Winnipeg Jets

[esquire]

^ Is the funding tied specifically to arena upgrades? I thought it was just an operating subsidy to be used however TNSE wanted.

I agree that stuff like boards, lighting, media space, etc. has to be a certain way to meet "NHL standards" but other cosmetic stuff that has been upgraded like the jumbotron, concourse lighting, more lounges, etc. is totally up to TNSE.

[cheswick]

^ Is the funding tied specifically to arena upgrades? I thought it was just an operating subsidy to be used however TNSE wanted.

I agree that stuff like boards, lighting, media space, etc. has to be a certain way to meet "NHL standards" but other cosmetic stuff that has been upgraded like the jumbotron, concourse lighting, more lounges, etc. is totally up to TNSE.

I've been told that part of the VLT shark tank monies agreement with TNSE there was a requirement for arena enhancements. To make it more politically palpable, instead of giving money to a pro NHL team, it was to enhance a "public facility". I could have been misinformed though.

[CoryB]

I wonder if the NHL planning to change suppliers for jerseys has anything to do with it? I'd expect a lot of sales on Adidas stock before they change over to Fanatics.

Just a guess but I would guess that uniform design falls under IP law and changing the supply would mean needing to change up the designs in some ways. For a lot of teams those are smaller changes, just enough that the previous company isn't getting ongoing revenue from the previous design. Compare the Jets 2.0 jersey from the early days under Rebook to the Adidas design on the past season. There are definitely some subtitle changes you can spot easily once you are in the know. An example in the NHL cresting on the front in the mid neckline is drastically different. I am sure there are others.

That is because they screwed up in 2004, by building the arena too small.

Going back to 2004 you have to keep in mind True North needing government funding to make CLC happen. That same government needed a solution to the Eaton's problem that was rotting away at Portage and Donald. The compromise was reached to help fund the new arena if it was built on that exact site. They even made Hargrave significantly narrower to make the site work. So yes, all sorts of compromises were made on the CLC design in 2004 but the reality is there was no other viable alternative at the time and if those choices were not made the NHL wouldn't have come back here.

NHL arena sizes are actually increasing. Quick someone tell Bettman and point out the seating capacity of Mullet, the new permanent home of the Coyotes. :cool:

[esquire]

Just a guess but I would guess that uniform design falls under IP law and changing the supply would mean needing to change up the designs in some ways. For a lot of teams those are smaller changes, just enough that the previous company isn't getting ongoing revenue from the previous design. Compare the Jets 2.0 jersey from the early days under Rebook to the Adidas design on the past season. There are definitely some subtitle changes you can spot easily once you are in the know. An example in the NHL cresting on the front in the mid neckline is drastically different. I am sure there are others.

Yeah, even if there are no "new jerseys" planned, the jerseys inevitably change subtly because the templates vary from one manufacturer to another. For instance, the old Reebok Montreal Canadiens jersey looks a bit different than the Adidas version because of the template differences, but the actual team colours and schemes remain the same as they have for decades.

But whenever a new template comes out, the old ones go on clearance. So my theory was that they were perhaps marking down the current Jets jerseys to get rid of them before they have to put them on blowout clearance sale once the new ones come out.

[pspeid]

I have to say i'm enjoying watching Paul Maurice's success with the Florida Panthers so far this post-season. They guy the Jets apparently wouldn't listen to is coaching his team in an epic playoff run; Boston down, Leafs most likely next.

I admit I personally know nothing about the dynamic in the Jet's locker room, and I don't think any one person or group is to blame for their difficulties, but it's hard to think the Jet's problems largely stem from anything other than a disgruntled segment of the players.

SO....maybe the off-season doesn't mean a total rebuild, but a shipping out of the most disgruntled, whomever they may be.

[BlackDog204]

Just a guess but I would guess that uniform design falls under IP law and changing the supply would mean needing to change up the designs in some ways. For a lot of teams those are smaller changes, just enough that the previous company isn't getting ongoing revenue from the previous design. Compare the Jets 2.0 jersey from the early days under Rebook to the Adidas design on the past season. There are definitely some subtitle changes you can spot easily once you are in the know. An example in the NHL cresting on the front in the mid neckline is drastically different. I am sure there are others.

Doubtful.

Going back to 2004 you have to keep in mind True North needing government funding to make CLC happen. That same government needed a solution to the Eaton's problem that was rotting away at Portage and Donald. The compromise was reached to help fund the new arena if it was built on that exact site. They even made Hargrave significantly narrower to make the site work. So yes, all sorts of compromises were made on the CLC design in 2004 but the reality is there was no other viable alternative at the time and if those choices were not made the NHL wouldn't have come back here.

Once again, if the city and province knew the Jets were to return, they would have allocated more funding for a new arena. This is pretty much a no-brainer. Governments tend to be more receptive to provide more funding to a facility with a major league tenant, than a minor league tenant. As for viable alternatives, the city could have put the new arena in a number of locations. if they desired to do so. There was a plan to convert the old Eatons to residential housing units, while gutting the inside to make way for an atrium, similar to what is happening with the old Hudson Bay building.

Quick someone tell Bettman and point out the seating capacity of Mullet, the new permanent home of the Coyotes. :cool:

Now you are just being disingenuous.

There is a very real possibility that the Coyotes will be in Houston by 2024, if their new arena proposal falls through.

[thurmas]

hindsight is 20-20 the arena was being planned in 2001-2002 just 5 or 6 years after the jets had left, our population was still stagnant and not growing and the NHL had just expanded to several sun belt cities. At that time there was zero inclination Winnipeg would ever be in the running for an NHL tea, again. Chipman was very lucky he got the 15,000 seats as all indicators were that the politicians only wanted 10 or 11,000 seats for a AHL arena.

[esquire]

hindsight is 20-20 the arena was being planned in 2001-2002 just 5 or 6 years after the jets had left, our population was still stagnant and not growing and the NHL had just expanded to several sun belt cities. At that time there was zero inclination Winnipeg would ever be in the running for an NHL tea, again. Chipman was very lucky he got the 15,000 seats as all indicators were that the politicians only wanted 10 or 11,000 seats for a AHL arena.

As I recall it was the other way around, TNSE initially pitched an 11,000 or 12,000 or so seat arena for the land south of the Convention Centre. Then once the politicians got involved, the proposal moved to the Eaton's site and the capacity increased to 15,000. I do remember Glen Murray giving himself credit for insisting that the new arena have (roughly) at least as many seats as the old one, it's possible that Gary Doer and whatever federal minister was involved (Ron Duhamel?) likely had some impact on that too.

Kind of makes me wonder what TNSE's initial game plan was... were they really going to go ahead with an 11,000 seat arena for the Moose and concerts without any regard for the future possibility of the NHL? I suppose it did seem like a distant dream at that point... the Moose were floundering to some extent and then, as now, the CAD was slumping badly. There also was no salary cap in place in the NHL.

[drew]

I may be the minority - but I think the current capacity of the arena is just about perfect for this city.

The only time it suffers is on a some measuring contest lists with various city's and the capacity of the local arena gets highlighted.

But in actual practice - it's genius IMO.

I hope they keep the current arena for as long as possible.

[BlackDog204]

As I recall it was the other way around, TNSE initially pitched an 11,000 or 12,000 or so seat arena for the land south of the Convention Centre. Then once the politicians got involved, the proposal moved to the Eaton's site and the capacity increased to 15,000. I do remember Glen Murray giving himself credit for insisting that the new arena have (roughly) at least as many seats as the old one, it's possible that Gary Doer and whatever federal minister was involved (Ron Duhamel?) likely had some impact on that too.

^This.

This is exactly what I recall hearing too As for the location, in 1991, a months long study was released by the city about what arena was best for the Jets- a 18,000 free standing arena, or a Multiplex (similar to the Fargo Dome) for the Bombers and Jets. It concluded that the free standing arena (Shankerow's idea), was the far better option for the Winnipeg Jets.

