Tim Hortons Field | 40m | ? | Complete

[flar]

The Aberdeen yard is the only place to go on that part of the line, trains can't go through it. The track ends at the 403 and the rail trail begins. Off topic thought, they could fast track lrt by putting track back on the rail trail, it goes right to Dundas, (which should be part of the LRT to make it work).

[markbarbera]

CP still runs east to Welland and to the Bayview Junction where it connects to the CN mainline to Toronto. I think most of those freights are going through, not to or from the Aberdeen yard. I know CP is totally unwilling to let GO use any more track time due to freight traffic demands. If that could have been resolved by moving the Aberdeen yard and rerouting trains somewhere else, that would have come up long before now in negotiations with GO Transit. $30M went into rail improvements for the TH&B restoration (in the early 90's), if they could have made provisions for all day service they would have done it back then, I would think. Bob Bratina probably knows more about this.

Paging Bob Bratina....
Paging Bob Bratina......

With the CP rail yards transformed to a stadium, the amount of traffic CP had along Hamilton Subdivision will likely drop significantly, but not completely. As Jon pointed out, the southern portion of Hamilton Subdivision is used actively to link Welland to Hamilton and the northern section links to CP's Galt and Guelph subdivisions (via Desjardin/Hamilton Junction). I believe there are only 6 mainline trains that CP has running the length of Hamilton Subdivision these days. One would think there would be more capacity available for GO service along CP's Hamilton Subdivison as a result of eliminating the Aberdeen Yards from service (and the associated traffic related to the shunting that takes place there).

[dennis1]

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/266152--ticats-kick-in-10-million-to-build-stadium

10 million for a $165 million stadium??? Are they serious?

[SteelTown]

The Ti Cats say Bob Young spent $30 million over the decade and he's probably going to spend just as much within 3 years.

Not only will they pay for the cost of the stadium construction they'll also buy acres of CP land, pay for brownfield cleanup, operate the stadium for 20 years, acquire a soccer team, establish a soccer academy, bring retail, convention space and hotel to the property, instead of the city spending millions annually to the Ti Cats they'll only have to pay $100,000, new tax base, bring concerts, sporting events, etc and host several Grey Cups events.

[mattgrande]

I don't like the idea of the City having to pay $300k per year to use a stadium that they built.

Didn't the CFL say they needed a 45,000 seat stadium (http://www.raisethehammer.org/article/1136/cfl_commissioner:_east_mountain_or_else) to host a Grey Cup?

Wasn't the funding gap $35M? I don't see how $10M (over ten years) fixes that.

[markbarbera]

Matt, the city is paying $300,000 to have the facility managed by the Ticats, certainly not for usage rights as implied.

CFL does require seating of 45,000 for a Grey Cup match. Generally stadia that host the cup have additional temporary seating put in place for the event. A 25000-seat stadium ill not impede hosting future Grey Cups so long as the design allows for the placement of temporary seating.

The additional $10 million in funding the Ticats are bringing forward does not cover the funding gap. There's still a need for additional funding, thus the recommendation to formally request funds from the feds and the province.

At the end of the day, this will be a city-owned facility. Any amount of money the Ticats, the feds and the province put into its construction subsidizes the overall cost for the city to acquire this new infrastructure.

There are a few holdout WH supporters who would rather scuttle this compromise location than see the stadium go anywhere but at Barton and Tiffany. That's unfortunate.

[coalminecanary]

Let's fix this - by adding some missing information and removing all of the emotional crap!

1) The Tiger-Cats agree to contribute $10,000,000 over the next 10 years towards the construction of the stadium. Subject to the terms/timing of these payments, this will make available $8 million to $10 million in capital financing.

2) The City and The Tiger-Cats will enter into a 20 year agreement.

3) The Tiger-Cats agree to purchase 10 to 15 acres of land which will be developed commercially and expected to yield approximately $500,000 in municipal taxes a year. This will offset the loss of approximately $213,000 in current tax assessment for a net gain of approximately $287,000.

4) Tiger-Cats agree to operate the Stadium at no risk to the City.(emotional wordsmithing)

5) The City of Hamilton and The Tiger-Cats will each contribute $200,000 annually to a Capital Reserve fund to be held by the City. The Tiger-Cats will fund their contribution through a ticket surcharge.

6) City agrees to pay the Tiger-Cats $300,000 annually as a management fee for running the Stadium and assuming the associated risk.

7) The City can use the Stadium for community uses at no additional cost. We can also use the Stadium to host special provincial, national and international events and the Tiger-Cats will work with the City to attract and host these events.

8) Tiger-Cats are willing to create a “Hamilton Legacy Foundation” regarding the redevelopment of the Ivor Wynne and West Harbour Sites. A proposal in this regard will be forthcoming. (still speculation)

9) Tiger-Cats have obtained an exclusive option for a North American Soccer League franchise for Hamilton and have begun the formal application process and will use their best efforts to acquire a NASL franchise to play out of the new Pan Am stadium. (still speculation)

10) The Tiger-Cats plan to start a soccer academy in conjunction with the operation of the professional soccer team. (still speculation)

11) The Tiger-Cats retain naming rights and other advertising revenues to offset the cost of running the Stadium.(emotional wordsmithing)

And why don't we add:

12) The cost estimate for the traffic infrastructure required for the development of the stadium has been estimated at approximately $6,000,000 (Who will pay for this?)

13) The development of the CP site on Aberdeen and Longwood for a stadium and other uses will result in the displacement of two businesses. The first is a business that unloads and distributes bulk product by rail. At this point it is not clear as to what costs would be incurred in order to relocate this facility. The second is a 150,000 square foot warehousing and trans-shipment operation that has multiple customers in Hamilton, Ontario and North America. Current municipal taxes on the facility are $213,430.00 with approximately 65 employees involved in administration, sales, operations and logistics.

14) The City will take full responsibility for turf replacement, and capital maintenance items covered by the Design, Build, Finance, Maintain obligations of the Stadium constructor.

15) The Tiger Cats will receive all revenues at the Stadium, including parking revenues.

[SteelTown]

Scott Mitchell said it will be full $10 million towards the stadium, not $8-10 range.

[mattgrande]

Matt, the city is paying $300,000 to have the facility managed by the Ticats, certainly not for usage rights as implied.


Right you are. That was my mistake.


At the end of the day, this will be a city-owned facility. Any amount of money the Ticats, the feds and the province put into its construction subsidizes the overall cost for the city to acquire this new infrastructure.

If it's a city owned, but Ti-Cats run facility, does that incur a conflict of interest with HECFI if there are concerts there?

[mattgrande]

http://twitter.com/#!/markhmasters/status/27170617771


#Ticats pres. Scott Mitchell says even w/ 9 sellouts a year the #CFL team would still lose $ at Ivor Wynne Stadium #HamOnt


How will having a new stadium (with less seats) fix this?

[markbarbera]

If it's a city owned, but Ti-Cats run facility, does that incur a conflict of interest with HECFI if there are concerts there?

How so? The demographics for concerts at Hamilton Place and even Copps is very different from an open air stadium. The outdoor stadium as a concert venue has a brief season and frankly is not much of a preferred venue for performers these days. If four concerts a year were booked I'd be surprised.

