Tim Hortons Field | 40m | ? | Complete

[markbarbera]

Mark is probably right.

This means that McGuinty has violated the places to grow act. This now means Vaughan and Markham and Oshawa et al with probably file suit to start sprawling again. And they should. If Hamilton does not have to play by the rules why should they.

How would the EM location have been a violation of Places to Grow? It is within the designated urban boundary for the city, in a space the PTG act identified for development. It actually would have been in full compliance with Places to Grow.

[Migs]

Hey Migs
Congrats your like every other ignorant person out there who thinks hamilton is nothing but smoke stacks. I've been to your little city and its nothing great. I couldn't wait to leave in fact. I was only like 8 years old and even at a young age I knew that it sucked.
Relax, I know Hamilton is alot more than just smoke stacks, I'm just busting your chops. Up until this unfortunate fiasco Hamilton was near the top of my list of cities in Canada to visit, especially for a CFL game as I know how great ticat fans are (and they got a pretty damn good team as well).

[realcity]

A press release from Hostco today announced it is creating a sports/events cluster around York U (near the 401). Citing on budget and ontime reasons. A consolidation will be easier and more accessible for athletes and fans.

[mattgrande]

Here's the press release: http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/August2010/23/c4135.html

I guess that means Fletcher's Field is losing rugby, then? That's too bad, they could've really used the extra bucks that Pan Am would've brought.

[markbarbera]

So the new track and field stadium originally proposed for Hamilton ends up at York University.

[highwater]

...thanks to Athletics Canada's concern that the stadium was too focused on football. Thanks, Bob!

[realcity]

next is soccer and the stadium. Looks like it will get built with highway access and visibility anyway..... just not in Hamilton. I guess this city gets what it deserves.

[Mister F]

next is soccer and the stadium. Looks like it will get built with highway access and visibility anyway..... just not in Hamilton. I guess this city gets what it deserves.
The tennis stadium at York is just as far from the 400 as West Harbour is from the 403 (about 2.5 km). It's invisible from major streets, it's an easy walk to a future subway station, and parking is shared with other uses. Sounds like it has more in common with West Harbour than East Mountain.

[Migs]

next is soccer and the stadium. Looks like it will get built with highway access and visibility anyway..... just not in Hamilton. I guess this city gets what it deserves.
Fascinating!

[markbarbera]

...thanks to Athletics Canada's concern that the stadium was too focused on football. Thanks, Bob!

Since Bob isn't bringing his Ticats to the WH site, a stadium there no longer needed to focus on football. But Hostco still decided to place the T&F stadium elsewhere. What does that say?

In actuality, Athletics Canada's main concern was the travel time from the athlete's village to the event venue. But who knows, maybe they thought there wasn't enough parking, either.

[markbarbera]

The tennis stadium at York is just as far from the 400 as West Harbour is from the 403 (about 2.5 km). It's invisible from major streets, it's an easy walk to a future subway station, and parking is shared with other uses. Sounds like it has more in common with West Harbour than East Mountain.

And, like the failed WH location, the Tiger-Cats will not be locating at York University.

[realcity]

The tennis stadium at York is just as far from the 400 as West Harbour is from the 403 (about 2.5 km). It's invisible from major streets, it's an easy walk to a future subway station, and parking is shared with other uses. Sounds like it has more in common with West Harbour than East Mountain.

That's the tennis bubble. I'm predicting the stadium will be around Downsview Airport. Allen Expressway/Keele/401 area.

The airport will be convenient for the Lions, Stamp, Bombers etc and o ya the Halifax or Quebec City Tiger Cats too.

[markbarbera]

That's the tennis bubble. I'm predicting the stadium will be around Downsview Airport. Allen Expressway/Keele/401 area.

The airport will be convenient for the Lions, Stamp, Bombers etc and o ya the Halifax or Quebec City Tiger Cats too.

There is a very large undeveloped site at the south-east corner of the 400/407 interchange...

[realcity]

this is an interesting vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTPlA59KrqA&feature=related

[dennis1]

There is a very large undeveloped site at the south-east corner of the 400/407 interchange...

That is private land and will not be used for the CFL.

[LikeHamilton]

realcity

this is an interesting vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTPlA...eature=related



This is not even close to where the stadium is going. This is 1.4 km as the crow fly’s and 2 km road distance from the stadium.

[markbarbera]

This is not even close to where the stadium is going. This is 1.4 km as the crow fly’s and 2 km road distance from the stadium.

What stadium? That ship has sailed.

[Mister F]

That's the tennis bubble. I'm predicting the stadium will be around Downsview Airport. Allen Expressway/Keele/401 area.
Oh ok, I thought you were talking about York. I'm still not convinced that the Ti-Cats are going anywhere. Where else are they going to get a brand new stadium for free? If it's somewhere in the GTA then good luck building a whole new fan base.

Just curious, why do you call the Rexall centre a "tennis bubble"? It's a 12,000 seat stadium....

[Berklon]

What stadium? That ship has sailed.

Oh God, I hope so. Then the city can get on with more important things.

[matt602]

What stadium? That ship has sailed.

I don't remember seeing any sort of source that says the stadium is or isn't going to be built. If anything, that ship never arrived in the first place.

[realcity]

I don't remember seeing any sort of source that says the stadium is or isn't going to be built. If anything, that ship never arrived in the first place.

How about the PanAm pitch book? Start there and you'll see that Hamilton was to host track and field in a new stadium that would afterwards be home to the ticats as a legacy tenant. I think the ship did come or tried to come anyway. It waited at the lift bridge but turned away when it never lifted. *in keeping with the metaphor*

I don't understand. Now that we wont get a stadium, WH supporters are saying that we were never getting a stadium in the first place? or that now that we didn't get the stadium in WH, WH supporters are now glad that we're not getting any stadium? But at the same time were so adamant about it that they now think we should move on to 'more important things'. Actually, the WH supporters are planning how to take the flack for losing the stadium and the Ticats, by shrugging their shoulders and saying 'who cares both were never important to the city in the first place'. If you really believed that, then why were you so militant about the issue?

Admit it, forcing the WH location caused Hostco and the Cats to walk away from Hamilton. period. And your precious 'can't do anything wrong' mayor's loss in October. You triple fucked-up because now DiIanni will win.

Or is all this Bob Young's fault for wanting to make a profit? Heaven forbid that. Or somehow it's DiIanni fault? IW was slated to be torn down with a PanAm stadium what the heck is bob young supposed to do in 2012? He has to leave a city that doesn't have a stadium. WTF?

Look, Fred hired a mediator to find a compromise location. He did EM. It wasn't Bob's choice, but it was a location he could live with. A compromise. Then the mayor decides he doesn't like the compromise location and goes back to his original. You didn't Bob go back to his original preference (confed park), no he met the city halfway true to the mediating process. Why did Fred bother to hire a mediator in the first place if his intention was never to compromise on a location?

Let's get back to more important things. Like what I ask? Like perhaps "city building"? I thought a big component of the city building agenda was to have a new stadium. No, the city getting back to more important things means, fixing potholes in the summer and concerning ourselves with snowplowing issues in the winter. Really big city building visions like that.

The more important things is not vote for one single incumbent next election. Except perhaps Bratina, I still like him. But has got to be the biggest stuck-in-mud four years of Hamilton's history. Nothing happened! Except Harper and McQuinty paying for a new farmers market and library (with tax dollars). I gave a performance review of this past four years can anyone honestly say it is worthy of re-election for anyone?


Look at this list...
- Lakeport
- Seimens
- Stelco
- Royal Connaught
- Century Theatre
- we even lost Stoney Creek Diary
- the decrease of quality of retail in the most visible part of the city, even World of Books is I think a crack pipe store now.
- no commitment for LRT, not even an agreed upon route
- No Education Square or downtown Mac campus
- Empty rotting Federal building
- HMP
- no new hotels (i thought that was holding us back? from conventions and tourism)
- Tape-Gate
- no transparency at City Hall
- City Hall for that matter, $80 million for a building that we could replicate according to our city's own 'architecturally protected buildings' by-law
- no new condos, unless you call geared to income housing a benefit to the core.
- unemployment rising while the rest of the province adds jobs
- nothing to reverse the trend of 25% poverty rate for children, except a fancy slogan
- And the biggest snafu... the loss of the PanAm Games...a new Ticat stadium and a park developed at WH. Big whoop a velodrome (if we get that), even Western U has one of those, and I expect that will go to York. Loss of a pro soccer team.