There was an article back in the spring of 1991, when the results of the study were made public in the Free Press, with the headline "Paradise on a Parking Lot?" which showed the lot south of the Convention Centre, where the arena was proposed to be built.

Kind of makes me wonder what TNSE's initial game plan was... were they really going to go ahead with an 11,000 seat arena for the Moose and concerts without any regard for the future possibility of the NHL? I suppose it did seem like a distant dream at that point... the Moose were floundering to some extent and then, as now, the CAD was slumping badly. There also was no salary cap in place in the NHL.

I truly believe that in 2001, Chipman was content with the Moose. This is assuming it would be years later that he struck up his business partnership with David Thomson. Chipman himself would never be able afford to buy an NHL franchise by himself (He was originally part of the "Spirit of Manitoba" group in 1995 as a minority partner).

[esquire]

^ You are referencing the failed Manitoba Gardens arena proposal for the Jets around 1990 or thereabouts.

After the Jets left in 1996, TNSE floated the idea of a new arena on the same site by the Convention Centre... I don't remember exactly when, but it would have been around 1999 or thereabouts (we'd have to look back in the newspaper archives to confirm exactly when). But since Eaton's closed down for good in 1999, the plan shifted to that site instead, which was owned by David Thomson's Osmington, and the rest is history.

[BlackDog204]

I may be the minority - but I think the current capacity of the arena is just about perfect for this city.

The only time it suffers is on a some measuring contest lists with various city's and the capacity of the local arena gets highlighted.

But in actual practice - it's genius IMO.

I hope they keep the current arena for as long as possible.

It's a perfect size....for Saskatoon or Halifax.

For a city with an NHL team, ideally, it woiuld be 17,500 seats.

Don't drink the TNSE kool-aid. If they could turn back time, and with the knowledge that the Jets would return 10 years after they made plans to build a new arena, said arena would have a minimum capacity of 17,000 seats.

PS...if you think the arena is a "perfect size for our city" then you must think Winnipeg is second rate. "Typical Winnipeg" is what one acquaintance from Winnipeg I worked with in Calgary 2006 said, when I told him about the new arena, and the fact that they built it to 15.015 seats, after the city and province said they would only provide funding if capacity was minimum 15,000.

Of the Canadian cities with a population over 650,000, only Winnipeg does not have an arena with 17,000 seats. Hamilton and Quebec don't even have an NHL team, and their arenas are both larger than our arena.

[BlackDog204]

^ You are referencing the failed Manitoba Gardens arena proposal for the Jets around 1990 or thereabouts.

That's correct. The study was released in May 1991, and as a result Shankerow and the Province of Manitoba struck a deal in the fall, covering the Jets losses through to the 1994-95 season, in exchange for Shankerow promising not to move the team, and to try and find local owners to buy the Jets.

[thurmas]

As I recall it was the other way around, TNSE initially pitched an 11,000 or 12,000 or so seat arena for the land south of the Convention Centre. Then once the politicians got involved, the proposal moved to the Eaton's site and the capacity increased to 15,000. I do remember Glen Murray giving himself credit for insisting that the new arena have (roughly) at least as many seats as the old one, it's possible that Gary Doer and whatever federal minister was involved (Ron Duhamel?) likely had some impact on that too.

Kind of makes me wonder what TNSE's initial game plan was... were they really going to go ahead with an 11,000 seat arena for the Moose and concerts without any regard for the future possibility of the NHL? I suppose it did seem like a distant dream at that point... the Moose were floundering to some extent and then, as now, the CAD was slumping badly. There also was no salary cap in place in the NHL.

Sorry my bad you are correct when I think more clearly back to my high school days in that era.

[drew]

It's a perfect size....for Saskatoon or Halifax.

For a city with an NHL team, ideally, it woiuld be 17,500 seats.

Don't drink the TNSE kool-aid. If they could turn back time, and with the knowledge that the Jets would return 10 years after they made plans to build a new arena, said arena would have a minimum capacity of 17,000 seats.

PS...if you think the arena is a "perfect size for our city" then you must think Winnipeg is second rate. "Typical Winnipeg" is what one acquaintance from Winnipeg I worked with in Calgary 2006 said, when I told him about the new arena, and the fact that they built it to 15.015 seats, after the city and province said they would only provide funding if capacity was minimum 15,000.

Of the Canadian cities with a population over 650,000, only Winnipeg does not have an arena with 17,000 seats. Hamilton and Quebec don't even have an NHL team, and their arenas are both larger than our arena.

You just proved my point. Capacity is only important if you are in some argument wrt city size and arena capacity. No of us should care about Halifax, or Saskatoon. Just be happy we have an nhl team and an arena that cost a fraction of what any other city is going to be paying or has paid.

What does an extra 2,000 seats gain?

How much do those extra 2,000 seats cost?

[The Jabroni]

Why the hell are we talking about seating capacity increases? It's not gonna happen unless we get a completely new arena in at least another 20 years, if ever. We've talked about this over and over again over the course of nearly 20 years when the NHL wasn't even in the radar, CLC was under construction, the Moose were 2 years into the AHL, and we were beginning to come to terms with ourselves with a renaissance in the city with many planned projects back then, including CLC, and that the NHL would be a pipe dream.

Don't kid yourself with increasing capacity of the arena, because it's never gonna happen from a practical standpoint. It's already a great as it is, and does have a bit of an intimate atmosphere. As much as I would LOVE to see more people in the arena, the key is to keep the people selling out the arena, and 9 out of the 12 years the NHL has been back in this city has proven that with nightly sellouts in the regular season.

Yes, we've struggled to fill the arena in the last 3 years, mostly because of COVID, and other reasons being inflation and 3% incremental increases of season ticket sales over the course of those 12 years.

With this past season being any indication, it's actually the first time they experienced struggling ticket sales with most nights not selling out without any government mandated restrictions due to the pandemic. Can't really blame ticket sales from that anymore, so the blame can be seen mostly with inflation rates, but also partly because of the product on the ice, ups and downs included.

Now everyone is talking that there's this similar uncertainty like it was last year on what the future of the team is during the off-season, whether we rebuild or not, or if it's a coaching issue. Clearly it wasn't a coaching issue after this year, so there is something going on in the locker room, and even with management, which they already made themselves clear that nothing will happen, at least in the management side of things going into next season.

Now going back to seating capacities, how will any of this will merit a seating capacity increase when we are already struggling with ticket sales to sell out arenas? When you see those Winnipeg Jets ads with deals going on, what does that really mean? Yes, a deal is a deal, but also it's a sign that tickets aren't selling out as they once did, because of reasons stated earlier.

Seating capacity increases will NOT solve struggling ticket sales, even if it's a short term or long term cycle that we are going through. As it stands right now, TNSE staying the course by making improvements here and there, as well as investing in the downtown area over the last 20 years, is the most logical thing for them right now.

And yes, the amount of concert stops we had since CLC opened is amazing, and that 9 out of 10 times, big name artists will make their stop here, rather than 60% of the time, all the time back when the old barn was still kicking.

There's always room for improvement for all areas with TNSE, including how they handled their customers and long time season ticket holders this season. I just hope they had a major wake up call from that.

[Biff]

I believe this was the proposal for next to the convention centre. It was very big city and I remember being very excited about all of it. The image quality is definitely lacking.

And I agree with Drew. I feel the arena capacity is just about right, maybe 16k as a max but that is a minor difference. My only wish was for more open space in the corridors.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AJFCJaVcc_J57KwuqYoC0rUjQ-kHvf8_cW6vrY2YG_IS-pbowzLeDQw3NEsS5v3Jph4sDB6Ng8kzJMckLRxn84XR5N3ZdStKN2HPcZUuANScPYDaQQyWJ0_za3_N19DpwYfnX_JajFPCz2V3cF0H3iw81N0q=w930-h731-s-no?authuser=0

[esquire]

^ Nice, thanks... I remember that Manitoba Gardens rendering from when it was first released. At the time it seemed hard to believe that something like that might actually get built in Winnipeg.

It's interesting to consider what it would have been like had a new arena gone up on the site south of the Convention Centre. It could have made for a roomier, more spacious arena, even though it's unlikely the seating capacity would have been any higher.

