Tim Hortons Field | 40m | ? | Complete [Archive] - Page 33

realcity

Dec 31, 2010, 4:20 AM

I've sort of been following this ongoing saga and as a CFL fan I hate to see any team in trouble and no I wouldn't say Hamilton's a laughing stock either. Not funny at all. But I'm sure the nation is bewildered at how dysfunctional the whole process has been and the lack of compromise and cooperation on both sides given this once in a generation opportunity to build a stadium in your city. It reeks of inflated egos. Some folks would rather see a century old franchise, that sort of puts your city on the map so to speak,and a new stadium, for more than just the ticats, disappear into the sunset and not blink an eye. That's unfortunate and a little puzzling. I just hope that Regina's proposed stadium process doesn't go down the same road of head slapping and embarassment.

I couldn't agree more. Hamilton is its worst enemy. It often takes outsiders to look in and ask, why isn't Hamilton a great city? It's because of our own backwards thinking. We vote the same backwards politicians in power*, we still think the NDP** can do something great, we forget that we live in a city, so we debate infills, density, mixed-use, height restrictions, two-way roads, bike lanes, LRT (or not) and the size of residential lawns. The only one killing Hamilton is Hamilton itself.

Here we have two levels of upper government willing to invest $100 million in sport infrastructure and we have our own people saying "don't waste our tax dollars". While the money is already spent, it's just a matter of where.

*with the exception of voting Bratina as mayor. I think that means some people want somethings to change.

** Chris Charlton, Andrea Horwath and David Christoperson..... yea way to go guys. We'll wait to hear of your accomplishments come next election and the same people will vote you back into office for doing nothing.

realcity

Dec 31, 2010, 4:49 AM

okay you made me do this
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/theshawsphotos/confed-with-stadiums.gif?t=1293770494

I'm only illustrating Copps Coliseum for scale. I'm not suggesting another Copps be built on Confed Park. This is illustrating that a stadium with the same footprint as IvW can fit in an area that is neither green nor interrupts the highway, unless the batting cages do.

There is plenty of room for parking and development.... development on the scale of Copps. I've also gone to the effort to show you the before and after... to kill the argument of "green space" that is removed. A dusty barely used section of Hamilton that could be our "new" signature for Hamilton/ Barely a road is even interrupted.

So all you green-spacers that are still reeling over the loss of the flying squirrels in the Redhill Valley, here's the proof... I don't think you'd even see a stray-cat around these parts.... of course there might be some kind of beetle that needs to be saved.

I think the argument was the word "Park" in Confederation "Park". This is Van Wagners. If the PR/Marketers had the jargon right, they would've been calling this land "Van Wagners Road", then everyone would realize what you where talking about. A dusty road periodically sprinkled with tar-spray to keep the dust to a minimum. And the once every ten years the raking of the beach of heroin needles and rotting carp. (if even that). I always wondered why Bayfront Beach on the Burlington side of the Highlevel seemed like a Florida beach compared to ours.

There is no way this infriges on the QEW.... Toronto can build a 60-story condo cavern over the Gardiner but we can't build a stadium on our Lake Front???

bigguy1231

Dec 31, 2010, 5:45 AM

wait wait. i need to go back a few posts. bigguy "most people don't read the sports pages"...?

Is that why every paper has a sports section? because noone reads it? And radio stations totally devoted to sports, several tv stations all sports and every local tv news station, has a sports segment. ?????

Remember your habits and likes and dislikes are not everyone else's. Lots of people like and enjoy sports. Maybe not you. But it means a lot to the real fans of sports and competition.

And I might ask those people that don't care for sports as entertainment refrain from the conversation and stop kiboshing it for those that it does mean a great importance to. If you don't care, then stop already.

It was always my suspicion that WH supporters never really cared about the Cats anyway, or aren't real sports fans. They were just FredFans and even moreso after his epic loss.

Let's hope one more counselor changes his opinion to examine Confed because that's our last hope to keep the Cats.

Now to repeat, keeping the Cats means a lot to a lot of people in Hamilton. If you are indifferent to pro-sports or even am-sports (like PanAm -- the second most watched amateur sports event in the world), keep quiet. It doesn't mean anything to you.

So you must be one of those deluded ones that believes everyone cares about sports. The reality is maybe 20% of the population are avid sports fans and maybe anothe 40-50% are casual viewers. The rest couldn't care less. If there were more than that we would get more than a few pages in the paper and a few sports channels on TV and radio.

I also said that I am a big sports fan and even I don't read the sports section everyday.

This isn't about tree huggers or green spacers, it's about tax dollars and how they are spent to benefit the community.

As for the Confederation Park issue, give it up. It's just not going to happen. City staff have said the park isn't big enough and I will take them at their word. They know what the requirements are. There are also numerous other issues that prevent them from building there and it has nothing to do with greenspace and everything to do with costs.

I have spoken to 2 councillors that I have known for years and they both have said that Confederation Park is a dead issue and neither one of them would be considered tree huggers.

realcity

Dec 31, 2010, 5:52 AM

Berklon

Dec 31, 2010, 5:53 AM

It was always my suspicion that WH supporters never really cared about the Cats anyway, or aren't real sports fans. They were just FredFans and even moreso after his epic loss.

And it's one hell of an assumption to make.

Now to repeat, keeping the Cats means a lot to a lot of people in Hamilton. If you are indifferent to pro-sports or even am-sports (like PanAm -- the second most watched amateur sports event in the world), keep quiet. It doesn't mean anything to you.

Keep quiet eh? Does that mean people who don't care about it get to avoid paying for it wth their taxes? If not, then they have a right to voice an opinion on the matter.

realcity

Dec 31, 2010, 5:58 AM

Taxes???? They're getting spent anyway, might as well have them spent at home. Earmarks, heard of them?

please refer to the graphic above regarding space at Confed Park. If CF is dead, it was a big mistake. Please pick out anything of my comment that you can, but also disregard anything you can't argue. Including this statement.

Keep the thread going until my graphic is off the page, I will repost it anyway. Now go fly a kite at Confed Park and picnic around the clover-leaf, because it's such lovely greenspace.

No, it's not about greenspace, that's just the excuse to not examine it. It's all about Fred and us buying now boarded up houses and a new brownfield -- as if we didn't own enough brownfields -- talk about wasted taxes. Go boohoo that Bratina won.. and celebrate that we'll lose the Ticats to Burlington -- as if we haven't lost enough to Burlington already -- because I know you don't care about the Ticats or else you'd be angry about this. And still be sore losers over the Redhill, guess what, we got the Redhill, now let's make the best of it. Sorry for the flying squirrels, I'm sure there is plenty of land in the remaining 99.9% of Canada for them to fly around.

