Tim Hortons Field | 40m | ? | Complete

[realcity]

Why the hate for PanAm.? It's going to be awesome and well viewed. The athletes you will be watching in London in a few weeks will be the same athletes (the one's from the Western Hemisphere) that will be competing here. The same gymnasts, the same track and field, the same volleyball almost that is the same, 3 years is forever in an elite athletes life but if not watch them perform in Rio the following year at the Olympics.

These are first class athletes. The stadium will be awesome, the games will be a success. O I get it, still bitter because the stadium isn't getting built in the ridiculous spot that you wanted. Glad I don't have to work or be married to any of you. It's done, but now you want PanAm and the stadium to suck because you didn't get your location.

Just think if Brazil wins the Fifa World Cup in 2014 (they are hosting it) it will be 90% the exact same team competing here in Hamilton the next summer. We could be hosting the World Cup champs or close to it, Brazil, Mexico, Argentina, and USA. If you can't get excited over that, then don't come to our stadium. It's going to be awesome. Too bad for the haters.

[realcity]

As for traffic surrounding a stadium on game day. Every city in the world experiences this, it's just something everyone deals with. Ever tried to leave TO after a Rapters, Leafs or Jays game? Sometimes two of those teams will be playing the same evening. Piss and moan, learn the schedules, pay attention to sports and you would enjoy it.

[realcity]

As for parking on lawns? How many of you have been to a TiCat game in the last decade?? There is barely (actually non that I see) anymore of that. There is plenty of 5$ parking all off Barton in the malls and industry. For a 6 minute walk to the stadium, parking is not an issue. If you can walk 10 minutes then you're golden, tons of street parking. This complaint is from the same WH supporters who think a 25 minute walk from Gore Park to Barton/Tiffany is acceptable. ? Yes it is 25 minutes from King/James to WH, it's a fricken hike, but let's still call it downtown and for that matter call it waterfront too, when it's not on the water but separated by a rail yard then a man-made (Bayfront) Parkland before you get to anything that could resemble water.

All in the name of getting nice B-roll of the stadium. Please, have you guys ever watched a fricken CFL game? The b-roll is of the fans and the inside the stadium. Nothing is stopping TSN to go and shoot nice b-roll at the waterfront anyway if they wanted, but that's not the point. The view is, and most importantly what's being seen on the field. TSN is not a nature channel to show pleasant parks and trees and swans in water... it's about football, always has been. That's something the WH supporters never understood. It's about sports. If TH Hamilton wants to put out a video on our urban nature than go ahead, it's not up to TSN to promote Hamilton as a tourist hotspot. I like the industrial scenery, It's something that you don't see in any other city. Actually I hope they show our firey smoke stacks in the B-roll, tell the country Hamilton is proud of making stuff.

[Berklon]

These are first class athletes. The stadium will be awesome, the games will be a success. O I get it, still bitter because the stadium isn't getting built in the ridiculous spot that you wanted. Glad I don't have to work or be married to any of you. It's done, but now you want PanAm and the stadium to suck because you didn't get your location.

Wow, you're unbelievably annoying.

Anywhere downtown is better than the dump it's currently in. Enough said.

Pan-Am games? I work in Toronto and no-one I've talked to gives a flying f*ck about these games. These are Torontonians and they don't care. Outside of the athletes and their families, no-one cares. NOBODY.

The whole thing is embarrassing... and so are your posts.

[mattgrande]

It's done, but now you want PanAm and the stadium to suck because you didn't get your location.


I don't think you're describing anyone here.


Just think if Brazil wins the Fifa World Cup in 2014 (they are hosting it) it will be 90% the exact same team competing here in Hamilton the next summer. We could be hosting the World Cup champs or close to it, Brazil, Mexico, Argentina, and USA. If you can't get excited over that, then don't come to our stadium. It's going to be awesome. Too bad for the haters.

I am excited about that. I do hope that the stadium looks nice. That doesn't change the fact that they've chosen the worst location that was looked at with almost no consultation or input from anyone.

I was a West Harbour supporter, but I understood the arguments behind the East Mountain location. Close to highways, access to parking, spin off developments, of course the Cats want that. But this location is further from the highway than the West Harbour. There will be very little parking there. There's basically no space for new businesses. We won't be able to hold concerts. We're losing Brian Timmis Field, the baseball diamonds, & (I believe) Jimmy Thompson pool. It's a terrible fucking location for a stadium.

As for parking on lawns? How many of you have been to a TiCat game in the last decade?? There is barely (actually non that I see) anymore of that.


I've been to two games: The preseason, and the home opener. I saw it at both.


This complaint is from the same WH supporters who think a 25 minute walk from Gore Park to Barton/Tiffany is acceptable. ? Yes it is 25 minutes from King/James to WH, it's a fricken hike


It's like 15, tops. And even still, what does that matter? It's a 45 minute walk from King & Games to Ivor Wynne.

[realcity]

Berklon. No one cares? Maybe because the Games are 3 years away???? Just wait for the band wagoners, 3 months before, the Games will be huge. The same went for the Road Races in 2003. Sorry, but I know you want the Games to fail for some reason.

Ivor Wynne is a dump? It's a typical dense urban neighbourhood represented by working class citizens. But WH isn't a toxic wasteland that everyone wants to develop in.? WH is toxic wasteland swamp... and will remain undeveloped for generations. Don't even touch the water, let alone use it for recreational uses.

And yet Ottawa St, Gage Park and Ivor Wynne new stadium are transforming the area, and so-called Hamilton supporters want it all to fail. "Wah, I want it in my Locke neighbourhood". "So I can have my property value increase and hopefully make enough to buy back into Toronto"> go cry over an organic brewed beer loser.

Matte I live there, and don't see the lawn parking, I suspected some people still do it, but most people now care about their lawns... it might not even be game day parking, the houses that do that, do it everyday, because the lack of parking on any given day.