It probably would have given commercial activity on Broadway a little push, I could see there being a few (but not many) shops, restaurants, etc. along that strip.

Around the Y2K era there was, as now, some concern over the direction of Portage Avenue. The feeling was that some big projects could help turn it around, and the arena was one of them. It's clear in hindsight that even massive projects like Portage Place, Hydro and a NHL arena have barely moved the needle down there. I'm not sure that Portage Avenue would have been tangibly worse off had the arena been built on York Avenue instead.

[CoryB]

Doubtful.

Uniform design is 100% covered under IP laws such as copyright. The question is who owns the IP. In terms of NHL jerseys they are likely using team and league owned design elements under authorized use but the final product is owned by the company making them, ie Adidas. It is also notable that jersey designs include IP that is owned by the companies that make them such as the brand name and other protected design elements from the brand.

It would seem likely that the overall completed design is licensed back to the league/team for future use but a change from say Adidas to Fanatics would result in Adidas continuing to receive payment for its work unless a new design is made. Otherwise why would the uniform companies be constantly introducing design changes and new alternates? Yes revenue generation is part of it but not just for the team. Otherwise why would there be so much interest from companies is getting pro sports contracts to make jerserys?

Once again, if the city and province knew the Jets were to return, they would have allocated more funding for a new arena.

I could not more strongly disagree. Sure there may have been other proposals floated for the Eaton's building but it is no different than the Hudson Bay building in that refuse has been discussed for decades but they are cost prohibitive and no one is coming to the table with the necessary cash. It was also a very different time with many effectively vacant or even boarded up buildings on Portage Ave. Something needed to be done and CLC was that project. The site restrictions caused the design choices limiting the building capacity as much as anything else.

Now you are just being disingenuous.

There is a very real possibility that the Coyotes will be in Houston by 2024, if their new arena proposal falls through.

From what I have read the Coyotes Tempe arena plans are effectively dead. The City of Phoenix and Skyharbor Airport are actively using their rights to block it from proceeding and there is now a lawsuit underway over it. Unless there is already a deal effectively done on the Houston move the team will be playing out of Mullett at least one more season. And being real here the crowds in places like Glendale before the move to Mullett and Sunrise show that maybe an arena with 10,000 or less seats in some of these southern markets may not necessarily be a bad thing if that is what the league is truly wanting to do long term to be in these markets. The Coyotes almost giving away tickets to get warm bodies into Glendale was never a sustainable thing and it is a big part of why they couldn't pay the costs to stay in that building. The reality is the Tempe arena plan is as much about putting a newer facility than Footprint Center (where the Suns play) at a closer location the the affluent Scottsdale for non-hockey events such as concerts as it is given the Coyotes a home. Not to mention if the NHL is less on the extreme edges of the greater Phoenix metro it might be easier to pull in more casual fans.

The reality here is the Coyotes are going to play out of Mullett for 5+ seasons unless the Bettman and the NHL are finally going to permanently walk away from being in the Phoenix metro area.

Kind of makes me wonder what TNSE's initial game plan was... were they really going to go ahead with an 11,000 seat arena for the Moose and concerts without any regard for the future possibility of the NHL?


Just a guess but if the 11,000 arena had happened in Winnipeg for the Moose it would likely have included a design plan to add additional seats in a future 300 level but in a manner that worked a heck of a lot better than the expansion that was bolted on to the old Winnipeg Arena.

[esquire]

Just a guess but if the 11,000 arena had happened in Winnipeg for the Moose it would likely have included a design plan to add additional seats in a future 300 level but in a manner that worked a heck of a lot better than the expansion that was bolted on to the old Winnipeg Arena.

Yeah, true. SaskTel Centre is an example of an arena with a full-sized NHL shell but without all the seating slabs installed on day one. They were added over time to the point where there are now over 15,000 seats, and there is still room to add a few sections worth of seating. It may have been like that.

[BlackDog204]

*double post*

[BlackDog204]

From what I have read the Coyotes Tempe arena plans are effectively dead.

It took me all of 30 seconds, to discover that the vote for the new Tempe arena is May 16, 2023. The city will decide where to go from there.

And being real here the crowds in places like Glendale before the move to Mullett and Sunrise show that maybe an arena with 10,000 or less seats in some of these southern markets may not necessarily be a bad thing if that is what the league is truly wanting to do long term to be in these markets.

The NHL is a gate-driven league. It always has been. If teams built 10,000 seat arenas, they would not be economically viable. Aside from that, your insinuation that southern based NHL teams are not drawing as well as traditional markets, is factually incorrect.

Of all sunbelt teams, only Anaheim has an attendance lower than 16,600 fans, which is 2,600 more than a hockey crazed market like Winnipeg drew. In fact, even when Arizona was playing out of Glendale, they never once had attendance dip below 13,000 fans, in any season that they played in the last decade. So what sense does building a 10,000 seat arena make?


The reality here is the Coyotes are going to play out of Mullett for 5+ seasons unless the Bettman and the NHL are finally going to permanently walk away from being in the Phoenix metro area.

The reality is, that the Coyotes will relocate, rather than play in a 4,600 seat arena, long term.

[BlackDog204]

Yeah, true. SaskTel Centre is an example of an arena with a full-sized NHL shell but without all the seating slabs installed on day one. They were added over time to the point where there are now over 15,000 seats, and there is still room to add a few sections worth of seating. It may have been like that.

The interesting backstory on the SaskTel Centre, is that the arena was born out of a desire to land a team in Saskatoon.

In 1983, Bill Hunter (who was instrumental in the creation of the Edmonton Oilers in the WHA), made a deal with owners of the St.Louis Blues, with the sole intention of moving the NHL team to Saskatoon, to begin play for the 1983-84 season.

However, the NHL refused to ratify the sale, as the owners voted 15-3 against moving the Blues (with 3 absentee votes). The sale was nullified, and the original Blues ownership was so incensed, that they padlocked the St.Louis arena, and refused to partake in the 1983 NHL draft, so the Blues never selected any players that year.

The NHL took over the Blues, and eventually sold them to a group that would keep them in the city. After this transpired, Saskatoon voted to construct an arena, that could be expanded to 16,000 seats, if necessary. I believe it opened in 1988. The only problem is that they built it in a bad location (downtown Saskatoon would have been ideal). It sits in an industrial area along the northern outskirts of the city today.

It should be noted that Saskatoon is currently planning on replacing SaskTel Centre with a new downtown arena.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx6JKKohfUU&ab_channel=CBCSaskatchewan

[Highwayman]

Of all sunbelt teams, only Anaheim has an attendance lower than 16,600 fans, which is 2,600 more than a hockey crazed market like Winnipeg drew. In fact, even when Arizona was playing out of Glendale, they never once had attendance dip below 13,000 fans, in any season that they played in the last decade. So what sense does building a 10,000 seat arena make?




.
Where did you get these numbers for Arizona??? I been to games when they were in theirnso called prime and the arena was half empty. Also your comparison of seat sales in Ducky Land is a wrong way of doing a fair comparison. When here an average ticket is $100 plus dollars and in most Southern ones it's $20. Heck when I went to see the Yotes it was $15 for lower bowl. When I went and seen Panthers once it was $25. When I was in LA it was $30. This was all in the last 10 years!!!!!! Last time I seen a Jets ticket at those prices was 1986!!!!

And for saying the NHL is gate driven. Maybe some team at some point in history. But even Mr Bettman claims at least the reason for keeping the Yotes in Arizona is because of thr lucrative advertising sales. Now we can take Bettman with a grain of salt. But there is some truth to his comment. The NHL is a much different money maker then it was in thr 80's and 90's. Ticket sales are one thing but I'd say for alot of the teams in larger market's tickets sales are not the main income.

