Tim Hortons Field | 40m | ? | Complete

[Berklon]

There was a sense of resignation and frustration around the council table this morning as officials from Infrastructure Ontario presented some of the details of the new stadium. It will have 22,500 seats (compared to Ivor Wynne's 30,000)[b] and 180 parking spots (compared to the 400 currently available at the Cannon Street stadium).

I can remember when Bob Young insisted he wanted the "driveway to driveway" experience for the fans. 180 parking sports, huh. You can provide that ANYWHERE in this city.

Bob Young is an idiot and anyone who believed his nonsense a few years ago is fool.

The construction costs for Hamilton's Pan Am stadium will be $119.1 million, less than the $145 million budget. However, city staff say that "soft costs" like contingence funds and architects will eat up the remaining $35 million.

So basically this will cost 145 million. Really? THIS stadium which is bland, cheap-looking, very basic and with low capacity seating? 145 million? Really? Seriously?
I guess the laws of economics work differently in Winnipeg who got MUCH more bang for their stadium buck.

[go_leafs_go02]

Seen a great comment saying that Hamilton was purchasing Winnipeg's Old Stadium they're moving out at the end of this year, dismantling and rebuilding it in Hamilton. Same uninspired design.

Still can't believe how badly Hamilton's legacy will be tarnished with this barebones, dated stadium that looks almost identical to the old Ivor Wynne.

[BCTed]

Seen a great comment saying that Hamilton was purchasing Winnipeg's Old Stadium they're moving out at the end of this year, dismantling and rebuilding it in Hamilton. Same uninspired design.

Still can't believe how badly Hamilton's legacy will be tarnished with this barebones, dated stadium that looks almost identical to the old Ivor Wynne.

I actually prefer the look of the "old" Ivor Wynne.

[BCTed]

I hope that this stadium holds at least 30K or so and does not get built on the cheap.

The above quote is from the sixth post in this thread (November 7, 2009). It looks as though both components of my hope have been dashed.




25K seats would just be too small. Of the 54 regular season games played outside of Hamilton and Montreal (where capacity is only 20K), only six had attendances of less than 25K. The smallest crowd in the Western conference was 26,885.

Also, while the $150MM number that is being bandied about sounds like it would get the city something more substantial than BMO Field, it still sounds quite a bit on the light side ----the cost of the new retractable roof at BC Place alone will be literally more than triple that. A new stadium would likely be in use for many decades --- if this thing is going to get built, it should get built properly.

The above quote is from the 32nd post in this thread. The new stadium will not even have the 25K seats. And it does not sound as if this thing will "get built properly" in my eyes.

Three years of hoping beyond hope have gone for naught. Bummer.

[matt602]

Yeah, that's pretty much the exact design I was expecting. Uninspired, boring and pointless. Could have sworn the reason the Ti-Cats didn't want to build at the West Harbour was traffic and parking concerns... now we see this place is only going to have 180 parking spots. I don't mean to drag up that whole debate again but now we really see how completely and utterly pointless it was. It would have cost them less to build there because the Ti-Cats would be able to continue playing at the current location until the new stadium was complete. I'm sure that site could have also accommodated more parking.

[flar]

they might as well just renovate Ivor Wynne instead of spending a bunch of $$ to build something worse

[trebor204]

Link to the Stadium Site

http://www.newstadiumnewexperience.com/

[TMW]

I agree at first glance I was shocked. The stadium does lack creativity and looks like a Div II college stadium.

But I like it.

They only had so much funding to play with, and it really suits the need right now.

Positives:

- Sightlines

- NO TRACK (Anybody else incredibly surprised about this?)

- Yellow seats

- Easily expandle (Bob Young seems set on this happening in the near future)

Not to mention how well this facility will look on TV. It reminds me of a mini Heinz Field, I love it.

I mean c'mon, as much as I loved the charm of Ivor Wynne.. this new stadium will be a GIANT upgrade.

[TMW]

I kinda like the fact the location will be unchanged as well, so much history. I hope the name stays, with a similar look to the original this place will be a shrine.

[Berklon]

Link to the Stadium Site

http://www.newstadiumnewexperience.com/

Jeez, even their website looks cheap and amateurish.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Jeez, even their website looks cheap and amateurish.

So I'm just asking - how would you make the stadium design more interesting - in place of the design they came up with?

Oh - and within their measly 140million budget?

[Geebrr]

Outside of the bright yellow seats, I am not seeing any similarities to Heinz Field.

I am just curious as to what others see those similarities to be?

That said, it should give some stability to a franchise who struggles to break even. This is a positive for Hamilton, and the league itself.

[Rottie]

I agree it is a positive for the league and for Hamilton. The CFL needs Hamilton.

Wish the capacity was more in the 25 to 30,000 range to give you more of the 13th man advantage but then the seats would be narrower to accomodate more of them. Oh well, maybe they took into account future permanent expansion?

