Winnipeg Jets

[EdwardTH]

Totally hypothetical discussion point:

Winnipeg has a notoriously hard time attracting NHL free agents. We all know this. The state of our downtown wasn't helping in that regard, and it's going to get a lot worse for at least a few years following the pandemic given all of the store and restaurant closures that have already happened and will continue to happen in 2021.

When the time eventually comes to build a new rink, does TNSE look to build in suburbia? Or even in a place near downtown but not in it, like Polo Park? Does playing somewhere that feels clean, polished and sanitized help you attract players? Or is TNSE just too invested in downtown through its sister companies to take that approach?

So when it's time to build a new rink in... what, 2035? Are they going to leave the downtown where they've already invested hundreds of millions in property development, because a handful of restaurants closed back in 2020/2021? Somehow I don't think so.

^ To play devil's advocate, one could also successfully build a profitable suburban development around an arena...
Yes that's why the rinks in Glendale and Kanata are considered such massive successes.... Whenever they try to manufacture an "entertainment district" from scratch out in the burbs like that it tends not to work very well, I'd have to think that would be even more true in Winnipeg where we are not exactly a tourism hub or development hot spot. Much better to build in a developed area where you mutually benefit from hotels, businesses and attractions already in the area.

That development in Glendale looks pretty prosperous to me even if the team isn't due to distance from their fanbase (assuming that there is one). I would have a hard time believing that Westgate as a whole isn't profitable even if it hasn't lived up to 100% of the expectations at the outset.

And hey, at least that arena has led to some spinoff retail, which is more than you can say for Bell MTS Place.

Yes, as far as retail goes downtown is dead unfortunately. But it's hard not to think BellMts Place was the catalyst for most of what's happened down there since the Jets came back:
- 5 towers at TNS
- Alt hotel / Glasshouse
- MET theatre rehabilitation
- Portage Place - I can't see the Starlight renovation even being a possibility without Bell MTS Place
- New restaurants in/near the SHED: Merchant Kitchen, Brown's, Tipsy Cow, MET; Hargrave Market; Shark Club; The Pint/Local

Would you really trade all that for a hotel and an Original Joe's at some greenfield development out by the perimeter?

[bomberjet]

Taxes equal out to millions of dollars potentially. How could they not factor in taxes?

On a similar note, the 2021 tax year will be interesting for American players who are in the Canadian divisor. Players like Matthews who live in the US, but work in Canada have a tax scheme set-up to minimize how much they pay. They have to be in the US for something like 6 months of the year. Now being stuck in Canada for like half the year, and the 2021-2022 season in the fall will put them beyond that threshold.

Regarding the arena. It'll be something like 2050-2060 when they build a new rink. There's no reason the be building something new in the next 10-15 years. The rinks only 15-20 years old and has undergone 10's of millions in reno's just in the past couple years.

[Danny D Oh]

Taxes equal out to millions of dollars potentially. How could they not factor in taxes?

On a similar note, the 2021 tax year will be interesting for American players who are in the Canadian divisor. Players like Matthews who live in the US, but work in Canada have a tax scheme set-up to minimize how much they pay. They have to be in the US for something like 6 months of the year. Now being stuck in Canada for like half the year, and the 2021-2022 season in the fall will put them beyond that threshold.

Regarding the arena. It'll be something like 2050-2060 when they build a new rink. There's no reason the be building something new in the next 10-15 years. The rinks only 15-20 years old and has undergone 10's of millions in reno's just in the past couple years.

Listen to the Allan Walsh episode on Spittin Chiclets if you're interested in the taxes. In the US more income is taxable at all levels and there are a couple ways for athletes in Canada to defer taxes based on their residence then recoup them at the end of their career by spending as little as six months out of the country. Also tons of ways to invest that creates tax credits and shelters capital.

The way taxes would affect someone making say $80,000 are almost non-existant to people making millions.

[JHikka]

A few years ago I heard an interview with prominent agent Don Meehan. Basically this same thing. Said taxes are a non issue, that if players want them to sharpen their pencils and see where they would make the absolute most, they can, but its very rare for players to base their decision on this. They base their decisions on other things than the absolute most money they can make.

Yes and no. Signing bonuses are one way to get around things like income taxes over a fiscal annum. When Tavares signed with Toronto, IIRC, his signing bonus was paid out in NY before he arrived in ON, thereby being taxed less up front. You can see a lot of contracts going this way to avoid territorial taxation if and when it arises.

Taxes aside, Winnipeg absolutely loses out on a lot of the other factors to be considered when signing. It's cold and dark for most of the season and it's a very small market. Hockey players like everyone else have other things to consider like living arrangements, family arrangements, etc. Winnipeg simply has fewer options for living and family than places like Phoenix, Miami, Vegas, etc. Sometimes players' wives have occupations that have to be met in specific markets, or have children with needs that can only be met in specific markets, or whatever else. Winnipeg's a tremendously difficult market to make work for most players which is why it's usually at the top of the no-trade list-list with other Canadian markets, especially Ottawa and Montreal, but also Edmonton in the pre-McDavid days.

With the league's playerbase becoming more American and less Canadian with each passing season it'll be more difficult for Canadian teams to attract talent which would have been homegrown or local ten or twenty years ago. Americans, similar to Canadians, would love nothing more than to stay closer to home or somewhere they're more familiar with if things can work out that way.

For the sake of this thread, what Winnipeg can excel at is building state-of-the-art facilities to entice players to play in Winnipeg. For years the Islanders had tremendous difficulty signing and acquiring free agents because Nassau Coliseum hadn't be reasonably updated since the 80s. Edmonton is an example of what a team can do to become competitive on the free agent and trade market.

Winnipeg can only do so much and I respect Chevy for the effort he's put in. Players don't want to sign in Winnipeg and many have the market on a no-trade list. His hands are very tied.

[bomberjet]

Allan Walsh.. What a dolt. He blocked me on Twitter cause he's super sensitive or something.

To me, if you're making say $10 million gross, and taxes bring that down to $5 million. But I could play somewhere else and that is bumped to $6 or $6.5 million (because those are the numbers we're talking about) why would you not factor that into your decision? Run that over 7 years and that's a lot of money. Then you can still do all the investing, tax avoidance, whatever you want.

For all the negotiating that goes on over a couple hundred thousand at contract time, they don't event think about taxes? Taxes man, we talking about taxes.

[GreyGarden]

I’m sure taxes are part of the equation.

But in multiple polls Winnipeg has been ranked as the worst city for players to play in and visit. There’s a lot that goes into those opinions. I personally think Winnipeg is on the right track, and there’s still core residential growth and development taking place and as long as that’s happening I think the city will be alright. But I can understand those polls and the opinions of young people with money to burn. In the winter, our downtown is very quiet, there’s no shopping, not a lot of vibrancy, and it’s pretty dirty (partly because we dump sand and dirt on all our streets and sidewalks). We’re a small, western prairie city (versus Quebec City which likely wouldn’t have this problem to the same extent) and so this will be a problem for us for a long time. Edmonton has had a PR problem among NHLers for ages.

[esquire]

For the sake of this thread, what Winnipeg can excel at is building state-of-the-art facilities to entice players to play in Winnipeg. For years the Islanders had tremendous difficulty signing and acquiring free agents because Nassau Coliseum hadn't be reasonably updated since the 80s. Edmonton is an example of what a team can do to become competitive on the free agent and trade market.


This is why I raised the hypothetical situation of a Bell MTS Place replacement being built one day out in suburbia. Let's face it, our post covid downtown is probably not going to be a pretty sight. Obviously the Jets would have to continue playing there for at least another 20 years if the team stays in Winnipeg. But if downtown still in rough shape at that point where a replacement building is on the table, then it might make more sense to build it someplace where you can make it look pretty and appealing to potential players.

[bomberjet]

I guess all I'm saying is, if these guys are not factoring taxes into their equations at all, they're dumb. Now sure, there's only so many teams the y can play on, etc.

Jacob Trouba for example. There a 1.4 million swing between Ottawa and Nashville.
https://www.capfriendly.com/income-tax-calculator/jacob-trouba

[cheswick]

I guess all I'm saying is, if these guys are not factoring taxes into their equations at all, they're dumb. Now sure, there's only so many teams the y can play on, etc.

Jacob Trouba for example. There a 1.4 million swing between Ottawa and Nashville.
https://www.capfriendly.com/income-tax-calculator/jacob-trouba

Well that calculator is a simplification. For one thing it assume residence as jurisdiction where they play, where from what I've ascertained that's extremely uncommon for tax purposes. An American player would almost certainly find methods of being considered a resident of the US. Another point is this season is atypical in that the Canadian teams don't leave Canada at all. Also consider signing bonuses are a quirk of the US-Canada tax treaty and only taxed at 15% in Canada (of an American player). So an American resident with a huge signing bonus would be taxed at his lower residency rate for the bonus which could be the majority of his salary. Also as mentioned before RCA's are available in Canada to defer portions of salary to retirement years. It's far more complicated than an online calculator shows.

Yes there are plenty of reasons players may not choose Winnipeg, I doubt tax implications are anywhere near the top.

[P&M40BELOW]

For me the best option of a new arena would be to build on the site of Shaw Park and tie it into the whole rail side development including a new Westin hotel. It’s a black eye on this cities leadership that this site is still undeveloped. Shaw Park can be rebuilt on another site as a new facility as well.
As far a free agents go, at least the NHL isn’t like the NBA which is horrible for franchises attracting free agents. In the NHL there really is only a few select US cities that can attract free agents over others. The majority of teams are in the same boat and with a hard cap it prevents wealthy teams from just paying a luxury tax. If you have a winning tradition any city will attract free agents. Not a huge example but I recall that Kulikov was playing in Florida and specifically wanted to come to Winnipeg because, as he told his wife ‘they have a great team”.

