Tim Hortons Field | 40m | ? | Complete

[markbarbera]

A 'driveway to driveway' experience does not necessarily equate to a suburban stadium. Vancouver's BC Place offers a 'driveway to driveway' experience and also happens to be in a very urban location. The same can be said for Toronto's Rogers Centre, the Commonwealth Stadium in Edmonton, and Canad Inns Stadium in Winnipeg.

If Hamilton had done their work and found an urban location that can also offer a 'driveway to driveway' experience, this entire mess would have been avoided. Instead they have insisted on trying to squeeze a square peg into a round hole, and here we are.

[realcity]

My guess the plan is to extend the current fanbase. The fans that attend IVW will likely continue wherever the stadium is put. They might have a preference over West Harbour or East Mtn, but I suspect they'll still continue to go to any location.

What the Cats are interested in, are the fans that ARE NOT at the seats.

[highwater]

A 'driveway to driveway' experience does not necessarily equate to a suburban stadium.

You're dead on, but the problem is that the vision-free Ticat management has interpreted 'driveway to driveway' to mean suburban. I agree that a better downtown site might have been found, but if you imagine that the Ticats would have supported it any more than they support West Harbour, you're crazy (she said affectionately :) ).

In any case, there's little to be accomplished at the moment by debating what might have been. The fact is we're stuck with two choices, and I don't think there's any doubt which one is the lesser of two evils for the city as a whole, given the fact that we are footing the majority of the bill.

[highwater]

What the Cats are interested in, are the fans that ARE NOT at the seats.

You're right, but they're gambling on these potential fans with OUR money. If it's such a solid business plan, why can't they come up with more than $15m?

[markbarbera]

You're dead on, but the problem is that the vision-free Ticat management has interpreted 'driveway to driveway' to mean suburban.

Have they? The Ticats proposed ten other locations during facilitation, all of them rejected by the city. Were they all suburban in nature? Do we know this as fact or are we second-guessing the Ticat organization? A site at RHVP and QEW was the Ticats' favoured location, is this suburban? What is the perceived urban/suburban boundary line for Hamilton anyway?

[highwater]

Have they? The Ticats proposed ten other locations during facilitation, all of them rejected by the city. Were they all suburban in nature? Do we know this as fact or are we second-guessing the Ticat organization? A site at RHVP and QEW was the Ticats' favoured location, is this suburban? What is the perceived urban/suburban boundary line for Hamilton anyway?

It isn't as simple as a boundary line but the character of the neighbourhood, urban being dense, walkable, versus suburban which is low-density and car dependent.

Of the sites made public, all but the Chedoke site could be characterized as suburban, and frankly it is difficult to take the TiCats Chedoke proposal seriously as it is NEC land and I'm sure they knew perfectly well there was no chance it could be built there.

Are you suggesting that one of the 10 mystery sites proposed by the Ticats during arbitration with Fenn, was a viable downtown option that the city rejected? Given that the Ticats have talked of little else besides parking, highway visibility, and more parking, it is a huge stretch to suggest that they might have proposed a site even closer to the downtown (and further from the 403) than the West Harbour.

[SteelTown]

If I was Mayor Fred I would get City staff to clearly explain the funding requirements for the Future Fund.

This might shake up council’s support for the East Mountain stadium location since we the taxpayers might have to fund it without the Future Fund money pot.

[SteelTown]

Show courage on west harbour, architects say

July 12, 2010
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/806321

A group of Hamilton architects is calling on city councillors to “demonstrate bravery with their commitment to our city core” and stick with the west harbour site for the Pan Am Games stadium.

Companies and individuals representing more than 100 Hamilton architects and designers supported the letter to Mayor Fred Eisenberger.

The letter, organized by architect Drew Hauser, says the city has demonstrated by the selection process and planning that the value of the west harbour site is “immediately and indefinitely quantifiable.”

In contrast, signee Marek Radojewski said the east Mountain location the Tiger-Cats want is “not a convincing site for the future.”

[markbarbera]

Of course, in Canada an urban area is defined as any area with a density of 400 people per square km, minimum population 1000, a definition which actually would apply to just about all of the alternate sites mentioned. ('urban' is often misidentified as strictly 'downtown' and 'suburban' with 'everything that is not downtown').

With regards to what was discussed within the confines of facilitation, none of us commenting here were involved so any comment on site-specifics and viability is pure speculation.

Having said that, I have to disagree with the pretty broad assumption that any alternate site could only be considered acceptable if it was situated closer to downtown than West Harbour site.

[realcity]

You're right, but they're gambling on these potential fans with OUR money. If it's such a solid business plan, why can't they come up with more than $15m?

I think west harbour would be a gamble too.

There is value to the city to having a successful TiCats. jobs, prestige, relevance, exposure, something that defines us apart from the rest of the GTA. So I'm okay with the use of our money. I think most $ is coming from the PanAm budget if I'm not mistaken.

If the city is interested in fixing up downtown, then they should start fixing it up, not depending on a stadium that is 'close' to downtown. But find out where all the private investment has gone? and why it by-passes our downtown?

I like west harbour, I just don't think a 30k football stadium is the right fit. I think it's a bad marriage that would end badly for both parties. What would happen if the Ticats moved bc west harbour turned out bad for the team? We'd have a hulking overly imposing vacant stadium on our waterfront that is supposed to be a multi-use, regional attraction destination. That would be pretty embarrassing if we had an vacant stadium as the focal point.

If it ends badly on the east mountain, well at least then it won't hurt downtown/west harbour's image.

They should stick to the original plan of condo's, retail, and recreation on the west harbour. Not ruin it with a 30k stadium.

[highwater]

Having said that, I have to disagree with the pretty broad assumption that any alternate site could only be considered acceptable if it was situated closer to downtown than West Harbour site.

I only mentioned that because you seemed to be of the mind that the city could have found a site closer to downtown that the Ticats would have found acceptable, if only they hadn't been so fixated on the WH.

[markbarbera]

I only mentioned that because you seemed to be of the mind that the city could have found a site closer to downtown that the Ticats would have found acceptable, if only they hadn't been so fixated on the WH.

Perhaps I haven't been as clear as I thought I was on my position. My position is that the city has done itself a great disservice by being fixated on Barton and Tiffany as the only viable urban location and should never have proceeded with the notion of financing a Pan Am stadium without a) consulting closely with the Ticat organization from the early stages and b) not having any kind of credible contingency plan should Barton and Tiffany plan falter. I also take issue with the use of the Future Fund to finance the stadium, regardless as to where it ends up.

[geoff's two cents]

Having said that, I have to disagree with the pretty broad assumption that any alternate site could only be considered acceptable if it was situated closer to downtown than West Harbour site.

My preference is downtown, of course, but I would be fine with having the stadium built at another site that is both very transit accessible and aesthetically pleasing.

Had this taken place a few years ago, for instance, it would have been interesting to see whether McMaster would have been on board with helping to finance a world class facility adjacent to campus. This is what Winnipeg is doing with the new U. of Manitoba stadium. This location would have had highway exposure, good transit access, neighborhood embeddedness and might have helped revitalize commercial areas (other than Westdale Village proper) close by.

I realize that "what might have been" is rather a moot point. I agree with Steeltown that a close look at what the "Future Fund" can pay for would be welcome. I also think that this process would encourage the Ticats to pony up an awful lot more than the negligible $15m initially proposed if they want their facility in the sticks. The process might even force them to reconsider their opposition to a publicly funded WH location.

The farthest the city can go to accommodate them ethically on this hare-brained scheme, in my opinion, is to help pay for highway and utilities access, while the team organization pays the city's portion of the facility and parking grounds itself.