Am I missing anything?

I hope to god that you guys never get called for jury duty, because even with an overwhelming amount of evidence and arguments against your position, you'd chose to ignore it.

[isaidso]

Hamilton still needs a stadium to replace Ivor Wynne. Has that discussion not started yet, or are people's personal agendas still getting in the way?

[Berklon]

Sorry, but I don't think the stadium is that important... especially since it won't get used very often at all. And if those here that say a stadium at the WH or downtown won't spur redevelopment in our downtown are right - then it's even less important. Put it at the EM and it guarantees to not help the downtown.

No-one cares about Pan-Am and the city is divided on the location... so why rush a stadium? Continue to play out of IWS. In the meantime use those efforts to try and redevelop downtown - that should be our main goal... however it will be done.

If this "ship has sailed" already, then it's over. Why are we still discussing a stadium?

[BCTed]

The ship has not sailed. Sheesh.

[mattgrande]

I don't know why we're still debating this.

The city council has voted for, approved, re-voted for, and re-approved the West Harbour location.

The Ti Cats have completely backed out of talks. They're done with the whole process.

The stadium we are building now (or should be focusing on) should more resemble the one that was supposed to be built in Burlington, that the proposed stadium in the pitch book. Burlington's legacy tenant was community sports, with the possibility of a second-tier soccer team.

If the Ti-Cats want to come back to the table to negotiate the use of the West Harbour, then I think we should let them, but it's far, far too late in the process to be looking at a new location.

[Mister F]

Or is all this Bob Young's fault for wanting to make a profit?
And yet we've seen zero proof that WH would cause Bob Young to lose money. Why can't he make money there when so many other teams can make money in similar locations? If the team loses money at WH it's nobody's fault but Bob Young's.

[highwater]

Since Bob isn't bringing his Ticats to the WH site, a stadium there no longer needed to focus on football. But Hostco still decided to place the T&F stadium elsewhere. What does that say?

In actuality, Athletics Canada's main concern was the travel time from the athlete's village to the event venue. But who knows, maybe they thought there wasn't enough parking, either.

That may have been their original objection to Hamilton, but when the switch was made, it was clearly stated that Athletics Canada was worried that the stadium was too focused on football.

So Bob Young stole the high profile Track and Field events from us, and now thanks to his political machinations, and now he may steal the stadium from us altogether.

Did Fred dis you at a cocktail party or something? You can keep on madly spinning, but anyone with eyes in their head can see that the fault for this debacle lies solely at the feet of Bob Young and the McGuinty Liberals.

[markbarbera]

Highwater, that is over the top, even for you.

The original stadium format was supported by everyone involved save for Athletics Canada. To blame Bob Young for Athletics Canada's objection to a shared-use facility is at best disingenuous. Furthermore, their concern was that all track elements may be removed post-Games, and it was a secondary concern. Their main concern was its distance from the athletes' village. The "Bob Young is Evil" routine is tired.

Bob Young is not responsible for the mess this city finds itself in. The city has made a decision with risks that were known and consequences that were clear to all. It has been no secret for months now that the Ticats were not going to play at Barton and Tiffany. Mayor Fred decided to be unwilling to compromise in any way, shape or form. He rigged the facilitation process to become a divisive urban/suburbal debate, he witheld information from council, he even attempted to negotiate a stadium agreement with Katz/AEG all the while pretending to negotiate in good faith during facilitation.

There is enough blame to go around for everyone involved. But the bottom line is, Fred Eisenberger as mayor had a duty to bring all the parties together and broker an agreement acceptable to all parties and he has failed to do so. As a result, we lose $50 million in funding from higher levels of government, we lose the opportunity to replace aging infrastructure in the city, and we lose a 141-year-old CFL franchise. No matter how anyone tries to paint it, this is a monumental fail on his part.

[realcity]

And yet we've seen zero proof that WH would cause Bob Young to lose money. Why can't he make money there when so many other teams can make money in similar locations? If the team loses money at WH it's nobody's fault but Bob Young's.

The proof is that he hired consultants (several experts in pro sports business operations) and ALL reported that WH IS THE WORST LOCATION. Does he need to email you all the consultants reports that he paid for and are confidential, to prove that to you. Or do you "feel" is he a lying businessman? Someone who gained the respect of the entire IT world, *I guess you think he got that respect from being a conniving liar*.

Bottom line. Because Bob said it would lose money, something like $3m a year. A business person would not walk away from a chance to make money. If the consultants told him EH would make money he would be there. Why do we keep having to repeat these things? No matter what is said against WH from a business perspective, even from city building perspective you won;t believe it.

Please do not ever be on jury duty. you would convict an innocent person of murder because you couldn't agree with his objective perspective on something irrelevant which forced you to "feel" he was lying in the face of evidence that proved otherwise.

"Feelings and emotions" don't make business decisions. Business makes business decisions. The Ticat's job is not to rebuild downtown, their job is make money from providing a good product and a good experience to its customers.

[realcity]

It has been no secret for months now that the Ticats were not going to play at Barton and Tiffany. Mayor Fred decided to be unwilling to compromise in any way, shape or form. He rigged the facilitation process to become a divisive urban/suburbal debate, he witheld information from council, he even attempted to negotiate a stadium agreement with Katz/AEG all the while pretending to negotiate in good faith during facilitation.

This is all true fact. I would even go so far as to say that Fred knows this next election is once again a divisive choice between suburbs and urban again against Di Ianni. He's shoring up his urban vote which it seems is unshakable no matter what he does.

As far as that call from the Premiere's office.... You don't deny it never happened and demand an apology. Then go, oh yea it did happen, (you caught me) but nothing was really said.... It was an opportunity from the Premiere's office to have that discussion further and he said 'I'll pass'.

We could've had a new stadium PLUS real city building investment from QP and he passed on that opportunity.

[realcity]

Sorry, but I don't think the stadium is that important... especially since it won't get used very often at all. And if those here that say a stadium at the WH or downtown won't spur redevelopment in our downtown are right - then it's even less important. Put it at the EM and it guarantees to not help the downtown.

No-one cares about Pan-Am and the city is divided on the location... so why rush a stadium? Continue to play out of IWS. In the meantime use those efforts to try and redevelop downtown - that should be our main goal... however it will be done.

If this "ship has sailed" already, then it's over. Why are we still discussing a stadium?

A stadium is not that important? Jeez, if it isn't, why is the entire city buzzing about it for months? Won't get used that often? Ticats, pro soccer, concerts, probably used more than Copps is. No one cares about PanAm? It's Only one of the biggest sporting events on the planet. Major league cities spend millions of dollars on it, it's very competitive just trying to get the Games! Ya, no one cares about PanAm.
Some of the stupidest things are being said on the forum lately.

[Berklon]

A stadium is not that important? Jeez, if it isn't, why is the entire city buzzing about it for months? Won't get used that often? Ticats, pro soccer, concerts, probably used more than Copps is.

Pro soccer? what Pro soccer? They won't even get MLS. So you're talking about NASL and USL? :haha: It wont draw flies. :rolleyes: Concerts? Not at the EM. Build a real amphitheatre at the WH and THEN we're talking concerts.

No one cares about PanAm? It's Only one of the biggest sporting events on the planet. Major league cities spend millions of dollars on it, it's very competitive just trying to get the Games! Ya, no one cares about PanAm.

