Tim Hortons Field | 40m | ? | Complete

[markbarbera]

The last estimate for the cost of the Perimeter road was somewhere around $200 million if I remember correctly. Thats why the city shelved that plan. It won't happen anytime soon, unless the province decides to pay for it.

Does it matter? The city has consistently refused to consider road improvements for the area.

Heck, if you are going to tack on a $200 million road to the overall stadium development price tag, all of a sudden EM becomes the significantly cheaper alternative.

My gawd, your comprehension skills are seriously lacking.

All I was doing was passing on information. I wasn't supporting or opposing it.

Nor did I allude to you either supporting or opposing it - as shown by quoting the sequence of this discussion, I was building on the ramifications of introducing a perimiter road to the mix.

I am fine with us disagreeing about many things discussed in this thread, but lets keep it at a level of civility. I don't appreciate a personal attack like this from you, and would like you very much to refrain from attacking in this manner in the future.

[SteelTown]

Toronto mayor urges Ticats to rethink stand

Published On Fri Aug 13 2010
Vanessa Lu
Staff Reporter
http://www.thestar.com/sports/article/847696--toronto-mayor-urges-ticats-to-rethink-stand

Toronto Mayor David Miller says the Hamilton Tiger-Cats should rethink its decision to walk away from the downtown site for the Pan Am stadium.

“The idea of having stadiums at the intersections of expressways is an idea from the 1970s. It’s totally out of date,” Miller told the Star on Friday. “I hope the Ticats come back to the table.”

Owner Bob Young threw the Ticats’ future into doubt this week when he announced the team would not move to the city’s preferred choice on the west harbour, considered key to Hamilton’s revitalization efforts.

Hamilton city council voted 10-6 for the downtown site, which Mayor Fred Eisenberger had pushed hard, over a spot on the East Mountain, preferred by Young and the team.

The Tiger-Cats play in 80-year-old Ivor Wynne, which needs to be replaced, but Young has threatened to move the CFL franchise to another city.

“The American owner of the Ticats has done wonderful things,” Miller said. “But this is an American idea of where you put a stadium — out in the suburbs at the intersection of highways. It’s not a Canadian idea.”

Miller pointed to the success of BMO Field where the Toronto FC soccer club plays its home games, just a stone’s throw from the waterfront.

“You walk in the Liberty district before and after a TFC game and it’s booming. It’s helped rejuvenate Parkdale,” the mayor said. “That’s what a stadium can do if you put it in the right place.”

Miller said he hopes provincial and Pan Am officials will back the city of Hamilton, which does not know if the stadium can go ahead if there is no permanent tenant after the 2015 Games.

“They have made the right decision,” Miller said, adding the city deserves to host track and field, even though Pan Am officials announced last month amid the stadium wrangling that those events would move elsewhere with Hamilton getting soccer instead.

“Hostco apparently has made preliminary decision to move it. I don’t think it’s right. I think it should have remained with Hamilton,” he added.

Miller argued that part of the goal of hosting the Pan Am Games is to build legacies that can endure long after the Games.

“Rejuvenating Hamilton’s downtown would be an incredible legacy,” he said. “My view is the Tiger Cats should be proud to be part of that.”

[bigguy1231]

Here's a link to some comments from Toronto Mayor David Millar supporting the selection of the West Harbour if anyone is interested. I don't know if anyone else posted it, but here you go.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/article/847696--toronto-mayor-urges-ticats-to-rethink-stand

Edit:I see ya beat me to it.

[markbarbera]

Toronto mayor urges Ticats to rethink stand

Published On Fri Aug 13 2010
Vanessa Lu
Staff Reporter
http://www.thestar.com/sports/article/847696--toronto-mayor-urges-ticats-to-rethink-stand

Toronto Mayor David Miller says the Hamilton Tiger-Cats should rethink its decision to walk away from the downtown site for the Pan Am stadium.

“The idea of having stadiums at the intersections of expressways is an idea from the 1970s. It’s totally out of date,” Miller told the Star on Friday. “I hope the Ticats come back to the table.”

Owner Bob Young threw the Ticats’ future into doubt this week when he announced the team would not move to the city’s preferred choice on the west harbour, considered key to Hamilton’s revitalization efforts.

Hamilton city council voted 10-6 for the downtown site, which Mayor Fred Eisenberger had pushed hard, over a spot on the East Mountain, preferred by Young and the team.

The Tiger-Cats play in 80-year-old Ivor Wynne, which needs to be replaced, but Young has threatened to move the CFL franchise to another city.

“The American owner of the Ticats has done wonderful things,” Miller said. “But this is an American idea of where you put a stadium — out in the suburbs at the intersection of highways. It’s not a Canadian idea.”

Miller pointed to the success of BMO Field where the Toronto FC soccer club plays its home games, just a stone’s throw from the waterfront.

“You walk in the Liberty district before and after a TFC game and it’s booming. It’s helped rejuvenate Parkdale,” the mayor said. “That’s what a stadium can do if you put it in the right place.”

Miller said he hopes provincial and Pan Am officials will back the city of Hamilton, which does not know if the stadium can go ahead if there is no permanent tenant after the 2015 Games.

“They have made the right decision,” Miller said, adding the city deserves to host track and field, even though Pan Am officials announced last month amid the stadium wrangling that those events would move elsewhere with Hamilton getting soccer instead.

“Hostco apparently has made preliminary decision to move it. I don’t think it’s right. I think it should have remained with Hamilton,” he added.

Miller argued that part of the goal of hosting the Pan Am Games is to build legacies that can endure long after the Games.

“Rejuvenating Hamilton’s downtown would be an incredible legacy,” he said. “My view is the Tiger Cats should be proud to be part of that.”

Thus says the lameduck mayor that practically bankrupted Toronto. I guess as a member of the Toronto socialist elite he feels a certain noblesse oblige towards poor confused Hamilton.

[Berklon]

....yup and the Bills are an American team in a small market. What do you think NFL tickets would cost in Toronto if they had their own team? Likely even more than when its not their own team ie Bills.


Actually the Bills games in Toronto were priced higher than most NFL teams tickets to recoup the costs of having the games played there. They paid a pretty penny for the games. The Bills have one of the lowest, if not THE lowest ticket prices in the NFL.

A permanent NFL team in Toronto will obviously have higher ticket prices than Bills in Buffalo, but it won't be as high as the Bills in Toronto series prices. People in Toronto will pay these prices because it will be THEIR TEAM and not some crappy team from a crappy city.

[bigguy1231]

I am fine with us disagreeing about many things discussed in this thread, but lets keep it at a level of civility. I don't appreciate a personal attack like this from you, and would like you very much to refrain from attacking in this manner in the future.

If I didn't like being on this forum I would show you what an uncivil attack is. You really need to grow a thicker skin. It was a minor criticism.

[dennis1]

Actually the Bills games in Toronto were priced higher than most NFL teams tickets to recoup the costs of having the games played there. They paid a pretty penny for the games. The Bills have one of the lowest, if not THE lowest ticket prices in the NFL.

A permanent NFL team in Toronto will obviously have higher ticket prices than Bills in Buffalo, but it won't be as high as the Bills in Toronto series prices. People in Toronto will pay these prices because it will be THEIR TEAM and not some crappy team from a crappy city.

Thank you

NFL is billions of dollars. Guaranteed to make money. Even Jax does and their owner says its not enough.

The CFL has not been this healthy in a while. 10 years ago the league was in a pit.

[dennis1]

Are you really nieve enough to believe the city receives nothing from Ticats games? Wow perhaps you should educate yourself on what 20,000+crowd events do for a cities GDP and economic activity.

And then tell me what an 80,000 seat stadium in Dtwn TO woulddo for Toronto with and NFL team and a new MLB park nearby. Probably more money for the whole region than just the CFL in Hamilton.

Then again, this is all moot. Like I said before TO already has MLB and NBA, are you against that too? Last time I checked the NHL was ran out of NYC, do you watch too?

But the point is at the end of the day, more people like the NFL in Southern Ontario. It is their right and nothing you say will change them. Why should they be denied what the want to watch live at a stadium while Argos fans get theirs and you get yours?

[dennis1]

Thus says the lameduck mayor that practically bankrupted Toronto. I guess as a member of the Toronto socialist elite he feels a certain noblesse oblige towards poor confused Hamilton.

Socialist? Really? Not everything in the media is true. The TO council is some of the worst in the Great Lakes.

[Mister F]

A strong CFL means more football fans in Canada...and more NFL fans. The NFL knows this and the last thing they want is to sabotage the CFL. The NFL's bottom line benefits not by putting teams in other countries, but by encouraging other leagues to grow. Just like the NHL encourages hockey leagues in Europe and European soccer leagues encourage MLS. I don't expect a Toronto NFL team anytime soon, if ever.

Winnipeg has just started construction of their new CFL stadium. This is the first new stadium for a CFL team in decades.
The new stadium doesn't have much in common with East Mountain. It's not on a highway (farther from one than WH) and it's more accessible to to transit. It has synergies with the university, including parking, and it doesn't result in lost revenues from building on prestige employment lands. It's a good location.