Even this would be a stretch (It's a terrible idea from a city planning and environmental perspective, and still represents a considerable economic compromise), but it would at least free up Future Fund monies for the West Harbour, ensure that Hamilton doesn't go broke funding a private interest, and ensure that people like myself don't lose all faith in the city.

[SteelTown]

I've heard one of the biggest reason for the East Mountain location is to attract new fans from outside of the Hamilton region with the "driveway to driveway" experience.

The Lakeshore West line carries typically 180,000 riders on the GO Train during weekdays. Soon the Lakeshore West line will extend down to the Niagara Region for weekday service, bringing all day GO Train service to Hamilton. The GO Train towards the Niagara Region attracted an average of 2,902 riders just on weekend service only during Summer months.

The West Harbour stadium is literally steps away from the new James St North GO Station. The Lakeshore West line could attract thousands of new Ti Cats fans alone, espeically the Western GTAers, probably attract hundreds more with the GO Bus as well.

[markbarbera]

I've heard one of the biggest reason for the East Mountain location is to attract new fans from outside of the Hamilton region with the "driveway to driveway" experience.

The Lakeshore West line carries typically 180,000 riders on the GO Train during weekdays. Soon the Lakeshore West line will extend down to the Niagara Region for weekday service, bringing all day GO Train service to Hamilton. The GO Train towards the Niagara Region attracted an average of 2,902 riders just on weekend service only during Summer months.

The West Harbour stadium is literally steps away from the new James St North GO Station. The Lakeshore West line could attract thousands of new Ti Cats fans alone, espeically the Western GTAers, probably attract hundreds more with the GO Bus as well.

GO transit could only play a minor role in delivering fans to the site, no matter where it is located. The hourly Lakeshore train in a 12-carriage format has a capacity of just under 2000 passengers. If filled to capacity running in both directions, it could only deliver 10-15% of the capacity of a 25K-seat stadium at best. And before it is suggested, GO is highly unlikely to place extra trains on the already busy CN tracks on game days. They don't do it for Blue Jays or Argo games, and they are not about to start doing it for Ticat games either.

BTW I believe you will find the 2902 average ridership to Niagara is the daily total of all three currrent trips and not a per-train average. Averaging 968 per train means the trains are currently running at just under 50% capacity.

[SteelTown]

So it looks like Bob Young finally revealed what it would take for the Ti Cats to sign on with the West Harbour stadium.

Bring the Perimeter Road back.

http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/5AB94776-4B1C-4A2D-97C2-986BDB273FA7/0/SSAPR1404PERIMETERRD.pdf

Council killed this perimeter road early 2000 or late 90's. Think council should revisit this proposal?

[dennis1]

Yes. Why not.

[SteelTown]

It could turn into Hamilton's version of the Gardiner Expressway, a highway blocking access towards the waterfront.

[realcity]

I like that perimeter road, it just follows the CN tracks and rail yards that already are successful at cutting-off a lot of the access.

Look we don't have a perimeter now, and haven't forever.... and look at all the development!!! Wow good thing we didn't build that perimeter road, or else we would have not have all those condo, retail and entertainment developments along there.

Re consider the perimeter road... nothing is happening anyway. It would actually stop the transports from barreling down Main, King, York, Wilson and Canon to cut through the city to get to the 403 ramp off York/Plains Road.

[thistleclub]

Press Release: Our City, Our Future Campaign Launches (http://www.raisethehammer.org/blog/1809/press_release:_our_city_our_future_campaign_launches)

By RTH Staff
Published July 13, 2010
News

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Hamiltonians call on City Council, Province to Reaffirm West Harbour Stadium Location for Pan Am Games

Hamilton, Ontario, July 13, 2010 - The "Our City, Our Future" campaign calls on Hamilton City Council, the Province of Ontario, the Pan Am Games HostCo and the Hamilton Tiger-Cats to commit to a downtown Pan Am Stadium that helps build a city with a lively waterfront connected to local and regional transit.

Surprised and dismayed by the last-minute shift to an East Mountain location that meets none of the city's objectives, a diverse group of Hamiltonians has launched Our City, Our Future to send a clear message to decision makers: the Future Fund money must be spent on a legacy project that will grow Hamilton's economic base, enhance Hamilton's social fabric and enhance community life.

On August 10, 2010, Hamilton City Council will vote on the location of the Pan Am Games Stadium. The choice will send a message about Hamilton around North America. A West Harbour stadium helps build a city with a revitalized waterfront connected to local and regional transit. It will significantly and immediately increase quality of life in Hamilton, helping to attract and retain the best and brightest talent who seek progressive dynamic cities in which to live.

As citizens, we are putting up $60 million of our municipal Future Fund dollars toward this stadium. It's Our City, Our Future - and Our Money on the line - and we have the final say on where the stadium should be located.

We value the Hamilton Tiger-Cats and recognize that they have legitimate concerns about the team's economic viability in a new stadium. We are willing to work hard to help develop an innovative revenue model on new terms that allow for the financial success of the football club at the West Harbour location.

A motion asking City Council to reaffirm the West Harbour as its choice for the Pan Am Games Stadium will be introduced at the August 10 meeting of Committee of the Whole. We urge all who support a dynamic, progressive vision for Hamilton to go to OurCityOurFuture.ca and add their voice to the supporters for the motion, which will be sent to all decision makers involved.
About Our City, Our Future

This campaign is sponsored by Raise the Hammer and has been organized entirely by volunteers who want to see a successful, progressive outcome to Hamilton's Pan Am bid.

Link: http://OurCityOurFuture.ca

[markbarbera]

Great, that's all this city needed, another special interest group.

I suggest we decide the site location by referendum. It is after all, a decision that will affect all citizens, and all citizens should have an equal say as to where it goes. It can easily be added to the October ballot. And if a decision can be delayed to August 31, what big a deal would it be to set a firm, final decision for election night on October 25?

[realcity]

Well you also read the interview with Mr. Young on RTH.

If it's West Harbour, then no Cats. No Cats = no PanAm Stadium. No PanAm Stadium = probably no velodrome, no track events nothing. Hamilton would no longer be included in the PanAm Games. And would soon no longer have a CFL team.

If we insist on the West Harbour, it won't be built. It's a vote to build it a York U, off the 401.

Brilliant plan guys. I hope you get your stupid west harbour location. Then you'll see what a huge mistake it is. We'll end up with nothing... and less.

[flar]

I would call Mr. Young's bluff.

[realcity]

I think it should've went to a referendum vote too Mark. Council knows Jack Squat. First Collins protected (so he thought) his little fiefdom and thought it would score him political points within his ward by removing Confed Park. And that started everything downhill. Suddenly if Collins can unilaterally eliminate the prime location that the Cats, Brailey, Foxcroft, the CFL and PanAm wanted, then every other councilor thought they could start acting unilaterally too.

Look if we insist on West Harbour, we WON'T GET ANYTHING!!!! Get it through your heads. I half want the city to keep insisting on West Harbour just to show you guys.

[realcity]

I would call Mr. Young's bluff.

It's not a bluff he's at least holding a pocket pair of Jacks. The city better be holding something better, but they aren't. He just raised. The city goes all-in then, and risks losing it all.

PanAm has already said, the Cats need to be a partner of the stadium or they won't build it. How many times does this need to be repeated?

[geoff's two cents]

:previous:

1) The city's bargaining position is just as promising. They hold the purse strings, and Young has no guarantee whatsoever that he will be able to relocate the Ticats elsewhere.

2) The economic downside of acceding to Young's demand for a stadium on the periphery, on the other hand, is at least equal to the misfortune that would befall the city if he were able to go elsewhere.

Worst case (and unlikely) scenario: No Pan-Am games, no Ticats, but (relatively speaking) buckets of money to spend on revitalizing the lower city in general, and the waterfront in particular, which is what the Future Fund is supposed to be doing anyways.

