid transit. In my experience (Orange Line in LA, Silver Line in Boston), BRT can be reliable and fast enough, but it loses many important benefits of rail. It's loud, bumpy and shaky, and cramped. It also isn't as successful at spurring development.

[Thirsty]

Sorry if I wasn't clear. The savings and greater flexibility would come mostly from not having multiple classes of vehicles to maintain, and the fact that streetcars, generally speaking, are cheaper to purchase and operate than LRT vehicles. Also, higher top speeds provide diminishing returns in terms of system performance because of speed limits and the fact that you can only accelerate and decelerate so quickly between stops without throwing passengers around.

The "Rapid Streetcar" concept isn't new but it has been getting more attention lately as a way to provide a quality of service that is very close to full LRT for much lower cost (http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/blogs/lyndon-henry/rapid-streetcar-concept-gaining-ground.html). I think we are all aware that Tucson doesn't have a few billion dollars burning a hole in its pocket, so if we are ever to get anything resembling a citywide system it will need to be economical. Because of our limited resources, the other mode the city has been studying is bus rapid transit. In my experience (Orange Line in LA, Silver Line in Boston), BRT can be reliable and fast enough, but it loses many important benefits of rail. It's loud, bumpy and shaky, and cramped. It also isn't as successful at spurring development.

Now that you mention it, I went back to look at the route map and see on the Broadway leg and the Airport leg, with an exception or two, the stops are at 1.5-2 mile spacing. These are much more practical than was my knee-jerk reaction, and I suppose a "rapid streetcar" is what is planned for those two directions.

At least I hope. If there is not a dedicated center lane right of way for the entire system we're back to "suburban trolley" or billion $ bus.

Builtittall is probably right that they can't be run at full speed all the time, but by the time these new lines are built, hopefully there is an option to retrofit our half dozen or so existing cars to bring them up to speed with the faster models.

[Qwijib0]

I think those are all reasonable routes, although I think there was hope that El Con would evolve into something more transit friendly, instead of a collection of big box stores. A Broadway line needs to go further east to really make sense. What concerns me is that there was no dedicated right-of-way planned for any of it. No one is going to ride 5+ miles on the streetcar at 8 MPH unless they are already bus riders. The existing line only makes any sense because there are a lot of jobs, homes, and attractions within a mile or two of each other along it. A longer system has to have its own right-of-way or else it will just take too long to get anywhere.


Broadway has bus lanes from country club eastward, so there is already dedicated ROW for transit.

[farmerk]

Since we're in the topic of railways ....

Tell ADOT what you think about Tucson-Phoenix high-speed rail (http://azstarnet.com/news/state-and-regional/tell-adot-what-you-think-about-tucson-phoenix-high-speed/article_c0679c07-8536-5bef-b5d8-289d40e492b4.html)

Looks like Arizona is still serious about high speed rail between Tucson and Phoenix.

[rpf]

Broadway has bus lanes from country club eastward, so there is already dedicated ROW for transit.

There's also a good chance that the widening of Broadway between Euclid and Country Club (http://www.tucsonaz.gov/broadway) will have dedicated transit lanes as well, so there's hope yet :)

[Patrick S]

There's also a good chance that the widening of Broadway between Euclid and Country Club (http://www.tucsonaz.gov/broadway) will have dedicated transit lanes as well, so there's hope yet :)
I'm pretty sure that's a requirement for that segment when it's widened. I've always read that it will be for BRT with the possibility of using it for light-rail in the future.

[andrewsaturn]

With the current streetcar route I was concerned that it was just going to be a bus on rails. But I was pleasantly surprised to find out that the route on Broadway in downtown has its own right of way lane. So it's not completely like a bus! I think that when it expands beyond downtown, we have a good chance for proposals to change so that the streetcar can have its own ROW. It is early and expansion probably won't be until several years from now.

[andrewsaturn]

Oh and I really think they should do the rail extension to the airport first. If you think about it Tucson's main attraction is the uofa and the things that happen around it like the festival of books. So basically we could have that direct link from airport to downtown hotel to uofa campus. Also, it could really help spur development for the bioscience park.

[farmerk]

Another reason Arizona really really wants Tesla's gigafactory :

"This week, one legislative committee took a step to change that ( 2000 state law prohibits Tesla Motors and other auto companies from selling directly to consumers without a dealer ). The state senate’s Committee on Commerce, Energy and Military Affairs voted 3-2 for a strike-all amendment that would allow manufacturers who make only electric cars — i.e. Tesla — to sell them directly to consumers in Arizona."

"Beyond the legislative proposal, all nine U.S. representatives from Arizona signed a letter to Tesla this week encouraging the company to pick Arizona. U.S. Rep. Ron Barber, who signed that letter, also sent another one encouraging the company to pick Southern Arizona."

source (http://azstarnet.com/news/local/column/steller-surveys-give-tucson-s-business-leaders-a-bit-of/article_ff8852c2-2346-5410-a23f-ed28e52fa375.html)

Also from this same source, "... that vast majorities in the Tucson area support the military installations here even with aircraft noise" . I like to see several scientific surveys from a reputable pollster regarding Tucson's view with growth and business. Does Tucson want to urbanize? Does it want light rail and a crosstown freeway? Does it think that the politicos at city hall are easily spooked and influenced by a handful of fanatics?

[InTheBurbs]

It looks like the AC Marriott at 5th and Broadway is a step closer to being approved, with the space above the MLK garage being used as event/market space.