[blueandgoldguy]

I doubt ownership waits until 2050-2060 to demand funding for a new arena. Heck, in 2060 the current arena would be 56 years old which is a few years older than the Winnipeg Arena when is was finally replace by BellMTS Place in 2004.

All the bargaining, posturing, arena proposals, haggling over financing and finally arena construction will be a decade long process. Assuming the team remains financially viable in Winnipeg over the next 10-12 years...

Early 2030s - BellMTS Place closing in on its 30 year anniversary. Chipman hints that the arena is near the end of its lifespan due to limits of BellMTS Place's small footprint that cannot be fully rectified with those annual subsidized renovations ie. inadequate number of club seats and club lounges, inadequate number of loges, loading area too small for increasingly complex concert setups.

mid to late 2030s - series of arena proposals for various locations, public haggling over financing (expect an Oilers-type deal for public subsidies although the burden would be split between the city and province as opposed to being financed solely by the city of Edmonton), vague threats of relocation.

early 2040s - deal between the team, province and city finally completed for a 16,500 seat (standing room 17,000+) 550,000 square foot $600 million arena at the site of the Goldeyes long abandoned Shaw Park.:D Construction expected to be completed in 2.5 years

As a point of comparison, back in 2008 Calgary's ownership said that plans for a new arena were only 5 - 8 years away. Ken King claimed there were designs for a new building but they were never released to the public. Finally in 2015, CSE released that disastrous proposal CalgaryNEXT - a sports complex that featured a new arena and football stadium. 2 years later, this proposal was voted down by council.

That same year, King said the Flames were no longer pursuing an arena - a vague threat to relocate to another city methinks. Following this, it appears disagreements were settled behind the scenes and the city and Flames' ownership agreed to a deal for a $550 Event Centre in 2019. Arena to be completed in 2024, assuming construction commences in 2021 as planned.

So there you go. 16 years from floating the idea of a new arena to the public to its final construction. I would not be surprised if Winnipeg follows a similar course.

[Danny D Oh]

Allan Walsh.. What a dolt. He blocked me on Twitter cause he's super sensitive or something.

To me, if you're making say $10 million gross, and taxes bring that down to $5 million. But I could play somewhere else and that is bumped to $6 or $6.5 million (because those are the numbers we're talking about) why would you not factor that into your decision? Run that over 7 years and that's a lot of money. Then you can still do all the investing, tax avoidance, whatever you want.

For all the negotiating that goes on over a couple hundred thousand at contract time, they don't event think about taxes? Taxes man, we talking about taxes.

They do think about it. That's the point. In the end there is very little difference between markets and Canada/Manitoba is actually quite favorable to people with money to invest and spend. There are some guys who played most of their career in Canada who empty 7 figure accounts tax free when they retire using RCA's that limit tax liability by deferring income that is invested. They can use RCA's to keep as much as 50% of their income from being taxed in Canada. It's like having a TFSA that wasn't even taxed when you earned that money. Zero state income tax in a few places is only a small piece of things but it gets all the soundbites.

[Danny D Oh]

I’m sure taxes are part of the equation.

But in multiple polls Winnipeg has been ranked as the worst city for players to play in and visit. There’s a lot that goes into those opinions. I personally think Winnipeg is on the right track, and there’s still core residential growth and development taking place and as long as that’s happening I think the city will be alright. But I can understand those polls and the opinions of young people with money to burn. In the winter, our downtown is very quiet, there’s no shopping, not a lot of vibrancy, and it’s pretty dirty (partly because we dump sand and dirt on all our streets and sidewalks). We’re a small, western prairie city (versus Quebec City which likely wouldn’t have this problem to the same extent) and so this will be a problem for us for a long time. Edmonton has had a PR problem among NHLers for ages.

Quebec City is like a foreign country to most North Americans. They'd be #1 on the no-trade list.

[P&M40BELOW]

The absolute best thing that has happened ( in 2 generations) economically and confidence wise to this city was a downtown arena and then the return of the Jets. If Winnipeg tripled in size we would still be a small market. Having this team is an absolute luxury that we can’t afford to take for granted. The smartest thing Winnipeg could do is in a dozen years from now fast track an new $1 billion dollar arena at the forks Don’t screw it up; there won’t be a repeat return option.

[Danny D Oh]

For me the best option of a new arena would be to build on the site of Shaw Park and tie it into the whole rail side development including a new Westin hotel. It’s a black eye on this cities leadership that this site is still undeveloped. Shaw Park can be rebuilt on another site as a new facility as well.
As far a free agents go, at least the NHL isn’t like the NBA which is horrible for franchises attracting free agents. In the NHL there really is only a few select US cities that can attract free agents over others. The majority of teams are in the same boat and with a hard cap it prevents wealthy teams from just paying a luxury tax. If you have a winning tradition any city will attract free agents. Not a huge example but I recall that Kulikov was playing in Florida and specifically wanted to come to Winnipeg because, as he told his wife ‘they have a great team”.

IMO Shaw Park won't have a tenant that requires a facility of that magnitude in short order (aka that ballpark is going to become a major thorn in the side of the COW). Minor league sports and especially unaffiliated minor league baseball is going to be a pandemic casualty. We will get a team in the WCBL, a college summer league, or that league might transition into a semi-pro format with many Canadian players if the supply of American college players coming north dries up.

[esquire]

So there you go. 16 years from floating the idea of a new arena to the public to its final construction. I would not be surprised if Winnipeg follows a similar course.

You'll know the push for a new rink is really on once TN's confederates in the media (aka sportswriters) start doing hatchet jobs on the existing building in an effort to persuade the public that Bell MTS Place is hopelessly inadequate and is in need of replacement. That seems to be part of the template of how this gets done.

[CoryB]

I honestly think we are very close to the right time to pitch a new NHL arena. Everyone knows MTS Centre was a lightly upgraded AHL arena that barely meet the NHL standards and is one of the smallest rinks in the league. Add in the "changes" that will be needed coming out of the pandemic and letting fans attend events again and there is the perfect storm to start pitching a new facility.

[esquire]

I honestly think we are very close to the right time to pitch a new NHL arena. Everyone knows MTS Centre was a lightly upgraded AHL arena that barely meet the NHL standards and is one of the smallest rinks in the league. Add in the "changes" that will be needed coming out of the pandemic and letting fans attend events again and there is the perfect storm to start pitching a new facility.

It will be interesting to see how this is handled over the next few years. On some level it feels like the regular, non-premium seating capacity is about right... it doesn't feel as though the Jets have outgrown it in any meaningful way. Even though the team has been pretty good these past few seasons, demand has softened to the point where it is really no trouble at all to get tickets anymore, as compared to 2012 when getting any kind of ticket basically meant asking someone for a favour if you weren't a season ticket holder. There were even empty seats at a few games last season. If you bumped up "normal" seating capacity from whatever it is now, 13,000 or so, to 16,000, I suspect there would be a lot more empty seats unless the Jets were on a real tear.

The big question is whether there is a need for more premium seating, lounges and all of that. If they doubled the number of skyboxes and added some big club seating areas would they actually sell? I'm sure TNSE knows the answer to that. Personally I'd doubt it, though.

The economy grew so much between the 60s and 90s that I can understand why so many of the old, basic arenas around the league were junked in favour of ones that catered to a more well heeled clientele. But have things changed that much since 2004? Maybe a little, but I'm not sure if it has reached the point where it would justify the cost of a new building. At least not if TNSE has to pay for it ;)

[JHikka]

This is why I raised the hypothetical situation of a Bell MTS Place replacement being built one day out in suburbia.

It's an awful idea if i'm being honest with you. Take all of the NHL teams with awful attendance generation and what do they have in common?

Quebec City is like a foreign country to most North Americans. They'd be #1 on the no-trade list.
I often say that Quebec City would be like Winnipeg but worse for trades and free agents because everyone speaks a language that isn't English. It's bad enough for foreign players playing in the Quebec League - professionals simply would not tolerate it. Many would probably enjoy the idea of a QC team built with strictly francophones but they would be perennial losers.

[esquire]

For what it's worth I prefer the downtown arena location and I think most fans appreciate its convenience. I'm looking at this in the context of the very hard hit that Covid has taken on downtown Winnipeg, which was already in a kind of precarious state even before all of this. If downtown for whatever reason doesn't recover in the years ahead, it's not impossible to imagine a scenario where the team ownership goes looking elsewhere...

[cheswick]

For what it's worth I prefer the downtown arena location and I think most fans appreciate its convenience. I'm looking at this in the context of the very hard hit that Covid has taken on downtown Winnipeg, which was already in a kind of precarious state even before all of this. If downtown for whatever reason doesn't recover in the years ahead, it's not impossible to imagine a scenario where the team ownership goes looking elsewhere...

After pouring hundreds of millions into true north square?

[CoryB]

After pouring hundreds of millions into true north square?

NHL hockey operations have nothing directly to do with the two downtown developments (CentrePoint and True North Squre).

Chipman was involved in development both in downtown and elsewhere before the Jets and will likely stay in that business after the Jets move out of downtown. Saying that the team absolutely is staying where Chipman owned developments are makes the same level of sense as saying they are building a new arena next to the Chipman owned auto mall and IcePlex on the the west side of town.

[esquire]

The NHL is just the sizzle that helped to sell the True North Square steak. It's not like one requires the other to succeed.