Berklon

Dec 31, 2010, 6:03 AM

Taxes???? They're getting spent anyway, might as well have them spent at home.

So you're telling me the city isn't paying a dime for this thing? Anywhere? At any time? And if it goes over-budget, what then? And the Future Fund money... that's not the city's money?

I guess Burlington will get it since the Ticats want to move the team there and it won't cost Burlington a dime, right?

realcity

Dec 31, 2010, 6:15 AM

So you're telling me the city isn't paying a dime for this thing? Anywhere? At any time? And if it goes over-budget, what then? And the Future Fund money... that's not the city's money?

I guess Burlington will get it since the Ticats want to move the team there and it won't cost Burlington a dime, right?

OMG we already pay over $1mil for IVW every year.

Let me ask you this, would you want to pay extra taxes for WH? About $2 more every year to keep the Cats... Scratch that, actually both WH and CF will cost landowners about the same as keeping Ivor Wynne. Or do you want IVW to be gone too... and that land added to our brownfield inventory?

realcity

Dec 31, 2010, 6:25 AM

Waterdownguy

Dec 31, 2010, 3:08 PM

Let's use the FF on sewers for homeowners near the Redhill flooding and road repairs, because that's what the FF will be spent on ... something that my taxes are already supposed to pay for in the budget every year.

The City's Water / Wastewater capital program is spending $1.5 billion over the next 10 years on upgrading / replacing aging infrastructure (i.e Woodward treatement plant). I doubt spending the $45 million from the FF on sewers will be noticed by anyone or make any difference.

Being way out in the West End, the Confederation Park just does not seem like Hamilton to me. If the stadium was built in CF, there probably be very little benefit to Hamilton during Grey Cup festivals in my opinion. CF park is closer to downtown Burlington than Hamilton.

SteelTown

Dec 31, 2010, 4:25 PM

There has to be a compromise if the Ti Cats want Confederation Park. A good suggestion is zero or half the Future Fund towards the stadium construction at Confederation Park. Rest of the Future Fund could go towards the downtown, a McMaster campus.

BCTed

Dec 31, 2010, 4:50 PM

If you are indifferent to pro-sports or even am-sports (like PanAm -- the second most watched amateur sports event in the world), keep quiet. It doesn't mean anything to you.

Let's be honest with ourselves on the topic of the Pan Am Games. Even fairly hardcore sports fans do not care in the least about them and do not follow them at all. For Hamilton, the Games are just a good chance to justify the construction of a new stadium.

realcity

Dec 31, 2010, 6:29 PM

Kay Drage
]

from Hugh Macleod
http://hughmacleod.com/?p=708

matt602

Dec 31, 2010, 7:44 PM

Let's be honest with ourselves on the topic of the Pan Am Games. Even fairly hardcore sports fans do not care in the least about them and do not follow them at all. For Hamilton, the Games are just a good chance to justify the construction of a new stadium.

This. So true.

WentworthSt

Dec 31, 2010, 8:47 PM

The zoning was approved for one 9,000 seat arena. All this other stuff is new and hasn't been approved yet. The arena could fit in the North East corner, away from the protected land. The stadium and other buildings (probably) couldn't.

As others have said, though, there's been a highway exchange put in there recently, maybe the situation is different now. The biggest potential problem would be the two creeks running through that land, imo.

Fair enough... But waterways are constantly worked around or over for developments.

My point was directed to the tree-hugger, seen here in his natural environment, apparently on recess from Hogwarts...
http://onlyshot.ca/img/onlyshot.ca-trespassing_tree_hugger_aldershot_stadium_burlington.jpg
...who posted as thompsdk everywhere online yesterday. I only agree it is a "treed swamp".

For the record, this is the private property he's mincing about on, long-zoned for employment lands and Dr. Hoo is suddenly calling for preservation of this..?
http://onlyshot.ca/img/onlyshot.ca-aldershot_stadium_you_are_here-101231.jpg (http://onlyshot.ca)
...That's a highway ditch-- the upper sedimentary layers are likely 30 years of flattened foam McDonald's boxes.

Further down, as any Aldershot transit victim should agree, its been years of long detour, to a boxcar graveyard not a delightful pasture.

He can't just call every gap between a railway, a highway and a parking lot (this one is behind the local strip club, with high-power lines running across) worth protecting as "natural habitat"... Its not a natural place anymore.

bigguy1231

Dec 31, 2010, 9:08 PM

Kay Drage
]

from Hugh Macleod
http://hughmacleod.com/?p=708

I actually like that site. But the problem is its an old landfill and you cannot build on a landfill. Too much methane gas and cost prohibitive to remediate to the standard needed.

Then there are the Ticat requirements for parking and an "entertainment district". The land required just isn't there. I won't even get into the access problems.

bigguy1231

Dec 31, 2010, 9:13 PM

I guess your market research is scientific.

A few sports pages (entire sections), a few tv stations and a few radio stations totally devoted to sports isn't enough evidence?

Plus the millions of people that will watch the PanAm Games. oookay forget it all then. Why did we celebrate we got the Games?

You can fit IVW and Copps on Confed. But we'll never know because they never tried to examine it. Again your research is scientific because you seem to know everything. Next time I have a question about anything I'll just ask you.

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that most in our society don't care about sports.

Nobody in this country watches the Pan Ams. They are so insignifigant no broadcaster in this country broadcasts them. Even the last time they were in this country there was only minimal coverage on CBC.

realcity

Dec 31, 2010, 9:55 PM

realcity

Dec 31, 2010, 10:06 PM

[QUOTE=WentworthSt;5110253]Fair enough... But waterways are constantly worked around or over for developments.

My point was directed to the tree-hugger, seen here in his natural environment, apparently on recess from Hogwarts...
http://onlyshot.ca/img/onlyshot.ca-trespassing_tree_hugger_aldershot_stadium_burlington.jpg

hilarious. a forest of tree-weeds about 5 years old. Real old-growth. Looks like someone's backyard if they let nature do it's thing.

WentworthSt

Dec 31, 2010, 10:46 PM

....a forest of tree-weeds about 5 years old. Real old-growth. Looks like someone's backyard if they let nature do it's thing.

I don't want to misrepresent the facts either; there are older trees... But, of course: this is Ontario! 95% of it looks like the pictures we both posted-- highway-adjacent describes us-- its ALL open spaces and this spot is as ugly and post-industrial as we get.

But, you nailed it... It's behind Burlington's backyard, where nature has tried to still do its thing. I lived there for many years, moved into Hamilton for what I find is a better life.