I don't know one single person that actually follows it. I don't know anyone who can tell me who hosted the games the last time. Who won medals? Nothing. Toronto's hosting it and not one of my many co-workers in Toronto (most of which are sports fans and watched every second of the Olympics, winter and summer) knows anything about it or even cares. I remember when it was announced that Toronto won the bid, and on the G&M , Toronto Star and TSN websites the majority of comments were from people who stated two things... "who cares?" and "what a waste of taxpayer money".
The only reason people in Hamilton care was due to the infrastructure it would bring.

Some of the stupidest things are being said on the forum lately.

Yes, but I try not to hold it against you.

[dennis1]

What about here?

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=cayuga,+on&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cayuga,+Haldimand-Norfolk+Regional+Municipality,+Ontario,+Canada&ei=CDB0TKeXCoSjnQfRtaC7CQ&ved=0CBQQ8gEwAA&ll=42.958684,-79.98476&spn=0.094096,0.222988&z=13


All the land for parking and Outside the city so Hamilton does not have to deal with Young anymore.

[realcity]

almost all the PanAm athletes (representing PanAm countries) will be competing at London 2012. 10,000 athletes will be staying in the Athletes Village. It's one of the top watched sporting events in the world.... repeating myself.

Because your little world doesn't follow amateur sports, doesn't mean it's not one of the top watched sporting events in the world.... repeating myself...... Toronto still tastes bitter grapes over losing the Olympics and having to settle for PanAm. Because the Olympics will be another 4 generations before they come to Canada again. Means anyone alive right now will never see Olympics in Toronto.

Go ahead say PanAm isn't important. But the same athletes representing the Western hemisphere will be competing in London 2012.


NASL is still pro soccer. And i guess you know that no one will watch it... with your crystal ball. That's why people buy the teams, because no one watches it? But when WH supporters say 'so what' to Ticats we'll go ahead and build a 15k stadium because it can be used for soccer and concerts, that doesn't apply know? The logic is so bizarre. WH supporters lost it all, even the 15k stadium, even the Ticats.

I still don't understand your reasoning. Multiple cities spent millions of dollars and manhours just to bid for the games. Then spend millions more preparing for the games.... and you still maintain no one cares? Building permanent sporting venues is a waste of money?

And i guess the only thing that is talked about in this city over the last several months is PanAm Games, so that also means no one cares.... ridiculous talking to people like you.

Go pick out certain comments that you like and ignore the others that you can't counter. That's how the WH supporters have been acting all along anyway. Ignoring facts and realities seems to be the MO.

[Anders Knudsen]

How about the PanAm pitch book? Start there and you'll see that Hamilton was to host track and field in a new stadium that would afterwards be home to the ticats as a legacy tenant.

This is not true. I've posted the bid book reference to Hamilton on here, it refers to a "legacy directly related to hosting the 2015 Pan American Games" and says the stadium will be a "significant multi-purpose community asset that will serve the broad needs of the region." No Ticats there and the legacy would be related to the events played there during the games.

I don't understand. Now that we wont get a stadium, WH supporters are saying that we were never getting a stadium in the first place? or that now that we didn't get the stadium in WH, WH supporters are now glad that we're not getting any stadium? But at the same time were so adamant about it that they now think we should move on to 'more important things'. Actually, the WH supporters are planning how to take the flack for losing the stadium and the Ticats, by shrugging their shoulders and saying 'who cares both were never important to the city in the first place'. If you really believed that, then why were you so militant about the issue?

I was a reluctant WH supporter when the other option was the East Mountain. I would have preferred no stadium to that. There's no inconsistency there, it's actually pretty simple when those are your only options. A vote for the harbour was a vote for a very expensive remediation and maybe keeping the Ticats. There was no third option. I still think we have a chance of them playing at the harbour.

Or is all this Bob Young's fault for wanting to make a profit? Heaven forbid that. Or somehow it's DiIanni fault? IW was slated to be torn down with a PanAm stadium what the heck is bob young supposed to do in 2012? He has to leave a city that doesn't have a stadium. WTF
It's Bob Young's fault because he wasn't present when the time was right to complain. He said publicly he would play wherever we put the stadium. It's also his fault because we're offering him a stadium equal to or better than his current one. Were it a case of us taking away parking or access he would have something to complain about. It's a bad business move by him because undoubtedly he would do better at WH than Ivor Wynne. Unless he was planning to fold the team anyway he has no credibility saying he won't play at the harbour.


Look, Fred hired a mediator to find a compromise location. He did EM. It wasn't Bob's choice, but it was a location he could live with. A compromise. Then the mayor decides he doesn't like the compromise location and goes back to his original. You didn't Bob go back to his original preference (confed park), no he met the city halfway true to the mediating process. Why did Fred bother to hire a mediator in the first place if his intention was never to compromise on a location?
How was it a compromise? Can you give me a single reason we would put public money into the EM? Its only advantage was it keeps the Ticats in town, it gives the city nothing back for its investment. Why didn't he get this Longwood site or Confederation park back on the table? If council was voting between WH and Confederation Park tomorrow I bet three councillors would vote against the park; Collins McCarthy and McHattie. I think Fenn did a lousy job of mediation and played a big role in getting us into this mess.

Let's get back to more important things. Like what I ask? Like perhaps "city building"? I thought a big component of the city building agenda was to have a new stadium. No, the city getting back to more important things means, fixing potholes in the summer and concerning ourselves with snowplowing issues in the winter. Really big city building visions like that.
Well looking through your list I see a lot more that we should be focusing our attention on. If council had solved some of those problems and lost the Ticats I wouldn't feel much regret. But as it stands I agree with you that it's a sorry indictment of our council.

[realcity]

Confed would've won, no doubt about it.., but thanks to Chad Collins he screwed this entire thing.... Confed Park would've put this whole thing behind us. and as a City we'd be celebrating a new face to our real waterfront, a new proud home to the Cats, totally accessible (minus the 0.002% that ride bicycles, but they could start 30 minutes sooner), a proud visible nice white first class CIBC Stadium at the QEW and the Skyway Bridge, hosting the Track and Field games (which are the most important events). Everyone would be happy and served well.

[bigguy1231]

Confed would've won, no doubt about it.., but thanks to Chad Collins he screwed this entire thing.... Confed Park would've put this whole thing behind us. and as a City we'd be celebrating a new face to our real waterfront, a new proud home to the Cats, totally accessible (minus the 0.002% that ride bicycles, but they could start 30 minutes sooner), a proud visible nice white first class CIBC Stadium at the QEW and the Skyway Bridge, hosting the Track and Field games (which are the most important events). Everyone would be happy and served well.

It took a majority of council to take it off the list. Chad being the councillor for that area had every right to object to using prime greenspace for a stadium.

[isaidso]

If this "ship has sailed" already, then it's over. Why are we still discussing a stadium?

Because the ship hasn't sailed, and Hamilton still needs a stadium. Hamilton isn't some small town like Guelph or Brandon where a 30,000 seat stadium would be some outlandish proposition. Hamilton will lose out if it doesn't have decent sports infrastructure. You don't need to be a sports fan to recognize that.

[bornagainbiking]

Too late. throw Confederation Park in the mix. Otherwise just tell Hostco and the world to find a place that is willing to work with them.
People don't care anymore. this is lame now and past funny.
:slob: :slob:

[SteelTown]

Mayor OKs last-ditch stadium meeting

Andrew Dreschel
Wed Aug 25 2010
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/251369--mayor-oks-last-ditch-stadium-meeting

At the request of a growing number of councillors, Mayor Fred Eisenberger has agreed to call a special meeting to take an 11th-hour run at the stadium debate.

The clerk's office is polling councillors to see if next Tuesday works for them.

That's also the deadline date for the city to submit its west harbour business plan to Pan Am organizers.

Eisenberger's move comes at the same time city manager Chris Murray added his voice to the clamour for an emergency meeting.

Some councillors are hoping to find a last-minute solution to the stalemate between the city and Tiger-Cats, who are refusing to invest or play at the harbour site.

Others are eager to grill Eisenberger over what was said in his controversial Aug. 6 phone call with Premier Dalton McGuinty's office.