From today's Inside Tucson Business (http://www.insidetucsonbusiness.com/construction_real_estate/tucson-may-award-incentives-to-downtown-hotel-retail-project/article_558fcf58-b076-11e3-b975-0019bb2963f4.html):

"Scott Stiteler’s Fifth and Congress Project – a 147-room AC Marriott hotel, a 200-space parking garage, three restaurants and close to 10,000 square feet of retail — could snag a property tax exemption, an $8 million city-facilitated federal loan, site-specific sales tax incentives and other “by right” incentives for his $45 million venture, which should be completely built out by late 2016.

The city council approved the next step in the economic incentives process, an independent economic analysis of the project, at its meeting this week.

Stiteler also plans to make use of the site above the MLK parking garage with a flexible marketplace of temporary structures called Menu. Patterned after the two-block PROXY in San Francisco, Menu would house food, art, retail and events in temporary structures. This is not part of the incentive application, but would open around the same time."

[Patrick S]

Tucson strikes annexation deal for proposed Southside shopping plaza (http://www.insidetucsonbusiness.com/construction_real_estate/tucson-strikes-annexation-deal-for-proposed-southside-shopping-plaza/article_cf69c3a0-b077-11e3-9f7b-0019bb2963f4.html)

The city of Tucson is prepared to annex a pocket of land at Kolb and Valencia roads that could eventually bring a rush of retail into a part of the Southside that has been largely industrial and residential.

There’s no clear timeline yet for developers’ visions, a large shopping center that could put more than 1.3 million square feet of shop space on the roughly 160 acres of raw land between the Port of Tucson and the Boneyard at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base. That depends on potential road improvements in the area.

The Tucson City Council agreed to a pre-annexation and development agreement at Tuesday’s meeting.

Developer Mike Farley said he can’t say much until the Regional Transportation Authority has taken action on whether to realign Valencia Road. The RTA will present an update on the project in late April.

“We’re not talking to anybody now and I won’t be, won’t even make an effort until that road decision is finalized,” Farley said.

Thus, development is not necessarily imminent; actual development may not be for years, the city said.

But based on a hypothetical timeline of construction starting this year and the first shop opening in 2015, with one new business coming online every other month through 2022, the project could be worth a cumulative $37.7 million in tax revenues over a 10-year period, mostly in retail sales taxes.

The Kolb-Valencia intersection has been contentious. Farley sued Pima County last year for breach of contract over a planned realignment of the congested intersection, which started with the county and is now in the hands of the Regional Transportation Authority. Farley contended the county backed away from the new road in an act of political retribution. The county denied the assertion.

There are currently no large retail shopping centers within a three-mile radius of the Kolb and Valencia intersection. The immediate area is industrial, but dense residential neighborhoods, built within the last 10 or so years, are within three miles of the site’s southwest and southeast corners.

Farley said the property was in escrow with a big California retail developer in 2007, but then the recession strangled the real estate market. He said he doesn’t know when retailers will come back, but somebody was interested at one time.

Chris Kaselemis, director of the city’s Economic Initiatives program, said the city has talked with Farley about annexation off and on for years. With annexation, the owner will be in a better position to market the property, he said.

City staff will gather necessary property owner signatures and return to the council with a proposed ordinance to approve the annexation at a later date.

The city says it prefers to annex land before it’s been developed because that makes it easier to gather the needed signatures, typically only one. After a development has been built out, at least half of the property owners representing at least half of the assessed value of the property must sign the petition.

[cdsuofa]

Long time reader, first time poster.

I think Tucson would be heading the wrong direction if they tried to expand the streetcar as shown on the map. The current streetcar stock purchased by the city has a max speed of around 40-43 mph. That is the max speed, so typical running speeds will be lucky to reach the high 30's. For small distances in dense neighborhoods, streetcars are the best answers. For large cross town travel, Tucson should be much more focused on light rail. Light rail trains have a max speed of 60 mph which would be much more efficient and require a dedicated ROW.

The argument for using streetcars because the infrastructure is already in place should not be considered. Why pay for a system build-out that is inefficient?

I can think of 1 or 2 small routes that could be added to the streetcar mainly south campus around the sports venues and possibly connecting that area with the route ending at UMC. Other than that the light rail was meant just to connect campus and downtown and that's all it should do. Now a light Rail System which is obviously completely different as far as speed, capacity, size etcetcetc is a good idea. From what Ive read on a couple Tucson sites the Broadway rd west of Campbell Improvements are to include extra space for a light rail system so it seems clear the city has its construction in our relative future it is clearly going to be built eventually but i wouldnt expect any type of system that can get people places running before 2020 but It will be constructed IMO. I like the idea of starting it off from downtown to Park Place mall and have that operational well before any other routes are started to use as almost a guide for the rest of the routes. They could learn how best to handle intersections, where stops should be located(distance from stoplights and things like that, not popularity wise) and even other design features. That would be how I would go about doing it, get that route done wellll before other projects are started, it can even be mixed in with the Broadway improvements and then learn as much as we can from that route to make the rest of the system very efficient. For example I would like to see the lightrail go as unimpeded as possible. What would be the best ways to do this? More importantly what would people be willing to pay for? With Tucson's grid design there is a semi major or major intersection every 1/4 mile... atleast. If u put a line on a major arterial road how often would it be stopping at lights or for turning cars? Would Tucsonan's pay to elevate or lower certain sections? I just want this to be done once and most important the best way possible. If that means waiting 5 extra years for more money than so be it. This will be with our city forever.