Tim Hortons Field | 40m | ? | Complete

[mattgrande]

I ask because the ones I've heard aren't that much better.

Confederation Park has many of the EM downfalls (car-only access, nothing really around it). It's very visible/accessible, but the land is owned by the Conservation Authority, and there's a good chance it would be necessary to tear down Wild Waterworks.

Kay Drage park seemed like a good option at first, but there's a lot of (expensive) considerations when building on top of former landfill sites. It's between the 403 and a rail line, but there's no room for a new interchange or station there. The only current entrance is Macklin Street, and there's not much space they could put another one.

I wonder if the reason the list hasn't been released is because they don't pass the common sense test?

An aside - Did the City AND Fenn propose EM? I thought it was Fenn's idea?

[Jon D]

Jon D the 'precarious situation' the city finds itself in is of its own doing. This is what happens when you plan to build on a site that is not economically viable for the intended tenant.

The city had ample opportunity to select an alternative sight in the lower city but vested interest in the WH land saw the engineering of a comparison of a weak location (WH) against an obviously weaker location (EM). Remember it was the city and Fenn that presented EM, not the Ticats. The city, instead of conducting a fair comparison against a site from the Ticat's list, instead encouraged a debate that would exploit traditional urban/suburban divisions. There was never any genuine intention on Eisenberger's part to resolve the impasse, it was all a dog and pony show.

The end result is this city is going to lose out big time on several fronts. We are losing the Ticats, who are a source of 25% of this city's overall entertainment revenue stream. That is a significant loss. Beyond that there is the charitable works conducted by the Ticats in this community that has been put at risk. And the cost for the loss in civic identity and pride is immeasurable.

We are also at risk of losing any kind of funding from Pan Am for any stadium on the waterfront. Even if in the unlikely event funding still goes through, the city will be saddled with a financially unsound stadium.

This is likely to go down in the record books as the worst decision ever made by city council in the history of Hamilton.

The problem is, if the west harbour trully wasn't economically viable for the ticats, then I don't see how any downtown location could have been. They would all suffer from the same lack of highway access. And I don't think any of them would have supported the bohemoth parking lot that the ticats wanted to use as a revenue stream. All that leaves us with is suburban locations....and kay drage park. That one might have been worth considering, however I wonder if there is sufficient existing parking in that area? There surely isn't room on site to accomodate 7,000 cars.

[isaidso]

I can't dispute that Mexico offers a bigger, new potential market to the NFL than Canada does.

What I find hard to believe is that there are already more NFL fans in sheer numbers in Mexico than in Canada.

It would be interesting to walk into a sports bar in Monterrey or Puebla and see if Marshall Faulk and Peyton Manning are household names to the good old boys hanging out there. I am pretty sure they are in Kitchener and Saskatoon.

I think Canadians have a little bit of a blind spot regarding Mexico. We like to think of ourselves as the US's closest cousin due to our nations having grown up together and sharing a common culture.

Football is definitely a bigger sport in Canada than Mexico; football originates from Canada. What gets lost on some is that the football market in Canada gets split many ways: our own domestic league, college football, high school football, and then US football on top of that.

In Mexico, the entire football market is geared towards what's on offer across the border in the US since the football sport system isn't developed in Mexico like it is in Canada. Then you've got a population of 110 million people that's growing much quicker than that of Canada or the United States.

Sure people in Saskatoon will know more about some US football player than a typical Pueblo resident, but in sheer numbers? Mexico is a nation 3 times the size of Canada that is 100% NFL territory. Canada is still Canadian football territory despite huge inroads made by the US game.

All pro teams in Canada play Canadian football. Almost every college/university in the country plays Canadian ball as do all the high schools. We're a football country, but the NFL only has some of the market share. They have all of it in Mexico.

[isaidso]

Not in Saskatchewan.


I'd argue that football is the #1 sport in Halifax too. Saint Mary's football is a big deal in that city and I don't see that changing any time soon. Halifax area schools are all about their football (and basketball) teams. It's SMU that gets the headlines down there.

[isaidso]

I was looking up some numbers for fun and the NFL does have a lot of room to grow in Canada.

For example, the average viewership for an NFL game on TV in the States is 17 or 18 million. In Canada, it varies between 400,000 and 750,000. If Canadians watched in similar numbers to Americans, Canadian NFL viewership would be around 1.6 million.

Interesting also is the fact that on average 15% of all households are tuned to NFL games in metros with NFL clubs. In markets without NFL clubs it generally drops to the 7 or 8% range.

One of the largest markets in the US, Los Angeles, is in the 7-8% ratings range for NFL broadcasts. This is about that same % of households that tune in to NFL broadcasts in southern Ontario.

So in theory at least, the NFL might double its TV ratings in southern Ontario if it had a team in Toronto.

But I don't think the NFL in Toronto would do much for the league in the rest of the country outside a few hundred km radius of Toronto. If anything, it might cast it in a negative light as others have said.