But Murray says he needs to update council on what has happened since it confirmed its support for the west harbour at an Aug. 12 meeting.

"It's important that we get in front of the committee of the whole to explain what's in our business case and what it means, " says Murray.

[markbarbera]

I would say there is a glimmer of hope to pull this out of the fire, but if the meeting is taking place on the deadline date for a business plan, I fear Murray's just letting the council know that the business plan for a stadium required the participation of the Ticats, and without the Ticats, the business plan will be submitted without a stadium.

I don't see how there is time to propose an alternate stadium location complete with a business plan. The time on the clock has been run down, and I don't see Hostco giving yet another deadline extension.

I also see Howard Elliott has taken a shift in position in today's Spec editorial. I'm not sure why it took till today for him to realize we have to have the Ticats on board and to do so requires considering another site. I wish people came to that realization months ago and acted accordingly when there was time to save this disaster.

[dennis1]

Because the ship hasn't sailed, and Hamilton still needs a stadium. Hamilton isn't some small town like Guelph or Brandon where a 30,000 seat stadium would be some outlandish proposition. Hamilton will lose out if it doesn't have decent sports infrastructure. You don't need to be a sports fan to recognize that.

The TiCats will probably not get anything. Sad IMO. Not after this.

[SteelTown]

McMaster is very interested in land swapping with the old Trinity proposal and also the West Harbour land to help build a stadium at MIP.

[geoff's two cents]

For the love of Christmas. "Hamilton's real waterfront," as you put it, realcity, is in Stoney Creek, and even farther from downtown (13km) than the EM location.

I'm not 100% in favor of any of the locations mentioned here, but CP and EM are easily the worst in terms of convincing people under 50 that a Ticats game makes for a good night on the town.

It has occurred to me that the only reason certain high-profile businesspeople, Hamilton citizens and SSP forumers are even countenancing stadium locations that would give Hamilton the most suburban stadium location in the CFL (and which are conducive to removing the city's name from the team altogether), is that Hamilton is the only city in the entire league less than 100km from another large centre.

In other words, Hamilton is already on the cusp of being merely a suburb of Toronto. Some citizens and forumers here are ok with this; Bob Young and his team of "experts" want to profit from it. His major bargaining chip is a suburban/urban identity crisis that doesn't exist in any other CFL city. While I believe he's just doing what any businessperson would do, it's a shame to see otherwise intelligent Hamiltonians and SSP forumers hanging on his every word so uncritically.

[markbarbera]

McMaster is very interested in land swapping with the old Trinity proposal and also the West Harbour land to help build a stadium at MIP.

Perhaps also put the downtown medical centre at Tiffany instead of MIP? That would be a fair tradeoff.

[dennis1]

For the love of Christmas. "Hamilton's real waterfront," as you put it, realcity, is in Stoney Creek, and even farther from downtown (13km) than the EM location.

I'm not 100% in favor of any of the locations mentioned here, but CP and EM are easily the worst in terms of convincing people under 50 that a Ticats game makes for a good night on the town.

It has occurred to me that the only reason certain high-profile businesspeople, Hamilton citizens and SSP forumers are even countenancing stadium locations that would give Hamilton the most suburban stadium location in the CFL (and which are conducive to removing the city's name from the team altogether), is that Hamilton is the only city in the entire league less than 100km from another large centre.

In other words, Hamilton is already on the cusp of being merely a suburb of Toronto. Some citizens and forumers here are ok with this; Bob Young and his team of "experts" want to profit from it. His major bargaining chip is a suburban/urban identity crisis that doesn't exist in any other CFL city. While I believe he's just doing what any businessperson would do, it's a shame to see otherwise intelligent Hamiltonians and SSP forumers hanging on his every word so uncritically.
It is working out for Oshawa and Mississauga to be fair.

[Jon Dalton]

Sure, have an emergency meeting. Nobody is going to vote for a site that hasn't been studied at all that we need a business plan for tomorrow.

I don't mind the MIP site geographically speaking, but as someone who works in the technical trades I'd rather have a job there than a stadium.

[SteelTown]

CHCH was all over the place about the stadium this evening. I've heard:

City will propose a 5,000 seat stadium instead of 15,000 seat for soccer and keep the Ti Cats at IWS
Relocate Wild Waterworks to West Harbour for stadium at Confederation Park
Go with Longwood/Aberdeen stadium location
Kill any stadium idea and put the soccer event at McMaster

[go_leafs_go02]

CHCH was all over the place about the stadium this evening. I've heard:

City will propose a 5,000 seat stadium instead of 15,000 seat for soccer and keep the Ti Cats at IWS
Relocate Wild Waterworks to West Harbour for stadium at Confederation Park
Go with Longwood/Aberdeen stadium location
Kill any stadium idea and put the soccer event at McMaster


Now that I think could be a good idea, although relocating a water park would probably be fairly expensive. Right?

[SteelTown]

From Mountain News twitter....

"WH site is dead. new stadium will be built on Longwood-Aberdeen. bye bye WH, still get DT benefits with new site"

"mayor now understands what is at stake. meeting with Cats today to try and hammer out deal for new site"

[matt602]

Yah. Mountain News was totally right about all of their other rumors, too.

[geoff's two cents]

It is working out for Oshawa and Mississauga to be fair.

What's working out for Oshawa and Mississauga? Neither one of these is a CFL city.

[bornagainbiking]

Best idea ever. and Equal parking.
Relocate Wild Waterworks to West Harbour for stadium at Confederation Park
Families can stay downtown and use the trolley and shuttle service and harbour tours, To claim the area as waterpark will be easier.
Go West harbour Waterworks.
Just like Canada's wonderland and include a amphitheatre or band shell. :tup: :tup: :tup: :tup: :tup: :worship: :worship: :worship: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
Christ move the mini putt and the go carts, just set up a close time by 8 p.m.

[dennis1]

What's working out for Oshawa and Mississauga? Neither one of these is a CFL city.

Oh I mean being a suburb of Toronto not the CFL.

[dennis1]

I still support Cayuga as a sprawl location.

[paleale2]

......well...just to add to the fodder.......I heard today that the Ticats have begun quietly negotiating with the city ....for none other than WH.....WHIW

[bigguy1231]

......well...just to add to the fodder.......I heard today that the Ticats have begun quietly negotiating with the city ....for none other than WH.....WHIW

Maybe they are finally realizing that if it's not the WH they will get nothing. There are not enough votes on council to overturn the WH decision.

[bigguy1231]

From Mountain News twitter....

"WH site is dead. new stadium will be built on Longwood-Aberdeen. bye bye WH, still get DT benefits with new site"

"mayor now understands what is at stake. meeting with Cats today to try and hammer out deal for new site"

So I guess the Ticats have given up on the 7000 space parking lot. The need for access is out the window as well I guess. That site has access about as bad as the EM.

[fenwick16]

......well...just to add to the fodder.......I heard today that the Ticats have begun quietly negotiating with the city ....for none other than WH.....WHIW


I hope that this is true. In my opinion, this would be the most responsible position for the Hamilton Ti-Cats owner. I don't think that people should be so hard on the Hamilton Mayor. As an outsider (I am currently a Miltonian), I think that he is just doing what is best for Hamilton.

[markhornich]

i thought i read something about Mac being interested in swapping some innovation lands for some tiffany lands? i would prefer to see something more lively and constantly inhabited at the barton/tiffany site.. like a campus along with other development.

I don't think that innovation park would be a bad place for the stadium. A plus is that it could also draw outside attention to innovation park; that exposure could fill it up with tenants quickly. I was a definite WH supporter over east mountain, but this has peaked my interest.

[SteelTown]

http://media.mmgdailies.topscms.com/images/12/59/395462824e8caa44e07fa47c4766.jpeg
Dave Gruggen, Special to the Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/251476--toxic-sites-owner-sues-city-moe

[mattgrande]

http://media.mmgdailies.topscms.com/images/12/59/395462824e8caa44e07fa47c4766.jpeg
Dave Gruggen, Special to the Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/251476--toxic-sites-owner-sues-city-moe

"Maden appears to be representing himself and appears to have prepared the statement of claim on his own. The three-page claim contains a number of spelling mistakes."