Besides, isn't HECFI on the way out what with Katz wanting to manage those venues - or was that all just smoke and mirrors?

[SteelTown]

Stadium plan $53.7 million short
Decision on Pan Am site will be left to team elected on Oct. 25

Emma Reilly
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/266723--stadium-plan-53-7-million-short

The city is still months away and millions of dollars short of resolving the Pan Am stadium debate.

At city council's penultimate meeting Tuesday, council did not officially approve the CP rail yard site at Aberdeen Avenue and Longwood Road because crucial pieces of information weren't available.

The city still has to finalize several key details, including how it's going to bridge a funding gap of at least $53.7 million.

That means the final decision on the Pan Am Games will be left to the councillors set to be elected Oct. 25, sparing the current council from making a controversial decision less than two weeks before voters go to the polls.

“In the middle of an election process at this point in time without all the information, it would be irresponsible of us to make a decision other than to say, let's keep moving forward,” said Mayor Fred Eisenberger. “The next council will have some challenges to deal with, one way or another.”

One of the biggest hurdles facing the next council will be financing.

According to city finance chief Rob Rossini, the total construction costs for the stadium are $166 million. The total funding currently committed from the three levels of government totals $125 million. That leaves a gap of $40.7 million for construction of the stadium alone, not including land acquisition, remediation, business relocation and demolition.

The Hamilton Tiger-Cats have told city officials they'll commit $8 million to $10 million over 10 years to help with construction costs.

That lessens the capital funding gap to between $30 million and $32 million.

However, Cats president Scott Mitchell made it clear at Tuesday's meeting that the city should not count on the Tiger-Cats for any further money and the team has reached its limit in terms of financial contributions.

“We're at our threshold financially. Certainly, much like the city, we're all in and want to get to a solution,” Mitchell said outside the council chamber.

The city is also short when it comes to the velodrome and west harbour redevelopment.

The city has spent $9 million on land in the west harbour, formerly earmarked as the stadium site but abandoned after the Tiger-Cats said the team would refuse to play there.

There's also a $14-million funding gap to build a permanent velodrome.

Added to the $32-million shortfall for construction of the stadium, that leaves the city looking for an additional $55 million, plus funding for land-related costs such as remediation.

The city and the Ticats are looking to the upper levels of government to come up with extra funding.

Though the province has sent positive signals about bumping up its funding levels, the federal government says it needs more time to decide whether to commit extra funding.

That's one of the reasons

why staff advised councillors to put off a decision until after the election.

Though the city and the Tiger-Cats are co-operating, neither side is entirely happy with the site.

Mitchell told councillors that private funding hasn't come as easily because the city didn't choose a suburban green field with lots of space for development.

“If you want private sector involvement, development's going to be a large part of that … If you're going to want to attract a vast amount of private sector investment, you have to go to where the private sector is going to make a lot of money.”

Eisenberger made it clear his preferred location is still the west harbour. He expressed concern that the city hadn't allocated “a dollar” to west harbour redevelopment so far.

“My preferred option has been the west harbour. That would have been, in my view, perfect,” he said. “But compromise is working through and finding solutions for everyone.”

Though several councillors mentioned they were pleased with the city's progress on the CP site, councillors Sam Merulla and Brian McHattie — the only two councillors who voted against moving forward with the CP lands — told council the public doesn't want a Pan Am stadium.

Merulla said the city keeps trying new sites and not finding workable solutions.

“Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over and expecting the same results,” he said. “At what point are we going to end the madness?”

The next Pan Am update will be delivered to the newly elected council in January 2011.

[coalminecanary]

http://cdn2.ioffer.com/img/item/325/162/26/MoneyPit.jpg

[Jon Dalton]

Anything from Dreschel yet? I thought that was him in the front row taking notes.

[SteelTown]

Sleeping on the job pays off for council

Andrew Dreschel

http://www.thespec.com/opinion/article/266684--sleeping-on-the-job-pays-off-for-council

[bigguy1231]

Bigguy, it's not my math that arrived at that figure. Those numbers are directly from the City of Hamilton's Pan Am games website, the proverbial horse's mouth.

It's what's called doing a bit pf research instead of just pulling numbers from the top of your hat. Take a look at the facts yourself, they are posted in the second item on their FAQ page:



I would trust they would have the most accurate tally on who's paying what.

With regards to your sophmoric final comment, while I would be grateful never to actually have to meet you or any of your friends in person, should we ever have the misfortune of meeting I am sure you'd quickly realize another misconception of yours is that my desire to conduct civil discussion is an indication of a 'delicate disposition'.

You accuse me of not using facts and then you refer to a statement devoid of any facts on a city cheerleading site. I will stand by my statement about how much has been committed by the province and feds $80 million. Those are numbers that are real as of today. If you want, I'll add another $10 million to spruce up Copps and clean up the downtown for the games. But even with that it is still only $90 million, a long way from the $150-$200 million that is stated on the city's site. If they had that much to spend the city wouldn't be scrambling to find an extra $50 million for a stadium, they could just take it out of that extra $100 million or so that we had been promised.

[realcity]

I can't wait for the new council to decide it's going to Confederation Park, then watch the private money pour in and build a first-class stadium on our real waterfront. Then watch hotels and a sports and entertainment strip develop on the beach.

And finally Hamilton would have embraced its coastline like a big league city.

[flar]

According to a story in the Republic, the city owes $500-million on sports facilities it built to attract professional teams to Glendale, including a $180-million investment in Jobing.com Arena. That is a staggering sum for a city of 250,000 people. Thanks to the recession, entertainment and retail developments that were supposed to spring up to provide the revenue to pay the debt have either failed to materialize or are bringing in a fraction of the projected income.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/david-shoalts/latest-bid-to-buy-coyotes-stalls/article1757924/


Part of another story but interesting parallels

[mattgrande]

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/268150--voters-target-city-poverty-not-stadium


Voters target city poverty, not stadium

City voters are overwhelmingly against spending more on the Pan Am stadium, but they’re prepared to shell out more of their tax dollars to combat poverty.

A Spectator/Nanos poll has found that 62.6 per cent of the 1,000 voters polled are opposed to spending more city tax dollars on the new stadium for the Pan Am Games and the Hamilton Tiger Cats. Conversely, 80.4 per cent support the city spending more tax dollars to reduce poverty.

[realcity]

Confederation Park will be back as an option

[markbarbera]

:previous:

This news article will get realcity's heart all a-flutter!

Pan Am head keen to talk with Bratina
JOHN KERNAGHAN Tue Oct 26 2010
thespec.com

TORONTO

The stark realities of financing and meeting the timing for a Pan Am stadium is on Ian Troop’s agenda as he anticipates meeting mayor-elect Bob Bratina.

“I look forward to working with him, working through what his ideas are and making sure he is aware of the realities,” the 2015 Games boss said Tuesday.

Troop was responding to Bratina’s win Monday and his campaign which included the possibility of considering three stadium sites.

The city and the Tiger-Cats are working on stadium plans for a site on CP Rail lands in the west end.

He is impressed with the progress city manager Chris Murray has made but noted a Feb.1 deadline for a stadium plan “is right against the very edge of planning” in terms of delivery for the Games.