And, as a "local resident"... This Aldershot spot is between the old-growth Toronto-Hamilton trainways and the preferred modern high-way of getting there. Paletta is giving us land under the power lines instead of CP trying to jack us $100 million to use a polluted unused train yard.

As for the "power line relocation costs"? What..? Its already on the grid, literally off "Hydro Lane", for the same reason it is a pointless transit-hub. The power, like everything else, already passes there in anticipation of commercial/industrial development in Aldershot that has been slow to arrive.

Now $100's of millions is trying to arrive. And I'm one person who has actually spent years as both a Burlington & Hamilton resident and hating the failure of always tending and attending Aldershot's useless GO stop.

Happy New Years everyone... And thanks for the best stadium discussion online anywhere for years.

bigguy1231

Dec 31, 2010, 11:01 PM

that's a ridiculous statement. 2-hour lineups to get to Buffalo to watch the world JUNIORS. Canada playing right now. watching while i type this.

Here's a few sports-only channels
ESPN (ESPN2, ESPN3, ESPNews)
SportsNet
TSN
NFL Network
Speed Network
NBA TV
Fox Soccer Channel
Golf Channel
Tennis Channel
NHL Channel
MLB Network
UFC practically every nite

I am watching the game as well, and Hockey is different, you know that. Hockey is a religion in this country and they still only get 10% of the population to watch a game like the one on TV right now.

Only 2 of the networks are actually Canadian. The rest are American. The culture here when it comes to sports is different.

My father always used to say in the States they'd get 100,000 people to pay $100 each to watch a guy take a dump in the middle of a field, if they thought it was a sport.

BCTed

Dec 31, 2010, 11:35 PM

I am watching the game as well, and Hockey is different, you know that. Hockey is a religion in this country and they still only get 10% of the population to watch a game like the one on TV right now.

Only 2 of the networks are actually Canadian. The rest are American. The culture here when it comes to sports is different.

My father always used to say in the States they'd get 100,000 people to pay $100 each to watch a guy take a dump in the middle of a field, if they thought it was a sport.

bigguy, I am beginning to wonder where you are going with your whole sports-are-not-a-big-deal-in-Canada argument. Hockey is most certainly a sport. I don't know what the actual viewership of the World Juniors is, but 10% of the population watching anything would be huge.

All of the cited channels air in Canada even if they are not strictly Canadian. The list excludes the Score, TSN2, Sportsnet ONE. There are probably more sports-specific channels available than news-specific channels.

People pay attention to more than hockey. The Tiger-Cats generally manage to draw at least twenty thousand fans a game live. The entire province of Saskatchewan seems to be crazy about the Roughriders. The Blue Jays used to draw fifty thousand people a night. Up until recently, the Raptors were near the top of the NBA in attendance. Toronto FC are one of the biggest success stories in MLS. Two WrestleManias sold out the SkyDome. The UFC sells out in an instant in Montreal and Vancouver, and the biggest ever show is set for Toronto. The Olympics were just held in Vancouver.

Americans do like their sports, but 100,000 people would not pay $100 each to watch that in the middle of a field in the US. Many US-based NHL, NBA, MLB, and even NFL teams have plenty of unsold seats for most games. And this may go without saying, but not a single stadium or arena in any of those leagues even has capacity for 100K people.

I am not sure what the crux of the argument is here. What is your point?

bigguy1231

Dec 31, 2010, 11:44 PM

bigguy, I am beginning to wonder where you are going with your whole sports-are-not-a-big-deal-in-Canada argument. Hockey is most certainly a sport. I don't know what the actual viewership of the World Juniors is, but 10% of the population watching anything would be huge.

All of the cited channels air in Canada even if they are not strictly Canadian. The list excludes the Score, TSN2, Sportsnet ONE. There are probably more sports-specific channels available than news-specific channels.

People pay attention to more than hockey. The Tiger-Cats generally manage to draw at least twenty thousand fans a game live. The entire province of Saskatchewan seems to be crazy about the Roughriders. The Blue Jays used to draw fifty thousand people a night. Up until recently, the Raptors were near the top of the NBA in attendance. Toronto FC are one of the biggest success stories in MLS. Two WrestleManias sold out the SkyDome. The UFC sells out in an instant in Montreal and Vancouver, and the biggest ever show is set for Toronto. The Olympics were just held in Vancouver.

Americans do like their sports, but 100,000 people would not pay $100 each to watch that in the middle of a field in the US. Many US-based NHL, NBA, MLB, and even NFL teams have plenty of unsold seats for most games.

I am not sure what the crux of the argument is here. What is your point?

My point is sports despite what many think, just isn't that important to most people.

My point about the game on TV today is there to illustrate that it isn't that important. If 10% are watching the game that means 90% are not. The 10% might be a huge number for tv, but it is still only 10%.

dennis1

Jan 2, 2011, 3:49 AM

sports are not as big in canada as they are in the US.

Sidenote. I see so many against the NFL in Toronto. But these same people will support the NYC based NHL. With 24 american teams and a US comissioner. Why?

dennis1

Jan 2, 2011, 4:11 AM

Burlington is actually considered a suburb of Hamilton by Stats Canada.

True but Burlington associates more with Toronto now.

flar

Jan 2, 2011, 4:45 AM

True but Burlington associates more with Toronto now.

A growing association with Toronto for sure, but Burlington should really be named "New Hamilton" because that's basically what it is. A new city built beside the old one. If anything, Burlington associates with Toronto because it's trying to disassociate with Hamilton and its negative brand.

Berklon

Jan 2, 2011, 6:11 PM

Sidenote. I see so many against the NFL in Toronto. But these same people will support the NYC based NHL. With 24 american teams and a US comissioner. Why?

They're against the NFL in Toronto because they fear it'll kill the CFL in Ontario.

dennis1

Jan 2, 2011, 6:58 PM

They're against the NFL in Toronto because they fear it'll kill the CFL in Ontario.

That ship sailed years ago. When the Argos were winning they didn't sell out.

On top of that, the other 99 percent of the time Western Canada Bashes Toronto, why should they do anything for them.

They should be worried about Fehr killing the NHL in western canada(Yes the cap will be gone in 2013)

dennis1

Jan 2, 2011, 6:59 PM

A growing association with Toronto for sure, but Burlington should really be named "New Hamilton" because that's basically what it is. A new city built beside the old one. If anything, Burlington associates with Toronto because it's trying to disassociate with Hamilton and its negative brand.

Wouldn't you after this latest fiasco?

bigguy1231

Jan 2, 2011, 8:54 PM

Wouldn't you after this latest fiasco?