I quite like the party deck/plaza area. That is unique and will show well on tv.

I'm having a hard time believing this is going to be built in a year and a half. Winnipegs stadium was supposed to be ready for 2012 and now it's ready for next season. a whole years difference.

As for comparisons with other stadiums I'm seeing a similarity with Edmontons Commonwealth Stadium except it's only a third the size and the corners don't bowl around.

[fenwick16]

I like this image from the Tiger-Cats website (it is a screen-capture from the video - http://newstadiumnewexperience.com/main/#)

I like this stadium. My only complaint is that it doesn't have a partial roof covering part of the upper tiers. My idea of a great stadium is one like this with both grandstands the same (the largest side) and a partial roof (with an overhang of 50 - 60 feet, which would cover about 20 rows of seats). I can understand the complaints of it being to small; having more seats near the corners would be nice.

http://imageshack.us/a/img685/9928/newpanamstadiuminhamilt.jpg

[Geebrr]

I hope it is well lit in the endzones. I am not a huge fan of those stand alone lights in the corners.

[Berklon]

So I'm just asking - how would you make the stadium design more interesting - in place of the design they came up with?

Oh - and within their measly 140million budget?

Probably can't do much differently and keep it within that budget - but that's part of the problem... they're spending a decent amount of money to come up with essentially a newer version of Ivor Wynne. To me that's a bigger waste of money than throwing in another 40 million to make something much better. Do it right or don't do it at all.

And as much as this stadium is a fail, it would be less so if it were in a different location. The design + same location really makes it feel that this is essentially a renovated Ivor Wynne that was turned 90 degrees. For 140 million, it should make a bigger impression than that.

[fenwick16]

I like the Ivor Wynne location. I went to Ivor Wynne stadium last year (October 7th, 2011) and posted some pictures on the Halifax Stadium Discussion thread, a year ago - http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=174940&page=182. I live in Ontario (I moved away from Nova Scotia 30 years ago) so it was a short car trip.

I wish the new Hamilton Stadium were being proposed for Halifax (similar design also in an urban location). One of the things that I liked most about Ivor Wyne was its urban location. Having homes in close proximity to the stadium adds an urban ambience that I think would be missed if the stadium were to be built in a more isolated location. As much as I enjoyed by trip to Ivor Wynne Stadium last year, I think the new stadium will be a big improvement (it will probably have all folding seats, more seats between the goal-lines and more concourse room on several concourse levels). I plan to attend more games in the new stadium, if I can get tickets.

[esquire]

There is definitely a lot of extra room in the corners and endzones, but I have to wonder how much consideration went into making the stadium expandable if extra seating was required. When Edmonton opened Commonwealth Stadium in 1978, the 42,000 seats were expanded to 60,000 a few years later by simply extending the upper decks outward (and by putting some seats in the end zones). But look at fenwick16's screencap above - you have elevator shafts and some sort of building at the ends of the grandstand which would make expansion difficult and awkward. It looks like you could maybe cram a few thousand endzone seats into the place, but that's it.

I think the reaction to this stadium comes down to expectations. Had Halifax proposed such a facility, I'm sure it would have been lauded as a wonderful development and a step forward for Canadian football. But that's because Halifax has no CFL tradition and a franchise there would be starting from scratch in terms of establishing a fanbase and attracting the community's support and goodwill. Contrast that with Hamilton - well over a century of football tradition between the Tiger-Cats and their antecedents. A well-supported team that is at the core of the city's identity, and this is the best that they could do?

I am familiar with the old pearl of wisdom that the last seat you build in a sports venue is the most expensive one in the place and the hardest to fill. Fair enough - no one is saying that Hamilton needs a 50,000 seat stadium. But when you look at Tiger-Cat attendance since Bob Young took over the team and rescued it from the nosedive it was in at the time, only once has average attendance been below 22,500. It's hard to conclude that this stadium is big enough for the team's current needs, let alone for the future. (Source: http://cfl-scrapbook.no-ip.org/CFL-Attendance.php )

The Ti-Cat braintrust seems oddly content with this building, but I don't think they realize that the new stadium is going to cause some serious damage to their team's image and brand. The CFL is obviously not on the same level as the NFL financially, but it has been able to advance a strong case that it is an important national institution and something approaching a "major league" worthy of a serious sports fan's attention. But you look at the new stadium in Hamilton, compare it to anything in the NFL, and it's basically like a AA baseball park sitting next to Yankee Stadium. This park projects a very small time and minor league image. It looks like something not meant to be taken seriously.

This proposed stadium has the potential to be such a huge mistake I have to wonder if it wouldn't be better to scrap the drawings, stay at IWS for a couple more seasons, and come up with a better plan for the long haul.

[TMW]

Well other than the yellow seats, and the endzone plaza I guess the similarities are slim. But it's our version of Steeltown.

Obviously not an architect, but I think this stadium is easily expandable. After seeing what is possible in the seating expansion's in Molson Stadium and Lambeau Field.