[BlackDog204]

Where did you get these numbers for Arizona??? I been to games when they were in theirnso called prime and the arena was half empty. Also your comparison of seat sales in Ducky Land is a wrong way of doing a fair comparison. When here an average ticket is $100 plus dollars and in most Southern ones it's $20. Heck when I went to see the Yotes it was $15 for lower bowl. When I went and seen Panthers once it was $25. When I was in LA it was $30. This was all in the last 10 years!!!!!! Last time I seen a Jets ticket at those prices was 1986!!!!

Calm down, Skippy.

https://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=7450

First off, here is the official attendance history for the Arizona Coyotes.

I've purchased tickets in Edmonton and Calgary far below market pricing...many cases $40 Canadian, so that is hardly surprising. I've even heard one can buy tickets in Winnipeg, of all places far cheaper than what it costs season ticket holders, since the demand has now dried up, and the Jets are not selling out. In fact, I've heard on the Jets sub-forum of HFBoards, that many gave up their season tickets recently, and found game day tickets as low as $30 on the secondary market. This happens in every market where teams don't sellout every night. When you claim the "average ticket price in southern US NHL markets is $20", your credibility takes a hit, since that is very easy to disprove.


https://globalnews.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/NHL-game.jpg?w=2048


And for saying the NHL is gate driven. Maybe some team at some point in history. But even Mr Bettman claims at least the reason for keeping the Yotes in Arizona is because of thr lucrative advertising sales. Now we can take Bettman with a grain of salt. But there is some truth to his comment. The NHL is a much different money maker then it was in thr 80's and 90's. Ticket sales are one thing but I'd say for alot of the teams in larger market's tickets sales are not the main income.

From 2020:

"According to several sources, a few owners have suggested to Bettman that the league might be better off financially if it shuts down next season, since playing in empty arenas could be crippling to the bottom line. The NHL is still very much a gate-driven league in comparison to a league like the NFL, which draws most of its revenue from media rights. Bettman responded that the NHL can’t lose a season because it’s too damaging in the long term, as the league has learned before in lockout seasons."

source: https://russianmachineneverbreaks.com/2020/11/02/report-several-owners-have-told-gary-bettman-the-nhl-might-be-better-off-financially-not-playing-next-season/

It's been common knowledge for decades that the NHL needs to rely on gate receipts far more than the other three major leagues.

[blueandgoldguy]

Announced attendance is tickets distributed (sold and given away), not actual people in the arena. It's been like this for quite some time. While teams like the Coyotes and Thrashers and Ducks would average 13,000 or more, the reality in the arena most nights was different. There have been plenty of times over the past decade or two where there was likely 8,000 or less in those arenas.

Look at the Winnipeg Valour. Usually official attendance for their matches would be 2500 - 3500 but whenever I watch highlights of their games, there are probably nor more than a 1,000 people at the game. Again tickets distributed vs. people actually attending the game.

[CoryB]

Cory, no offense, but where do you come up with this? The NHL is a gate-driven league. It always has been. If teams built 10,000 seat arenas, they would not be economically viable. Aside from that, your insinuation that southern based NHL teams are not drawing as well as traditional markets, is factually incorrect.

The interesting thing is if you look at it the Coyotes average attendance for 2021-2022, their last season is Glendale, is just over 11,000. Having been to more than a few games in Glendale in the past where the visiting team isn't a midwest team like the Jets or Wild there is no way that had even that many people there. The team actively sells large blocks of tickets, likely dressed up as "season ticket holders" to resellers to the point they needed to create a special license for resellers that actively work on site on game days to get butts into seats. They do all sorts of other promotions to get any body, living or otherwise, into their seats. There is zero chance they told over half their true STH to kick rocks when they moved to Mullett and their actually STH base is seemingly under 5,000 as they are actively trying to sell to new people.

I know less about the situation in Sunrise but is hard to overlook how empty the lower bowl in the arena is anything you watch a game on tv. It is near impossible to believe the building is more than half full and somehow there are so few people sitting the the section of seats that the tv cameras cover. The only believable explanation is that like the Coyotes in Glendale the Panthers have a lot of paper-only STH and their true game attendance is far lower than their official numbers.

The reality is, that the Coyotes will relocate, rather than play in a 4,600 seat arena, long term.

I am not disagreeing with you there but considering the league has literally let the Coyotes go bankrupt and the other teams in the league bail them out so they could remain in Phoenix I doubt they will relocate for next season of even 2024-2025. The sad reality there is the more limited seating in Mullett lets the team charge slightly more per seat than Glendale. Add in the likely lower operational costs at Mullett and the perceived rarity of tickets potentially increasing interest in the team and Mullett could actually be a profitable move for the Coyotes. Yes a different league but it has some similarities on when the CFL Allouettes "temporarily" moved to the, at the time, perceived undersized Molson Stadium, which went on to become their permanent home.

That said the Tempe arena plan for the Coyotes is in an airport exclusion zone, similar to Polo Park locally, causing all sorts of objections and legal action. Unless everyone puts their lawyers away and starts talking calmly this won't be resolved anytime soon.

Source (https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/report-arizona-coyotes-announce-2-3b-lawsuit-over-arena-plans/)

[BlackDog204]

The interesting thing is if you look at it the Coyotes average attendance for 2021-2022, their last season is Glendale, is just over 11,000. Having been to more than a few games in Glendale in the past where the visiting team isn't a midwest team like the Jets or Wild there is no way that had even that many people there. The team actively sells large blocks of tickets, likely dressed up as "season ticket holders" to resellers to the point they needed to create a special license for resellers that actively work on site on game days to get butts into seats. They do all sorts of other promotions to get any body, living or otherwise, into their seats. There is zero chance they told over half their true STH to kick rocks when they moved to Mullett and their actually STH base is seemingly under 5,000 as they are actively trying to sell to new people.

I would not be surprised. Arizona has always been a shitshow, and arguably the most poorly run existing major league franchise. I've heard rumours that the one team Connor Bedard would refuse to report to was Arizona.

However, the other southern based US cities, the NHL is doing remarkably well. There was a time when nobody thought teams like Carolina, Tampa Bay, and Nashville would sellout nearly every game, yet here we are.

I've heard hockey is, and will always be a niche sport for half of the United States, meaning that they will always have a fiercely loyal, but insignificant fan base. I'm willing to bet a good percentage of fans in Vegas, Dallas, Tampa, and Carolina are people that want to either go for the experience, or maybe try something different. It's not like Canada, where nearly everyone in the arena knows the players and how well they are doing.

Having said that, the NHL has got to the point where they can put a team literally in any US city with a large metro area, and make it work with good ownership.

I know less about the situation in Sunrise but is hard to overlook how empty the lower bowl in the arena is anything you watch a game on tv. It is near impossible to believe the building is more than half full and somehow there are so few people sitting the the section of seats that the tv cameras cover. The only believable explanation is that like the Coyotes in Glendale the Panthers have a lot of paper-only STH and their true game attendance is far lower than their official numbers.

It's like that in Toronto, and it was like that when Gretzky played in LA. My guess is a considerable percentage of those seats (especially Toronto, NYC, and LA) belong to corporations, and are spoken for, but probably attended by people who are fashionably later, or don't bother getting used at all. The figures I have for the NHL clearly state that most US teams are making more revenue in tickets than the Jets are, so they are not giving away the seats.



I am not disagreeing with you there but considering the league has literally let the Coyotes go bankrupt and the other teams in the league bail them out so they could remain in Phoenix I doubt they will relocate for next season of even 2024-2025. The sad reality there is the more limited seating in Mullett lets the team charge slightly more per seat than Glendale. Add in the likely lower operational costs at Mullett and the perceived rarity of tickets potentially increasing interest in the team and Mullett could actually be a profitable move for the Coyotes.

The Mullett arena was meant as a short term home for the Coyotes. If the arena deal in Tempe dies, I can see the owners finally pulling the plug. It's been said that keeping the Coyotes was a matter of ego for a long time, due to the Jim Balsillie sage (he technically had a deal to move the team to Hamilton, but this was blocked by the NHL).