Troop stressed the question of funding is “a go or no-go issue” in building a stadium for soccer during the Games.

The $50-million shortfall will take “real leadership and energy to ensure we get the parties together to think about how we bridge that gap.”

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/270778--pan-am-head-keen-to-talk-with-bratina

A Pan-Am stadium on highway-accessible, city-owned property that desen't require remediation will help shrink the stadium's funding shortfall by about $20 million. If only there was such a piece of property available somwhere within the city's urban boundary...

[realcity]

LOL.... if only there was, if only there was.

[SteelTown]

Bob Bratina said on CHCH that he won't take the February final deadline serious. Yikes!

[drpgq]

Bob Bratina said on CHCH that he won't take the February final deadline serious. Yikes!

I can't say I blame him considering how porous the other deadlines have been.

[SteelTown]

We've been warned over and over and verbally that the February deadline is the final. If nothing they'll go ahead with improvements to Ron Joyce stadium.

[SteelTown]

From Ian Troop....

Absolute final deadline to build a stadium in Hamilton is February 1, 2011.

TO2015 applauds the City of Hamilton, the Hamilton Tiger Cats, the Province of Ontario, the Federal Government, and all other parties for their ability to come together and look for a solution for the stadium location, its financial sustainability, and its lasting legacy. Although TO2015 recognizes the strides all have taken and are willing to accept further delays on a contingent basis, we must establish an absolute and final deadline of February 1, 2011 for the City to provide the necessary information and confirmations, as stated clearly in my letter dated September 23, 2010.

To be clear, if there is no resolution by February 1, 2011, TO2015 will implement its contingency plan for its soccer program which will include a smaller community sized stadium in another municipality.

http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/18CCE1E1-06FB-4BC1-890C-7A33BA49ED1D/0/Oct12CM09006j.pdf

[isaidso]

We've been warned over and over and verbally that the February deadline is the final. If nothing they'll go ahead with improvements to Ron Joyce stadium.

I'm 100% with you here. Bratina is an absolute fool/arrogant/irresponsible if he thinks he can toy with the Pan Am Committee like this. This will be yanked out of Hamilton if this doesn't come together by February 1st. Is he high? He's playing russian roulette with the future of Hamilton and the Hamilton Tiger-Cats.

Come on Hamilton! Get it for together, for the love of God! :no:

[bornagainbiking]

The guy gets elected day before yesterday and he is expected to right all the wrongs the last ship of fools (still have same ship of fools, new captain) made. This whole mess is very mixed up and don't be surprised if it falls thru.
I would love a new stadium (I prefer West harbour) but can we afford it? Seriously.
Good luck to Bob and the boys, I hope they can get over their egos and find a solution fairly quickly.:shrug: :shrug:

[mattgrande]

I wouldn't mind us losing the Pan-Am stadium, but I don't want to lose it because we missed the deadline.

I really hope the new council makes a descion on a location (I'd prefer WH, but don't hate Aberdeen), and tells the Ti-Cats "this is the situation. Take it or leave it."

[padthai]

I really hope the new council makes a descion on a location (I'd prefer WH, but don't hate Aberdeen), and tells the Ti-Cats "this is the situation. Take it or leave it."

It'll be interesting to see how a certain downtown councilor/Ticats announcer handles things should it get to the point of a "take it or leave it" decision for the Ticats.

Article (http://www.thespec.com/news/elections/article/271027--farr-walks-fine-line-on-stadium-debate) in the Spec gets into it a little bit.

[markbarbera]

Council has moved away from a confrontational approach over the stadium with the Ticats. The relationship has evolved back to a collaborative one, so I really don't see any "take it or leave it" kind of ultimatum stances from either party at this stage of the planning.

[bornagainbiking]

Pay attention:

SAN FRANCISCO _ Docks once laden with bananas from Central America and opium from China gave way to the $357 million privately built ballpark that is hosting some of the World Series games this October.

The San Francisco Giants say they hope to spur a similar transformation of the mostly neglected area behind AT (and) T Park, where they will welcome the Texas Rangers in the best-of-seven matchup for Major League Baseball’s championship.

Giants President Larry Baer looks at the parking lots and decrepit docks sitting just beyond the right-field wall and envisions a cultural, residential and retail complex.

“It’s really the last frontier in San Francisco,” Baer, 53, said in an interview in his ballpark office. “There’s nowhere else in San Francisco left to build.”

The 1989 earthquake that devastated the southeastern part of the city created a catalyst for redevelopment of that area and, in 2000, the new ballpark.

Along with the 42,300-seat stadium abutting San Francisco Bay, a new $648 million light-rail line and a biotechnology centre anchored by the University of California, San Francisco, helped revive the 300-acre Mission Bay area that urban planner Gabriel Metcalf, 40, called “dying formerly industrial land.”

“The Giants’ ballpark is one of the great success stories in America of urban revitalization,” Metcalf, executive director of SPUR, the San Francisco Planning and Urban Research Association, a nonprofit public policy group, said in a telephone interview. “We did a lot of other things around the ballpark at the same time, and didn’t just hope it would work its magic on its own.”

Baer said the area behind the ballpark may be the site of a concert hall, or a sports arena that might seek to lure the National Basketball Association’s Golden State Warriors back to San Francisco from Oakland, as part of an “activated, multifaceted place for people to work and live in the city.”

The original price tag for the entire project, including an NBA-type arena, was $1.2 billion, Baer said, adding that any development would be done in phases.

The San Francisco-Oakland area’s gross domestic product was $301 billion in 2008, ranking it 18th among the world’s cities, according to a report by PricewaterhouseCooper.

John Rahaim, 55, the city’s planning director, said some plans to continue development near the ballpark have stalled because of the economy. He said the idea of building a sports centre across from AT (and) T Park could work.

“There are good synergies to having an arena there, if it’s done right,” he said in a telephone interview. “It’s important to have it be part of a mixed-use thing and not just an arena.”

Unlike almost all American stadiums, such as the publicly subsidized new Yankee Stadium and Citi Field in New York, AT (and) T Park was built with private funds _ including a $170 million bank loan and $100 million from naming rights and sponsorships. The only public help was a $15 million bond paid off with Giants property taxes.

While he doesn’t rule out public financing of a redevelopment project, Baer said he envisions a similar plan spurred by private financing. Real estate development firms The Cordish Companies and Wilson Meany Sullivan, as well as Farallon Capital Management, are among the companies involved in the project, Baer said.

“I don’t see us really looking to the city for anything but help with entitlements and improvements,” he said.

The Giants have not won the World Series since 1954, when the franchise was based in New York. The Rangers are playing in the championship round for the first time in franchise history. The Rangers, who are the 5-6 favourite at the Las Vegas Hilton to win the championship.

The area behind the ballpark, which is leased by the Giants from the Port of San Francisco on a year-to-year basis, is built on landfill and once was part of San Francisco Bay. The port budgeted for a 1 per cent dip in revenue to $63.9 million in the 12 months through June 30 and has forecast a 25 percent rise to $80.1 million by fiscal 2015.

The ballpark itself sits where the Pacific Mail Steamship Company unloaded silk, tea, rice and opium from Asia in the early 20th century. That commerce, and the large number of Chinese workers on those docks, led to the area being called China Basin. The Del Monte Fruit Co. built a cannery-warehouse there in 1925 to unload banana boats.