Burlington has it's own fiasco's to worry about. Namely the pier and the arts centre. They are in no position to critisize Hamilton.

Berklon

Jan 2, 2011, 9:19 PM

That ship sailed years ago. When the Argos were winning they didn't sell out.

Yes, but they also equate the death of the CFL in Ontario as the death of the CFL overall. 8 teams feels too small as it is, imagine if Toronto and Hamilton were to fold. It would also leave the league with an absence of the biggest market in Canada - Southern Ontario.

dennis1

Jan 3, 2011, 12:40 AM

Burlington has it's own fiasco's to worry about. Namely the pier and the arts centre. They are in no position to critisize Hamilton.

True but perception is everything unfortuneatly.

dennis1

Jan 3, 2011, 12:41 AM

Yes, but they also equate the death of the CFL in Ontario as the death of the CFL overall. 8 teams feels too small as it is, imagine if Toronto and Hamilton were to fold. It would also leave the league with an absence of the biggest market in Canada - Southern Ontario.

And why is that our fault Berklon. You can't force people to like what they don't like IMO.

realcity

Jan 3, 2011, 5:27 AM

okay you made me do this
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/theshawsphotos/confed-with-stadiums.gif?t=1293770494
repost Confed Park

you know just build something suitable on West Harbour.... like maybe perhaps.... the damn SETTING SAIL PLAN.

realcity

Jan 3, 2011, 5:29 AM

We've lost so much to Burlington already. What gives if we lose one of our last things that makes us a real city and not a suburb of Toronto.

Burlington's waterfront is kickin our ass, it's embarrassing, even with their pier disaster. It will get fixed, and they will have something that kills WH and CF together.

Jon Dalton

Jan 3, 2011, 5:29 PM

Looks like Aldershot's 15 minutes are up.

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/308334--aldershot-stadium-in-the-balance-goldring-warns

Aldershot stadium in the balance, Goldring warns

BURLINGTON Mayor Rick Goldring admits there is a chance the proposed Aldershot stadium plan could be dead by the end of the week.

Several of the seven-member Burlington council, which includes three rookies, are publicly skittish about an Angelo Paletta-led consortium's bid to offer $30 million and a prime piece of real estate for a Pan Am stadium.

What worries councillors is a Feb. 1 deadline to choose a site, the size of the financial contribution council will be asked for and how much the city-owned stadium's operating costs might be.

Goldring is hoping to convince his council on Thursday to seek a staff report on the stadium issue. But even the rookie mayor admits his councillors have valid concerns.

“This is not a hill for me to die on as mayor,” Goldring said of the proposal.

The rookie Burlington mayor would like to have city staff report on the issue. But if the majority of his seven-member council believes the time frame is too short and rejects the call for the staff report, so be it.

“There is that possibility,” Goldring allowed.

“I think all the concerns are extremely valid and I see my role as mayor to bring information to council and to the community in the best way I can and see what happens when we have open discussion about it.”

Goldring said the timeline and funding are challenging issues.

“This is what has been dealt to us and we can either decide to look at it or not. It's not going to effect Burlington negatively if we say no to even looking at it,” the Burlington mayor said.

Meanwhile, Halton Regional Chairman Gary Carr, who met with the Tiger-Cats on the proposal last week along with Goldring and Burlington Councillor Rick Craven, believes the football club is serious about pursuing an Aldershot stadium.

And Carr, who believes the project would bring positive exposure to Halton, said regional staff would be able to assist with the planning and economic development reports on the issue.

“There is no doubt that sports franchises do put you on the map in terms of regions,” he said.

While HostCo, the Pan Am organizing committee, wants a site by Feb. 1, Carr believes there is sufficient time.

Craven said Burlington council will take the pitch seriously. “We will but there are a lot of ifs, ands or buts here,” he said.

kpeters@thespec.com

905-526-3388

SteelTown

Jan 3, 2011, 5:30 PM

I was told you can't build anything along the waterfront. There needs to be a large cushion space from the water.

dennis1

Jan 3, 2011, 6:41 PM

QC City......

realcity

Jan 3, 2011, 6:51 PM

I was told I could do anything I wanted to

There's too many 'can't do's' in this city

SteelTown

Jan 4, 2011, 12:52 AM

Burlington stadium for Ticats ‘virtually impossible’

The mayor of Burlington, Ont. says it is highly unlikely his city will approve plans to build a stadium by next month even though Toronto 2015, the Pan-Am Games organizing committee, has set Feb. 1 as the deadline for a location to be determined.

“I would say it’s virtually impossible,” said Rick Goldring, who was sworn in as mayor last month. “I wouldn’t say it’s completely impossible, but I would say it’s virtually impossible.

“That’s a very challenging time frame and for us to really analyze something specific in that short period of time is a major, major challenge and it puts the odds of trying to achieve something longer for sure.”

Toronto 2015 CEO Ian Troop believes his group has no choice, but to stand by the deadline.

Read more: http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/01/03/burlington-stadium-for-ticats-virtually-impossible/#ixzz1A1VxsAfD

dennis1

Jan 4, 2011, 5:12 AM

So what will the CFL do now?

drpgq

Jan 4, 2011, 5:27 AM

So what will the CFL do now?

Keep the Cats playing in Ivor Wynne?

dennis1

Jan 4, 2011, 5:47 PM

Keep the Cats playing in Ivor Wynne?

for how long?

drpgq

Jan 4, 2011, 8:16 PM

for how long?

Indefinitely? I think Ivor Wynne could last a while longer.

SteelTown

Jan 5, 2011, 11:12 PM

Sounds like Scott Mitchell has said it's Aldershot or nothing.

markbarbera

Jan 6, 2011, 12:22 AM

Not a big surprise, seeing as our amazingly inept council has failed to resolve a location acceptable to all parties involved. Hate to say it, but I called this a year ago when council refused to research a feasible 'Plan B' location for the now-defunct Barton and Tiffany proposal. If they performed their due diligence back then we wouldn't be behind the eight-ball now.

Personally I think the Aldershot location would work, although I'd rather see the infrastrucutre investment and the related economic activity from the Ticats remain within the city boundaries (remember a few months ago Tourism Hamilton identified that the Ticats account for 25% of all tourism-based revenue for the city). Bit of a moot point though, seeing as there isn't enough time to bring the Aldershot proposal together.

SteelTown

Jan 6, 2011, 2:36 AM

Burlington share of stadium cost: $0

BURLINGTON A Burlington Pan Am Stadium consortium has proposed a $90 to $120 million stadium for Aldershot that would not require a municipal contriwbution from the City of Burlington.

