Tim Hortons Field | 40m | ? | Complete

[bigguy1231]

So how much of a downtown revitalization catalyst will it be if we end up with a 15000 seat empty stadium next to the CN freight yard and the Ticats playing in a stadium in Burlington?

Well maybe Bob Young should let the city know how much he is willing to invest instead of being coy about it. Indicating the amount he and his investors are willing to invest in the stadium, especially if it is a signifigant percentage of the total cost, would give him more of a say in exactly where it is going to be built.

As for it being built beside the rail yards in Hamilton, the location being bandied about in Burlington is also near the rail yard alongside the 403.

[realcity]

How much of an impossibility is that scenario?

I wouldn't say high, but I think this city is capable of messing anything up

[thistleclub]

The Cats tell the city they desperately need a new stadium. They are in luck. The city, as it happens, intends to build a stadium. The club's management could have immersed themselves in the process or trusted that the city would make an informed choice. They opted for the latter, choosing instead to play Monday morning quarterback. But they still have choices to make: Rally $50 million in support of the Pan Am Stadium or develop their own 25,000-seat stadium at the site of their choosing for $170 million. Or Door #3. They've already been reluctant to discuss project funding in much detail, so it's possible that they'll exercise the classic don't-call-it-extortion-but-we'd-like-you-to-pick-up-the-tab-or-we're-outta-here clause.

[realcity]

More good news about this location
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/739407
--------------------------

City offers residents $1,500
Payment only if stadium site owners allow ground tests
March 18, 2010
THE HAMILTON SPECTATOR
(Mar 18, 2010)
Property owners at the Pan Am stadium site are being offered $1,500 good-faith payments and relocation help as the city begins environmental testing.

The owners in the west harbour area receive the payment when they sign an agreement to allow testing on their property.

No figures were set for relocation assistance as the city prepares to purchase the properties to pave the way for a stadium.

City spokesperson David Adames said the measures are not a response to resident complaints but have been in place as part of the testing program and land acquisition plan.

"We are trying to be sensitive and fair to property owners as we begin the process," said Adames, who is executive director of Tourism Hamilton.

The area's councillor, Bob Bratina, has told residents they should consider consulting lawyers.

He is worried testing could hurt property values if there is significant soil contamination discovered.

Adames stressed findings would not affect the fair market value the city is offering residents. He said testing is being done ahead of buying property to assure construction can begin as quickly as possible.

He added it is not being done to determine whether the stadium would go in the west harbour as city council has already approved the location.

But Adames noted if any dramatic findings were unearthed, that would be reported to council. Council could then reconsider the site.

The city is moving ahead with plans for the stadium while the prime tenant, the CFL's Tiger-Cats, say they can't yet make a business case for moving there.
-----------------

you realize if the Cats don't move in and pay to make it 30,000 seats, it's an empty 15,000 stadium after PanAm.

So Yes they better listen to the Cats and should've asked where they want the stadium since it's the Tiger Cat's home.

So if they discover these homes are toxic and the City decides on Plan B, these homeowners are totally screwed. Unable to sell their house. Bratina offered good advice. What is exactly 'market value' $ for a house on toxic soil?

[thistleclub]

The area's councillor, Bob Bratina, has told residents they should consider consulting lawyers.

He is worried testing could hurt property values if there is significant soil contamination discovered.

Yeah, this is kind of a rotten deal however you slice it. Pass the test, lose your home. Fail the test, keep a home that's as good as worthless. Even if your home wasn't tested, but neighbouring homes were found to be on toxic land, they're tainted by association. But would the city be more compassionate just to let homeowners live on contaminated land, in the name of real estate valuation? I think that the upshot may well be that these folks get relocated regardless of whether the city builds a stadium on the West Harbour site.

As for the Cats, I would argue that they've got to set aside the entitlement issues and start acting like engaged citizens. It's true that the city needs a major tenant to make a 15,000-seat stadium viable. It's also true that the Cats are in no position to build the stadium of their dreams all on their own. The laissez-faire approach they've adopted so far is amateurish and might stem from the mindset that comes from eight decades as virtually the sole tenant of Ivor Wynne: They forget that they're renters. Even without dropping "millions or tens of millions," they could have bankrolled self-interested site studies and put forward some concrete options. (The closest thing to that level of professionalism is the "shadow coup," and the Cats camp is disavowing association with anything of the sort.) Like I've said before, the team has been watching Ivor Wynne rust out around them for the last decade. It's nice that the lightbulb finally came on. Bob Young's stand four months ago – "I'm OK with any site, as long as it makes sense economically over the long term" (http://www.thespec.com/article/671988) – is characteristically inoffensive but also Eisenbergian in its vagueness. If they're going to get hard-nosed about the bottom line, they need to do better.

[realcity]

Ti-Cats are a business. And are acting like a business. If the business case can't be made in Hamilton. They could very well relocate to Halifax, London, Halton/Peel, K/W.

[hamiltonguy]

Ti-Cats are a business. And are acting like a business. If the business case can't be made in Hamilton. They could very well relocate to Halifax, London, Halton/Peel, K/W.

If they can't make it in Hamilton OR the Hamilton area, they aren't going to make it anywhere else. Their fan base is here.

[realcity]

Of course it's impossible to make a fan base in another city... have you been to Halifax when they have a national or world event. The entire city/province goes mad. I think CFL should put an eastern team there.

[thistleclub]

They're a business, yes. A hand-to-mouth, hope-the-power-stays-on one.

Businesses act in any number of ways, including ways that lead to bankruptcy (eg: most CFL franchises at some point or other during the last 30 years). Any business that relies to such an extent on hand-outs generally finds that it's productive to work with their benefactors to make helping as easy as possible, out of self-interest. Not the Tiger-Cats. Hamilton is sinking $60 million of its Future Fund into this hot mess, and for months the team has been acting like civic dialogue is beneath them. The road to a new stadium isn't likely to get any smoother if they try to build in another region.

And yes, of course the team can relocate anywhere they choose. Baltimore, maybe. (Kidding.) Former Cats owner David Braley lives in Burlington, as does the family of former Cats owner Michael G. DeGroote, as does Ron Joyce and any number of local high rollers. Maybe they'll ante up the $60 million to build in Aldershot. It'd allow us to direct Hamilton's $60 million into green energy, as Herman Turkstra has pitched, or downtown development stimulus, the hoped-for spin-off of the new stadium build.

Even with a more ideal location, the Cats will almost certainly face a different reality in a new facility. Braley's on record as saying that the Argos need 25,000 paying fans a game to pay the bills. The same might apply to the Cats in a new stadium, when their overhead changes dramatically. The team averaged around 22,500 per home game in 2009 (21,500 if you factor out the blue chip Labour Day classic). So a holding pattern isn't an option. Neither is financial success out of the question, even in the CFL. The Jarvis Street braintrust has surely noticed that Regina is roughly the size of Burlington and that the Roughriders have turned a $1.6 million profit two years running.

[thistleclub]

Harbouring doubts (http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/740059)
Access and visibility limited at stadium site, say Ticats partner and adviser

John Kernaghan
The Hamilton Spectator
(Mar 19, 2010)

The Tiger-Cats' major partner and senior adviser say the west harbour stadium site has limitations to overcome as a future home for the football club.

Andy Day of Primus and George Schott of Osmington Inc. (http://www.osmington.com/), say the city's chosen site near Bay and Barton streets suffers from access and visibility problems.

In other words, not enough people could get to it by car or drive by it to justify the Tiger-Cats committing a major investment in a larger stadium than the $102-million, 15,000-seat facility required for track and field at the 2015 Pan Am Games.

Ticat president Scott Mitchell has said he can't yet make a compelling business case for the west harbour site.

Primus is the Ticat game-day official presenter and is a candidate to pay for naming rights at a stadium, said CEO Day.

The naming-rights fee would form part of the Canadian Football League club's contribution to a larger stadium.

But Day explained the value of naming rights is tied directly to how many people can view the prominent name on a stadium's exterior.

"The prospect of having our name on the home of the Tiger-Cats excites us," said Day, a Hamilton native.

But what the telecommunications company would contribute declines as the number of people who see the Primus name drops.

Day said he has not done precise math on the west harbour or any alternate sites, but his company does not have the advertising budget of competitors such as Bell or Rogers and must be sure it gets a good return on naming-rights fees.

Schott, CEO of the property developer Osmington Inc., said he advised the Tiger-Cats that the west harbour site was limited because it wouldn't attract a substantial fee for naming rights.

Osmington co-owns Eastgate Square and Centre Mall with the Canadian Pension Plan investment board and Schott, who grew up in the city's east end, said the company has helped develop other sports facilities.

The Toronto-based company is part of a private-equity group which built the $133-million MTS Centre (http://www.mtscentre.ca/overview/), a hockey arena in Winnipeg.

Schott said he has looked at the six sites the city once offered as a short list as well as the Lafarge slag operation on Windermere Road.

He noted it offered high visibility (http://tinyurl.com/yh6h7o3) due to being close to the Queen Elizabeth Way.

City Councillor Bernie Morelli considers it the primary Plan B site if the west harbour plan doesn't work out.

City spokesperson David Adames said negotiations around the west harbour location are in the early stages and pointed out the city has received feelers from potential investors at the site.

Meantime, the CEO of the Pan Am host corporation is hopeful of a solution.

"I trust the parties will get around a table and figure it out," Ian Troop said.

He noted he won't be at that table but is talking to all the parties as site discussions carry forward.

Toronto 2015 chairperson Roger Garland noted "we're always near the table" for all parts of the Games plan. But he stressed officials for the Pan Am host company don't want to interfere with local discussions on venues.

The pair are also keeping an eye on Burlington's Games facility, a $23-million soccer centre that moved from Sherwood Forest to a site southeast of Kerns Road and Highway 5.

It is on hold as the city appeals a Niagara Escarpment Commission decision that found it an unsuitable use at that site.

"They are working it through and we'd like them to see it through," said Troop.


- - - -

As long as we're looking at models to emulate, MTS Centre was 70% private-funded. (http://www.mtscentre.ca/overview/funding.php) And it's in downtown Winnipeg (it's basically the size of Copps), connected to hotels, retail, office towers, parking and 40+ transit routes.

On the plus side, a Windermere Road does connect to Van Wagners via the Woodward underpass, and a Lafarge build might provide incentive to fix Burlington Street in order to get it off the list of the province's worst roads.

[thistleclub]

Horwath nixed site as councillor (http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/740055)

Carmela Fragomeni
The Hamilton Spectator
(Mar 19, 2010)

Horwath says site is not 'economically feasible at this point.'

Ontario NDP Leader Andrea Horwath disagrees with building a stadium near the west harbour.

She was against it while on city council and she's still not crazy about the proposed Pan Am Games stadium site in her riding.

Last month council finalized an area around the former Rheem Canada plant on Barton Street West as the site for the stadium, warm-up track and velodrome.

Horwath told a Spectator editorial board meeting Wednesday that she has expressed concerns to Mayor Fred Eisenberger and David Adames, head of the city's Pan Am working group. But she also made it clear to them that she is "very respectful" of the city's decision to put the stadium there since she is no longer on council and not privy to all the reasons.