3) The problem with submitting the issue to a city-wide referendum is that people who only recently, and not by choice, became citizens of the city will be effectively settling the issue of where to put a team that has been a cultural institution in the lower city for decades. Not surprisingly, and with some justification, these citizens by and large have little or no interest in the fate of the lower city, or in retaining and growing the lower city's unique cultural synergy.

If the councilors they elect to office are any indication, these citizens will vote to have the stadium anywhere but in or near the city's downtown. Nor would this vote represent anywhere near an accurate cross-section of Ticats fans. What about fans arriving from Toronto or Niagara via GO transit? What about fans from further afield who want their game to be part of an evening's entertainment in a vibrant city? What about prospective fans (students and recently installed young professionals, for instance) who would not hold a vote but could/would be attracted to a downtown entertainment destination, walking distance from Hess and James North?

4) In any case, waiting until October 25 is not an option, and August 10 does not give either side in the debate adequate time to marshal the resources necessary for a referendum.

[markbarbera]

The problem with submitting the issue to a city-wide referendum is that people who only recently, and not by choice, became citizens of the city will be effectively settling the issue of where to put a team that has been a cultural institution in the lower city for decades. Not surprisingly, and with some justification, these citizens by and large have little or no interest in the fate of the lower city, or in retaining and growing the lower city's unique cultural synergy.

If the councilors they elect to office are any indication, these citizens will vote to have the stadium anywhere but in or near the city's downtown. Nor would this vote represent anywhere near an accurate cross-section of Ticats fans. What about fans arriving from Toronto or Niagara via GO transit? What about fans from further afield who want their game to be part of an evening's entertainment in a vibrant city? What about prospective fans (students and recently installed young professionals, for instance) who would not hold a vote but could/would be attracted to a downtown entertainment destination, walking distance from Hess and James North?

The $60 million is coming from the city's coffers, therefore every citizen has a say in how it should be spent. This is not a decision just for lower city residents, it is not a decision for Ticat fans to make. It is a decision all citizens have a stake in and therefore all citizens have a right to say how it is spent. The city can present its case to voters, as can the Ticat organization. Then the informed voter can make their choice. It's a little thing called democracy.

In any case, waiting until October 25 is not an option
Says who? Why is it not an option?

[Anders Knudsen]

No Cats = no PanAm Stadium.

do you have a source on this? Has the govt actually said they would pull funding if the ti-cats move? I've read rumours in various media but never heard it from any minister.

[SteelTown]

Interesting reading......

http://hamiltonbay.blogspot.com/p/vision-for-future.html

[bigguy1231]

Interesting reading......

http://hamiltonbay.blogspot.com/p/vision-for-future.html

What an awesome concept. I really like the design of that stadium and the surrounding area. It's too bad the city doesn't have 500 million to build it and the accompanying facilities.

[SteelTown]

Stadium debate ramps up
Campaign takes form on street, online to keep west harbour site

July 14, 2010
John Kernaghan and Paul Morse
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/807248

Cats and rats are symbols of a surge of opposition to the football team's proposed east Mountain stadium site.

'Paws off' is the motto of the citizen campaign Our City Our Future, which aims to head off the Tiger-Cats bid to move the Pan Am stadium site from the west harbour.

And a James Street storefront displays a group of stuffed rats fleeing a ship and chasing a trail of play money. That mocks some city councillors willing to move the stadium after Ticat owner Bob Young proposed $74 million toward construction and operation.

Our City Our Future says the west harbour location provides a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to revitalize the city.

"There definitely is a groundswell of support for west harbour," said organizer Ryan McGreal. "The e-mails are just flying around."

Graham Crawford, owner of HIStory and HERitage museum and gallery, has launched the storefront poster campaign slamming the city for appearing to throw in the towel on the west harbour stadium and an integrated urban plan.

"This decision is so big and the implications so broad," he said, "that to use a suburban site flies in the face of brownfield remediation, public transit, urban intensification and saving greenspace, all of which Premier Dalton McGuinty says he wants to make happen."

McGreal had the website ourcityourfuture.ca up and running yesterday with a proposed motion for city council to back its original stadium site when it makes the Pan Am facility call next month.

Crawford's posters criticize city councillors for "falling all over themselves thanking Bob Young for his generosity," and chastise facilitator Michael Fenn for overstepping his role by recommending the east Mountain site in addition to the west harbour.

The rats did not go over well with Councillor Bob Bratina, a consistent critic of the west harbour site.

Crawford said Bratina sent him an e-mail yesterday.

"In it, he said, 'I don't find your rat-ship metaphor funny or insightful.'" The Spectator was unable to reach Bratina yesterday.

McGreal, of Raise The Hammer, a group dedicated to making the city more vibrant, said the surprise introduction of the east Mountain location is mobilizing citizens to make sure city tax dollars and other public funds are used to best advantage in an area that can connect downtown with the waterfront.

Dave Kuruc, owner of Mixed Media on James North, says the east Mountain is not a good location for a stadium and that the city should stick with the Setting Sail master plan for the west harbour.

But a west harbour stadium will not help cultural development on James Street North because the city doesn't know how to connect the two, he said.

"I'd rather see the stadium in downtown."

[SteelTown]

Ticats' site needs costly roadwork

July 14, 2010
Emma Reilly
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/807245

The Tiger-Cats' vision of a "driveway-to-driveway" stadium has the potential to cost taxpayers millions in road upgrades.

Councillor Brad Clark says the east Mountain site, which the football club prefers for its easy highway access, will require more than $8 million worth of improvements to surrounding roads to handle increased traffic.

It's one of the major questions the city will be addressing over the next few weeks as it studies the two proposed locations for the Pan Am stadium: the west harbour or the east Mountain. Ticats owner Bob Young recently offered $15 million toward the stadium construction and $3 million a year in operating costs if council chooses east Mountain.

According to Clark, who represents the Stoney Creek ward that includes the east Mountain site, Stone Church, Pritchard, Highland, Dartnall and Trinity Church roads will need enhancements to accommodate stadium traffic.

The city says widening a roadway from two to four lanes with a sidewalk on one side costs $1.9 million a kilometre.

That means upgrades to Stone Church Road alone -- which Clark says should be widened to five lanes for two kilometres between Dartnall Road and Winterberry Drive -- would cost upward of $4 million.

"It is doable? Yes. Will it be a challenge? Most definitely," Clark said.

Clark has also called for an on-off ramp from the Red Hill parkway. According to the Ministry of Transportation, the average cost of a 500-metre, two-lane on-off ramp is $4 million. Traditionally, these costs are shared between municipalities and the province, with the province picking up anywhere from 50 to 100 per cent of the tab.

Rob Rossini, the city's general manager of finance, says these issues will be included in a report being prepared for council for an Aug. 10 meeting. Other factors like property acquisition, water and wastewater servicing, and utility relocation will also influence the total cost of infrastructure upgrades.

The city has already planned, but not scheduled, upgrades to Trinity Church Road, Stone Church, Dartnall, Highland and Pritchard roads. Development charges, especially from the Red Hill Business Park, are meant to pay for those projects.

"As in any greenfield development, infrastructure improvements will depend the pace of development and related revenues," Rossini said yesterday in an e-mail.

However, if the city needs to fast-track those road projects, development charges alone wouldn't be enough to cover those costs. That would leave the city on the hook. Also, as a city facility, the stadium wouldn't generate development charges in the same way as a private development.

"It was a planned phasing-in of the development," Clark said. "But now everything has to be expedited if the east Mountain site is picked."