I will do a study with a video. I did it once and didn't record it, just for my own purpose during the debates. To get from King/James to Barton/Tiffany is at least a 25 minute walk. And that;s not to say there is any parking in the Gore area, that's just assuming you were coming from hotels in the core if there was any. Try the walk, I will and I will tape it on a stop watch to prove it. Not to mention it is a horrible walk along Bay Street. It felt like walking in Bagdad it was that pleasant.

Further, I will walk from K/J to Ivor Wynne... that will be about 45 mintues I'm guessing. We're splitting hairs over a 20 minute walk distance. But keep in mind there traffic and transit flow mostly runs east/west in this city. What bus would I take to WH from Gore? How many choices of busses can I take from Gore to go east, Wilson, Main, Barton? I don;t know, but if we ever get an LRT it will be connecting East and West Hamilton. Not the WH... unless they ramp up a Barton transit again. It was once the busiest stretches in the city. Barton transit was on rails.

[markbarbera]

But this location is further from the highway than the West Harbour.
Actually, in a way, it is closer to highway access (the Burlington Street overpass for all intents and purposes is a highway access point not unlike the Gardiner Expressway in Toronto). Granted, it is not as close as the Ticats wanted as they were looking for direct highway access, but it is still better access than what would have been offered at Barton/Tiffany.

There will be very little parking there.
From what I understand, parking will be at least the equivalent as to what was available at the failed WH location.

There's basically no space for new businesses.

There is a unique opportunity to redevelop the moribound Barton Street commercial area in the northern part of the stadium precinct, as well as along King Street at the soutern end of the precinct. I don't know when you last travelled along Barton between Ottawa and Sherman, but there is certainly lots of opportunity to redevelop empty/abandoned businesses along this stretch. Heck, there may even be an opportunity to redevelop the old Consumers Glass property as part of the new stadium precinct.

We won't be able to hold concerts.
Of course we can. The only thing keeping concerts out right now is the fact that IWS is not up to code to host concerts. There was going to be a Faith Hill/Tim Mcgraw concert there in 2008 but it was nixed because it would be too expensive to bring IWS up to code (http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/161594--mcgraw-hill-show-at-ivor-wynne-gets-the-boot-over-costly-upgrades). The new stadium will be designed to be fully up to code for both sport and entertainment events.

We're losing Brian Timmis Field, the baseball diamonds, & (I believe) Jimmy Thompson pool. It's a terrible fucking location for a stadium.

Brain Timmis is the only thing being lost, and a new site for a comparable field in Ward three is being reviewed (Timmis was also well overdue for an upgrade and if I remember correctly the cost of a replacement field will be covered by Ticats). There are no plans thus far for anything south of Cannon to be removed, so the ball diamonds and the pool are not affected. Once we see the precinct plan come September, we'll know better. If they end up being removed I have absolutely no problem with that if they are being replaced somewhere else in Ward 3 in the same manner as Brian Timmis is being replaced.

IMHO there are plenty of opportunities to make the new IWS Stadium precinct work exceptionally well, but the bitter division caused through the protracted stadium location debate has enbittered some so much that they now simply refuse to acknowledge the opportunity to redefine and re-energize a community that is in desperate need of rejuvination.

[mattgrande]

There is a unique opportunity to redevelop the moribound Barton Street commercial area in the northern part of the stadium precinct, as well as along King Street at the soutern end of the precinct. I don't know when you last travelled along Barton between Ottawa and Sherman, but there is certainly lots of opportunity to redevelop empty/abandoned businesses along this stretch. Heck, there may even be an opportunity to redevelop the old Consumers Glass property as part of the new stadium precinct.


Yeah, I suppose you're right. I should've said "I'd be awfully surprised if there's much new business." I hope I'm wrong on this count, but I'm not optimistic.

I was under the impression that concerts weren't allowed due to noise issues. The Hill/McGraw concert is news to me.

[bigguy1231]

Yeah, I suppose you're right. I should've said "I'd be awfully surprised if there's much new business." I hope I'm wrong on this count, but I'm not optimistic.

I was under the impression that concerts weren't allowed due to noise issues. The Hill/McGraw concert is news to me.


Barton St. will not be revived. There's been a stadium there for 80 years and what do we have right now. So you are right there won't be any new businesses.

As for the concert issue, they can have concerts but what are they going to book into a 22,000 seat stadium. Certainly not anyone that would be good enough to sell the place out. Big acts go to big stadiums not minor league stadiums like this. There's no money to be made.

[markbarbera]

While a stadium has been here for 80 years, there has never been even the slightest attempt to leverage the stadium to benefit the commercial area around it. Now, for the first time ever, the area has a planning strategy based on a sports and entertainment district. The plan is under tight wraps until the stadium contract is awarded.

Come September 23rd we'll know what the stadium will look stand what is planned for the precinct as a whole. I have a gut feeling that we' going to see the seat count come in at a different total than what is currently being cited.

As far as concerts go, mega-outdoor stadium concerts are more the exception to the rule these days. I wouldn't expect more than 2 or 3 concerts during the summer months, if that. Having said that, the size of the stadium is not going to exclude it from being a concert venue, and let's not forget a concert will have additional attendance capacity on the field in addition to the permanent seats in the stands.

[bigguy1231]

While a stadium has been here for 80 years, there has never been even the slightest attempt to leverage the stadium to benefit the commercial area around it. Now, for the first time ever, the area has a planning strategy based on a sports and entertainment district. The plan is under tight wraps until the stadium contract is awarded.

Come September 23rd we'll know what the stadium will look stand what is planned for the precinct as a whole. I have a gut feeling that we' going to see the seat count come in at a different total than what is currently being cited.

As far as concerts go, mega-outdoor stadium concerts are more the exception to the rule these days. I wouldn't expect more than 2 or 3 concerts during the summer months, if that. Having said that, the size of the stadium is not going to exclude it from being a concert venue, and let's not forget a concert will have additional attendance capacity on the field in addition to the permanent seats in the stands.

Your dreaming.

They can make all the plans they want, if people with money don't want to spend it there then there will be no development.

As for the concerts. the promoters won't even look at the place, unless the city subsidizes them which won't happen.

