Tim Hortons Field | 40m | ? | Complete

[isaidso]

Tailgate parties? Really?

Are there currently any CFL teams that have tailgate parties?

You can't compare the CFL to the NFL. Do you honestly think there's enough excitement in an 8 team league to generate this sort of thing?

Build a stadium out in the middle of nowhere with massive parking and this is what you'll get: people driving to the game, parking their cars, sitting amongst 20,000 other fans, get in the car and drive home. That's it.

I'd certainly attend more games each year if they paid more attention to the football experience. Tailgate parties are a great way to cultivate a culture of football in a community and you don't need to be out in the middle of nowhere to do it.

I grew up in Halifax and college football is the #1 sport there. Half the fun of going to see Saint Mary's was showing up hours early and milling around with tons of other people before kick off. You get your team colours on, you eat your burgers, drink your beer, and often there's a band outside the stadium that gets everyone psyched up for the game.

Whether the Argonauts or Lions do tailgate parties is neither here, nor there. Franchises need to recognize that the football experience is a very important determinant in how deeply entrenched their teams become in their market. Saint Mary's University football is popular in Halifax for a reason. Game day atmosphere is amazing and it's just plain fun.

Surely the pro football brass aren't so out to lunch that they think its only about what happens on the field? It's the game day atmosphere that makes attendance figures skyrocket. Do you think all those people at US college football games are all there for the game? Football is huge in the US because it's moved far beyond being just about football.

Football people in Canada need to wake up! You need football specific stadiums with no tracks, you need great game day atmosphere, bands, cheerleaders, barbecues, half time shows, etc. Football can't keep treating this as some sport you just show up for. They need to run this like a business and understand that marketing is vital to their long term prosperity.

I'd rather not have a stadium in the middle of nowhere, but surely some middle ground can be reached that addresses both the needs of the team, and the needs of the city.

If a tiny town in Ohio can get riled up for a high school football game, I don't see why a big city with a professional team can't. The idea that this is the CFL so it's no big deal is a crock of shit. They get 20,000 out to high school football down south. High school football!!!! Do you think they're saying well this ain't the NFL, so we won't bother????

[realcity]

highway signage, or any signage on public *and private* property is restricted to bylaws.

Im not sure where you'd like to signage? But across 400 series highways... forget about it.

[Jasonhouse]

Real City... The next time the Admins have to respond to multiple complaints of you post flooding, your account will be suspended for at least a week. Please put your remarks in one post... If you decide you have additional remarks to make after recently making a post, edit them into the end of that recent post. Do not make post after post after post, as you typically do. It is highly annoying to basically anyone who comes in after you and reads the thread.

Thanks.

[realcity]

Jason, understood. read my PM. and next time, before you become judge and jury I would a appreciate a private message, and not call me out in public like this .... respect.

Thanks

*How is it flooding when each post is a unique comment?*

You know what? I'll give myself a week suspension.

[realcity]

I'd certainly attend more games each year if they paid more attention to the football experience. Tailgate parties are a great way to cultivate a culture of football in a community and you don't need to be out in the middle of nowhere to do it.

I grew up in Halifax and college football is the #1 sport there. Half the fun of going to see Saint Mary's was showing up hours early and milling around with tons of other people before kick off. You get your team colours on, you eat your burgers, drink your beer, and often there's a band outside the stadium that gets everyone psyched up for the game.

Whether the Argonauts or Lions do tailgate parties is neither here, nor there. Franchises need to recognize that the football experience is a very important determinant in how deeply entrenched their teams become in their market. Saint Mary's University football is popular in Halifax for a reason. Game day atmosphere is amazing and it's just plain fun.

Surely the pro football brass aren't so out to lunch that they think its only about what happens on the field? It's the game day atmosphere that makes attendance figures skyrocket. Do you think all those people at US college football games are all there for the game? Football is huge in the US because it's moved far beyond being just about football.

Football people in Canada need to wake up! You need football specific stadiums with no tracks, you need great game day atmosphere, bands, cheerleaders, barbecues, half time shows, etc. Football can't keep treating this as some sport you just show up for. They need to run this like a business and understand that marketing is vital to their long term prosperity.

I'd rather not have a stadium in the middle of nowhere, but surely some middle ground can be reached that addresses both the needs of the team, and the needs of the city.

If a tiny town in Ohio can get riled up for a high school football game, I don't see why a big city with a professional team can't. The idea that this is the CFL so it's no big deal is a crock of shit. They get 20,000 out to high school football down south. High school football!!!! Do you think they're saying well this ain't the NFL, so we won't bother????


Well said. finally someone else gets it. Don't be surprised if you get a mail from the senior admins because your position doesn't agree with the local admin. Just an FYI.

and this is my last post. for sure for sure.... keep reading these threads if you enjoy reading cut/copy from the spec.com *but only certain cut/copies* and dare not, oppose a comment or risk being suspended.

What has happened to this forum?

*I will still keep illustrating though, I think I'm still in the top 20 illustrators?*

[markbarbera]

I offered many reasons, culled from my experience in Hamilton and elsewhere, as to why I think the West Harbor is superior to the other options on the table (or those proposed here). I'm not going to re-type that post. I don't trust the Ticats' own studies for reasons also outlined in an above post.

I'll say it again (and again, if need be): I haven't seen any rationale from either realcity or yourself as to how your own proposed locations respond to the increasing modal shift in transit away from the automobile, the stereotypical and declining CFL football fan demographic that you both (or realcity, at least) keep invoking in favor of a location farther from downtown - and thus the often overlooked point that this stadium will not be built to last for five or even ten years, but likely half a century at minimum.

Not meaning disrespect, but the reasons you have proposed in the past are at best anecdotal and are not supported by real, hard facts. Why dismiss a study done by the Ticats? They are the organization that stands to gain or lose the most from the stadium location aside from city taxpayers. Be it a study by the Ticats, by the Port Authority or by the city itself Barton and Tiffany consitently comes up lacking. Alternate locations were never explored by the city to any level of detail, so we don't know if there is a site that is superior. The facilitation process will correct the city's mistake inthis regard, let's see how Barton and Tiffany stacks up against the alternate site identified during the facilitation process.

As far as a site's ability to respond to potential future transportation modal shifts, how does Barton and Tiffany hold an advantage over the other suggested sites here? If anything it holds a disadvantage. For example, a site at the foot of Centennial is directly accessible by a 400-series highway and a city parkway. In addition, it is adjacent to the CN rail line so rail service could easily be extended here, and HSR service can be extended and complemented via shuttles in the same manner as is proposed for Barton and Tiffany. Similarly, a site along the 403 on "the Hamilton side of Aldershot" such as the south west corner of Aberdeen and Longwood (currently a CP warehouse distribution site which CP is rumoured to be possibly relocating) or (dare I mention it again) Kay Drage Park are both superior to Barton and Tiffany in their potential to accomodate multi-modal travel.

Barton and Tiffany is a flawed site because of its limitations for accessibility. In order to make it sustainable (both short and long term) it would require a significant investment in supporting infrastructure. Is it wise for the city invest the extra cash to increase road capacity to accomodate a stadium that is in use ten days of the year when there are sites available that would require little or no infrastructure changes? What about the impact increased road capacity would have on the residential area to the south and west of Barton and Tiffany? Not to mention the impact on the city's operating budget - I thought we were looking to get road capacity under control.

The notion of regional fans parking at Eastgate and riding the proposed LRT to West Harbour is quaint but not truly realistic as a primary travel option for Niagara-based fans. The LRT system will be an arrival mode to the site, but its limitations will make it a secondary feeder to the stadium, regardless of location. The average LRT will have rider capacity of 260 people max. Assuming a system with 5 minute headway (which I believe is what is being considered for Hamilton's LRT but feel free to correct me), the LRT's maximum hourly capacity would be about 3100 riders in either direction. That leaves at least 18,000 seats that will need to be filled by those arrive by car. in 20-30 years' time with the A-line in place the capacity has the potential to double, but that still remains inadequate to consider public transit as a primary feeder of stadium fans, no matter where it is located.

[realcity]

The average LRT will have rider capacity of 260 people max. Assuming a system with 5 minute headway (which I believe is what is being considered for Hamilton's LRT but feel free to correct me), the LRT's could maximum hourly capacity would be about 3100 riders in either direction. That leaves at least 18,000 seats that will need to be filled by those arrive by car.

Wow! has anyone on council or Staff or is the City/TiCat mediator even aware of this?

West harbour advocates talk like LRT as being the messiah of accessibility.

[drpgq]

...so it's easy to take the HSR to the game, no matter where the stadium ends up.

This is fine for a market base within the city service area, but free bus service has done nothing to draw up the crowd numbers at Ivor Wynne, has it? And the Ticat market needs to expand further out to the Hamilton/Halton/K-W/Niagara regions if it is to survive. West Harbour doesn't have the infrastructure to support a team with a regional fan base, and there isn't a willingness to make changes to the infrastructure so it could.

How do you know free bus service hasn't done anything? How would you measure that? I have a car, but much prefer taking the bus so I can enjoy a few drinks. Confederation Park will be a public transit disaster both from a HSR and GO standpoint.

[SteelTown]

Oilers talking Copps, stadium with the city
Councillors talking memo of understanding

June 29, 2010

Edmonton Oilers owner Daryl Katz is in the city today negotiating a deal to take control of Copps Coliseum and the Pan Am Stadium.

In a letter to city manager Chris Murray under the name of Katz Entertainment Holdings Corporation, Pat LaForge wrote that the purpose of today’s meeting is to discuss a “non-binding memorandum of agreement which would lead to a ‘licence to operate’ various HECFI properties including Copps Coliseum and the future Pan Am sports stadium proposed for the West Harbour.”

Council met behind closed doors to get council approval to negotiate a memorandum of understanding with the group.

In addition to Katz and LaForge, in attendance will be Paul Marcaccio, CFO of the Katz group and Ted Tanner, executive vice president of entertainment group AEG.

AEG, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Anschutz Company, owns or controls a collection of companies including facilities such as the Staples Center in Los Angeles amd the Colosseum at Caesars Palace in Las Vegas.

The group is now in an open session with council. Those present have just finished watching a video on AEG. Now, a consultant is taking councilors through a presentation on Hamilton’s ability to host an NHL team.

Katz commissioned a survey of 1400 people in the area. The result was 900 people said they were very interested in an NHL team here.

Based on that and other conversations with businesses, they think a Hamilton NHL team could easily draw a minimum of 15,000 season tickets.



Ticats president Scott Mitchell is also at city hall. He was guarded when asked about the Katz proposal and said he would reserve judgment.

Mitchell said he first became aware of the negotiations over the weekend.

He said he has heard rumours that Hamilton Mayor Fred Eisenberger was shopping around to find a new owner for the Cats. But he said the team is not for sale.