[realcity]

Keep going with west harbour and you'll see that we'll not only not have the PanAm Games but we'll also lose the Cats

[oldcoote]

Keep going with west harbour and you'll see that we'll not only not have the PanAm Games but we'll also lose the Cats

Seriously, where would they move?

I say, call Young's bluff. He'll threaten to move them, but he won't. Why? Because there's no where to go. And, he's local and would be crucified for moving the team. The worst case for him is that he'll sell.

Besides, if they play in Stoney Creek, they may as well play in Halifax.

[dennis1]

realcity: Are the TiCats really worth losing Katz and a shot at the NHL?

[dennis1]

Stoney Creek. They should change their name to the Niagara TiCats then.

[markbarbera]

Seriously, where would they move?

I say, call Young's bluff. He'll threaten to move them, but he won't. Why? Because there's no where to go. And, he's local and would be crucified for moving the team. The worst case for him is that he'll sell.

Besides, if they play in Stoney Creek, they may as well play in Halifax.

No where to go? I beg to differ. First off, the moment word that a compromise had not been reached betweenthe city and the Ticats, three different GTA municipalities contacted Young to feel him out on relocation. They know the cash follows him. Wherever the Ticats are is where the Pan Am stadium will go.

Young could also move his team anywhere in the Niagara Penninsula and still keep the Ticats branding and the fan base. Further afield, both Halifax and Ottawa are actively seeking a CFL team.

Bob Young is not a bluffer.

realcity: Are the TiCats really worth losing Katz and a shot at the NHL?

They are mutually exclusive. Katz primary interest is in Copps. Pan Am wasn't even on his radar when he first approached the city two years ago.

Besides, I do not have much faith or trust in Katz, given the shenanigans he has been pulling in Edmonton. I get the feling he is just blowing smoke.

Stoney Creek. They should change their name to the Niagara TiCats then.

Actually, Stoney Creek is part of the City of Hamilton, so no name change would really be needed should the location of the stadium end up there.

[dennis1]

No where to go? I beg to differ. First off, the moment word that a compromise had not been reached betweenthe city and the Ticats, three different GTA municipalities contacted Young to feel him out on relocation. They know the cash follows him. Wherever the Ticats are is where the Pan Am stadium will go.

Young could also move his team anywhere in the Niagara Penninsula and still keep the Ticats branding and the fan base. Further afield, both Halifax and Ottawa are actively seeking a CFL team.

Bob Young is not a bluffer.



They are mutually exclusive. Katz primary interest is in Copps. Pan Am wasn't even on his radar when he first approached the city two years ago.

Besides, I do not have much faith or trust in Katz, given the shenanigans he has been pulling in Edmonton. I get the feling he is just blowing smoke.



Actually, Stoney Creek is part of the City of Hamilton, so no name change would really be needed should the location of the stadium end up there.

Thanks for that. I'm just thinking if the move out of the former city of Hamilton they shouldn't used the name anymore.

I feel Katz is legit. Edm is dragging their feet like always and that's why Cgy passed them is the business centre of Western Canada.

[FRM]

I'm sure the CFL would step in if there was a potential of the Ticats moving out of Hamilton.

[geoff's two cents]

No where to go? I beg to differ. First off, the moment word that a compromise had not been reached betweenthe city and the Ticats, three different GTA municipalities contacted Young to feel him out on relocation. They know the cash follows him. Wherever the Ticats are is where the Pan Am stadium will go.

Young could also move his team anywhere in the Niagara Penninsula and still keep the Ticats branding and the fan base. Further afield, both Halifax and Ottawa are actively seeking a CFL team.

Bob Young is not a bluffer.

In terms of the CFL actually being in favor of a prospective move, however, Young has nothing. It's all pie-in-the-sky speculation if the league itself is not on board with the idea. (Think Phoenix Coyotes).

And, as things currently stand, the league has an long-established football community in Hamilton, versus a less successful venue in Ottawa, and untried (and unverifiable) levels of long-term community support elsewhere. From the league's perspective, the case for remaining in Hamilton will far outweigh moving the franchise elsewhere.

[SteelTown]

PAUL WILSON’S STREETBEAT

West is best for our new stadium

I’m on the mountaintop, standing in a waving field of wheat. Here, they say, from the stands of a new stadium, if it’s not too smoggy, you would be able to see the Toronto skyline.

The CFL TV crews would love that long shot. But is that what we’re looking for here, a chance to show Canada what Toronto looks like? Again?

I drove up here, where the Red Hill meets the Linc, for a geography lesson.

I’d never seen Meadowlands East, the big-box complex that popped up on a farmer’s field while I wasn’t looking.

Looks just like Ancaster, SilverCity and all. And right behind the Home Depot, on an earlobe shaped piece of land, is where the stadium would go.

How could it possibly qualify for $45 million from Hamilton’s precious Future Fund? That money is supposed to be about city building.

............

http://www.hamiltonspectator.com/pdfs/20100714/GO4.pdf

[dennis1]

In terms of the CFL actually being in favor of a prospective move, however, Young has nothing. It's all pie-in-the-sky speculation if the league itself is not on board with the idea. (Think Phoenix Coyotes).

And, as things currently stand, the league has an long-established football community in Hamilton, versus a less successful venue in Ottawa, and untried (and unverifiable) levels of long-term community support elsewhere. From the league's perspective, the case for remaining in Hamilton will far outweigh moving the franchise elsewhere.

Ottawa has 1.5 million people though.

[dennis1]

PAUL WILSON’S STREETBEAT

West is best for our new stadium

I’m on the mountaintop, standing in a waving field of wheat. Here, they say, from the stands of a new stadium, if it’s not too smoggy, you would be able to see the Toronto skyline.

The CFL TV crews would love that long shot. But is that what we’re looking for here, a chance to show Canada what Toronto looks like? Again?

I drove up here, where the Red Hill meets the Linc, for a geography lesson.

I’d never seen Meadowlands East, the big-box complex that popped up on a farmer’s field while I wasn’t looking.

Looks just like Ancaster, SilverCity and all. And right behind the Home Depot, on an earlobe shaped piece of land, is where the stadium would go.

How could it possibly qualify for $45 million from Hamilton’s precious Future Fund? That money is supposed to be about city building.

............

http://www.hamiltonspectator.com/pdfs/20100714/GO4.pdf

This guy better be careful. The Pan Am bid is for T-dot. They could have chosen to build the stadium in North York....

[LikeHamilton]

Besides, if they play in Stoney Creek, they may as well play in Halifax.

Actually the land at the Linc and the Red Hill is part of the old City of Hamilton and was not part of Stoney Creek. It is west if old Upper Mt. Albion Road.

[flar]

Ottawa has 1.5 million people though.

More like 1.2 million, and the land area needed to get that population in Ottawa would cover probably 4 or 5 million people in the Hamilton area.

Also note that Ottawa's CFL franchises keep folding, and their minor league baseball teams keep folding, despite having an awesome baseball stadium. And with the Sens, I can't even tell if it's a game day or not. Ottawa is not a sports town.

[dennis1]

That is true flar.


So we call his bluff then.

[highwater]

Keep going with west harbour and you'll see that we'll not only not have the PanAm Games but we'll also lose the Cats

Then we should keep going with WH, because this would be preferable to using our future fund to build a car-dependent sprawl stadium.

[highwater]

I would call Mr. Young's bluff.

I agree. When Bob Young made this threat, I imagine he thought he was only threatening a weak mayor and an unpopular council in an election year, but there has been a big public backlash to his bullying tactics. He may not be so tough when he realizes that in fact, he's threatening his fan base, and the very taxpayers he's going cap in hand to. He'd be in a much better position if he were offering the $50m it's going to take to get him his stadium, but he's offering no where near that.

[markbarbera]

Then we should keep going with WH, because this would be preferable to using our future fund to build a car-dependent sprawl stadium.