I'm so excited for all these new stadiums, the league is going look fantastic on TV. No more 30 year old rock hard turf and endless ads.

[SteelTown]

Mayor Bratina did mention during the unveiling to go after the Commonwealth Games. That would likely result a roof and more seating. Hamilton hosted the first games in 1930 and the bid for the 2030 Games is coming.

[Jon Dalton]

Well I went to the old IWS for the first and last time. Attendance for the game was just over 26,000 (in the first half, anyway). I liked the atmosphere of the stadium. The concessions and washrooms are supposed to be one of its biggest drawbacks, but it seemed to me like there was food and beer everywhere within reach. I never had trouble getting drinks. The washrooms could have been better, but it wasn't terrible.

If there were 26,000 people willing to pay for a game at an old and apparently inferior stadium, how will 22,500 seats work better? Now imagine if the team starts doing better? Those temporary seats might as well be permanent ones because they will need them every game.

[bigguy1231]

Mayor Bratina did mention during the unveiling to go after the Commonwealth Games. That would likely result a roof and more seating. Hamilton hosted the first games in 1930 and the bid for the 2030 Games is coming.

Maybe by then they will see the error of their ways and build us a new first class stadium in a better location.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Mayor Bratina did mention during the unveiling to go after the Commonwealth Games. That would likely result a roof and more seating. Hamilton hosted the first games in 1930 and the bid for the 2030 Games is coming.

Another major sporting event?? Dumb dumb needs to keep his mouth shut. It's probably not the best time for such nonsensical talk, though I'm not a savvy politician like BoBra, so what do I know?

Perhaps he could find out where all the money's gone. But that won't happen because he's half way up Bob Young's a**. Sigh...

[Dr Awesomesauce]

BTW anybody seen the most recent pics of Winnipeg's new stadium? Amazing and something Winnipeggers can really be proud of. Add that new stadium to their hockey arena (MTS Centre) and a really kick ass baseball field (Goldeye stadium) and it's clear that Winnipeg is a city that understands the importance of architecture in city building /pride. Anyway, check out Investors Group Field in the stadium thread of the Canada section.

[Berklon]

Wow, I just checked out Winnipeg's baseball stadium (Shaw Park)... very nice!

I always said the best backdrops for a stadium are either mountains, downtown office buildings or a body of water. Shaw Park has both the downtown offices and a body of water.

Love this view:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5056/5434114886_1f7358ebe9.jpg

Kinda beats the backdrop of a couple schools, old houses and steel mills huh.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

^And beyond the outfield fence is the river, so yeah, it's pretty awesome indeed.

The Goldeyes are an independent league team and yet they sell out most of their games; they typically lead the league in attendance. That wouldn't happen in Hamilton. I'm not saying Hamilton is a bad place or that Hamiltonians are sh*tty sport fans; the two cities are just different animals.

Anyway, in my mind, nothing beats a proper minor league baseball stadium. And not only does Winnipeg have one, they've also got two pretty decent major league stadiums too.

Compare Winnipeg's stadia to Bernie Arbour, Copps and Ivor Wynne. We can do better...much better.

[realcity]

A week after Peg's new Blue Bombers stadium reveal they increased season tickets to a record 22,000 seats.

A few days after TiCats new stadium reveal and it nets a zero increase in new season tickets. What does that tell you? A complete lost of opportunity for everyone involved with a lame-assed 1940 design.

[go_leafs_go02]

A week after Peg's new Blue Bombers stadium reveal they increased season tickets to a record 22,000 seats.

A few days after TiCats new stadium reveal and it nets a zero increase in new season tickets. What does that tell you? A complete lost of opportunity for everyone involved with a lame-assed 1940 design.

Do you have a source saying that?

[FrankieFlowerpot]

And exactly where are those 2013 season seats for?

[realcity]

which fact? Google Winnipeg Sun and you'll find that they reached 22,000 seasons.

Hamilton well, it's a rumour, no source, but you could be assured if the phone was ringing off the hook at Jarvis Street we'd hear about it. Apparently no increase in seasons and no buzz. So there you go.

A new stadium anywhere in the world creates a buzz, this thing has zero.

[BCTed]

Wow, I just checked out Winnipeg's baseball stadium (Shaw Park)... very nice!

I always said the best backdrops for a stadium are either mountains, downtown office buildings or a body of water. Shaw Park has both the downtown offices and a body of water.

Love this view:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5056/5434114886_1f7358ebe9.jpg

Kinda beats the backdrop of a couple schools, old houses and steel mills huh.

It's a good view, but it appears to be one that the players see, rather than the actual audience. I don't know what the view looking toward the outfield is like.

My big problem with the new Hamilton stadium is the stadium itself rather than the location.