Reports say Katz's goal is acquiring the lease to control the placement of a potential NHL team in Hamilton.

City Hall confirmed this morning that Eisenberger will have media availability this afternoon. And reports say that Hamilton Entertainment Convention Facilities Incorporated will be holding a press conference.

.........

http://www.thespec.com/News/BreakingNews/article/798487

[SteelTown]

Rexall Stadium huh?

[SteelTown]

You can listen to the interview here

http://www.900chml.com/Channels/Reg/NewsLocalGeneral/Story.aspx?ID=1247290

Investor eyes Hamilton sporting venues

Ken Mann
6/29/2010

The vision of sporting venues that are clustered in Hamilton's core has caught the attention of the billionaire-owner of the NHL's Edmonton Oilers.

Katz Entertainment Holdings, owned by Daryl Katz, has entered into a memorandum of understanding through which it will investigate the potential operation of Copps Coliseum and the new west harbour stadium.

The memorandum, which was agreed to by Hamilton politicians at a meeting on Tuesday afternoon, will expire on August 30th.

Katz Entertainment Holdings spokesman Patrick LaForge calls the west harbour stadium location "ideal".

Mayor Eisenberger adds that facilitated negotiations with the Tiger Cats over the suitability of that site are continuing.

LaForge adds that while they are interested in the operation of Copps Coliseum, and view Hamilton as a "viable" NHL market, there is currently no team involved in their proposal.

He stresses that "this is not about the Oilers", who are staying in Edmonton.

Hamilton Mayor Fred Eisenberger with Jim Carierre on the potential deal

[SteelTown]

Looks like the proposal also includes Katz building an entertainment precinct along the West Harbour.

[SteelTown]

Edmonton Oilers group looking to score with Hamilton

By Kevin Werner
News
Jun 29, 2010
http://www.stoneycreeknews.com/news/article/214071

Former Edmonton Oilers owners Peter Pocklington left Hamilton officials 30 years ago standing at the altar alone, and without an NHL team for their new Copps Coliseum.

Politicians don’t want that to happen again.

“I will reserve my judgment,” said Mountain councillor Tom Jackson, referring to a proposal from the current Edmonton Oilers owners. “We don’t want to get overly excited about another proposed NHL offer. But what was presented only reinforced the idea for Hamilton to have an NHL team.”

Councillors this week agreed to negotiate a memorandum of understanding between the city and Katz Entertainment Holdings Corporation, which owns the Oilers. The negotiations would involved the group taking over Copps Coliseum, the proposed Pan Am Games stadium for multi-use purposes, and possibly other operations of Hamilton Entertainment and Convention Facility Inc. HECFI, a city owned corporation, operates the arena, Hamilton Convention Centre, and Hamilton Place. The group would pay the operating costs of the arena and stadium. It is unclear if the group would pay the cost for a new arena or upgrades to Copps.

The MOU, approved by council after a long incamera meeting, could include building a new arena, or refurbishing Copps, which was constructed in 1985.

Pat LaForge, president of the Oilers, insisted under questioning from councillors his group’s discussion with the city isn’t about relocating the Oilers to Hamilton, or bringing an NHL team to the city.

“This is not about the Oilers,” said LaForge. “This is not about another NHL team in Hamilton. We can’t own another team. We are not here to provide you with one.”

LaForge said he has spoken to NHL commissioner Gary Bettman, who is aware of the Edmonton Oilers’ situation.

Major League Soccer is also aware that his group was interested in a possible franchise for Hamilton at the new Pan Am stadium, said LaForge.

The Rexall Sports Corp. is currently in a battle with the city of Edmonton over the development of a 16-acre site in the downtown to create a $1 billion entertainment district. When Daryl Katz purchased the Oilers, he pledged $100 million toward the development of a new downtown arena.

LaForge said this isn’t about the Oilers trying to use Hamilton as leverage to get a better deal from Edmonton city officials.

“We are in the business of creating a better facility in Edmonton,” said LaForge.

Councillor Sam Merulla said after Research in Motion billionaire Jim Basillie’s attempts last year to purchase the Phoenix Coyotes and relocate it to Hamilton failed, Hamilton residents are “tired of being manipulated” in the hopes of getting a long-sought NHL team.

LaForge understood, saying residents “must be feeling like ground hog day.”

Added Ward 5 councillor Chad Collins, “This is not about bringing an NHL team to Hamilton.”

LaForge, who initiated the discussions with HECFI and eventually with the city last fall, was accompanied to the council meeting by Ted Tanner, executive vice-president of AEG, a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Anschultz Company, which oversees such facilities as the Staples Center in Los Angles, home to the L.A. Lakes, and the Colosseum at Caesar’s Palace in Las Vegas. Don Robertson, president and general manager of the Dundas Real McCoys senior hockey team was also in the audience.

LaForge lavished praise on Hamilton, saying the group is interested in expanding its operations, and found the city an untapped gem. He painted a vision of a Hamilton entertainment district that extended from the waterfront, along Bay Street, to the downtown with a new or refurbished downtown area in its core.

“There is something interesting happening in Hamilton,” he said. “I’m intrigued by the (waterfront) property. I like it.”

A presentation by Deloitte found Hamilton could financially support an NHL team, including enticing much-needed corporate money, and selling about 15,000 season tickets.

“It’s great to see us on the cusp,” said Ancaster councillor Lloyd Ferguson.

[SteelTown]

Edmonton Oilers owner Daryl Katz is talking with the City of Hamilton about taking control of Copps Coliseum and the Pan Am Stadium

http://thespec.com/videogallery/798857

[SteelTown]

Lefko: Katz, Hamilton mayor make big play

June 29, 2010
http://www.sportsnet.ca/football/cfl/2010/06/29/lefko_katz_hamilton/

Edmonton Oilers' owner Daryl Katz is looking to become a major player in Hamilton by buying Copps Coliseum and committing to a stadium complex for the 2015 Pan American Games while developing a multi-purpose business/retail infrastructure around it. Sources told sportsnet.ca he's also looking to purchase the Hamilton Tiger-Cats, even though the CFL club isn't for sale.

In fact, Hamilton mayor Fred Eisenberger indicated a couple weeks ago at a charity fundraiser that he had an individual willing to buy the Ticats, even though he didn't contact the team's owner Bob Young, who has never actually publicly said he wants to sell the team.

Young is at odds with Hamilton City Council and Eisenberger, who have approved a site by the West Harbour for a 15,000-seat facility that can be expanded to accommodate at least 30,000 and make it viable for the Tiger-Cats to play. They currently play at Ivor Wynne Stadiun, which can hold a maximum of 30,000, but rarely has attendance of more than 20,000 and is in need of major repairs. A source said Young is prepared to put $10 million into the new stadium. The city has already committed $60 million.

According to a source, Young only learned of Katz's plan on Monday night and may feel undermined by what has happened behind his back.

Katz entertained the idea of buying the Toronto Argonauts earlier this year, but backed out because he deduced there was no way to make money. It has been losing millions annually despite all kinds of attempts by various owners to turn the franchise around.

Katz is believed to be primarily concerned about developing a business/entertainment complex at the West Harbour site and owning the Ticats is a secondary interest. If he was successful in developing the West Harbour area, the stadium could be an add-on facility for events besides just football.

Sources said Katz has an interest in Copps because he believes it can make money as a privately owned and managed complex. It is run by the city-managed Hamilton Entertainment and Convention Facilities Inc.

Katz is partnering with AEG Live, the company owned by Philip Anschutz, who owns the Los Angeles Kings and their Staples Centre arena. Anschutz also owns a building in Kansas City. He is successful in running arenas through his entertainment company, which promotes rock concerts and live events. AEG Live was scheduled to produce Michael Jackson's shows in England.

There has been speculation Katz, who has made a fortune as owner of the franchised pharmacy company Rexall, may want to make Copps attractive for a future NHL team. A source told sportsnet.ca that is blatantly untrue.

Young meanwhile disapproves of the new stadium's proposed location, claiming publicly he would lose $7 million a year because it does not offer amenities for parking, nor does it offer visibility for a company willing to pay for naming rights. His preferred destination is a site near the highway.

While the $7 million figure seems staggering, sources say he is losing $5 million annually operating the Ticats.

David Braley, who owns the Toronto Argonauts and B.C. Lions and is a major financial player in the Hamilton area, has been critical of the city's decision to pick a site without first developing a business plan. Braley had been a board member with the Pan Am Games Committee and had been reluctant to make his comments public. However, when he was named a senator on May 20, he had to give up his seat on the board and that allowed him to make his feelings known.

The Pan Am Games committee has set a deadline of July 8 for the stadium issue to be resolved. A facilitator was hired on May 18 to bring Young and the City closer together, but they are farther apart now, a source said.

There have been suggestions if the stadium site is not resolved by the deadline, the Games committee will look to Varsity Stadium in Toronto and expand it from 7,200 to 15,000. The stadium is needed only for track and field.

Young, a Hamilton native who made billions in the Internet software business, became owner of the Tiger-Cats after the 2003 season. He paid a reported $2 million to the Canadian Football League, which took over the team from its previous owners in mid-season for failing to pay its bills.

He has also gone through presidents, general managers, coaches and high-priced players with regularity due to inexperience operating a sports franchise and placing trust in individuals who were poor fits. That said, the current football operation, managed by Bob O'Billovich, appears to be the strongest since it last won the Grey Cup in 1999.

The business operation is struggling, though president Scott Mitchell indicated on a conference call on May 11 that the team has eclipsed its season-ticket numbers and corporate-revenue totals from 2009. No numbers were provided to indicate the season-ticket numbers nor the revenue totals. As a public company, the Tiger-Cats do not have to reveal their financials.

Young is only the latest owner to lose millions operating the team.

Hamilton hasn't hosted the Grey Cup since 1996 and interest in the team has ebbed because the product on the field has underperformed. Young has not had one winning season and has regularly been at or near the basement of the eight-team league.

[thistleclub]

New player revives NHL hopes (http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/799099)

Emma Reilly
The Hamilton Spectator
(Jun 30, 2010)

Hamilton is entertaining a proposal that has the potential to simultaneously solidify the location of a Pan Am stadium and revive Hamilton's dream of an NHL team.

Edmonton Oilers owner Daryl Katz, with advice from entertainment giant AEG, is making a pitch for control of Copps Coliseum and the future Pan Am stadium in order to potentially house professional sports teams.

Katz is also floating the possibility of an entertainment precinct around the west harbour and either the redevelopment of Copps Coliseum or a new NHL-calibre arena.

Yesterday, city council heard an outline of the proposal and directed city staff to carry on negotiations with Katz's company, Katz Entertainment Holdings Corporation.