The NHL does not want a team in Quebec for a few reasons, and the new owner of the Toyota Center in Houston, has said he would be interested in bringing an NHL team to the area "if the price is right," so I assume that means he is balking at the $650 million expansion fee, and hoping to get the Coyotes for considerably less. I think we will have a good idea of where the Coyotes will be by the summer.

[BlackDog204]

Getting back to the Jets, I have heard sources reporting that numerous teams are extremely interested in Connor Hellebuyck, should he not resign with the Jets. The New Jersey Devils, in particular are not happy with their goaltending situation, and are looking at Helle to put them over the top.

I wonder what we can get for Helle? I'd hate to see him go, as I still have PTSD from the Pavelec years.

[wags_in_the_peg]

Jets are a draft & develop team, trade players when they are at their peak and get a huge return!

[Highwayman]

Getting back to the Jets, I have heard sources reporting that numerous teams are extremely interested in Connor Hellebuyck, should he not resign with the Jets. The New Jersey Devils, in particular are not happy with their goaltending situation, and are looking at Helle to put them over the top.

I wonder what we can get for Helle? I'd hate to see him go, as I still have PTSD from the Pavelec years.

All these rumours now with Helle is like PLD and Montreal.
Helle stated he IS NOT interested in a full rebuild.
The jets are NOT in a full rebuild. They need to dump a few players who cause issues in the locker room. Wheeler and Scheif. I can see Helle staying if that issues is solved this summer. And PLD would most likely stay as well, and would probably want the C. I don't k ow what PLD is like in the locker room but I'm sure he's more respected then Team Wheels. Even bringing in Toews for a decent fair price for a few years for his leadership skills would be a plus. Remember how Stansny was with the younger players.

But I highly doubt Helle is going anywhere. Just more rumours from the constant rumour mills.

[BlackDog204]

They need to dump a few players who cause issues in the locker room. Wheeler and Scheif. I can see Helle staying if that issues is solved this summer. And PLD would most likely stay as well, and would probably want the C. I don't k ow what PLD is like in the locker room but I'm sure he's more respected then Team Wheels. Even bringing in Toews for a decent fair price for a few years for his leadership skills would be a plus. Remember how Stansny was with the younger players.


PLD is probably not signing here, regardless of the statuts of Wheeler and Scheifele. The issue with PLD, is that he really wants to play in Montreal. He pretty much left Columbus the same way, and probably only agreed to the Laine trade, since his dad is coaching here.

Toews is almost certainly retiring. He is 35, and is bothered by long term health problems.

[dmacc]

PLD is probably not signing here, regardless of the statuts of Wheeler and Scheifele. The issue with PLD, is that he really wants to play in Montreal. He pretty much left Columbus the same way, and probably only agreed to the Laine trade, since his dad is coaching here.

Toews is almost certainly retiring. He is 35, and is bothered by long term health problems.

PLD didn't agree to come to Winnipeg, he had no choice as he has no rights this early in his career.

Toews has been very open about his battle with Long Covid. I could see the Jets engaging him with the team if he chooses to come back to Winnipeg. Hard to imagine he'll be playing again.

[TimeFadesAway]

Toews has been very open about his battle with Long Covid. I could see the Jets engaging him with the team if he chooses to come back to Winnipeg. Hard to imagine he'll be playing again.

If you want someone to ignore/cover up major issues on a team, then Toews is your man!

[rrskylar]

I may be the minority - but I think the current capacity of the arena is just about perfect for this city.

The only time it suffers is on a some measuring contest lists with various city's and the capacity of the local arena gets highlighted.

But in actual practice - it's genius IMO.

I hope they keep the current arena for as long as possible.

It's the right size if it had enough washrooms, proper leg room, wider concourses....everything about it is tight!

[BlackDog204]

If you want someone to ignore/cover up major issues on a team, then Toews is your man!

Still looking for witches in Salem?

[CoryB]

The NHL does not want a team in Quebec for a few reasons, and the new owner of the Toyota Center in Houston, has said he would be interested in bringing an NHL team to the area "if the price is right," so I assume that means he is balking at the $650 million expansion fee, and hoping to get the Coyotes for considerably less. I think we will have a good idea of where the Coyotes will be by the summer.

The NHL learned from Thrashers to Winnipeg just how difficult moving teams between conferences can be. As the league is now fully balanced between conferences and divisions which eastern team would move to Central to allow the Coyotes to move to Quebec City?

Honestly if there was a relocation happening to Quebec City I would think the likely candidate would be the Panthers.

As for the where the Coyotes could move to they would fairly obviously be moving east of Phoenix but staying within Central. Houston definitely fits that bill and sets up a nice rivalry with the Dallas Stars. The other possibility is Kanas City. With an NHL suitable arena that is less than 20 years old. They also had made the expansion shortlist with Vegas and Seattle. Clearly the next round of expansion would be adding four teams. Kanas or Houston in Central and someplace like Portland in Pacific. Quebec City is one of the two in the east but what is the fourth in the east?

[Highwayman]

The NHL learned from Thrashers to Winnipeg just how difficult moving teams between conferences can be. As the league is now fully balanced between conferences and divisions which eastern team would move to Central to allow the Coyotes to move to Quebec City?

Honestly if there was a relocation happening to Quebec City I would think the likely candidate would be the Panthers.

As for the where the Coyotes could move to they would fairly obviously be moving east of Phoenix but staying within Central. Houston definitely fits that bill and sets up a nice rivalry with the Dallas Stars. The other possibility is Kanas City. With an NHL suitable arena that is less than 20 years old. They also had made the expansion shortlist with Vegas and Seattle. Clearly the next round of expansion would be adding four teams. Kanas or Houston in Central and someplace like Portland in Pacific. Quebec City is one of the two in the east but what is the fourth in the east?

I'd love to see Kansas get their team back. Yes they had a team before. I'm not a fan of Houston. There was some big writeup awhile back about why the city doesn't need the NHL, and It was a paper From Houston. It made alot of good points. But if the NHL is going to allow smaller arenas then the door swings open for alot of cities.

As for the east.. I'd love to see Quebec back and most of all Hartford Whalers!!!!!

[BlackDog204]

The NHL learned from Thrashers to Winnipeg just how difficult moving teams between conferences can be. As the league is now fully balanced between conferences and divisions which eastern team would move to Central to allow the Coyotes to move to Quebec City?

The NHL is obviously quite pleased with the Winnipeg Jets, as they have stable ownership, and until recently sold out every game. That would not have happened in Atlanta, especially under the Atlanta Spirit Group. The league did not want to put a franchise in Winnipeg, but with the Thrashers ownership shutting them out of the arena, they had no alternative home.

The NHL had already taken over the Phoenix Coyotes, so it was a choice of either having the Thrashers possibly suspend operations, or move here. A franchise that folds would have a adverse effect on franchise values.

Honestly if there was a relocation happening to Quebec City I would think the likely candidate would be the Panthers.

I doubt Florida will go anywhere. They have been around for 30 years. Aside from that, the NHL is really not interested in moving a team to Quebec City, They will only go there if they absolutely have to.

As for the where the Coyotes could move to they would fairly obviously be moving east of Phoenix but staying within Central. Houston definitely fits that bill and sets up a nice rivalry with the Dallas Stars. The other possibility is Kanas City. With an NHL suitable arena that is less than 20 years old. They also had made the expansion shortlist with Vegas and Seattle. Clearly the next round of expansion would be adding four teams. Kanas or Houston in Central and someplace like Portland in Pacific. Quebec City is one of the two in the east but what is the fourth in the east?

It will definitely be Houston, at least at the moment. There is no ownership group in KC right now, and a potential owners went on record, saying there was no interest in paying $650 million to acquire a team. The ownership group in Houston that owns the Toyota Center, has gone on record stating that they are interested, but they are leery of paying $650 million for a team. My guess is that if the vote to build the new arena complex in Tempe falls through, the NHL will more than likely want to negotiate moving the franchise to the city.

[dmacc]

A team that moves from one city to another will not be subject the $650 mil expansion fee that Vegas and Seattle had to pay. When the Thrashers moved to Winnipeg the TN paid a $60 mil relocation fee. Any new city would likely be subject to that same fee, though still likely much higher that what the jets paid over a decade ago, maybe $150 mil?