That was the offer Tiger-Cat president Scott Mitchell and consortium partner Angelo Paletta made to Burlington Mayor Rick Goldring in a 90-minute private meeting Wednesday.

“I think we tried to provide a solution that mitigates any financial risk or obligations to the City of Burlington,” Mitchell said following the meeting.

Mitchell said as part of the deal, the private consortium would manage and operate the 22,000 seat stadium for the municipality.

“We have tried to give them a compelling business case,” he said. “What we are proposing involves no financial contribution from the City of Burlington.”

“We have tried to give them a compelling business case that will result in tens of millions in revenue for the city and region.”

And Burlington appears ready to play ball.

“How can we not look at this?” Goldring said afterwards. “They have come with an offer we can’t refuse to look at.”

Goldring briefed his council after the meeting and believes he has sufficient support to have city staff explore the stadium offer. And he said that if resolution to do that passes, he will be on the telephone to Pan Am organizers and the province to seek an extension to the Feb. 1 deadline for a site selection.

The proposal depends on the Pan Am organizing committee providing $70 to $100 million in funding that was to go to a Hamilton stadium, before Hamilton council ran out of sites.

Goldring said Burlington would be responsible for the infrastructure needs for the area but acknowledged the city would be paying for that in any event, stadium or no stadium.

“Clearly this is a great opportunity for the city to investigate,” he said. “This is something we have to strongly consider.”

Asked why Hamilton would be asked for $45 million for a stadium and Burlington might get there without any contribution, Goldring said it was his understanding there were bigger challenges involved with some of the other Hamilton sites.

Mitchell had stated previously that the city would have to make a financial contribution to the project.

The huge sweetener comes from Paletta, who told the mayor and city staffers that the stadium would be the catalyst to kick start more than $100 million in development on the adjacent 125 acres of land he owns.

“I think it was a good meeting. I think we have alleviated a lot of concern on the financial side,” he added.

Paletta, who is the key figure in the Burlington consortium, is offering the private land as part of its portion of a $30 million contribution for the project, said the development would include a hotel, restaurants, retail and a training centre for sports excellence.

“It’s huge,” Paletta said of the associated development, most of which would begin alongside the stadium construction. “A lot of it will go hand-in-hand.”

Paletta said he has already received overtures from investors ready to proceed with the development should the stadium receive the green light.

Mitchell and Paletta said the next step belongs to city council. They hope council will give a staff direction Thursday to explore the stadium project.

Mitchell, Tiger-Cats vice-president Doug Rye and Paletta, president of Paletta International Inc., met with Goldring, his chief of staff Frank McKeown, city manager Roman Martiuk and Burlington Councillor Rick Craven.

Burlington council is set to meet Thursday morning to consider Goldring’s recommendation to have city staff explore the Aldershot stadium issue.

Martiuk has suggested if the recommendation wins support, he would report back in two weeks on a list of questions the city would seek answers to on the stadium.

But timing could be crucial. The Pan Am host committee has insisted the stadium site must be settled by Feb. 1.

And Hamilton council is expected to revisit recommending Confederation Park as the stadium location when it meets again Wednesday.

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/309442--burlington-share-of-stadium-cost-0

flar

Jan 6, 2011, 3:14 AM

As soon as you cross the magical boundary between Burlington and Hamilton, the investors are lined up.

Jon D

Jan 6, 2011, 3:55 AM

As soon as you cross the magical boundary between Burlington and Hamilton, the investors are lined up.

I really don't see why? Aldershot's got nothing on downtown Hamilton. I was there on NYE switching from a bus to a train, and my girlfriend, as an impartial observer to the entire stadium saga, made the comment "it smells like a field here".

matt602

Jan 6, 2011, 4:50 AM

Honestly, let Burlington take this crap away from us. Lets just hope council will have the brains to drop the Confed. Park thing and focus on our own scalable stadium at the West Harbor. This really is a gift in disguise.

bigguy1231

Jan 6, 2011, 9:22 AM

When was Scott Mitchell put in charge of the Hostco purse strings. Someone from Hostco or the province needs to slap him down.

The issue of the funding was already clarified by Ian Troop. The money is Hamiltons as long as City council wants a stadium. All city council has to do is vote in favour of the smaller stadium at the West Harbour and the Ticats are on their own as far as funding a stadium in Aldershot.

If I was a Burlington councillor I would want something in writing from the Ticats before I agree to anything. As it is now it's all just smoke and mirrors. The Ticats do not have any authority to commit government money to any stadium project no matter where it is.

markbarbera

Jan 6, 2011, 12:09 PM

Council was given the option of a smaller stadium at Barton and Tiffany last August when they went with that site without the Ticats on board and wisely gave Hostco a pass on that and sought out an alternative site for a full size stadium. Through a series of bad decisions Hamilton has managed to all but allow a golden opportunity slip out of its hands.

Honestly, there is absolutely no need for another 6000-seat stadium anywhere in Hamilton, certainly not in the West Harbour area. It would be a terrible waste of money. Can we please move on with the official plan of residential and supporting commercial development for West Harbour?

At this stage of the game, Hamilton council just needs to throw in the towel and recommend to Hostco that the Aldershot location be considered in lieu of a Hamilton location. Let's cut our losses and focus on the velodrome venue before we end up losing that facility too.

markbarbera

Jan 6, 2011, 12:20 PM

I really don't see why? Aldershot's got nothing on downtown Hamilton. I was there on NYE switching from a bus to a train, and my girlfriend, as an impartial observer to the entire stadium saga, made the comment "it smells like a field here".

The answer is in your girlfriend's observation. The field is a large parcel of land with one owner wanting to develop it. Paletta is offering $30 mil plus the land for the stadium because he has over 100 acres of land next to it that the Palettas can develop into a Sports and Entertainment district, making his private investment in the stadium worthwhile. Hamilton simply does not have a parcel of land like that available - that it wants to consider. The same sort of development could have fit on Confed Park, but apparently we prefer go karts, teenage drunken bonfire parties and a underused wave pool to a multimillion dollar waterfront development opportunity.

drpgq

Jan 6, 2011, 2:37 PM

I'm still skeptical about this costing Burlington 0 dollars. Every site that Hamilton looked at ended up with a ton of extra costs. I would trust a developer about as much as a used car salesman.