Council will make a decision about whether to sign a memorandum of understanding by Aug. 30. Details of the memorandum are confidential.

If the deal goes ahead, it positions the city to host an NHL team should the league allow a hockey team to come to Hamilton.

The deal would also have a dramatic impact on the economy of the downtown core and waterfront precinct.

Both the city and Katz' representatives stressed yesterday's developments aren't final. Even if the city signed a memorandum of understanding, it wouldn't be binding. And despite AEG's video presentation to council about their successful entertainment precincts in other cities, the company isn't yet formally involved with the project, attending yesterday's meeting only as guests of Katz's group.

However, Mayor Fred Eisenberger said the proposal is serious.

"I would say it's much more than just 'Let's go back and have discussions,'" Eisenberger said. "There are no guarantees. But if we did nothing, we would absolutely get nothing."

Katz's company was represented in Hamilton yesterday by Patrick LaForge, president and CEO of the Edmonton Oilers. LaForge said that after watching millionaire Jim Balsillie and the NHL fight over bringing the Phoenix Coyotes to Hamilton, Katz's company decided to move in and take a "more professional and more strategic" approach to the city's sports prospects.

LaForge formally approached HECFI -- the city agency that controls Copps, Hamilton Place, and the Convention Centre -- last fall, shortly after a deal with Balsillie locking up Copps for an NHL team expired.

In mid-April, LaForge signed an agreement with HECFI that expires tomorrow (July 1). It outlined Katz's interest in Copps. Details aren't known as that agreement is also confidential.

LaForge had to bring the Oilers' proposal to council yesterday both because of the imminent deadline and to secure council's approval to continue negotiations.

While LaForge was clear that Katz wants control of Copps, Hamilton Place and the Convention Centre aren't formally on the table. However, the city has left it open for Katz to take over all three facilities if he is interested.

It isn't clear how the proposal will affect the Hamilton Tiger Cats, who are currently tangled in a facilitation process about the location of the Pan Am stadium. Cats representatives were notably absent from a news conference held immediately after yesterday's council meeting, and president Scott Mitchell said he only heard about the Oilers' proposal over the weekend.

Mitchell stressed the team wasn't for sale and he hasn't received any offers.

And while the Ticats say they won't move their team to the city's preferred location at the west harbour, LaForge is extremely positive about that site.

"I'm intrigued by the property," he said yesterday. "(The west harbour) is motivation for me to go back to my boss and say, 'There is something interesting going on in Hamilton and we should look at it."

LaForge was adamant the Oilers won't be moving to Hamilton and the proposal wasn't about getting leverage for a proposed massive new stadium and entertainment precinct in Edmonton.

Katz is currently fighting for public money for a new rink in that city, part of a $1.5 billion redevelopment plan that would include hotels, restaurants, office towers and a casino.

However, Hamilton's potential deal with Katz revolves around attracting an NHL team here. Unlike Balsillie, Katz's group are already NHL insiders. LaForge said NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman was aware of his proposal and his presence in Hamilton yesterday.

If Katz took over ownership of Copps, the arena would need a complete overhaul to meet NHL standards, LaForge said. Alternatively, Katz's group would consider building a new arena to host a hockey team -- though exactly where remains to be seen.

"The best-before date regarding (Copps hosting an NHL team) is rapidly running out, if it's not done already," he said.

Part of LaForge's presentation to council included a Deloitte report that confirmed Hamilton's economy could support an NHL team, prepared by the same consultant commissioned by the city to study the harbour stadium proposal.


THE PLAYERS

Daryl Katz, the low-profile billionaire who sees Hamilton as a sports and entertainment destination, is an NHL insider who operates one of North America's largest drugstore chains. The Edmonton Oilers owner is worth $1.4 billion US.

AEG is a sports and entertainment giant that owns major league sports teams, operates arenas and concert halls, and promotes live events, including the tour that Michael Jackson planned for London before his death last year.

SAY WHAT

"The west harbour is motivation for me to go back to my boss and say: 'There's something interesting going on in Hamilton and we should look at it.' "
-- Patrick LaForge, president and CEO, Edmonton Oilers

"This is an interesting development from the city when you're supposed to be working in good faith in a facilitation process."
-- Scott Mitchell, president, Hamilton Tiger-Cats

[SteelTown]

Katz stadium proposal is a game-changer

June 30, 2010
Andrew Dreschel
http://www.thespec.com/Opinions/article/799216

There's good-faith negotiating and there's bad-faith negotiating.

And from the Hamilton Tiger-Cats' perspective, city council's willingness to consider handing over management of the proposed Pan Am stadium to the Katz group from Edmonton falls solidly in the second camp.

According to Tiger-Cats president Scott Mitchell, the startling proposal undermines discussions with Michael Fenn, the facilitator brought in to help solve the disagreement between the club and the city over the west harbour site.

"We've acted in good faith through this process the whole time, " Mitchell said. "Obviously, things like this represent something other than good faith."

Yesterday's bombshell landed just nine days before the July 8 target date for finding a solution to an impasse that threatens both the future of the team and the stadium project.

Mayor Fred Eisenberger denies that talking about turning over stadium operations to billionaire Daryl Katz undercuts the city's negotiations with the Ticats.

The mayor insists those discussions are only about the stadium location, not the business arrangements connected to the facility.

...........

http://www.thespec.com/Opinions/article/799216

[c@taract_soulj@h]

:sly:

Is it bad that I shook my head while reading the above article this morning?

[SteelTown]

Pan Am stadium facilitator tight-lipped

June 30, 2010
JOHN KERNAGHAN
http://www.thespec.com/News/BreakingNews/article/799405

Pan Am stadium faciliator Michael Fenn has completed talks with the city and the Tiger-Cats on a location for the venue and is poised to write his report.

Fenn confirmed talks and research around the issue were done but would not characterize any aspect of the process of give an indication of his findings, citing confidentiality in the terms of reference.

This comes as Toronto 2015 CEO Ian Troop said July 8 is the firm deadline by which he expects the city to identify a site under the host corporation's venue verification program.

The Tiger-Cats have serious issues with the city's west harbour location and had the opportunity in the facilitaton process to identify other sites.

Troop said he did not know enough about the interest of Darryl Katz and AEG in the west harbour site to comment on the impact of that interest in the simmering stadium dispute.

"I think Michael (Fenn) is doing a very good job and we're in the 11th hour," Troop said. "Sometimes a lot of things happen in the 11th hour."

He said he is hopeful of a Hamilton solution but added "you bet we're looking at alternative sites (outside Hamilton), We need to control our destiny. We have to make sure we've got fallbacks."

[highwater]

If the talks are completed, what's Mitchell getting all huffy about?

[markbarbera]

Katz stadium proposal is a game-changer

June 30, 2010
Andrew Dreschel
http://www.thespec.com/Opinions/article/799216

There's good-faith negotiating and there's bad-faith negotiating.

And from the Hamilton Tiger-Cats' perspective, city council's willingness to consider handing over management of the proposed Pan Am stadium to the Katz group from Edmonton falls solidly in the second camp.

According to Tiger-Cats president Scott Mitchell, the startling proposal undermines discussions with Michael Fenn, the facilitator brought in to help solve the disagreement between the club and the city over the west harbour site.

"We've acted in good faith through this process the whole time, " Mitchell said. "Obviously, things like this represent something other than good faith."

Yesterday's bombshell landed just nine days before the July 8 target date for finding a solution to an impasse that threatens both the future of the team and the stadium project.

Mayor Fred Eisenberger denies that talking about turning over stadium operations to billionaire Daryl Katz undercuts the city's negotiations with the Ticats.

The mayor insists those discussions are only about the stadium location, not the business arrangements connected to the facility.

...........

http://www.thespec.com/Opinions/article/799216

A significant portion of this article was 'edited' out of this post. Here is the remainder of the article, continuing from the cut-off point. I've put the really important bits in bold font:


Mitchell strongly disagrees. He says making a new stadium sustainable for the Tiger-Cats is all about finances and revenue streams, including operating and management arrangements.

"Every revenue stream has to come into play, " Mitchell said. "It's proven over and over again ... that the tenant and the manager of a facility have to be on the same page and, ultimately, that is one person.

"That is one organization that is managing the facility and owning the team."

Fenn, the man in the middle, also disagrees with Eisenberger.

He says his terms of reference as a facilitator are clear that the stadium location is the key issue, but that finding a way out of the impasse necessarily means talking about how business operations are structured.

"There would clearly be an implication for how investments are made, how facilities are managed ... how they would be organized, " Fenn said.

"That would quite legitimately be part of the conversations."

For his part, city manager Chris Murray argues that the two sets of talks are not in conflict because the proposed agreement with Katz (pronounced "Kates") won't go before council until the end of August, presumably long after discussions with the Ticats are wrapped up.

Regardless, it's hard to escape the impression that the city is either trying to apply pressure to or do an end-run around the franchise.

The buzz coming out of the meetings with Fenn has not been good. Positions are still polarized. The Cats still don't want to move to the west harbour and the city doesn't want to build elsewhere.

Meanwhile, rumours are flying around that Eisenberger is hinting he may have a new buyer for the Cats up his sleeve.

Mitchell is well aware of those rumblings, which, reputedly, also made the rounds at Eisenberger's recent hush-hush $500-a-ticket election fundraiser.

Be that as it may, Mitchell says the team is not for sale. Nobody has approached owner Bob Young with a purchase offer. And Young doesn't intend to put it on the market.

That's important to bear in mind because the Katz group is certainly being coy about whether they're interested in acquiring the Cats. Asked directly at yesterday's media conference, Edmonton Oilers president Patrick LaForge, representing Katz's group, refused to give a yes-or-no answer.

"I'm fascinated by how all this turns out, but I'd be hard-pressed to put ourselves in the middle of this, " he said.

Fascination is the word for it. The stadium debate has plainly undergone a seismic shift.

Also significant is Fenn's declaration that the discussions had concluded almost immediately after the Eisenberger-Katz floor show. I wonder which Canadian city will become the new home of the Tiger-Cat CFL franchise...

[SteelTown]

We aren't allowed to post full commentary articles anymore. Online newspaper articles need viewers to click on the link to make money from advertisements.

Normally Mr. Dreschel's articles aren't posted online so that's when it's okay to post the whole article in my opinion. But if Mr. Dreschel's article does have a web link than you can only post a few paragraphs and end it with a link.

[markbarbera]

Good to know. I just reviewed the new rules here (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/announcement.php?f=18&a=313). The guidline says a short paragraph and some specific citation rules, so we all probably need to refine article quoting practices a bit more yet.