BTW, some have criticized WH with the argument that parking lots will disappear if downtown revitalizes. This argument doesn't have much merit considering high density downtown developments have underground parking. With all the parking lots around SkyDome disappearing over the last 10 years, there's still plenty of public parking available in the area. It's just in garages now.

Does it matter? The city has consistently refused to consider road improvements for the area.

Heck, if you are going to tack on a $200 million road to the overall stadium development price tag, all of a sudden EM becomes the significantly cheaper alternative.
It's kind of a moot point because highway access isn't needed. The West Harbour site is no less accessible to highways than any other new or refurbished CFL stadium.

Thus says the lameduck mayor that practically bankrupted Toronto. I guess as a member of the Toronto socialist elite he feels a certain noblesse oblige towards poor confused Hamilton.
How exactly does one bankrupt a city when it's illegal to run a deficit? While spending has increased under Miller, property tax rates have been stable, the city's credit rating has improved, and its reserve fund has grown. The idea that Miller is bankrupting Toronto is a complete fabrication.

Hell, at least in Hamilton I didn't have the pleasure of seeing some crackhead hold a woman hostage with a gun in front of our train station - and eventually get taken out by a sniper team.
The hostage incident or seeing beggars doesn't make downtown unsafe. To put it in perspective, Toronto has the entire population of Hamilton in its downtown every day. I highly doubt that, per capita, it has more crime.

[SteelTown]

A pitch for pro soccer
Hamilton 'ripe' for a team, say Canadian greats

John Kernaghan
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/249030--a-pitch-for-pro-soccer

A business plan based on soccer and other activities is enough to support a 15,000- to 20,000-seat Pan Am Games stadium in the west harbour, says Hamilton's best-known soccer player.

"We could have some of the best soccer ever played on Canadian soil here in Hamilton," said John McGrane. "You could have a Manchester United, a Chelsea, an Inter Milan playing in Hamilton."

His comments come as city staff develop a Plan B to establish that a $100-million to $150-million stadium can be sustainable without the Tiger-Cats.

The former national-team star, recent hall-of-famer and sports businessman said the critical mass is in place to make it work.

"But the No.1 priority right now has to be the Tiger-Cats," he stressed. "I'm a fan and want them to stay. It would be better for the taxpayer if you had the Ticats and soccer in a stadium."

The city's Pan Am expert, David Adames, said soccer has always been part of the plan for the stadium. The city will be reaching out to the national and provincial soccer associations and people like McGrane as it develops its case.

Soccer became more important after Athletics Canada was successful in getting track and field moved from Hamilton to Toronto. Soccer replaced those events for the 2015 Games.

McGrane, who Ticats owner Bob Young sought out before he proposed a North American Soccer League team for the east Mountain, said simple math indicates the game can flourish from the developmental to the pro level in Hamilton.

"There are close to 28,000 people playing soccer in Hamilton. That means their families and friends -- around 200,000 people or almost half of the city's population -- are touched by soccer."

He said the soccer legacy from the Pan Am Games, in concert with attendant Canadian Soccer Association programs, would vastly improve local development.

The former general manager of the Hamilton Steelers says that means local players competing as pros before home crowds.

"That's the exciting legacy that has been lost in the stadium debate."

A voice from Canada's West Coast agrees with this assessment.

Vancouver Whitecaps president Bob Lenarduzzi says Hamilton is "absolutely" primed for a soccer surge.

Lenarduzzi, whose Whitecaps will move from a second division level to Major League Soccer next year, said the city could support a second division or NASL-level team that would play around 20 home games annually.

And that does not mean second-rate, he pointed out.

"You can't compare it to the NHL and AHL," Lenarduzzi said.

The Whitecaps have a winning record against Toronto FC of the MLS in the national pro championship tournament and NASL teams have upset higher-ranked teams.

So a Hamilton team would meet the Toronto team annually even though they are in different leagues.

[SteelTown]

City looking for ways to get Ticats back in game

Emma Reilly
THE HAMILTON SPECTATOR
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/249028--city-looking-for-ways-to-get-ticats-back-in-game

The city is mulling over several sweeteners to convince the Tiger -Cats to play at the proposed west harbour stadium.

Councillors are talking about tourism deals, contributions towards the Cats' operating costs and proposals to pay for tickets as potential deals to offer the Canadian Football League club.

"I don't question that the west harbour is the best spot for the city," said Councillor Terry Whitehead, who voted against the west harbour site. "But if we really believe it's the best site for the Tiger -Cats, we should be prepared to put our money where our mouth is."

But before the city can put these deals on the table, it needs to convince the team to reopen negotiations. Relations between the team and the city have been tense for several weeks.

Council voted earlier this week to build the Pan Am stadium at the west harbour -- a move that further distanced them from the Ticats' stance. The team preferred the east Mountain site, which offered easy highway access and ample room for parking, but was considerably more expensive for the city.

Several councillors say that after the high-stress events of the past week, both the city and the Ticats need a few days to cool off. Many say they've been drained by the events of the past few days.

"It's created a need to step back," said Councillor Bernie Morelli. "There's been a few hurts, but they're hurts I would hope can be repaired."

After days of public bombshells, the Pan Am stadium debate has moved behind closed doors. But some councillors are working behind the scenes to extend an olive branch to the Cats. One insider said some councillors have talked to Tiger-Cats representatives in an effort to reach out.

Though no formal proposals have been made, one of the possibilities floated to entice the Cats to the west harbour was to guarantee a certain amount of ticket sales for every game. If ticket sales were short of that mark, the city would pick up the difference.

At Tuesday's council meeting, Councillor Bob Bratina recommended distributing the extra tickets to people who couldn't afford to buy tickets on their own.

Others say the city needs to support the Cats' desire to expand their fan base to surrounding areas through tourism deals. There's also a chance the city could continue to fund the team's operations, at a cost of millions per year.

But the first step will be to break the silence.

"My sense from insiders is that cooler heads will prevail and they'll at least open it up for some dialogue," said Whitehead.

[dennis1]

A strong CFL means more football fans in Canada...and more NFL fans. The NFL knows this and the last thing they want is to sabotage the CFL. The NFL's bottom line benefits not by putting teams in other countries, but by encouraging other leagues to grow. Just like the NHL encourages hockey leagues in Europe and European soccer leagues encourage MLS. I don't expect a Toronto NFL team anytime soon, if ever.


The new stadium doesn't have much in common with East Mountain. It's not on a highway (farther from one than WH) and it's more accessible to to transit. It has synergies with the university, including parking, and it doesn't result in lost revenues from building on prestige employment lands. It's a good location.

BTW, some have criticized WH with the argument that parking lots will disappear if downtown revitalizes. This argument doesn't have much merit considering high density downtown developments have underground parking. With all the parking lots around SkyDome disappearing over the last 10 years, there's still plenty of public parking available in the area. It's just in garages now.


It's kind of a moot point because highway access isn't needed. The West Harbour site is no less accessible to highways than any other new or refurbished CFL stadium.


How exactly does one bankrupt a city when it's illegal to run a deficit? While spending has increased under Miller, property tax rates have been stable, the city's credit rating has improved, and its reserve fund has grown. The idea that Miller is bankrupting Toronto is a complete fabrication.


The hostage incident or seeing beggars doesn't make downtown unsafe. To put it in perspective, Toronto has the entire population of Hamilton in its downtown every day. I highly doubt that, per capita, it has more crime.

I'm just BS'ing. They want London followed by LA for now. Toronto and Mexico City will come if those markets work out.

[dennis1]

A pitch for pro soccer
Hamilton 'ripe' for a team, say Canadian greats

John Kernaghan
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/249030--a-pitch-for-pro-soccer

A business plan based on soccer and other activities is enough to support a 15,000- to 20,000-seat Pan Am Games stadium in the west harbour, says Hamilton's best-known soccer player.

"We could have some of the best soccer ever played on Canadian soil here in Hamilton," said John McGrane. "You could have a Manchester United, a Chelsea, an Inter Milan playing in Hamilton."

His comments come as city staff develop a Plan B to establish that a $100-million to $150-million stadium can be sustainable without the Tiger-Cats.

The former national-team star, recent hall-of-famer and sports businessman said the critical mass is in place to make it work.

"But the No.1 priority right now has to be the Tiger-Cats," he stressed. "I'm a fan and want them to stay. It would be better for the taxpayer if you had the Ticats and soccer in a stadium."

The city's Pan Am expert, David Adames, said soccer has always been part of the plan for the stadium. The city will be reaching out to the national and provincial soccer associations and people like McGrane as it develops its case.

Soccer became more important after Athletics Canada was successful in getting track and field moved from Hamilton to Toronto. Soccer replaced those events for the 2015 Games.

McGrane, who Ticats owner Bob Young sought out before he proposed a North American Soccer League team for the east Mountain, said simple math indicates the game can flourish from the developmental to the pro level in Hamilton.