Personally I think the likeliest spot for a new arena will be Shaw Park. In about 20-25 years that ballpark will be getting pretty old and in need of costly upgrades, and I doubt there will be an occupant to justify those kinds of expenses. So we'll see the city decide to level the ballpark and put up a new showpiece of an arena.

[blueandgoldguy]

The absolute best thing that has happened ( in 2 generations) economically and confidence wise to this city was a downtown arena and then the return of the Jets. If Winnipeg tripled in size we would still be a small market. Having this team is an absolute luxury that we can’t afford to take for granted. The smartest thing Winnipeg could do is in a dozen years from now fast track an new $1 billion dollar arena at the forks Don’t screw it up; there won’t be a repeat return option.

I don't know. I noticed an increased swagger in Winnipeggers' walk when a new IKEA was announced for the city back in 2008.;)

On a more serious note, I am almost a 100% certain that the location, financing and construction of the new arena will not be "fast-tracked" as you put it. As we have seen here (ie IGF Field) and elsewhere (Edmonton, Calgary, potentially Ottawa, potentially Halifax with new stadium), building a heavily subsidized pro sports facility is a long drawn-out process. It certainly wouldn't be wise to just throw public money at True North. Every dollar allocated should be scrutinized. Winnipeg isn't Atlanta.

And a billion dollars?!? Where on earth are you getting that number from!? I realize inflation will play a role, but Winnipeg will not be building a grandiose arena like the $800+ million Little Caesars Palace with a jacket of businesses surrounding the exterior. Nor will it be as grand or large as the Rogers Place ($600 million, over 1 million square feet including the Winter Garden). Calgary will be building an arena with a similar capacity as Rogers Place (18,500) for $550 million, 7 years after its completion.

Winnipeg's hypothetical new arena will not need the number of seats or square footage of the above arenas. 550,000 - 600,000 square feet (about 100,000 - 150,000 more square footage than the current arena with 16,500 permanent seats and 500 or so standing room seats. A smaller arena should keep expenses under control to a degree.

You'll know the push for a new rink is really on once TN's confederates in the media (aka sportswriters) start doing hatchet jobs on the existing building in an effort to persuade the public that Bell MTS Place is hopelessly inadequate and is in need of replacement. That seems to be part of the template of how this gets done.

That's true. Also criticizing city officials for failing to play ball with pro sports owner and touting the endless economic benefits of a pro team for a city.

Another indication that TNSE will push for a new arena will be when the commissioner (Bettman's heir in all likelihood) states that the current facility no longer meets the needs of the current NHL. Part of Bettman's job is to take hear for the owners.

I honestly think we are very close to the right time to pitch a new NHL arena. Everyone knows MTS Centre was a lightly upgraded AHL arena that barely meet the NHL standards and is one of the smallest rinks in the league. Add in the "changes" that will be needed coming out of the pandemic and letting fans attend events again and there is the perfect storm to start pitching a new facility.

I doubt we will see a pitch for an arena anytime soon. Likely a decade or more. Spacing in concourses will be an issue in all the arenas with regards to COVID, not just BellMTS Centre. You cannot adequately space people 6 feet apart between periods/before games even in a concourse 50-100% larger than our arena. By the 2022-23 season, most, if not all, spacing concerns related to COVID will be a thing of the past.

It will be interesting to see how this is handled over the next few years. On some level it feels like the regular, non-premium seating capacity is about right... it doesn't feel as though the Jets have outgrown it in any meaningful way. Even though the team has been pretty good these past few seasons, demand has softened to the point where it is really no trouble at all to get tickets anymore, as compared to 2012 when getting any kind of ticket basically meant asking someone for a favour if you weren't a season ticket holder. There were even empty seats at a few games last season. If you bumped up "normal" seating capacity from whatever it is now, 13,000 or so, to 16,000, I suspect there would be a lot more empty seats unless the Jets were on a real tear.

The big question is whether there is a need for more premium seating, lounges and all of that. If they doubled the number of skyboxes and added some big club seating areas would they actually sell? I'm sure TNSE knows the answer to that. Personally I'd doubt it, though.

The economy grew so much between the 60s and 90s that I can understand why so many of the old, basic arenas around the league were junked in favour of ones that catered to a more well heeled clientele. But have things changed that much since 2004? Maybe a little, but I'm not sure if it has reached the point where it would justify the cost of a new building. At least not if TNSE has to pay for it ;)

I agree. Normal seating capacity is more than adequate.

I was just listening to Hustler on 1290 and he was discussing how NHL ticket price increases have far exceeded the rate of inflation for a considerable period of time. There would come a time where the public would refuse or be financially unable to pay these ever increasing rates. He said it appeared that point was reached shortly after the Jets run in the playoffs in 2018. That sounds about right.

This seems to be happening around the league and even in Canada. Oilers ticket prices were experiencing some significant bumps even prior to the move to the new arena and with all those premium seating options there they saw another significant bump. Last year saw several games with 1000 - 2000 empty seats. This in one of the best hockey markets on the planet with two of the best players in the world. Having $150 upper deck seats certainly doesn't help.

As for premium seating options at this hypothetical new arena, I think the Jets would have fewer suites than the current arena given I hear some companies actually split suites at this time. For reference, Edmonton actually reduced the number of suites when they moved to Rogers Place.

Doubling the number of club seats (2,000 instead of 1,000) and doubling the number of loges would be reasonable. Increasing the lower bowl from 8,000 to 9,000 seats which seems to be the league norm would also be ideal. I'm sure Chipman has his feelers out there and surveys of business clientele to determine the demands for the premium seating options in the future.

It's an awful idea if i'm being honest with you. Take all of the NHL teams with awful attendance generation and what do they have in common?


I often say that Quebec City would be like Winnipeg but worse for trades and free agents because everyone speaks a language that isn't English. It's bad enough for foreign players playing in the Quebec League - professionals simply would not tolerate it. Many would probably enjoy the idea of a QC team built with strictly francophones but they would be perennial losers.

Yes, I would give Winnipeg a slight advantage over Quebec City in terms of player retention and free agent signings given it is primarily a francophone-speaking populace. Winnipeg also has more corporate strength. Quebec City definitely has that "coolness factor" that Winnipeg can't touch with Old Quebec which has a distinct European vibe to it. That might appeal to a few players, although probably not many given we are talking about 20 year old millionaires.

[blueandgoldguy]

The NHL is just the sizzle that helped to sell the True North Square steak. It's not like one requires the other to succeed.

Personally I think the likeliest spot for a new arena will be Shaw Park. In about 20-25 years that ballpark will be getting pretty old and in need of costly upgrades, and I doubt there will be an occupant to justify those kinds of expenses. So we'll see the city decide to level the ballpark and put up a new showpiece of an arena.

It seems like the most logical spot at this time. Other choices would be Point Douglas although there are some limitations with that site, and the Research Council of Canada if it closes or is closed?(thought somebody here said it no longer operating at full capacity?).

If nothing else is built at the old Stadium site near Polo Park, that might be a darkhorse candidate as well. Only a few miles from downtown and reasonably centrally located. So far all that has been constructed there are the old target building which has been converted to 24-7 call centre, Winners and Homesense, and the PF Changs. I would think the site will be filled with more businesses in the future so that's likely a non-starter.

[bomberjet]

Point Douglas didn't want a stadium. Not sure an arena is a good fit there.

Didn't the NRC get shutdown by Harper and they're just maintaining the buildings?

Shaw Park site actually seems like a good fit.

[roccerfeller]

The NHL is just the sizzle that helped to sell the True North Square steak. It's not like one requires the other to succeed.

Personally I think the likeliest spot for a new arena will be Shaw Park. In about 20-25 years that ballpark will be getting pretty old and in need of costly upgrades, and I doubt there will be an occupant to justify those kinds of expenses. So we'll see the city decide to level the ballpark and put up a new showpiece of an arena.

I could see that. Will fit nicely in post card shots!

[esquire]

I could see that. Will fit nicely in post card shots!

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Sort of a marquee spot convenient to downtown without necessarily being right in the middle of downtown. And one that lends itself to beautiful skyline views!

To bomberjet's point, during the Save the Jets campaign of 1995, that's where the local interests who wanted to keep the team in town were looking to build a new arena. They cleared the land for a new building... when that fell through, it became the home of the baseball park instead.

[buzzg]

I don't think Shaw Park would work at all, the land is barely bigger than the current arena, and a new one would certainly be bigger – not just seating, but they will need much bigger concourses and common areas, that's the biggest issue now. Plus, access is terrible you only have a bigger street on one side. I don't think turning Waterfront into a major thoroughfare is a good plan, and I think the traffic from locating the stadium there would be awful for the Exchange and The Forks. I only see Shaw Park working if the rail line gets relocated...

The NRC land is certainly ripe for redevelopment, the building is like 10% occupied. It's a huge waste of space. I just don't think it's enough space and is too close to SFH and the school. While the buildings need a cosmetic upgrade, they're quite beautiful inside though so they could be repurposed.

IMO the two best options for the next arena would either be:

1) Directly north of (and integrated into) Portage Place (E-W), replacing the Promenade apartments and doing a cool integration with the Free Press building like Ford Field did in Detroit.

2) Across from the convention centre oriented east-west along the south side of York between Carlton and Donald. Would take up the current WCB parking lot, and tear down the Best Western and likely 120 Donald.

Both these options have great access and connections to the area. Connected to skywalk, lots of amenities and all the build up (hotels, restaurants, etc) tied to the current arena would still be in the same vicinity. Could also spur a needed future rethink of Broadway.