After World War II, it became an abandoned site of underutilized rail lines and crumbling piers. Bars and cafes served longshoremen, and the few residents of the area lived in mobile homes.

“If you wanted to get rid of your car, you’d take your plates off and park it down there,” Meade Boutwell, a senior vice president at Los Angeles-based CB Richard Ellis real estate firm, said in a telephone interview. Now “it’s the epicentre of development in San Francisco.”

The parking lots eyed by the Giants for development are bordered on the north by McCovey Cove, where kayakers race for home-run balls hit into the water, and on the south by new buildings with signs offering “prestigious waterfront office space.” The cove is named for 72-year-old Giants Hall of Fame first baseman Willie McCovey.

The Giants, who moved to San Francisco from New York in 1958 and spent four decades in windswept Candlestick Park, led a successful campaign for approval of Measure B in March 1996 that cleared the way for their downtown ballpark.

Between the beginning of 1996 and the middle of 1998, city officials recorded 215 real-estate transactions in the China Basin area that borders Mission Bay _ equalling the number from the previous quarter century.

Baer said his only regret is not being more aggressive from the start as the surrounding neighbourhood was being developed, and he is trying to catch up now.

“There are so many opportunities that are within a five- minute walk for adding to the urban landscape,” he said. “The opportunity to build a new neighbourhood around this ballpark and to help seed the future of this neighbourhood for generations is something that’s wonderful.”

Bloomberg News

[c@taract_soulj@h]

I'm quite sure Bratina knew this was going to be on his plate when he ran for office. He seems like a smart man who's for the people and the greater good of the city as all mayoral candidates are. However not all of us want the stadium to be in the same spot, or even have a stadium at all anymore. It's definite though that he loves the city and will strive to make every sacrifice he can for us to benefit from it.

If Eisenberger couldn't sway Young to move the Cats to the water, I think Bratina will leave the current site well enough alone. He did mention Confederation Park however so maybe he could throw some support that way? In all fairness though enoughs enough and I'm completely fine with watching a TiCats game up the street from my old highschool. Go Brat!

[realcity]

Pay attention:

SAN FRANCISCO _ Docks once laden with bananas from Central America and opium from China gave way to the $357 million privately built ballpark that is hosting some of the World Series games this October.

The San Francisco Giants say they hope to spur a similar transformation of the mostly neglected area behind AT (and) T Park, where they will welcome the Texas Rangers in the best-of-seven matchup for Major League Baseball’s championship.

Bloomberg News

Check out a map. It's about 800 feet from the I-280 and about 1000 Feet (That's Feet!!!) from the I-80 Exit ramps. Big difference than WH's isolation. And there isn't a residential home within miles. This San Fran location is also highly visible from from both freeways and the Bay Bridge.

The ATT Stadium has over 4,000 parking spots ON-SITE and a surface lot across the street on Pier 26 with a footprint about 3 times the size of the ball field itself.

Just like to point out some facts. Now get your hate-on.

[geoff's two cents]

Check out a map. It's about 800 feet from the I-280 and about 1000 Feet (That's Feet!!!) from the I-80 Exit ramps. Big difference than WH's isolation. And there isn't a residential home within miles. This San Fran location is also highly visible from from both freeways and the Bay Bridge.

The ATT Stadium has over 4,000 parking spots ON-SITE and a surface lot across the street on Pier 26 with a footprint about 3 times the size of the ball field itself.

Just like to point out some facts. Now get your hate-on.

AT&T Park is downtown, skipping distance from pubs, cafés and condominiums, (which are "residential homes," btw), as opposed to 12+km from downtown like Confederation Park.

[bornagainbiking]

Is that ferry service I see just down the street from AT&T stadium. Imagine a ferry from Burlington like they have from Oakland. :worship: :worship:

[mattgrande]

It's used 9 times as much as the new CFL stadium will be (81 times a year, as opposed to 9).

San Fran has a metro population of over 4 million people.

Let's not start celebrating yet...

[SteelTown]

City hires top lobbyists to press Ottawa

Paul Morse
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/273570--city-hires-top-lobbyists-to-press-ottawa

Hamilton is spending taxpayer cash on three powerhouse lobbyists to press Ottawa for more stadium money.

The federal Registry of Lobbyists shows that Hamilton hired Ottawa-based StrategyCorp Inc.’s Leslie Noble, David MacNaughton and John Matheson to lobby the federal government for “federal support for a stadium in Hamilton.”

StrategyCorp has been actively bending the ear of federal Sports Minister Gary Lunn and his senior policy adviser André Hannoush on Hamilton’s behalf since September, according to the public registry.

Noble, who helped found StrategyCorp, is closely connected with provincial and federal Progressive Conservatives, while MacNaughton has well-known links with the Liberal parties.

“I think that is a disgrace and unconscionable,” said Ward 4 Councillor Sam Merulla, who has been steadfast in his criticism of the Pan Am stadium debate.

“Somebody needs to be held accountable.”

Hamilton should not be spending money on lobbyists for a “meaningless project such as the stadium” when larger issues such as infrastructure renewal, increasing local manufacturing jobs and lowering the cost of social services downloaded onto the city by the province weigh on the city’s shoulders, Merulla said, adding he is trying to find out how much money was involved.

“When we start hiring lapdogs of whatever governing party exists … I would hope we would be doing it on issues that matter. The stadium is a pathetic issue.”

Neither city manager Chris Murray, who is in charge of the city’s stadium strategy, nor outgoing mayor Fred Eisenberger responded to questions about the lobbyists or their cost to the city Thursday.

Meanwhile, mayor-elect Bob Bratina declined to comment on where he stands on the use of the stadium lobbyists.

“I’d rather not comment until I’ve finished my round of meetings with council and am sworn in Dec. 1,” he said in an e-mail Thursday afternoon.

The lobbying effort appears to coincide with the federal government’s announcement in September that it would not increase its contribution to help Hamilton pay for a 25,000-seat stadium to be used for the Pan Am Games and as a home for the Hamilton Tiger-Cats.

The city estimates it faces a $53.7-million funding gap for construction costs, land acquisition, remediation, business relocation and demolition on the CP Rail lands at Longwood Road and Aberdeen Avenue.

“I’m a little surprised that we would need three of the top lobbyists,” said Ward 2 councillor-elect Jason Farr.

“It may speak to a lack of connection between our municipal government here in Hamilton and the federal government that we would even need to consider lobbyists on any issue, not just this stadium issue.”

[SteelTown]

The Ticats, who have pledged $10 million toward the stadium, will unveil a proposal for a hotel and conference centre at the site next week at a Hamilton Chamber of Commerce meeting.

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/273883--city-spending-25-000-on-stadium-lobbyists

[SteelTown]

GOOD MORNING HAMILTON

OUR HOSTS:
Scott Mitchell, President Hamilton Tiger-Cats & Don May, Planning Consultant

Discussion:
The New PAN AM
Stadium Site at
Aberdeen & Longwood

Wednesday, November 10, 2010
7:45 a.m. - 9:00 a.m.
The Waterfront Banquet &
Conference Centre
555 Bay Street North, Hamilton

[SteelTown]

Just a few hours until the unveiling of the new design and site plan.