[durandy]

Blue Bomber stadium broke ground May 2010, yet to be completed 2.5 years later. Is there any way that this stadium if started in spring 2013 is conceivably going to be ready for July 1 2014, much less 2015??? Does that mean the city will have to pay the Ticats indemnities for the 2014-15 season?

[Dr Awesomesauce]

^That might be why we're getting such a bare-bones stadium - nothing else could possibly get built in time. Even at that, I don't think it's getting done in that time frame...no way.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

I know it's easy for me to say, but this shite rendering is the opportunity the City needs to pull its support for the games /TiCats. If you asked City councillors privately, I'm sure they'd largely support such a move. However, it would require a massive set of bollocks to actually follow through on such a thing. We've already buggered any potential city building vis a vis the Pan Am Games, so why not just go the whole 110 yards and step away from the plate? I love mixed metaphors!

[Berklon]

It's a good view, but it appears to be one that the players see, rather than the actual audience. I don't know what the view looking toward the outfield is like.

The outfield view is Red River - although the fans view is probably only the trees as they may not be high enough to see the river. I doubt their games are televised, but this is the kind of thing that looks good on TV - and it would go a long way in repairing people's image of Hamilton had we offered an attractive view.

My big problem with the new Hamilton stadium is the stadium itself rather than the location.

Right now the location is a moot point anyway I guess, so yes - the stadium is the big problem now. It just illustrates how big a clusterf*ck this whole thing is when every decision they make is a bad one.

I just wish they'd cancel this whole thing - give whatever Pan-Am events we're supposed to have to another city... and sit on the stadium thing until it can be done right. The city has to live with this huge mistake for decades and we really can't afford to delay revitalization in any respect any longer as there's a point where a comeback is no longer possible.

[drpgq]

Putting aside the arguments about the stadium for a second, what's the earliest Hamilton could host a Grey Cup there? Probably 2016, after the Pan Am games year and a few years after this year's in Toronto. Hopefully the Ticats could do a better job hosting than in 96. And maybe the Cats might be better in 2016. Maybe.

[go_leafs_go02]

Hamilton is better off giving up this stadium, sticking with Ivor Wynne for a few more years, giving up the Pan-Am Events, and then focusing on getting funding in 3-5 years for a new modern stadium.

[flar]

This is likely the only chance for this much fed/prov funding for a stadium that Hamilton will have for a long time. Keeping an 80 year old stadium for even a few more years is a risk because it could be condemned at any time. I think a city of Hamilton's size needs a stadium, even if it's a crappy one.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Hamilton is better off giving up this stadium, sticking with Ivor Wynne for a few more years, giving up the Pan-Am Events, and then focusing on getting funding in 3-5 years for a new modern stadium.

I don't think that even has a remote chance of happening

[go_leafs_go02]

This is likely the only chance for this much fed/prov funding for a stadium that Hamilton will have for a long time. Keeping an 80 year old stadium for even a few more years is a risk because it could be condemned at any time. I think a city of Hamilton's size needs a stadium, even if it's a crappy one.

That's true - I know how significant the funding is - but I figured there may be another go-round down the road for an opportunity better than this. But the risk of condemnation is HUGE as well, and wasn't something I truly considered.

[matt602]

If the city were to pull out of the games and the stadium there's no chance in hell that the Ti-Cats would put any of their own money into a new stadium, and obviously just as little chance that any government funding would go into it. This was our one chance where everything came together and we blew it.

[c@taract_soulj@h]

Lack of seats, lack of design, lack of location

"Sorry kid, but I'm going to have to give you a 6/10 on this assignment...you had months to complete this and you left it last minute"

Stadium=Fail

This is why I don't comment much on here...I don't want to sound dissapointed all the time but leave it for city council to bastardize a 'potential' gem :shrug:

This town's home as much for me as it is for all you fellow Hammerheads but every new thing that has potential to give us pride always ends up falling short.

[durandy]

Next thing is just for Mac to give us a crappy health centre to complete our year of good news stories gone bad. Vranich is starting to look like the surest thing in this town.

[BCTed]

I went to the final ever game at Ivor Wynne today. I am now even more certain that I would much rather have the current stadium for a few more years than that terrible replacement. Heck, I would rather keep the old one permanently if it were possible than have that new one. Ugh.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

I'd much rather have done a serious $25-50MM renovation to Ivor Wynne /Brian Timmis /Scott Park. I'm not sure many people would have complained about that. And perhaps the Federal and Provincial governments would have bankrolled the lot of it, saving our Future Fund monies for something more deserving. Instead, the Kitty Cats have pissed off the City and more importantly, their fan base. What football fans consider THE BEST PLACE TO WATCH A GAME will be razed in favour of a high school stadium. Oh and to the tune of $150MM and without Brian Timmis. Total FAIL.

[Black Star]

Whats the latest design look like?

[matt602]

Whats the latest design look like?

Refer to pages 194 and 195 of this thread.

[Black Star]

Well...look on the bright side....Its New!!