Dreschel's article in today's Spec confirms my suspicions. The facilitation discussions have ended with no resolution, meaning the city will not budge on the Barton and Tiffany site, so the Ticats will not be tenants there. Now Pan Am organizers will need to reconsider placing a stadium in Hamilton now that there is no signifcant sports legacy advantage, paticularly when there is a competing legacy opportunity to place the stadium in the Toronto area with post-game use by Braley's Argos.

So the city's non-compromise postion has lead to a situation where Hamilton is likely to lose the Pan Am stadium and the Ticats need to look for another hometown. Well done, Eisenberger. I'm still holding out for a last-minute hail Mary pass to save this mess (Hamilton is famous for those) but things don't look promising thus far.

[thistleclub]

Pan-Am stadium talks: No deal (http://www.thespec.com/Opinions/Columnist/article/800466)
"Facilitation' fails with one week to deadline

July 02, 2010
Andrew Dreschel
Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/Opinions/Columnist/article/800466

The facilitated talks between the Hamilton Tiger-Cats and the city have reached the end of the road without an agreement. After more than three weeks of negotiations, the Tiger-Cats and the city are no closer to resolving their dispute over building the proposed Pan Am stadium in the west harbour. The continuing impasse not only casts doubts on the viability of going ahead with a new stadium to replace the aging Ivor Wynne, it raises questions about the long-term sustainability of the football team in Hamilton.

- -

In full here (http://www.thespec.com/Opinions/Columnist/article/800466).

[SteelTown]

Hopefully LaForge and Mitchell will talk over the week and come to an agreement for a possible tenant arrangement, such as Argos and Rogers with the Skydome.

Now that the facilitation is over can't the Ti Cats release their preferred stadium locations? Let us know on July 8th when the deadline is July 9th?

[realcity]

This is ridiculous. I am very worried. I go back to my statements made when the west harbour location was first chosen.... that I said there is 5% chance that it will be built there. It now looks like 95% chance it won't be built in Hamilton at all. Fred would rather have NO stadium than it have it built anywhere else.

To answer Mark, my guesses for the new home of the Cats, Halton, or K/W.

Why not, Halton seems to have plundered everything else, businesses, new downtown condos, a university campus, our younger affluent population, next would is our civic amenities.


I had little hope in this facilitator, other than squandering the time limit. Like I said, they should've cut to the chase a month ago. Had council revote; West Harbour or Confed Park? Knowing this time when they vote, that a vote for West Harbour means no Cats involvement and possibly no PanAm stadium in Hamilton at all.

So cast your votes, yeah and nay? No more studies, no more advice, no facilitators, time is up. Make a decision, the facts have changed. Do you change your mind or stubbornly squander perhaps the best thing to happen to Hamilton in a very very long time.

We might even lose the velodrome too. So now I wonder if this happens, would Hamilton even part of the PanAm Games?

[markbarbera]

Steeltown, what would be the point in the Ticat organization discussing anything about their list of preferred locations at the stage in the game? Eisenberger and the city refuse to consider any other site, so it's endgame for the Hamilton Tiger Cats.

Part of the business case to make the Ticats financially viable was Ticat management of the facility. Eisenberger secretly spun a deal with Katz to manage the stadium he has planned for Barton and Tiffany along with the rest of HECFI (a non-binding agreement by the way), effectively hobbling any chance of the Ticats reaching a financially sustainable business plan for this particular site.

Given the continued bad faith demonstated by Eisenberger's actions regarding the city/Ticat stadium impasse, it is no big surprise to see these talks fail. Now, I would have to decide between shifting support to the most local CFL team (Toronto Argos) or keep supporting the Tiger-Cats in Ottawa, Hlifax or wherever Young ultimately lands his franchise. At least the Argos will likely have a nice new Pan Am stadium in North York to play out of soon. Thanks again, Mayor Eisenberger!

Realcity, my money's on the Tiger-Cats ending up in Ottawa. Their refurbished stadium will be ready about the same time the lease is up at Ivor Wynne.

[realcity]

Ya Ottawa most likely. Ottawa has our NHL team too.

So Hamilton continues on it's slide of becoming less and less relevant. The Spectator should move to Burlington, (Hamilton Magazine/BIZ is already published in Burlington). So should CHCH and Burlington should apply for a CBC outlet, maybe get the one Hamilton was supposed to get.

I guess this off-topic, but when looking at the PanAm Games Stadium loss in a big picture, with all the siphoning of this city, I won't be surprised.

[SteelTown]

Mayor Fred is just one vote in council. If we could get the the Ticats preferred stadium locations coucilors could debate and vote united.

[bigguy1231]

Quit your whinning people. The Ticats are not going anywhere else and the stadium will be built here whether the Ticats are on board or not.

There is no other city willing to put up the money for a stadium. Why would the Pan Am commitee move the stadium somewhere else. They are going to have to spend for a stadium no matter where it is. At least here the city is willing to enhance the size and scope of the facility by investing it's own money.

If Bob Young doesn't want to be a part of it he could sell the team. I am sure there are few groups out there willing to take over the team and put it in the new facility at the West Harbour location.

[BCTed]

Realcity, my money's on the Tiger-Cats ending up in Ottawa. Their refurbished stadium will be ready about the same time the lease is up at Ivor Wynne.

Oh please. I am willing to put my money up against your money. I firmly believe that any talk of the Tiger-Cats leaving Hamilton is just plain silly.

[markbarbera]

Quit your whinning people. The Ticats are not going anywhere else and the stadium will be built here whether the Ticats are on board or not.

There is no other city willing to put up the money for a stadium. Why would the Pan Am commitee move the stadium somewhere else. They are going to have to spend for a stadium no matter where it is. At least here the city is willing to enhance the size and scope of the facility by investing it's own money.

If Bob Young doesn't want to be a part of it he could sell the team. I am sure there are few groups out there willing to take over the team and put it in the new facility at the West Harbour location.

I'm afraid you are wrong on every count, bigguy. The stadium ultimately becoming the future home of the Ticats was the key legacy element that influenced the decision to award the stadium to Hamilton. Without the Ticats on board there is no tangible legacy element to justify putting a stadium here, especially with the competing interest from the Argo organization for the Pan Am stadium legacy. Pan Am will surely select the North York Argo stadium option over the wishy washy non-commital "nod-nod-wink-wink" style of "agreement" Eisenberger has made with Katz. (i.e not legally binding with details not to be hammered out until sometime in August after a business case assessesing the value of such a deal is conducted)

Bob Young is not going to sell his CFL franchise. Why should he when there are other cities actively seeking a CFL franchise? Ottawa is practically rolling out the red carpet for any CFL team by preparing a 25,000 seat stadium at no capital cost to prospective tenants. After the treatment this city has given Young, who could blame him for saying enough and sending his moving trucks down the 401 to where the value of a CFL franchise is recognized for what it really is (you never know what you have until it's gone, as any Ottawa football fan would attest to).

And, for the record, the money the city of Hamilton was to front for the Pan Am stadium was to produce the 15,000 seat base model, not to enhance its size or scope in any way. The onus of covering expansion and enhancement costs was being put on the Ticat organization. But of course all of that is purely academic now.

[markbarbera]

Ticats on the move?
Perry Lefko, sportsnet.ca
July 2, 2010
http://www.sportsnet.ca/football/cfl/2010/07/02/tciats_offers/

Three municipalities within close proximity to Hamilton have contacted Tiger-Cats’ owner Bob Young about moving his team and building a stadium for it, sources tell Sporstnet.

It’s believed the municipalities are Burlington, Oakville and Mississauga, and that Young will announce what he plans to do with his team some time next week. If Young decides to move the team, Burlington is likely the frontrunner, sources say.

The cities contacted Young earlier this week when it was announced that Edmonton Oilers’ owner Daryl Katz and partners AEG Live wanted to create an infrastructure in the area that the city wants to build the new stadium for the 2015 Pan Am Games, along with buying some city-owned facilities, such as Copps Coliseum.

It all came as a bombshell to Young, sources say, who only found out about the development with Katz and the City the day before it became public.

It effectively undermined the facilitation process that had been going on between the city and Young over the stadium site. Young wants a stadium built near the highway for great accessibility and amenities for parking, along with greater visibility for a company wishing to buy naming rights. Overall, there have been some 10 sites proposed.

It would take at least two years for a new stadium to be built, which would mean Young would keep the Ticats at its current home, Ivor Wynne Stadium.

The City has been criticized for naming a site without having a business plan.

...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/football/cfl/2010/07/02/tciats_offers/

[markbarbera]

Could Tiger-cats skip town?
Neighbouring communities eye move by CFL franchise after Pan-Am Stadium flap escalates
David Naylor, Globe and Mail
Published on Friday, Jul. 02, 2010 10:45PM EDT
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/could-tiger-cats-skip-town/article1627358/

The fight over the location of Hamilton's proposed Pan-Am Games Stadium has raised the possibility of the CFL's Tiger-Cats moving out of town.

This week, in the midst of a facilitation process between the Tiger-Cats and the City of Hamilton, the city received a proposed memorandum of understanding with Edmonton Oilers owner Daryl Katz that would give him management control of the Pan-Am Games stadium.

A vote on that proposal is not slated until late August but the city's dealing with Katz infuriated Tiger-Cat owner Bob Young and team president Scott Mitchell.

And it also apparently led some neighbouring municipalities to explore whether the Tiger-Cats might be willing to leave Hamilton and bring the stadium with them.

“I got several calls from mayors and leaders of municipalities that wanted an intro to Scott and Bob, which I did,” said Hamilton businessman Ron Foxcroft, a significant player on the city's sports and business scene. “I will not say who they are because I would be betraying confidence. But that's that truth.”

In May, the Tiger-Cats and the city agreed to go to a facilitator to settle their differences on the stadium, both where it should go and how it should be managed.

But whatever trust existed between the city and the football team appears thin.

“I was told [by other municipalities] that negotiating the management of the new stadium [with Katz] appears to undermine the facilitation process,” said Foxcroft. “I will say it has created a terrible and confusing state in our municipality.”

...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/could-tiger-cats-skip-town/article1627358/

[thistleclub]

Correct me if I'm missing something here, but what seems to be missing is a municipality with the means and will to build a $150-200m facility without benefit of provincial or federal funding, and with negligible buy-in from the franchise. You might make a case for Ottawa because of the refurbed stadium. Aside from that, Halton is almost built out in terms of residential and legitimate business lands, and politicized in terms of greenbelt; it's extremely unlikely that they would absorb a stadium and the parking considerations that come with it. It seems as if the question will be whether all involved can hang on another 10-15 years, since the centenary Commonwealth Games may be Hamilton's to lose... although making such a hash of the Pan Ams is not much of a confidence-builder.