Amazing.

[highwater]

By KEVIN CONNOR, Toronto Sun

http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2010/08/25/15141861.html

Last Updated: August 25, 2010 8:46pm

The Hamilton Tiger-Cats may be prowling for a new home and some in Oshawa want to have an iron grid built for them.

On Friday, Oshawa City Council will hold a special meeting to see if they can woo the club to town.

“The purpose of the meeting is to get a resolution of the city government in order to give its staff direction to proceed with formal negotiations to explore the issues of a Toronto 2015 Pan American Games soccer stadium to be built in Oshawa as well as a CFL team as the main tenant,” said Councillor Robert Lutczyk, who called for the meeting.

The Tiger-Cats have been in a brawl over where a new stadium to host the 2015 Pan American Games should be built — a facility that would be the future home of the team.

The Ticats have threatened to move to another city if they don’t get their way.

“My major regret is the harsh reality that after next year, there will be no home for the Hamilton Tiger-Cats in the city where we shared so much success and positive experiences together,” Ticat owner Bob Young recently wrote in a letter to Hamilton City Council.

Lutczyk says the Ticats would have a marketplace of 1 million people in an area bounded by Scarborough, Kingston and Peterborough.

He says the site of the stadium could be near Hwy. 401 and the Go and Via train stops.

Lutczyk said council needs a formal position on the matter before it can begin negotiations with Pan Am officials and the Ticats.

“After the Pan AM Games, the Ticats could take over the ownership and have football games and concerts. It is exciting and the city could be the facilitator. They have to have the best site and they don’t have that in Hamilton,” Lutczyk said.

“It would bring an elevated status to Oshawa. The image Oshawa has is not the Oshawa today. It is an urban myth that we are always fighting.

This is an election year and some councillors just want to make headline, said Oshawa Mayor John Gray.

“The team is trying to shakedown Hamilton — threatening to move the team — to get the location that it wants. It is a dangerous move to try and poach teams from other cities. If we did, what type of shakedown would they give us in 10 years,” Gray said.

“Even if the Pan Am people had some money for the stadium, the operating costs would be a real challenge.”

A Ticat spokesman, said no one from the club was available for comment.

kevin.connor@sunmedia.ca

[highwater]

http://www.newsdurhamregion.com/news/article/160612

Aug 26, 2010 - 10:12 AM
Comments (0)

OSHAWA -- A planned special Oshawa council meeting to talk about bringing the Hamilton Tiger Cats football franchise to the City is off.

A notice was issued by Oshawa's Clerk's department just before 10 a.m., indicating the meeting, which had been set for Friday morning, has been cancelled.

The meeting was to discuss bringing the team to Oshawa, where it would find its home in a new 25,000 seat stadium.

Stay with www.durhamregion.com for more details as they become available.

[markbarbera]

Yesterday, the Spec made a big shift in their opinion on the stadium debate with their editorial:

New stadium needs Ticats

THE HAMILTON SPECTATOR
(Aug 25, 2010)
The Hamilton Tiger-Cats will not play at the west harbour. Whatever else can be said of the conundrum over Hamilton's new stadium aspirations, that's one hard truth that will not change. It's time to deal with it.

We are not fans of the way the Ticats have handled this whole stadium debacle. Bob Young and his team were wrong to not disclose their militant opposition to the west harbour site right off the bat.

By the same token, Mayor Fred Eisenberger was wrong not to tell city council he had discussions with provincial officials during which they suggested there might be incentives for Hamilton if a different stadium site was chosen, as reported by Spec columnist Andrew Dreschel Saturday. Mistakes and misjudgments have been made by all parties wrapped up so tightly in the stadium debate.

But what now? The clock is ticking, and $60 million in federally and provincially controlled tax dollars are on the line. The question is now not whether west harbour is best, it's whether west harbour is viable without an anchor tenant, of which there is just one at play.

If Pan Am organizers rule against a stadium without an anchor tenant, they'll do more than confirm what most already suspect -- that these games are far more Toronto-centric than is being admitted. They'll also give the province and feds ample ammunition to yank their funding, leaving Hamilton to stand alone with its $45-million contribution.

That, and the lack of an anchor tenant, rules out a CFL-sized stadium. And we don't need a 15,000-seat stadium. The west harbour stadium, without a sustainable anchor tenant, is not viable.

This is a difficult position for us to take, given we've argued hard and repeatedly that the west harbour location offers the most overall benefit to Hamilton, and its drawbacks have been exaggerated. But there are worse things than changing a passionately held position, and we may be staring at a worse outcome -- loss of federal/provincial money, loss of Pan Am Games events and loss of the Ticats, with all that represents.

...

http://www.thespec.com/opinion/article/251281--new-stadium-needs-ticats

[highwater]

Thu Aug 26 2010

http://www.thespec.com/news/article/251747--oshawa-council-punts-special-cfl-meeting


OSHAWA THIS WEEK
OSHAWA — Councillor Robert Lutczyk has called an “audible” after finding his attempt to hold a special council meeting to look at bringing Hamilton's Canadian Football League team here has been thwarted.

The Oshawa councillor had the six signatures necessary under the city's procedural bylaw to hold a special meeting. But one of the signatories — Tito-Dante Marimpietri — withdrew his support. Because the majority of council must agree to a special meeting, unless it is called by the mayor, the event, set for Friday morning, was cancelled.

Others signing the petition in support of the special meeting were councillors Louise Parkes, John Henry, Maryanne Sholdra and John Neal.

But Lutczyk said he remains committed to the idea, and will raise it at an upcoming committee meeting.

The Tiger-Cats have said they'll leave Hamilton over a dispute over where to build a new stadium. And if they're leaving Hamilton, "I say, come to Oshawa," Lutczyk said.

"I'm just saying, if you're going to look elsewhere, don't look past Oshawa."

The idea isn't new to him, Lutczyk said, noting he's looked into potential expansion opportunities in years past.

He envisions a 25,000-seat stadium, financed by the football franchise, on 90 acres currently being used for agricultural purposes directly north of Oshawa's VIA rail station.

"I'm not saying Oshawa's going to be bankrolling this thing," Lutczyk said. "Absolutely not ... we wouldn't be financiers; we would be facilitators."

It's all about location, the councillor contends: the site is highly visible and easily accessible, and Oshawa sits in a triangle stretching to Peterborough in the north and Kingston in the east that is home to about one million people.

Marimpietri said in an e-mail he originally agreed to holding the meeting to look at the idea, but "promptly withdrew my support in writing almost immediately after doing some intensive fact-finding research of my own" about the idea.

The councillor contends he soon decided bringing the football franchise to Oshawa was neither affordable nor viable. The proximity of a Toronto football team that already has a stronghold on Oshawa fan support also contributed to his concern.

"It is not something the Argos would ever allow to happen," especially given "the greater Oshawa area (is) one of their largest season ticket fan base markets," he said in the e-mail.

Beyond that, going after the Ticats now could be construed as poaching, Marimpietri said.

"I wouldn't want anyone to try to take our Oshawa Generals," he said. "I have friends, family and respected colleagues in Hamilton, and I in turn would not want to take their team away from them."

Even though council won't tackle the issue in a special meeting, Lutczyk said it's not dead. He'll move it as a motion at Monday's Oshawa strategic initiatives committee, of which he is vice-chairman, and Marimpietri is chairman.

Try it, said Marimpietri.

"If he tries to bring this up at (strategic initiatives), as chair of the committee I will rule his ass out of order on the basis of facts found," he e-mailed. "Enough is enough."

Oshawa This Week

[markbarbera]

Editorial running in this week's Hamilton community newspapers:

Hamilton’s field of doom
Hamilton Community News Editorial

Aug 26, 2010


In just a few short days, the City of Hamilton will submit a proposal to the Pan Am Games organizing committee –Hostco –detailing a plan to move ahead with a 15,000 seat stadium at the West Harbour.