[FutureSmith]

Any word on Bob Young purchasing the Scott Park site? Seems the most efficient way to adress the parking situation is to build a parking structure (possibly underground?) Ideally, the Ticats and the City go halves on the site, then Young gets to tear up the entire Scott park parcel and build an underground parking structure. Once that's finished, the structure is buried and the city gets to extend the park over the site of the former school. I wouldn't bet on it, but hey- we can dream, right?

[CaptainKirk]

Any word on Bob Young purchasing the Scott Park site? Seems the most efficient way to adress the parking situation is to build a parking structure (possibly underground?) Ideally, the Ticats and the City go halves on the site, then Young gets to tear up the entire Scott park parcel and build an underground parking structure. Once that's finished, the structure is buried and the city gets to extend the park over the site of the former school. I wouldn't bet on it, but hey- we can dream, right?

Can't see it. Parking structures are expensive and for 10 games a year, it wouldn't pay for it. especially and underground one. And why would the city pay for half of that?

A 1,000 car, 6 level parking structure just cost taxpayers $41m, almost equaling the city's contribution to the stadium itself.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/mediaroom/releases-2012-h112e-6921.htm

[FutureSmith]

Not suggesting that the city pay for constructing the parkade, just the land purchase in exchange for extending the public park above ground

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Who should pay for it? Bob Young?

[mattgrande]

Not completely related to this, but here's the stadiums being build/renovated for the 2014 World Cup in Brazil. Most of them are much more expensive than Ivor Wynne, but it gives you an idea of what goes for what price.

http://imgur.com/a/IL005

[Berklon]

Holy crap... nice stadiums... all of them.

I know Brazil has almost 200m people.... and they're hosting the 2014 World Cup and the 2016 Summer Olympics (Rio) - but doesn't building 12 stadiums (on top of what they already have) seem excessive?

Come fall 2016, will they be stuck with quite a few white elephants?

[mattgrande]

Holy crap... nice stadiums... all of them.

I know Brazil has almost 200m people.... and they're hosting the 2014 World Cup and the 2016 Summer Olympics (Rio) - but doesn't building 12 stadiums (on top of what they already have) seem excessive?

Come fall 2016, will they be stuck with quite a few white elephants?

Yes, they will. I got that link from reddit's soccer page (here (http://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/12ggc7/2014_world_cup_stadiums_gallery_with_current/)).

Note Eitjr's comment (excerpts below):


Manaus 44.000 people - It's in the middle of the amazon forest... If you get the public of all the 102 games in the state's local championship (29.180 people) you won't fill the stadium ONCE. They only have one team in the last division of brazilian championship and that's because every state has at least 1 spot.
...
Cuiaba 43.600 people - Soccer there is amauteur. They have two teams in the third division (promoted last year) but it had an avarage of 1.000 people per game.
...
Natal 45.000 people - They have 2 teams in Second division but they have no tradition in soccer. The city is very VERY poor
...
Recife 46.000 - State with very strong tradition in soccer and all 3 big teams in recife brings over 10-20k people every game. BUT none of the 3 teams will use the new stadium. Which isn't even in Recife, it's in a city near it. They all have their stadiums and they don't want to use the new one!
...
Brasilia 71.400 people - No soccer tradition. They have ONLY one team in the third division and it had an avarage of 800 people per game this year. They almost got relegated to the fourth and last division... It got picked because is the capital of Brazil.


He then goes on to talk about cities that could use a stadium, but didn't get them.

Oh, and many of the stadiums are renos or rebuilds, not fully new.

[Berklon]

Wow, that's just nuts.

Maybe after the Summer Olympics are over they can ship us one of their stadiums We'll take their worst one (which will still be better than ours) and we'll even pay the shipping costs.

[SteelTown]

So playoffs is over so we can expect construction soon.

[FutureSmith]

:previous: Construction firm takes possession of the Ivor Wynne site on Dec 1st, so don;t expect anything before then.

[c@taract_soulj@h]

I was thinking about this...

The new stadium isn't horrid per-se, just something we didn't really expect in terms of being on the wow-factor.

To me, the stadium just seems like what happened if Heinz Field took a dump...actually, I want to cringe the more I look at it. As much of a disappointment it is, it's not going away and we'll have to accept it.

It'll be something we're going to have to call ours whether we like it or not, and appreciate over the course of time. I've seen a ton of great games played at the old Ivor Wynne so it'll take some warming up and at least few years that defines this new place the Ticats will call home.