Again, I blame both sides for this situation. The Cats have been watching Ivor Wynne crumble around them for as long as Young has owned the team, but they've been content to let someone else solve the problem (eg: 10 alternate sites and no business thinking attached to any of them). They were coy about money and amenable with whatever results came out of the process until their 11th-hour protests, a move viewed by some as a negotiation tactic. The City is equally culpable. They should have made every effort to get the Mitchell to at least sign off every step of the way, so that it was more obvious that he was a part of the process and not just the guy in at the end of the conference table in the yellow and black Snuggie. By failing to fully and visibly engage the Cats in the selection process, the City left open the possibility of being (or being painted) the bad guy. They knew the franchise's financial history, they knew about the Cats' sweetheart rent, and if they had they had no intention of negotiating with the team on location they should have at least created a paper trail that made the team more of a partner so that when they inevitably balked, they could be brought to heel. Piss-poor process all around.

The Katz vs. Cats stuff is just noise, IMHO. It's entirely likely that there'll be third-party private sector management at any other facility they would jump to. And not that they won't, but if they do decide to move, they'll forfeit the biggest leverage they have, namely the emotional legacy that's entwined with the city's self-image, if not soul. And all of the glorious history gets put in a time capsule, meaningless to the new fans, who'll be seeing a team at year zero. Factor all that out of the equation and they're essentially just a feisty CFL franchise with a tenuous business model struggling to claw their way out of the basement.

[thistleclub]

Clash of vision over stadium (http://thespec.com/Opinions/article/801108)

July 3, 2010
Howard Elliott
The Hamilton Spectator
http://thespec.com/Opinions/article/801108

The Ticats are an important tenant, and part of Hamilton's history and fabric. But they play 10 games a year here. The vast majority of the overall stadium bill is being paid for by taxpayers, through local, provincial and federal taxes. Hopefully, some agreement can be found that serves the interests of all parties. But if not, the interests of the bill-paying majority must come first.

[markbarbera]

Elliott does have a habit of oversimplifying his editorial and missing the big picture.

Where is the value to taxpayers in a stadium anywhere in the city if it is built without any major sports franchise as a tenant?

If the Ticats are not on board, the interests of the bill-paying taxpayers would be best served by deferring the stadium to another municipality. Hamilton doesn't need another white elephant.

Any of the suitor cities approaching Young know that the Pan Am stadium will follow the franchise wherever it lands. Surely Burlington can cover the $40 mil Hamilton was going to put into the stadium - heck, they are probably in a much better financial position to do so.

[thistleclub]

Any of the suitor cities approaching Young know that the Pan Am stadium will follow the franchise wherever it lands. Surely Burlington can cover the $40 mil Hamilton was going to put into the stadium - heck, they are probably in a much better financial position to do so.

Burlington has only just managed to appease the NEC with a 5,000 seat demi-stadium (http://www.flamboroughreview.com/news/article/294574) (1,500 permanent, 3,500 temporary) for its Kerns Road location after a five-month procedural detour; a 15,000-30,000 seat stadium could be a lot to swallow. They're heading into a fractious election season facing an electorate that's increasingly irked about the council's tax-and-spend track record over the last term, some of it on essentials ($60m to the Jo Brant expansion), some of it on non-essentials (a $36m performing arts centre slated for opening in 2011, a partially completed $9m pier that's had $6m of work done on it but is deadlocked in legal disputes). And they're habitually allergic to residential tax increases. My guess is that they won't be in a hurry to roll the dice on a warm weather venue whose sole tenant will cover ten day' usage and attract mobs of Hamiltonians. Even if Burlington requested the equivalent of the Cats' 90-day time-out to regroup, the facility will slip out of the region.

[SteelTown]

So the Ticats have ten preferred stadium locations, which they won't release to the public, and none of locations has a business plan. Yet they critcize the City with no business plan for the west harbour plan, even though it's been in the books for well over a decade.

Still waiting for the Ticats poll results from season ticket holders.

[markbarbera]

So the Ticats have ten preferred stadium locations, which they won't release to the public, and none of locations has a business plan. Yet they critcize the City with no business plan for the west harbour plan, even though it's been in the books for well over a decade.

Still waiting for the Ticats poll results from season ticket holders.

And why do you think they have not released the list of potential sites? Isn't there a confidentiality agreement between the parties not to publicly discuss details until the facilitation process is complete? Granted, Young's team seems to be the only party resprecting fenn's condition for confidentiality. Besides, what kind of businessman would reveal potential sites publicly when this city is so overrun with unscrupulous land speculators looking to make a quick buck.

Hamiltonians are going to hear a lot come July 8, much of which they will not like. Fenn is furious with the city's handling of this process, and I am sure he won't mince words in his report. I am also pretty sure Bob Young will have a few things to say on his Ticat website on or around the 8th as well.

Of course, the real disappointment will be July 9 when the Pan Am committee announces a move to their plan B for the stadium as it looks outside of Hamilton for a new stadium site.

[SteelTown]

The facilitation process ended a few days again didn't it?

[markbarbera]

The last meeting of the parties was on Wednesday, but the process does not end until Fenn submits his report on July 8.

[SteelTown]

We’ll sit and fiddle our thumbs around until the report is printed out of the fax machine. We all know what the report will say, both sides are guilty, no agreement could be reached and more time is needed.

[markbarbera]

Ian Troop has already said the city and the Ticats need to have agreement on the site by July 9. If there is no deal then, the stadium will go elsewhere. Troop already has alternate site locations in mind.

[realcity]

It's strange how people do not want to look at how dire this situation is. "O no one else will pony up the money". "No other city has space". "Cats are bluffing". This is serious, we are on the verge of losing the cats, more than ever before and i doubt PanAm will even bother building 15k stadium here.

As if Hamilton is flush with money, vs Halton and Peel??? We're the poorest big city in Canada, and not getting any richer.

PanAm already said they 'would entertain other locations if the Cats and City can't agree on a location'. What do you think that means? maybe? No it means it's gone. We gave you a free gift and all you could think about was cleaning up a brownfield and justify the location because it was near an underused park.

I've said, why not Burlington? They've plundered everything else from Hamilton. Bay City TiCats playing at the AIC Stadium. On land on the 403 between AIC and and 6 North exit, near the Aldershot station. You just watch.

PanAm committee will agree to that location, closer to athletes village, right off a highway. They offered it to Hamilton first to help us. And we're too stupid to accept it. You know what, Hamilton gets what it deserves then, nothing!

Welcome to Sudbury South, only Hamilton happens to be location in the hub of the Golden Horseshoe and somehow seems to avoid all the prosperity around it.

People lose their minds when you say "highway" in a post. Guess what? They exist and for a reason, deal with it.

Mayor Fred will go down in history as the person who lost the Cats on his watch.

I'm already negotiating terms to leave this city anyway. Then I can watch it crumble and have it not bother me anymore. It's making me ill watching Hamilton make mistake after mistake after mistake.

[realcity]

We’ll sit and fiddle our thumbs around until the report is printed out of the fax machine. We all know what the report will say, both sides are guilty, no agreement could be reached and more time is needed.

SteelTown you're right. That's exactly what the report will say. And PanAm will say "time's up, too late".

Like the city needs more time to vote on area rating too.

This city needs more time alright, like a 100 years.

July 8 report better have a location or PanAm Stadium will be built in Aldershot. Heck even current season ticket holders will probably prefer to travel to Aldershot than IW or West Harbour. After the game they could visit a nice safe Burlington Waterfront and downtown shops and restaurants.

This might be biggest fumble Hamilton has made since Gore Park Massacre. IT's even bigger. We'll be stuck with a vacant IW in the middle of the city next to a giant vacant high school, with a vacant former glorious Royal Connaught, with bi annual crumbling buildings in the core, a new federal building built only to leave the former one empty, an empty Eaton Centre, and on and on, for 100 years...

I forgot to mention Copps will lose the Bulldogs in 3 years too, when they move to Laval by the majority BURLINGTON owner. Add Copps to the list.

And no one is to blame for this except city council lead by Mayor Fred, I'm sorry if I the see facts.

[thistleclub]

It's strange how people do not want to look at how dire this situation is. "O no one else will pony up the money". "No other city has space". "Cats are bluffing". This is serious, we are on the verge of losing the cats, more than ever before and i doubt PanAm will even bother building 15k stadium here.

I don't trivialize the stakes, but I'm also mindful of the fact that not everyone is necessarily hot to adopt a CFL franchise. The reason we're even having this discussion in Hamilton is because the Cats are in our DNA. Otherwise they would have ceased to be long before we entertained a Pan Am bid. Ottawa is a unique case because they're trying to heal an old wound, but I think that many municipalities would balk at the prospect, especially when Hostco would demand a snap commitment. That's not to say that the Cats won't wander. But having bemoaned his financial myopia recently, I doubt that Bob Young will make a hasty or emotional decision with regard to relocating. It will be purely business.

I've said, why not Burlington? They've plundered everything else from Hamilton. Bay City TiCats playing at the AIC Stadium. On land on the 403 between AIC and and 6 North exit, near the Aldershot station. You just watch.

The fact that the land along the 403/North Service Road is highly visible and shovel-ready may be a detriment as far as building a stadium there. It's earmarked for development, but Burlington is liable to want to site top-drawer businesses there that fatten the tax base: Cumis, Tascam, Deloitte & Touche, Assante, Berkshire/AIC are all along these lines. Crossroads/CTS is another quiet earner. Fernhill Private School is upper-crusty. Remember the reluctance with which Halton/Burlington set aside a combined $10m for the McMaster University DeGroote Centre of Advanced Management Studies? Now try to imagine the enthusiasm with which they'd back an investment four times that size that ran counter to their vision of business development. I have difficulty picturing that myself (if you're out that way, Hwy 5 and 6 seems just as likely, and it'd at least have the virtue of being inside of city limits), but I also didn't see this becoming such a consummate fustercluck, so who knows?

[bigguy1231]

Ian Troop has already said the city and the Ticats need to have agreement on the site by July 9. If there is no deal then, the stadium will go elsewhere. Troop already has alternate site locations in mind.

Wrong, he said the city had to decide on a location. They already have that location, the West Harbour. If the Cats don't like it move on. Building the stadium is not and never was contingent on the Ticats playing there.

[thurmas]

it's looking more and more like the argos will get a new ballpark not the ti-cats which will just inflame the rivalry more so! troop said he does have alternate sites and that york university really wants it and has plans set up for it, for them and the argos and missasauga also wants it.

[Gurnett71]

I've said, why not Burlington? They've plundered everything else from Hamilton. Bay City TiCats playing at the AIC Stadium. On land on the 403 between AIC and and 6 North exit, near the Aldershot station. You just watch.

Just for clarification, AIC no longer exists. Manulife bought both AIC and Berkshire. I don't think that Manulife has paid for stadium naming rights anywhere...could this lead to a Manulife Field in Burlington, home of the Aldershot Tiger-Cats?? You may be on to something Realcity.