"There are close to 28,000 people playing soccer in Hamilton. That means their families and friends -- around 200,000 people or almost half of the city's population -- are touched by soccer."

He said the soccer legacy from the Pan Am Games, in concert with attendant Canadian Soccer Association programs, would vastly improve local development.

The former general manager of the Hamilton Steelers says that means local players competing as pros before home crowds.

"That's the exciting legacy that has been lost in the stadium debate."

A voice from Canada's West Coast agrees with this assessment.

Vancouver Whitecaps president Bob Lenarduzzi says Hamilton is "absolutely" primed for a soccer surge.

Lenarduzzi, whose Whitecaps will move from a second division level to Major League Soccer next year, said the city could support a second division or NASL-level team that would play around 20 home games annually.

And that does not mean second-rate, he pointed out.

"You can't compare it to the NHL and AHL," Lenarduzzi said.

The Whitecaps have a winning record against Toronto FC of the MLS in the national pro championship tournament and NASL teams have upset higher-ranked teams.

So a Hamilton team would meet the Toronto team annually even though they are in different leagues.

NASL.

MLS?

Let's say Katz announces the MLS is coming with AEG. In theory, what does Young do then.

[markbarbera]

MSL is not setting up here. They already have Toronto in this region. NASL-2 may be a fit, bearing in mind semi-pro soccer has failed in Hamilton twice already.

NASL rights for this region are held by whom? Not Katz...

[dennis1]

MSL is not setting up here. They already have Toronto in this region. NASL-2 may be a fit, bearing in mind semi-pro soccer has failed in Hamilton twice already.

NASL rights for this region are held by whom? Not Katz...

See and that's the problem. We may as well go for the big fish because the minor leagues have failed here already.

[BCTed]

NASL.

MLS?

Let's say Katz announces the MLS is coming with AEG. In theory, what does Young do then.

This thread has way too much Katz and way too much MLS. Neither of them have anything to do with anything.

[markbarbera]

We are far too close to the market for FC Toronto for MLS to consider any team here, particularly at this stage of the agreement. Besides there is a min 75% US-based teams for the league. With current expansion there would have to be 3-4 more US-based teams established before another Canadian team could even be considered.

[Urban_Genius]

We are far too close to the market for FC Toronto for MLS to consider any team here, particularly at this stage of the agreement. Besides there is a min 75% US-based teams for the league. With current expansion there would have to be 3-4 more US-based teams established before another Canadian team could even be considered.

Not to mention soccer still has a ways to go.
There's no way MLSE allows a second team in the market, when the market won't be able to support it.

We can also forget the NASL (USL) if the Ti-Cats arent involved in the stadium.

That leaves semi-pro soccer as the only option.
Also Katz is not interested in the stadium. He will not own a soccer team, CFL team or a NHL team in Hamilton. We might as well forget his name, it's not relevant in the discussion.


Edit- here's an article I found in your local paper. Might be of interest.
http://www.thespec.com/sports/article/248965--cfl-s-fate-doesn-t-rest-with-ticats

[Berklon]

I really have no interest in soccer at all... you couldn't pay me to watch something that boring. However, there are those out there who do enjoy watching it - but only at a professional level.

No-one will care about a NASL, USL or other mickey-mouse soccer league. They shouldn't even bother with that nonsense. It's a sure failure.

[mattgrande]

Does Bob Young really "own the rights" to an NASL franchise in Hamilton? I thought he just put in a bid for a team? Will the NASL allow an owner to own two teams (Young already owns a team in North Carolina)? Will the NASL want to play in a football/soccer combo stadium? According to this article (http://www.metronews.ca/toronto/blog/post/589838--hamilton-and-ottawa-formally-apply-to-nasl), the "NASL has made it a mandate to have soccer-specific facilities for any new franchises joining the league."

[Blurr]

Since Young did not want to give us any reports, is it possible for us to come up with the numbers that may be different from site to site?

For example, lets compare the West Harbour to a green field stadium next to a highway.

How much would the difference in naming rights?
How much would be the difference in parking revenue?
How much would the difference on concessions be. (cant walk to any bars or restuarants nearby at green field site)
How much difference in building costs?
Anything else that I missed.

Lets ignore the indirect benefit/cost the city may see from the WH such as increased property taxes, development... ect. Or the indirect benefit/cost of the other site

This is where I differ on other views of others including the chamber of commerce. I don't think any site would be a good investment as a return on dollars. I think this is a result of poor CFL economics. I also think the $ difference between the two will be lower than most peoples expectations.

Keep in mind a 60 million investment has to make 1.2 million a year just to cover inflation. Also keep in mind the city currently looses over 1mil operating the current Ivor Wynn (about the same as the inflation adjusted amount of 60million).

[Acajack]

Driving to Ralph Wilson Stadium in Buffalo you have to hit a few tolls as well.

Yeah but they aren't specifically related to getting to the stadium and aren't targeted at Bills/stadium patrons only. If tolls were on an access road *just* for a Ticats stadium, the optics of this would be terrible.

Also, I suppose you might be able to take toll revenues and dedicate them to a publicly-owned stadium, but giving tolls from a public road to a pro sports team (as has been suggested I think) might actually be illegal, or at least dicey from a legal perspective.

Unless the Ticats actually built and owned to road themselves. But I've never seen a private enterprise charge a toll for people to access a road leading to their business...

[Acajack]

And then tell me what an 80,000 seat stadium in Dtwn TO woulddo for Toronto with and NFL team and a new MLB park nearby. Probably more money for the whole region than just the CFL in Hamilton.



Unless, I missed something, since when is this a debate between a PanAn/CFL stadium in Hamilton and an 80,000-seat NFL stadium in Toronto?

Is there anything remotely close to an embryon of a plan for such a behemoth somewhere in the 416 that someone might want to locate an NFL franchise in?

[Acajack]

BTW, what is this crap from David Miller and why has no one called him on it?

“The American owner of the Ticats has done wonderful things,” Miller said. “But this is an American idea of where you put a stadium — out in the suburbs at the intersection of highways. It’s not a Canadian idea.”

Isn't Bob Young Canadian as far as everyone is concerned? It is especially ridiculous when Miller himself is born in San Francisco and only moved to Canada in his teens.

Furthermore, is there only one way to have "Canadian" ideas...

[Acajack]

Schools out in Regina have courses on sports franchises?



You seem to be taking this a little too personally.

I really hope Toronto gets an NFL team... even moreso now.

Come on Berklon... you can do better than that.

I am having problems with my BlackBerry, so as revenge I really hope Hamilton NEVER gets an NHL team, because Mr. BlackBerry Jim Balsillie is the guy who wants a team for Steeltown... Please people!

[Acajack]

Ticats are playing brilliantly right now, by the way. Why not tune in and enjoy them while they still carry the Hamilton name?

You know full well most people won't pay attention to the Ticats game when there is an NCAA Division 56 pre-season game between Buckwheat State and Northeastern Southern Western Kentucky A&M on another channel...

[Acajack]

What do you want from me? This is Southern Ontario. People now look south and that want change for the time being.


history is only mandatory for ontario in grade 10. and its not even canadian. a lot of kids take american history in grade 11
.

Yeah... I fail to see what that has to do with the CFL. Someone's preference has nothing to do with national pride.


You are of course free to do and think what you want. However, people are also free to draw their own conclusions based on what the see and hear from you and others like you.

For example, they may conclude that expressions of "Canadian pride" which are still quite common in Southern Ontario are a bit hollow or even hypocritical given the amount of Americanization found in certain individuals or even population subgroups.

Now, before people tell me I am taking this too personally or whatever else, please note that I am not a "patriotic Canadian nationalist" in the slightest.

But looking at it as an observer, as I have said before... I just find the juxtaposition of a 100% preference for American cultural products (and I include sports in "culture", BTW) on the one hand, and gushing Canadian pride on the other, to be a bit bizarre.

[Acajack]

I really have no interest in soccer at all... you couldn't pay me to watch something that boring. However, there are those out there who do enjoy watching it - but only at a professional level.

No-one will care about a NASL, USL or other mickey-mouse soccer league. They shouldn't even bother with that nonsense. It's a sure failure.

I agree with this 100%. You will probably get 800 people out per game for tier-2 or tier-3 soccer like this.

This does not equate to a sellable "legacy" for a 15,000-seat stadium.

[dennis1]

BTW, what is this crap from David Miller and why has no one called him on it?

“The American owner of the Ticats has done wonderful things,” Miller said. “But this is an American idea of where you put a stadium — out in the suburbs at the intersection of highways. It’s not a Canadian idea.”

Isn't Bob Young Canadian as far as everyone is concerned? It is especially ridiculous when Miller himself is born in San Francisco and only moved to Canada in his teens.

Furthermore, is there only one way to have "Canadian" ideas...

He lives in NC.

[dennis1]

You are of course free to do and think what you want. However, people are also free to draw their own conclusions based on what the see and hear from you and others like you.