As we’ve witnessed in the past few months, anything can happen between now and then, but as it stands, the city is moving ahead with a plan that doesn’t involve a legacy tenant. This fact alone could shutter any possibility that Hostco will accept the West Harbour location.

In their denunciation of the east Mountain site and Hamilton Tiger-Cats owner Bob Young, many West Harbour advocates clamoured about ensuring responsible use of tax dollars and Future Fund money.

How can anyone believe building a 15,000 seat stadium for a one-time, 10-day event is a responsible use of the city’s tax resources? Building a field of doom as a trophy to victorious idealism is a very reckless path. Taxpayers should be outraged at the gamble being played out with the West Harbour decision.

...

http://www.stoneycreeknews.com/opinions/article/217857

Be it the Spec or the community papers, the newspapers in Hamilton are now pretty much unanimous in their opinion that continuing with the WH stadium plans as they stand now is foolhardy.

[drpgq]

Thu Aug 26 2010

"If he tries to bring this up at (strategic initiatives), as chair of the committee I will rule his ass out of order on the basis of facts found," he e-mailed. "Enough is enough."

Oshawa This Week

Ok that's funny. Oshawa, if we pay nothing, we'll take the team.

[bigguy1231]

Editorial running in this week's Hamilton community newspapers:



Be it the Spec or the community papers, the newspapers in Hamilton are now pretty much unanimous in their opinion that continuing with the WH stadium plans as they stand now is foolhardy.

I'll give the community papers credit as far as being consistant. But they are not in the business of selling papers.

The Speculator on the other hand is about selling papers. They were for it before the council vote because that created controversy and now they are against it because again it creates controversy. They have created and perpetuated the controversy by publishing unfounded rumours and speculation. For a time the Spec seemed to be improving but now they are up to the same old tricks that caused it's decline during the 80's and 90's.

[markbarbera]

In today's Spec:


Scaled-back facility on agenda for council meeting
DOWNSIZED: Hamilton and Burlington's Pan Am dreams are shrinking.
Games organizers have pulled plans for a Burlington soccer site and without a legacy tenant, the chances of a west harbour stadium here are slim.

THE HAMILTON SPECTATOR
(Aug 27, 2010)

The west harbour stadium is suddenly on life support and may not survive Tuesday's emergency council meeting.

Pan Am organizers have quietly told city officials that based on the city's business plan for the west harbour, they will only fund a drastically reduced 5,000- to 7,000-seat stadium.

According to city hall sources, that message was delivered to Mayor Fred Eisenberger and senior bureaucrats at a private meeting with HostCo last week.

Eisenberger could not be reached yesterday.

City manager Chris Murray confirms private meetings were held but declined to comment until he officially informs council of the content.

But several city councillors say Murray has already told them that without the Tiger-Cats or another major tenant, HostCo will not commit federal and provincial dollars to fund the originally proposed 15,000-seat stadium.

Councillor Terry Whitehead says the message is that in the absence of a legacy tenant for the city, a permanent 5,000-to-7,000 seater is big enough to meet the venue needs of 2015 Pan Am Games.

"It's a gentle way of saying that your business case isn't there in the context of what you're trying to achieve," Whitehead said.

Staff has repeatedly cautioned that a large stadium without the Ticats is not financially viable. The option of a scaled-back facility will be the guts of staff's update at Tuesday's special meeting.

Based on his discussions with other councillors, Whitehead believes a cut-down stadium in the west harbour simply won't fly.

...

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/251787--scaled-back-facility-on-agenda-for-council-meeting

Council needs to vote on a motion that WH has failed and move to plan B site, and designate the land at Aberdeen and Longwood as the plan B site. It's the only way to salvage this disaster now.

[thistleclub]

Guessing that means Burlington's SOL (the NEC chewed their facility down to 5,000 seats, so HostCo was possibly itching to jump) and the funds for a 10,000-seat stadium are freed up.

My gut feeling is that we'll miss the plastic ring as well as the brass one.

[mattgrande]

In today's Spec:



Council needs to vote on a motion that WH has failed and move to plan B site, and designate the land at Aberdeen and Longwood as the plan B site. It's the only way to salvage this disaster now.

It's hard to tell from that article, because everything in there is third-hand information: Is HostCo refusing to back the West Harbour, or are they refusing to back any stadium in Hamilton? The article implies West Harbour, but who knows if that's really the case?

Has Bob Young/Scott Mitchell said anything (for or against) Longwood & Aberdeen?

[markbarbera]

Has Bob Young/Scott Mitchell said anything (for or against) Longwood & Aberdeen?

The site is one of ten sites they had suggested during the 'facilitation' process.

CHML is reporting that there have been some discussions between the Ticats and city staff yesterday. Seeing as Bob Young said discussions would not take place as long as the city's position on the WH was maintained, I think we can connect the dots here.

[highwater]

Seeing as Bob Young said discussions would not take place as long as the city's position on the WH was maintained, I think we can connect the dots here.

Yeah. Cause everything BY says is true.

It's also possible that with Hostco now saying that they will only fund a 5,000 seat stadium, BY realizes that if he doesn't play ball, there will be no new stadium at all, and with the hilarious smackdown from Oshawa, his threat to move the team has lost alot of its power. Surely even BY realizes that a brand new stadium at WH would be better than no new stadium at all.

I personally don't see the advantage of the Longwood/Aberdeen site over the WH from the ticats' perspective. There's not enough room for their massive parking lot, and no room for Bob's Big Box World, which were their non-negotiables in the EM vs. WH debate. Sure it's closer to the highway, but is that enough to compensate for having less road capacity and fewer nearby parking opportunities than WH? I don't have a citation, but I seem to recall Mitchell being less than enthusiastic about this site.

And never mind that it's our most valuable employment lands that we're talking about here. If the lost revenue from the EM site was an issue for council, how can they possibly justify the use of such high value employment lands for a stadium and parking?

Graham Crawford takes a fascinating look at the numbers in an article on RTH:

http://www.raisethehammer.org/article/1153/stop_and_think_before_capitulating_on_stadium


On another note, I am honestly flummoxed by the fact that Hostco is saying that the Burlington stadium was pulled because it wasn't close enough to a GO station, when the province and feds were trying to shove an EM stadium down our throats.

[mattgrande]

Honestly, I just don't give a shit anymore. HostCo has been fucking around far too much for my liking.

- Pulled Athletics from Hamilton
- Pulled Rugby from Markham
- Pulled Soccer from Burlington
- Moved the Tennis site twice
- Downgrading the Hamilton stadium a few days before the deadline.

And there's probably plenty more. I don't know if it's Ian Troop, or what, but they aren't exactly showing confidence.

[highwater]

So true, Matt. The self-loathing Hamiltonians here love to place all the blame exclusively on our mayor and council, but there's been plenty of bumbling going on: Hostco, the feds and province talking out of both sides of their mouths, Burlington, the Ticats...York and Mac are the only agencies that have nothing to be embarrassed about at the moment from what I can see, but there's still time.

[markbarbera]

The Oshawa flip-flop was an interesting side show, but I don't think anyone in the Ticat organization ever mentioned this as a possible moving spot. Young knows the regional draw for the Argos is principally from the Oshawa area and he isn't going to move in on Braley's turf. If the Oshawa mayor hadn't slapped that down, Young would have slapped it down himself. He has plenty other options available for consideration.

The loss of employment lands is not a show stopper here. First off we are talking a much smaller tract of employment lands than up on EM, where over 100 acres of employment land were being considered for the stadium, parking and new retail development. There is the former Trinity property available for later phases of IP development.

There isn't the need for a "Big Box World" because there is not the need to compensate for new infrastructure costs at this site. The required infrastructure is already in place.

As far a parking goes, the site looks to be at least 30 acres in size. If a raised pier construction design is employed, 4000-4500 parking spots could be located below grade, another 1500 or so at grade.