Interesting break down! Toronto NFL television numbers would surely go up if that league set up shop here, but the rest of the nation is another matter. The rest of Canada would still be Canadian football territory.

CFL television numbers top NFL television numbers in this country by a significant margin. Lots of CFL games surpass the 1,000,000 viewer mark. If Canadian football manages to further develop the sport nationally by putting teams in Atlantic Canada, Quebec City, Ottawa, and BC the numbers will only climb even higher. People want/deserve their own teams to cheer for and support.

It would be great if Canadian television numbers for our league could get up to US penetration rates or about 2,000,000 viewers/game. The US (309 million) has 9 times the population of Canada (34 million). The CFL would have to increase viewership by 50-90% to achieve that. Still, CFL television numbers are decent and a lot higher than people think. Then there's all the people that tune in to our league from other countries around the world. It's starting from a small base, but growing! :)

The CFL is a fabulous ambassador for our country. It showcases our culture and proves that we're more than just hockey.

[Anders Knudsen]

The problem is, if the west harbour trully wasn't economically viable for the ticats, then I don't see how any downtown location could have been. They would all suffer from the same lack of highway access. And I don't think any of them would have supported the bohemoth parking lot that the ticats wanted to use as a revenue stream. All that leaves us with is suburban locations....and kay drage park. That one might have been worth considering, however I wonder if there is sufficient existing parking in that area? There surely isn't room on site to accomodate 7,000 cars.

I think Young would have cut his parking demands back. Tom Jackson himself said he would have supported no more than 4000 spots, so I'm sure a middle ground there could have been found. Confederation Park for instance. It's not Coote's Paradise, you'd just be replacing one kind of outdoor activity centre with another, and really is Wild Waterworks so essential to our city? A Go station could be put in just south of it, it's on the bike trail and it's got the car access and parking.

[mattgrande]

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/249868--the-oshawa-ticats


The suitors are lining up to woo the Hamilton Tiger-Cats if the CFL team and city council can’t work out their stadium differences.

The Toronto Sun says Bill Steele, a candidate for Oshawa city council, is proposing that city tackle the Cats if things don’t work out for the team in Hamilton.

“We have been looking for attractions in Oshawa, and I think we can come together and make Oshawa the new home for Tiger-Cats,” Steele says.

“We can get the job done. It’s absolutely doable.”


I wonder what the citizens of Oshawa think of spending millions on a new stadium?

[realcity]

Wild Waterworks loses money. If it was privately owned it would've joined Prudomme's Landing a decade ago.

[Urban_Genius]

I'd argue that football is the #1 sport in Halifax too. Saint Mary's football is a big deal in that city and I don't see that changing any time soon. Halifax area schools are all about their football (and basketball) teams. It's SMU that gets the headlines down there.

Agreed. If and when Atlantic Canada gets a team, I'm sure that team will be a huge deal.

http://www.boxscorenews.com/the-rise-of-the-new-cfl-p466.htm?twindow=Default&smenu=68&mad=No

A good article for people to read, those who may not be aware of how strong the CFL is right now. Comparing some of the CFL's debacles of the 1990s to today are laughable. This is an American article btw.

[Urban_Genius]

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/249868--the-oshawa-ticats



I wonder what the citizens of Oshawa think of spending millions on a new stadium?

I think a lot of these municipalities are going after the Pan-Am funding. It's not a guarantee to be going to Hamilton. Also, I think if WH gets built, Bob Young will just go and build his own stadium off some highway like he wants.

[mattgrande]

http://www.thespec.com/news/article/249907--save-the-cats-rally-planned

A "Save the Ti-Cats" rally is planned, in Gore Park of all places?

[dennis1]

I think a lot of these municipalities are going after the Pan-Am funding. It's not a guarantee to be going to Hamilton. Also, I think if WH gets built, Bob Young will just go and build his own stadium off some highway like he wants.

so why hasn't he done that already?

[highwater]

Bob Young made two of the ten sites public in a discussion on RTH. One was the current site of the Chedoke golf course, which sits on NEC land. During the course of the discussion he suggested that since it was already zoned for a recreation facility, it wouldn't be too much trouble dealing with the NEC. I'm not sure if the NEC would agree that a 25,000 seat stadium with a 7,000 car parking lot would have a similar impact on the escarpment as a golf course.

The other site was the McMaster Innovation Park, currently Hamilton's best hope for attracting high quality employers. It is currently zoned as an Innovation District and the city successfully fought off efforts to convert it to big box retail. If the loss of revenue from the EM was a deal breaker, it's not hard to see why the city wouldn't take to the idea of a stadium and 7,000 car parking lot on Innovation lands.

If those are examples of the types of sites the ticats were suggesting, I think it's pretty obvious why they weren't taken seriously. Maybe Fred is doing the ticats a favour by not making their 'list' public.

[markbarbera]

Never mind the Ticats, Mayor Fred's 'favours' are doing irreparable harm to the city. All his term he does nothing then all of a sudden he digs in on this issue, and look at the dog's breakfast it has become.