IMO our Future Fund should not be used for building a stadium regardless of its location. How is it that the city ended up on the hook for such a huge chunk of the stadium cost anyway?

[markbarbera]

More like 1.2 million, and the land area needed to get that population in Ottawa would cover probably 4 or 5 million people in the Hamilton area.

Also note that Ottawa's CFL franchises keep folding, and their minor league baseball teams keep folding, despite having an awesome baseball stadium. And with the Sens, I can't even tell if it's a game day or not. Ottawa is not a sports town.

The CFL has already secured a team for positioning in Ottawa for the 2012 season - the team owners collectively have put $7 million into a fund to secure a team. There are already 5000 season tickets pre-sold for the 2012 season.

[Anders Knudsen]

So as far as I can tell, right now we have:

For Harbour: Eisenberger, McHattie

For Mountain: Merulla, Morelli, Ferguson, Clark, Mitchell, Jackson

Against both: Bratina, Whitehead, McCarthy

Unknown: Duvall, Pearson, Pasuta, Powers, Collins

[SteelTown]

Merulla is a no for either West Harbour or East Mountain.

[dennis1]

This is simple NHL later or TiCats now.

[SteelTown]

Hume: Hamilton stadium should be downtown

Published On Thu Jul 15 2010
By Christopher Hume
Urban Issues, Architecture

On this the rules are clear; stadiums are about more than sports and entertainment. Done well, these facilities can be a means of civic revitalization.

But of course, they aren’t all done well. Just down the QEW, Hamilton seems increasingly determined to do the wrong thing and build its new stadium in a suburban site accessible only by car.

Despite approved plans to proceed with a new facility in the middle of a city that could use all the help it can get, Steeltown is now considering a location on the East Mountain, far from transit, and not walkable.

What makes the switch disturbing is that it comes not just because of pressure from would-be tenants, the Hamilton Tiger-Cats, but more worryingly, from the province. This even though it flies in the face of the Premier Dalton McGuinty’ own smart growth legislation.

The Ticats and their owner, Bob Young, insist fans want a “driveway to driveway” experience. The problem downtown, Young explains, is lack of parking.

Ticat fans apparently don’t walk, ride or take transit. If true, that would make them as antediluvian as Young, who has yet to put aside his club.

The thing is that as part of Ontario’s Pan-American Games bid, Hamilton promised a new stadium at a downtown site serviced by transit — GO trains and LRT. The subtext, of course, was that it would help trigger much-needed downtown renewal. Given Hamilton’s decline, it was an idea that made a whole lot of sense, with or without the Games.

........

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/836341--hume-hamilton-stadium-should-be-downtown

[BCTed]

This is simple NHL later or TiCats now.

Do you really think that the NHL is a lock if the Tiger-Cats are ignored?

[isaidso]

I've heard one of the biggest reason for the East Mountain location is to attract new fans from outside of the Hamilton region with the "driveway to driveway" experience.

The Lakeshore West line carries typically 180,000 riders on the GO Train during weekdays. Soon the Lakeshore West line will extend down to the Niagara Region for weekday service, bringing all day GO Train service to Hamilton. The GO Train towards the Niagara Region attracted an average of 2,902 riders just on weekend service only during Summer months.

The West Harbour stadium is literally steps away from the new James St North GO Station. The Lakeshore West line could attract thousands of new Ti Cats fans alone, espeically the Western GTAers, probably attract hundreds more with the GO Bus as well.

I am one of those GTA'ers that would go to Tiger Cats games if I can get there easily by GO Train/Bus. If I'm to make a day trip to Hamilton, I want to be able to see some of the city too. I don't want to be stuck in the middle of nowhere. What the hell am I going to do before and after the game? Look at the highway?!????

The overwhelming majority of Hamilton fans come from Hamilton. They are best served by a centrally located stadium. If the Tiger-Cats also want to reach out to other potential fans in southern Ontario, a downtown location makes more sense once again, especially if it's near a regional rail/bus station.

GO transit could only play a minor role in delivering fans to the site, no matter where it is located. The hourly Lakeshore train in a 12-carriage format has a capacity of just under 2000 passengers. If filled to capacity running in both directions, it could only deliver 10-15% of the capacity of a 25K-seat stadium at best.

A GO Train may only hold 2,000 passengers, but who says we'd all be on the same one. Some of us would come in the morning, hang out in the Hammer, go to the game, then maybe even do something else in town afterwards before heading home. I'm not about to make the effort and spend my day in the sticks.

Who says GO wouldn't put an extra train on if demand necessitates that. Isn't that their mandate? To service the inter-city rail needs of Southern Ontarians?

[isaidso]

realcity: Are the TiCats really worth losing Katz and a shot at the NHL?

The success of the oldest professional football team in north America must take priority over the potential to gain an NHL team. Hamilton will get an NHL team eventually. Sacrificing the Tiger-Cats to get one quicker is fool hardy.

That said, the Tiger-Cats won't leave Hamilton if West Harbour is built. What might happen is that the Tiger-Cats suffer a slow death if a stadium gets built at the suburban location. Not everyone is willing or able to drive all the way out there.

Young hasn't thought this through. He's his team's own worst enemy right now.

[dennis1]

The success of the oldest professional football team in north America must take priority over the potential to gain an NHL team. Hamilton will get an NHL team eventually. Sacrificing the Tiger-Cats to get one quicker is fool hardy.

That said, the Tiger-Cats won't leave Hamilton if West Harbour is built. What might happen is that the Tiger-Cats suffer a slow death if a stadium gets built at the suburban location. Not everyone is willing or able to drive all the way out there.

Bingo. That's what Young does not understand. If you build it out there it is the same as my proposal. If the NHL is downtown, who will go out to the burbs to watch the CFL?

[dennis1]

Do you really think that the NHL is a lock if the Tiger-Cats are ignored?

No, but if we do get a team the Ticats will die unless they are at the West Harbour.

[bigguy1231]

Bingo. That's what Young does not understand. If you build it out there it is the same as my proposal. If the NHL is downtown, who will go out to the burbs to watch the CFL?

Let's correct a common misconception here. The East Mountain site is not in the "Burbs". It is within the old city limits. It is not sprawl, the area has been developed for years. The bowling facility just down the road was built in the 70's. Many of the industrial properties there have been there since the 70's. Thats 40 years that the area has been developed. The proposed stadium location is one of the few properties in the area that have not been developed. If anything the stadium would be infill.

Don't get me wrong, I am opposed to the site. But it does nothing to enhance anyones credibility by referring to the site as suburban or sprawl. Let's put it in perspective. That area was developed for the most part when the population of Burlington was still less than 25,000.

[highwater]

Oh come on, bigguy. It is a greenfield site adjacent to low-density, car-dependent development - the very definition of suburban. It doesn't matter how long the development has been there. It is the character, not the age, of a development that defines it as suburban.

isaidso is quite right. This is in the middle of a cultural and social nowhere, if not a geographical nowhere, and no out of town visitor in their right mind would go out of their way to spend any more time in it than absolutely necessary.

[bikegypsy]

More like 1.2 million, and the land area needed to get that population in Ottawa would cover probably 4 or 5 million people in the Hamilton area.

Also note that Ottawa's CFL franchises keep folding, and their minor league baseball teams keep folding, despite having an awesome baseball stadium. And with the Sens, I can't even tell if it's a game day or not. Ottawa is not a sports town.

I disagree. If you would look at it as a businessman does you would focus on the "why it can". You know the real story about the CFL in Ottawa so I'm not even going to elaborate. As for baseball, it's dead or dying in Canada. Expos are gone and the Jays have horrible numbers at the gate. You might as well be talking about cricket. The Sens play 30kms west of downtown Ottawa granted but it is what it is for now.