[Highwayman]

A team that moves from one city to another will not be subject the $650 mil expansion fee that Vegas and Seattle had to pay. When the Thrashers moved to Winnipeg the TN paid a $60 mil relocation fee. Any new city would likely be subject to that same fee, though still likely much higher that what the jets paid over a decade ago, maybe $150 mil?

Still have to pay for the team itself. The $60 million was just to the NHL. TN still had to buy the Thrashers. Now sure what the Yotes are worth now. But I know the Jets value doubled from what they paid in 2011.

[CoryB]

My guess is that if the vote to build the new arena complex in Tempe falls through, the NHL will more than likely want to negotiate moving the franchise to the city.

My understanding it the Tempe vote on the arena is essentially a straw man as Skyharbour Airport is refusing to yield over their airport exclusion zone, in which the Tempe arena was planned to be built. To be fair PHX isn't directly blocking the arena but rather the supporting development and the arena developer is saying it is an all or nothing package deal.

My understanding of how it plays out in Sky Harbor (PHX) airport is jurisdictionally in the City of Phoenix while Tempe is adjacent to both and in the airport exclusion zone for noise abetment.

The May 16, 2023 vote in Tempe is on if residents support that city in their plans for the development. Even if that comes back with 100% of the arena development the lawsuits if that same development can happen would either still need to proceed to court or be withdrawn. This is far from over when the results of the vote come in this week.

For example read this: link (https://www.12news.com/article/news/local/valley/phoenix-suing-tempe-arizona-coyotes-complex-city-march-28/75-69cd8876-e50b-48d9-87c8-5250a273f255)

Edit: As a background read - how similar concerns from PHX in 2001 killed Cardinals plans to build an NFL stadium on a nearly identical site. link (https://roselawgroupreporter.com/2021/11/agency-that-killed-cardinals-stadium-in-tempe-lurks-over-coyote-arena-plans/)

[CoryB]

And there it is, Tempe voters rejected the arena deal for the Coyotes.

Is it now time for Bettman to own up to his mistake on relocating Jets 1.0?

https://theathletic.com/4526005/2023/05/17/arizona-coyotes-tempe-arena-vote/

[thurmas]

Winnipeg did have multiple opportunities from 1989 to 1995 to build the Jets 1.0 a new arena but fumbled it every single time.

[Biff]

I don't believe it was a mistake to relocate the Jets 1.0. It was sad for us, but as Thurmas said, we had chances to build a new arena like Phoenix has had and failed. The failure in Phoenix is all of the chances and prop-ups they have gotten over the years to keep their team only to see it continually fail. It seems that no one really wants to host the team there, so if there is no home it is time to finally move on.

[esquire]

In fairness we actually finally did get a deal worked out for a new arena in Winnipeg... the trouble was that by that point no one wanted to own the team (i.e. be liable for losses). The land that was cleared for the new rink ultimately became Shaw Park.

As for Phoenix, I feel for the tiny handful of true fans but let's face it... the city as a whole doesn't care. The Coyotes are to Phoenix like Valour FC is to Winnipeg... sure they're one of the home teams, but nowhere near top of mind. Time to move on.

[pspeid]

So let's say the Coyotes move to Atlanta. Jets 1.0/Coyotes 1.0 wind up being Atlanta 3.0, while Atlanta 2.0 became Jets 2.0 and Atlanta 1.0 became Calgary 1.0. Question: Who do Atlanta 3.0 become? Explain and show your work.

[thurmas]

So let's say the Coyotes move to Atlanta. Jets 1.0/Coyotes 1.0 wind up being Atlanta 3.0, while Atlanta 2.0 became Jets 2.0 and Atlanta 1.0 became Calgary 1.0. Question: Who do Atlanta 3.0 become? Explain and show your work.

Thunder Bay Flamey-Jets

[zalf]

Thunder Bay Flamey-Jets

Thunder Bay Afterburners

A more elegant synthesis, if I do say so myself.

[thurmas]

Thunder Bay Afterburners

A more elegant synthesis, if I do say so myself.

Yes much better, relocation will occur in 2038 book it!

[CoryB]

So let's say the Coyotes move to Atlanta. Jets 1.0/Coyotes 1.0 wind up being Atlanta 3.0, while Atlanta 2.0 became Jets 2.0 and Atlanta 1.0 became Calgary 1.0. Question: Who do Atlanta 3.0 become? Explain and show your work.

Atlanta 3.0 would then play out of what is currently the Atlantic division to be with the two Florida teams which also is the current home to the Leafs, Senators and Candiens. When the inevitable happens Atlanta 3.0 would relocate to Quebec City and become the Nordics 2.0. Somewhat fitting that ever time Atlanta fails the relocate to Canada. Also as Saskatoon still doesn't have a team there would be home for Atlanta 4.0 :haha:

[dmacc]

Still have to pay for the team itself. The $60 million was just to the NHL. TN still had to buy the Thrashers. Now sure what the Yotes are worth now. But I know the Jets value doubled from what they paid in 2011.

I believe the TN paid $170 mil with $60 mil of that being the relocation fee.

[BlackDog204]

And there it is, Tempe voters rejected the arena deal for the Coyotes.

Is it now time for Bettman to own up to his mistake on relocating Jets 1.0?

https://theathletic.com/4526005/2023/05/17/arizona-coyotes-tempe-arena-vote/


Houston and Salt Lake City are the favorites, according to numerous sources. Quebec is a long shot, at best.

[rrskylar]

Houston and Salt Lake City are the favorites, according to numerous sources. Quebec is a long shot, at best.

Don’t know how SLC can support both the NBA and NHL with the city being about the size of Calgary and Edmonton!

[BlackDog204]

Don’t know how SLC can support both the NBA and NHL with the city being about the size of Calgary and Edmonton!

Mormons like hockey.

[thurmas]

Salt Lake is the Delta airlines hub so good corporate base there and easy for player travel

[trebor204]

So let's say the Coyotes move to Atlanta. Jets 1.0/Coyotes 1.0 wind up being Atlanta 3.0, while Atlanta 2.0 became Jets 2.0 and Atlanta 1.0 became Calgary 1.0. Question: Who do Atlanta 3.0 become? Explain and show your work.


Move the Arizona Coyotes back to Winnipeg, and have the (Current) Winnipeg Jets go back to Atlanta. :)


However I believe the current are a better team than the Coyotes.

[thurmas]

Move the Arizona Coyotes back to Winnipeg, and have the (Current) Winnipeg Jets go back to Atlanta. :)


However I believe the current are a better team than the Coyotes.

if that happens where do they retire blake wheelers number in the rafters? parts unknown like the ultimate warrior?

[CoryB]

if that happens where do they retire blake wheelers number in the rafters? parts unknown like the ultimate warrior?

No, the clear choice is for Wheeler's number to be retired by the Wild in Minneapolis.

--

Following the Tempe vote the Coyotes have confirmed they will have Mullets again in 2023-2024 and continue to look for a permanent home in the greater Phoenix area.

[BlackDog204]

No, the clear choice is for Wheeler's number to be retired by the Wild in Minneapolis.

--

Following the Tempe vote the Coyotes have confirmed they will have Mullets again in 2023-2024 and continue to look for a permanent home in the greater Phoenix area.

I would laugh so hard, if the Coyotes fail to sellout the Mullet arena next year.

[CoryB]

I have seen the Coyotes in Glendale and not when Winnipeg is in town. Honestly with the possibility of being in Phoenix in the 2023-2024 season has me curious what the fan experience is like at Mullet. As I have touched on in previous posts I think some of those sunbelt teams would actually benefit from slightly smaller facilities by design. Obviously Mullet isn't quite the right fit for a pro team but there are arguments to be made about how CLC has compromises of the fan experience side that don't make it the most suitable either.

A full Mullet with truly passionate fans is likely a much better experience than just over double that (about 2/3 capacity) in Glendale with lots of less passionate people there.