For example, they may conclude that expressions of "Canadian pride" which are still quite common in Southern Ontario are a bit hollow or even hypocritical given the amount of Americanization found in certain individuals or even population subgroups.

Now, before people tell me I am taking this too personally or whatever else, please note that I am not a "patriotic Canadian nationalist" in the slightest.

But looking at it as an observer, as I have said before... I just find the juxtaposition of a 100% preference for American cultural products (and I include sports in "culture", BTW) on the one hand, and gushing Canadian pride on the other, to be a bit bizarre.

I have to agree. Its just that how can you bash TO for the NFL when they have the other 3?

[dennis1]

Unless, I missed something, since when is this a debate between a PanAn/CFL stadium in Hamilton and an 80,000-seat NFL stadium in Toronto?

Is there anything remotely close to an embryon of a plan for such a behemoth somewhere in the 416 that someone might want to locate an NFL franchise in?

The Port Lands is would be a good area. A bob young could also be pulled and it could be built in Halton Hills.

[Berklon]

Come on Berklon... you can do better than that.

I am having problems with my BlackBerry, so as revenge I really hope Hamilton NEVER gets an NHL team, because Mr. BlackBerry Jim Balsillie is the guy who wants a team for Steeltown... Please people!

Don't take my comment too seriously. I want an NFL team in Toronto regardless. However, I would like to hear what CFL fans think if/when an NFL team comes there. I've already heard bitching and moaning that it'll kill the CFL - but as I always say, competition is a good thing. Adapt or perish. If the CFL is so great - then it'll survive an NFL team in Toronto.

[Mister F]

I have to agree. Its just that how can you bash TO for the NFL when they have the other 3?
Simple really. Football is the only sport where we have our own league. In every other sport, with the possible exception of hockey, we piggyback on another country's league. Canadians have this bizarre attitude where we don't consider anything worthwile unless Americans are involved. Hence the desire for an NFL team in Toronto, and MLS teams in Canada instead of creating our own soccer league. Hockey is kind of an exception because the NHL started in Canada...we just allowed it to be taken over by Americans.

[dennis1]

Simple really. Football is the only sport where we have our own league. In every other sport, with the possible exception of hockey, we piggyback on another country's league. Canadians have this bizarre attitude where we don't consider anything worthwile unless Americans are involved. Hence the desire for an NFL team in Toronto, and MLS teams in Canada instead of creating our own soccer league. Hockey is kind of an exception because the NHL started in Canada...we just allowed it to be taken over by Americans.

You know if we really wanted to Soccer and Basketball could get started easily. Both are cheap and would have more current reach then the CFL. We are just lazy when it comes to sports.

[dennis1]

Don't take my comment too seriously. I want an NFL team in Toronto regardless. However, I would like to hear what CFL fans think if/when an NFL team comes there. I've already heard bitching and moaning that it'll kill the CFL - but as I always say, competition is a good thing. Adapt or perish. If the CFL is so great - then it'll survive an NFL team in Toronto.

Bingo!

Berklon is my internet best friend.:D

[mattgrande]

“The American owner of the Ticats has done wonderful things,” Miller said. “But this is an American idea of where you put a stadium — out in the suburbs at the intersection of highways. It’s not a Canadian idea.”

Isn't Bob Young Canadian as far as everyone is concerned? It is especially ridiculous when Miller himself is born in San Francisco and only moved to Canada in his teens.


He was born in Ancaster, and I think went to school at Mac (some southern Ontario school, anyway). But he's lived in North Carolina for decades now. I'd be surprised if he owns any more than a (rather large) cottage in Canada.

[mattgrande]

Simple really. Football is the only sport where we have our own league. In every other sport, with the possible exception of hockey, we piggyback on another country's league. Canadians have this bizarre attitude where we don't consider anything worthwile unless Americans are involved. Hence the desire for an NFL team in Toronto, and MLS teams in Canada instead of creating our own soccer league. Hockey is kind of an exception because the NHL started in Canada...we just allowed it to be taken over by Americans.

We do have our own, they're just wildly unpopular.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Soccer_League
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Hockey_League

[Acajack]

Don't take my comment too seriously. I want an NFL team in Toronto regardless. However, I would like to hear what CFL fans think if/when an NFL team comes there. I've already heard bitching and moaning that it'll kill the CFL - but as I always say, competition is a good thing. Adapt or perish. If the CFL is so great - then it'll survive an NFL team in Toronto.

I think the NFL in Toronto is pretty much a moot point until someone steps up with the private money for BOTH the franchise AND the stadium.

[Berklon]

I think the NFL in Toronto is pretty much a moot point until someone steps up with the private money for BOTH the franchise AND the stadium.

Yeah, we don't have any real indication anything is happening, but Im sure there's been some investors kicking some tires and thinking about it.

Canadians have this bizarre attitude where we don't consider anything worthwile unless Americans are involved.

I've seen this attitude, but I think one major knock Canadians have against the CFL is that it's hard to take a league seriously when it has only 8 teams. It almost seems necessary to have American involved just to increase the number of teams.
As much as we like hockey in Canada, if the league were comprised of only Canadian teams (adding Quebec, Winnipeg, Hamilton and another Toronto team) with only 10 teams the league would feel sorta amateurish. For better or worse, we're used to bigger leagues now. It doesn't have to be 30 - but 8 or 10 feels too small. 12 might not even cut it. 16 is probably the minimum for it to feel right. Hell, soccer really isn't a big draw in Canada/US - yet MLS has 16 teams.

[Acajack]

Yeah, we don't have any real indication anything is happening, but Im sure there's been some investors kicking some tires and thinking about it.


A billion dollars + for the team and a billion + for the stadium. Not many people around with that much money in their bank account. Though a group of super-rich investors might be able to raise that kind of money.

[Berklon]

A billion dollars + for the team and a billion + for the stadium. Not many people around with that much money in their bank account. Though a group of super-rich investors might be able to raise that kind of money.

Definitely... I'm sure it would come from a group of investors and not just a single rich guy. It's a big chunk of change.

[dennis1]

Aca and Berklon - do you really think it will be 2 bil???

Lets assume Tannebaum/Rogers buys the Minnesota Vikings- $850 mill

A stadium at Downsivew = $700 mil


That's 1.55. Still alot but with the right timing and logistics it could work. This is before cost overruns though.

[Berklon]

I'm thinking in the 1.5 billion range as well myself.

The first teams I see moving (to LA, Toronto, or whereever) are the Jaguars and the Bills though.

If there's a group seriously interested in bringing a team to Toronto, I can see MLSE jumping in with a bid to combat losing the fans' entertainment dollars as well as some corporate support which would require them to drop some prices. Just my hunch.

[Mister F]

What does the NFL gain by expanding into Canada?

I've seen this attitude, but I think one major knock Canadians have against the CFL is that it's hard to take a league seriously when it has only 8 teams. It almost seems necessary to have American involved just to increase the number of teams.
As much as we like hockey in Canada, if the league were comprised of only Canadian teams (adding Quebec, Winnipeg, Hamilton and another Toronto team) with only 10 teams the league would feel sorta amateurish. For better or worse, we're used to bigger leagues now. It doesn't have to be 30 - but 8 or 10 feels too small. 12 might not even cut it. 16 is probably the minimum for it to feel right. Hell, soccer really isn't a big draw in Canada/US - yet MLS has 16 teams.
Most sports leagues are smaller than what we’re used to. The Australian Football League has 16 teams, most of which are in one city. The English rugby Premiership has only 12 teams. That doesn’t keep fans in those countries from taking them seriously. A couple expansion teams is all it would take to get the CFL into that territory.

As for hockey, Canada could support 10 NHL teams at least. If our league system worked the way it does everywhere else, we’d probably have several more than that and multiple teams in big cities.

We do have our own, they're just wildly unpopular.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Soccer_League
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Hockey_League
That kind of proves my point. Nobody pays attention until we join American leagues. With the support that pro soccer teams in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver get, a Canadian league that would be at the same level as MLS is entirely possible. But if we tried to build a league without joining American leagues first, it would have been ignored.

edit: by the way, the CHL is anything but wildly unpopular.

[dennis1]

Well immeadiately, the same thing they gain from London: A big market with lots of corporate support. Long term: I am not sure.

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/football/2010/06/15/14398381.html

TORONTO -- Simply staging a game in a foreign country is not enough to generate loyal overseas fans, the National Football League is discovering.

[dennis1]

I'm thinking in the 1.5 billion range as well myself.

The first teams I see moving (to LA, Toronto, or whereever) are the Jaguars and the Bills though.

If there's a group seriously interested in bringing a team to Toronto, I can see MLSE jumping in with a bid to combat losing the fans' entertainment dollars as well as some corporate support which would require them to drop some prices. Just my hunch.

I agree. I think it will be the LA first. Or an attempt to get LA in again. They will give up if the Roski thing does not work out. The corporate base is too much too ignore. The money will be there if the fans are not.