[drto]

Are they planning on selling any of the seats, turf, etc after de-construction, similar to the old Yankee Stadium? They could potentially raise some extra cash. I'm sure there are some die hards in Hamilton that would be willing to shell out some cash for a neat souvenir or two.:cheers:

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Yes they are

http://www.ticats.ca/article/fans-to-have-the-chance-to-own-a-piece-of-history

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Without wishing to restert the whole stadium design debate again - I just came across this 40,000 all-seater soccer stadium in Spain that was built in 2009 for $77 million

Yes, I know there's different construction prices in Spain - and yes I know it was 3 years ago - and it's 10 km outside the city but still

Estadi Cornellà-El Prat

http://estadiosdeespana.blogspot.ca/2011/03/barcelona-estadi-cornella-el-prat.html

http://www.sportsemotions.com/wikisports/img/fotos-equipos/Espanyol/estadio-espanol.jpg

[Dr Awesomesauce]

That poor horse is long dead.

The stadium we get will be shitty and over-priced. Full stop.

[SteelTown]

Requesting to chop down 38 trees in the area

http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/49DBE039-DC6F-48C0-A988-9DA439E0CB15/0/Dec03EDRMS_n379631_v1_8_3__PW12099.pdf

[SteelTown]

Pan Am Stadium presentation

http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/EC06FC89-E818-45E4-B3D2-074F7A8DE750/0/Dec04EDRMS_n381218_v1_7_2_PED12218.pdf

[bigguy1231]

It looks like a steel siding clad building that would look better in an industrial park.

I can't believe this city is building such a useless facility. If you look at the site plan the grandstands are being built right up to the existing roads, making it almost impossible to add seats between the goal lines if they needed to in the future.

What an absolute waste of tax dollars.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

The knife's been inserted. My guts are spilling out all over the floor and yet they continue to twist, disemboweling me further.

I won't pay for another ticket until Bob Young is gone. Not much of a protest, I know, but it's the best I can do as a CFL / Kitty Cats fan.

[realcity]

what a bush league stadium. Of all the stadiums that u/c or were recently built in the entire world, all around the same budget this is by far the world's worst. Leave it to Hamilton to accomplish this. There are stadiums built for less money that could fit this piece of crap inside it and then put a partial roof over it. The excuse over the amount of land is crap, they used Timmis land plus what was already there.

[Pearlstreet]

Maybe I'm late to the party, but I'm just realizing most of the seating (tall seating with city views) faces the industrial, eastward. I'm trying hard to see positive here, I suppose it's 99 yards short of a touchdown, but better than the old - look at it that way. Cover it up with 120 trees I guess.
:burstbubble:
http://i46.tinypic.com/1o3713.jpg

[Berklon]

The knife's been inserted. My guts are spilling out all over the floor and yet they continue to twist, disemboweling me further.

I won't pay for another ticket until Bob Young is gone. Not much of a protest, I know, but it's the best I can do as a CFL / Kitty Cats fan.

I said it at the time that the city should have called Bob Young's bluff. They cowered instead and let the idiot screw everything up. The worst part is this plan didn't even address the issues he had in the first place.

What a waste of money, and worse - an opportunity.

[bigguy1231]

what a bush league stadium. Of all the stadiums that u/c or were recently built in the entire world, all around the same budget this is by far the world's worst. Leave it to Hamilton to accomplish this. There are stadiums built for less money that could fit this piece of crap inside it and then put a partial roof over it. The excuse over the amount of land is crap, they used Timmis land plus what was already there.

Whatever happened to you'll see, the place is going to be great.

I tried to tell you exactly what we were going to get for the money we were spending.

Oh and don't blame the city, they are just as shocked about the lack of imagination in the design as the rest of us. This disaster is all on the Pan Am people, they are responsible for the design and construction of the stadium, the city had no input.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

I'm trying hard to see positive here, I suppose it's 99 yards short of a touchdown, but better than the old - look at it that way. Cover it up with 120 trees I guess.
:burstbubble

Ahem...perhaps you meant 109 yards short, though 99 does sound better. ;)

[c@taract_soulj@h]

Even if they did redesign the thing, they apparently still don't believe in roofs or even overhangs...although a minor detail, I've always liked how it defines the design of any stadium (Seattle or Cincinatti..hell, Winnipeg even) A memo perhaps no one got at the planning firm :shrug:

[FutureSmith]

If the presentation (posted above) is accurate, then the elevators will be on the back of the building and will NOT wrap around the top of the stands -thank god. Not only would that complicate any future expansion of the upper deck, but I had SERIOUS concerns regarding the sightlines. Tell me those would not have blocked any view the endzones

[OntheMattack]

Blue Bomber stadium broke ground May 2010, yet to be completed 2.5 years later. Is there any way that this stadium if started in spring 2013 is conceivably going to be ready for July 1 2014, much less 2015??? Does that mean the city will have to pay the Ticats indemnities for the 2014-15 season?

The reason the Bomber stadium is taking so long is that the group who originally were going to but the team and pay for a bunch of the construction costs left (or were kicked off the project. I don't remember). So the site was just a giant hole in the ground for almost a full year while negotiating went on. Construction of anything other than a stadium sized hole only started in August 2011.