And saying that Ottawa is not a sports town is such cookie-cutter oneliner which in no way helps Hamilton score what it wants. You forgot to focus on the positives and talk about the two very successful Junior hockey teams, the regular sale-outs at Scotia Place even if they require bumber to bumber traffic hell, the most succesful Jeux de la Francophonie as well as the successes of the FIFA U20 games here in 2007. And you know that the moment the Riders will be back, the crowds will be there.

Having said that, I would definitively call the bluff. After all, this is part of his business. People in Hamilton have to look at the big picture... everything in time will come. But at the end of the day, if this stadium ends up in the boonies and if Hamilton is a sports town, then fans will drive to the burbs to see the Ti Cats.

[isaidso]

Let's correct a common misconception here. The East Mountain site is not in the "Burbs". It is within the old city limits. It is not sprawl, the area has been developed for years. The bowling facility just down the road was built in the 70's. Many of the industrial properties there have been there since the 70's. Thats 40 years that the area has been developed. The proposed stadium location is one of the few properties in the area that have not been developed. If anything the stadium would be infill.

Don't get me wrong, I am opposed to the site. But it does nothing to enhance anyones credibility by referring to the site as suburban or sprawl. Let's put it in perspective. That area was developed for the most part when the population of Burlington was still less than 25,000.

It may not fit a rigid definition of 'suburb', but the point is that it's not central and has no transit. Someone mentioned that it's 11-12 km from downtown Hamilton and surrounded by highways/industrial. It may as well be in the middle of nowhere.

That the area was built 40 years ago is neither here nor there. How long an area has been developed isn't what's important.

[SteelTown]

Since the area is next to a big box complex the best kind of entertainment you can at East Mountain site is these chain restaurants and bars like Kelsey, Boston Pizza, Montana, etc. No local owned bars and pubs like at Hess Village and downtown.

Don't think there's even a Beer Store or LCBO at the complex, could have gotten a bottle at LCBO and went to Petsmart for a dog bowl to drink out of.

[dennis1]

Fair enough bigguy. I still don't like the site.

[dennis1]

Since the area is next to a big box complex the best kind of entertainment you can at East Mountain site is these chain restaurants and bars like Kelsey, Boston Pizza, Montana, etc. No local owned bars and pubs like at Hess Village and downtown.

Don't think there's even a Beer Store or LCBO at the complex, could have gotten a bottle at LCBO and went to Petsmart for a dog bowl to drink out of.

Young might as well move to Oakville.

[SteelTown]

The spec poll is a dead tie now. Perhaps people are starting to have a second sober thought about the East Mountain location?

[bigguy1231]

Fair enough bigguy. I still don't like the site.

I agree with you, I don't like the site either.

Just for information purposes. I drove from the Leon's right near the proposed site to Upper James and Mohawk using the Linc for the most part and it was 8.8 kms.

[markbarbera]

The spec poll is a dead tie now. Perhaps people are starting to have a second sober thought about the East Mountain location?

The question isn't asking where we think council should decide to put it, it is asking where we think the city will decide to put it. Two different things entirely. It also happens to be a leading question.

[thistleclub]

Let's correct a common misconception here. The East Mountain site is not in the "Burbs". It is within the old city limits. It is not sprawl, the area has been developed for years. The bowling facility just down the road was built in the 70's. Many of the industrial properties there have been there since the 70's. Thats 40 years that the area has been developed. The proposed stadium location is one of the few properties in the area that have not been developed. If anything the stadium would be infill.

Don't get me wrong, I am opposed to the site. But it does nothing to enhance anyones credibility by referring to the site as suburban or sprawl. Let's put it in perspective. That area was developed for the most part when the population of Burlington was still less than 25,000.

Splitting hairs, admittedly, but Burlington's population was around 100,000 in the mid-70s. I suspect that you'd have to go back to the ’40s and the Village of Burlington to find a population of less than 25,000. And the entire mountain was considerably less developed at that time.

EM-related, here's a salvo from Carmens president PJ Mercanti, in favour of residential development for the WH and in defense of the business positives of the EM stadium location. Could it signal an impending stampede of visionary private investors ready to reduce the city's burden? Patience, young grasshopper...

http://forums.ticats.ca/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=55543&start=1995#p938277

[SteelTown]

MSU supports West Harbour Stadium Site

http://www.msumcmaster.ca/news/msuNews.htm

The McMaster Students Union supports the construction of the proposed new Hamilton stadium in the original West Harbour location, rather than the East Mountain location that has recently been considered.

The MSU believes that the proposed East Mountain site is counter-productive from an environmental, social and economic point of view. This site would only work to further encourage urban sprawl in a city that desperately needs to revitalize its core and would promote the continued use of cars, rather than a transit revamp that is required downtown. Building the stadium will result in a stronger community, one that is united in a cohesive core, rather than spread even further across the region. Furthermore, the proposed site is very inaccessible to McMaster students who live on campus or around campus and who are interested in watching the Pan Am games or the Hamilton Tiger-Cats. Therefore the MSU believes that the West Harbour site is in the best interest of the McMaster Community.

[SteelTown]

City will make the call on Future Fund
Legacy account is to enhance social fabric, special projects

July 17, 2010
Emma Reilly
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/809391

If the Pan Am stadium is built at the east Mountain site, is Hamilton's Future Fund still an appropriate source of funding?

The top steward of the legacy city account isn't so sure.

Tom Weisz, CEO and president of Effort Trust and chairperson of the Future Fund board of governors, says the east Mountain site may not fit the fund's mandated focus on downtown projects.

"The opportunity to revitalize and clean up that site in the west harbour was quite an exciting idea," he said. "This new alternate site that's been proposed certainly doesn't fit those criteria."

Weisz says the Future Fund board of governors is co-ordinating a meeting to discuss whether the east Mountain site fits the goals of the account.

"It's not an easy decision. When things change, you have to go back and revisit it," he said.

Council has until August 10 to decide whether the Pan Am stadium will be built at west harbour or east Mountain.

Ticats owner Bob Young has offered $15 million toward the stadium construction and $3 million a year in operating costs if council chooses east Mountain.

According to Future Fund board member Councillor Brian McHattie -- who first raised the concerns about using the fund for east Mountain -- the board of governors can only make recommendations to council.

"Council can and does and did trump the Future Fund board of governors," he said.

The Future Fund was created in 2002 with a one-time injection of $137 million from Hamilton Hydro that former mayor Bob Wade called "a godsend."

The city raised the $137 million by asking Hamilton Hydro to borrow against its assets. That loan is being repaid by hydro users through their bills. At the advice of a panel of community members and politicians, the city set aside $100 million as a community trust fund to be a perpetual source of money for special projects.

The other $37 million was set aside to be spent between 2002 and 2007 on high-priority projects such as restoring the Art Gallery of Hamilton, rebuilding Hughson Street downtown, contributing to the Dieppe Memorial on the Beach Strip and helping Hamilton Food Share.

Its mission statement is "to preserve and manage a permanent, self-sustaining fund as a lasting legacy for current and future generations of Hamiltonians to enjoy economic prosperity, enhanced social fabric, and enhanced community life."

According to the city's finance staff, the actual balance at the end of 2009 was $63 million and the projected balance is $49 million at the end of 2010.

By 2013 and 2014, approved commitments, such as the 2015 Pan Am Games, will bring the balance down to about $20 million.

[SteelTown]

Envision the harbourfront tailgate
Waterfront still the spot, says accountant and supporters at Rheem rally

July 17, 2010
John Kernaghan
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/809405

Bob Young's $74-million financial commitment for an east Mountain Pan Am Games stadium site is actually much smaller in real terms.

That's what a rally in support of the west harbour location heard yesterday.