There was Toronto ties to a bid for the St Louis Rams.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs/from-the-sidelines/rams-to-toronto/article1456062/
Just like Acajack said. The stadium has to be built.

For the CFL, Argos should be at BMO. They have to stay downtown. Most of the Pro NFL crowd is from the burbs.

[Berklon]

What does the NFL gain by expanding into Canada?

What did MLB and the NBA gain by expanding to Canada?

[Urban_Genius]

I'm thinking in the 1.5 billion range as well myself.

The first teams I see moving (to LA, Toronto, or whereever) are the Jaguars and the Bills though.

If there's a group seriously interested in bringing a team to Toronto, I can see MLSE jumping in with a bid to combat losing the fans' entertainment dollars as well as some corporate support which would require them to drop some prices. Just my hunch.

You're underestimating big time the cost of an NFL franchise a stadium. It's a near 2 billion dollar proposition.

Secondly, you guys are aware that corporations aren't allowed to own NFL teams? How about the fact that you can't own teams in other professional league? There goes Rogers and MLSE.

Let's not even talk about a stadium.

Personally I don't buy a second into the NFL to Canada fantasy. Having said that, I don't think it would affect the CFL one bit. I don't follow people's logic when they claim it would kill the league. In fact, I'd argue that's absurd.

[Urban_Genius]

Yeah, we don't have any real indication anything is happening, but Im sure there's been some investors kicking some tires and thinking about it.



I've seen this attitude, but I think one major knock Canadians have against the CFL is that it's hard to take a league seriously when it has only 8 teams. It almost seems necessary to have American involved just to increase the number of teams.
As much as we like hockey in Canada, if the league were comprised of only Canadian teams (adding Quebec, Winnipeg, Hamilton and another Toronto team) with only 10 teams the league would feel sorta amateurish. For better or worse, we're used to bigger leagues now. It doesn't have to be 30 - but 8 or 10 feels too small. 12 might not even cut it. 16 is probably the minimum for it to feel right. Hell, soccer really isn't a big draw in Canada/US - yet MLS has 16 teams.
It;s funny how we look at the Original six era in hockey with such glowing reviews and talk about how those were the good 'ol days (yes, that same era where someone owned multiple teams), but heaven forbid someone actually look at the CFL positively.

I understand the CFL is not for everyone, but pretty much all CFL fans agree that one of the best parts of the league is how small it is. It strengthens rivalries and allows fans to be very well intune with the whole league. That's partly why CFL fans are so knowledgable about their league. You can watch every single game.

Take the NHL for example. I'm also a die hard NHL fan, but I'm ignorant to a good chunk of teams. You simply can't follow them closely.

I do admit 10 teams would be great

[thurmas]

the best era in hockey history was late 80's eraly 90's.you had the best pure skill in history with mario and wayne and temmu and jagr and stevie y the list goes on.the rivalries were great with habs nords battle of alberta, detroit -chicago,canucks jets ect..

[Berklon]

You're underestimating big time the cost of an NFL franchise a stadium. It's a near 2 billion dollar proposition.

Secondly, you guys are aware that corporations aren't allowed to own NFL teams? How about the fact that you can't own teams in other professional league? There goes Rogers and MLSE.

Yes, forgot about the whole corporations own NFL team thing... which makes me feel better than MLSE can't own them.

In any case, someone will be buying the Bills and Jaguars and who knows who else - they will probably have to put up 2 billion as well. I don't think Toronto's as much a "fantasy" as some think. We'll see I guess.

[Mister F]

Well immeadiately, the same thing they gain from London: A big market with lots of corporate support. Long term: I am not sure.

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/football/2010/06/15/14398381.html
You don't need to leave the States for that. Besides, the NFL already has a fan base here as well as a TV deal.

What did MLB and the NBA gain by expanding to Canada?
Access to an untapped market. That doesn't exist with football. The NFL is already making money from football fans here, but if NFL expansion damages the CFL or even puts it out of business the NFL would find itself with a smaller fan base in Canada than it has now. The CFL is doing all the right things now but it wasn't so long ago that it almost went bankrupt...and it was the NFL that kept it afloat.

[realcity]

London ON rules

[mattgrande]

Listening to CHML this morning, I heard Bob Young say he wasn't going to sell the team, however:

- Moncton's Head of Parks & Rec hadn't heard anything, and says the mayor hasn't heard anything either.
- Burlington won't pay a dime towards a stadium
- Milton seems interested (at least that guy who's running for Ward 6 is), but is unsure how they'd fund a stadium of that size.

So if he's planning on moving, I bet Regina's looking pretty good right now.

The other option is folding the team but would the CFL survive being dropped to 7 teams? Would they allow it?

[dennis1]

the best era in hockey history was late 80's eraly 90's.you had the best pure skill in history with mario and wayne and temmu and jagr and stevie y the list goes on.the rivalries were great with habs nords battle of alberta, detroit -chicago,canucks jets ect..

This is why the CFL needs to stay. Look what Bettman has done to hockey. IMO if Don Fehr becomes NHLPA head you can expect the 2012 lockout. The NHL will not survive that(some will say they are not doing will now thurmas) and then the CFL becomes the 4th largest sports league in NA overnight. This is goof because it will force expansion.

[dennis1]

Listening to CHML this morning, I heard Bob Young say he wasn't going to sell the team, however:

- Moncton's Head of Parks & Rec hadn't heard anything, and says the mayor hasn't heard anything either.
- Burlington won't pay a dime towards a stadium
- Milton seems interested (at least that guy who's running for Ward 6 is), but is unsure how they'd fund a stadium of that size.

So if he's planning on moving, I bet Regina's looking pretty good right now.

The other option is folding the team but would the CFL survive being dropped to 7 teams? Would they allow it?

Burl - out
Milton - out
Moncton - ?
Saskatoon - Bingo
Halifax - ?

[dennis1]

It;s funny how we look at the Original six era in hockey with such glowing reviews and talk about how those were the good 'ol days (yes, that same era where someone owned multiple teams), but heaven forbid someone actually look at the CFL positively.

I understand the CFL is not for everyone, but pretty much all CFL fans agree that one of the best parts of the league is how small it is. It strengthens rivalries and allows fans to be very well intune with the whole league. That's partly why CFL fans are so knowledgable about their league. You can watch every single game.

Take the NHL for example. I'm also a die hard NHL fan, but I'm ignorant to a good chunk of teams. You simply can't follow them closely.

I do admit 10 teams would be great

16 teams would be great. Liven up the competition a bit
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Norris House League it what was mentioned. I remeber people making fun of the NHL for that too.

[Acajack]

You don't need to leave the States for that. Besides, the NFL already has a fan base here as well as a TV deal.


Access to an untapped market. That doesn't exist with football. The NFL is already making money from football fans here, but if NFL expansion damages the CFL or even puts it out of business the NFL would find itself with a smaller fan base in Canada than it has now. The CFL is doing all the right things now but it wasn't so long ago that it almost went bankrupt...and it was the NFL that kept it afloat.

I don't think the NFL has a burning desire to come to Toronto (and Canada). But they would probably not be against a team in Toronto if the conditions were right (read = $$$$$$$$$$$).

As for the NFL not wanting to hurt the CFL, well once again they won't deliberately harm it, but they also look out for number one (THEM).

If the Bills in Toronto series has shown anything, it is that the NFL can change its mind on things: first it came to Canada with regular season games after decades of saying it had no interest north of the border beyond "international" exhibition matches. And just this year they have gone against their pledge of playing all Bills games in Toronto after the Grey Cup.

The NFL does as the NFL pleases in what it perceives to be its best interest*. And too bad for the CFL.

*Which is only normal for a business. Let's just forget about any illusions we might have.

[Acajack]

Interesting that the Sun article reports that

The NFL says its biggest "absolute fan base""outside the U.S. is in Mexico,

Now, Canada only has one third of Mexico's population, but much of Canada shares a common language (and culture even) with the U.S. The NFL is pretty close to being a mainstream sports league in most of Canada, and there is a professional domestic league in Canada playing a similar sport as well as Canadian football programs at all levels. So this statement about Mexico comes as a bit of a surprise.

But I don't know Mexico well enough to comment on how big a deal the NFL is there.

[SteelTown]

If the Ti Cats were to ever relocate they HAVE to stay in the Eastern division to keep the balance.

[isaidso]

Interesting that the Sun article reports that

The NFL says its biggest "absolute fan base""outside the U.S. is in Mexico,

Now, Canada only has one third of Mexico's population, but much of Canada shares a common language (and culture even) with the U.S. The NFL is pretty close to being a mainstream sports league in most of Canada, and there is a professional domestic league in Canada playing a similar sport as well as Canadian football programs at all levels. So this statement about Mexico comes as a bit of a surprise.

But I don't know Mexico well enough to comment on how big a deal the NFL is there.

Unlike Canada, Mexico has no incumbent domestic football league. Mexico has 110 million people and is prime virgin territory for the NFL. It's a relatively new sport for Mexicans with no teams to satisfy the demand. An NFL game in 1994 drew 112,376 people in Mexico City. Toronto only managed 45,000 paying fans to Skydome and they had to scramble to fill the empty seats with freebies.