"I am a west harbour fan," said Horwath, adding that while on council there was an issue about where to build a stadium to replace Ivor Wynne.

She said the west harbour was considered and studied and after a lengthy planning process, the resulting secondary development plan for the west harbour did not support a stadium.

"And I support the secondary plan."

One concern is that the lands are contaminated and will take a lot of money to clean up, she said.

"It's not economically feasible at this point."

But with talk of GO Transit and a new Via station on James Street North and with plans for light rail or mass transit for the city, the feasibility of a cleanup could improve, she said. If so, any development should be residential, she said.

[SteelTown]

Ticats’ plan for stadium coming in a month
Ticat report to pit city-building against business interests

BY ANDREW DRESCHEL

Brace yourself. The simmering Pan Am stadium debate will soon be reaching the boiling point.

The million-dollar question of how much money the Tiger-Cats are willing to kick in for the west harbour site will be answered in about a month.

That’s when the CFL club discloses its business plan to the city.

And councillors who voted for the location won’t likely be jumping for joy at the results.

Though he refuses to say it directly before the report is released, Ticat president Scott Mitchell is signalling the site doesn’t work for the football club or its corporate partners.

That will affect how much money they bring to the table, which in turn will fluster efforts to raise enough private dollars to upgrade the stadium to 25,000 seats from 15,000 seats.

Mitchell says the report will deliver a specific vision of what the team can contribute and what the business case is for the Ticats operating in the west harbour
.
“My personal enthusiasm is there in terms of the theoretical, but when we drill down to the numbers, we’re running into some serious challenges,” Mitchell says.

The report will also include input from the team’s private-sector partners, possibly a specific alternative site, and a fan survey that, according to Mitchell, stresses the importance of on-site parking and easy access, two features missing from the west harbour.

Mitchell says the Ticats will contribute to a Hamilton stadium, no matter where it’s located. The question is to what extent.

“The only reason a stadium would ever be built in the west harbour is if it has an anchoring tenant and that would have to be the Tiger-Cats, so inevitably we’d have at minimum a lease, which means we would be contributing to the stadium.”

In other words, the worst-case scenario is the Ticats might contribute nothing but rent payments if the city forges ahead with the west harbour plan.

That’s a far cry from Ticat owner Bob Young’s initial promise of millions.

But Mitchell insists Young’s vague commitment was predicated on the right conditions. Presumably, the business plan will formally spell out what those are and why they’re lacking in the west harbour.

For months, the Ticats have been sending out trial balloons hinting the site picked by council won’t work in terms of generating enough revenue to make the stadium or the team financially sustainable.

Their business plan will raise the stakes in a high-level chess game pitting council’s “city-building” vision against private-sector interests that feel the wrong site has been chosen, albeit for the right reasons of wanting to clean up a brownfield and sparking transit and downtown development.

Once the Ticats plainly state their case, the west harbour will be facing two hurdles — unknown remediation costs and a reluctant tenant with marshalled arguments and business allies on its side.

Mitchell stresses the Ticats and city have a good relationship and will work together to find a solution to replace Ivor Wynne Stadium in time for the 2015 Pan Am Games.

He says the city is not threatening to build a smaller stadium that doesn’t suit the team’s needs. And the team isn’t threatening to move if it doesn’t get what it wants.

But he says nobody should harbour the illusion that Young is interested in owning a team that continues to lose millions of dollars.

“He’s not. Let’s get that on the record. He’s not.” How much is Young losing? “I’m not going to get into that,” Mitchell says. “That’s Bob’s personal finances. But it’s not making any money now by any stretch. It’s got a long way to go. We’re losing millions of dollars.”

And, Mitchell says, the Ticats do not want to go to a stadium where they know they’re going to lose millions more.

[realcity]

West Harbour supporters are really getting quiet now.

[hamiltonguy]

Of course it's impossible to make a fan base in another city... have you been to Halifax when they have a national or world event. The entire city/province goes mad. I think CFL should put an eastern team there.

Ideally I would like to see Winnipeg move back to the western div and put a team back in Ottawa and a new one in Halifax for eastern div. Ron Joyce loves Halifax maybe he'd buy an expansion team. Mr Brailey give him a call.

What I'm saying is, IF the current team management can't make it work in a city where they have a loyal fan base and part of a huge region, they likely can't make it work in Halifax. That's not to say I don't think someone else could.

[hamiltonguy]

Harbouring doubts (http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/740059)
Access and visibility limited at stadium site, say Ticats partner and adviser

John Kernaghan
The Hamilton Spectator
(Mar 19, 2010)

The Tiger-Cats' major partner and senior adviser say the west harbour stadium site has limitations to overcome as a future home for the football club.

Andy Day of Primus and George Schott of Osmington Inc. (http://www.osmington.com/), say the city's chosen site near Bay and Barton streets suffers from access and visibility problems.

In other words, not enough people could get to it by car or drive by it to justify the Tiger-Cats committing a major investment in a larger stadium than the $102-million, 15,000-seat facility required for track and field at the 2015 Pan Am Games.

Ticat president Scott Mitchell has said he can't yet make a compelling business case for the west harbour site.

Primus is the Ticat game-day official presenter and is a candidate to pay for naming rights at a stadium, said CEO Day.

The naming-rights fee would form part of the Canadian Football League club's contribution to a larger stadium.

But Day explained the value of naming rights is tied directly to how many people can view the prominent name on a stadium's exterior.

"The prospect of having our name on the home of the Tiger-Cats excites us," said Day, a Hamilton native.

But what the telecommunications company would contribute declines as the number of people who see the Primus name drops.

Day said he has not done precise math on the west harbour or any alternate sites, but his company does not have the advertising budget of competitors such as Bell or Rogers and must be sure it gets a good return on naming-rights fees.

Schott, CEO of the property developer Osmington Inc., said he advised the Tiger-Cats that the west harbour site was limited because it wouldn't attract a substantial fee for naming rights.

Osmington co-owns Eastgate Square and Centre Mall with the Canadian Pension Plan investment board and Schott, who grew up in the city's east end, said the company has helped develop other sports facilities.

The Toronto-based company is part of a private-equity group which built the $133-million MTS Centre (http://www.mtscentre.ca/overview/), a hockey arena in Winnipeg.

Schott said he has looked at the six sites the city once offered as a short list as well as the Lafarge slag operation on Windermere Road.

He noted it offered high visibility (http://tinyurl.com/yh6h7o3) due to being close to the Queen Elizabeth Way.

City Councillor Bernie Morelli considers it the primary Plan B site if the west harbour plan doesn't work out.

City spokesperson David Adames said negotiations around the west harbour location are in the early stages and pointed out the city has received feelers from potential investors at the site.

Meantime, the CEO of the Pan Am host corporation is hopeful of a solution.

"I trust the parties will get around a table and figure it out," Ian Troop said.

He noted he won't be at that table but is talking to all the parties as site discussions carry forward.

Toronto 2015 chairperson Roger Garland noted "we're always near the table" for all parts of the Games plan. But he stressed officials for the Pan Am host company don't want to interfere with local discussions on venues.

The pair are also keeping an eye on Burlington's Games facility, a $23-million soccer centre that moved from Sherwood Forest to a site southeast of Kerns Road and Highway 5.

It is on hold as the city appeals a Niagara Escarpment Commission decision that found it an unsuitable use at that site.

"They are working it through and we'd like them to see it through," said Troop.


- - - -

As long as we're looking at models to emulate, MTS Centre was 70% private-funded. (http://www.mtscentre.ca/overview/funding.php) And it's in downtown Winnipeg (it's basically the size of Copps), connected to hotels, retail, office towers, parking and 40+ transit routes.

On the plus side, a Windermere Road does connect to Van Wagners via the Woodward underpass, and a Lafarge build might provide incentive to fix Burlington Street in order to get it off the list of the province's worst roads.

I really don't think there is a worse site for the stadium than sitting right next to the factories. Even the airport is better.

[hamiltonguy]

They're a business, yes. A hand-to-mouth, hope-the-power-stays-on one.

Businesses act in any number of ways, including ways that lead to bankruptcy (eg: most CFL franchises at some point or other during the last 30 years). Any business that relies to such an extent on hand-outs generally finds that it's productive to work with their benefactors to make helping as easy as possible, out of self-interest. Not the Tiger-Cats. Hamilton is sinking $60 million of its Future Fund into this hot mess, and for months the team has been acting like civic dialogue is beneath them. The road to a new stadium isn't likely to get any smoother if they try to build in another region.

And yes, of course the team can relocate anywhere they choose. Baltimore, maybe. (Kidding.) Former Cats owner David Braley lives in Burlington, as does the family of former Cats owner Michael G. DeGroote, as does Ron Joyce and any number of local high rollers. Maybe they'll ante up the $60 million to build in Aldershot. It'd allow us to direct Hamilton's $60 million into green energy, as Herman Turkstra has pitched, or downtown development stimulus, the hoped-for spin-off of the new stadium build.

Even with a more ideal location, the Cats will almost certainly face a different reality in a new facility. Braley's on record as saying that the Argos need 25,000 paying fans a game to pay the bills. The same might apply to the Cats in a new stadium, when their overhead changes dramatically. The team averaged around 22,500 per home game in 2009 (21,500 if you factor out the blue chip Labour Day classic). So a holding pattern isn't an option. Neither is financial success out of the question, even in the CFL. The Jarvis Street braintrust has surely noticed that Regina is roughly the size of Burlington and that the Roughriders have turned a $1.6 million profit two years running.

Toronto has the problem of filling the Rogers Centre. That is one thing the Cats won't have to deal with. But I agree the holding pattern isn't working. But its a myriad of factors. They've had a poor team lately, Ivor Wynne is a depressing place to be at, and to be quite frank they've done a poor job reaching out beyond their traditional fan base. That said they've made a lot of positive moves from when they've taken over.

[thistleclub]

When the Als trade up their stadium, the Cats will be strong contenders for worst attendance in the league. That kind of feel-good moment isn't going to stop the money from falling out the bottom of the bucket.

I'm happy to have a strong private sector plan come forward, although again I think the timing is half-assed. (And still the team is bringing naming rights to the table, as if they're the Primus Tiger-Cats.) If the project moves significantly outside of downtown, though, it arguably betrays part of the rationale for siphoning $60 million out of the Future Fund, namely moving toward goals like brownfield remediation and downtown renewal.

[mdsweet]

I suspect the Spec is really working hard to find more people who aren't on board with the West Harbour site, since I doubt Horvath came forward herself to say "Oh by the way, way back when I expressed concerns" etc.
With that said, I'm sick of hearing from every Johnny-come-lately on this issue. Very frustrating. If you were so bloody concerned with this one particular proposed location for the stadium, you should have said something before council voted. ("You" referring to any of the stakeholders involved) Its not like anyone was caught off guard by this issue. Or maybe they were simply caught off guard that council actually made a decision rather than postponing! Now all the dissenters are scrambling to get in the game that they thought was going to overtime.