[markbarbera]

Wrong, he said the city had to decide on a location. They already have that location, the West Harbour. If the Cats don't like it move on. Building the stadium is not and never was contingent on the Ticats playing there.

As reported by David Naylor in the Globe and Mail, Pan-Am Games chief executive officer Ian Troop has said having the stadium in Hamilton makes no sense without the Tiger-Cats involved.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/could-tiger-cats-skip-town/article1627358/

In other words, no Ticats, no stadium in Hamilton.

[thistleclub]

2015 Pan Am Games' hurdles coming fast: Granatstein (http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/rob_granatstein/2010/07/01/14578176.html)
By ROB GRANATSTEIN, Toronto Sun
http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/rob_granatstein/2010/07/01/14578176.html
Last Updated: July 4, 2010 2:16am

"Maple Leaf Gardens could be in, Hamilton may be out. A huge party is in, heavy security needs to be out. Cynicism is in, can it be driven out? Welcome to Ian Troop’s world. It’s only 262 weeks until the opening ceremonies of Toronto’s 2015 Pan Am Games — not that Troop, CEO of the event, is counting..... There will be 42 countries represented, 48 different sports, 19,000 volunteers, 250,000 tourists and 100,000 athletes here, so it will be hard to miss. But that’s a long way off. The more immediate issue is Hamilton, where a war of where between the city and the CFL’s Ticats has sidelined approvals for the Pan Am track stadium. No location, no dice. Do-or-die day is July 8 at Hamilton city council. If it dies, both U of T and York have said they can take the stadium, no problem."

[SteelTown]

Why don't council just select the West Harbour as the stadium location and have three months to negotiate with Katz and the Ticats for tenant arrangement. If that fails than West Harbour for stadium location is dead and go for the Ticats number one preferred stadium location (whatever that happens to be).

[scott000]

It's on the city to fix this mess, and they ought to be working day and night until they do. Having said that, the Ti-Cats need to be very reasonable to make this work also. Either way, the Cats will likely benefit because of this mess.

Option 1 - West Harbour. The city throws lots of money towards making this work (including, a willingness to share losses). Essentially, the Ti-Cats come out with a sweetheart deal, and bite the fact that it's not where they wanted.

Option 2 - Confederation Park. The city caves on location, but won't offer a single dime more to the Cats.

One of these need to happen for the team to stay in Hamilton, at this point, it almost doesn't matter which one it is.

[realcity]

Option 2. even better, no tax dollars which Hamilton doesn't have anyway, even Merulla can't not like that.

PanAm has basically said that they are building half a stadium 15k seats, you guys (Hamilton and the Cats) build the other half to make it 30k. PanAm won't build a 15k stadium even they know that is a waste of dollars for a useless stadium that size.

Either the Cats get what they want or it goes to North York. Period. And the Cats keep playing at IW -- for now.

Anyway it's done, the report by now is being drafted, and Mayor Fred/the City stood stubbornly stupid and blew this. Nice way to change Hamilton's 'image problem'.

[markbarbera]

Why don't council just select the West Harbour as the stadium location and have three months to negotiate with Katz and the Ticats for tenant arrangement. If that fails than West Harbour for stadium location is dead and go for the Ticats number one preferred stadium location (whatever that happens to be).

Ian Troop has set the deadline of July 9 for the city and the Ticats to finalize the location. Katz won't even have a binding agreement with the city until the end of August (assuming his intentions are genuine - which is a big unknown right now). If the proposed 90-day delay on finalizing the site was not acceptable to Troop when Young suggested it back on May 17, why would he find it acceptable to tag on another 90 days of uncertainty now?

[bigguy1231]

As reported by David Naylor in the Globe and Mail, Pan-Am Games chief executive officer Ian Troop has said having the stadium in Hamilton makes no sense without the Tiger-Cats involved.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/could-tiger-cats-skip-town/article1627358/

In other words, no Ticats, no stadium in Hamilton.

He said it doesn't make sense, he didn't say it won't happen. The inclusion of Hamilton was purely political and any decision to spend the money elsewhere would have to be approved first by the politicians. Mr Troop may be The CEO of the Pan Am games but his bosses reside at Queens Park.

[SteelTown]

The report will be released tomorrow.

[SteelTown]

Stadium divide a conflict of visions
Downtown development vs. parking

July 05, 2010
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/801788

Easy parking versus public transit. City-building versus sports revenue.

In a report to be released tomorrow, facilitator Michael Fenn is expected to outline those battling philosophies at play in choosing a Pan Am stadium location.

Hamilton Tiger-Cats want to create a convenient experience for the fans who want to drive to games.

The city envisions a light rail transit connection in a vibrant sector that connects the waterfront and downtown.

Sources close to the process say a big chasm still exists between the two.

The 2015 Pan Am Games host corporation is expecting a decision on the stadium location by Friday.

The corporation has been lining up fallback locations in other cities if the Hamilton end falls through.

The city sees the west harbour as a site which could accommodate people driving to the game and coming by public transit, with emphasis on the latter.

The Ticats' focus is a customer base who would come mostly by car to the east end abutting the highway, far from the downtown.

There is also a big gulf in terms of philosophy.

The city, going back to 2003, has seen the Bay and Barton Street west harbour site as fundamental to rebuilding the city.

It would help turn a brownfield into a vibrant sector connecting the waterfront and downtown.

Mayor Fred Eisenberger stresses that it aligns perfectly with the goals of the Dalton McGuinty government to link redevelopment projects to public transit.

For instance, with a Go station possible at the site, or a block away across from Liuna Station, and a light rail transit connection in the future, it could achieve what Edmonton's Commonweath Stadium has done.

The Edmonton Eskimos average close to 40,000 fans per game and about 17,000 come by light rail transit and buses.

The stadium was built for track and field at the 1978 Commonwealth Games and has just 800 parking spots, similar to what a Pan Am facility at west harbour would have.

The facility's general manager says many fans park downtown, about 1.5 kilometres away, and walk. That's similar to the west harbour scenario.

Also, the city believes the west harbour location can represent a new face for Hamilton nationally and internationally.

The north-south configuration would showcase the bay and the escarpment, features that showed well around the world during the 2003 Road World Cycling Championships.

The Ticats have insisted that stadium location is dictated by revenue streams, which they need to be sustainable in the long term.

They could not see investing substantially in a location which has limited parking access and revenue, is not near a major highway interchange and would boost the value of sponsorships and signage because thousands would drive by it daily.

The football club's advisers are principally from the retail development and financial service sectors.

They also drew on the experience of stadium consultants like Bernie Mullin, who preaches the "driveway to driveway experience."

That is the easiest and quickest way to get a fan from his home to the stadium and back home. Public transit doesn't figure largely in that equation.

Easy access also appeals to the kind of fan the Tiger-Cats feel they need, suburban folks who can boost average ticket prices to $50 by 2015.

But apart from owner Bob Young saying at one point he would be "delighted" with Confederation Park, which is off the table, the Ticats have not publicly specified one of the 10 possible alternatives.

[realcity]

Ideally we wouldn't have such an abundance of downtown parking. So if this west harbour location is so successful then the very parking lots that feed it will become buildings. Then what?

And do we know for sure in 3 years that we will have LRT?

[Jon Dalton]

I'm surprised at how LRT is thrown around so haphazardly in these articles when there isn't even a commitment for the B-line by 2015. The B-line wouldn't reach the stadium and an extension hasn't even been discussed, while the A-line is 10 or 20 years off. This uncertainty can't be helping the pro West Harbour side. Most of my support was based on its potential to speed up LRT, but since those hopes have withered so has my enthusiasm for the stadium.

[SteelTown]

From the report it's either West Harbour or East Mountain (corner of Red Hill and Linc at Stone Church)

Want extension to select a final site to August 31, extra time will allow for negotiations with Katz.

[SteelTown]

Why don't council just select the West Harbour as the stadium location and have three months to negotiate with Katz and the Ticats for tenant arrangement. If that fails than West Harbour for stadium location is dead and go for the Ticats number one preferred stadium location (whatever that happens to be).

So where's my $20,000 consultation fee?

[thistleclub]

Double Vision (http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/802359)
Facilitator's draft report adds east Mountain site as possible home for contentious stadium

John Kernaghan
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/802359
(Jul 6, 2010)

"West harbour or east Mountain: that's the short list of Pan Am stadium sites the city and the Tiger-Cats have identified in a facilitator's draft report.... The proposed east Mountain location had not previously been cited as a possible stadium site. It's located at the intersection of Red Hill Valley Parkway and Lincoln Alexander Parkway at the Mud Street-Stone Church Road East interchange. The report by facilitator Michael Fenn, which asked for comments from the parties and could change when presented to council tomorrow, recommends the city consider acquiring the property immediately while moving ahead with land assembly at the west harbour. Fenn is recommending the city confirm to Games officials and the federal and provincial governments it will build a 24,000- to 26,000-seat stadium at one of the sites with a final decision Aug. 31....."


So we're possibly on the hook for a stadium expansion with or without private sector buy-in, if Hostco gives us more time ("We can't tell you exactly where it'll be, but we can tell you it'll be about 60-70% bigger"). The east Mountain site is owned by the Ontario Realty Corporation (http://www.ontariorealty.ca) and came up as an option "late in the process." If the city went for that option, it would potentially want to shave back its financial commitment to the stadium in order to fund waterfront and downtown development, which seems consistent with the rationale that went into council's decision to release the Future Fund money in the first place.

[thistleclub]

Stadium would be 'cool', others have traffic worry (http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/802224)

Jenni Dunning
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/802225
(Jul 6, 2010)

Residents of a quiet east Mountain neighbourhood expressed mixed feelings over news a Pan Am stadium could move in beside them. Six homes on Highland Road West border the north edge of a grassy field that a draft report cites as a top contender for the new stadium. The location is boxed in by Rymal Road to the south, and Pritchard Road and Upper Mount Albion Road on either side. "I think it's stupid. They should put the Pan Am stadium somewhere else," said Tim Kerr, who lives on Highland. "(But) who cares? They'll do what they want."

[SteelTown]

Copy of the report

http://media.hamiltonspectator.com/acrobat/59/5b/d5a23235451e84329b2bdb822cf2.pdf

[BrianE]

So all this talk, back and forth, back and forth. Name calling and hysterical comments and posts and article after article in the Spec, rampant speculation. And it turns out it's all about parking after all.

What's the difference between West Harbour and Stone Church? Parking potential seems like the only thing to me.

Visability - Sure Stone Chursh is near a highway. But it's a local highway used mostly by Hamiltonians. Eyeballs are eyeballs whether they're whipping by on the Red hill our hanging out a bayfront they're still hamilton eyballs and everyone knows we don't count.