Accountant Don Forbes said there is $15 million in solid money in Young's offer.

And in an interview later, he said that $15 million might return to Young if his contribution is contingent on getting naming rights for the stadium.

"It could very well work that way," said Forbes, one of several speakers who described themselves as young professionals passionate about downtown revitalization. They spoke at the former Rheem property in the west harbour area.

The accountant, who is with MacGillivray Chartered Accountants and Business Advisors, said the other elements of Young's $74 million were appreciated but still simply part of doing business.

He agreed the Ticat approach to the east Mountain site has some parallels with the way Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment (MLSE) leveraged public money.

The Tiger-Cats openly love the MLSE deal, in which it contributed $18 million, $10 of that for naming rights, on top of $35 million in public money and land for a soccer stadium to host an international event.

MLSE then struck a deal reported to be worth $27 million over 10 years with the Bank of Montreal for naming rights. That spawned BMO Field.

Young wants a 10-year deal to run a stadium on east Mountain.

The Ticats were asked to lead the private sector in coming up with as much as $50 million on top of $102 million in public funds to boost the Pan Am track and field venue to 25,000 seats.

Forbes said Young's list of investments in the Tiger-Cats (in his $74-million offer) "is a good thing but I think they would all work better down here."

Another speaker at the rally said the Tiger-Cats are missing a big marketing and economic opportunity in not exploiting the possibilities at a west harbour site.

"Imagine a blimp showing images of a sea of black and gold stretched out over Bayfront Park," said Tim Mattioli of the Realtors Association of Hamilton-Burlington. "You get one-day special liquor permits and have people tailgating before and after Ticat games."

He said the Ticats could get revenue from 1,200 to 1,500 parking spots along the waterfront as well as up to 1,200 right at the stadium.

Patricia Roque, owner of Acclamation restaurant on James Street North, said her family is committed to rebuilding downtown and noted a west harbour stadium could trigger another development at a James Street location.

[SteelTown]

Did anyone catch Bob Young's interview on TSN yesterday?

Think Bob mentioned there will be an announcement next week about the East Mountain stadium.

[Jon Dalton]

There's a rumour that Ian Troop is going to pull the plug on our stadium funding due to the all the controversy over location. Anyone know anything?

[dennis1]

This is BS!

[Jon Dalton]

At this point I'd be satisfied with any outcome that isn't a sprawl stadium.

[SteelTown]

At this point I hope Ian pulls the plug. Enough with Bob Young putting a loaded gun to the City's head.

Put $20 million towards Ivor Wynne and $25 million towards the waterfront.

Better luck with a new stadium for a 2030 Commonwealth Games bid.

[matt602]

At this point I can see Hamilton being completely excluded from the entire Pan-Am committee for not being able to decide on anything.

Reach, Dream, etc.

[bigguy1231]

I think the federal and provincial politicians who are providing the funding might have something to say to Mr. Troop if he does decide to fund a stadium elsewhere. There is no justification for it. A stadium isn't going to be any more viable somewhere else than it will be here.

Forget about them building a stadium in the Toronto area it's just not going to happen. The Ticats might move but it will not be in the Toronto area. The Argo's can't draw flies, adding a second team to the mix would kill both teams. Killing either of those teams would be the end of the CFL. The Ticat games on TSN last year had most of the highest ratings of all the games broadcast.

Toronto is the media centre of the country. Without a Toronto team the advertisers wouldn't even give the league a thought.

[markbarbera]

At this point I hope Ian pulls the plug. Enough with Bob Young putting a loaded gun to the City's head.

Put $20 million towards Ivor Wynne and $25 million towards the waterfront.

Better luck with a new stadium for a 2030 Commonwealth Games bid.

This is not so much about Bob Young holding a gun to anyone's head is it is about this city failing at proper planning once again. West Harbour was a poor site selection when it was first made. Bratina raised a warning flag and tried to get council to consider alternate downtown sites, all to no avail. Morelli then took a turn to bring some sense of rationality to site selection and pushed for the need for a lower city 'plan B' site, but council refused to consider anything but West Harbour. Then, during facilitation with Fenn, Young tried to get the city to consider ten other locations, several of which were in relatively close proximity to the downtown. Again the city rejected every proposed location. (and the cock cried a third time). Ultimately it was Fenn who came up with the compromise location on the east mountain.

The people raising up their arms and shrieking in in protest to the east mountain site are architects of their own nightmare. It has been obvious for months that Barton and Tiffany was not going to be a workable site. Instead of acknowledging its shortcomings and trying to either resolve those shortcomings or find a more suitable inner city, the city remained steadfast in sticking to their bad decision. And now we are at the point where, once again, the city has engineered another opportunity sail-by. Pat yourselfs on the back, another job well f***ed up.

[isaidso]

The Argo's can't draw flies, adding a second team to the mix would kill both teams. Killing either of those teams would be the end of the CFL. The Ticat games on TSN last year had most of the highest ratings of all the games broadcast.


Agree, Toronto is by far the worst football market in Canada. They only drew 20,242 to their home opener, the lowest attendance figure in the country. Some US high schools draw more fans to football than our nation's largest city. Toronto doesn't support any of their football teams, and they want another one. That's rich!

:no:

Like it or not, football in Toronto needs to be resuscitated for the health of our nation's football league. Our league isn't strong enough yet to prosper without a team in our largest city. Maybe in 20 years it will be, but it's not right now.

[dennis1]

North York will be more profitable. Downsview? goldmine.

[dennis1]

Agree, Toronto is by far the worst football market in Canada. They only drew 20,242 to their home opener, the lowest attendance figure in the country. Some US high schools draw more fans to football than our nation's largest city. Toronto doesn't support any of their football teams, and they want another one. That's rich!

:no:

Like it or not, football in Toronto needs to be resuscitated for the health of our nation's football league. Our league isn't strong enough yet to prosper without a team in our largest city. Maybe in 20 years it will be, but it's not right now.

They don't for the AHL either. Seems like Toronto wants only the top of the line (NFL). They have 6.3 million I don't blame them. Montreal would too if they had the chance.

[thurmas]

I am sorry but the ti-cats never draw the most viewers on tsn it is always the roughriders they draw over a million viewers a game this year the ti-cats are usually the lowest ratings wise because their fan base is so small.as to the argos drawing only 20,000 for their opener that isn't too bad considering how bad they have been the past 2 seasons,the ownership fiasco this past winter which gave the club no time to market in the winter because brayley had no time to set up a ticket campaign and the game was on a wednesday night which makes no sense whatsoever.

[SteelTown]

During the CBC strike TSN got the right to only televise the Hamilton-Toronto Labour Day game because of the rating.

[bigguy1231]

I am sorry but the ti-cats never draw the most viewers on tsn it is always the roughriders they draw over a million viewers a game this year the ti-cats are usually the lowest ratings wise because their fan base is so small.as to the argos drawing only 20,000 for their opener that isn't too bad considering how bad they have been the past 2 seasons,the ownership fiasco this past winter which gave the club no time to market in the winter because brayley had no time to set up a ticket campaign and the game was on a wednesday night which makes no sense whatsoever.

You might want to check the figures. It was in all of the papers last year. Ticat games are the biggest draw on tv, losers or not.

As for the roughriders drawing over a million a game. The average viewership for the CFL is about 300,000. Rarely do games draw more than 500,000, other than for playoffs or the Grey Cup. The top 3 regular season games for viewership last year involved the Ticats.