[esquire]

I did a map overlay of Rogers Place on Shaw Park, and yeah, it's tight... Rogers Place would basically fill in the entire space between the tracks, Waterfront and William Stephenson Way. But I wouldn't necessarily say it's too small... there would just have to be some road adjustments.

[pacman]

Would be interesting for someone smarter than me to see if there was any way of widening the rail line footprint in a way to accommodate "rapid transit" running right along side and attaching to a new arena at the Shaw Park location. I know people have been talking about rapid transit running through union station and having something of a hub around Westbrook and Portage. Would absolutely be big picture thinking to integrate those needs together not just for a future arena but imagine if the larger rapid transit network was focused there with an arena as an anchor. Any possible way that can happen without the default instant response that the railway wouldn't be interested so it will never happen? Is it physically possible?

[esquire]

To what buzzg was saying earlier, the CN line/Waterfront/William Stephenson triangle would pretty well have to be maxed out to build a large arena there. That said, I can't see why a BRT/LRT route running alongside the CN line couldn't work in terms of fit... if an arena were built there some day it would probably be a pretty good amenity when it comes to getting people to and from events.

The nice thing about an arena on that site is that any kind of spinoff development would likely go in the underdeveloped lands to the west along Westbrook. It would be nice to see that area finally get built up a little.

[bomberjet]

Would be interesting for someone smarter than me to see if there was any way of widening the rail line footprint in a way to accommodate "rapid transit" running right along side and attaching to a new arena at the Shaw Park location. I know people have been talking about rapid transit running through union station and having something of a hub around Westbrook and Portage. Would absolutely be big picture thinking to integrate those needs together not just for a future arena but imagine if the larger rapid transit network was focused there with an arena as an anchor. Any possible way that can happen without the default instant response that the railway wouldn't be interested so it will never happen? Is it physically possible?

The transitway was supposed to parallel the track all the way from union station through St. B to Kildonan Place area. There's room. Apparently CN didnt want to play nice somewhere so the City abandoned that option all together.

If there was an arena there, maybe things would be different. I did a measure in google earth. MTS centre is about 12,500m2. Shaw park site is about 30,000m2. So quite a bit larger. Rogers Place is a palace, but the overall site is about 32,000 m2. Same as shaw park.

[esquire]

^ Yeah, I used Rogers Place as the basis for comparison since it represents the high water mark for what we would likely build down the road... I can't imagine that Winnipeg's new arena would be any bigger than that although who knows where arena design trends will be in 20 years.

I can't seem to post images on imgur anymore so I can't share my highly elaborate map overlay. I wish this forum could host pictures...

[pacman]

The transitway was supposed to parallel the track all the way from union station through St. B to Kildonan Place area. There's room. Apparently CN didnt want to play nice somewhere so the City abandoned that option all together.

If there was an arena there, maybe things would be different. I did a measure in google earth. MTS centre is about 12,500m2. Shaw park site is about 30,000m2. So quite a bit larger. Rogers Place is a palace, but the overall site is about 32,000 m2. Same as shaw park.
There's no doubt that the shaw park site footprint is massive not only compared to MTS Centre, but also compared to virtually every other arena site in Canada and in most of North America with the exception of Rogers Place. Like you said, that's a palace and even so would still fit in the Shaw park site with a little rework of the roads. So even though people intuitively think the site is cramped, the reality is that it is more than big enough to put any arena we would dream to build here. So I think its safe to dismiss that argument out of hand.
Regarding the railway, unless there is a physical reason or regulatory situation that cannot be massaged why the rapid transit line couldn't be placed along it and integrate directly into a new arena, I think it could be a generational big boy project that would redefine the area. Beautiful tie-in to the Forks/railside development, anchor rapid transit and actually give people reasons to use it 200-250 nights a year, tie it into the underground concourse at Portage and Main and therefore link it to all the new downtown residential developments as well as parking for the suburbanites. Honestly can't think of a downside aside from the cost of doing it the right way and not cutting corners. Tell me I'm wrong.

[bomberjet]

The city is scared of big boy projects.

Transit is still, yes still, working through there transit planning. But like I've mentioned before and you mentioned, the area east of P&M is ripe for real, large scale TOD development. It's a sea of parking lots. Could transform that area of downtown. We're talking pie in the sky things here about an arena. But leaving that out, there is huge potential for that area.

The Cities current plans have the transit way high line through union station terminating somewhere in that area near Pioneer and Westbrook. I don't know if they've actually gotten that far in determining what it would look like.

And even though the City is planning on going through Point Douglas with there pseudo rapid transit stuff. It doesn't mean at some point in the future another separate transit line could extend along the railway to east Winnipeg. Things change.

[pacman]

The city is scared of big boy projects.

Transit is still, yes still, working through there transit planning. But like I've mentioned before and you mentioned, the area east of P&M is ripe for real, large scale TOD development. It's a sea of parking lots. Could transform that area of downtown. We're talking pie in the sky things here about an arena. But leaving that out, there is huge potential for that area.

The Cities current plans have the transit way high line through union station terminating somewhere in that area near Pioneer and Westbrook. I don't know if they've actually gotten that far in determining what it would look like.

And even though the City is planning on going through Point Douglas with there pseudo rapid transit stuff. It doesn't mean at some point in the future another separate transit line could extend along the railway to east Winnipeg. Things change.

I don't think the city is scared of big boy projects, they just lack the leadership. When Katz thought up and presented the ICE district, there were Debby Downers in Alberta downplaying it saying it was pie in the sky, unnecessary, other priorities, too ambitious for a city like Edmonton, but Katz pushed the right buttons, got enough decision makers on board, and pursued that district by putting his own money up (along with a shitload of public money) and doing it.

This big boy project done correctly will need public support but would only succeed with private people pushing it through in spite of Winnipeg's Debby Downers. Maybe I'm naive, but eventually if someone with deep pockets and enough influence backs something like this and manages to show the public the benefits that we're talking about it is not beyond Winnipeg's capabilities.

There is already a certain Baron who is the richest man in Canada involved with the Jets who is more than capable of continuing to be the behind the scenes pocketbook who can pull enough strings and have enough influence to get it done. In the end it doesn't matter if the City is scared of big boy projects as long as the leader isn't.

[Biff]

I hear what you are saying, but don't you think the SHED is pretty "big boy". Sure it is not one nice big package with a huge common area like in Edmonton, but don't you think the private money the Chipman's have already spent on bringing the area immediately adjacent to his hockey rink qualifies?

That is 7 new towers to downtown (Alt, Glasshouse, TNS 1 & 2, Sutton Place 1 & 2 and Wawanesa). The ICE District looks great with the towering Stantec and space ship arena but the SHED gave us 136 storey's of new towers. Pretty good for downtown I think.

[CoryB]

What people seem to be forget in new arena site speculation is the costs into those downtown developments will long be sunk costs in the past. Building a new arena near by to leverage those won't have the same return.

Everyone is also overlooking that Chipman is heavily invested in development near Portage Ave and the Perimeter and likely has a parcel of land set aside as a possible arena site.

One of the thing True North has done on phenomenal job on with MTS Centre is if you go to an event there there is a good chance you park in their lot, go for pre-game dinner/drinks at a place they own or in a building they own, and then the same post-game. True North makes a lot of money off the "value adds" to attending something at the current location.

If they say built a new arena at a different location downtown or replacing Shaw Park they are going to have a difficult time capturing those same value adds. If on the other hand they built in the middle of the Chipman controlled area on west Winnipeg odds are they could pull off a repeat. The add piece there is that part of town is somewhat underserviced for restaurants/lounges compared to similar areas. It also has higher end housing close by which would appeal to more established players and there is a "luxury apartment" building planned for almost next door to the Ice Plex which would likely appeal to younger NHL players and those in the AHL.

And well WestGate in Phoenix failed for a variety of reasons, the design of the site, other than the arena blocking the primary event venue (NFL stadium) it is a pretty well thought out pre/post event area. I cannot find the exact number of event days Bell MTS Place had in 2018 but it was fairly high, something like 2 out of 3 days they had something there. Sure Moose games and smaller events don't have the same impact but that type of induced demand could help prop up a WestGate style entertainment district.

[drew]

My hope is that they upgrade and renovate the current arena as necessary to get 100 years out of it. I think it occupies the sweet spot in both capacity and location in the City.

IMO, there is no reason this cannot happen.

Treat it like a wise man owns a car. Buy something modest, easy to maintain, and drive it till it's dead.

[pacman]

I hear what you are saying, but don't you think the SHED is pretty "big boy". Sure it is not one nice big package with a huge common area like in Edmonton, but don't you think the private money the Chipman's have already spent on bringing the area immediately adjacent to his hockey rink qualifies?

That is 7 new towers to downtown (Alt, Glasshouse, TNS 1 & 2, Sutton Place 1 & 2 and Wawanesa). The ICE District looks great with the towering Stantec and space ship arena but the SHED gave us 136 storey's of new towers. Pretty good for downtown I think.
I don't disagree with you at all and that's why the default reaction of "these things won't happen in Winnipeg" is lazy. True North are more than capable of pulling something grandiose like this off when the time comes - that's the key. I'm not at all suggesting this happens near future, I'm just saying that when it comes time to have these discussions that's the type of legacy building development that could define a generation.

Look, we all know that True North and the Richardsons are tight or at minimum work well together as evidenced by True North Square. It is an easy stretch to see them "master plan" that area around Westbrook together with the Shaw park site as a super mega development.