[highwater]

The Oshawa flip-flop was an interesting side show, but I don't think anyone in the Ticat organization ever mentioned this as a possible moving spot. Young knows the regional draw for the Argos is principally from the Oshawa area and he isn't going to move in on Braley's turf. If the Oshawa mayor hadn't slapped that down, Young would have slapped it down himself. He has plenty other options available for consideration.

What the Oshawa smackdown showed, is that without a massive injection of public money, stadium construction is not a worthwhile investment for any municipality. The only reason it was being floated in Oshawa is because one councillor was deluded enough to think that Oshawa wouldn't have to put up any money. This would be true regardless of the region.

The loss of employment lands is not a show stopper here. First off we are talking a much smaller tract of employment lands than up on EM, where over 100 acres of employment land were being considered for the stadium, parking and new retail development. There is the former Trinity property available for later phases of IP development.

The lands in question are also slated for later phases of IP development, and the EM lands would have been mixed use commercial/residential. The IP lands are part of the Innovation District and slated for much higher quality employment than the EM lands would have been, so it's a much greater loss.

There isn't the need for a "Big Box World" because there is not the need to compensate for new infrastructure costs at this site. The required infrastructure is already in place.

Big Box World wasn't required to pay for the infrastructure (you and I would have been doing that), it was required by Bob to generate revenue since his core business is a loss leader, and to provide the all-important 'driveway to driveway' experience. Bob's core business is still a loss leader, so how is he going to break even on the Longwood site? At least at WH the spin-off benefits would have made it worth the city's while to help him out, but since the city doesn't have as much to gain from the Longwood site, the incentive isn't there.

As far a parking goes, the site looks to be at least 30 acres in size. If a raised pier construction design is employed, 4000-4500 parking spots could be located below grade, another 1500 or so at grade.

Still doesn't solve the access problem, but I guess that's nothing that gobs more public money can't solve.

[markbarbera]

The lands in question are also slated for later phases of IP development, and the EM lands would have been mixed use commercial/residential. The IP lands are part of the Innovation District and slated for much higher quality employment than the EM lands would have been, so it's a much greater loss.

So there is an opportunity to attract higher quality employment to the EM lands - plan a satellite IP2 park on the EM!


Big Box World wasn't required to pay for the infrastructure (you and I would have been doing that), it was required by Bob to generate revenue since his core business is a loss leader, and to provide the all-important 'driveway to driveway' experience. Bob's core business is still a loss leader, so how is he going to break even on the Longwood site? At least at WH the spin-off benefits would have made it worth the city's while to help him out, but since the city doesn't have as much to gain from the Longwood site, the incentive isn't there.

The core business is not a loss leader when placed in a properly located facility with adequate capacity, so your premise is based on a false assumption. EM was not Bob Young's preferred choice, and was not one of ten alternate sites he thinks would work. Aberdeen and Longwood is a site he thinks would work.

Still doesn't solve the access problem, but I guess that's nothing that gobs more public money can't solve.

There's an access issue for a site immediately adjacent to the 403, right at the Aberdeen exit? Within 400m of a future LRT station?

[Jon Dalton]

So there is an opportunity to attract higher quality employment to the EM lands - plan a satellite IP2 park on the EM!


Please tell me that was a joke.

[highwater]

So there is an opportunity to attract higher quality employment to the EM lands - plan a satellite IP2 park on the EM!

Markbarbera, that is over the top, even for you.




The core business is not a loss leader when placed in a properly located facility with adequate capacity, so your premise is based on a false assumption.

An assumption based on the ticats' insistence that they need a 7,000 car proprietary parking lot and ownership of a power centre in order to be 'sustainable'.

Aberdeen and Longwood is a site he thinks would work.

Do you know this for a fact? The only mutterings I've heard coming out of the ticats' camp regarding this site have been decidedly lukewarm.



There's an access issue for a site immediately adjacent to the 403, right at the Aberdeen exit? Within 400m of a future LRT station?

And how many lanes of traffic are there leading to that exit? What good is being adjacent to a highway when it takes an hour to exit the parking lot?

[Jon Dalton]

Honestly, I just don't give a shit anymore. HostCo has been fucking around far too much for my liking.

I stopped giving a shit the night of Aug. 10 when the East Mountain proposal effectively died. That meant council refused to have sprawl shoved down its throat - whether the outcome is the West Harbour, some *reasonable* alternative, or nothing.

The best outcome I can see at this point is holding soccer at Mac and using that as leverage to build the LRT there.

[markbarbera]

Markbarbera, that is over the top, even for you.

Imagining a second IP-style high level employment zone for the city is over the top? Really? Are you saying once the IP employment land is developed that's it for that style of employment lands in Hamilton? The former Steelcare site is at least ten years off from IP's development plan. If it develops successfully, I don't think it's over the top to seed a second employment zone in Hamilton based on the same model. Now look who's being self-loathing.

An assumption based on the ticats' insistence that they need a 7,000 car proprietary parking lot and ownership of a power centre in order for the EM site to be 'sustainable'. Fixed it for you.

Do you know this for a fact? The only mutterings I've heard coming out of the ticats' camp regarding this site have been decidedly lukewarm.
You are involved in discussions with the Ticat camp? I didn't know you and Bob Young were on such good speaking terms. Personally, I am not, but from what has been reported in the news, discussions began between city staff and ticats staff around the same time that the Aberdeen/Longwood proposal was being floated. Call me a pollyanna, but to me this is promising news.

And how many lanes of traffic are there leading to that exit? What good is being adjacent to a highway when it takes an hour to exit the parking lot? There is highway access for those with inter-city trips via the 403, local road access for the intra-city car trips via Aberdeen, Longwood/Main, and Aberdeen/Frid (when southern extension is completed), and there is LRT access via the Main and Longwood station. There is even potential to have a GO Train station located at Aberdeen at the future Frid extension. And there are bike lanes planned for Longwood, currently existing on Dundurn, and a bike route along the CP rail trail westward from the site. Multi-modal access.

[bluevue]

dare I say that with this as an option...but if we were to really stretch it...put a parking station (garage/lot)at the top of the escarpment on/near old chedoke hospital lands and put a rail car to go up and down the the escarpment for those people...you know all the kind of cool things people want brought back to the area anyway...you know the trolleys that once existed. How many cities could say they have this as a mode of transportation to a stadium. Out there, but would be awesome...and TSN would eat it up in their pull back shots of the area.

[highwater]

Imagining a second IP-style high level employment zone for the city is over the top? Really?

On the EM, yes. "Over the top" is putting it politely.

Fixed it for you.

Bollocks. Sole ownership of parking and big box spin off is the very essence of the 'driveway to driveway' experience. This is why WH was a no go for them, and it's the reason why they refuse to reveal their studies, and the identities of their NFL 'driveway to driveway' experts. They know that they will lose public support when we see the cynicism of the naked cash grab behind the 'driveway to driveway' business model.

There is highway access for those with inter-city trips via the 403, local road access for the intra-city car trips via Aberdeen, Longwood/Main, and Aberdeen/Frid (when southern extension is completed), and there is LRT access via the Main and Longwood station. There is even potential to have a GO Train station located at Aberdeen at the future Frid extension. And there are bike lanes planned for Longwood, currently existing on Dundurn, and a bike route along the CP rail trail westward from the site. Multi-modal access.

The highway access for WH may be a bit farther, but there is far more lane capacity leading to it, and for intra-city trips. There isn't just 'potential' for GO, it's planned, and on the existing line, as well as plenty of the multi-modal access you mention. Apart from being slightly farther from the highway, WH has everything you mention and more, and yet you continue to spin the supposed superiority of every other possible site but WH. It's a bizarre fixation, really. Maybe you're buddies with Herman Turkstra, or maybe you just hate this forum and so have made it your business to crush any little green shoots of hope that manage to work their way up through the asphalt. Suit yourself.

[SteelTown]

Dunno but I think I heard CHCH saying that the City and the Ti Cats organization are meeting and that the Ti Cats will make an announcement before Tuesday.