[SteelTown]

http://media.mmgdailies.topscms.com/images/f8/40/ee2cd5e741b9804e151581796d3a.jpeg

http://www.thespec.com/sports/ticats/article/274777--tiger-cats-want-stadium-with-hotel

Tiger-Cats want stadium with hotel
Including conference centre, public square

The Hamilton Tiger-Cats are hoping to build a hotel, conference centre, some townhouses and a sports-entertainment complex to go with the city’s Pan Am stadium, making it a destination that will attract community users year round.

The team’s president Scott Mitchell and its land-use planning consultant Don May are to update the community Wednesday on their side of plans for the proposed stadium district at Longwood Road and Aberdeen Avenue.

The funding and specifics for the stadium itself have yet to be finalized, with organizers of the Pan Am Games having set Feb. 1 as the final deadline for a proposal.

The city and the team are working on a co-operative stadium package that has already seen the team commit $8 to $10 million, the city put in $45 million and the provincial and the federal governments split a $57 million contribution, for a total of $110 to $112 million — as much as $53 million less than some consider the actual cost.

The province has indicated it may increase its commitment, but by how much is not yet clear.

The city councillor for the area is doubtful enough public money will materialize to complete the stadium, while the team is proceeding on the basis that it will.

May, a veteran planner involved with major public and private projects and the past president of Parks and Recreation Ontario, is working with city staff to co-ordinate the stadium and its surrounding buildings in a village-style arrangement, including connections between existing trails and railway beds now in use at the site, which today is a CP marshalling yard.

May said a partnership between the community, public and private partners can produce a positive outcome for all sides, especially with broad public consultation.

The Tiger-Cats would develop the hotel, conference centre and other structures with private partners. The hotel and conference centre would be targeted to co-ordinate with McMaster Innovation Park on the other side of Aberdeen Avenue.

May said the hotel would feature about 150 rooms in a structure up to eight storeys tall, with the possibility of twinning the tower in the future.

The plan would include sports-themed restaurants and a public square that leads onto the stadium itself, which would be situated at the west side of the site, close to Hwy. 403.

May said a possible block of townhouses would be designed to attract young buyers, helping to keep them in the city.

Brian McHattie, the city councillor whose Ward 1 includes the site, remains skeptical enough money to build the anchor for the project — the stadium itself — will materialize.

He said the football club’s announcement would have little significance until the funding gap for the stadium was resolved.

“The key now is if the province will come up with an extraordinary amount of money,” he said. “My intelligence tells me they may cap their additional contribution to around $20 million for the stadium.”

May said the province’s encouragement of the city and the team to complete their proposal indicates there is a good chance sufficient money will be available.

McHattie said national politics was a serious roadblock to coaxing more money out of Ottawa despite Hamilton hiring lobbyists to plead the city’s case.

He pointed out that Quebec City’s bid for federal money for a hockey arena was turned down, meaning politicians there would be watching closely for any extra money flowing to a stadium project here.

[SteelTown]

Cost of the precinct development will be $30-50 million.

We will be partnering with McMaster and Careport Centre to bring in conferences and trade shows.

Could locate the Canadian Football Hall of Fame into the stadium district.

[mattgrande]

Looks pretty nice. If only we could close the funding gap without more taxpayer dollars...

Who would want a townhouse there, though? Nothing like having drunk football fans / concert goers / businessmen walking through your front yard every other day.

[SteelTown]

http://www.900chml.com/Pics/Stadium%201.jpg
http://www.900chml.com/Channels/Reg/NewsLocalGeneral/Story.aspx?ID=1309366

[oldcoote]

townhouses? really? :koko:

[SteelTown]

More information, including a video

http://www.ticats.ca/page/stadiumupdatenov10

[bigguy1231]

Another proposal that is going nowhere.

The Ticats still aren't contributing any additional monies towards the stadium. Until they up their contribution substantially, this proposal is no different than any of their other proposals.

It looks like the same proposal as they had for the East Mountain, or any of their other ridiculous proposals, you pay for it we profit.

The city should just say no.

[coalminecanary]

At one point the thought of a new stadium was exciting. Now I just don't care. I wish the tiger cats and the stadium and frankly the pan am games would just go away.

[FairHamilton]

http://www.palladiumboots.com/exploration/detroit

I particularily like Part 3 (just after the 9 minute point) where the artist says that Detroit doesn't need any saviors; a huge chain store, a sports team - a proverbial "game changer". What it needs are entrepreneurs, artists, DIYers, thinkers....

That about sums up my feelings on the stadium.

[mattgrande]

At one point the thought of a new stadium was exciting. Now I just don't care. I wish the tiger cats and the stadium and frankly the pan am games would just go away.

I went to the East Mountain rally at Carmens (MC'd by Jason Farr, by the way) to see what they would say. One of the things Bob Young said was was "Hey, we're just disagreeing over the location. In most cities the fight is whether or not to build it at all."

At the time, he was right. Most of the people were all for a stadium, but thought it should be at the location of their choice. Now most people I talk to say we shouldn't even bother. My how times have changed in a few short months.

[geoff's two cents]

I don't like the render. A phony "main street" in a sea of parking? Aside from the obvious cheese factor, this will only act as a taxpayer-subsidized drain on adjacent small-business-oriented neighbourhoods (Locke, Dundurn, Westdale) - that is, if it works at all. If not, it'll just be a taxpayer-subsidized black hole. Now there's a lose-lose situation for you!

In any case, the render goes to show that there's nothing even remotely "downtown" or "lower city" about the proposal. It's got Ancaster, Stony Creek and East Mountain written all over it.

[Jon Dalton]

Tiger-Cats want stadium with hotel

A lot of people want a lot of things. I want my own building on James Street. I can't have one, because I don't have enough money. Same deal with the Ticats.

[emge]

At this point, it looks like this location's going to proceed. It's nowhere near the best location or even second-best location, but it has a couple advantages.

So I want the city to put a firm cap on their funding committment, OK whatever the heck BY wants now, and get on with important city stuff like LRT.

[markbarbera]

From what I understand the development of the hotel convention centre and sports entertainment area is all being financed through the Ticats and Osmington, being built on the portion of land the Ticats agreed to purchase from CP. Hostco and city funding is going to the stadium alone.

[drpgq]

Townhouses? Really? I wouldn't mind if they had a condo tower or two instead. At least there would be some more density, plus the chance to live right near the MIP would probably make it appealing.

[FRM]

Townhouses? Really? I wouldn't mind if they had a condo tower or two instead. At least there would be some more density, plus the chance to live right near the MIP would probably make it appealing.

student housing could work too

[mishap]

Who would want a townhouse there, though? Nothing like having drunk football fans / concert goers / businessmen walking through your front yard every other day.
You scoff, but there is a market for that. Some of the people living near Ivor Wynne truly enjoy the experience. Mind you, some only like that they can charge people $10 to park on their lawn. I just wonder how welcoming resident football fans would be to other sports and activities (like concerts) that a new stadium would bring. Personally, I wouldn't mind something like that right now, but maybe not so much when I enter my get-off-my-lawn years...