[thurmas]

I am sorry but you are totally wrong the cfl is far more popular than you think. here is week 2's sports ratings in english canada form the toronto star media watch:

1. World Cup, Netherlands vs. Spain, Sunday, CBC: 5,131,000

2. World Cup, Germany vs. Uruguay, Saturday, CBC: 1,894,000

3. CFL, Roughriders at Lions, Saturday, TSN: 1,186,000

4. CFL, Argonauts at Blue Bombers, Friday, TSN: 806,000

5. CFL, Alouettes at Eskimos, Sunday, TSN: 657,000

6. CFL, Stampeders at Tiger-Cats, Saturday, TSN: 454,000

7. MLB, Red Sox at Blue Jays, Sunday, Sportsnet: 449,000

8. MLB. Red Sox at Blue Jays, Saturday, Sportsnet: 361,000

9. Soccer, Soccer Day In Canada, Saturday, CBC: 355,000

10. Rodeo, Calgary Stampede, Saturday, CBC: 351,000

11. MLB, Red Sox at Blue Jays, Friday, Sportsnet: 311,000

12. Auto Racing, F-1 British Grand Prix, Sundady, TSN: 280,000

13. Rodeo, Calgary Stampede, Friday, CBC: 227,000

14. Equestrian, Spruce Meadows Show Jumping, Satuday, CBC: 220,000

15. Soccer, Colorado at Toronto FC, Saturday, CBC: 215,000


and here is week 1:

1. World Cup, Argentina vs. Germany, Saturday, CBC: 1,950,000

2. World Cup, Paraguay vs. Spain, Saturday, CBC: 1,938,000

3. World Cup, Uruguay vs. Ghana, Friday, CBC: 1,853,000

4. World Cup, Netherlands vs. Brazil, Friday, CBC: 1,841,000

5. CFL, Alouettes at Roughriders, Thursday, TSN: 1,060,000

6. CFL, Lions at Eskimos, Sunday, TSN: 921,000

7. CFL, Tiger-Cats at Blue Bombers, Friday, TSN: 882,000

8. Horse racing, Queen's Plate, Sunday, CBC: 700,000

9. CFL, Argonauts at Stampeders, Thursday, TSN: 658,000

10. Track and Field, Diamond League, Saturday, CBC: 475,000

11. MLB, Blue Jays at Yankees, Saturday, Sportsnet: 417,000

12. Auto racing, NASCAR Sprint Cup, Saturday, TSN: 405,000

13. Tennis, Wimbledon men's final, Sunday, NBC/Global: 378,000

14. MLB, Blue Jays at Yankees, Saturday, Sportsnet: 341,000

[bigguy1231]

Well I find that hard to believe since the average viewership for all games last year was 371,000 per game. The highest viewership for a single regular season game was 563,000. That information is on the TSN website. So what your saying is that the average this year has doubled. If that was the case it would be all over the news which it isn't, In fact TSN has reported ratings are lower than expected.

[isaidso]

Thurmas is correct. CFL games routinely draw more than 500,000 viewers. A good number of games draw over 1,000,000 viewers.

[isaidso]

They don't for the AHL either. Seems like Toronto wants only the top of the line (NFL). They have 6.3 million I don't blame them. Montreal would too if they had the chance.

Most largest cities behave as incubators and boosters of a nation's culture, not places that abandon their own country. Are people in Amsterdam, Paris, and Rome abandoning their Dutch, French, and Italian leagues in the hopes of joining the English Premiership? No, they support their clubs which in turn act as stalwart franchises for their domestic leagues.

A large population simply means that Toronto should be able to support 3,4,5 football teams and be the city that carries the league.

Torontonians should be lifting our national football league to new highs, but seem intent on ditching Canada for the United States. On this front, Toronto is a disgrace and an utter failure when it comes to building our national pro sports system. Toronto, a US wannabe? Sounds like a well earned description to me.

Grade: F

[isaidso]

If I were the NFL, I wouldn't touch Toronto with a 10 foot pole. Put a team in a city that actually cares about football. There are probably 100 cities and towns in the United States alone that get more than 20,000 people out to support their football teams.

If Toronto cared about this sport, they'd support the football teams they have now. Toronto would quickly become the laughing stock of the NFL if a team landed here; we'd be the Phoenix Coyotes of the NFL. Big city, but do these people really care about football? NOPE!

Buffalo knows what terrible football 'fans' Torontonians are first hand. They weren't too happy at the comatosed people that showed up at that Bills game at Skydome. "Worst football fans in the world", was a common sentiment.

[thurmas]

iam sorry bigguy but these numbers are not from tsn they are from neilsen ratings and published in chris zelkovich's sports media column online on the toronto star's webiste they are not fake. Look at the other ratings in my post it shows sportsnets ratings for baseball and cbc's for world cup they are legit.

[Acajack]

Most largest cities behave as incubators and boosters of a nation's culture, not places that abandon their own country. Are people in Amsterdam, Paris, and Rome abandoning their Dutch, French, and Italian leagues in the hopes of joining the English Premiership? No, they support their clubs which in turn act as stalwart franchises for their domestic leagues.

A large population simply means that Toronto should be able to support 3,4,5 football teams and be the city that carries the league.

Torontonians should be lifting our national football league to new highs, but seem intent on ditching Canada for the United States. On this front, Toronto is a disgrace and an utter failure when it comes to building our national pro sports system. Toronto, a US wannabe? Sounds like a well earned description to me.

Grade: F


This is the way things are in almost every country in the world but apparently Canada (and Toronto even moreso) is "special"...

[waterloowarrior]

Well I find that hard to believe since the average viewership for all games last year was 371,000 per game. The highest viewership for a single regular season game was 563,000. That information is on the TSN website. So what your saying is that the average this year has doubled. If that was the case it would be all over the news which it isn't, In fact TSN has reported ratings are lower than expected.

The ratings system changed in late August 2009... the new system also tracks "out of home" viewership, which means sports events get higher and more accurate ratings since many people watch them in bars or at friends' homes

http://www.thestar.com/article/694051

[dennis1]

Most largest cities behave as incubators and boosters of a nation's culture, not places that abandon their own country. Are people in Amsterdam, Paris, and Rome abandoning their Dutch, French, and Italian leagues in the hopes of joining the English Premiership? No, they support their clubs which in turn act as stalwart franchises for their domestic leagues.

A large population simply means that Toronto should be able to support 3,4,5 football teams and be the city that carries the league.

Torontonians should be lifting our national football league to new highs, but seem intent on ditching Canada for the United States. On this front, Toronto is a disgrace and an utter failure when it comes to building our national pro sports system. Toronto, a US wannabe? Sounds like a well earned description to me.

Grade: F

That is completely different. All those leagues are top of the line soccer/football. The CFL is second tier(some might even say third behind US college) I guess new york is a bad sports city because they they don't inhibit the whole US culture. Things are different in a large city. Canada is no different. Plus the CFL is mostly american players that could not make it to the big show. (I don't know why because the rules have been change significantly change since the 90's where small players had no shot of getting in.) Just like the AHL is for young players or people that couldn't get to the NHL.

For the record. They show up for the Leafs but not the Marlies. If prices were cheaper, and it was not the awful Bills, they would show up for the NFL in droves. If you call that out then we have to get rid of the Blue Jays and Raptors too, and start a Canadian Hockey League because the NHL is now a New York City organization too.

EDIT: Acajack has it

[dennis1]

1 million? Many tv shows draw more!

[SteelTown]

Interesting reading......

http://hamiltonbay.blogspot.com/p/vision-for-future.html

This proposal from Whitestar Group is gaining more attention. It's the first piece of CHCH News which McHattie spoke about. Bratina is next on CHCH. CHCH is calling this a game changer.

[SteelTown]

As reported on CHCH News @ six
http://www.chchnews.ca/index.php/home/57-hamilton/268-new-west-harbour-proposal-a-potential-game-changer

[SteelTown]

Bratina is on CHCH right now and is supporting this new proposal for West Harbour.