Canada is much smaller, and putting a team in Toronto doesn't expand the pie much for the NFL. It may even shrink it. Losing pro football teams right across Canada (a distinct possibility) to gain one NFL team in Toronto does not benefit the NFL.

If this transpired, gridiron would be reduced to a team in Toronto and the rest of the nation with nothing but college/high school teams. The sport of football will go into severe decline nationally. That's not in the interests of the NFL neither will it make them richer.

Look at basketball. The basketball market in Canada is basically Toronto due to the NBA and Nova Scotia due to its historical cultural importance there. Nova Scotians are into their own local teams though. It's not Raptor or NBA territory. Likewise, Manitoba isn't going to turn around and become a supporter of a Toronto NFL team if they lose the Bombers.

Mexico offers far better optics, a far larger market, fewer headaches, and more money than Toronto can. Really, that's what expansion to Canada could mean: one team in Toronto with the rest of the nation paying possibly a very high price for the arrival of that one team.

I doubt people in Montreal, Edmonton, Regina, etc. will be too enamoured with the NFL if they lose their teams over NFL expansion to Toronto. The NFL is better off in Mexico and/or expansion in their own country. There's little to no upside in the NFL putting a team in Toronto. This isn't basketball or baseball where there was no incumbent domestic league already in existence.

[dennis1]

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/columnists/bill_lankhof/2010/08/17/15045881.html#/sports/columnists/bill_lankhof/2010/08/17/pf-15045881.html

There’s one good thing to say about Hamilton and its city council: If Barnum and Bailey had clowns like this they’d never have had to fold the Big Top in the Greatest Show On Earth.

Hilarious.

The only difference is that in the political arena the clowns hide behind obfuscation instead of face paint.

But did we mention they’re hilarious? The politicians that is.


The Toronto Sun says Hamilton is Loserville. Thoughts?

[dennis1]

Unlike Canada, Mexico has no incumbent domestic football league. Mexico has 110 million people and is prime virgin territory for the NFL. It's a relatively new sport for Mexicans with no teams to satisfy the demand. A recent NFL game there drew 100,000 people. Toronto only managed 45,000 to Skydome and they had to scramble to fill the empty seats with freebies.

Canada is much smaller, and putting a team in Toronto doesn't expand the pie much for the NFL. It may even shrink it. Losing pro football teams right across Canada (a distinct possibility) to gain one NFL team in Toronto does not benefit the NFL. Gridiron would be reduced to a team in Toronto with the rest of the nation with nothing but college/high school teams. The sport of football will go into severe decline nationally. That's not in the interests of the NFL neither will it make them richer.

Look at basketball. The basketball market in Canada is basically Toronto due to the NBA and Nova Scotia due to its historical cultural importance there.

Mexico offers far better optics, a far larger market, fewer headaches, and more money than Toronto can. Really, that's what expansion to Canada would mean. It would mean one city with the rest of the nation paying possibly a very high price for that one team.

I doubt people in Montreal, Edmonton, Regina, etc. will be too enamoured with the NFL if they lose their teams over NFL expansion to Toronto. The NFL is better off in Mexico and/or expansion in their own country.

The only cities which would lose anything would be Regina and Winnipeg. We still have the NHL, which has a bigger fanbase.

[isaidso]

If the Ti Cats were to ever relocate they HAVE to stay in the Eastern division to keep the balance.

The only place that I want the Ti-Cats re-locating to is West Harbour.

[isaidso]

The only cities which would lose anything would be Regina and Winnipeg. We still have the NHL, which has a bigger fanbase.

Montreal, Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, and Hamilton losing their football teams isn't a loss in your books? Not everyone like hockey. What are those people supposed to do?

[dennis1]

I'm just saying more people care about hockey.

Then again I don't live in those places.

[isaidso]

I'm just saying more people care about hockey.

Montreal is big enough to support the NFL but that's neither here nor there.

That's of zero consolation to a football fan. You've just lost your team and your favourite sport got blown off the map. You're also assuming that Montrealers want to part with their Alouettes. NFL isn't even Canadian football.

If I were a hockey fan, getting a new hockey team playing some different brand of hockey because the Habs were forced to fold would not be an appealing option. I'd be beyond pissed off.

[Mister F]

As for the NFL not wanting to hurt the CFL, well once again they won't deliberately harm it, but they also look out for number one (THEM).
Absolutely. But what I've been saying is that the NFL benefits from a strong CFL for the same reason they wanted NFL Europe to succeed: more football fans (meaning more money) and a bigger talent pool. Put it this way...which way does the NFL make more money - with 8+ CFL teams and no NFL teams in Canada, or one NFL team in Canada and a bankrupt CFL? Obviously that's the worst case scenario but the last time the CFL tried to compete head to head with the NFL it almost bankrupted them.

Unlike Canada, Mexico has no incumbent domestic football league. Mexico has 110 million people and is prime virgin territory for the NFL. It's a relatively new sport for Mexicans with no teams to satisfy the demand.
Exactly. MLB and the NBA expanded into Canada for the same reasons.

[Berklon]

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/columnists/bill_lankhof/2010/08/17/15045881.html#/sports/columnists/bill_lankhof/2010/08/17/pf-15045881.html



The Toronto Sun says Hamilton is Loserville. Thoughts?

The article (or at least the tone) seems a bit harsh.

In any case I really think it's best to just abandon the whole thing as I stated the other day. No Pan-Am and no stadium. Just forget about it. The city is too divided on this issue - no point in wasting money on something that doesn't please the majority of people.

Fix up the West Harbour... throw in a 15,000 amphitheatre and get on Live Nation. It's a cheaper option, makes the WH a destination for 4 or 5 months of the year and gets much more use than a football team would. The area is more suited for that kind of venue anyways.

Or is this also a pipe dream like the NHL, MLS, Pan-Am, stadium, etc etc?

[mattgrande]

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/columnists/bill_lankhof/2010/08/17/15045881.html#/sports/columnists/bill_lankhof/2010/08/17/pf-15045881.html

The Toronto Sun says Hamilton is Loserville. Thoughts?

I really dislike the Toronto Sun, but the comments are always good for a chuckle.


While there are over half a million people in Hamilton, have you ever taken a GOOD look at the majority of the residents here? Maybe if the governemnts were offering free crack they'd support it.

...

I'M SURE WORD OF BILL'S COLUMN TODAY HAS REACHED CITY COUNCIL .I ONLY HOPE THE SUN CAN CONTINUE TO REPORT ON IT,(WITHOUT BORING YOUR READERS) AS MOST OF THESE "WANT TO BE POLITITIONS" ARE THRILLED WHEN SOMEONE FROM THE BIG CITY WRITES ABOUT THEM.

...

(One of my favourites) Hamilton needs to rebuild its waterfront but a football stadium is not the way to do it. In fact they should build a park on the waterfront as a start.

[Urban_Genius]

I'm just saying more people care about hockey.

Then again I don't live in those places.

Not in Saskatchewan.
But I fail to see your point in any case.
The NFL is not even the biggest sport in the 2 largest USA metropolitan areas, but that doesn`t mean it`s not important across the USA.

Or does it...

[Urban_Genius]

The other option is folding the team but would the CFL survive being dropped to 7 teams? Would they allow it?
The team will not fold. I can almost assure you that won`t be allowed.

The likely resolution is that the Ti-Cats find themselves somewhere in the Hamilton are, but maybe not exactly in Hamilton.

[markbarbera]

Listening to CHML this morning, I heard Bob Young say he wasn't going to sell the team, however:

- Moncton's Head of Parks & Rec hadn't heard anything, and says the mayor hasn't heard anything either.
- Burlington won't pay a dime towards a stadium
- Milton seems interested (at least that guy who's running for Ward 6 is), but is unsure how they'd fund a stadium of that size.

So if he's planning on moving, I bet Regina's looking pretty good right now.

The other option is folding the team but would the CFL survive being dropped to 7 teams? Would they allow it?

Relocating to a new stadium located somewhere within the GTA could see Pan Am events and funding originally intended for a Hamilton stadium redirected there instead. Hamilton is in a real lose-lose position right now.

Another couple of interesting notes from the CHCH coverage:


1. East Mountain was chosen as alternative for consideration by City and Fenn, not the Ticats. This concerns me because it indicates the debate was engineered by the city. They set up an unfair site comparison so to ensure WH would be favourable in comparison. This indicates that the city was never taking facilitation seriously. Worse, the city deliberately exploited an urban/suburban division that exists in the city.

2. According to HECFI's Duncan Gillespie, the Ticats account for 25% of the entertainment revenue generated in the city. Their loss certainly would not be 'no big deal' as some have been trying to paint out.

[dennis1]

Not in Saskatchewan.
But I fail to see your point in any case.
The NFL is not even the biggest sport in the 2 largest USA metropolitan areas, but that doesn`t mean it`s not important across the USA.