Townhouses? Really? I wouldn't mind if they had a condo tower or two instead. At least there would be some more density, plus the chance to live right near the MIP would probably make it appealing.
Gotta agree there. I was also thinking condo towers. There are going to be some good jobs in that area. I would think a lot of people would jump at the opportunity to live within a five-minute walk from work. Maybe the stadium "village" will have some facilities that could benefit year-round from having people living nearby.

[Jon Dalton]

It almost seems like the stadium is the only thing that doesn't fit in here.

[crhayes]

Looks pretty nice. If only we could close the funding gap without more taxpayer dollars...

Who would want a townhouse there, though? Nothing like having drunk football fans / concert goers / businessmen walking through your front yard every other day.

I would think this is not so different from living on Queen St. W. or College St. in Toronto. There are going to be nights where the street is loud and lively, and yet people are still attracted to live in the area.

I would be more turned off by living in a sea of parking.

[scott000]

I don't like it but it can work.

Essentially, the way the restaurant precinct survives is by operating as another Hess Village. On non-game nights, the bars and restaurants will be empty unless they market to the younger bar/club scene.

I'd like to see the precinct tie closer with MIP, it'd be a win-win for everyone.

On another topic, they better keep the old railway bike path running through. It'll provide a walking/biking route from Main St. W to the stadium/MIP.

[bluevue]

I can see the old railway bike path as helpful for westenders, but I can also see them taking it down and putting a 2 lane wide off ramp from the 403 to get people into the area....MIP and Stadium. I don't think the Aberdeen exits will be enough...and after they just spent the money on redoing the entire interchange....which hopefully can be expanded for increased stadium traffic. The good news is that there is access to longwood (and main) to get people in and out of 'city' as well as aberdeen (and queen st hill) to accomodate people from mountain if they don't come via 403. The obvious point would be to route all traffic game day before the game coming down Queen st....use both lanes downbound....and only travel west on Aberdeen, then swap it out after the game...just my 2 cents. I am sure the city isn't this far down the path yet....financing first...baby steps.

[waterloowarrior]

Reminds me of Glendale.... check out the proposal for the stadium at Lansdowne Park in Ottawa for something a little more urban.
http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/public_consult/lansdowne_partnership/index_en.html

[realcity]

I can see the old railway bike path as helpful for westenders, but I can also see them taking it down and putting a 2 lane wide off ramp from the 403 to get people into the area....MIP and Stadium. I don't think the Aberdeen exits will be enough...and after they just spent the money on redoing the entire interchange....which hopefully can be expanded for increased stadium traffic. The good news is that there is access to longwood (and main) to get people in and out of 'city' as well as aberdeen (and queen st hill) to accomodate people from mountain if they don't come via 403. The obvious point would be to route all traffic game day before the game coming down Queen st....use both lanes downbound....and only travel west on Aberdeen, then swap it out after the game...just my 2 cents. I am sure the city isn't this far down the path yet....financing first...baby steps.

exactly
that's why build it at the Waterfront --- the real waterfront

[bluevue]

indeed...they just shut down most of the city today for the santa claus parade....people want to be downtown for these kind of event....not at the meadowlands or east mountain. Traffic was rerouted and blocked off....and yes.... it works efficiently...west harbour had my vote all along, but I will take what we can get with the west end.

[realcity]

and they shut down the Linc to do the cancer walks and I think the most recent 'illness' walk they shut down the Redhill.

I'm glad they do stuff downtown. If Santa ever walks along Mohawk, it's time to get out of Dodge.

but why do the Cancer People want to walk along a cancer-looking, dead-stretch of pavement?

I'm talking about the Lincoln Alexander Expressway, I drive along that horrid stretch of wasteland enough as is, why would I want to jog along it? Can the Cancer People pick a more pleasant path.? Like the Rail Trail perhaps?

[realcity]

what will happen to the Rheem property now?

[bigguy1231]

and they shut down the Linc to do the cancer walks and I think the most recent 'illness' walk they shut down the Redhill.

I'm glad they do stuff downtown. If Santa ever walks along Mohawk, it's time to get out of Dodge.

but why do the Cancer People want to walk along a cancer-looking, dead-stretch of pavement?

I'm talking about the Lincoln Alexander Expressway, I drive along that horrid stretch of wasteland enough as is, why would I want to jog along it? Can the Cancer People pick a more pleasant path.? Like the Rail Trail perhaps?

Actually they used to hold the Santa Claus parade on Fennell Ave back in the 80's and I think up until the early 90's. It used to stage at Mohawk College.

[drpgq]

Actually they used to hold the Santa Claus parade on Fennell Ave back in the 80's and I think up until the early 90's. It used to stage at Mohawk College.

Yes I remember growing up on East 38th between Queensdale and Crockett and just walking over to Fennell as a little kid just to watch it.

[isaidso]

Any details about capacity, configurations, etc.?

[mattgrande]

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/278869--hostco-looking-for-stadium-plan-b


HostCo looking for stadium Plan B

The Pan Am Host Corporation has asked four GTA municipalities if they're interesting in building a stadium if Hamilton's plans fall through.

Last week, HostCo sent letters to officials in Mississauga, Brampton, Markham and Oshawa to gauge their appetites for building a 5,000- to 6,000-seat stadium that could be expanded to seat 12,000. According to Pan Am CEO Ian Troop, all four municipalities are interested. The letter was also copied to Hamilton city manager Chris Murray.

[padthai]

Glad to see our Mayor-elect already planning to move the City forward:

Mayor-elect Bob Bratina interprets the move as a sign that Hamilton could also introduce a new site if the CP rail yard proves to be too expensive...... (http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/278869--hostco-looking-for-stadium-plan-b)

Really? Another site?

[Jon Dalton]

If it doesn't work at the CP yard it won't work on any other site. Even if it was the West Harbour or the East Mountain the hoped-for private sector component would still be missing. That is the failure, not the location.

My question is why are they asking other cities about 5000 seat stadiums but not considering using McMaster's stadium? Is there a stipulation that the must spend money and build a new stadium, even if a suitable one exists already?

[coalminecanary]

And why the big farking deal about "legacy tenants" for Hamilton but no such requirement for every other city? This whole thing stinks. Let mississauga have it.

[bigguy1231]

And why the big farking deal about "legacy tenants" for Hamilton but no such requirement for every other city? This whole thing stinks. Let mississauga have it.

I have been saying that all along. Why are we being held to a different standard than other cities. We need our councillors and mayor to start asking that question of our MP's and MPP's.

[Nords]

Even if Hostco allowed us to consider say Confederation Park, there just wouldn't be enough time to study it. While land acquisition and remediation costs may not be an issue, there still would be that $50M shortfall for the larger stadium and there wouldn't be time to undertake the environmental analysis needed due to the proximity to both Lake Ontario, the various water courses and ponds in the park, ESA designated lands, floodplains, and HCA permits. Remember the whole turtle pond bru-ha-ha, it would be like that to the nth degree! That's putting aside any servicing issues, relocation/renegotiation with the HCA on Wild Waterworks and HCA's operating agreement, proximity to the highway and MTO issues, etc.