[BrianE]

I don't know why Windermere Road keeps getting mentioned. I drive by there regularly when exiting onto Burlington St. It's digusting, you would have to pay me to sit a hot afternoon at that location without a breathing mask.

Not only that but this helpful link from Raisethehammer.org to the Hamilton Stacks Blog. (http://hamiltonstacks.blogspot.com/) Shows that area gets blasted like a shotgun on a regular basis by discharges from Stelco and Dofasco and a dozen other properties to the west of it

Could you imagine? Sitting there watching international athletes compete and start to feel something like rain hit the top of your head only to look up and its a black cloud of soot blowing off the coke piles.

Half the reason I like the West Harbour location is that we never ever get a strong wind out of the east. Whatever we do, this stadium has to be to the west or South of the Industrial area.

Prevailing Winds, people! heavy industry isn't going anywhere for a while!

[SteelTown]

Yea I know the pipe that's responsible for the black soot is literally right next to Windermere. You'd probably need to wash down the stadium once a week. Within a year the sign for the stadium would probably be covered in black.

From what I heard the city wants to buy the property and turn it into a park along with the Windermere Basin to create a green gateway. Think they've even begun the negotiation to buy the entire Lafarge site.

With regards to the residence of West Harbourfront I think it's best the city buy their property and they move elsewhere. It'll be better for their health. Try finding another deal where the city will pay for moving out your furniture. Seal up the entire site and do the brownfield work. Better for the environment and citizen's health.

[Gurnett71]

Could you imagine? Sitting there watching international athletes compete and start to feel something like rain hit the top of your head only to look up and its a black cloud of soot blowing off the coke piles.

Half the reason I like the West Harbour location is that we never ever get a strong wind out of the east. Whatever we do, this stadium has to be to the west or South of the Industrial area.

Prevailing Winds, people! heavy industry isn't going anywhere for a while!

+1:yes:

[bigguy1231]

The location has already been decided upon, the West Harbour.

The plan B location is a non starter. The Windemere location is not acceptable for previously mentioned pollution problems.

If the Ti Cats don't like the location, let them leave for greener pastures or build their own stadium. They have not indicated an amount they are willing to contribute so far, so as far as I am concerned they have no say in the process. Besides that, where were they a few months ago when council was making decisions on the location.

Business plans can be developed for any location, all it takes is a little imagination. I can envision the whole area being tranformed with new residential and commercial developements.

If the city goes ahead and builds a stadium with only 15,000 seats then they might as well not even bother. Anything less than 30,000 seats is a waste of money. Why build something that will be of no real use in the future. For me 30,000 is the minimum, I would prefer 40,000. If we are going to build it lets do it right and build for the future and not for the present.

[realcity]

To host the Grey Cup min. 30k seats

[emge]

I like West Harbour. I hope they don't allow the dissenting voices to push it to the so-called inevitable Airport location.

[BCTed]

If the city goes ahead and builds a stadium with only 15,000 seats then they might as well not even bother. Anything less than 30,000 seats is a waste of money. Why build something that will be of no real use in the future. For me 30,000 is the minimum, I would prefer 40,000. If we are going to build it lets do it right and build for the future and not for the present.

Agreed. I am also concerned that it will be built on too small a budget and the city will have to live with it for decades.

[drpgq]

I'm glad the Cats finally came forward with who their business partners objecting to the West Harbour site actually are. I figured it wasn't DeLuca roofing. I am skeptical that Primus has that much money to come up with major cash for naming rights, but I could be wrong.

[geoff's two cents]

I don't know why Windermere Road keeps getting mentioned. I drive by there regularly when exiting onto Burlington St. It's digusting, you would have to pay me to sit a hot afternoon at that location without a breathing mask.

Not only that but this helpful link from Raisethehammer.org to the Hamilton Stacks Blog. (http://hamiltonstacks.blogspot.com/) Shows that area gets blasted like a shotgun on a regular basis by discharges from Stelco and Dofasco and a dozen other properties to the west of it

Could you imagine? Sitting there watching international athletes compete and start to feel something like rain hit the top of your head only to look up and its a black cloud of soot blowing off the coke piles.

Half the reason I like the West Harbour location is that we never ever get a strong wind out of the east. Whatever we do, this stadium has to be to the west or South of the Industrial area.

Prevailing Winds, people! heavy industry isn't going anywhere for a while!

Thank you for mentioning this! I once made the mistake of going for a jog in the HAAA park during my time in the Hammer on a smog day. My performance was half of what it normally was, and I felt abnormally fatigued and even a little ill afterward. Somehow, the idea of exerting myself to tthe utmost athletically (or watching others do so) next to a smoke stack doesn't appeal to me. Then again, I'm an outsider; what do I know?:D

[adam]

A world class stadium attracts people from neighbouring areas and needs to be close to a highway. The only reasonable place to put a stadium in my mind is as close as possible to the 403. Any other location buried in the downtown away from a major route is going to be a bizarre experiment with unexpected results and side-effects.

If the stadium does get built so far away from the 403, it will be the perpetual reason that suburban councillors use to avoid turning any more downtown streets into 2-way pedestrian friendly areas in the future.

[bigguy1231]

A world class stadium attracts people from neighbouring areas and needs to be close to a highway. The only reasonable place to put a stadium in my mind is as close as possible to the 403. Any other location buried in the downtown away from a major route is going to be a bizarre experiment with unexpected results and side-effects.

If the stadium does get built so far away from the 403, it will be the perpetual reason that suburban councillors use to avoid turning any more downtown streets into 2-way pedestrian friendly areas in the future.


The West Harbour location has fairly good access to the 403 via York Blvd and to a lesser extent King St.

What many opposed to the West Harbour location fail to realize is that the city will improve the streets leading to the stadium for easier access to and from the East- West thoroughfares.

The whole arguement about access to the location is just a red herring. Transportation routes will be improved whether they be improvements to roads or better public transportation.

[hamiltonguy]

The West Harbour location has fairly good access to the 403 via York Blvd and to a lesser extent King St.

What many opposed to the West Harbour location fail to realize is that the city will improve the streets leading to the stadium for easier access to and from the East- West thoroughfares.

The whole arguement about access to the location is just a red herring. Transportation routes will be improved whether they be improvements to roads or better public transportation.

Also easy access to QEW via Burlington Street semi-expressway and Bay street.

[realcity]

Ivor Wynne also has easy access to QEW via Burlington Street semi-expressway. Plus Canon, Wilson, Barton and Main *semi-expressway*. And Ottawa, Gage and Sherman, for north/south access.

No one ever complains about getting to Ivor Wynne and parking. So I don't see how this location will have a problem with accessibility.

[realcity]

You know these home owners are screwed with the soil tests. For some $1500 is a lot of money, but compared to loss of house value, it pales. I hope they get some good lawyers. Before they agree to the soil test, they should have a contract that says, the house is worth X$ and if the stadium is not built here and the house drops in value *because it's revealed the land is toxic*, the City still owes them X$.

[crhayes]

I haven't heard the term eminent domain come up yet. If the City was serious, then why not just execute eminent domain before soil tests.

You know these home owners are screwed with the soil tests. For some $1500 is a lot of money, but compared to loss of house value, it pales. I hope they get some good lawyers. Before they agree to the soil test, they should have a contract that says, the house is worth X$ and if the stadium is not built here and the house drops in value *because it's revealed the land is toxic*, the City still owes them X$.

Of course the tests will reveal the land these houses sit on is toxic. If it's needs $37 million to clean the land across the street, what do you think? 50 feet away the house is sitting on a natural pure wellspring.?? duh.. Toxins don't know about property borders. Forget about it, this location will not happen, total epic FUBAR fail.

I don't understand why the city is jumping the gun on the West Harbour Location when the Tiger Cats haven't completed a business case or shown support for it yet. The TC's support is essential in this process. I have a feeling these home owners are going to get screwed over - The Ti Cats are not going to accept this location and the soil tests will have been done and revealed the land is contaminated.

I just hope if it pans out this way that the city will commit to buying the houses anyways, at least giving the owners the option of selling at a fair price.

[bigguy1231]

I don't understand why the city is jumping the gun on the West Harbour Location when the Tiger Cats haven't completed a business case or shown support for it yet. The TC's support is essential in this process. I have a feeling these home owners are going to get screwed over - The Ti Cats are not going to accept this location and the soil tests will have been done and revealed the land is contaminated.

I just hope if it pans out this way that the city will commit to buying the houses anyways, at least giving the owners the option of selling at a fair price.

The stadium is being built for the Pan Am games not the Ti Cats. I know they will be the primary tenant, but until they indicate how much money they may contribute they have no say in the process.

If the Ti Cats were so concerned about where the stadium was going to be built they should have got involved in the process back in the Fall when the discussions were taking place. The whole process is time sensitive, the city can't be sitting on their hands waiting for the Cats to decide what they want.

As for the homeowners, they don't have to let the city on their property to test.

Why would the city buy the properties, if they are found to be contaminated. Then the city would be responsible for the cleanup costs. The whole idea of testing is to determine if the area is contaminated so they can figure out what it is going to cost to clean it up. If it is going to cost too much they will look at alternate locations.

[crhayes]

The stadium is being built for the Pan Am games not the Ti Cats. I know they will be the primary tenant, but until they indicate how much money they may contribute they have no say in the process.

If the Ti Cats were so concerned about where the stadium was going to be built they should have got involved in the process back in the Fall when the discussions were taking place. The whole process is time sensitive, the city can't be sitting on their hands waiting for the Cats to decide what they want.

As for the homeowners, they don't have to let the city on their property to test.

Why would the city buy the properties, if they are found to be contaminated. Then the city would be responsible for the cleanup costs. The whole idea of testing is to determine if the area is contaminated so they can figure out what it is going to cost to clean it up. If it is going to cost too much they will look at alternate locations.

If the TC's aren't involved in this project what's the point? It's going to be a legacy project built for a 2 week (?) event and never used again? Great way to please the taxpayers...

And yes this is time sensitive, but we have approximately 4 more years to build it; there is ample time for a proper analysis and business case.

And yes the residents have the option of letting the city test their soil, but let's face it, $1500 for someone in that neighbourhood is likely a significant amount of money, how many people are not going to consider it? Not only that, but it only takes one positive test for contamination to seriously diminish the value of the entire neighbourhood. You honestly don't think one person will allow the test?

Why should the city be responsible? I guess that's my socialist attitude, not thinking it's fair those people should get stuck with a worthless piece of property.

[bigguy1231]

If the TC's aren't involved in this project what's the point? It's going to be a legacy project built for a 2 week (?) event and never used again? Great way to please the taxpayers...

And yes this is time sensitive, but we have approximately 4 more years to build it; there is ample time for a proper analysis and business case.

And yes the residents have the option of letting the city test their soil, but let's face it, $1500 for someone in that neighbourhood is likely a significant amount of money, how many people are not going to consider it? Not only that, but it only takes one positive test for contamination to seriously diminish the value of the entire neighbourhood. You honestly don't think one person will allow the test?

Why should the city be responsible? I guess that's my socialist attitude, not thinking it's fair those people should get stuck with a worthless piece of property.