Again, not saying this is imminent at all as the focus right now is the SHED. All I'm saying is that at some point the SHED will be in the rear view mirror and something needs to be on the horizon. I can see it, but I'm not sitting here waiting with bated breath, just hopeful for the future, maybe 10-15 years down the road.

To clarify Biff, I agree the SHED is "big boy", but what I'm thinking of at Shaw Park / Westbrook is bigger boy, next level.

[cheswick]

What people seem to be forget in new arena site speculation is the costs into those downtown developments will long be sunk costs in the past. Building a new arena near by to leverage those won't have the same return.

Everyone is also overlooking that Chipman is heavily invested in development near Portage Ave and the Perimeter and likely has a parcel of land set aside as a possible arena site.

One of the thing True North has done on phenomenal job on with MTS Centre is if you go to an event there there is a good chance you park in their lot, go for pre-game dinner/drinks at a place they own or in a building they own, and then the same post-game. True North makes a lot of money off the "value adds" to attending something at the current location.

If they say built a new arena at a different location downtown or replacing Shaw Park they are going to have a difficult time capturing those same value adds. If on the other hand they built in the middle of the Chipman controlled area on west Winnipeg odds are they could pull off a repeat. The add piece there is that part of town is somewhat underserviced for restaurants/lounges compared to similar areas. It also has higher end housing close by which would appeal to more established players and there is a "luxury apartment" building planned for almost next door to the Ice Plex which would likely appeal to younger NHL players and those in the AHL.

And well WestGate in Phoenix failed for a variety of reasons, the design of the site, other than the arena blocking the primary event venue (NFL stadium) it is a pretty well thought out pre/post event area. I cannot find the exact number of event days Bell MTS Place had in 2018 but it was fairly high, something like 2 out of 3 days they had something there. Sure Moose games and smaller events don't have the same impact but that type of induced demand could help prop up a WestGate style entertainment district.

Chipman isn't building an arena without public money, and he's not getting public money to build one at the perimeter.

[bomberjet]

No way they build an arena near the Perimeter after the shit show at IGF.

Let's go pie in the sky. Ley's say in 20 years Slimey Sam finally get's lost and Shaw Park is up for grabs.

Chipman buys it from the City, demos, builds a new rink. One that is maybe slightly more capacity. But has larger concourses, more amenities, better locker rooms, etc.

Chipman then demos MTS Centre and redevelops that land into something new. Towers, whatever it is. Money maker for them.

Chipman then also spearheads development of lands adjacent to the new site. Sea of parking lots other side the track. Railside north end. The land near the river form Shaw Park. There's a ton of potential there. Win, win, win for him.

[esquire]

No way they build an arena near the Perimeter after the shit show at IGF.

Let's go pie in the sky. Ley's say in 20 years Slimey Sam finally get's lost and Shaw Park is up for grabs.

Chipman buys it from the City, demos, builds a new rink. One that is maybe slightly more capacity. But has larger concourses, more amenities, better locker rooms, etc.

Chipman then demos MTS Centre and redevelops that land into something new. Towers, whatever it is. Money maker for them.

Chipman then also spearheads development of lands adjacent to the new site. Sea of parking lots other side the track. Railside north end. The land near the river form Shaw Park. There's a ton of potential there. Win, win, win for him.

That would be a pretty sweet scenario I admit.

But what prompted my initial comment that got this conversation going was wondering whether downtown will go so far downhill in the wake of covid that a suburban arena becomes more appealing to attract fans and players alike? If in 10 years we have objectively the worst downtown in the NHL, then do you simply pack up and move to a more polished part of town? Or will downtown bounce back?

[P&M40BELOW]

No way they build an arena near the Perimeter after the shit show at IGF.

Let's go pie in the sky. Ley's say in 20 years Slimey Sam finally get's lost and Shaw Park is up for grabs.

Chipman buys it from the City, demos, builds a new rink. One that is maybe slightly more capacity. But has larger concourses, more amenities, better locker rooms, etc.

Chipman then demos MTS Centre and redevelops that land into something new. Towers, whatever it is. Money maker for them.

Chipman then also spearheads development of lands adjacent to the new site. Sea of parking lots other side the track. Railside north end. The land near the river form Shaw Park. There's a ton of potential there. Win, win, win for him.

The flaw in that timing is that Mark turned 60 last year. In 20 years he’s 80. Probably looking to sell or transition out before that time. The Shaw Park site is the perfect location for the next arena.

[P&M40BELOW]

You’re hired!

[buzzg]

If the city were smart (...) they'd solve the barren Westbrook area by partnering with private (a) developer(s) to integrate a flagship RT station into the base of a big development or tower. Like "real" TOD.


To what buzzg was saying earlier, the CN line/Waterfront/William Stephenson triangle would pretty well have to be maxed out to build a large arena there. That said, I can't see why a BRT/LRT route running alongside the CN line couldn't work in terms of fit... if an arena were built there some day it would probably be a pretty good amenity when it comes to getting people to and from events.

The nice thing about an arena on that site is that any kind of spinoff development would likely go in the underdeveloped lands to the west along Westbrook. It would be nice to see that area finally get built up a little.

Important to note the transitway is going on the west side of the tracks, so it wouldn't cut into the Shaw Park area. Again, unless the rails are relocated. IMO if/when that happens, we should keep the rail structure and turn it into an elevated greenway like in St. Louis. Would be an incredible amenity connecting a lot of the city.

The transitway was supposed to parallel the track all the way from union station through St. B to Kildonan Place area. There's room. Apparently CN didnt want to play nice somewhere so the City abandoned that option all together.

If there was an arena there, maybe things would be different. I did a measure in google earth. MTS centre is about 12,500m2. Shaw park site is about 30,000m2. So quite a bit larger. Rogers Place is a palace, but the overall site is about 32,000 m2. Same as shaw park.

Shaw Park has lots of space square footage wise, but it's kind of a square, it doesn't appear to be long enough currently to accomodate what a future arena would need. Sure there's some room for road realignment, but not much. River is there, CMHR lands, rail underpass location would be tough to move, especially given that Railside will likely be fully built out in 15-20 years. If this is a real option, city and Forks need to start planning now.

My hope is that they upgrade and renovate the current arena as necessary to get 100 years out of it. I think it occupies the sweet spot in both capacity and location in the City.

IMO, there is no reason this cannot happen.

Treat it like a wise man owns a car. Buy something modest, easy to maintain, and drive it till it's dead.

I agree in theory, but I think the only way to make that happen would be to expand the upper concourses over the street, rebuild the entire upper deck (rows are too narrow), and take over all some of Donald and maybe all of Hargrave... would be tough. The renovations to KeyBank arena in Seattle (now Climate Pledge Arena lol) are $700m. When Target Center did just cosmetic renovations 2 years ago, they were over $140m (more than cost of Bell MTS).

[CoryB]

a suburban arena becomes more appealing to attract fans and players alike?

I keep saying it and no one wants to listen. Chipman and many players already live within a long walking distance of the Ice Plex. Buff reportedly has (had?) a home in Southpointe. Players aren't living downtown and are going to go where the houses make sense. The arena location is mostly irrelevant unless you say build it two hours outside of Winnipeg (hello Glendale and Kanata).

[esquire]

I keep saying it and no one wants to listen. Chipman and many players already live within a long walking distance of the Ice Plex. Buff reportedly has (had?) a home in Southpointe. Players aren't living downtown and are going to go where the houses make sense. The arena location is mostly irrelevant unless you say build it two hours outside of Winnipeg (hello Glendale and Kanata).

Yeah, I wouldn't have considered downtown to be a huge impediment to attracting players in the before times, but post-covid downtown is shaping up to be a pretty ghastly place, at least for the near term. Not many players with a choice in the matter are likely to be impressed by a drive down Portage past the closed down Bay, the closed down Staples, Portage Place, etc.

Although I suppose the big x-factor here is Cheswick's comment... governments might be hesitant to support an arena project way out in the burbs. If so, could that force any new arena to find a site downtown? I would think it's extremely unlikely that TNSE builds a new arena entirely on its own dime. Edmonton built a palatial arena for Katz, it's hard to imagine that TNSE wouldn't find a way to get huge public dollars in a similar manner.

[EdwardTH]

Yeah, I wouldn't have considered downtown to be a huge impediment to attracting players in the before times, but post-covid downtown is shaping up to be a pretty ghastly place, at least for the near term. Not many players with a choice in the matter are likely to be impressed by a drive down Portage past the closed down Bay, the closed down Staples, Portage Place, etc.

Although I suppose the big x-factor here is Cheswick's comment... governments might be hesitant to support an arena project way out in the burbs. If so, could that force any new arena to find a site downtown? I would think it's extremely unlikely that TNSE builds a new arena entirely on its own dime. Edmonton built a palatial arena for Katz, it's hard to imagine that TNSE wouldn't find a way to get huge public dollars in a similar manner.

This is a pretty silly discussion IMO. When agents and GMs are discussing trades/contracts do they spend a lot of time discussing the views on the drive to the rink? I feel like you're just letting your Winnipeg inferiority complex get the best of you.

[esquire]

This is a pretty silly discussion IMO. When agents and GMs are discussing trades/contracts do they spend a lot of time discussing the views on the drive to the rink? I feel like you're just letting your Winnipeg inferiority complex get the best of you.

I'm not saying it will be the deciding factor, but finding ways to appeal to your talent has to rate somewhere in the decision making process, no?

[drew]

This is a pretty silly discussion IMO. When agents and GMs are discussing trades/contracts do they spend a lot of time discussing the views on the drive to the rink? I feel like you're just letting your Winnipeg inferiority complex get the best of you.

I have to agree with this.