Still, it was ridiculous that the City wasn't allowed to study Confederation Park properly as with enough time, who knows, maybe the site could have worked. I have my doubts (I'll bet it just would have been too skinny and by the time you put in 3,000 to 6,000 parking spaces it wouldn't really be a park anymore). Plus, from a "city building" perspective it does nothing.

[markbarbera]

My question is why are they asking other cities about 5000 seat stadiums but not considering using McMaster's stadium? Is there a stipulation that the must spend money and build a new stadium, even if a suitable one exists already?

The field at Mac is already slated for use for Pan Am events. An additional stadium is also required.

[markbarbera]

And why the big farking deal about "legacy tenants" for Hamilton but no such requirement for every other city? This whole thing stinks. Let mississauga have it.

I have been saying that all along. Why are we being held to a different standard than other cities. We need our councillors and mayor to start asking that question of our MP's and MPP's.

There is a legacy requirement for all facilities to be built, including potential plan B sites. The type of legacy requirement is directly proportional to the type of facility being proposed.

Back in August when Mayor Fred was insisting on nothing but a West Harbour location, Hostco said fine, but without a legacy tenant that suits a 20K seat stadium, they would only consider funding a 5K stadium placed there. Since the city has no need for another 5K soccer stadium, alternate sites for a 20K stadium that suits the needs of the legacy tenant for such a structure were sought out, ultimately leading to the CP site being negotiated now.

If Mississauga et al wanted a 20K stadium they too would have to meet a legacy requirement for such a structure. While they do not have one for such a structure, they do have a legacy case for a 5K stadium.

[WentworthSt]

Don’t worry, it’s just Plan B
Fri Nov 26 2010

To all the people filled with angst by the fact that the Pan Am Host Corporation is asking four GTA cities if they’re interested in building a stadium should Hamilton’s plans not work out, we offer the following respectful advice: Take a deep breath.

This is nothing more, and nothing less, than what Pan Am organizers said they’d do. They need to have a Plan B if Hamilton’s tortured stadium play doesn’t have a happy ending. And if you think about the time they have to work with to identify a stadium site, do the requisite consultation and follow all the complex processes involved, you can easily understand why, after granting extension after extension to Hamilton, organizers need a fallback. This doesn’t mean Hamilton’s hopes, such as they are, are dead.

What it does mean is that the latest deadline, February, is real, and that if local stakeholders, essentially the Tiger-Cats, the city, landowners involved and the as-yet-unknown financial partners can’t get their act together by then, we can expect the Pan Am stadium to go elsewhere.

Whether that’s a big deal or not depends on your perspective. Certainly, the with Hamilton’s diminished involvement in the Games, it’s not the big deal it was. If you’re a loyal Tiger-Cat fan and agree the team needs a new stadium to be sustainable, it’s a very big deal. If you’re one of the taxpayers who isn’t at all sure about investing 45 million local tax dollars in a private business enterprise with limited benefit to the city overall, a successful resolution might be that the entire thing gets dropped and the city invest the minimum to make Ivor Wynne safe and sustainable for a few more years.

And if you’re among the growing number who are just sick to death of the story, you might want it to just go away. In any case, this is just another signpost along the road, not huge, and certainly not surprising.

Howard Elliott
Managing Editor
The Hamilton Spectator


Skyscraperpage has offered a fantastic discussion here in this thread... I wish it was half as good at The Spec's site (or at least I started reading here years sooner).

I'm writing a piece for an all-local news watch site (this is here in Ward 3 of Hamilton ON, http://WentworthStreet.ca/ ). I'm looking for some quotes on the big question here, ideally from some present or former Hamiltonians:


Do Hamilton council and Bob Young figure this out in time for a Hamilton Pan Am stadium?
If so, where do you bet it ends up? If not, where does the blame go?


Any thoughts appreciated... Post here or message me, if you prefer. And honestly, thanks...
Jeff

[matt602]

In all honesty I do not believe this issue is going to be figured out in time for a Hamilton Pan-Am. The CP site was hastily put together with little to no research, only to appease the Tiger Cats after their vocal opposition towards the city preferred (and well researched) West Harbor site. Council flip-flopped and this site pretty much came out of nowhere.

The Tiger Cats have put forth an incredibly weak offering of financial support leaving the city and other levels of government to foot the lions share of a stadium whose primary use will be of the Ti-Cats. To further add insult to injury, the stadium will be purely barebones. Paying everything to get nothing.

In closing, it won't end up anywhere. Hamilton will be excluded from the Pan-Am games entirely. I believe the blame goes toward councilors who flipped their decisions and the citizens of this city for being so caught up in a blind rage of the Ti-Cats threatening to pack up and leave when they didn't get their way.

[Berklon]

In closing, it won't end up anywhere. Hamilton will be excluded from the Pan-Am games entirely.

I really hope you're right as it would be a total waste of money.

[mattgrande]

Any idea what the legacy cases are for Mississauga, Brampton, Markham and Oshawa? I can't imagine many local leagues needing 5000 seats.

[markbarbera]

Any of the locations could use their well-established soccer clubs as evidence that a soccer academy would succeed at any of the sites. Soccer is huge in all these communities. It certainly wouldn't be a stretch to present the legacy for a stadium of this size as a varsity venue as well as home for a semi-pro soccer league (or lacrosse - I understand there's a TO team looking for a new home).

Mississauga could also make the case for a new facility for Sheridan College, but Oshawa would likely have the strongest case for a new athletic facility to add to the campus of Ontario's newest university.

Edit: Perhaps it wouldn't be as hard to imagine the legacy element if you consider the "plan B" 5K stadium being proposed for these cities will not be a permanent 5000-seat stadium, but something more like what had been proposed for Burlington several months back: 1200-1500 permanent seats with temporary seating added for the games.

[coalminecanary]

I still maintain that Hamilton is being held to a much higher "legacy use" standard. Or should I say double standard.

Is our community not committed enough to soccer to justify a major soccer franchise?

[markbarbera]

We already have soccer facilities of this size, while these other communities do not. What would Hamilton have to gain by another stadium of this smaller size? We don't have a need for a 5K stadium, but we do have a need for a CFL-sized stadium. Different facility requirements means different legacy requirements.

[mattgrande]

Any of the locations could use their well-established soccer clubs as evidence that a soccer academy would succeed at any of the sites. Soccer is huge in all these communities. It certainly wouldn't be a stretch to present the legacy for a stadium of this size as a varsity venue as well as home for a semi-pro soccer league (or lacrosse - I understand there's a TO team looking for a new home).

Mississauga could also make the case for a new facility for Sheridan College, but Oshawa would likely have the strongest case for a new athletic facility to add to the campus of Ontario's newest university.

Edit: Perhaps it wouldn't be as hard to imagine the legacy element if you consider the "plan B" 5K stadium being proposed for these cities will not be a permanent 5000-seat stadium, but something more like what had been proposed for Burlington several months back: 1200-1500 permanent seats with temporary seating added for the games.

I suppose it's entirely possible that it would be used for a college or university. You'd think the school would have to be more involved in the bidding process...

However, I think you're wrong about it being a 12-1500 seat stadium. Check the spec article, it seems to be saying it would be 5-6K permanent seating, with a possible expansion to 12k seats.