[esquire]

A full Mullet with truly passionate fans is likely a much better experience than just over double that (about 2/3 capacity) in Glendale with lots of less passionate people there.

To draw a Winnipeg analogy, an ICE game at a full Wayne Fleming Arena with 1,800 fans delivers much better atmosphere in the stands than a Moose game with double the number of fans at CLC.

And unlike Wayne Fleming, Mullet probably offers the full array of fan amenities like food & beverage, proper comfortable seating, a club area, etc.

[thurmas]

To draw a Winnipeg analogy, an ICE game at a full Wayne Fleming Arena with 1,800 fans delivers much better atmosphere in the stands than a Moose game with double the number of fans at CLC.

And unlike Wayne Fleming, Mullet probably offers the full array of fan amenities like food & beverage, proper comfortable seating, a club area, etc.
Sounds like a spicy mullet!

[esquire]

I guess while the fan experience in a place like Phoenix is probably going to be better in a smaller building, the question is how do you make enough money to compete in a small building like that?

[BlackDog204]

Honestly with the possibility of being in Phoenix in the 2023-2024 season has me curious what the fan experience is like at Mullet. As I have touched on in previous posts I think some of those sunbelt teams would actually benefit from slightly smaller facilities by design.

One can say the same thing about Ottawa, Winnipeg, Chicago, Philadelphia, and Buffalo right now. Since the lockout, sunbelt teams like Tampa, LA, Dallas, Vegas, Nashville, and Carolina are averaging 95%+ capacity. Only Anaheim and San Jose are struggling somewhat, and that is only since they are both horrible.

The idea that southern US teams draw far less fans than some traditional markets to games, is an old-school Canadian fan myth.

[BlackDog204]

I guess while the fan experience in a place like Phoenix is probably going to be better in a smaller building, the question is how do you make enough money to compete in a small building like that?

They can't make money in such a small building.

[rrskylar]

I guess while the fan experience in a place like Phoenix is probably going to be better in a smaller building, the question is how do you make enough money to compete in a small building like that?

Coyotes only sold out the home opener in the tiny rink, when you can only draw 4600 to a 4800 seat rink, give it up already!

[BlackDog204]

Coyotes only sold out the home opener in the tiny rink, when you can only draw 4600 to a 4800 seat rink, give it up already!

They sold out every game. Capacity was 4,600.

[pegcityboy]

On “ paper “ they sold out every game but even had deals on tickets etc in a 4600 seat Mullet Arena so once again revenues were less than a 4600 seat Arena should create . It’s been like that in Phoenix since about year 3 there revenues don’t add up to attendance figures for a NHL team .

[BlackDog204]

On “ paper “ they sold out every game but even had deals on tickets etc in a 4600 seat Mullet Arena so once again revenues were less than a 4600 seat Arena should create . It’s been like that in Phoenix since about year 3 there revenues don’t add up to attendance figures for a NHL team .

That has happened in nearly every arena in the NHL, including Winnipeg.

[BlackDog204]

Looks like the long, drawn out saga of the Arizona Coyotes may be finally coming to an end. An ownership group from Salt Lake City, Utah is interested in purchasing the struggling franchise, and moving them to Utah.

Considering that Salt Lake is planning on building a new 18,000 seat arena, to lure the 2030 Olympics to the area, will give the group most likely unlimited amount of public funds.

This is an extremely credible lead, and new arena construction could happen in 2024, with the relocated Coyotes playing out of the 12,000 seat Maverik Center (which was build for Ice Hockey during the 2002 Winter Olympics), or the Viviant Arena (where the NBA Utah Jazz play), until the new arena is completed.

[Biff]

Bettman just stated yesterday that they are committed to keeping the Coyotes in Phoenix.

[thurmas]

Looks like the long, drawn out saga of the Arizona Coyotes may be finally coming to an end. An ownership group from Salt Lake City, Utah is interested in purchasing the struggling franchise, and moving them to Utah.

Considering that Salt Lake is planning on building a new 18,000 seat arena, to lure the 2030 Olympics to the area, will give the group most likely unlimited amount of public funds.

This is an extremely credible lead, and new arena construction could happen in 2024, with the relocated Coyotes playing out of the 12,000 seat Maverik Center (which was build for Ice Hockey during the 2002 Winter Olympics), or the Viviant Arena (where the NBA Utah Jazz play), until the new arena is completed.

Where are you hearing this?

[Danny D Oh]

Relocating to Salt Lake City would be a massive failure for the league. That's a tiny market. Going from a top 10 television market to one that is barely top 30 behind places like Houston, Cleveland, Orlando, Portland, Baltimore, Austin-San Antonio.

[thurmas]

Market size doesn't mean as much for hockey as its such a niche sport in the states. Places like Milwaukee that are small Market but have many more fans who attend NCAA hockey would watch on TV and attend games would be far more beneficial than a Market of 4.5 million in Phoenix with zero people watching or attending.

[Danny D Oh]

Market size doesn't mean as much for hockey as its such a niche sport in the states. Places like Milwaukee that are small Market but have many more fans who attend NCAA hockey would watch on TV and attend games would be far more beneficial than a Market of 4.5 million in Phoenix with zero people watching or attending.

Absolutely. But we're not talking about a hockey market in Salt Lake City. It's a step back from the Valley. They would be better off in many different markets that are both larger and/or more engaged with the sport. The biggest hit will be on local TV deals and the national one as well. That's why they chase markets.

[thurmas]

Salt Lake actually has winters, supports their echl team well is a wealthy market and a natural rivalry with Denver. Would be far better than the joke we have in Arizona.

[Coldrsx]

Dear Winnipeg,

Please share your goalie with us.

Love,

The Oilers.

[OTA in Winnipeg]

^ :tup:

[BlackDog204]

Bettman just stated yesterday that they are committed to keeping the Coyotes in Phoenix.

Bettman said "until 2024"

[BlackDog204]

Relocating to Salt Lake City would be a massive failure for the league. That's a tiny market. Going from a top 10 television market to one that is barely top 30 behind places like Houston, Cleveland, Orlando, Portland, Baltimore, Austin-San Antonio.


How is it tiny? It's the size of Vegas.

Under those goalposts, the NHL should rid itself of Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary, Buffalo, and Ottawa too.

[CoryB]

In terms of sports someone could watch in Phoenix they have NFL, NBA, WNBA, MLB + the cactus spring league, arena football, etc. On top of that they have AAA college teams in many of those same sports.

If you actually get on the ground in Phoenix and ask locals about what pro level sports are in town they are going to run through a fairly long list before they even mention NHL and that is even if they remember it is there.

Add in that you don't every have kids putting on skates and playing some hockey in someone's backyard or on a pond.

That right there is the market problem in Phoenix. Anyone playing hockey in Phoenix is going to need to pay for ice time somewhere every time they put on skates. It quickly becomes something only the rich have access to making it a challenge for the pro time to have the same sort of grassroots connections the Canadian teams have.

The purpose of being in a top market for the NHL was all about tv rights. It is time the league acknowledges the tv rights market is fading away from all sports and they shift towards in house operated streaming services. With that in mind the importance of markets like Phoenix and Atlanta melt away fairly quickly and a city truly invested in the sport like a Salt Lake City becomes a lot more appealing.

[esquire]

Salt Lake City is an odd choice because it's a somewhat smaller market, kind of like Raleigh-Durham, NC or Columbus, OH. But in Raleigh and Columbus, the NHL is the only major pro team in town... apart from the Hurricanes and Blue Jackets, it's just college sports.

While in Salt Lake City, there is already a NBA team in town. So it's already a smaller market team whose attention and wallets are already fixed somewhere else.

I know I've said it before, but I don't get why San Diego never comes up in these discussions. Huge city, 3.3 million which is almost triple SLC, but only one major league sports team, the very well supported Padres. No NBA competition. A good track record of supporting AHL hockey. Obviously they need a new arena but so does SLC, Phoenix and probably a good number of contending cities.