Or does it...

You are right on the second count. The NBA is bigger is some places even.

[dennis1]

Absolutely. But what I've been saying is that the NFL benefits from a strong CFL for the same reason they wanted NFL Europe to succeed: more football fans (meaning more money) and a bigger talent pool. Put it this way...which way does the NFL make more money - with 8+ CFL teams and no NFL teams in Canada, or one NFL team in Canada and a bankrupt CFL? Obviously that's the worst case scenario but the last time the CFL tried to compete head to head with the NFL it almost bankrupted them.


Exactly. MLB and the NBA expanded into Canada for the same reasons.

We can have both. If the CFL has 12-14 team if Toronto NFL comes then it will be a moot point because a 14 team league will not shut down.

[dennis1]

The Sun thing was harsh. Then again they have never said anything good about anyone.

[Acajack]

Unlike Canada, Mexico has no incumbent domestic football league. Mexico has 110 million people and is prime virgin territory for the NFL. It's a relatively new sport for Mexicans with no teams to satisfy the demand. An NFL game in 1994 drew 112,376 people in Mexico City. Toronto only managed 45,000 paying fans to Skydome and they had to scramble to fill the empty seats with freebies.

Canada is much smaller, and putting a team in Toronto doesn't expand the pie much for the NFL. It may even shrink it. Losing pro football teams right across Canada (a distinct possibility) to gain one NFL team in Toronto does not benefit the NFL.

If this transpired, gridiron would be reduced to a team in Toronto and the rest of the nation with nothing but college/high school teams. The sport of football will go into severe decline nationally. That's not in the interests of the NFL neither will it make them richer.

Look at basketball. The basketball market in Canada is basically Toronto due to the NBA and Nova Scotia due to its historical cultural importance there. Nova Scotians are into their own local teams though. It's not Raptor or NBA territory. Likewise, Manitoba isn't going to turn around and become a supporter of a Toronto NFL team if they lose the Bombers.

Mexico offers far better optics, a far larger market, fewer headaches, and more money than Toronto can. Really, that's what expansion to Canada could mean: one team in Toronto with the rest of the nation paying possibly a very high price for the arrival of that one team.

I doubt people in Montreal, Edmonton, Regina, etc. will be too enamoured with the NFL if they lose their teams over NFL expansion to Toronto. The NFL is better off in Mexico and/or expansion in their own country. There's little to no upside in the NFL putting a team in Toronto. This isn't basketball or baseball where there was no incumbent domestic league already in existence.

I can't dispute that Mexico offers a bigger, new potential market to the NFL than Canada does.

What I find hard to believe is that there are already more NFL fans in sheer numbers in Mexico than in Canada.

It would be interesting to walk into a sports bar in Monterrey or Puebla and see if Marshall Faulk and Peyton Manning are household names to the good old boys hanging out there. I am pretty sure they are in Kitchener and Saskatoon.

[Acajack]

I was looking up some numbers for fun and the NFL does have a lot of room to grow in Canada.

For example, the average viewership for an NFL game on TV in the States is 17 or 18 million. In Canada, it varies between 400,000 and 750,000. If Canadians watched in similar numbers to Americans, Canadian NFL viewership would be around 1.6 million.

Interesting also is the fact that on average 15% of all households are tuned to NFL games in metros with NFL clubs. In markets without NFL clubs it generally drops to the 7 or 8% range.

One of the largest markets in the US, Los Angeles, is in the 7-8% ratings range for NFL broadcasts. This is about that same % of households that tune in to NFL broadcasts in southern Ontario.

So in theory at least, the NFL might double its TV ratings in southern Ontario if it had a team in Toronto.

But I don't think the NFL in Toronto would do much for the league in the rest of the country outside a few hundred km radius of Toronto. If anything, it might cast it in a negative light as others have said.

[dennis1]

any news for hamilton

[Migs]

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/columnists/bill_lankhof/2010/08/17/15045881.html#/sports/columnists/bill_lankhof/2010/08/17/pf-15045881.html



The Toronto Sun says Hamilton is Loserville. Thoughts?
Best article I've read in awhile! I don't think people outside of Hamilton understand how much this whole fiasco is hurting their city.

[Jon D]

Best article I've read in awhile! I don't think people outside of Hamilton understand how much this whole fiasco is hurting their city.

Luckily the Toronto Sun isn't exactly the first place Torontonians go to find their news. As you've seen previously on this forum, there have been favourable articles towards the west harbour stadium in the Globe and Mail and Toronto Star. I think these papers hold a little bit more credibility with the educated population. Your first clue could be the absence of the "sunshine girl".

Yes, there are people out there who's perception of Hamilton as a city has worsened because of this mess. But there are also others outside of the city who now see this place as a community with VERY strong values. A city that can see the bigger picture. A city that actually wants to move forward. If you use a sports team to define your city, then what happens when they go through a losing streak? The good thing about architecture and city-building is it when it's done right, it'll stay beautiful for ages. I think it will be easy for many people to see that the "clowns" at city hall were thinking outside the box this time, reaching for something a little more than Hamilton's status quo.

It will be interesting to wait a little while and see if the old saying "there's no such thing as bad publicity" will hold true here. Hamilton might not appear very inviting to sports teams, but perhaps the opposite is true for developers and investors.

[Migs]

Yes, there are people out there who's perception of Hamilton as a city has worsened because of this mess. But there are also others outside of the city who now see this place as a community with VERY strong values. A city that can see the bigger picture. A city that actually wants to move forward. If you use a sports team to define your city, then what happens when they go through a losing streak? The good thing about architecture and city-building is it when it's done right, it'll stay beautiful for ages. I think it will be easy for many people to see that the "clowns" at city hall were thinking outside the box this time, reaching for something a little more than Hamilton's status quo.

It will be interesting to wait a little while and see if the old saying "there's no such thing as bad publicity" will hold true here. Hamilton might not appear very inviting to sports teams, but perhaps the opposite is true for developers and investors.
:haha: Are there talking Lions and yellow brick roads in your world too? Give me a break!

......nobody is saying that pro-sports teams make a city, but they are a very large branch on the tree. When many people think of New York, they think of the Yankees, when many people think of Toronto, they think of the Leafs, when many people think of Dallas, they think of the Cowboys, when many people think of Manchester, they think of Man United, sorry but that is a fact. What your city council is doing is approving a small stadium in an area that does nothing for its legacy which is about the only thing that gives Hamilton an identity to those outside your city limits. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its not a eagle. From what I've read online, Hamilton is known for self-distructive issues such as this. And speaking for many people I know here in Saskatchewan, Hamilton is now off the list of cities we want to visit.

[dennis1]

:haha: Are there talking Lions and yellow brick roads in your world too? Give me a break!

......nobody is saying that pro-sports teams make a city, but they are a very large branch on the tree. When many people think of New York, they think of the Yankees, when many people think of Toronto, they think of the Leafs, when many people think of Dallas, they think of the Cowboys, when many people think of Manchester, they think of Man United, sorry but that is a fact. What your city council is doing is approving a small stadium in an area that does nothing for its legacy which is about the only thing that gives Hamilton an identity to those outside your city limits. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its not a eagle. From what I've read online, Hamilton is known for self-distructive issues such as this. And speaking for many people I know here in Saskatchewan, Hamilton is now off the list of cities we want to visit.

Listen I agree, but many don't care in the long run. The majority of people in the world don't care about sports.

[dennis1]

Migs let me ask you:


Let's say we cave and go east mountain. Then what? We have a places to grow plan defined by the provincial government. Other places will demand to sprawl. If the city of Hamilton breaks the rules why can York Region? This has bigger implications than just sports

[Berklon]

And speaking for many people I know here in Saskatchewan, Hamilton is now off the list of cities we want to visit.

If watching a Ticat game in Hamilton is your main reason for visiting the city, and the team is no longer here - then it makes perfect sense to stop visiting.

But if your reason is simply due to how the city has handled this stadium debacle - then I find that extremely lame and laughable. If everyone used that sort of reasoning to avoid visiting another city, then no-one would ever venture outside their own city limits.

[SteelTown]

Migs let me ask you:


Let's say we cave and go east mountain. Then what? We have a places to grow plan defined by the provincial government. Other places will demand to sprawl. If the city of Hamilton breaks the rules why can York Region? This has bigger implications than just sports

Won't happen. Bob Young killed the East Mountain site.

[dennis1]

Ok so are we going to ancaster now?

[dennis1]

If watching a Ticat game in Hamilton is your main reason for visiting the city, and the team is no longer here - then it makes perfect sense to stop visiting.

But if your reason is simply due to how the city has handled this stadium debacle - then I find that extremely lame and laughable. If everyone used that sort of reasoning to avoid visiting another city, then no-one would ever venture outside their own city limits.

No one would ever live in a city period.

[SteelTown]

Ok so are we going to ancaster now?

Ah? Council voted twice for West Harbour now.

[Berklon]

Ah? Council voted twice for West Harbour now.