[coalminecanary]

Well however you want to look at it is fine - if you think it's fair then I won't change your mind.

The way I look at it is that the province's requirement for a "legacy" to be secured before they release funding is what enabled the CFL (using BY as their plaything) to throw a last minute tantrum that derailed the whole project.

We will not see any high profile pan am events because of this.

I sincerely hope we bow out completely and spend our hard earned dollars on some projects that can actually make a difference.

[SteelTown]

Looks like there will be no extra federal money for the stadium. I'd imagine Infurstructure Ontario will offer extra funding.

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/281226--no-more-pan-am-money-from-ottawa

[realcity]

It turns out the Katz guys are over in Quebec pulling the same BS when they were here. I suspect the Peg is next on their list until AB builds them a new arena from taxpayers money.

They were never serious about WH and Copps and Fred fell for it. We've been getting this from Edmonton since Pocklington owned the team. He used us twice.

[thurmas]

Well details of our stadium deal in Winnipeg just came out this evening. Looks like Asper and Creswin properties are out the Blue Bombers are on the hook for $70 million of the $190 million total cost. The club will stay community owned, they will apply a $2.40 ticket chrage to games and they will sell shares of the club to the public like the Green Bay Packers and Saskatchewan Roughriders. I am not sure if this is a model the ti-cats and Bob Young could follow in selling the club to the public through shares, and then the land Ivor Wynn sits on could help pay for a new stadium.

[BCTed]

It turns out the Katz guys are over in Quebec pulling the same BS when they were here. I suspect the Peg is next on their list until AB builds them a new arena from taxpayers money.

They were never serious about WH and Copps and Fred fell for it. We've been getting this from Edmonton since Pocklington owned the team. He used us twice.

The Katz guys did not ever commit to anything here. It was always pretty clear that they were doing nothing more than kicking the tires --- all of the mentions of Katz over the last few months have been pretty unnecessary.

[Anders Knudsen]

Well details of our stadium deal in Winnipeg just came out this evening. Looks like Asper and Creswin properties are out the Blue Bombers are on the hook for $70 million of the $190 million total cost. The club will stay community owned, they will apply a $2.40 ticket chrage to games and they will sell shares of the club to the public like the Green Bay Packers and Saskatchewan Roughriders. I am not sure if this is a model the ti-cats and Bob Young could follow in selling the club to the public through shares, and then the land Ivor Wynn sits on could help pay for a new stadium.

$70 million?!! Well that settles it, we're getting screwed. And they're community owned and people are still willing to pay. And guess how much govt money they're getting: $15 million from province plus $7 from the city. The rest is coming from a $90 million loan which stadium related development will pay back.

Meanwhile we have $100 million in government money and we're still asking for more because the team won't pay and good luck getting community ownership and it appears no one's considered any other financing models.

[mattgrande]

Well, I just emailed my councillor & mayor. I doubt it will do any good, since Farr's an East Mountain, let's-do-whatever-it-takes-to-please-the-Ti-Cats guy, but here's hoping.


Dear Councillor Farr & Mayor Bratina,

Since the Blue Bombers recently agreed to pay $70M towards their new stadium (http://www.winnipegsun.com/news/winnipeg/2010/12/10/16511536.html), can we use that as leverage towards the Tiger Cats? If the Cats were willing to put in $70M, we'd close that funding gap awfully quick.

- Matt Grande.

PS - Are we seriously considering moving two profitable businesses out of the CP lands to please the Tiger Cats? Really? I thought this city had more sense than that.

[BCTed]

Well, I just emailed my councillor & mayor. I doubt it will do any good, since Farr's an East Mountain, let's-do-whatever-it-takes-to-please-the-Ti-Cats guy, but here's hoping.

I don't know if the Blue Bombers solution will work. $70MM in debt may well cripple that club for decades to come, and I am not sure if porting something similar over to the Tiger-Cats is the best approach.

[mattgrande]

http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/D6AA5571-7B52-4AE4-9C36-A70722876C25/0/Dec15EDRMS_n95558_v1_81Notice_of_Motion__Merulla.pdf

Merulla is proposing scrapping it and renovating Ivor Wynne (again).

[mattgrande]

Bratina was on CHML this morning. Moving CP and Steelcare will be in the $70 - 90M range. I believe he used the phrase "stick a fork in it."

He also talked about examining the speedway and Confed Park in closer detail.

Can someone tell me where the speedway is? All I've heard is Upper Centennial Parkway. I grew up in that area, and I don't remember ever seeing a speedway...

[drpgq]

Bratina was on CHML this morning. Moving CP and Steelcare will be in the $70 - 90M range. I believe he used the phrase "stick a fork in it."

He also talked about examining the speedway and Confed Park in closer detail.

Can someone tell me where the speedway is? All I've heard is Upper Centennial Parkway. I grew up in that area, and I don't remember ever seeing a speedway...

Well that's probably it for a new stadium. No idea where the speedway is.

Maybe some renos for Ivor Wynne is the odds on option now.

[padthai]

Aberdeen stadium costs skyrocket

Emma Reilly
The Hamiton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/303553--aberdeen-stadium-costs-skyrocket

It will cost the city $70 to $90 million just to buy the CP rail yard earmarked as the site of the Pan Am stadium.

That brings the total funding gap for the stadium to at least $120 to $150 million.

Mayor Bob Bratina sent an e-mail to council Sunday afternoon alerting them of the news from CP Rail.

“Council has to make a decision on whether this is acceptable and whether any further negotiations should take place with regard to building a stadium on this site,” the e-mail reads. “If Council chooses not to continue, we then have to direct staff as to how to proceed with the “International Event Opportunities-2015 Pan Am games” stadium project.”

The new costs essentially kills the CP rail yards at Aberdeen Avenue and Longwood Road as a potential stadium site. Even without the $70 to $90 million cost of buying the land, the city was still falling $50 million short. The $70 to $90 million to buy the land doesn’t include the costs of remediation and business relocation.

HostCo has set a Feb. 1 deadline for Hamilton to come up with a plan for the stadium. It has also approached other municipalities about building a stadium if Hamilton’s plans fall through.

Councillors will have an emergency meeting Wednesday to discuss their options. In his e-mail to council, Bratina suggested that the city could look at Confederation Park as an alternate site.

“What I believe is that Confederation Park has always been considered a prime site and has to be evaluated,” Bratina said Monday.

“This is not the end of Pan Am in Hamilton.”

Watch thespec.com for updates.

ereilly@thespec.com

905-526-2452

[bigguy1231]

Bratina was on CHML this morning. Moving CP and Steelcare will be in the $70 - 90M range. I believe he used the phrase "stick a fork in it."

He also talked about examining the speedway and Confed Park in closer detail.

Can someone tell me where the speedway is? All I've heard is Upper Centennial Parkway. I grew up in that area, and I don't remember ever seeing a speedway...

Matt, the speedway was located on the East side of Upper Centennial just North of Mud St.. If you use Google Earth you can still see the outline of the oval in the satellite view.

It's basically the vacant land between the 2 driving ranges/golf courses.

[Nords]

It's also outside the urban boundary. Good luck getting the planning approvals for that site from the province. Although it is in the Elfrida area which is planned for long term urban development (but not for like another 20 years or something).