[mattgrande]

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/757968--cannon-street-closure-floated-for-stadium-neighbourhood-revamp


Cannon Street closure floated for stadium neighbourhood revamp

The city should close part of Cannon Street to create a walkable “civic space” in front of a rebuilt Ivor Wynne stadium, says a new consultant’s report.

...

Other major suggestions include a seniors’ centre, more green space and the conversion of closing neighbourhood schools into new recreational facilities.

[Frankenrogers]

Its too bad that Hamilton didn't try to leverage the games further to become an amateur sports hub. Get the world class facilities here and once the athletes come to train it could help with the image of Hamilton as a healthy place to be and we could be in a position to host Canadian tryouts/qualifiers for all sorts of sports.

I was in Lake Placid talking with the director of their sports authority a few years ago and they employed over 5,000 people.

[Jon Dalton]

Does this type of planning ever work? The city is trying to tell businesses where they should go. Business tends to figure that out on its own. We have seen enough with the city's downtown redevelopment efforts over the years to know that it is extremely difficult to manipulate a fragile economy to achieve a predetermined result. There are always unintended consequences.

If copps coliseum with its multiple uses, Jackson square adjacent and the whole civic square series of developments have failed to stimulate enough demand for one lousy bar rigt across the street, what can we expect from a stadium surrounded by residential and strip malls even if we can squeeze out a few marginal uses besides football? I'm with the big guy on this one - it's a pipe dream.

[CaptainKirk]

Does this type of planning ever work? The city is trying to tell businesses where they should go. Business tends to figure that out on its own.
Businesses? Did I miss that in the article? I thought this was about the neighbourhood and recreation facilities.


If copps coliseum with its multiple uses, Jackson square adjacent and the whole civic square series of developments have failed to stimulate enough demand for one lousy bar rigt across the street

Again, not sure what you're getting at. There are hundreds of bars/restaurants downtown. Way more than any other area of the city. I patronize many of them often.

http://www.downtownhamilton.org/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2012/03/Spring-Restaurant-Guide.pdf

[durandy]

I think Jon's referring to the discussion about economic spinoffs from the stadium.

West Harbour was a stupid place for a stadium but a worthy place to spend 45 million dollars of public money. The people that are still upset about this were somehow deluded at some point into thinking that a 45 million subsidy for football wasn't so bad if it was paired with urban renewal. As for the Pan-am games, aren't they just a trial run for the olympics? People just bid on them to improve their chances to get the big games. So if this could lead to that in the GTHA, then it will be money very well spent.

[CaptainKirk]

West Harbour was a stupid place for a stadium but a worthy place to spend 45 million dollars of public money. The people that are still upset about this were somehow deluded at some point into thinking that a 45 million subsidy for football wasn't so bad if it was paired with urban renewal.

Colour me delusional.::ahhh::crazy2::crazy:

[realcity]

Durandy you are exactly correct. The WH people are all for the public investment into a stadium (that they will never go to) as long as it was in their location of choice... Barton/Tiffany.

But put the stadium anywhere else in the City and they don't support it.

[realcity]

from the ticats site

-------
Tiger-Cats fans,

I am getting very excited for the upcoming 2012 season of Tiger-Cats football and our Final Season in Ivor Wynne! I'm even more excited about the new Hamilton Stadium that will open in 2014, for the 2015 Pan Am Games.

As you would expect we are working diligently on our plan for next year's 2013 season while Hamilton’s new, world-class stadium is being built on the Ivor Wynne site. The central part of this plan has been of course to find a suitable place to play. We have spoken to many Municipalities, and Universities, who have offered to help.

Our preferred solution was to play many of our 2013 home games in Hamilton at McMaster’s Ron Joyce Stadium. Unfortunately, yesterday McMaster University officials concluded they will be unable to accommodate us. This was disappointing to us as our goal was to find a location as convenient to our fans as possible.

The Tiger-Cats remain steadfast in our commitment to keep our home games as close to Hamilton as possible, and fortunately, we have plenty of time to find a positive solution for our fans. We will continue to work on a resolution for next season and will fully communicate our plan once it is finalized in the coming months. We plan to find a solution that will provide our fans with the ability to support their beloved Ticats while putting our team in position for another successful year on the field in 2013.

In the meantime, we are looking forward to the fun and excitement that will come with the upcoming Final Season of Ivor Wynne Stadium presented by Tim Hortons. While last year's team was very good, this year's Hamilton Tiger-Cats are going to be even better!

Oskee-Wee-Wee,

Bob Young
Caretaker
----------

Thanks Bob for taking care of our beloved Cats. Our new stadium will be awesome.

[matt602]

Thanks, Caretaker. My worries are put to rest. Vive Le Ti-Cats.

[Jon Dalton]

Businesses? Did I miss that in the article? I thought this was about the neighbourhood and recreation facilities.




Again, not sure what you're getting at. There are hundreds of bars/restaurants downtown. Way more than any other area of the city. I patronize many of them often.

http://www.downtownhamilton.org/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2012/03/Spring-Restaurant-Guide.pdf

I was talking about the 'stadium precinct' idea. It is supposed to stimulate businesses such as restaurants and bars and entertainment.

I live and work downtown as well and enjoy the many great bars and restaurants here. However I don't see any direct correlation between Copps Coliseum and any downtown establishments. They are able to exist downtown because it's downtown, not because there's a stadium there.

[CaptainKirk]

I was talking about the 'stadium precinct' idea. It is supposed to stimulate businesses such as restaurants and bars and entertainment.

First time I've read that. That was never my impression.

I live and work downtown as well and enjoy the many great bars and restaurants here. However I don't see any direct correlation between Copps Coliseum and any downtown establishments. They are able to exist downtown because it's downtown, not because there's a stadium there.

Not sure how you come to that conclusion. To me, it's all part of the downtown: arenas, bars, restaurants, library, market, theatres, shops, events, etc. It's one reason why I thought the stadium should have been located downtown/WH. It could have contributed to, and benefited from, all those other wonderful downtown amenities that make a downtown a great place to be.

[bigguy1231]

I was talking about the 'stadium precinct' idea. It is supposed to stimulate businesses such as restaurants and bars and entertainment.