The Ti Cats had their chance. Bob Young decided not to get involved. He said he could live with whatever the decision was.

True they have 4 years to build it, but the organizing committee wants the plans firmed up as soon as possible.

As for the residents of the area, I really don't care. Most of those homes are dumps and should have been bulldozed a long time ago. Besides that, if I lived in one of those homes I would want to know if the property I lived on was contaminated. The properties in that area are pretty much worthless with or without the soil tests, so why not test to confirm one way or another. If the tests are negative for contaminents it might even get them a few more dollars once the city moves to purchase them.

With your socialist leanings you should know all about the greater good. In this case the plight of 60 property owners does not outweigh the potential benefits that the rest of the citizens of this city will get from building these facilities.

[crhayes]

The Ti Cats had their chance. Bob Young decided not to get involved. He said he could live with whatever the decision was.

True they have 4 years to build it, but the organizing committee wants the plans firmed up as soon as possible.

As for the residents of the area, I really don't care. Most of those homes are dumps and should have been bulldozed a long time ago. Besides that, if I lived in one of those homes I would want to know if the property I lived on was contaminated. The properties in that area are pretty much worthless with or without the soil tests, so why not test to confirm one way or another. If the tests are negative for contaminents it might even get them a few more dollars once the city moves to purchase them.

With your socialist leanings you should know all about the greater good. In this case the plight of 60 property owners does not outweigh the potential benefits that the rest of the citizens of this city will get from building these facilities.

Yes this is really socialist, lets f^$% the poor people over even more so we can give back to the middle and upper class. Good reasoning.

[heart7broken]

Good morning all,

Can anyone tell me that: - Which resident houses on which streets will be re-locate for the West Harbour Pan American Stadium ?

I heard Hess, Queen, and even Oxford streets has to be clear out for making entry road to the Stadium . Is this true or just rumors ? I am quite confuse here. Please help !

Thanks!

[SteelTown]

I believe Grieg to Bay St from Staurt St to Barton. I also believe homes at Hess to Caroline from Barton to Windsor Dr as well. Believe it's about 40-ish homes.

[heart7broken]

I believe Grieg to Bay St from Staurt St to Barton. I also believe homes at Hess to Caroline from Barton to Windsor Dr as well. Believe it's about 40-ish homes.

Hello SteelTown,

Which side of Grieg (on Queen St. North) do you mean ? Is it going to go beyond Little Grieg to Cannon St. or not ? Do you have a map to specify ?

Many thanks!

[SteelTown]

Sure I'll draw out a map but I'm busy all day and evening. So it'll be awhile before I get a chance to draw the outline.

But really it's just my assumption from what I heard so I'm not 100% sure.

The city bought out a lot of houses along the Linc in the 90s and ultimately re-sold a bunch to the market since it was detemined they didn't need to be demolished.

[realcity]

The Ti Cats had their chance. Bob Young decided not to get involved. He said he could live with whatever the decision was.

True they have 4 years to build it, but the organizing committee wants the plans firmed up as soon as possible.

As for the residents of the area, I really don't care. Most of those homes are dumps and should have been bulldozed a long time ago. Besides that, if I lived in one of those homes I would want to know if the property I lived on was contaminated. The properties in that area are pretty much worthless with or without the soil tests, so why not test to confirm one way or another. If the tests are negative for contaminents it might even get them a few more dollars once the city moves to purchase them.

With your socialist leanings you should know all about the greater good. In this case the plight of 60 property owners does not outweigh the potential benefits that the rest of the citizens of this city will get from building these facilities.

This has got to be one of the most despicable, comments made on this board. I'm personally insulted and embarrassed. These are people's homes, they are happy and proud of home ownership. And probably love the location. I think this my last comment I do not want to be associated with the Hamilton threads anymore. There's discourse and disagreement and then just ignorance.

Steel: I will keep my account for the Illustrators section. And the threads that talk about architecture... but consider me gone from here.

[heart7broken]

As for the residents of the area, I really don't care. Most of those homes are dumps and should have been bulldozed a long time ago. Besides that, if I lived in one of those homes I would want to know if the property I lived on was contaminated. The properties in that area are pretty much worthless with or without the soil tests, so why not test to confirm one way or another. If the tests are negative for contaminents it might even get them a few more dollars once the city moves to purchase them.


I could not believe someone can say studpid & mean, cold heart thing like this bigguy1231 ...!

Who's the heck are you to judge on people private's property by calling them "dumps" ? I hope you are not working in the public sector ! If am I your boss, you will lose your job!:hell: :hell: :hell:

Do you know how it feel when loosing your home, where you live for your whole life with lot of memories ?

[crhayes]

This has got to be one of the most despicable, comments made on this board. I'm personally insulted and embarrassed. These are people's homes, they are happy and proud of home ownership. And probably love the location. I think this my last comment I do not want to be associated with the Hamilton threads anymore. There's discourse and disagreement and then just ignorance.

Steel: I will keep my account for the Illustrators section. And the threads that talk about architecture... but consider me gone from here.

I agree.

It's called empathy bigguy1231, you know, putting yourself in other people's shoes. Try it and I HOPE you have a change of heart...

P.S. Concerned citizen? Doesn't seem that way.

[Jon Dalton]

Jackson Square - 260 businesses, 500 residents all just wiped out. This stadium business is small potatoes.

[Gurnett71]

This has got to be one of the most despicable, comments made on this board. I'm personally insulted and embarrassed. These are people's homes, they are happy and proud of home ownership. And probably love the location. I think this my last comment I do not want to be associated with the Hamilton threads anymore. There's discourse and disagreement and then just ignorance.

agreed...:hell:

[drpgq]

This has got to be one of the most despicable, comments made on this board. I'm personally insulted and embarrassed. These are people's homes, they are happy and proud of home ownership. And probably love the location. I think this my last comment I do not want to be associated with the Hamilton threads anymore. There's discourse and disagreement and then just ignorance.

Steel: I will keep my account for the Illustrators section. And the threads that talk about architecture... but consider me gone from here.

Oh no, someone saw a post that offended them on the internets! Grow up.

[markbarbera]

Oh no, someone saw a post that offended them on the internets! Grow up.

The ability to post on the internet does not absolve anyone from the expectation to maintain a level of respect and basic decency. The forum, while on the internet, still has rules for behaiour. When someone is posting unacceptable opinions, be they racist, sexist, homophobic or prejudiced in any manner, it should not be tolerated. Simply put it is a manner of common decency. It has been a while since the forum suffered a stretch of cheap insult-based postings, an I for one don't want it to descend to that level again. Kudos for realcity an all the others for calling the disastefulness of this posting. Those who post such comment - and those who try defending it - are truly the ones who need to grow up.

[SteelTown]

Here yea go.....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Aallen396/stadiumsite1.jpg

Now I'm not 100% sure but I believe the buildings along Bay St from Stuart and Barton might stay, if stay use the blue line instead. The box south at Hess and Caroline might take up the whole block, depending on the parking issue. That's where parking will go.

This rendering helps to give you an idea

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v174/Appster/stadiumvel.jpg

[flar]

I hope they don't tear down the houses on Bay St, I like those ones. I actually went in to look at one for sale a few years back, the scrapyard behind it really turned me off though.








As for the comment about the houses: people have made their distaste for that opinion known, let's move on. There have been worse comments made on here and we've survived.

[bigguy1231]

This has got to be one of the most despicable, comments made on this board. I'm personally insulted and embarrassed. These are people's homes, they are happy and proud of home ownership. And probably love the location. I think this my last comment I do not want to be associated with the Hamilton threads anymore. There's discourse and disagreement and then just ignorance.

Steel: I will keep my account for the Illustrators section. And the threads that talk about architecture... but consider me gone from here.

Oh waaaa.

Grow up.

If you can't handle someone speaking their mind then maybe you shouldn't be on any forum. That goes for all of you whining about my comments.

I don't pull punches. I speak my mind, always have and always will. It may not be politically correct, but I don't play that game. I do the same in person, so this has nothing to do with internet anonymity.

[markbarbera]

Here yea go.....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Aallen396/stadiumsite1.jpg

Now I'm not 100% sure but I believe the buildings along Bay St from Stuart and Barton might stay, if stay use the blue line instead. The box south at Hess and Caroline might take up the whole block, depending on the parking issue. That's where parking will go.

This rendering helps to give you an idea

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v174/Appster/stadiumvel.jpg

Not really an accurate idea seeing as the CN freight yards to the east and the north of the site (above the velodrome and to the left of the entire site) are shown as lush greenspace, which is completely contrary to reality.

[Gurnett71]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/where-next-for-the-ticats/article1527082/

Everyone who loves Canadian football has a soft spot for Ivor Wynne Stadium, even visiting teams made to feel extremely unwelcome there.

Tucked into a working class east end Hamilton neighbourhood like an old style English football ground, what was originally known as Civic Stadium was constructed for the British Empire Games of 1930. It is a grotty but remarkably intimate place to watch a sport played on a great big field, the concrete walls of the stands constructed nearly against the sidelines in a way that would never pass muster now. There's almost no separation between players and paying customers, to which several generations of hated Toronto Argonauts can attest.

Today, Ivor Wynne is on its last legs.

There’s no appetite or funds for maintaining shrines in the CFL, no Fenways or Wrigleys preserved as reminders of times past, and so the millions of dollars pumped into the stadium every year just to keep it standing are viewed as a case of good money thrown after bad.

Fortunately, with the stadium on the clock, deliverance is at hand in the form of the public money made available for the Pan American Games of 2015. The Golden Horseshoe is playing host, Hamilton has been promised the track and field facility, and from that foundation should emerge a new home for the Tiger-Cats.

There is an unprecedented building boom in the CFL right now – renovations and expansion in Montreal, a retrofit in Vancouver, a brand new stadium about to go up in Winnipeg and a dome in the works in Regina. That’s extremely good news for the league, because the added revenues generated by new facilities will make it a whole lot easier for teams to turn a profit.

In Hamilton, where no owner of the Ticats has done that in decades, the construction of the Pan Am stadium means owner Bob Young might at least be able to exit the realm of pure philanthropy.

But – you guessed it – it’s not quite so simple.

The 15,000-seat park being built with the $105-million or so allocated for the Pan Ams won’t, in itself, be suitable for the CFL. It will have to be expanded to a minimum capacity of 25,000, adapted for football, and provided with amenities such as press and private boxes. The money for that, which could be tens of millions of dollars more, will have to come from the private sector – and probably, in no small part, from Young and the Ticats.

In order to justify that investment, they’d need to be able to make a business case, including benefiting from things like naming rights and spinoff real estate development. Not so quietly, the Ticats have been making it clear they think that would be easier to accomplish in a location other than the one the city has chosen in the West Harbour neighbourhood.