As a fan, I'm also wondering about the Cats due diligence on their fan base especially the ones who are actually attending. I have season tickets now, but if it moved to Aldershot I might consider downgrading to a flex pack. Labour Day in the middle of some Aldershot field just wouldn't have the same atmosphere. I'm sure they've done research where suburbanites who don't go to the game now have said they would if it wasn't in the lower city, but it is pretty easy to say that over the phone when it costs you nothing, rather than paying the cash and having to endure some traffic inconvenience no matter where the stadium ends up. Add in the possibility of future 3 and 16 seasons when you've pissed off some of their hardcore Hamilton base and you're left with some temperamental suburbanites.

markbarbera

Jan 6, 2011, 3:13 PM

I'm still skeptical about this costing Burlington 0 dollars. Every site that Hamilton looked at ended up with a ton of extra costs.

That's mainly because every site considered by Hamilton had significant costs of acquisition and/or remediation associated with it, costs that are not present at the proposed Aldershot location.

SteelTown

Jan 6, 2011, 3:54 PM

Ti Cats are leaving Hamilton so might as well build a smaller stadium, demolish Ivor Wynee, sell the land, money collected use towards upgrading the stadium. The new stadium can serve high school football, a soccer team, a lacrosse team and amphitheatre.

From my understanding if we go ahead with a smaller scalable stadium HostCo will cover the entire cost.

flar

Jan 6, 2011, 4:11 PM

Hamilton doesn't need a small stadium, especially at the West Harbour. It would be a total waste. Any larger events could use the almost brand new McMaster Stadium. Besides, what's wrong with Brian Timmis for high school and amateur sports? They could even demolish most of Ivor Wynne to make a smaller stadium suitable for those things.

SteelTown

Jan 6, 2011, 4:18 PM

Brian Timmis is old and outdated and surrounded with residential homes. Not suitable for an amphitheatre.

thurmas

Jan 6, 2011, 4:37 PM

Being from Winnipeg what I don't understand is why does Burlington pay nothing and Hamilton had to pay what $50-60 million. Also why is the latest proposal only seat 22,000 that is way too small. The ti-cats average over 23,000 just last year at Ivor Wynn. With a new stadium there is the novelty of a new facility which always draws more fans the first few years why would the ti-cats do this. If Bob Young was smarter he should have leaked this propsal to Burlington a few months ago so atleast they could study it in secret because Hamilton kept changing it's mind on sites. I was siding with Young for awhile but looking back I was wrong both sides have really messed this up. WH wouldn't have killed the ti-cats because of poor signage or parking they would have done well. The city though in it's indecision and waffling on various sites is also to blame.

markbarbera

Jan 6, 2011, 7:33 PM

Burlington council has voted 5-2 in favour of directing staff to report back on Aldershot stadium proposal. Burlington City Staff to present preliminary report on Jan 18.

Meanwhile, Hamilton Chamber of Commerce issues a 'call to action to it's membership to contact Hamilton Ciy Council and pressure them to keep the Ticats and Pan Am in the city instead of letting it slip away to Burlington.

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/309607--burlington-supports-stadium-report

Hear that whooshing sound? That's the sound of Hamilton's opportunity to shine during the Pan Am Games as well as a chance to gain a subsidized new CFL-grade stadium go swirling down the toilet.

realcity

Jan 6, 2011, 8:13 PM

From that location you can see the West Harbour... lol

realcity

Jan 6, 2011, 8:23 PM

Why is the AIC Stadium only 22,000? I hope it can be expanded to 32,000 or it will never host the Grey Cup.

Jon Dalton

Jan 6, 2011, 8:50 PM

I'm amazed anyone takes the Paletta / Mitchell offer at face value. It's numbers pulled out of someone's ass. Council voted to get a report which will consist of 'questions to be answered' meanwhile Hostco needs a firm commitment. Aldershot isn't the only shot, or even a long shot. It's just shot.

markbarbera

Jan 6, 2011, 9:08 PM

Will the Bulldogs follow the Ticats down the road?

Bulldogs could be persuaded to move to Aldershot

Don’t write off the Hamilton Bulldogs’ interest in a new arena in Aldershot just yet.

“If somebody approaches me and says we have a 9,000-seat building and would like an anchor tenant, of course I’d consider it,” says team owner Michael Andlauer.

As part of a proposed development that would include a new stadium for the Hamilton Tiger-Cats, Angelo Paletta has included an arena. Any such building would need a team of some kind.

Andlauer says he actually looked at the site a couple years ago when he was exploring the idea of building an arena in Burlington. With its proximity to the highway and the GO station, he calls it a “site of the future.”

Further, he says moving the team there wouldn’t go against his commitment to keep the team in the Hamilton area.

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/309918--bulldogs-could-be-persuaded-to-move-to-aldershot

dennis1

Jan 6, 2011, 9:19 PM

realcity

Jan 6, 2011, 10:07 PM

Will the Bulldogs follow the Ticats down the road?

holy crap!!! What's going on?????

matt602

Jan 6, 2011, 10:16 PM

holy crap!!! What's going on?????

They're testing the waters after seeing how easily the Tiger Cats were able to push city council around. If we had stood firm on the Ti-Cats and insisted upon West Harbor from day one, I guarantee the Bulldogs would have kept quiet. They are taking advantage of a weakness.

realcity

Jan 6, 2011, 10:27 PM

They're testing the waters after seeing how easily the Tiger Cats were able to push city council around. If we had stood firm on the Ti-Cats and insisted upon West Harbor from day one, I guarantee the Bulldogs would have kept quiet. They are taking advantage of a weakness.

o right another bluff. let's call this "bluff" too.

matt602

Jan 6, 2011, 10:29 PM

It's either a bluff or an incredible coincidence that they are saying so in the midst of what is going on.

I can guarantee they won't be any more successful in Burlington than they were in Hamilton. If anything worse, as they will be moving even closer into Leafs territory where the fan base is less likely to care about AHL hockey.

thurmas

Jan 6, 2011, 10:53 PM

If the bulldogs leave too that leaves the Hammer with no sport teams at all and a aging empty copps coliseum and ivor wynn. For a city over 700,000 that might be a first.

dennis1

Jan 6, 2011, 11:00 PM

real city this burlington deadl will not get done, its already Jan 06.

BCTed

Jan 7, 2011, 2:29 AM

City Hall should have been moved to Burlington instead of being renovated.

fenwick16

Jan 7, 2011, 2:35 AM

I think it would be great if Burlington and Hamilton just amalgamated. When I first lived in Hamilton in the early 80's most people considered it to be a suburb of Hamilton. But maybe now more people in Burlington commute to Mississauga and Toronto, than Hamilton. I have mixed feelings on the Aldershot site. It is a good location but I wouldn't consider it to be closely connected to Hamilton either sentimentally or physically.

flar

Jan 7, 2011, 2:56 AM

Amalgamation would have been the smart thing a long time ago, and almost did happen, but could never happen now. Many people in Burlington moved there to escape Hamilton. Over the last thirty years, the majority of business and industry has located in Burlington. It's the low tax, no baggage version of Hamilton.