A large percentage of the practices and training happens out at the Ice Plex.

The drive from their house to the rink (whether downtown or to Headingley) is probably mindless driving listening to music. Probably not playing spot the for lease sign or spot the surface parking lot.

The part we do need to improve is for the visiting players. They get the walk from Portage and Main to the arena. Once the TNS is completed, I think that part of the equation will be vastly improved.

[pacman]

If the city were smart (...) they'd solve the barren Westbrook area by partnering with private (a) developer(s) to integrate a flagship RT station into the base of a big development or tower. Like "real" TOD.




Important to note the transitway is going on the west side of the tracks, so it wouldn't cut into the Shaw Park area. Again, unless the rails are relocated. IMO if/when that happens, we should keep the rail structure and turn it into an elevated greenway like in St. Louis. Would be an incredible amenity connecting a lot of the city.



Shaw Park has lots of space square footage wise, but it's kind of a square, it doesn't appear to be long enough currently to accomodate what a future arena would need. Sure there's some room for road realignment, but not much. River is there, CMHR lands, rail underpass location would be tough to move, especially given that Railside will likely be fully built out in 15-20 years. If this is a real option, city and Forks need to start planning now.



I agree in theory, but I think the only way to make that happen would be to expand the upper concourses over the street, rebuild the entire upper deck (rows are too narrow), and take over all some of Donald and maybe all of Hargrave... would be tough. The renovations to KeyBank arena in Seattle (now Climate Pledge Arena lol) are $700m. When Target Center did just cosmetic renovations 2 years ago, they were over $140m (more than cost of Bell MTS).

Regarding your bolded above, it might intuitively SEEM like a small site, but if you actually measure off google there is already a ton of space without any realignments or additional land. The existing tiny MTS centre is about 95m wide x 155m long along the Donald (longer) side. If you place the arena roughly in the same orientation as the existing 1st and 3rd base lines at shaw park you get a complete rectangle minimum 115 x 165 which is already about 50% larger than the current arena's footprint not counting all the rest of the land outside that minimum rectangle.

Again, the size of the current Shaw park parcel would be more than enough to build whatever we would ever dream of putting there not even including the flexibility to realign/adjust roads in the area.

A partnership with Richardson's to development their lands around the Westbrook side together with this new arena and a rapid transit hub would be a dream... if and when the time comes.

[DancingDuck]

Lots of really interesting comments in regards to potential sites for an arena replacement... Polo Park, Shaw Park, Assiniboine Downs, etc.... But everyone has somehow missed the most obvious solution:

Build the new arena at Dreamscape

[esquire]

Lots of really interesting comments in regards to potential sites for an arena replacement... Polo Park, Shaw Park, Assiniboine Downs, etc.... But everyone has somehow missed the most obvious solution:

Build the new arena at Dreamscape

:duh

Of course! How did we ever miss that... discussion closed!

[NewIreland]

Not many players with a choice in the matter are likely to be impressed by a drive down Portage past the closed down Bay, the closed down Staples, Portage Place, etc.

Yes yes a very "ghastly" downtown indeed with a finished 300 Main full of tenants, Pumphouse Phase 3, Great West Metal, brand new Inuit Art Centre, True North Square phase 2, Wawenesa tower, Broadway Commons, New RRC campus, Medical Arts Redevelopment, Forks Redevelopment, Market Square, Smith Steet, 433 Main, Pantages etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. This is some next level trolling! Move on pal. You don't like downtown... fine. But your rhetoric doesn't reflect what's actually happening.

[esquire]

Yes yes a very "ghastly" downtown indeed with a finished 300 Main full of tenants, Pumphouse Phase 3, Great West Metal, brand new Inuit Art Centre, True North Square phase 2, Wawenesa tower, Broadway Commons, New RRC campus, Medical Arts Redevelopment, Forks Redevelopment, Market Square, Smith Steet, 433 Main, Pantages etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. This is some next level trolling! Move on pal. You don't like downtown... fine. But your rhetoric doesn't reflect what's actually happening.

I love downtown and I don't want to diminish the impact of those projects you mentioned, but the reality I can see is that downtown 2022 is going to be a much different place than downtown 2019. And not really for the better.

Every downtown in Canada is going to feel it to some extent as a result of covid, but we have less cushion to absorb the blow than other downtowns of Canadian cities in the 250,000+ population category. Frankly I think it's going to be tough sledding for downtown Winnipeg for at least the next few years.

[NewIreland]

I love downtown and I don't want to diminish the impact of those projects you mentioned, but the reality I can see is that downtown 2022 is going to be a much different place than downtown 2019. And not really for the better.

Every downtown in Canada is going to feel it to some extent as a result of covid, but we have less cushion to absorb the blow than other downtowns of Canadian cities in the 250,000+ population category. Frankly I think it's going to be tough sledding for downtown Winnipeg for at least the next few years.

And the suburbs are flourishing?

[CoryB]

I'm not saying it will be the deciding factor, but finding ways to appeal to your talent has to rate somewhere in the decision making process, no?

There is a shade of truth to this. Take Andrew Ladd for example, his wife is a doctor. When relocating having opportunities for your spouse to find work in their field, reasonable communities for players to live in, decent schools for the kids, etc can be factors.

Milt Stegal's wife quite famously refused to relocate to Winnipeg wanting instead to stay in the USA, Atlanta I believe. While many American football players that come to play in Canada prefer to move here long term when possible as the racial divide is significantly different in Canada than the USA, especially the southern states.

Buff and likely Little will be the first players to basically retire from the Jets 2.0. It will be interesting to see long term trends on if players stay here after their playing careers.

[esquire]

Buff and likely Little will be the first players to basically retire from the Jets 2.0. It will be interesting to see long term trends on if players stay here after their playing careers.

I would not expect too many Jets to retire here if for no other reason than because these days NHLers have enough money to go to some warm weather destination. The bonus is that many of those kinds of places have NHL/AHL hockey teams that can use their skill sets, or at least provide a hub for them to develop and use their connections.

I think the days of a guy like Joe Daley sticking around after retirement and opening up a hockey card shop are mostly over, although it wouldn't surprise me if a small handful guys who marry locals end up sticking around.

The Blue Bombers are a different story, I would expect a few more of them to stay. Partly because there are so many more of them, and partly because not all of them will have the means to simply up and relocate to California, Arizona or whatever other warm place. Quite a few have stayed and built post-football careers here.

[JHikka]

There is a shade of truth to this. Take Andrew Ladd for example, his wife is a doctor. When relocating having opportunities for your spouse to find work in their field, reasonable communities for players to live in, decent schools for the kids, etc can be factors.
I mentioned this before in my previous post, and Ladd isn't the only NHL player with a wife whose work requires her to be in specific cities or regions. These sorts of issues are why Winnipeg is always on no-trade lists.

Buff and likely Little will be the first players to basically retire from the Jets 2.0. It will be interesting to see long term trends on if players stay here after their playing careers.

Buff is from MIN, no? His hometown isn't overly far away.

The Blue Bombers are a different story, I would expect a few more of them to stay. Partly because there are so many more of them, and partly because not all of them will have the means to simply up and relocate to California, Arizona or whatever other warm place. Quite a few have stayed and built post-football careers here.
This comes partly down to the fact that CFLers have to work in the off-season or have careers outside of football given the lower pay. It makes sense that if a player starts a career whilst playing in the CFL that they're more likely to stay, but at the same time they're more likely to be American earning lower wages north of the border. Probably a wash in the end.

[cheswick]

I mentioned this before in my previous post, and Ladd isn't the only NHL player with a wife whose work requires her to be in specific cities or regions. These sorts of issues are why Winnipeg is always on no-trade lists.



Buff is from MIN, no? His hometown isn't overly far away.


This comes partly down to the fact that CFLers have to work in the off-season or have careers outside of football given the lower pay. It makes sense that if a player starts a career whilst playing in the CFL that they're more likely to stay, but at the same time they're more likely to be American earning lower wages north of the border. Probably a wash in the end.

Not sure why Ladds wife was even raised as an example. She had an optometry clinic in the city and from all indications was happy being in Winnipeg. Her work had zero to do with him not resigning here. Him valuing himself more than the Jets did is the reason he was dealt. Thankfully he turned down their initial offer and the Jets pivoted to Byfuglien. Ladd is getting paid $5.5m to play in the AHL. Wonder what the opportunities are for his wife in Bridgeport?

Yes Byfuglien in from Minnesota, his wife is from BC. They now live in Minnesota.

Certainly an average CFL career doesn't buy you the luxury of never working again like one in the NHL would. I think a lot of the former CFLers who stick around are in careers that their local celebrity helps with. Local media, restaurants, sales etc. Though Rod Hill worked for RBC after retiring before being canned.

[CoryB]

Buff is from MIN, no? His hometown isn't overly far away.

Didn't Buff marry a Winnipeg girl and have at least one child with her? Just a guess but there might be reasons to stay in a larger city like Winnipeg than moving back to a smaller town in MN.

This comes partly down to the fact that CFLers have to work in the off-season or have careers outside of football given the lower pay. It makes sense that if a player starts a career whilst playing in the CFL that they're more likely to stay, but at the same time they're more likely to be American earning lower wages north of the border. Probably a wash in the end.

Keep in mind a lot of the CFL players come from, shall we say a more disadvantaged background, and moving back home to a regional with very clear racial lines isn't the most ideal. More than a few CFL players have ended up on the wrong side of the law. Staying in Canada can be a better choice for these reasons.

--

In terms of post playing career, if you are a decent caliber playing even if the NHL/AHL don't have a role for you off ice the college and junior teams seem to have pretty large roles in player development. There are private academies too like The Rink.