From the city’s point of view, this is a once-in-a-generation opportunity to revive what is essentially a dead industrial area, and to help connect the very successful waterfront redevelopment with Hamilton’s struggling downtown core. The Ticats might be part of the local history and fabric but this isn’t Saskatchewan – the franchise has nearly died of neglect several times in the past. In any case, the Ticats only use the stadium 11 times a year, including preseason games. Politically, by necessity, it’s about more than football, and so barring something that might make the site impossible (sky-high remediation costs, for instance), the city intends to stick to its guns, and resist moving the project to a location that might be more to the Ticats’ liking – presumably a visible and easily accessible spot outside of downtown next to one of the area’s major highways.

Right now, it’s a bit of a standoff, and any threats from the football team have been purely of the implied variety, passing references to all that Young has done for the city (including renovating a downtown building and locating several of his businesses there), and to the money that he has lost since pulling the Ticats out of bankruptcy.

The team’s got a point. The city’s got a point.

This is going to get tense, it could get ugly, and in the end, that gift horse might well get looked in the mouth

[SteelTown]

Good news!

Mayor Fred said today based on preliminary soil testing it's been determined the remediation cost will be from $3.5 to $4 million. So far everything is under budget and some home owners have already agreed to sell their homes.

But the bad news is that Mayor Fred said the LRT for the B-Line will not be completed in 2015. Construction won't happen until after the games.

[drpgq]

Awesome about the stadium. Where's Bratina now? Sad about the late start to LRT.

[emge]

Great about the remediation. The whole "people will not sell" thing was overblown anyway.

[markbarbera]

Intersting article in Friday's Spec. Dont know how it got missed here...

City stays on the bench for stadium conference
by Andrew Dreschel

Even over the phone, HamiltonTiger-Cats president Scott Mitchell sounded pumped.
He was among some 225 prosports team executives from across North America drawn to a three-day conference in Arlington, Texas, to catch the latest word on stadium design, revenue and sponsorships — all issues swirling around Hamilton’s Pan Am debate.
According to Mitchell, they even talked about the importance of stadium location for long-term viability.
“It really is a tremendous conference,” Mitchell said in a phone interview from the convention.
“It’s been a great opportunity for me to talk to the best and the brightest in the stadium building
and operations business.”
A great opportunity for the Ticats, maybe. But not for the City of Hamilton. They didn’t send anybody. Not Mayor Fred Eisenberger. Not a solitary staffer.
Why not? After all, the city is kicking in $55 million to the $102-million Pan Am stadium, which is supposed to replace the Ticats’ faded home at Ivor Wynne.
Why pass on such a golden opportunity to tap into cutting-edge thinking around stadium development
and operations? David Adames, the city’s Pan Am liaison, says it was partly due to timing.
“In fairness, we did find out about it a little late in our schedules,” he says.
Adames says the other part is city staff are already hard at work implementing council’s decision to build the stadium in the west harbour.
The city could “potentially” send someone to the annual conference next year, Eisenberger says.
But as far as he’s concerned, the analysis of sites and other business issues have already been thoroughly explored in the Deloitte business plan, the basis for council to pick the west harbour site.
“The ultimate assessment was from a city-building perspective, and potentially from a city and team perspective, this site works,” Eisenberger said.
Nobody is saying it, of course, but this is all part of the undeclared war between city hall and the Ticats, who’ve strongly suggested the west harbour doesn’t make business sense for their money-losing operation.
Among other concerns, they think it’s too remote from a major highway and doesn’t have enough on-site parking.
For its part, city hall sees it as a developmental link to downtown, the waterfront and public transit initiatives. According to Mitchell, the Ticats are now about two weeks away from giving the city their own business plan, which will spell out how much money the team will contribute to a west harbour stadium and the pros and cons of building there. That plan will include input from the team’s private sector partners and previous fan surveys that stress the importance of parking and accessibility. The results of an ongoing survey of season-ticket holders will also be included.
Though neither side is playing hardball — yet — it’s a safe bet the city is less than happy the Ticats are dropping their business plan on the table in such a public manner rather than trying to work through their concerns privately.
Both sides are in a bind.
The city is looking to the Ticats and other private sector interests to raise up to $50 million in order to build a 25,000-seat stadium. Right now, the $102 million that has been committed by the city, province and feds will only build a 15,000- to 20,000-seater.
The Ticats say that’s too small for their purposes but they’re not interested in sinking big dollars into a location that doesn’t work for them.
There’s other stuff at stake, too.
Though the stadium will be cityowned, it’s still an open question who will operate it.
The Ticats seem to think they will. But city staff have made no recommendation and council has made no decision.
Adames says it could be the Ticats, it could be the city, or it could be a third party, much as Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment Ltd. operates Toronto’s BMO Field and the Air Canada Centre.
The decision isn’t pressing at the moment. But if council does vote to give it to the city, they might want to think about booking early for next year’s Sports Facilities and Franchises Conference.

Doesn't give me much faith in the city planners when they miss an opportunity like this to educate themselves on lessons learned from stadium building endeavours. Almost like they didn't want to hear what was being said at the conference. The "I've made up my mind, don't confuse me with the facts" attitude seems to be prevailing once again in this city. No wonder the city produces failure after failure.

[thistleclub]

a three-day conference in Arlington, Texas, to catch the latest word on stadium design, revenue and sponsorships

Arlington knows a thing or two about stadium planning, having seen the cost of Cowboy Stadium balloon from an estimated $650 million (2004) to $1.2 billion. Through all of that, the city's contribution has apparently capped out at $325 million, with team owner Jerry Jones on the hook for the rest. A stadium build that's 1/3 government-funded, 2/3 private sector-funded sounds like a model worthy of emulating.

[SteelTown]

Mayor sacks Cats on stadium site
Whoever 'puts up lion's share of money gets to make call on location'

April 10, 2010
John Kernaghan
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/751132

Business leaders strongly backed Mayor Fred Eisenberger yesterday after he made it clear the city is driving the Pan Am bus, not "minority" partners like the Tiger-Cats.

Eisenberger told a breakfast audience at The Hamilton Club he is unwavering in his support for developing the west harbour at a crucial juncture in the city's history.

The business people particularly supported a city plan to locate the Games stadium at a location the football club says has limitations.

"Our association was almost unanimous that it (west harbour) is seen as a chance to re-energize the north end and downtown," said Tim Mattioli of the Realtors Association of Hamilton-Burlington.

The chair of the organization's government relations committee dismissed Ticat concerns about access to a west harbour stadium.

"People found their way to games at Ivor Wynne, people will find their way to this stadium, too.

"People adjust."

He said a Plan B site near a major highway or in an industrial zone doesn't send a positive message.

"People have judged Hamilton by a view from Skyway Bridge, now there's a chance to show the world a beautiful view of the city. West harbour does that."

Effort Trust CEO Tom Weisz, who calls his support of the Bay and Barton streets' location "rational exuberance," termed the Pan Am opportunity a rare moment in time.

He said Hamiltonians will be able to look back and proudly recognize the point in history when a vital part of the city was reinvented.

Weisz, who is chair of the city's Future Fund, the source of the $60 million Hamilton will invest in Games facilities, called on the Ticats to step up and be part of the west harbour vision.

"Bob Young has done some great things for the city. Here's a chance to do something more."

Eisenberger's remarks and the response wrenched the Pan Am debate back to arguments for the general public good from a stadium-specific discussion. He laid out the transformational impact of the Games facilities, noting they are greater than a stadium and velodrome in the west harbour area.

"This involves a whole precinct from the waterfront to Main Street."

In an interview later, he said he had to restate why redeveloping the west harbour location was vital to the city's future.

He agreed the stadium issue, with the Ticats skeptical of the site, had become the central focus.

"Let me be fair, it's a minority partnership when it comes to the Tiger-Cats. I love the Tiger-Cats as much as anyone, and we want to make sure they are well-placed and looked after. But there's a bigger economic pie for the city we have to be mindful of."

He stressed whoever "puts up the lion's share of the money (the city) gets to make the call on location."

A clearly disappointed Ticat president Scott Mitchell said he had no response to the minority partner comment, but stressed the football club continues to meet with the city to seek answers for the west harbour site.

He added all the partners in Hamilton's portion of the Games have to come up with business plans for facilities that make sense to the 2015 host corporation and Queen's Park, which has led the Pan Am push.

Ticat partners and advisers wonder if the west harbour site can generate revenues to ensure long-term viability of a stadium there.

Meantime, Eisenberger said the city has been approached by many potential stakeholders in the development, banking and investment fields.

"They've very keen on west harbour and see how important this is. We can't let them down by wavering on this."

[markbarbera]

Sounds like we're starting down the path to an Eisenberger legacy of a post-Pan Am white elephant stadium and a city without the Ticats...

[bigguy1231]

I read that article this morning and am glad to see the city sticking to the plan.

This is about the city and an opportunity to revitalize an area badly in need of revitalization. This is going to be more than just a stadium. It will have practice facilities and hopefully the velodrome. It will be a training centre once the games are over attracting people to the area year round. Maybe they could add a cooling system under the practice track and use it as a skating oval in the winter.

The Ti Cats are going to have to accept it or build their own stadium. I don't see them doing that. Maybe it's time they got on board and start doing something positive, rather than whining and complaining.

[drpgq]

Just finished filling out my season ticket survey and not surprisingly I don't think my answers were Confederation Park friendly. I also have to talk to my ticket rep on Monday and will express my displeasure at the Cats preference for Confederation Park or even worse Lafarge.

[Berklon]

Are there any plans to make the stadium more concert friendly? I don't know exactly what that entails, but I would think having a new stadium at the west harbour would be great for spring/summer concerts. Something along the lines of the Molson Ampitheatre in scope and attractions.

I'd hate to see the stadium sitting empty so often.

[thistleclub]

Noticed and noted:

January 16, 2008: "Cat president Scott Mitchell conceded last night that some of the club's 16,000 season ticket holders (http://www.thespec.com/article/310193) are facing a 'significant jump' in prices."

April 7, 2010: "The Tiger-Cats are asking their 5,000 season's-ticket holders (http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/749172) what they want in a new Pan Am Games stadium."

Assuming those numbers are legit, I can't wait to see how many are hanging in there after the 2015 adjustment.

[BCTed]

Noticed and noted:

January 16, 2008: "Cat president Scott Mitchell conceded last night that some of the club's 16,000 season ticket holders (http://www.thespec.com/article/310193) are facing a 'significant jump' in prices."

April 7, 2010: "The Tiger-Cats are asking their 5,000 season's-ticket holders (http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/749172[/URL) what they want in a new Pan Am Games stadium."

Assuming those numbers are legit, I can't wait to see how many are hanging in there after the 2015 adjustment.

I am assuming that the numbers are not apples-to-apples. My guess is that the 16,000 refers to the number of purchased season tickets in 2008, while the 5,000 refers to the number of people who hold season tickets in their name in 2009/2010.

[thistleclub]

I think you're right. The more recent article mentions those 5,000 holding about 10,000 seats (http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/749172). Still, an appreciable dip in the space of two years.

[Jon Dalton]

Good on mayor Fred. But this LRT news really friggin sucks the bag.