Neighborhood. - Isn't this area supposed to be mostly logistics, transportation and big box stores with eventual infil of low density residential. I guess some of the surrounding land could be bought up to create an entertainment district. But it's been suggested that an entertainment district could spring up around West Harbour too. Only to be shot down because the stadium isn't used frequently enough to support such development. Why it would work up here but not down by the harbour? I have no idea.

Traffic Concerns - Big gold star for accomodating parking. Otherwise on the surface it would seem like it would be hassle free to get to the stadium on game day but EVERYONE would have to drive. The Red Hill already backs up starting at the QEW everyday. Ditto in this area on the Linc. Can you imagine the frustration and anger of fans when it takes 30 minutes to travel the 7km from QEW Toronto to Stone Church. On game days it will be bumper to bumper from 403 Brantford to QEW Toronto/Niagara.

Experience - For me, this is the big one. Imagine someone from Oakville coming to a Ticats game. It takes an hour to drive including the crawl up the escarpment from QEW along the Red Hill. Only to sit in a stadium that on the plus side, is new and shiny but whose surroundings are like the Corner of Appleby and Dundas. Which is where they just came from only not as nice.

Now add 30 years to this situation. Or the full life of the stadium 75 - 100 years. Will people want to keep coming back to a stadium at this location in 30 years time. Once more big boxes have opened, more windowless box industrial buildings and sprawling residential. Remember that in 30 or 50 years much of Rymal, Upper Centenial, highland, Nebo Rd will be developed.

This is a modern day equivalent of Ivor Wynne. The area around Gage Ave and Cannon looked just like this 80 years ago.

[flar]

So the Pan Am Games could take place on the outskirts of Hamilton where there is nothing to see, nothing to do, no amenities and no transit.

Great way to show off the city to visitors :tup:

[SteelTown]

Bill Kelly speaks with Tiger-Cats president Scott Mitchell about Fenn's recommendations

http://www.900chml.com/Channels/Reg/NewsLocalGeneral/Story.aspx?ID=1249130

[drpgq]

Where's the nearest bar? What regional transit is there? I think Brian's right and for the Cats, it is all about parking, "proprietary parking" apparently.

[bigguy1231]

Where's the nearest bar? What regional transit is there? I think Brian's right and for the Cats, it is all about parking, "proprietary parking" apparently.

There is a big box center at Stonechurch and Upper Mt Albion with a Kelsey's and a few other places. But still not enough.

If they are looking for access this is not the place. It's as far from the Linc as the 403 is from the West Harbour. The roads in the area are all two lane and would have to be widened. There is virtually no public transit. So forget trying to get to the area to use facilities for non Ticat events. You will be paying at least $30 for parking on game days with no choice or alternatives.

[markbarbera]

So where's my $20,000 consultation fee?

Don't spend that money yet, we still don't know if Troop is agreeable to an extension to the July 9 deadline.

I have mixed emotions on this proposal. My heart says a downtown stadium is preferrable, but I have always had a nagging concern that an open-air multi-purpose stadium has a somewhat questionable role in downtown rehabilitation and intensification.

I would feel better about the east mountain proposal if two elements were added to the mix:

- Rapid Transit Office adds a southbound branch to the B-Line to link up to the stadium site (whenver B-Line becomes a reality)
- Young writes a cheque for Mac/Mohawk to seed a shared downtown campus at Barton and Tiffany

[highwater]

I have mixed emotions on this proposal. My heart says a downtown stadium is preferrable, but I have always had a nagging concern that an open-air multi-purpose stadium has a somewhat questionable role in downtown rehabilitation and intensification.

Isn't a "somewhat questionable role" preferable to absolutely no role whatsoever?

[Jon Dalton]

After seeing this load of crap I really don't care what happens as long as it's not the east mountain. I wouldn't be disappointed if Ian Troop just said screw it and went straight to Mississauga on July 9th.

[markbarbera]

Isn't a "somewhat questionable role" preferable to absolutely no role whatsoever?

When 45 acres of prime urban intensification property is occupied by a publically funded facility that will sit vacant most days of the year, I'd have to say the land's potential is far from being realized. Does a stadium revitalize a brownfield, or just give that impression by filling up empty space?

Think of it this way - putting a big box centre at Barton and Tiffany will generate a similar kind of traffic flow and commercial activity around the West Harbour area. I don't think I would consider that healthy for the urban core either.

[SteelTown]

Ticats set to offer big money for new stadium

July 06, 2010
http://www.thespec.com/News/BreakingNews/article/802672

The Hamilton Tiger-Cats are preparing to announce a major funding offer for a new stadium, believed to be the east mountain site revealed in the facilitation report by Michael Fenn. Check thespec.com for details after 4 p.m.

[highwater]

When 45 acres of prime urban intensification property is occupied by a publically funded facility that will sit vacant most days of the year, I'd have to say the land's potential is far from being realized. Does a stadium revitalize a brownfield, or just give that impression by filling up empty space?

Think of it this way - putting a big box centre at Barton and Tiffany will generate a similar kind of traffic flow and commercial activity around the West Harbour area. I don't think I would consider that healthy for the urban core either.

If the stadium were being funded entirely by private money, I would agree with you, but tens of millions of tax payer dollars are going into this. I would rather see them go into something that would at least offer marginal benefits, as opposed to the soul-sucking disaster of a suburban stadium that doesn't even offer the benefit of being on the QEW.

[SteelTown]

$15 million towards the stadium and they want to manage the stadium over 10 years.

They'll spend zero dollars towards the West Harbour stadium.

[drpgq]

Does a stadium revitalize a brownfield, or just give that impression by filling up empty space?


It would be a vast improvement on what is there now.

I think the East Mountain location is just sad from a regional transit aspect. The infrastructure and trains are already there to take people from stations all along the Lakeshore line to WH. Somebody trying to come from Toronto, Mississauga, Oakville or Burlington by public transit is basically out of luck without a willingness to endure an incredibly long journey. What are gas prices going to be in 2015 and beyond? What is traffic going to be like on the QEW and the 403 in 2015 and beyond? How many people would a RIDE program catch with the new 0.5 limit? I think the Cats are being shortsighted about this, but I do concede they can bag probably a million per year in parking from it. Basically this location does the bare minimum for Hamilton of keeping the Cats in the city and nothing else (although the threat from other cities is highly exaggerated if one knows any CFL history).

[SteelTown]

July 6, 2010

Mayor Fred Eisenberger
City of Hamilton
and Members of Council


Subject: Moving Forward

Dear Fred,

The Hamilton Tiger-Cat organization has had an opportunity to digest the Report of Facilitator Michael Fenn and the recommendations that he has made to both Council and the Tiger-Cats. Having grown up a proud Hamiltonian, I am grateful to Mr. Fenn for his sincere efforts to bring us together.

I am certain that you would agree with me that the past two months have afforded both parties with greater insight into the vital importance of reaching some strategic decisions to ensure we build a stadium to welcome the Pan American Games, and serve as a sports and entertainment mecca for our community for decades to come.

With few exceptions, we embrace Mr. Fenn's Report. We are mindful of the concerns held by the Province of Ontario, and those of Ian Troop, Pan Am Hostco CEO, as they pertain to agreeing on a sustainable site immediately. I am certain that you share our anxiety that further delays will force the Pan Am Committee to seek venues elsewhere in the province. That would be a horrible outcome for our City.

The identification by Mr. Fenn of the "ORC" lands on the East Mountain was not our first choice. You will know that we had several other locations that we believe would have made fundamentally sound business cases for the stadium and its tenants. For various reasons these sites were taken off the table.

Mr. Fenn's choice of the "ORC" East Mountain lands represent a compromise to our organization. We are prepared to accept that compromise now, and negotiate with the Province of Ontario and the City to make this a reality. There are a wide range of advantages inherent in this compromise site proposed by Mr. Fenn:

1. The Government of Ontario through the ORC (Ontario Realty Corp.) own these lands and expensive land assembly is not required.

2. The subject property is within the urban boundary of Hamilton and permits me to achieve my goal as Caretaker for the team, to ensure the Tiger-Cats remain in Hamilton for another one hundred and forty years.

3. The East Mountain ORC lands would not be the subject of Ontario Municipal Board hearings, or court actions, and the property could be "shovel ready" in a very timely manner.

4. The location of the compromise stadium would be very convenient for most fans. As Mr. Fenn properly noted, our business plan requires that we elevate our marketing activities to strategically position the Hamilton Tiger-Cats as a "regional" Southwestern Ontario CFL team. The "ORC" East Mountain compromise speaks to the importance of "tomorrow’s fan" and will serve as a facility to draw people into Hamilton for football and other events. As well, the site will not negatively impact area residents and as such, the stadium will have a great deal more multi-purpose flexibility.

5. Senior executives of Metrolinx, the province of Ontario’s public transit organization, met with senior city officials, the facilitator and ourselves and they confirmed that regardless of stadium location a downtown Hamilton station at Liuna station is part of GO’s expansion plans.

6. The compromise site achieves the objective of a second Hamilton GO train station as confirmed in our meeting with Metrolinx. It would be our expectation that a GO bus terminal would be on site, as well as ample parking for other buses to support our strategic regional bus/ticket marketing program that we will launch with the CFL throughout Southwestern Ontario.

7. The lack of remediation, planning and expropriation problems associated with the East Mountain "ORC" site enable us to conclude that together we can complete the construction of the stadium as soon as 2013 within the budget commitment of the city of Hamilton.

8. We believe that the essential ingredients to a successful and sustainable stadium, as documented in the Facilitator’s Report, are inextricably tied to the sustainability of the Hamilton Tiger-Cat Football club, the oldest professional sports franchise in North America, in Hamilton.

Our Commitment to the City of Hamilton Success in any business undertaking is the sum total of everyone doing their part. The Hamilton Tiger-Cats are prepared to do their part and more. Our contributions to the new stadium will total in excess of $74,000,000.00. Specifically:

1. The Club will contribute $15 million to the cost of the stadium and precinct.

2. The Club will operate the stadium and cover the estimated annual operating cost of $3 million per year. Simply put, the City will not be responsible for stadium operating losses going forward. Over the 10 year initial management contract this will total $30,000,000.00.

3. The club will assume the transition costs between today and the opening of the new stadium of an estimated $10,000.000.00.

4. The Tiger-Cats commit $14,000,000.00 to bring two Grey Cup Games to Hamilton as soon as possible. The quantifiable economic benefit to the community will exceed $200 million.

5. Associated with this, working with the City, we will ensure the location of the Grey Cup Festivals in the area of the West Harbour/North End community. This will be an opportunity to showcase our Waterfront to in excess of 20 million viewers throughout North America.