[blueandgoldguy]

I did a map overlay of Rogers Place on Shaw Park, and yeah, it's tight... Rogers Place would basically fill in the entire space between the tracks, Waterfront and William Stephenson Way. But I wouldn't necessarily say it's too small... there would just have to be some road adjustments.

The thing is, we wouldn't need a 850,000 square foot Rogers Centre to have an adequately upgraded arena. The footprint at Shaw Park and the research facility on Memorial are approx. 30% bigger than the current arena's site based on satellite images. This would be more than enough space to enlarge the concourses, lobbies and washrooms to capacities comparable to Xcel Energy Centre in St. Paul. That arena is 650,000 square feet. I have been there several times and it feels huge compared to BellMTS. Far more points of sale, washroom fixtures and better crowd flow on all levels. That arena would easily fit on the two sites - Shaw Park and research facility on Memorial.

[optimusREIM]

The thing is, we wouldn't need a 850,000 square foot Rogers Centre to have an adequately upgraded arena. The footprint at Shaw Park and the research facility on Memorial are approx. 30% bigger than the current arena's site based on satellite images. This would be more than enough space to enlarge the concourses, lobbies and washrooms to capacities comparable to Xcel Energy Centre in St. Paul. Th2at arena is 650,000 square feet. I have been there several times and it feels huge compared to BellMTS. Far more points of sale, washroom fixtures and better crowd flow on all levels. That arena would easily fit on the two sites - Shaw Park and research facility on Memorial.

What's the address on the research facility? I feel like I'm missing something

[robertocarlos]

I keep saying it and no one wants to listen. Chipman and many players already live within a long walking distance of the Ice Plex. Buff reportedly has (had?) a home in Southpointe. Players aren't living downtown and are going to go where the houses make sense. The arena location is mostly irrelevant unless you say build it two hours outside of Winnipeg (hello Glendale and Kanata).

That's a super long bus ride from most everywhere.

[buzzg]

I keep saying it and no one wants to listen. Chipman and many players already live within a long walking distance of the Ice Plex. Buff reportedly has (had?) a home in Southpointe. Players aren't living downtown and are going to go where the houses make sense. The arena location is mostly irrelevant unless you say build it two hours outside of Winnipeg (hello Glendale and Kanata).

I think this is so far off base to be honest. The Jets practice at the IcePlex already and only go to the arena for games. It's a lot easier to have the small amount of people that make up the team and staff to travel wherever the arena is than say 18,000 of your fans 41+ nights a year. The fans pay the bills and fill the seats, that's who you have to cater to.

What's the address on the research facility? I feel like I'm missing something

Think they mean Colony, the NRC site.

[optimusREIM]

I think this is so far off base to be honest. The Jets practice at the IcePlex already and only go to the arena for games. It's a lot easier to have the small amount of people that make up the team and staff to travel wherever the arena is than say 18,000 of your fans 41+ nights a year. The fans pay the bills and fill the seats, that's who you have to cater to.



Think they mean Colony, the NRC site.

Gotcha

[DavefromSt.Vital]

The part we do need to improve is for the visiting players. They get the walk from Portage and Main to the arena. Once the TNS is completed, I think that part of the equation will be vastly improved.

Actually a lot of teams stay at the Delta. Despite the proximity, they normally take buses to the arena and enter through the tunnel.

One time we checked in just as Calgary was checking out. A fellow guest commented he had seen less security with Prime Ministers and Presidents.

My son and I were puzzled as to why they would take a bus for such a short distance. Then as we walked to the game we entered the Cityplace food court and found it jammed with Jets fans. Mystery solved!

[esquire]

^ I have seen AHL players/teams in the skywalks going to and from morning skates, although I'm not sure if they ever walk to the game later on or just get on the bus too.

[CoryB]

For every visiting pro team the players have some amount of free time. If you spend enough time walking around downtown you will eventually see players of visiting NHL, AHL and CFL teams. That said in their free time they don't walk around as a full team so it is one or two of them typically.

[esquire]

For every visiting pro team the players have some amount of free time. If you spend enough time walking around downtown you will eventually see players of visiting NHL, AHL and CFL teams. That said in their free time they don't walk around as a full team so it is one or two of them typically.

I have definitely noticed AHL and CFL players around downtown, but I have never spotted a NHL player although I concede that I'm not the greatest at recognizing them. I also often see large gaggles of U-Sports basketball and volleyball players in town for games at the U of W... I only know who they are because of the team gear they're wearing, though.

[bomberjet]

I've seen a lot of hockey players walking around the skywalk. Since I worked downtown, which I no longer do sadly..

Had a run in with Max Domi, literally. He's pretty small haha

[CoryB]

That's a super long bus ride from most everywhere.

Let's be real - almost all the fans attending Jets games in person either drive themselves or are taking a taxi (or similar). And with that in mind the travel time post-game from the Ice Plex site to home is going to be similar or shorter to that of a downtown location. The post-game travel times from the current state of downtown to home are worse than peak weekday rush hour traffic before the pandemic. Most of the issue is the surge in traffic around the arena site itself but it carries out past the Perimeter and is significantly above the same traffic volume on the same route on a non-event night.

[drew]

^ I used to take bus back home from Jets games early on. I gave up because they are too full. Now I mostly just walk (live in Wolseley).

There are lots of people from the West End, Wolseley, St. James that take the bus downtown to games. It's convenient enough if you live close to Portage Ave. I suspect it's the same for residential areas closeish to downtown in the other directions too.

[esquire]

I would be curious to know the bus ridership levels for Jets games. I'd wager that it's pretty small. Maybe in the area of a hundred or so people working the game, but personally I'd be surprised to learn that there were more than a thousand fans taking the bus to and from the game on average. The bus stops never look that busy after the games, although I can see it making sense for people who live along the higher-frequency routes.

It's a far cry from Bomber games where it's clear that there are probably thousands of people taking the bus (either regular WT buses or the various shuttle services/park and rides).

[EdwardTH]

^ I used to take bus back home from Jets games early on. I gave up because they are too full. Now I mostly just walk (live in Wolseley).

There are lots of people from the West End, Wolseley, St. James that take the bus downtown to games. It's convenient enough if you live close to Portage Ave. I suspect it's the same for residential areas closeish to downtown in the other directions too.

I walk to games from Osborne and always see plenty of other fans doing the same en route. BellMTS is about the best possible location in the city for transit service.

[drew]

I would be curious to know the bus ridership levels for Jets games. I'd wager that it's pretty small. Maybe in the area of a hundred or so people working the game, but personally I'd be surprised to learn that there were more than a thousand fans taking the bus to and from the game on average. The bus stops never look that busy after the games, although I can see it making sense for people who live along the higher-frequency routes.

It's a far cry from Bomber games where it's clear that there are probably thousands of people taking the bus (either regular WT buses or the various shuttle services/park and rides).

If I had to guess, I would assume ~ 2,500 people on average would use some form of transit to and from the Jets games. There are easy 10+ packed to brim buses heading west right after each game. It's certainly not an insignificant amount.

[esquire]

^ That's more than I would have thought. Although I tend to exit on Graham Avenue and not on Portage where the packed #11s would be. The ones on Graham (16, 18, etc.) generally don't look all that busy.

[bomberjet]

And that's why we need a proper transit system that moves people quickly. Not just for Jets games, for everything..

But don't tell that to Jimmy from Transcona. Imma drive ma truck down thur.

[pacman]

Let's be real - almost all the fans attending Jets games in person either drive themselves or are taking a taxi (or similar). And with that in mind the travel time post-game from the Ice Plex site to home is going to be similar or shorter to that of a downtown location. The post-game travel times from the current state of downtown to home are worse than peak weekday rush hour traffic before the pandemic. Most of the issue is the surge in traffic around the arena site itself but it carries out past the Perimeter and is significantly above the same traffic volume on the same route on a non-event night.
Traffic after a game not fun within a 5-6 block radius but it is a non-issue once you get beyond that, to say it carries past the perimeter is hilarious.

Also, I wouldn't minimize the amount of people that currently walk/take a bus to events, or even taxi because its relatively cheap because of the central location. Even though it's not a massive number its still significant (agree with drew closer to 2500). If an arena was at iceplex you could drop that number down almost to zero, especially on a crisp prairie winter night.

Also, unless there was massive commercial development immediately around a perimeter arena, the vast majority of fans would be straight to the game and then straight home, no reason to come early or leave late. Downtown its not exactly a hive of activity but there is still significant entertainment dollars spent before and after the game in the vicinity. The vast majority of those dollars currently spent outside of the arena footprint would not follow Chipman out to the perimeter.

An arena out there would be a terrible location. Not saying it would never happen since Chipman has the vested interest in lands out there like you said, just saying its a terrible idea.

[Biff]

Having the arena downtown is beneficial to everyone in the city (wheel and spoke). I live on the NE edge by the Perimeter and E St Paul. I drive to games and it takes me 15 min to get home. My son plays hockey at the Ice-Plex often and it takes us 25 min+ at best to get there.

I love the vibe downtown before Jets games. Always go an hour early. We visit, Yellow Dog, Browns, Local, Mitzy's and looove the Hargrave Street Market (not all in one night). It wouldn't be like that out by the Downs.

[plrh]

I frequently take transit to Jets games, but I live right off of Corydon so the 18 takes me door to door. It's very nearly as convenient as driving. I also get a free parking spot by Broadway and Smith, but I only use that if I'm going to a game with work people (ie not drinking). Most often I take the bus to the game and a cab home, because it's only $10 more than transit. The worst part of the bus is waiting after the game for your bus because the wait is usually a few minutes.