I can't think of another sizable Canadian metro that has had its central core sucked dry by its suburbs to the extent Hamilton has.

It comes down to a class issue, the economic divisions are too stark. Many of Hamilton's core neighbourhoods have median household incomes less then $40,000 while the Mountain, Dundas, Ancaster, Flamborough, Stoney Creek, Aldershot and Burlington are all over $70,000.

realcity

Jan 7, 2011, 3:14 AM

City Hall should have been moved to Burlington instead of being renovated.

we'd probably be better-off if Burlington amalgamated FlamCasterDasWestdale, and the rest of Hamilton turned into a new municipality called "Lincoln" with Grimsby, West Lincoln, Beamsville and Vineland.. all the way to Niagara Region's border.

And give Glanbrook to Haldimand. Get rid of this dying city, and our 20-year member, re-elected council that buried a once great city.

Everyone is predicting that soon we'll be done with steel-making. Our lower city is losing population... ala Detroit, Buffalo, and Cleveland. We only look good on census because of our fringe towns. I'd like to see a census of the former lower city, that would pretty much say what's going on.

Boarded-up buildings are happening on Barton and around the Rheem factory (thanks to Fred buying them on our behalf). The crap hole of our IV and Main East downtown is a murder-zone and former quality stores now sell dope paraphernalia and porn. Where is World of Books? That was the best newsstand and magstand in the City. I think it sells bongs now.

It's been like 5 years since the OPP closed the SandBar and the City still owns.... still vacant. Who do you think will buy the Connaught then? It could be for sale for $1 and I doubt anyone would buy it unless the City offered 10 years of tax-free incentives. A Connaught buer would get hit with 2 years tax arrears from a bankrupt corp and instantly hit with out $150,000 in property tax. No One will ever buy the Connaught unless they get a sweetheart deal like the Lister.

This city is dying a slow death. I wish it wasn'. Sorry to say, I don't and haven't seen any improvement since 1990.

realcity

Jan 7, 2011, 3:22 AM

I would like to add, the largest employers in Cleveland (USA's 3rd poorest city, after Buffalo and Detroit) are healthcare and Walmart. Walmart! can you believe that? That's only because healthcare is private industry, or else Walmart would be the #1 private employer.

Seems like Hamilton is heading that way.

fenwick16

Jan 7, 2011, 4:01 AM

This city is dying a slow death. I wish it wasn'. Sorry to say, I don't and haven't seen any improvement since 1990.

This is why Bob Young should have encouraged the city to go with the West Harbour site (or the city might have given more consideration to the Confederation Park site since it is also within the older urban core). Locating new development in newer parts of the city will continue to destroy the urban core. Would property tax have been higher at the West Harbour location and were the Tigercats responsible for the stadium property tax?

Jon Dalton

Jan 7, 2011, 6:40 AM

Will the Bulldogs follow the Ticats down the road?

What road? The road to nowhere or the road that doesn't exist? I'm sure you realize at least by now, that Burlington has no chance in hell.

bigguy1231

Jan 7, 2011, 8:21 AM

Did anyone care to read some of the comments made by Ian Troop today. The Burlington proposal has the same deadline as Hamilton's. The city of Hamilton has first right of refusal. If the city of Hamilton goes with the smaller stadium the Burlington proposal is dead.

Troop also said that after Feb 1 the only proposals that would be considered would be from the 3 plan B cities already under consideration. Markham, Brampton and Mississauga. Burlington will not be considered.

markbarbera

Jan 7, 2011, 11:05 AM

What road? The road to nowhere or the road that doesn't exist? I'm sure you realize at least by now, that Burlington has no chance in hell.

As I had said earlier I am doubtful that there is enough time for Burlington to pull this together by the Feb 1 deadline. In all fairness, Ian Troop is just about as adamant that Feb 1 is an absolute deadline as he has been for every other deadline he has set in the past.

Planning and costing for an Aldershot location can be further on than anyone thinks. It is important to remember that discussions between Paletta and the Ticats have been going on quietly since last August when Hamilton council reaffirmed the doomed Barton and Tiffany site for the stadium. That is plenty of time for conceptual plans and costing to be done. Whatever info that has been done will no doubt be passed on to Burlington City Staff for their preliminary report.

There is the outside chance that Hamilton can pull it together and present a site like Confed Park prior to the deadline (granted this is less likely to happen than the Aldershot location). And there is the chance that Hamilton could scuttle the Aldershot plan by going with a 6K-seat stadium, but this again is unlikely given that infrastructure like that has already been rejected by Hamilton council as being an unnecessary white elephant (not to mention making a decision that forces the Ticats to move further afield than Aldershot would be cutting off one's nose to spite one's face).

Any way this thing turns out, it's pretty clear that what should have been a clear-cut opportunity for the city to replace aging infrastructure and retain its only professional sports team has been squandered by our lovable blundering councillors.

bigguy1231

Jan 7, 2011, 5:18 PM

I don't know if any of you heard Ian Troop on Bill Kelly's show this morning. He basically said if the city of Hamilton wants the smaller scalable stadium at the West Harbour then thats what we will get. He also said the smaller stadium would be fully funded by Hostco, if I understood him correctly.

As well he stated in no uncetain terms that the Ticats wants and needs are not his concern. All he cares about are the Pan Am games. If he had been this clear all along this discussion would have been over and the planning process for the West Harbour would have been underway.

SteelTown

Jan 7, 2011, 5:22 PM

The City could use the $40 or so millions from the Future Fund to upgrade the stadium themselves. Have Hostco pay the entire cost of a 6,000 stadium and the rest the city could upgrade it.

bigguy1231

Jan 7, 2011, 5:57 PM

The City could use the $40 or so millions from the Future Fund to upgrade the stadium themselves. Have Hostco pay the entire cost of a 6,000 stadium and the rest the city could upgrade it.

They could do that or they could use it on the velodrome or for some other community project. It opens up a number of options.

To be honest, I don't think the smaller stadium is ever going to happen. Now that this option has come to light with Hostco onboard we may see the Ticats start to change their position on the WH. They have nowhere else to turn. It's either deal with the city or find some other sucker willing to build them a stadium and we all know there isn't exactly a lineup of suitors willing to do that.

markbarbera

Jan 7, 2011, 6:31 PM

To be honest, I don't think the smaller stadium is ever going to happen. Now that this option has come to light with Hostco onboard we may see the Ticats start to change their position on the WH. They have nowhere else to turn. It's either deal with the city or find some other sucker willing to build them a stadium and we all know there isn't exactly a lineup of suitors willing to do that.