[thistleclub]

Strathcona Community Meeting re Pan Am Stadium
Monday, April 26 @ 7:00 p.m.
Hess Street School, 107 Hess Street North, Hamilton

A community meeting is being held to provide information about the proposed location of the Pan Am Stadium and to respond to questions. David Adames (Executive Director of Tourism Hamilton) will speak about the stadium and Brian Hollingsworth (IBI) will speak about the "West Harbour Stadium Site Transportation Impact Assessment".

[SteelTown]

Stadium site 'resolvable': Troop
Games CEO 'confident' of resolution

April 14, 2010
John Kernaghan
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/753205

The Pan Am Games CEO is bullish on a stadium solution for Hamilton despite some head-butting between the city and the Tiger-Cats.

"I'm optimistic that a good resolution is shaping up between our municipal partner and the Tiger-Cats, our legacy partner," Ian Troop said.

His comments follow a period in which the city and the Ticats seemed to move farther apart on the issue of stadium location.

Mayor Fred Eisenberger declared late last week the city is putting up the most money and will make the call on a stadium site, the west harbour location near Bay and Barton streets.

The Ticats and partners of the football club have stressed the site's limitations -- parking, road access and visibility -- diminished their ability to contribute to the stadium.

"I'm confident the partners will come together for the benefit of Hamilton," said Troop of the consulting process.

The football club is expected to submit its business plan for a stadium to city staff by the end of the month.

Sources close to the Pan Am planning process noted yesterday the government of Premier Dalton McGuinty was making it clear the stadium site was the city's call.

McGuinty led the campaign to win the Games based on the lack of sports and recreation facilities in the province and the opportunity for renewal projects like Hamilton's west harbour and Toronto's west Don lands, where the athlete's village will be built.

Hamilton is contributing $60 million for the $102-million, 15,000-seat track and field stadium, $11.4-million velodrome and the land they sit on for the Games.

The provincial and federal governments are chipping in almost $32 million each.

The Tiger-Cats and the private sector was asked to come up with up to $50 million to create a 25,000- to 30,000-seat stadium for football after the Games.

The football club has not revealed how much it would contribute to a larger facility.

Meantime, Toronto 2015 moved quickly this week to start the hunt for an agency to sell the Pan Am brand in Canada.

"I see it more as an opportunity than a challenge," Troop said. "We wanted to start as soon as we can to ramp up awareness about the Games."

He said the search is for creative minds to make the Games a compelling "can't-miss" event through a branding process that focuses on athletes and the cultural and arts events which will accompany the $1.4-billion Games.

An agency will be picked by late May to immediately begin the branding process.

Troop has also been connecting with national sports organizations to get their views on staging the Games in 17 municipalities from Niagara to Oshawa.

[highwater]

The football club is expected to submit its business plan for a stadium to city staff by the end of the month.

If their 'business plan' is based in any part on that ridiculous push poll they conducted, I hope staff tell them where they can stick it.

[SteelTown]

Residents back harbour site for stadium

April 27, 2010
John Kernaghan
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/759048

The Tiger-Cats took a hit and the Pan Am Games stadium site at the west harbour won plenty of support at a Strathcona community meeting last night.

"The Ticats are trying to hijack the stadium," said resident James Drake. "Can't we just build a Pan Am stadium (without them)?" he added as about 60 people at Hess Street School shared views and questions about the Bay and Barton streets stadium location. Drake noted Ticat management has been clear it doesn't see much revenue in the brownfield site.

Football club president Scott Mitchell has insisted the Ticats continue to work with the city to find ways to make it work.

David Adames, the city's Pan Am pointman, said the goal is "a sustainable stadium for the city and a sustainable Tiger-Cats."

The city called the public meeting as part of an information process that Adames says will accelerate over the next few months.

Hamilton is putting up $60 million for land in the west harbour, the stadium and velodrome. The province and federal governments are providing almost $32 million each for the facilities.

The Ticats were challenged to find partners to take the stadium from a $102-million facility for 15,000 people to a 25,000 to 27,000-seat stadium that would cost an extra $25 to $50 million. The football club is expected to submit a stadium business plan to city staff late this month or early in May.

Though the meeting was called to focus on transportation issues, the residents from Wards 1 and 2 took little issue with the IBI Group study that stressed public transit, walking and cycling access to the stadium.

Stadium design was a popular theme.

"I'm worried about an ugly barrier between the street and the waterfront," said Jennifer Dawson. "I worry about going cheap on the stadium and it becomes a blight, not a jewel."

Adames said the city is looking at ways to give residents a chance to weigh in on design and noted local and American design firms were already contacting Hamilton.

Responding to fears of going over budget, Adames and Ward 1 Councillor Brian McHattie stressed city council has drawn the line at $60 million from its Future Fund.

[markbarbera]

It should be noted that the stadium site is not in Strathcona. Strathcona is adjacent to Central, the neighbourhood that encompassed the west harbour location.

As far as Strathcona residents' reported enthusiasm for this project, I'll reserve further comment until we hear their response to the widening of Barton West, Bay North and Locke North to accomodate traffic to the stadium site (one of the inevitable concessions needed to get the Ticats on board the project).

[emge]

Hmm.. I think it's pretty much equal concern for both Strathcona and Central residents, since Queen Street is the dividing line? I don't live there, but I understand the impact it will have on that neighbourhood - and either way, McHattie lives a couple minutes away from the proposed stadium site, so I'm sure he understands very well the implications of the stadium being built on area residents.

[SteelTown]

Council (Ferguson really) found another 680 or so parking space. So that's 1280 parking spots now available for the stadium.

According to Ferguson’s calculations, the location can accommodate about 680 parking spots, more than doubling the currently allocated 600 on-site spaces.

Interviewed later, Ferguson said extra parking is critical for his constituents.

“The people from Ancaster do not want to take public transit down to a football game and they do not want to park under Jackson Square and walk over,” he said.

“If we don’t give some more onsite parking, they simply won’t go.”

[drpgq]

Council (Ferguson really) found another 680 or so parking space. So that's 1280 parking spots now available for the stadium.

Where are these extra parking spaces coming from anyways? Does that include the spots at Bayfront or what?

[markbarbera]

Land the city owns across from the old Rheem factory. City staff was about to sell it off as surplus and Ferguson caught the oopsie before it happened.

Anyone else find it disturbing an/or ironic that council is promoting the retention (and incrementation) of surface parking area in the lower city?

[SteelTown]

Looks like the Harmony Apartments located at 245 Bay Street North will be protected. Perhaps a short term athletes or coaching residence.

[Gurnett71]

Ticats say no to west-harbour stadium
May 06, 2010
Wade Hemsworth
The Hamilton Tiger-Cats say that the west harbour site for a new football stadium will not work.

Ticats owner Bob Young told a private meeting of Tiger-Cats supporters this morning that the team could lose as much as $7 million a year if it were forced into the city-preferred west harbor option.

The Cats are asking the City of Hamilton for a 90-day moratorium on the stadium decision to look at other options.

After the meeting, Young explained there are at least three options that have not been full explored: One is the intersection of the QEW and the Red Hill Valley Parkway near Confederation Park; the second is “on the Hamilton side of Aldershot;” and the third is Chedoke Park, although Young acknowledged this site would be complicated because the land is under the protection of the Niagara Escarpment Commission.

Young said he considers the first to be the best of those option.

Outside the breakfast meeting, Young emphasized “failure is not an option” and said he plans to work closely with the city to find a successful resolution.

“David Braley (owner of the Argos and B.C. Lions) and I own these institutions that were in business for 100 years before we got involved, and we have a responsibility to make sure they’re still in business 100 years after we’ve been involved,” he said.

Hamilton is contributing $60 million for a $102-million, 15,000-seat track-and-field stadium, $11.4-million velodrome and the land they sit on for the 2015 Pan Am Games. The provincial and federal governments are chipping in almost $32 million each.

The Tiger-Cats and the private sector are being asked to come up with up to $50 million to create a 25,000- to 30,000-seat stadium for football after the Games.

Young said, “like any landlord, you’d better make sure your tenant is successful if you’re going to make your business successful.”

“I don’t know about you, I don’t know about Mr. Braley, but I sure don’t have $7 million a year to support the Tiger-Cats with.”

Young said the west harbour site is effectively landlocked.

It’s bordered by a residential neighbourhood that lacks sufficient roads to move fans in and out of football games and hemmed in by water, rail yards and the cliff at the High Level Bridge.

It also lacks visibility to make sponsorship feasible for the team and the city, he said.

whemsworth@thespec.com
905-526-3254

[highwater]

Bastards. They'll never get another cent of my money.

[thistleclub]

The Cats are asking the City of Hamilton for a 90-day moratorium on the stadium decision to look at other options.

After the meeting, Young explained there are at least three options that have not been full explored: One is the intersection of the QEW and the Red Hill Valley Parkway near Confederation Park; the second is “on the Hamilton side of Aldershot;” and the third is Chedoke Park, although Young acknowledged this site would be complicated because the land is under the protection of the Niagara Escarpment Commission.

Young said he considers the first to be the best of those option.

The third isn't gonna happen, so it's not worth mentioning. The second is a knee-slapper that doesn't get around the fact that (a) both sides of Aldershot are in Burlington; and (b) the team would therefore have to wring $60 million from another city, one that's having enough fun with its own PanAm facility, which I think is currently mired in a appeal. So it's basically a single alternative that they're interested in, and it's the one council almost unanimously rejected a year ago. Some keen business minds at work over on Jarvis Street.

Funny that the Skyway was partly closed because of an accident this morning, as was the eastbound Linc yesterday. I know that those kinds of things rarely happen, but still a little comic.

[markbarbera]

Sounds like we're starting down the path to an Eisenberger legacy of a post-Pan Am white elephant stadium and a city without the Ticats...

...and we are one step closer to a self-fulfilling prophecy...

Bob Young's statement as posted today on the Ticats' website:

Building successful stadiums is not easy!

By Bob Young
Caretaker, Hamilton Tiger-Cats Football Club



When the City insists that they are building a stadium, and the Tiger-Cat Football Club is simply a tenant, they are correct. On the other hand, all successful landlords always take the needs of their tenants into consideration when they decide important issues such as location, size, and accessibility.

The success of any new building is dependent on the success of your tenant. Without successful tenants, landlords do not have a hope of getting a return on the investment they are making in their building. This is true whether it is an office building, a shopping center, a condo apartment building, or a stadium. As just one taxpayer in Hamilton, I am counting on the City to ensure the financial success of building the new stadium.

There are many examples around the world where the wrong building in the wrong place does not succeed financially and does not improve the area in question. The Olympic Stadium in Montreal is just one example of misplaced public investment. The difference is that the big “Owe,” as it has come to be known, was built without consulting either of its future tenants, the Expos or the Alouettes. Both teams went bankrupt trying to play in the wrong stadium in the wrong part of town. Whereas a much smaller investment in Percival Molson Stadium, also in Montreal, is turning out to be a great success thanks to the collaboration between the City of Montreal, McGill University and the Alouettes Football Club.