6. As you know, I am involved in the business of professional soccer through the NASL and the Carolina Railhawks Soccer team. It is our view there is a great deal of synergy for combined football and soccer organizations. As such, we have secured franchise right for Hamilton with the North American Soccer League. You will find, attached, a letter from F. Selby Wellman, Chairman of the NASL Finance Committee.

Working together, I am confident that we can bring the appropriate level of professional soccer to Hamilton. Purchasing and establishing a new professional team in Hamilton will require an investment of greater than $5,000,000.00 over its first few years of operations.

7. CFL marketing. Having met with CFL Commissioner, Mark Cohon, you will be aware that the Tiger-Cat "brand" is amongst the strongest in North America. This is a reflection of the tremendous fan loyalty that has evolved over many years. Our fan base, web interest, and viewership are amongst the highest in the CFL. To this end, The Hamilton Tiger-Cats, and the CFL, will enter into a long term strategic marketing program to communities within 90 kms of Hamilton to encourage them to attend Tiger-Cat games and spend time in the City. It would be our intention to work closely with the Economic Development Department of the City to enhance these CFL marketing investments.

8. As you know, the Hamilton Tiger-Cats have formed a working agreement with Mr George Schott CEO of Osmington Inc. As referenced in the Globe and Mail, Osmington Inc, a Thompson family company, enjoys an enviable reputation within the development, finance and entertainment community. Specifically, Osmington developed the highly successful MTS Centre in Winnipeg, the third busiest arena in Canada. Mr. Schott has deep roots and has invested heavily in the Hamilton community. He shares our sense of enthusiasm about ancillary and complementary developments at the "ORC" East Mountain stadium site. The City of Hamilton may be assured that through our collective resources, we will do our absolute utmost to optimize the stadium precinct.

9. The Club has engaged Mr. Denis Braham, Chairman and CEO of Winstead PC, one of the leading stadium construction advisory firms in North America. They have recently advised on both the new Cowboys Stadium, home of the Dallas Cowboys of the NFL, the Meadowlands home of both the New York Giants and New York Jets, and the new Yankee Stadium in New York City.

10. Consistent with the Ticats highly successful community outreach “BeFit” program, we intend to leverage the site infrastructure to provide a youth leadership program for the East Mountain community. This will engage the entire community and would provide fitness, nutrition, obesity management and leadership training skills that will have a lasting value for our young people.

The Way Ahead

It is time to move forward. There is so much more that binds the City of Hamilton and the Hamilton Tiger-Cats than divides us. My family has lived and worked in this community since 1870. We have supported a wide range of worthy charity and community endeavours and will continue to do so. My commitment to the Hamilton Tiger-Cats is stronger than ever as evidenced by commitments made in the past, and commitments made today.

But the time for "two track" discussions must conclude or Hamilton risks losing Provincial and Federal funding that it may never see again. The "ORC East Mountain" lands are not our first choice. They are not our second choice. But it is a site that allows us to move forward now.

I would ask that Council consider the significant proposal that I am advancing through this letter. We are prepared to enter into negotiations with the City and with the Ontario Government through the Ontario Realty Corporation, with a view to completing a Definitive Agreement on the "ORC East Mountain" site as quickly as possible. Council will be assured of our total cooperation moving forward.

I will endeavour to make myself available to elaborate upon our commitment in
conjunction with our President Scott Mitchell and my Corporate CFO Doug Rye, C.A.

Sincerely,

Mr. Robert (Bob) Young
Caretaker

cc Members of Council
cc Chris Murray
cc David Adames

cc Premier Dalton McGuinty
cc Hon. Sophia etc
cc Ted McMeekin MPP

http://scratchingpost.thespec.com/

[thisisdan]

I'm okay with this proposal. I like the addition of bringing a NASL team to Hamilton.

Barring unforeseen problems with the land, this is a good compromise - even though it's never been talked about before. It's better than moving the team to another city. 15 million is not a lot - not enough to build the improvements that the ti-cats require - but it's something. When has the city ever turned down cash?

Does anyone know? Is the NASL to the MLS like the AHL is to the NHL?

[SteelTown]

Hopefully this will be good for Hamilton's taxpayers with a possible bidding war with the Katz Group.

[scott000]

Ughhhhhhhh

While I'm relieved that the stadium and team will remain in the Hammer under this proposal, that's the only good thing I can take away from this.

So we basically end up with the suburban Airport location nobody wanted, except with highway visibility/access.

Mr. Young may be an excellent businessman, but he knows or cares little about city-building. And while taxpayers are footing much of the cost, at this point what choice does the city have but to say yes.

It really is about making sure nobody but Bob Young can collect your money when you attend a game. I guess that's how you become a millionaire.

[scott000]

I think this is the ORC listing for the East Hamilton site in question:

http://www.ontariorealty.ca/Doing-Business-With-Us/Properties-for-Sale/Parcel-B-East--Highland-Road--Stoney-Creek--Hamilton.htm

16.6 acres listed for 7.97 million.


The more I look at the site, the more I hate it. Its highway visibility appears negligible.

[SteelTown]

The City and the Katz Group will/should have until August 31st to convince Bob Young about the West Harbour stadium site.

[SteelTown]

From Mayor Fred

http://www.900chml.com/Other/MayorsLetterJuly6.pdf

[highwater]

Its highway visibility appears negligible.

Exactly. No way they can argue naming rights would be worth what they would have been on the QE. The Red Hill/Linc are strictly local highways. I can't for the life of me see the appeal of this site for anyone.

No way in hell Future Fund money should be spent on this.

[paleale2]

Ughhhhhhh......let the sprawl continue.......Can we possibly be serious about this location....can the Tiger Cats?

Let's see where the COW goes with this...........It already has a tremendous stench !!!!

I may have to move again !!!!!!!!

[bigguy1231]

Ughhhhhhh......let the sprawl continue.......Can we possibly be serious about this location....can the Tiger Cats?

Let's see where the COW goes with this...........It already has a tremendous stench !!!!

I may have to move again !!!!!!!!

What sprawl. It would be infill if anything. That whole area is pretty well developed with industrial on one side and residential on the other.

Don't get me wrong, I do not like that location, but it definitely is not sprawl.

[bigguy1231]

I think this is the ORC listing for the East Hamilton site in question:

http://www.ontariorealty.ca/Doing-Business-With-Us/Properties-for-Sale/Parcel-B-East--Highland-Road--Stoney-Creek--Hamilton.htm

16.6 acres listed for 7.97 million.


The more I look at the site, the more I hate it. Its highway visibility appears negligible.

From the map I seen on the news that would only be one part of the land. A parcel South of that location is about twice the size with frontage on the Linc and RHP.

[devil's advocate]

Hold on one second Batman, the city decides to ban a community 3day May 2-4 fair just literally a 2min walk down the street, due to traffic concerns and a few drunken teens. But is toying with the idea of putting a Ti-Cats/Pan Am stadium in the same area :lmao: :lmao:http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/9146/jerryout.gif

I dont know if there is a more backwards city in Canada :worship:

[isaidso]

If this new location gets the go ahead, how does one get to there from the GO Train station? Is it within walking distance or do you have to take transit? How much would a cab ride between these 2 points be? I go to Hamilton from Toronto on a regular basis to attend games. If they're interested in marketing to fans outside of Hamilton, surely they don't expect us to purchase cars just so we can go?

Maybe I'll have to switch my allegiances to the Toronto Argonauts? At least I can get to their games on the subway.

[thistleclub]

Dodgy headline math.

Ticats owner pledges $74 million for east Mountain stadium (http://thespec.com/News/Local/article/803068)
Cash for construction, operation and promises of Grey Cups

John Kernaghan
Hamilton Spectator (http://thespec.com/News/Local/article/803068)
(Jul 7, 2010)

"The Hamilton Tiger-Cats owner came up with the surprise promise of a $74-million boost for a Pan Am Games stadium at an east Mountain location yesterday. The Ticats would run the stadium for the city, covering the estimated $3 million per year operating costs for 10 years and contributing $15 million to construction..... Of the $74-million commitment, Young cited $14 million to win the rights to two Grey Cup Games in the next 10 years and $10 million to operate the club at Ivor Wynne.... The Tiger-Cats owner would also get into the soccer business, with a $5-million commitment to get a North American Soccer League franchise up and running. Also, Young said the Cats intend to use stadium facilities to run youth programs and community fitness and nutrition programs. Councillor Sam Merulla applauded Young for stepping up with a plan. 'We should have done this 18 months ago,' Merulla said."

[Berklon]

That is a terrible location and it does very little to help the city.

I swear it's next to impossible for this city to move forward with anything - something always gets in the way. It's always 1 step forward, 2 steps back. Hamilton's new motto should be: "So much potential, so much stupidity".

[markk]

I've been following this thread for months, but haven't posted. The news of this new location is truly disappointing.

I'm not against development on the mountain - but this squanders a huge opportunity for the waterfront/downtown.

Take the spec poll, because so far people are seeing the $74M headline and jumping on the Ticat bandwagon. http://www.thespec.com

[BrianE]

We citizens are our own worse enemy. I would say, informaly and unscientificaly that more than 50% of people think that an East Mountain Stadium is a fantastic idea. Everybody posting here is firmly in the minority, including me.

This is what most people want. An unremarkable stadium in an unremarkable location that provides a luke warm event experience and zero opportunity for interactions between fans before and after games. People also want a sanitized concession experience with little to no choice or innovation in food and drink in and around the stadium.

[markbarbera]

If this new location gets the go ahead, how does one get to there from the GO Train station?

GO Transit bought land across from the site two years ago with plans to make a bus station/park and ride here. I expect that's how you'd get here. If you have been taking GO in from Toronto for games, you're used to the GO Bus anyway, seeing as there is no GO Train service to Hamilton for those weekend home games...

Metrolinx is considering a second Hamilton GO train station for the CN line at Centennial to serve this new Pan Am stadium which will be linked to the east mountain site by shuttle buses. It's a shame the former TH&B track was ripped up for the rail trail a few years back as it ran east from Hunter GO Station right up the hill to Dartnall and Limeridge, then south to Caledonia. Ideally, this route could be used to extend existing GO service up to to a new station at Dartnall and Stone Church, which would directly serve the ORC site.

[markbarbera]

Hold on one second Batman, the city decides to ban a community 3day May 2-4 fair just literally a 2min walk down the street, due to traffic concerns and a few drunken teens. But is toying with the idea of putting a Ti-Cats/Pan Am stadium in the same area

Actually, Valley Park is nearly a 30 minute walk from the ORC land.

[SteelTown]

With $45 million you can build a really nice soccer field and outdoor concert venue on the West Harbour.

Put the practice field on the West Harbour and convert it to a soccer field.

[SteelTown]

Chris Murray says the Pan Am HostCo has okayed going forward with two sites today and choosing one by August 12. HostCo originally set a deadline of July 9.