Right. In fact I have insider information that Bob Young and Scott Mitchell are planning a news conference to announce their intentions to return to WH, which will also be attended by Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

Never. Going. To. Happen.

Berklon

Jan 7, 2011, 6:41 PM

Never. Going. To. Happen.

That may be the case. The question is, where do the Ticats turn to then?

realcity

Jan 7, 2011, 6:54 PM

Troop did not use the word "scaleable" he said "community sized".

BCTed

Jan 7, 2011, 7:05 PM

Troop did not use the word "scaleable" he said "community sized".

I can't really see a 6,000 seat stadium being scaled up to 30,000 seats anyway.

dennis1

Jan 7, 2011, 7:40 PM

NHL to burlington?

Jon D

Jan 7, 2011, 7:42 PM

Troop did not use the word "scaleable" he said "community sized".

I thought it had to be scaleable to 15,000 for the games? And then after the games are over the temporary seating would be removed leaving only the 6,500 capacity or whatever permanent structure.

I could be wrong here as I have no source, I just feel like I read this somewhere at some point. Someone back me up or shoot me down if you know for sure.

BCTed

Jan 7, 2011, 8:18 PM

I thought it had to be scaleable to 15,000 for the games? And then after the games are over the temporary seating would be removed leaving only the 6,500 capacity or whatever permanent structure.

I could be wrong here as I have no source, I just feel like I read this somewhere at some point. Someone back me up or shoot me down if you know for sure.

Anything can be scalable to 15,000 seats. You can scale an empty field from nothing up to 15,000 temporary seats.

mattgrande

Jan 7, 2011, 8:31 PM

Not sure about this, but I think 15,000 was required for Track & Field, but only 5500 - 6000 is needed for soccer.

bigguy1231

Jan 7, 2011, 9:00 PM

Right. In fact I have insider information that Bob Young and Scott Mitchell are planning a news conference to announce their intentions to return to WH, which will also be attended by Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

Never. Going. To. Happen.

Never say never.

bigguy1231

Jan 7, 2011, 9:06 PM

Troop did not use the word "scaleable" he said "community sized".

It doesn't really matter. If the city decides it is going to be scaleable then the city will have to pay for anything over and above what it would cost for a community sized stadium. Since the city already owns the land required our contribution to the smaller stadium will be $0. That gives us the FF monies, that can be spent on making it scaleable.

dennis1

Jan 7, 2011, 9:10 PM

http://www.insidehalton.com/community/burlington/article/926437

Paletta says he can bring the NHL here.,

Jon D

Jan 7, 2011, 9:37 PM

Anything can be scalable to 15,000 seats. You can scale an empty field from nothing up to 15,000 temporary seats.

You could scale an empty field from nothing to 15,000, but it would require a decent foundation to accept all the gravity loading. So that foundation would be designed and built with the permanent structure, be put in use for the temporary seating during the games, and then available after the game for future expansion of the stadium. That is ofcourse only if the foundation didn't try and move to burlington at some point, along with everythign else!:haha:

But anyway, i think Matt may be right in that the scaleability feature perhaps was a requirement for track and field only. Whoops.

mattgrande

Jan 7, 2011, 10:25 PM

http://www.insidehalton.com/community/burlington/article/926437

Paletta says he can bring the NHL here.,

Balsillie said the same thing.

bigguy1231

Jan 7, 2011, 11:35 PM

Quote from Burlington Post “I really hope Hamilton figures out a way to have a Pan Am stadium in Hamilton, because it would save us all a lot of time and aggravation.” - Mayor Rick Goldring

matt602

Jan 8, 2011, 12:59 AM

Hah. Nice.

SteelTown

Jan 8, 2011, 1:44 AM

How the west was reborn

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/319112--how-the-west-was-reborn

A last-minute pitch to build a 5,000 to 6,000 seat stadium at the west harbour is gaining traction with Hamilton councillors.

Several councillors say they are open to a smaller venue at the contentious west-harbour location – with or without the Tiger Cats – as a way to preserve the city’s role in the Pan Am Games.

However, Mayor Bob Bratina wants nothing to do with a “community-sized” stadium. And Ticats president Scott Mitchell still says west harbour is not an option and Aldershot represents the best and final option to keep the franchise in the area.

The scuttlebutt among councillors over the past few days is that a smaller stadium at west harbour would be less expensive, could be used by the community groups currently playing in Ivor Wynne stadium and would maintain Hamilton’s role in the Games.

It’s a sharp turnaround from the last time the option of building a scaled-back west harbour stadium was presented in August. At that time, councillors called the plan a “non-starter” and said they'd be “laughed out of town” if they chose that plan.

Councillors Brian McHattie, Bernie Morelli, Scott Duvall, Terry Whitehead and Lloyd Ferguson all say they would consider a smaller stadium at west harbour. Ferguson stipulated that a west harbour stadium would have to be “built in such a way that it could be expanded to 25,000 seats” to gain his support. Several others say they support the plan in principle, but need more information before making a final decision.

Whitehead and Duvall are commissioning a citywide poll to take a public temperature about the stadium. The cost, results and polling firm will all be released once the poll is finished, Whitehead said.

Councillors say the change back to west harbour is being led by Brad Clark, who has acknowledged he had several conversations with his colleagues over the past several days, but said “all of those conversations were confidential” and that it was premature to discuss those details.

Mayor Bob Bratina and Councilors Sam Merulla and Tom Jackson oppose the west harbour plan. Jackson says he still supports Confederation Park as the best option, while Merulla wants to forgo building a stadium in Hamilton altogether. Both noted that building a west harbour stadium could force the Ticats to leave the city.

“In essence, Hamilton is voting to evict the Hamilton Tiger Cats,” Merulla said.

Bratina said if Hamilton can’t find a Pan Am Stadium site, he would prefer to see an Aldershot stadium proceed. Other councillors either couldn’t be reached or didn’t return the Spectator’s calls.

Ian Troop, CEO of the Toronto 2015 games, said he was expecting Hamilton to decide on a location for a 25,000 seat stadium. However, he suggested Hamilton has the option to go smaller.

“It’s up to Hamilton to decide what it wants to talk about,” he said.

If a Hamilton site can’t be found by the Feb. 1 deadline, Troop says he will look not to Burlington but to their other contingency plans in Brampton, Markham or Mississauga.

If Aldershot is rejected, Mitchell said the Tiger-Cats would plan to stay at Ivor Wynne Stadium until 2014 before relocating to a new stadium built in another municipality.