Simply put there has been no collaboration in Hamilton’s stadium project to date. The Tiger-Cats have pointed out many unresolved problems with the West Harbour location. These concerns include:



◦a) No visibility outside of the immediate neighbourhood. Stadium “naming rights” can sell for millions of dollars per year. But no company will pay to put their name on a stadium if no one knows where the stadium is.
◦b) Traffic only has access to the West Harbour from one direction. This could be resolved with new roads, but the City has made the commitment to the local residents not to build any additional roads. This is just going to ensure that the residents are subjected to hours of traffic jams before and after every event held in the City’s new public facility.
◦c) No Parking. The City assures us rapid transit will be built to the site, but there is no funding for the proposed rapid transit. So the only access for many years after the stadium is built will be by foot or by car.
◦d) Neighbours. We try to point out that the majority of the neighbours are families whose quiet enjoyment of their neighbourhood will either be damaged by additional roads and parking lots, or by hours of traffic before and after every event held at the stadium if no other roads are built.

Whenever we try to point out any of these problems to the City our concerns are summarily rejected, with the claim that it won’t be any worse than Ivor Wynne -- but Ivor Wynne is a drain on the City’s of Hamilton’s budget, and is the cause of the Tiger-Cats financial instability for more than 40 years. More on this in a minute.

The City is relying on reports (such as the “Deloitte Report”) that were commissioned to study the wrong factors which have little or nothing to do with the economic feasibility of their anchor tenant, the Tiger-Cats. Deloitte (www.deloitte.com) is one of the great consulting firms in the world today, but they were only asked to consider the economics of expanding a facility in the West Harbour from 15,000 seats to 25,000. Deloitte did a fine job in assessing that simple mandate. Unfortunately, the City did not ask Deloitte if that site or any others would work for a CFL football team, much less outdoor music concerts, political rallies, and other public events publicly-funded stadiums should be used for.

Furthermore, the Deloitte report cautions that the old adage of “build it and they will come” has not always proven to be true. In fact, that philosophy has ended in disaster in many cases. A famous example is the Miami Arena. It was constructed in the Overtown district of Miami in 1988. Constructed on the basis it would rejuvenate the area, they built it without consulting their prospective tenants in the private sector and public never came. Only ten years later, both major tenants (the NBA’s Miami Heat and the NHL’s Florida Panthers) had vacated the premises leading to the demolition of the building in 1998.




The report also indicates that Hamilton would need to develop a massive sports and entertainment precinct in the area in order for the stadium and surrounding projects to be successful. The Tiger-Cats have spoken to several of the largest and best retail and commercial developers in Ontario and not found any interest in the West Harbour concept as it exists. The City has yet to introduce us to any reputable developers who indicate they might invest in the West Harbour site.

The City also commissioned a traffic study of the area surrounding the proposed West Harbour location but no one involved in this traffic study of fans going to a football game was asked to talk to the football team. In effect, both studies were not asked if the proposed stadium location had the necessary elements to ensure the success of the tenant of the building, in this case a CFL football team.

I asked my financial advisor and Chartered Accountant, Doug Rye (a member of the CFL's Board of Governors as well as the CFL Audit and Finance Committee), to provide an analysis on the proposed West Harbour location and its impact on the Tiger-Cats business operations.

He discovered the Deloitte’s Report assumed more than $2,000,000 dollars of current Tiger-Cat revenues (such as some of our ticket revenues and some of our corporate sponsorship revenues) were expected to be used by the City to cover new Stadium operating costs on an ongoing basis in the West Harbour. The report also suggests that all of the naming rights revenue for the stadium should belong to the City, although the City has no experience in selling naming rights successfully, and are proposing a location for the stadium where naming rights will have little value.

Not unexpectedly, the report assumed a substantial increase in Stadium rent. More surprisingly, the report proposes Tiger-Cat fans pay a per ticket surcharge to the stadium fund. This amounts to the same thing as a special Tiger-Cat tax. Imposing tax increases on money losing businesses is not a reliable source of funds for the City.

We have calculated financial projections for the 2014 fiscal year (the first year the stadium might be completed) based on historical averages, stadium capacity, information from the Deloitte report and estimated inflationary impact. Using the allocations suggested by Deloitte and our estimate of expenses and revenues in the 2014 fiscal year, operating out of a 20,000 seat stadium in the West Harbour our franchise could lose in excess of $7,000,000 per year. We have shared both our analysis and the conclusion that the stadium as proposed will not succeed as a venue for a CFL team.

I do have to admit to a personal stake in the outcome of this debate.

I bought into the Hamilton Tiger-Cats for a whole bunch of illogical personal reasons. They include my personal experience of having grown up in Hamilton until I was 10 and then being dragged around the world for the next 10 years. My answer to the question of “where are you from,” no matter where I have been living ever since, has always been Hamilton. I continue to have friends and family in Hamilton, and as you know I’m a passionate Tiger-Cat fan. So when the Tiger-Cats finished 1-17 and went bankrupt in 2003, I made the very silly emotional decision to put my money where my heart was.

Financially it has been one of the worst ideas I’ve ever had. No, scratch that -- it has been easily the worst financial idea I’ve ever had. While we have trimmed the losses of the team every year we are still losing a huge number of dollars every year.

The problem is that we don’t have a viable stadium. Every Tiger-Cat fan loves Ivor Wynne, but it is simply no longer a viable stadium for generating the revenue required to run a competitive CFL team, much less other sports teams, and even less so for music concerts or other community events. The reasons for Ivor Wynne’s lack of success for anything, even CFL football, is the lack of visibility and the lack of access.

Just ask anyone in Ontario where Ivor Wynne is. If they don’t live in Hamilton or didn’t previously live in Hamilton, they’ll simply have no idea. The reason the stadium is still named Ivor Wynne after all these years is no one is willing to pay enough for the naming rights to justify the cost of the scaffolding needed to change the sign. The only reason Hamilton has had a football team for the last 40 years is that a long line of foolish but wealthy and philanthropic citizens have been willing to pay the losses.

The City has an opportunity to build a public facility to host all manner of public events, and to do so profitably. The new stadium should increase the tax base of the city and ensure the success of the city’s sporting, entertainment, and tourist industries, while at the same time providing the city with a necessary public meeting space. To do this, the City needs to listen to the experts, whether those experts are future tenants of the stadium or world class stadium building consultants. This is Hamilton’s opportunity to build a superb, sustainable, and financially successful infrastructure project.

The good news is that I am committed to participating in a winning concept. As Caretaker, my definition of a “winning” concept is one that meets both the City’s and the Tiger-Cat’s financial goals.

Furthermore, we as an organization are convinced we can help build a profitable and sustainable business in the right location. We know this project will work and we look forward to working together with the City to come up with the right solution.

Cheers,

Bob

[bigguy1231]

All I can say to Bob Young is, build your own stadium if you don't like what the city is going to build.

[markbarbera]

All I can say to Bob Young is, build your own stadium if you don't like what the city is going to build.

Even if that means the Ticats leaving Hamilton? He's not going to foot the bill alone, heck no CFL owner has ever built their own stadium. So I guess you're cool with the Ticats heading off to Burlington or elsewhere, leaving that beloved West Harbour stadium as one big old white elephant money pit post Pan-Am...

[SteelTown]

Guess the City can start looking at a community owned CFL franchise now.

[markbarbera]

Bob Young's option for something on 'the Hamilton side' of Aldershot is rather vague. Basically it is anything northeast of Highway 5 and southwest of Highway 6. Where is he thinking - Clappison's Corners (doubt it), HWY6/403 interchange (is Mount St. Josph for sale - everything else there is mostly RBG), or perhaps a bit further south on the 403 (<cough> Kay Drage Park).

His reference to Chedoke Park may not mean actually in the park, but adjacent to it. There is the land containing CP's Aberdeen Yard. I believe CP is winding down use of the yard and the sorting warehouse. Could this be where Young is thinking?

I wonder if the city will hear him out or do the typical "fingers-in-ears-la-la-la-can't-hear-you" routine. Timing is everything and there is a municipal election six months down the line. This may ignite into the hottest election issue of 2010, should another mayoral candidate pop up any time soon.

[markbarbera]

Guess the City can start looking at a community owned CFL franchise now.

Assuming Bob Young would consider selling it to them, which is a great big not likely. Even if he did, we'd still have a money-losing community owned franchise, how long would that last? No, much more likely that we'll be seeing the back end of the Ticat bus as it leaves for a city that wants them. If they are looking for a new home, I understand Burlington is the third-best place to live in Canada...

[drpgq]

I think Bob Young is leaving a little unsaid here. Reading between the lines, with a new stadium in Confederation Park, are the Ticats expecting to have a piece of the land there to play commercial developer or build condos?

[thistleclub]

So Bob joins the list of disenchanted local owners like DeGroote and Braley who've eventually sobered up and realized that the Tiger-Cats were not a casino. In fact, the C in CFL stands for "charity case"; most of the league has been bankrupt at least once in the last 20 years.

Let's look at the main gripes:

1. "the Deloitte’s Report assumed more than $2,000,000 dollars of current Tiger-Cat revenues (such as some of our ticket revenues and some of our corporate sponsorship revenues) were expected to be used by the City to cover new Stadium operating costs on an ongoing basis in the West Harbour."

This could be read any number of different ways, and he's not especially clear. If display advertising is to be sold inside the stadium, it seems reasonable that it be divvied up among stadium stakeholders -- unless, perhaps, it only appears during Ticat games. Box sponsorship is a little trickier on this count, but Bob's preference speaks to the entitlement that the Cats have displayed in recent months. Even so, using the teams' current fan support as a yardstick is a bad idea because it can plummet as it has in the past.

2. "The report also suggests that all of the naming rights revenue for the stadium should belong to the City, although the City has no experience in selling naming rights successfully, and are proposing a location for the stadium where naming rights will have little value."

A variation on the advertising grumble. Bob'd like to be able to move into your home as a renter -- he just planned on paying rent through the billboard he'd want to erect on your roof. And he was hoping you'd build a larger home near a highway, because that would make the billboard most valuable and easiest to sell to potential clients. So easy and lucrative, in fact, that only the idiot homeowners would have trouble selling the space.

3. "Not unexpectedly, the report assumed a substantial increase in Stadium rent. More surprisingly, the report proposes Tiger-Cat fans pay a per ticket surcharge to the stadium fund. This amounts to the same thing as a special Tiger-Cat tax. Imposing tax increases on money losing businesses is not a reliable source of funds for the City."

So what they need to make money is a Ferrari that costs as much as a Lada. As I've pointed out before, the Cats lost several thousand season ticket holders when they adjusted their prices to correspond with the reality of IW operating costs. Now they want immunity from the costs of a new home because paying their way would cut their season ticket holders to the bone.

The Mayor has a news conference starting right about now. We'll see where that goes.

[Berklon]

G&M has a little piece about the situation:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/unwritten-rules/build-it-for-football/article1558941/

[thistleclub]

The City's approval of Future Fund ransacking for this project was staked in part on brownfield remediation and downtown renewal. Whatever you think about the second premise, it would have achieved at least one of those aims.

Some face-saving suggestions?

The city defers to the Cats' business analysis and agrees to an East Harbour build -- but remediates the Rheem lands to residential quality and tacks that amount onto the $50M the Cats will be expected to pay.