The bus to the game is usually less than half Jets game people and rarely full. I would not take the bus to the Downs unless there was some sort of park and ride within walking distance for me. Thinking about it, I have never carpooled to a Jets game; I have only ever traveled alone.

[bomberjet]

I know we're all goin pie in the sky re: Shaw Park. But I love the current location. Seems perfect to me.

If you're going to drive to a large event, you should expect to be stuck in traffic. I just don't understand how someone can complain about that. IGF did rather well getting people out. But costs a lot of money for the traffic police and chartered buses. The IGF location has really made me think about going to games or not. It kind of sucks coming out from a great game and piling into a school bus for a 30-45 min drive.

[buzzg]

I would definitely say downtown around the arena is a hive of activity on event nights. There's people walking around everywhere, patios busy, lines to get in places – there's definitely a vibe. I just wish TNSE would add some better lighting or something on the outside of the building so it looks a big more active on event nights.

And yeah, IGF's location kind of killed the "night out" vibe Bomber games used to have when there were so many places around Polo you could walk to before or after a game. West Portage would be awful.

One thing I do think the city needs to do is create a designated drop off zone somewhere close to but not beside the arena. Say no parking on the 2 blocks of St. Mary flanking Donald, and the Donald block along the library. Maybe the parking lanes on Portage on either side of the arena. Because there's no nearby drop-off areas (and street parking is allowed everywhere) you get way too many people trying to get close to the arena which makes traffic (and transit) worse. There's aaallllwaaayyys people stopping at the bus stop on Portage for loading and it's brutal. As someone who's gone to 10 games+ a year since the return, I've seen a transit or police officer there at most 5 times waving people off. Most big city arenas have loading areas blocks away from the venue.

[blueandgoldguy]

Since it's almost a certainty a hypothetical new arena will be mostly subsidized by the public ie. Edmonton's model, a deal will only be consummated under a left of centre government as history suggests.

Winnipeg Arena and Winnipeg Stadium were constructed while the province was under a majority liberal government. BellMTS Centre and IGF Field were constructed under a majority NDP government...with ongoing improvements to BellMTS financed by gambling revenues through a negotiation with the previous NDP government.

Meanwhile...

When the Jets made the jump to the NHL, instead of building a new arena, Winnipeg went the budget route expanding Winnipeg Arena with some ill-conceived upper deck seats and the infamous ski-slope seats at one end of the building and shoe-horning in 10 horribly inadequate suites for good measure...under a conservative government.

The Pan Am games would have been a perfect opportunity to build a new $100 - $125 million stadium for the Bombers. Sadly CANAD INNs stadium was refurbished for $10 - $20 million....under a conservative government.

It's funny when I read comments from posters on other forums complaining about "damn socialist governments" getting in the way of their beloved pro team obtaining a heavily subsidized pro sports facility that makes complete business sense according to them. That's certainly not our experience in Manitoba. Quite the opposite actually.

[pspeid]

Back to hockey for a moment...Jets got their first win last night against the Flames. From CBC website:

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/nhl-calgary-flames-winnipeg-jets-recap-1.5874132

I didn't see the entire game, so I was wondering what people thought of this first effort, especially from the defense? Is the shortened season going to help a team like the Jets? Should we start to plan the victory parade yet? (sorry, must have been channeling for a Leafs fan, there...)

[Jammon]

Back to hockey for a moment...Jets got their first win last night against the Flames. From CBC website:

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/nhl-calgary-flames-winnipeg-jets-recap-1.5874132

I didn't see the entire game, so I was wondering what people thought of this first effort, especially from the defense? Is the shortened season going to help a team like the Jets? Should we start to plan the victory parade yet? (sorry, must have been channeling for a Leafs fan, there...)

First period was a disaster for the Jets. They were getting burned up the middle the entire period. And Helle looked really rusty. It was an awful period. Second period, it was a complete 180. The defense were solid and the forwards spent large amounts of time in the Flames zone. The Jets showed that they are a force to be reckoned with when they have time in the offensive zone. They had Calgary on the back heel the entire period. 3rd period was definitely more balanced, though the Jets had better scoring opportunities mostly because of Markstrom blundering when he came out of the net to play the puck. With that being said, he stoned Scheifele big time with an amazing glove save for a puck that was destined to go in.

Laine was the best player in that game, bar none. Scheifele played well, as did Ehlers. Already stated to see Stastny's influence on the second line. Pionk started off horribly but seemed to get better throughout the game. As far as defense goes, the only guy that was completely out of his element was Niku. He was good when they were on the offense, but I was watching him and thinking "wtf is he doing out there?" He looked completely lost at times.

Looking forward to this all-Canadian division. if the Jets play the way they did in the second period, they can beat any team in this division. If they play the way they did in the first, they will lose to every team in this division. Haha.

What did everyone else think?

[optimusREIM]

First period was a disaster for the Jets. They were getting burned up the middle the entire period. And Helle looked really rusty. It was an awful period. Second period, it was a complete 180. The defense were solid and the forwards spent large amounts of time in the Flames zone. The Jets showed that they are a force to be reckoned with when they have time in the offensive zone. They had Calgary on the back heel the entire period. 3rd period was definitely more balanced, though the Jets had better scoring opportunities mostly because of Markstrom blundering when he came out of the net to play the puck. With that being said, he stoned Scheifele big time with an amazing glove save for a puck that was destined to go in.

Laine was the best player in that game, bar none. Scheifele played well, as did Ehlers. Already stated to see Stastny's influence on the second line. Pionk started off horribly but seemed to get better throughout the game. As far as defense goes, the only guy that was completely out of his element was Niku. He was good when they were on the offense, but I was watching him and thinking "wtf is he doing out there?" He looked completely lost at times.

Looking forward to this all-Canadian division. if the Jets play the way they did in the second period, they can beat any team in this division. If they play the way they did in the first, they will lose to every team in this division. Haha.

What did everyone else think?

Agreed

[bomberjet]

Poolman looks horrendous.

Laine looked into it!

That was my take away from casually watching the game.

[esquire]

I was fearing the worst after that first period but the team really pulled it together. It was a complete 180 from the first to the second.

Defense was weak at the start but they stood their ground. It still kind of feels like the D is held together with bailing wire and bubble gum, though... one of the youngsters really needs to step up big this season. Otherwise it could get ugly once injuries hit. I wouldn't be too hard on Niku, I think he'll step up. You take away a couple of his turnovers and suddenly his game wasn't that bad... although obviously if he's still doing that a few weeks from now there could be a problem.

[dmacc]

Jets are on pace for 112 points this year! What should the parade route look like?

[CoryB]

I feel the Jets got lucky. They were owned by the Flames in the first and seemed to suck wind for the rest of the game trying to even the game up.

Laine finally was an asset on the ice instead of the "skate to the offensive faceoff circle and wait for a pass" liability of past seasons.

Also Markstrom was definitely the better of the two goalies on the ice last night. With Hellebuyck being a Veznia winner it looks like Markstrom could be a true contender there and a future thorn in the Jets side this season.

The other take away is the on ice hate between the teams seemed really strong for the first game of the season. With the teams playing each other 8 more times and some back to back to back series it could get really physical and ugly in the future. Without the bulk of Buff to help carry the weight of a physical game it will be interesting to see who steps into that role.

The addition of Forsberg is also a bit of a head scratcher right now.

[buzzg]

My takeaways:

Pay Laine whatever the hell he wants.

Forbort is the new Thorburn (in a good way). Think we're gonna love him.

We need DeMelo back (it's just a baby!!!)

As with last year, the hole Tanev left on the third line is still massive. Copp/Lowry haven't been the same since, and there isn't a single player on the Jets that brings the energy and spark that Tanev did – Appleton ain't it. We need to get a bottom six energy guy to bring some "heart" to the team. We used to have the best 3rd line in the NHL, now I'd say it's middling.

[esquire]

The addition of Forsberg is also a bit of a head scratcher right now.

I think they just needed a warm body on the taxi squad after Comrie got picked up on waivers by the Devils.

[cheswick]

I think they just needed a warm body on the taxi squad after Comrie got picked up on waivers by the Devils.

Technically Forsberg can't go to the taxi squad. To get sent there the Jets would have to waive him and at that point the Oilers would be able to re-claim him for their taxi squad, since he started the season with them. They're going to have to stick with 3 goalies on the roster, but I mean with a taxi squad it's easy enough to do.

[esquire]

^ Interesting, thanks for clarifying. So who gets bumped off the roster to make way for Forsberg?

[bomberjet]

This is like my hockey pools.

Plan the parade!!

Trade him!

It's been 1 game.

[bomberjet]

Technically Forsberg can't go to the taxi squad. To get sent there the Jets would have to waive him and at that point the Oilers would be able to re-claim him for their taxi squad, since he started the season with them. They're going to have to stick with 3 goalies on the roster, but I mean with a taxi squad it's easy enough to do.

Wouldnt Edmonton have to put him through waivers again to get to the taxi squad?

Each team needs to carry 3 goalies on the NHL/taxi squad roasters. Losing Comrie leaves them short a goalie. Seems like teams are playing musical goalies right now.

[cheswick]

^ Interesting, thanks for clarifying. So who gets bumped off the roster to make way for Forsberg?

Vesalainen and Stanley have both been sent to the taxi squad (both are waiver exempt). With a taxi squad its just a paper transaction so it doesn't make much of a difference. Well except for those player who make their AHL salary of $70k on the taxi squad vs ~$900k on the actual roster lol.