I live and work downtown as well and enjoy the many great bars and restaurants here. However I don't see any direct correlation between Copps Coliseum and any downtown establishments. They are able to exist downtown because it's downtown, not because there's a stadium there.

Unfortunately the people that are taking care of the planning for this "stadium precinct" have no idea what it actually is supposed to be.

It's not seniors centres or recreation facilities or mixed use housing it's supposed to be commercial development. Unfortunately they are sticking the stadium right back in the middle of a residential neighborhood with no chance of any commercial development happening. There will be zero spinoff from the taxpayers investment unless you want to include the additional tax dollars they are going to spend to build these other facilities totally unrelated to the stadium.

[CaptainKirk]

Unfortunately the people that are taking care of the planning for this "stadium precinct" have no idea what it actually is supposed to be.

It's not seniors centres or recreation facilities or mixed use housing it's supposed to be commercial development. Unfortunately they are sticking the stadium right back in the middle of a residential neighborhood with no chance of any commercial development happening. There will be zero spinoff from the taxpayers investment unless you want to include the additional tax dollars they are going to spend to build these other facilities totally unrelated to the stadium.

Don't think it's the planners fault. Don't think they'd want to plan something like this.

No, this was handed to them via a dumb council decision.

[realcity]

Stuart St and Caroline St is not "downtown".

It is not "waterfront" either.

[CaptainKirk]

Stuart St and Caroline St is not "downtown".

It is not "waterfront" either.

Honestly, I never really understood these types of comments, Is it supposed to be making some sort of argument or claim? Call it whatever you want.



Doesn't really matter who considers what is "downtown" or what is "West Harbour". Fact is, Barton btwn Hess and Bay is a few blocks and a few minutes walk from James St N., Hess Village, Jackson Sq area, Discovery Drive, the waterfront and lots of downtown parking.

And to clarify when I say WH/Downtown I mean WH=Barton/Tiffany and area (Central Park, City warehouse, SJAM secondary school , and downtown= any other downtown location. They all blend and pretty much contribute to, and benefit from the whole downtown/city centre amenities.

[markbarbera]

Why are we still talking about the failed Barton and Tiffany location on the Pan Am Stadium thread? After nearly 1600 posts on this topic, everyone already has a pretty clear idea of how different people feel about the location, so why keep harping on about it? I get it, you'd rather it had been at Barton and Tiffany, but it's not going to be there. It's going to be at the IWS site.

Whether or not it was the right decision is a moot point at this stage. The decision has been made - it's a decision no-one is completely happy about - but it is after all a compromise location. It's time to make the best of the present situation and stop living in the past. Further coulda/woulda talk is completely pointless.

[CaptainKirk]

Why are we still talking about the failed Barton and Tiffany location on the Pan Am Stadium thread? After nearly 1600 posts on this topic, everyone already has a pretty clear idea of how different people feel about the location, so why keep harping on about it? I get it, you'd rather it had been at Barton and Tiffany, but it's not going to be there. It's going to be at the IWS site.

Whether or not it was the right decision is a moot point at this stage. The decision has been made - it's a decision no-one is completely happy about - but it is after all a compromise location. It's time to make the best of the present situation and stop living in the past. Further coulda/woulda talk is completely pointless.

Feel free to ignore such posts, just as I do with posts and topics that don't interest me. I have no need to tell others what to discuss and what not to discuss.

A little concerning is that fact that U of Guelph just said no to the Tiger-Cats as well. What happens if UWO also says no?

Having no place to play in 2013 could be an insurmountable problem. Remember, at one time the IWS site was deemed inadequate, and that changed.

If it's not too late, perhaps re-examining and re-planning the WH option might be in order especially with all the recent talk of relocating the railyards once the lease expires in 2018.

[markbarbera]

I had heard rumblings that McMaster's abrupt refusal to host the Ticats for the 2013 season was the result of some backroom wrangling by WH supporters with clout at Mac as part of an attempt to force such a scenario but I had thought that was too silly to be true.

Don't grasp to false hopes - if no local site is secured for the 2013 season then it will be a season of all 'away' games for the Ticats. It'll be a tight year for the Ticats financially but I am sure the CFL and/or the city will compensate them for any additional losses should that happen :)

As far as potential relocation of rail yards go, that's all the more reason not to place a stadium at Barton and Tiffany. The land would be far too valuable to waste on a public facility like a stadium.

As a final comment, I would never presume to tell you or anyone lese here what to post and what not to post. If you wish to waste time repeating the same lamentations over and over again, feel free. It's just pretty monotonous hearing the same whinging about West Harbour again and again here. This thread is supposed to be about the Pan Am stadium after all, not the West Harbour so just show a bit of consideration for those who want to discuss the actual stadium and not some long lost pipedream. To paraphrase Mel Lastman, the WH site for a stadium is "D-E-D Dead"

[CaptainKirk]

I had heard rumblings that McMaster's abrupt refusal to host the Ticats for the 2013 season was the result of some backroom wrangling by WH supporters with clout at Mac as part of an attempt to force such a scenario but I had thought that was too silly to be true.

Really? Hard to believe, but nothing would surprise me. That would suggest then that it's not too late. Can you elabourate any more on these rumblings and where you read or heard them? Interesting stuff.

Don't grasp to false hopes - if no local site is secured for the 2013 season then it will be a season of all 'away' games for the Ticats. It'll be a tight year for the Ticats financially but I am sure the CFL and/or the city will compensate them for any additional losses should that happen :)

Not grasping at false hopes. I still think it's going at the current IWS site. I was just concerned with U of Guleph saying "no", what would happen if Western also says no. I'm not so sure an away season is feasable. the Tiger-Cats have indicated that they do not want to do that, and I'm not as sure as you are that the league would foot such a bill, but you never know.

Anyhoo, getting back to no viable local site for 2013 is what prompted me to throw out the WH option, again considering two things:

Possible relocation of rail yards
Reconsideration and acceptance of the current IWS that, at one, time was a 'definite" no as well.