I think he's questioning how Bob Young killed the EM site... as am I. I don't quite understand what you meant by that.

[Jon D]

:......nobody is saying that pro-sports teams make a city, but they are a very large branch on the tree. When many people think of New York, they think of the Yankees, when many people think of Toronto, they think of the Leafs, when many people think of Dallas, they think of the Cowboys, when many people think of Manchester, they think of Man United, sorry but that is a fact. What your city council is doing is approving a small stadium in an area that does nothing for its legacy which is about the only thing that gives Hamilton an identity to those outside your city limits. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its not a eagle. From what I've read online, Hamilton is known for self-distructive issues such as this. And speaking for many people I know here in Saskatchewan, Hamilton is now off the list of cities we want to visit.

If pro sports teams are indeed so vital to a city's identity, then you surely can appreciate the precarious situation that Hamilton city council was put in. On the one hand, they risked losing the city's "identity...". The other option, the one which would keep the cats in Hamilton, was a giant middle finger to all the downtown residents, a stubbornly blind leap away from 21st century logic, and apparently was worse off economically then the west harbour location. I think the leaders of this city deserve a little respect. This shouldn't be a reason you choose not to vist Hamilton. Heck at the end of all this we might end up with a kick-ass velodrome. Visit us to come take a few laps around that sucker.

[mattgrande]

I was trying to find the list of 10 stadium sites proposed by the Ti-Cats, but couldn't. Anyone know where that is?

[markbarbera]

Jon D the 'precarious situation' the city finds itself in is of its own doing. This is what happens when you plan to build on a site that is not economically viable for the intended tenant.

The city had ample opportunity to select an alternative sight in the lower city but vested interest in the WH land saw the engineering of a comparison of a weak location (WH) against an obviously weaker location (EM). Remember it was the city and Fenn that presented EM, not the Ticats. The city, instead of conducting a fair comparison against a site from the Ticat's list, instead encouraged a debate that would exploit traditional urban/suburban divisions. There was never any genuine intention on Eisenberger's part to resolve the impasse, it was all a dog and pony show.

The end result is this city is going to lose out big time on several fronts. We are losing the Ticats, who are a source of 25% of this city's overall entertainment revenue stream. That is a significant loss. Beyond that there is the charitable works conducted by the Ticats in this community that has been put at risk. And the cost for the loss in civic identity and pride is immeasurable.

We are also at risk of losing any kind of funding from Pan Am for any stadium on the waterfront. Even if in the unlikely event funding still goes through, the city will be saddled with a financially unsound stadium.

This is likely to go down in the record books as the worst decision ever made by city council in the history of Hamilton.

[markbarbera]

Ah? Council voted twice for West Harbour now.

Move it or lose it.


Where, Oh Where, Will The Tiger-Cats Go?
Kyle W. Brown, Bleacher Report
August 16, 2010

Last week, Hamilton Tiger-Cats owner Bob Young stated that his franchise were backing out of stadium talks with the City of Hamilton, and that if the city did not listen to the Ti-Cats input on which location to choose, he would move the team out.

Well, the city didn't listen. And Young hasn't backed down. Some are saying that it's just a bluff, but history has had a way of reminding us that despite our loyalty to sports franchises, they are still, nevertheless, a business, and that business could leave if things aren't working out (see Baltimore Colts overnight move to Indianapolis).

With that in mind, there has been a lot of speculation as to where the Tiger-Cats may move to. Here are the cities that you are talking about.

Quebec City, Quebec

The city of Quebec has been trying to get a CFL franchise for years, and the city has always been synonymous with CFL expansion. The Universite Laval already have a stadium which can seat up to 18,000 in the city, so minor expansion is necessary but very doable. The city's love and dedication to the Rouge et Or shows how passionate this city is about football, and local teams. They have been without a pro sports team since the Nordiques left, and with a proud city it's obvious a CFL team would flourish in Quebec.

Moncton, New Brunswick

Moncton's big sell is, of course, its brand new stadium. Not even a year old, Moncton Stadium seats up to 20,000 and played host to Scotiabank Touchdown Atlantic this past year, for a game between the Argos and Eskimos, which soldout in just 32 hours. An additional 5,000 seats would be needed, but there appears to be lots of room for the stadium to expand. The downfall for the city is its population. With a city population under 70,000 and a metro population of just 126,424, Moncton would be the smallest city in the league. While some say fans would travel from Saint John and even as far as Halifax, it would be a bit of a gamble from the league to make sure the city is big enough to support a pro football team.

Halifax, Nova Scotia

Halifax is the exact opposite of Moncton in terms of Atlantic relocation. Despite a much larger population, the city is lacking an appropriate stadium. The main stadium in talk is St. Mary's University's Huskies Stadium, which has permanent seating of just 4,000, but can be expanded to 11,000. Still, that leaves a need for about 14,000 more seats before it is CFL acceptable. Regardless, Halifax has also proven itself by hosting the 2005 edition of Touchdown Atlantic, which was also a sell-out. Fans already have missed out on one franchise, when the city had been given a team which was supposed to come into play in 1984 but folded. Could the fans get a second-chance if the CFL leaves Hamilton?

Milton, Ontario

Now for this one, you may think that I'm talking crazy. Well don't my friends, this is a city that was named by Young himself during the Ti-Cats game this weekend. While Milton has a population of just 72,500, the city has seen tremendous growth in the past decade and looks as though it will continue to do so. It was awarded its first professional sports team this past year, with the inaugural year of Milltown F.C. in the Canadian Soccer League. The key to Milton's success would be its proximity to many areas in the GTA, such as Mississauga (pop. 706,000), Burlington (pop. 164,000), Oakville (pop. 165,000), Guelph (pop. 115,000) and even Hamilton, meaning Ti-Cats fans could still support their team, they'd just have to drive an hour to do so. Of course, there is no stadium in Milton, so one being ready by 2012 is unlikely, meaning that this expansion, which could tap the western Toronto market, may not be feasible.

London, Ontario

Another city in southern Ontario, London's bid is similar to Quebec City's. The city boasts a metro population of about 400,000, and already has a well-built football community and stadium thanks to the local university team, the Western Mustangs. Their home, TD Waterhouse Stadium, can seat up to 15,000, as well as shows that their is some corporate support in the city with the naming rights being bought by a large Canadian bank. Expansion to the current stadium is necessary, but possible, and Young could keep some of his fans if the team moved to London. While it's about an hour and a half drive to London from Hamilton, some fans may just do it, and it's also a drive of about the same length from Windsor, another team who has spoken of interest in the CFL in the past.

Saskatoon, Saskatchewan

Saskatoon is the biggest city in the province, and the province is one of the most football-crazy in Canada. The Rider Nation has proven that the province love its teams, but could also be the reason that Saskatoon isn't viable for an expansion team. While the only stadium possible to expand is the up-to 12,394 capacity Griffiths Stadium, there is lots of room to expand the stadium, should a team be granted. As noted, however, the already strong fanbase of the Riders may actually scare away Young and his group. With the city already proud and true fans of one franchise, there is no guarantee that they would change their loyalty to a new team, meaning I can't see Young taking his team to the Prairies.

Ottawa, Ontario

A lot of people are talking about moving the team to Ottawa, but this just isn't a realistic plan. The city has already been awarded an expansion team for the 2013 season, and already have an ownership group which has been approved by city council, while stadium talks are ongoing. What this means is that the current ownership group won't be abolished so that Young can come in. The city's come too far with Jeff Hunt and his group to just bail and start all over again with Young, so you can count the National Capital region out for a move.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/437429-where-oh-where-will-the-tiger-cats-go


Since that article was published, you can add Oshawa to the list of potential suitors.

[SteelTown]

I was trying to find the list of 10 stadium sites proposed by the Ti-Cats, but couldn't. Anyone know where that is?

Ti Cats aren't telling.

[BCTed]

Move it or lose it.



Since that article was published, you can add Oshawa to the list of potential suitors.

The Bleacher Report is just a blog. Blah blah blah to pretty much the whole thing. The Oshawa thing comes from some guy who is running for city council --- there is zero to it. It may as well have come from the guy who runs the general store in Iqaluit.

[markbarbera]

Ti Cats aren't telling.

Ask Mayor Fred. He knows. He was presented the list during the 'facilitation' by Fenn.

[SteelTown]

Ask Mayor Fred. He knows. He was presented the list during the 'facilitation' by Fenn.

Why should Mayor Fred tell? It's the Ti Cats own proposed sites.

[markbarbera]

Why should Mayor Fred tell? It's the Ti Cats own proposed sites.

My point is, it is not a big secret. There is a list of ten different proposed sites that the Ticats made which were all rejected by the city. The parties that needed to know the list know what's on the list.

Most likely the list has not been made public knowledge so to deter property speculation. This city is rampant with speculators who snatch up property and hold onto it to make a quick buck on the flip - just look at all the numbered properties that have held onto the WH properties - we still don't know who they are, but they obviously hold influence over council.