[thistleclub]

Pan Am stadium falls short of city’s design standards (http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/847793--pan-am-stadium-falls-short-of-city-s-design-standards)
(Hamilton Spectator, Emma Reilly, Dec 3, 2012)

Excerpt:

After months of frustration and secrecy surrounding the Pan Am stadium, city councillors have been dealt another blow — this time over the design of the new athletics facility.

In a report going to the planning committee Tuesday, city staff say the stadium does not comply with the city’s design guidelines. Several elements have fallen short, despite the fact that all the stadium bidders were given those guidelines more than a year in advance.

One major concern is that the rough underbelly of the stands will be exposed to the street, when city’s guidelines require the stands to be enclosed. The public plaza planned for the stadium’s entrance also falls short of the city’s guidelines, which require seating, shade, greenery and visual interest.

The city outlined its urban design principles to provincial officials in a letter sent Oct. 31, 2011.

“They were expected to comply with them, and they’re not. Now my question is going to be, how come?” Councillor Lloyd Ferguson said at Monday’s public works committee meeting. “We’ve had zero control of this thing … now we have to do our absolute best to make sure it’s something we’re going to be proud of when it’s done.”

City staff say the stadium contractors — a consortium called Ontario Sports Solutions — must satisfy all the outstanding design issues before they’ll receive a building permit.

Officials from Ontario Sports Solutions will attend Tuesday’s planning meeting to answer councillors’ questions about the design.

[Berklon]

One major concern is that the rough underbelly of the stands will be exposed to the street, when city’s guidelines require the stands to be enclosed. The public plaza planned for the stadium’s entrance also falls short of the city’s guidelines, which require seating, shade, greenery and visual interest.

:haha:

This whole thing just keeps sinking deeper into another level of incompetence.

These are pretty big aspects of the guidelines which isn't exactly easy to miss. As it stands the current stadium design falls far short of the cost to build, how much more will this thing cost in order to meet the guidelines?
Even at the current cost I was expecting the design to be closer to Winnipeg's new stadium, nevermind my expectations with an even higher cost.

Give this thing up already.

[durandy]

This feels to me like staff and council doing what little they can to voice their displeasure at being treated like amateurs this whole time. I'm sure very little about the stadium conforms with planning guidelines. I could be wrong and the city actually has design guidelines for stadiums, but that seems a bit farfetched.

But this also ties in to OntheMattack's comment - if there could be a yearlong delay in Winnipeg you can bet your donuts it can happen in Hamilton too! Here's just the first of what I'm sure will be a dismal spectacle to watch.

[BCTed]

I would not be heartbroken if that poor-looking, undersized stadium was scrapped.

I still do not understand the reason why capacity was set at 22,500 seats.

I also wish I knew if the effective expected construction cost was $119 million or $150 million --- I do not exactly understand what the other $30MM is being spent on (design/drawings?). It feels like the comparable number to the $190 million for the Winnipeg stadium is the $119 million, but I have no actual idea. Whatever the number, I disagree with most of you in that I do not think it is an enormous or even necessarily significant amount to be spent on a CFL stadium. That stated, I think you could do better with either the $119MM or the $150MM.

[mattgrande]

This feels to me like staff and council doing what little they can to voice their displeasure at being treated like amateurs this whole time. I'm sure very little about the stadium conforms with planning guidelines. I could be wrong and the city actually has design guidelines for stadiums, but that seems a bit farfetched.

But this also ties in to OntheMattack's comment - if there could be a yearlong delay in Winnipeg you can bet your donuts it can happen in Hamilton too! Here's just the first of what I'm sure will be a dismal spectacle to watch.

They didn't have pre-existing stadium design guidelines prior to this whole thing, but they provided IO with their guidelines for this facility in October, 2011. (According to The Spec)

[FrankieFlowerpot]

One major concern is that the rough underbelly of the stands will be exposed to the street, when city’s guidelines require the stands to be enclosed.

I don't understand - isn't the underside of the cureent south stand exposed?

http://i48.tinypic.com/au8b6e.jpg

[bigguy1231]

[QUOTE=FrankieFlowerpot;5924684]I don't understand - isn't the underside of the cureent south stand exposed?

That grandstand is 60 years old and would have be grandfathered under the new guidelines. The city has guidelines for new construction within the city.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

I'd be curious to see what those are

Edit: found them

[SteelTown]

You are allowed to have it enclosed over the sidewalk. That's what Harry Stinson is doing with the Hamilton Grand.

https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=Hamilton+ontario&hl=en&ll=43.254451,-79.865831&spn=0.002813,0.006051&client=firefox-a&hnear=Hamilton,+Hamilton+Division,+Ontario&gl=ca&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=43.254309,-79.865789&panoid=HA50GKlPzRtRGFzHBeGYdw&cbp=12,107.1,,0,0

Having it over the street probably means there will be steel beams somewhere along the sidewalk to support the deck.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Removal trucks were there this weekend

http://i47.tinypic.com/fy1jmf.jpg

[NortheastWind]

Well the last comment in the Spec article shows promise for design improvements: "City staff say Ontario Sports Solutions must satisfy all the outstanding design issues before they’ll receive a building permit".