This would allow the Cats to play 2013 at IWS. That's got to save them a significant amount of money and it would also restore a lot of lost goodwill within this community. If you look at a lot of the Spec comments it so sad to see such derision thrown the Tiger-Cats', Bob Young's and Scott Mitchell's way even still after so long.

As far as potential relocation of rail yards go, that's all the more reason not to place a stadium at Barton and Tiffany. The land would be far too valuable to waste on a public facility like a stadium.
That's a huge tract of land with plenty of room for public infrastructure like a stadium. And besides, with that logic ( land value) Confederation Park should then not be considered either. Can't agree with the land value argument

As a final comment, I would never presume to telling you or anyone lese here what to post and what not to post. If you wish to waste time repeating the same lamentations over and over again, feel free. It's just pretty monotonous hearing the same whinging about West Harbour again and again here.

This is about the Pan Am stadium, there is a new angle to this stadium issue in regards to the Ti-Cats' inability to find a temporary home for 2013 so far, and as you just proved with your own statements in regards to the 'rumblings' that you just introduced into the thread.

I think it's all interesting stuff

This thread is supposed to be about the Pan Am stadium after all, not the West Harbour so just show a bit of consideration for those who want to discuss the actual stadium and not some long lost pipedream.
it is you that needs to show consideration and allow me to discuss the topic of the Pan Am stadium. the topic is not "the IWS site". I am discussing the Pan Am stadium


To paraphrase Mel Lastman, the WH site for a stadium is "D-E-D Dead"

And once again, every time I read, or hear that, I'm reminded how that exact same stance was given to the current IWS site, and they both, the city and the Tiger-Cats, blind sided us all (except Lawrence) with their reversal. Precedent is set. They can, and have changed their minds, and yet again, circumstances are a little different now, as pointed out, with regards to rail yards and inability, so far, to secure a temporary 2013 site.

Really, I don't think it would be much of a surprise if they did decide to go to WH, falling back on the "situation has changed" basis.

[matt602]

Why are we still talking about the failed Barton and Tiffany location on the Pan Am Stadium thread? After nearly 1600 posts on this topic, everyone already has a pretty clear idea of how different people feel about the location, so why keep harping on about it? I get it, you'd rather it had been at Barton and Tiffany, but it's not going to be there. It's going to be at the IWS site.

Probably because realcity insists upon dragging it up, over, and over, and over again in reference to "those WH people". Unfortunately nearly every time he does this, he re-ignites the whole pointless debate that ended well over a year ago.

[Berklon]

Probably because realcity insists upon dragging it up, over, and over, and over again in reference to "those WH people". Unfortunately nearly every time he does this, he re-ignites the whole pointless debate that ended well over a year ago.

Definitely.

Does this forum have the block user feature? I can't seem to find it.

Anyway, it wasn't solely always about WH (even though someone likes to keep bringing up WH like it was the only location desired). For me it was "almost anywhere but East Mountain or IWS site". Those were my 2 least favourite locations by far.

They chose what they chose - bad decisions are made all the time, nothing new here. All I can hope is for this waste of money stadium to be cancelled and all affiliation with the Pan-Am games removed.

[realcity]

Lol. "block user"

[SteelTown]

Definitely.

Does this forum have the block user feature? I can't seem to find it.

Yes, at the top you'll find User CP. Click on it and you'll find Edit Ignore List on the left side.

[bluevue]

A few games in Halifax, and added games as 'home' games in Toronto at Rogers Center (not against the Argos)...that would show the real supporters of the team...making the trek to Toronto to support your home town cats while playing in another location. Let's show them that it doesn't matter where they play...we are the best fans in the league and could consider selling seasons for these 'home' games in Toronto. Just sayin...let's not make it an issue of where they play to not support them.

[CaptainKirk]

Just sayin...let's not make it an issue of where they play to not support them.

Sadly though it is an issue. With the rejection of McMaster, and now Guelph, the choice of rebuilding at the current IWS is providing a challenge that has been lingering for too long now.

I really hope the financial damage that will be caused by the 2013 temporary location is sustainable.

If not, what then?

[realcity]

[QUOTE=realcity;5763869]Lol. "block user"

[markbarbera]

The impact of one season being played as "all away" is being exaggerated greatly. The nine games in question could be played as far away as Moncton or as close by as Toronto's BMO Field or the Rogers Centre. From a fanbase point of view, the impact will be minimal, seeing as there is such a thing as television coverage. The financial impact is the lost gate revenue for these nine games. That is a cost that the Ticats can absorb as part of the overall relocation costs, and the CFL has already expressed willingness to help mitigate the impact for the Ticats if it comes to that.

[CaptainKirk]

The financial impact is the lost gate revenue for these nine games. That is a cost that the Ticats can absorb as part of the overall relocation costs, and the CFL has already expressed willingness to help mitigate the impact for the Ticats if it comes to that.

Gald to hear it.

So no worries then.

***edit*** Plus the cost of setting up a temporary home. Apparently the province paid for the Lions' $14m temporary facility.

[coalminecanary]

As for traffic surrounding a stadium on game day. Every city in the world experiences this, it's just something everyone deals with. Ever tried to leave TO after a Rapters, Leafs or Jays game? Sometimes two of those teams will be playing the same evening. Piss and moan, learn the schedules, pay attention to sports and you would enjoy it.

My point is that in other real cities there are alternative ways to get to these events. We have no viable alternative. And we all know that one of Bob's big goals is MORE PARKING. The last thing we should be doing at that spot is encouraging more people to drive. As I said originally, my point is not about the location, it's about the stupidity of not leveraging this whole stadium thing to build better transit to that neighbourhood BEFORE the games.

Why the hate for PanAm.? It's going to be awesome and well viewed.

The only reason most people even know where the last one was held is because they embarrassed themselves by almost hav ing to cancel it due to construction delays. So you'll have to excuse some people for worrying that the only attention we'll get will be over potential embarrassments.



O I get it, still bitter because the stadium isn't getting built in the ridiculous spot that you wanted. Glad I don't have to work or be married to any of you. It's done, but now you want PanAm and the stadium to suck because you didn't get your location.