[rrskylar]

In terms of sports someone could watch in Phoenix they have NFL, NBA, WNBA, MLB + the cactus spring league, arena football, etc. On top of that they have AAA college teams in many of those same sports.

If you actually get on the ground in Phoenix and ask locals about what pro level sports are in town they are going to run through a fairly long list before they even mention NHL and that is even if they remember it is there.

Add in that you don't every have kids putting on skates and playing some hockey in someone's backyard or on a pond.

That right there is the market problem in Phoenix. Anyone playing hockey in Phoenix is going to need to pay for ice time somewhere every time they put on skates. It quickly becomes something only the rich have access to making it a challenge for the pro time to have the same sort of grassroots connections the Canadian teams have.

The purpose of being in a top market for the NHL was all about tv rights. It is time the league acknowledges the tv rights market is fading away from all sports and they shift towards in house operated streaming services. With that in mind the importance of markets like Phoenix and Atlanta melt away fairly quickly and a city truly invested in the sport like a Salt Lake City becomes a lot more appealing.

Bolded: Isn't that what it already is in Canada, organized hockey here is no longer a middle class sport, and why more kids are playing basketball and soccer.

The percentage of Canadians playing in the NHL shrinks every year because less can afford the sport and more can in the US where there is a much larger upper middle class and beyond who can afford to have their kids play!

[Highwayman]

Bolded: Isn't that what it already is in Canada, organized hockey here is no longer a middle class sport, and why more kids are playing basketball and soccer.

The percentage of Canadians playing in the NHL shrinks every year because less can afford the sport and more can in the US where there is a much larger upper middle class and beyond who can afford to have their kids play!

Then why are the two teams in the cup both loaded with Canadian players. Kids from outside TO and Vancouver play hockey. It's more to do with ethnicity then money. Hockey has always been more expensive then other sports.

[roccerfeller]

Salt Lake City is an odd choice because it's a somewhat smaller market, kind of like Raleigh-Durham, NC or Columbus, OH. But in Raleigh and Columbus, the NHL is the only major pro team in town... apart from the Hurricanes and Blue Jackets, it's just college sports.

While in Salt Lake City, there is already a NBA team in town. So it's already a smaller market team whose attention and wallets are already fixed somewhere else.

I know I've said it before, but I don't get why San Diego never comes up in these discussions. Huge city, 3.3 million which is almost triple SLC, but only one major league sports team, the very well supported Padres. No NBA competition. A good track record of supporting AHL hockey. Obviously they need a new arena but so does SLC, Phoenix and probably a good number of contending cities.

Who is the owner interested in owning a team in San Diego?
Wheres the NHL building?

[blueandgoldguy]

Salt Lake City is an odd choice because it's a somewhat smaller market, kind of like Raleigh-Durham, NC or Columbus, OH. But in Raleigh and Columbus, the NHL is the only major pro team in town... apart from the Hurricanes and Blue Jackets, it's just college sports.

While in Salt Lake City, there is already a NBA team in town. So it's already a smaller market team whose attention and wallets are already fixed somewhere else.

I know I've said it before, but I don't get why San Diego never comes up in these discussions. Huge city, 3.3 million which is almost triple SLC, but only one major league sports team, the very well supported Padres. No NBA competition. A good track record of supporting AHL hockey. Obviously they need a new arena but so does SLC, Phoenix and probably a good number of contending cities.

Exactly this. Getting corporations and individuals to shell out money for tickets and sponsorships will be extremely difficult in a market that features an established NBA team with a schedule that basically mirrors the NHL. This in a market with a metro population of 1.3 million - smaller than Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa and not much larger than Winnipeg but with the added competition of a big-4 pro team that those markets do not have to deal with.

Quebec would be my first choice but almost certainly won't happen for a number of reasons. Houston would be the logical choice, but the owner of the Houston Rockets does not want to pay the NHL's asking price for a franchise.

[esquire]

Exactly this. Getting corporations and individuals to shell out money for tickets and sponsorships will be extremely difficult in a market that features an established NBA team with a schedule that basically mirrors the NHL. This in a market with a metro population of 1.3 million - smaller than Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa and not much larger than Winnipeg but with the added competition of a big-4 pro team that those markets do not have to deal with.

It should be noted that SLC also has a Major League Soccer franchise. Not on the same level as the American "big four" sports leagues, but still a pretty significant presence. So for a city of that size, it's a crowded sports market already, let alone adding a NHL team to the mix.

Who is the owner interested in owning a team in San Diego?
Wheres the NHL building?

1. California has 178 billionaires. I'm sure one of them would step up.
2. Same place that Salt Lake City's arena is... on paper.

[thurmas]

Tons of rumors floating Helly will be traded in the media past 48 hours. Jets refuse to go in rebuild mode though tgey continue to want to be a bubble playoff team.

[esquire]

Tons of rumors floating Helly will be traded in the media past 48 hours. Jets refuse to go in rebuild mode though tgey continue to want to be a bubble playoff team.

Worst possible outcome IMO. This just means disappointment every year for the foreseeable future. What's the difference if you finish 9th in the conference or 16th... you're out of the playoffs either way. At least if you finish 16th you can get something major to show for it.

It's like the Jets are just clinging to the memories of 2018, refusing to accept reality.

[thurmas]

Personally my feeling is Wheeler will likely be bought out as he is too big an albatross around Bowness neck. PLD will be traded to a east coast team. Scheif likely stays as he is one dimensional but its hard to find players who want to play here long term and Jets always very loyal to long term guys. Now for Helly we need a goalie in return. This kinda feels like the Jets when they traded Hawerchuk for Housley in 1990 they aren't any better or worse just different.

[wags_in_the_peg]

trade when they are at the peak - get a huge return, upgrade defence

[thurmas]

PLD has officially asked for a trade

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/sports/nhl/pierre-luc-dubois-wants-trade-from-jets-won-t-re-sign-in-off-season/ar-AA1cgheV?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=723ef6b5b6604e63a550c6c56bf4b9d0&ei=9

Reports indicate that Dubois’ agent, Pat Brisson, has informed the Jets that his client is not inclined to sign any contract extension, including a one-year bridge deal, and would prefer to explore a trade to another team.

[thurmas]

it seems the wheels really fell off this team when they lost Buff and Bryan Little as its very apparent they were the guys who were able to steer the dressing room in the right direction without them it crumbled away.

[esquire]

https://media0.giphy.com/media/1hMhlrWWfXU77iYnBB/200.webp?cid=ecf05e472dnbcu0juyxj4tif5ia0bzpl6pg11i5wvexe5cvp&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200.webp&ct=g

The train wreck has officially begun.

Gotta give Chevy credit, that team he built in 2018 was loaded for bear. It's incredible to see how little it managed to achieve before coming apart at the seams, though.

Whether it's a rebuild or a retool, the next several seasons are going to be painful.

[thurmas]

Jets have no bargaining power now with PLD they really should have shipped him off last summer. As Elaine on Seinfeld said now they have no hand.

[esquire]

^ Yup. The Jets are like a spouse in a failed marriage who just refuses to face facts and move on. "Maybe if I buy Pierre Luc some more of the flowers he likes, he'll come around..."

[trueviking]

PLD is coming off the best year of his career and he finished 86th in league scoring....he's hardly an irreplaceable player....some team will pony up for him....I don't believe montreal is his only possible landing....i do agree that they should have traded him before the last deadline, but he still has value.

[esquire]

Legit number one centres don't grow on trees... Losing him for nothing, or next to nothing is going to be a body blow to a team that's already reeling.

[trueviking]

He's been in the NHL for 7 years with an average of just over 50 points per 82 games....that's not a top line centre.

This was his best season ever and he was the 36th top scoring centre in the NHL.....He's also lousy on faceoffs.

Why would they lose him for nothing or next to nothing? He's got a full year of control left. There are lots of teams that will pay for that.
Chevy turned Andrew Copp as a one-month rental into Brad Lambert, Morgan Barron, and second-round selection Elias Salomonsson.


Also...how are they reeling?...they've got some expiring contracts, but they all have value. The Leafs do too....are they considered reeling?