[FrankieFlowerpot]

So it looks like City of Hamilton staff did see the three proposed designs for the stadium – as outlined here in these minutes from March 2012 - on Page 4

Why weren't these issues raised then?

http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/A7ED5D28-C702-4CDA-91AD-8DE1162AA42A/0/Apr18EDRMS_n288876_v1_8_13__Report_12001_Pan_Am_Precinct_Sub.pdf

Chair Ferguson asked if Councillors would get to review all three designs.

Mr. McKendrick indicated that City of Hamilton staff have seen all three designs and if there was a desire to sign the confidentiality agreement they councillors could also review the three designs.

[SteelTown]

Apparently they did a mock up for the stadium in the West Harbour and "looks like a much more futuristic design" UGH!

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Apparently they did a mock up for the stadium in the West Harbour and "looks like a much more futuristic design" UGH!

They were talking about this design - there was no mockup

Brad Clark asks Johnston if he's seen the design mock-up for the west harbour. "It just looks like a much more futuristic design."

"The stadium in the west harbour was a considerably different site that allowed for a different approach to be taken," Johnston said

http://football.ballparks.com/CFL/Hamilton/newaerial2.jpg

[FrankieFlowerpot]

http://i48.tinypic.com/vg7rk9.jpg


Tweets from Emma Reilly of the Spec

Councillors have asked staff to come back with the final designs for one last look before approval is granted

But since council delegated its authority to staff for privacy reasons, they won't have any control over the final design

[SteelTown]

So basically majority of council just wants them to cover up the steel beams. No exposed underbelly and have a solid facade. What's that gonna cost? An extra million? Just do it, there's like an extra $30 million cushion.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/topstories/2012/12/04/li-panam5-620.jpg

[esquire]

This really isn't a bad looking stadium... even with the "exposed underbelly" it isn't that bad. Some screening will fix the aesthetic issues in a hurry.

The size of the facility is still underwhelming, though. Considering that in the 1970s, Ivor Wynne Stadium held 34,500 fans, this feels like a big step backward for the league and the city. I realize that the capacity is a consideration driven by the bean-counters involved in the exercise, but from a fan standpoint it's too bad that they couldn't have found a way to increase the capacity to 30,000 fans by adding permanent seats in one endzone and giving the facility a horseshoe layout.

[Vod_Kann]

This really isn't a bad looking stadium... even with the "exposed underbelly" it isn't that bad. Some screening will fix the aesthetic issues in a hurry.

The size of the facility is still underwhelming, though. Considering that in the 1970s, Ivor Wynne Stadium held 34,500 fans, this feels like a big step backward for the league and the city. I realize that the capacity is a consideration driven by the bean-counters involved in the exercise, but from a fan standpoint it's too bad that they couldn't have found a way to increase the capacity to 30,000 fans by adding permanent seats in one endzone and giving the facility a horseshoe layout.

I think that is one area where better communcations, there will be less seats but the stadium will actually be bigger (I think I heard Bob Young mention it will be twice as big). All that space is taken up with wider seats, more legroom, more aisle, more concessions etc.

I think a lot of people when they hear less seat they think smaller stadium in size as well.

They needed in the video to show it compared to Ivor Wynne to give it some scale or maybe scale models of the two besides each other.

[SteelTown]

Pan American Stadium | 40m | ? | Approved -> Pan American Stadium | 40m | ? | Under Construction

They are demolishing Ivor Wynne.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Pan Am has our b*lls in a sling. Nothin' we can do about it now. Oh well, no one to blame but ourselves, I suppose.

[realcity]

THe new presentation with a tad bit more detail was a bit better. But what concerns me is that south promenade area looks good in concept, I don't know how they are going to keep non-ticket holders people out of the stadium without erecting chain link fencing everywhere and ruining the whole concept. Unless that south side "concept" is elevated this is going to be the easiest stadium to just walk into without tickets, where's all the chain link fencing in the renderings? This is Hamilton, we need our prison-like Frost® fences.

It also looks expensive for the City of Hamilton to give a crap about the upkeep. You know Hamilton loves its low maintenance cracked ashphalt look. Flower beds and flagpoles are a bit much to ask for maintenance.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

There is a fence there - all those people on the "plaza" are inside the stadium.

[realcity]

[QUOTE=FrankieFlowerpot;5925137]http://i48.tinypic.com/vg7rk9.jpg

I don't see a fence, I see two arches that you can just walk through off Canon. I don't even see the field goal nets. That south promenade imo has not been thought through. End zone seats would be better.

[matt602]

I think theres actually a "glass wall" between those pillars but I'm not sure if that would act as a fence as you're referring to it as. Given the Canadian climate, an outdoor glass wall would be a really dumb idea anyway.