Woah, slow down there... no one has said anything like this. Anyone who is wary of the potential for success of Pan Am has been wary from the start. The only connection to the West Harbour location is that the people who have always been concerned about pan am being a bad deal figured we should at least leverage some cit building so that we get something positive out of it.

You are the one that keeps bringing West Harbour up. You keep igniting the argument. I think it's time that YOU give it a rest.

[Berklon]

Yes, at the top you'll find User CP. Click on it and you'll find Edit Ignore List on the left side.

Sweet... thanks!

This forum just got a lot less douche-ish now. ;) (Although it's too bad I can still see quoted messages from the undesirables).

[mattgrande]

http://www.cp24.com/news/tories-warn-pan-am-games-costs-could-skyrocket-1.880805


TORONTO -- The Progressive Conservatives are warning that the cost of the 2015 Pan American Games could skyrocket due to Ontario's outdated labour laws.

Opposition Leader Tim Hudak says $155 million is budgeted to renovate Ivor Wynne Stadium in Hamilton, but he believes it could be up to 40 per cent higher.

Ontario is contributing $22 million towards the stadium, on top of the other costs of hosting the Games.

Hudak says the city has an exclusive contract with one carpenters' union, so all construction projects must go through it.

He says closed tendering is an outdated practice that drives up costs, and will inflate the $1.4-billion price tag for the Games.

Charles Sousa, the minister responsible for the Games, says there's appropriate oversight in place to ensure the budget is managed well.

"Let's be clear, we make no apology for bringing the Games to Ontario," he said Monday in a statement that was released before Hudak's news conference.

But the Tories say the budget doesn't include some large costs, such as building the athletes' village -- which falls to the province -- or providing security for the Games.

"The budget itself that they've released is actually woefully inadequate," said Conservative Rod Jackson. "I mean, my high school prom had a more detailed budget than the Pan Am budget has been showing."

The federal and Ontario governments are contributing $500 million each for the Games. Ontario is also kicking in an additional $22 million to renovate Ivor Wynne Stadium.

The fiscal plan for the Games includes a $82 million contingency fund for cost overruns.


(Emphasis mine)

[markbarbera]

AFAIK the IO estimate for the Hamilton Pan Am Stadium already factors in the labour costs. On this count, Hudak is simply scare mongering to reinforce his new anti-labour agenda. If anything, the cost estimate on the stadium is high-balled, not lowballed as Hudak "believes".

[fuller]

Another possibility:

Maybe the current projection is highball for the stadium as it's proposed, but lowball for what will actually be built.

[CaptainKirk]

AFAIK the IO estimate for the Hamilton Pan Am Stadium already factors in the labour costs. On this count, Hudak is simply scare mongering to reinforce his new anti-labour agenda. If anything, the cost estimate on the stadium is high-balled, not lowballed as Hudak "believes".

That's exactly what I thought. Just political rhetoric.

[mattgrande]

AFAIK the IO estimate for the Hamilton Pan Am Stadium already factors in the labour costs. On this count, Hudak is simply scare mongering to reinforce his new anti-labour agenda. If anything, the cost estimate on the stadium is high-balled, not lowballed as Hudak "believes".

Reading about recent construction of similar sized stadiums seem to imply that our price is high balled. I don't trust anything Hudak says, so this is probably the case here.

[SteelTown]

Based on what I read any cost overrun the province will pay for it it entirely.

[bigguy1231]

Hudak's a dick.

[drpgq]

If Hudak does get in, at least Hamilton will get out of the Carpenters ridiculousness. I can't see McGuinty doing anything about it and obviously Horwath won't.

[isaidso]

Even if it does cost $60 million more it wouldn't make an ounce of difference to me. I'd rather than spent the money to build this right. Hamilton will have to make do with this facility for at least the next half century.

[markbarbera]

If Hudak does get in, at least Hamilton will get out of the Carpenters ridiculousness.

Maybe he will repeal the anti-slavery laws too - imagine the money we'd save building the stadium if he did that too!

[drpgq]

Maybe he will repeal the anti-slavery laws too - imagine the money we'd save building the stadium if he did that too!

I'm not a member of the Carpenter's Union, so I would prefer that companies could freely bid on city projects regardless of their employee organization. I'm not sure of what the story is with the stadium (although I am curious), but I was speaking more generally. Further, as a computer vision researcher, I would prefer robots to slaves.

[realcity]

forget about all that. IO is doing the tendering. They shortlisted 3 design build teams last year. They went away and designed something that could be built with $150 million. We'll see the winning design build in a few months.

[realcity]

.

[bigguy1231]

http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/MJL7V7wHFJIL3Rq6cBIXHw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD00MTk7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/http://l.yimg.com/os/152/2012/08/08/AP447413139187-jpg_171152.jpg



This is what the little town of Allen, Texas just built for their high school football team. It cost them $60 million has 18,000 seats and even has corporate boxes. Why are we getting basically the same for $160 miilion and for a professional football team. This city should be very embarassed to be outdone by a high school in small town Texas.

Here's a link to the story and more pictures: http://sports.yahoo.com/photos/high-school-unveils-60m-stadium-1344446688-slideshow/

[CaptainKirk]

It`s got benches for seats.

Hamilton`s stadium will be better than that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd6pTgHN5sY

[bigguy1231]

It`s got benches for seats.

Hamilton`s stadium will be better than that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd6pTgHN5sY

So an extra $10 million for seats with backs, big deal. It's still less than half the price we are paying.

My point is and always has been that we are getting a minor league stadium which will be totally useless for the future needs of this city. That high school in that little town puts this city to shame.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

As a sports fan, I've no issue with benches. Save some money and make the nose-bleeds bleacher seating. Put that saved money towards some other element of the stadium. Football fans shouldn't be leaning back anyway; they should be standing up and screaming at the visiting team.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa121/the_dude1974/HarvardStadium.jpg
Bench seating at Harvard Stadium.

[CaptainKirk]

^^^^Yeah, I'm ok with the bench seating too, but nicer is nicer.


So an extra $10 million for seats with backs, big deal. It's still less than half the price we are paying.