[markbarbera]

... yet you continue to spin the supposed superiority of every other possible site but WH. It's a bizarre fixation, really.

Almost as bizarre as your fixation on WH and your continuous spin to shoot down any proposed alternative to WH.

Bottom line: A Pan Am stadium in Hamilton depends on a financially viable business case with a clearly defined legacy use for the facility. The business case for a stadium anywhere in Hamilton will not be financially viable for the city unless the Ticats (or some other professional sport league) are tenants at the stadium. Not my words, nor Bob Young's, nor Herman Turkstra's, nor anyone at Hostco, these are the words of the city manager. If the city remains inflexible on the WH site, the stadium and all the associated funding from senior governments is lost.

If we find a suitable alternate location, we can get a stadium and the associated funding from the feds and the province. And WH would be better off if we reverted back to the original plans for the neighbourhood, IMHO.

[bigguy1231]

Dunno but I think I heard CHCH saying that the City and the Ti Cats organization are meeting and that the Ti Cats will make an announcement before Tuesday.

They have probably finally come to the realization that they better get onboard or they are going to really screw things up for themselves. From speaking to a couple of the councillors that I know, as far as they are concerned they will vote for no stadium at all before being rushed into something they don't want and they don't want the Aberdeen site.

[markbarbera]

Imagining a second IP-style high level employment zone for the city is over the top? Really? Are you saying once the IP employment land is developed that's it for that style of employment lands in Hamilton? The former Steelcare site is at least ten years off from IP's development plan. If it develops successfully, I don't think it's over the top to seed a second employment zone in Hamilton based on the same model. Now look who's being self-loathing.

On the EM, yes. "Over the top" is putting it politely.


This is really a side discussion better off elsewhere in this forum, but I'd really like to hear why you think it's over the top to imagine seeding another IP-style employment area at the Red Hill Business Park once Innovation Park is fully occupied.

[bigguy1231]

Almost as bizarre as your fixation on WH and your continuous spin to shoot down any proposed alternative to WH.

Bottom line: A Pan Am stadium in Hamilton depends on a financially viable business case with a clearly defined legacy use for the facility. The business case for a stadium anywhere in Hamilton will not be financially viable for the city unless the Ticats (or some other professional sport league) are tenants at the stadium. Not my words, nor Bob Young's, nor Herman Turkstra's, nor anyone at Hostco, these are the words of the city manager. If the city remains inflexible on the WH site, the stadium and all the associated funding from senior governments is lost.

If we find a suitable alternate location, we can get a stadium and the associated funding from the feds and the province. And WH would be better off if we reverted back to the original plans for the neighbourhood, IMHO.

My God look who's talking, the spinmaster himself. Lately I swear you are working for Bob Young.

I don't see any special legacy uses for the facilities in Toronto and yet they are building them there. Why should we or any other city be held to a different standard.

[markbarbera]

My God look who's talking, the spinmaster himself. Lately I swear you are working for Bob Young.

I don't see any special legacy uses for the facilities in Toronto and yet they are building them there. Why should we or any other city be held to a different standard.

The athletics department at York University would beg to differ. When done, York university will own a track facility with permanent seating for 5,000.

We are being held to the same standard that recently saw Burlington stripped of its new soccer stadium. Legacy use is essential.

[bigguy1231]

The athletics department at York University would beg to differ. When done, York university will own a track facility with permanent seating for 5,000.

We are being held to the same standard that recently saw Burlington stripped of its new soccer stadium. Legacy use is essential.

So York gets a new stadium for their amateur football team, but the city of Hamilton has to have a pro football team to get a stadium here.

Burlington lost it's stadium because it's not on a GO line. It had nothing to do with legacy uses. By that line of reasoning we will only get a stadium in this city if it's on a Go line. That would rule out any other location in this city but the West Harbour. But then again Hostco will change the rules again to suit their purposes.

This whole process has been loaded against the city of Hamilton and any other community outside of Toronto. This whole idea of a regional games was a farce. It's all about Toronto. The rich getting richer. Screw the rest of the province.

[mattgrande]

This whole process has been loaded against the city of Hamilton and any other community outside of Toronto. This whole idea of a regional games was a farce. It's all about Toronto. The rich getting richer. Screw the rest of the province.

It's beginning to look like that's the case. My biggest fear now is that the Ti-Cats and the City will agree to a location (whatever that may be), and HostCo will pull the plug anyway.

[markbarbera]

So York gets a new stadium for their amateur football team, but the city of Hamilton has to have a pro football team to get a stadium here.

Burlington lost it's stadium because it's not on a GO line. It had nothing to do with legacy uses. By that line of reasoning we will only get a stadium in this city if it's on a Go line. That would rule out any other location in this city but the West Harbour. But then again Hostco will change the rules again to suit their purposes.

This whole process has been loaded against the city of Hamilton and any other community outside of Toronto. This whole idea of a regional games was a farce. It's all about Toronto. The rich getting richer. Screw the rest of the province.

The new York University stadium will be a track and field stadium, not a football stadium. It will remain for track after the games to satisfy Athletics Canada's concerns about a permanent track and field legacy from hosting the games.

Of course this is all about Toronto. That's why it's called the Toronto 2015 Pan Am Games. Having said that, there are still many events scheduled to take place across Southern Ontario in Welland, St. Catharines, Hamilton, Caledon, Ajax, Pickering and Oshawa. And, as far as infrastructure spending goes, there is still a fair portion of new facilities being constructed beyond Toronto's city limits.

[NorthEndRules]

I think that Mr Eisenberger has shown conviction and true leadership in all of this. Clearly, he has a vision of what to do with the Future fund money the city was going to use for the stadium. This money was desiganted to make Hamilton a better place to live in: Clean contaminated lands, showcase a better image of Hamilton to the country and the world, invigorate the urban economy, and make the urban part of Hamilton a destination. Real cities are designed to attract people from the periphery inward.
To the other councillors, you should grow a spine and stick to your principles. Don't let the private interests scare you into selling out the city.
To the PanAm organizers, nice job in dividing this community. If it's true your bid book had a bayfront stadium proposal and yet you've been sabotaging this with comments like today's, you have no principles.
Mr Young, it's time you sold the team. I don't think you ever bought the team to move it out of Hamilton. Did you?

[realcity]

So..... ? where are we?

Still betting my 5% chance that it will be built at WH? When did I say that? Like 13 months ago?

White Star is nothing serious. ... it's rather coincidence that we've never heard anything from them until "PUBLIC MONEY" $ was involved. Sounds like all the other downtown developments.

[realcity]

WH was never a go. I think we should look into who owns the land around the WH site.

[bigguy1231]

The new York University stadium will be a track and field stadium, not a football stadium. It will remain for track after the games to satisfy Athletics Canada's concerns about a permanent track and field legacy from hosting the games.

Of course this is all about Toronto. That's why it's called the Toronto 2015 Pan Am Games. Having said that, there are still many events scheduled to take place across Southern Ontario in Welland, St. Catharines, Hamilton, Caledon, Ajax, Pickering and Oshawa. And, as far as infrastructure spending goes, there is still a fair portion of new facilities being constructed beyond Toronto's city limits.

So you don't think they are going to use the infield for football. I distinctly heard the person they were interviewing on TV from York say that it will be used for their football team. Once it's built and after the games York will decide what it will be used for not Athletics Canada.

[realcity]

^ aaaa oookay... even more the reason to build a larger 25k stadium at York. Forget it maan. Hamilton stubbornly insisted on WH and lost.... bc WH sucks for a CFL stadium. That's the end of the story. Give it Up man. If I was wrong then the Ticats would be building there right now as I write this.

[realcity]

Do you own the Ticats? Are you building a new stadium?

Next response typical of the WH maniac, is "it's our money". Please it's our money that is building the new Central Library, It;s our money that is building the new Farmers Market, It is our money that is rebuilding the Lister Block, It is our money that built a replica of the City Hall." All this stuff is cool right? Until you want to pull the 'tax card'. next time you need a MRI let me know if I want to pay for that>