As for naming rights, sell to the highest bidder and split the revenues proportionately between the stakeholders.

As for rent, give the team the first year at Ivor Wynne rent levels and delay having them pay the real cost of tenancy if they make the Grey Cup finals at the end of that first year. Roll over the incentive annually until they crap out of the Cup finals, at which point they can try incorporating fiscal reality into their ticket pricing.

[thistleclub]

Statement by Fred Eisenberger, Mayor of the City of Hamilton, concerning the West Harbour Pan Am stadium and the Hamilton Tiger Cats Organization, May 6, 2010:

The City’s involvement in the Pan Am Games is an important initiative. We’ve always believed that this is about building community and leveraging this investments with our many other investments.

This is about more than just a two-week sporting event, and more than a professional football franchise. This is about the community, and community development. This is about what’s best for the people of Hamilton – today and into the future.

To respond to some of the concerns raised earlier today in the media and by one of our partners, I want to reassure the community that we are moving full steam ahead on the West Harbour site, and we will not waiver from that because it is best for Hamilton.

The community is behind the West Harbour site. The Hamilton Chamber of Commerce, the Jobs and Prosperity Collaborative, and hundreds of private citizens and business leaders are behind it because it is best for the community.

The West Harbour stadium location is best situated for people to access the stadium by taking public transit including GO Transit and eventually the Rapid Transit line planned for the downtown.

A West Harbour stadium location is within short walking distance of hundreds of existing parking spaces which can be used at no additional cost to the taxpayers.

As for the Hamilton Tiger Cats, I want the public to know that we are committed to ensuring that the necessary conditions are put in place in the council-approved West harbour stadium to help the TigerCats achieve success.

We have been working diligently to find common ground with the TigerCats so today’s revelation from Owner Bob Young that the team will not play at a West Harbour Stadium is disappointing to say the least.

Bob Young and the TigerCats are on record as saying they would work with the City on “any site”. Up to now, we have been proceeding on that basis.

At the same time, it is important for the public to know that the Hamilton Tiger Cats is a tenant that the taxpayers subsidize to the tune of $1.3 million per year.

The West Harbour site was confirmed by council two years ago and was part of the Pan Am bid book. It was reconfirmed by council 90 days ago.

Statements made by Bob Young only talk about what is best for the Tiger Cats organization. There is no mention of the community. Bob Young needs to understand that the community is important and the purpose of this project is community building.

Bob Young’s statement that there has been no collaboration is puzzling. Scott Mitchell has been a member of the Pan Am Advisory Group since the very beginning. As recently as two weeks ago, I met with Scott Mitchell of the Hamilton Tiger Cats and we re-affirmed that we would continue talking and working together. It is hard to reconcile this with the statements made today by Mr. Young.

It is important to know that the Pan Am HostCo has imposed a May 17 deadline for site verification and as a key partner, the City is required to meet that deadline. I assure you that we will meet that deadline.

I want everyone to know that progress on the West Harbour site is well advanced.

Today, I would like to announce that, together with the City Manager and the City’s Pan Am staff team, I will be hosting a Pan Am Community Engagement Session – which will include the TigerCats and other stakeholders – to review the benefits of the West Harbour site, and the long-term benefits of revitalizing the West Harbour precinct. We’ll be providing more details as plans are firmed up.

[markbarbera]

Mayor Eisenberberger would have been much better served to be more conciliatory in his statement. Like it or not, the Ticats are a key item in making this (or any civic stadium) a viable endeavor. How effective would the West Harbour stadium be at community building without the Ticats as a tenant? If they are not there, then the city loses bigtime on this deal.

Some thoughts on a few exerpts from his statement:

The community is behind the West Harbour site. The Hamilton Chamber of Commerce, the Jobs and Prosperity Collaborative, and hundreds of private citizens and business leaders are behind it because it is best for the community.

The support statement is overstated. The chamber supports this site out by default, not for its individual merit, but because it was not the airport site. Who are the business leaders behind this project? Names? Any of them willing and able to buy a money-losing CFL franchise? With over 500,000 taxpaying citizens in Hamilton, saying hundreds support this site is not a strong argument in its favour. And the community is not behind the site, just ask Bob Bratina about that.

The West Harbour stadium location is best situated for people to access the stadium by taking public transit including GO Transit and eventually the Rapid Transit line planned for the downtown.

This is a stretch. Hamilton GO Centre is two kilometres away from the site (30 minute walk), but the GO bus does make a stop at Main and Caroline, which is just one kilometre (15 min walk) from the site. The B-Line will get no closer than the GO bus. The A-line may get closer as it is planned for James, but Metrolinx still has A-Line far off in the horizon (2030?)

A West Harbour stadium location is within short walking distance of hundreds of existing parking spaces which can be used at no additional cost to the taxpayers.

How does the preservation of our existing glut of surface area parking contribute to community building, Mayor Fred? Everyone fine with Bay and Main remaining a parking lot for the long-term?

As for the Hamilton Tiger Cats, I want the public to know that we are committed to ensuring that the necessary conditions are put in place in the council-approved West harbour stadium to help the TigerCats achieve success.

How, by increasing available parking lots or widening the access roads to accomodate gameday traffic? How does this reconcile with council's committment not to widen area roads to acomodate the stadium? Strathcona residents, you still fine with Locke North and Barton East being redesigned to be similar to York Blvd? How do you correct the visibility conundrum? A really high flashing neon sign?

I fear too much faith is being put in this stadium being a catalyst for "community building" in the area of the west harbour, whatever is meant by such a statement. Exactly what kind of community does a stadium build, anyway? What community did it build at Cannon and Sherman? How will West Harbour be different from Ivor Wynne?

A stadium can complement and enhance an existing community, but it cannot build a community on its own. Now that the stadium will not even have the Ticats as tenants, whatever draw the stadium would have post Pan Am is gone. A West Harbour stadium as it stands today will be a money-sucking white elephant. The only positive would be the remediation of contaminated lands. Better to scale down the plans so the stadium is a temporary structure with post Pan Am redevelopment of the site as urban residential surrounding a central parkland. Because, as it stands today, a west harbour stadium without the Ticats is nothing but a joke. A big expensive money pit of a joke.

[SteelTown]

Bob Young should fire someone seriously. He's way too late to make any protest. I'd target Scott Mitchell, he's been part of the Pan Am Committee since the start and now they want a 90 day moratorium yet Scott should already know that there's a May 17th deadline for site verification.

[thurmas]

being a winnipeger i find this baffling the ti-cats desperatley need a new ballpark where else are they going to move? I truly doubt the ti-cats would lose $7 million in A NEW BALLPARK there is always a novelty when new stadiums open and it would occur to the ti-cats it would probably boost their attendance by 5,000- 10,000 fans. Bob you seem to be a pretty shitty owner if you are able to lose $7 million in a new stadium and also in 2 years the cfl will have a new tv deal that will probably close to double the current pay out cfl teams receive. Go back Bob and sign on because ivor wynn is going to collapse and the ti-cats deserve better than the dump that is ivor wynn.

[bigguy1231]

Even if that means the Ticats leaving Hamilton? He's not going to foot the bill alone, heck no CFL owner has ever built their own stadium. So I guess you're cool with the Ticats heading off to Burlington or elsewhere, leaving that beloved West Harbour stadium as one big old white elephant money pit post Pan-Am...

Think about it. We are building a 15 thousand seat stadium, it's going to be a white elephant no matter what. Even if they up the seating to 25 thousand it will be basically useless for anything but the Ti Cats. It's not going to attract concerts, it will be too small.

As for the Ti Cats leaving town I say see ya. Who's going to put up the money to build a stadium in Burlington. It certainly won't be The Ti Cats. If they had the money to influence where the stadium will be located they should have gave the city an indication of how much they were willing to contribute. Up until now they have not. They can't even make money in a stadium that they get for free basically. Why would they think that they could make money by building a stadium outside the city away from their fan base that they will actually have to pay for.

[markbarbera]

Bob Young should fire someone seriously. He's way too late to make any protest. I'd target Scott Mitchell, he's been part of the Pan Am Committee since the start and now they want a 90 day moratorium yet Scott should already know that there's a May 17th deadline for site verification.

The May 17th deadline is an artificial deadline. A 90 day extension is not unreasonable.

Eisenberger was anything but genuine when he claimed in that statement that the Ticats' concerns were not expressed until recently. It has been a poorly kept secret for years that the Ticats were lukewarm to a west harbour location. The city knew the Ticats were not happy with the West Harbour option from the early onset. Until recently, the Ticats kept their concerns within closed doors. The Ticats only took their concerns public as it became obvious their concerns were falling on deaf ears when council voted for west harbour and refused any other potential site locations.

[markbarbera]

Think about it. We are building a 15 thousand seat stadium, it's going to be a white elephant no matter what. Even if they up the seating to 25 thousand it will be basically useless for anything but the Ti Cats. It's not going to attract concerts, it will be too small.

As for the Ti Cats leaving town I say see ya. Who's going to put up the money to build a stadium in Burlington. It certainly won't be The Ti Cats. If they had the money to influence where the stadium will be located they should have gave the city an indication of how much they were willing to contribute. Up until now they have not. They can't even make money in a stadium that they get for free basically. Why would they think that they could make money by building a stadium outside the city away from their fan base that they will actually have to pay for.

If you sincerely think the west harbour stadium is a white elephant regardless of the Ticats' tenancy why in God's name are we building it?

I do not share your cavalier attitude about the Ticats' presence in Hamilton. They are an integral part of civic pride and morale, and the city would suffer greatly from its absence.

What stadium is the Ticats getting for free? Young is bringing $50 million to the party. And who's to say Young would want to keep the team here after these developments? Eisenberger's attitude must have negatively affected Young's loyalty to this city. There are plenty of cities in this nation that would open their chequebook to welcome a CFL franchise. Halifax springs to mind immediately. Closer to home, ther's Vaughan, Waterloo, London. And a major corporate partner would leap at a partnership opportunity on a stadium in a decent location.

This city excells at screwing itself over.

[SteelTown]

"Young is bringing $50 million to the party" Any proof of that? Show me the money.

Bob Young was anything but genuine when he claimed "would work with the city on ‘any site.'"

I highly doubt there would be any city in Canada lined up to cough up $125 million for a stadium. Federal and provincial funding would obviously die if the stadium isn't built in Hamilton.

I find it highly suspicious there's zero mention about the Ticat's business plan for the stadium. Whatever happened to finding out about the season ticket holders poll results?

[SteelTown]

If for some reason Council does want to impose a 90 day moratorium and look at alternative sites it would require a 2/3 majority for council to reverse it's previous decision. That's pretty much impossible at this moment.

[Berklon]

Even if they up the seating to 25 thousand it will be basically useless for anything but the Ti Cats. It's not going to attract concerts, it will be too small.

Why would it be too small for concerts? If arenas are big enough, then why wouldn't a 25k seat stadium be big enough.

If you're just going by outdoor venues - the Molson Amphitheatre holds 16,000 and gets a good number of concerts of pretty decent acts.