Yes, it is less than half, but we have no detailed account of what either price includes, and there is no way to compare the two stadiums right now, especially since not much is revealed of the high school stadium in Texas and no plans have been revealed yet for Hamilton's.

My point is and always has been that we are getting a minor league stadium which will be totally useless for the future needs of this city. That high school in that little town puts this city to shame.

Why do you think we are getting "a minor league stadium which will be totally useless for the future needs of this city"?

All the accounts I've read indicate Hamilton is getting a top notch modern facility.

[durandy]

I wonder what impact labour laws have on the contract. We have to hire union workers from the brotherhood of carpenters or something. I imagine Texas is a bit different!

[SteelTown]

Our current women's soccer team (got bronze) do they go to Pan Am Games? Be nice to watch them play.

[mattgrande]

Yes, they will (or at least a very similar team will be).

The host country qualifies automatically and, even if they didn't, I believe Canada gets an automatic berth because we won gold at the Guadalajara Pan-Am games.

Edit: I say a "very similar team" because the Olympics have age restrictions (all players must be under 23, except for three players). I'm not sure if the Pan-Am games has the same restriction.

[realcity]

I don;t know how you can judge our stadium when you haven't even seen the plans yet. It will be multi-purpose. And world-class. $150m buys a lot of stadium. And yes we will be hosting practically these same soccer teams that are playing in London (from North, Central and South America). Not to mention the Fifa World Cup is in 2014, and we will be hosting some of those players from Brazil, Argentina, and USA.

If we had track still, we'd have Bolt and Blake here in the city. We also lost swimming so there goes Phelps. At least we'll have our medal winning men and women rowers in St. Catharines. These are the best athletes in the world. This London Olympics might be the best I've ever watched. And some of these same athletes will be here in PanAm 2015.

Just another month until the PanAm stadium is revealed and shuts every IVW hater up. I expect to see a partial roof covering. And the minimum amount of seating in the proposals requests was for 22,500, that's minimum, expect the new stadium revealed in Sept to be much more. I don't think we'll be disappointed with the stadium, unless of course you've already got it in your head to hate it, because it's not beside a railyard and tied up in redtape at the OMB. Canon and Lottridge is just as much downtown as Stuart and Caroline is.

BTW It hasn't showered like this in a month and it does it on a game day. Here's to a new awesome stadium and a win tonite, and hopefully a good crowd. 7pm tonite. Go Cats Go.

[SteelTown]

Canada is hosting the 2015 women's world cup so I don't know if the best team members will participate.

[realcity]

If you don;t know something then why bother telling us you don't know.

[bigguy1231]

^^^^Yeah, I'm ok with the bench seating too, but nicer is nicer.




Yes, it is less than half, but we have no detailed account of what either price includes, and there is no way to compare the two stadiums right now, especially since not much is revealed of the high school stadium in Texas and no plans have been revealed yet for Hamilton's.



Why do you think we are getting "a minor league stadium which will be totally useless for the future needs of this city"?

All the accounts I've read indicate Hamilton is getting a top notch modern facility.

22,500 seats says it's minor league. It will be useless. No concerts, no Grey Cups and inadequate for the current needs of the TiCats.

[CaptainKirk]

22,500 is a minimum. I think there will be more seats.

[Jon Dalton]

22,500 seats says it's minor league. It will be useless. No concerts, no Grey Cups and inadequate for the current needs of the TiCats.

I agree that 22,500 seats is stupid. It's less than they currently sell. However I am sure they will figure something out for temporary seating for the Grey Cup. It would be too much of an economic benefit for the city to pass by.

[CaptainKirk]

Reminder: It will be more than 22,500 seats. That`s just the required minimum for the IO bid. Scott Mitchell and others are on record saying it will be more than that.

I`m still of the opinion it should have been at least 30,000, and certainly not less than the current IWS capacity.

[BCTed]

Yes, they will (or at least a very similar team will be).

The host country qualifies automatically and, even if they didn't, I believe Canada gets an automatic berth because we won gold at the Guadalajara Pan-Am games.

Edit: I say a "very similar team" because the Olympics have age restrictions (all players must be under 23, except for three players). I'm not sure if the Pan-Am games has the same restriction.

The age restriction applies to men's soccer. There is no such age restriction for women's soccer in the Olympics.

[BCTed]

I don;t know how you can judge our stadium when you haven't even seen the plans yet. It will be multi-purpose. And world-class. $150m buys a lot of stadium. And yes we will be hosting practically these same soccer teams that are playing in London (from North, Central and South America). Not to mention the Fifa World Cup is in 2014, and we will be hosting some of those players from Brazil, Argentina, and USA.

If we had track still, we'd have Bolt and Blake here in the city. We also lost swimming so there goes Phelps. At least we'll have our medal winning men and women rowers in St. Catharines. These are the best athletes in the world. This London Olympics might be the best I've ever watched. And some of these same athletes will be here in PanAm 2015.


I am worried that the $150 million will not buy enough. Winnipeg's stadium cost is around $190 million and I assume that you get more bank for your buck in Manitoba than Ontario. Regina's new stadium will cost close to twice the 150. Regardless, I hope the seating capacity is much higher than 22,500.

Quite a few athletes miss the Pan Am Games because of busy schedules. Bolt, Blake, and Phelps all skipped the 2011 Games. And Phelps is now retired.

[BCTed]

Reminder: It will be more than 22,500 seats. That`s just the required minimum for the IO bid. Scott Mitchell and others are on record saying it will be more than that.

I`m still of the opinion it should have been at least 30,000, and certainly not less than the current IWS capacity.

The new Winnipeg and Regina stadia will each seat around 33K.

ticats.ca states that "The new stadium capacity will be reduced to allow for greater intimacy, and the best sightlines in the CFL." I am hoping that the stadium capacity is not much reduced from the current 29K and certainly think it should be much higher than 22.5K, which is currently, and should continue to be, exceeded on a regular basis.

[bigguy1231]

Reminder: It will be more than 22,500 seats. That`s just the required minimum for the IO bid. Scott Mitchell and others are on record saying it will be more than that.

I`m still of the opinion it should have been at least 30,000, and certainly not less than the current IWS capacity.

I hope you are right, but I wouldn't believe anything Scott Mitchell has to say.

If it is bigger than the minimum I can't see it being anymore than 24,000 seats given the budget, which is still an inadequate number of seats.

[CaptainKirk]

I hope you are right, but I wouldn't believe anything Scott Mitchell has to say.

If it is bigger than the minimum I can't see it being anymore than 24,000 seats given the budget, which is still an inadequate number of seats.

Agreed. Even if it is more than 22,500, it will still probably be less than old IWS. Too small.

This stadium is for the coming decades, not just the present.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Reminder: It will be more than 22,500 seats. That`s just the required minimum for the IO bid. Scott Mitchell and others are on record saying it will be more than that

There won't be more than 22,500 seats when the winning design is selected.

Why would the winning bidder be willing be build more than the minimum amount of seats he is being asked to build?

What Mitchell said was there would be nothing stopping them from adding seats themselves afterwards - which will be endzone seating

[CaptainKirk]

Why would the winning bidder be willing be build more than the minimum amount of seats he is being asked to build?

So that they can win the bid.

What Mitchell said was there would be nothing stopping them from adding seats themselves afterwards - which will be endzone seating

Yes, he said that too.

Scott Mitchell's words:

the capacity is going to be much higher, or certainly somewhat higher than what's being reported and of course there's nothing to prevent us from augmenting the stadium ourselves.


At 3:35 of the interview.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/video/366250030 ... ew-stadium[/quote]

[FrankieFlowerpot]

The bid won't be won by the number of seats the stadium has.

The winning bid will be the team who have the best overall package (technical and financial) for the three new venues - soccer, athletics and velodrome

[CaptainKirk]

The bid won't be won by the number of seats the stadium has.

The winning bid will be the team who have the best overall package (technical and financial) for the three new venues - soccer, athletics and velodrome

Of course, best overall bid wins, but as has been mentioned in interviews and stories, seating capacity will be one of the factors, among many, considered.

Please note edit to my last post where i reference Mitchell saying stadium will have bigger capacity than 22,500, but in this interview he did not say after the Pan Am games, but nor did he say it would be bigger for the games.

But yes, I have seen the interview where he said they could add seats after the games.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

I guess we'll see - things may have changed since the last set of plans that I have seen

[CaptainKirk]

I guess we'll see - things may have changed since the last set of plans that I have seen

You've seen plans?

What plans?

[mattgrande]

The bid won't be won by the number of seats the stadium has.

The winning bid will be the team who have the best overall package (technical and financial) for the three new venues - soccer, athletics and velodrome

I forgot about this... The winning bid could have an amazing athletics & velodrome, but a garbage soccer stadium... and we'd be stuck with it.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

You've seen plans?

What plans?

The bidders plans - albeit at an early stage

[CaptainKirk]

The bidders plans - albeit at an early stage

Well come on. Be a pal and spit it out. :cheers:

What can you tell us about what you've seen?

[FrankieFlowerpot]

I can't say much to be honest, unfortunately .
Not until after the winning design has been announced.

[CaptainKirk]

I can't say much to be honest, unfortunately .
Not until after the winning design has been announced.

Why not?

You're anonymous here.

[markbarbera]

I forgot about this... The winning bid could have an amazing athletics & velodrome, but a garbage soccer stadium... and we'd be stuck with it.

None of the bidders have a reputation for building garbage sports facilities, nor would it be in their interest to set that kind of reputation with this contract. Not exactly good for future business. The winning bid will have top-notch designs for all the facilities in this portfolio.

[Vod_Kann]

Interesting interview about 1/2 way down with Bernie Morelli. You don't need to be a mind reader to know that Bernie doesn't like what he sees.

http://www.900chml.com/Station/BillKellyShow/Audio.aspx

It weird though- I felt that Morelli has always been just a little off on the stadium and adjoining precinct so may actually be right on. any thoughts??

[Dr Awesomesauce]

^If Morelli doesn't like it, that's probably a good thing. :D

I'm really looking forward to some details being released on this bad boy.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Why not?

You're anonymous here.

Confidentiality agreement

[CaptainKirk]

Confidentiality agreement

I strongly doubt that FrankieFlowerpot signed any such agreement. :cheers:

You're a tough nut to crack. :help:

[ihateittoo]

wait! what?

the velodrome is no longer coming to Hamilton, correct?

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Velodrome will be in Milton

[CaptainKirk]

http://www.cbc.ca/hamilton/news/story/2012/08/16/hamilton-pan-am.html

McKendrick told reporters after the meeting that Infrastructure Ontario and Hamilton council already have the successful [bid] in mind.

[GlassCity]

As a Vancouverite, I'm confused about the stadium. Is it guaranteed that they will be building it next year and that the Tiger-Cats will play there, or is there still a possibility that Hamilton doesn't host the Pan Am games and that the stadium isn't built? Also, it's been confirmed that it's being built on the site of Ivor Wynne, correct?

[CaptainKirk]

As a Vancouverite, I'm confused about the stadium. Is it guaranteed that they will be building it next year and that the Tiger-Cats will play there, or is there still a possibility that Hamilton doesn't host the Pan Am games and that the stadium isn't built? Also, it's been confirmed that it's being built on the site of Ivor Wynne, correct?

The stadium is guaranteed for both the Pan Am games and the Tiger-Cats. Demolition of Ivor Wynne stadium starts as soon as the Ti-Cats are done playing this year.

They need a temporary home to play in next year during construction of the new stadium which will be built on the current site of Ivor Wynne stadium.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Demolition and Construction start at the end of this CFL season and will be completed by the start of the 2014 season.

Ticats will have to play their 2013 home games elsewhere

[GlassCity]

Thanks guys, I can't wait to see the new stadium. To have so many being built in the CFL is exciting.

[SteelTown]

14 days (two weeks) left until the big reveal.

[realcity]

Can't wait! But I expect at the last minute the reveal will be delayed for another month considering this project has never met one deadline.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

What deadlines have they not met?