[markbarbera]

http://www.thespec.com/news/article/249907--save-the-cats-rally-planned

A "Save the Ti-Cats" rally is planned, in Gore Park of all places?

I'll be there. And why not in Gore Park?

[SteelTown]

qjGiu7OHLDU

[dennis1]

cayuga anyone?

[markbarbera]

qjGiu7OHLDU

This is a pretty rendering, but I hope you realize this is not being built at West Harbour. This concept was abandoned weeks ago, and has zero chance of being revived without Ticat involvement at WH.

[BCTed]

This is a pretty rendering, but I hope you realize this is not being built at West Harbour. This concept was abandoned weeks ago, and has zero chance of being revived without Ticat involvement at WH.

This concept always had a zero chance.

[mattgrande]

I'll be there. And why not in Gore Park?

I figure this is to send a message to either Bob Young or Mayor Fred or both... So why not set it a One Jarvis or City Hall? Are people going to be able to get there? It's not on a highway, and there isn't a big parking lot nearby :P

[SteelTown]

Guess who’s not coming to the table?

DANIEL NOLAN
No available link at the moment

Sophia Aggelonitis has called Tiger-Cat owner Bob Young in an effort to get him to return to the negotiating table and have his football team play at a west harbour stadium.

The provincial cabinet minister follows councillors who have called Young since council voted 10-6 for the west harbour over the Cats’ preferred east Mountain site.

“I can tell you I have been in contact with Mr. Young, not for a few days though, but I have definitely spoken to him,” Aggelonitis said last night.

However, she was not able to move him away from his position.

Young says he can’t see negotiating unless council moves away from its position. He says the west harbour would be a money loser for the team.

Ottawa and Queen’s Park have committed $57 million to a stadium.

Asked if the province has offered more beyond its commitment, she couldn’t comment.

“At this time, the province has made a commitment and the money has never been taken off the table,” Aggelonitis said.

[eemy]

Does Bob Young come across like a bit of a spoiled brat to anyone else? Surely he realizes that this is a stadium for Hamilton as well, not just the Ti-Cats. Quite frankly, if the Ti-Cats were to move from Hamilton, I can't see it being too long before another team takes their place.

[markbarbera]

How is this news?

Bob Young has been quite clear to all parties involved he will not enter discussions about the Ticats at West Harbour because he will not locate his team there. He will enter discussions if other locations were being considered.

Jeremy: No, Bob Young does not come across as a spoiled brat. He comes across as a businessman who will not locate his business to a money-losing location. Since when is the desire to move from continued annual losses considered unreasonable?

[LikeHamilton]

Billy Kelly’s (900 CHML) comment this morning that can be seen on his blog titled “An Alternative To The Alternative ?” In it he states;

It may not be over yet! In a bizarre twist to Hamilton’s stadium soap opera, there may be an alternative to the alternative site that might get the Cats and the City back to the table. It’s not the West Harbour, it’s not the East Mountain, but, it is a Brownfield site with highway access.
http://www.900chml.com/Blogs/BillKellysBlog/BlogEntry.aspx?BlogEntryID=10133035

I am placing my money on land at McMaster Innovation Park (MIP). There is about 13 to 14 acres of land west of Longwood, north of Aberdeen and the 403 as its west edge. It is Brownfield, highway access and is very visible. I could see a land swap with the city giving the land they have bought from the power centre developer and the present warehouse site that MIP have. The province would come up with more money for MIP and the city to clean the land and build buildings quicker. Sophia Aggelonitis now gets to look into the provinces purse.

[Acajack]

I'd argue that football is the #1 sport in Halifax too. Saint Mary's football is a big deal in that city and I don't see that changing any time soon. Halifax area schools are all about their football (and basketball) teams. It's SMU that gets the headlines down there.

What about major junior hockey? The Mooseheads are close to being the attendance leaders in the CHL most years.

[SteelTown]

Billy Kelly’s (900 CHML) comment this morning that can be seen on his blog titled “An Alternative To The Alternative ?” In it he states;


http://www.900chml.com/Blogs/BillKellysBlog/BlogEntry.aspx?BlogEntryID=10133035

I am placing my money on land at McMaster Innovation Park (MIP). There is about 13 to 14 acres of land west of Longwood, north of Aberdeen and the 403 as its west edge. It is Brownfield, highway access and is very visible. I could see a land swap with the city giving the land they have bought from the power centre developer and the present warehouse site that MIP have. The province would come up with more money for MIP and the city to clean the land and build buildings quicker. Sophia Aggelonitis now gets to look into the provinces purse.

I wouldn't mind this location for a stadium, highway, trail access, near B-Line and inner City. But I think the property along the 403 edge would be tight.

Why not the property across Aberdeen near the rail yard, think Steelcare has a warehouse across the street.

[markbarbera]

Billy Kelly’s (900 CHML) comment this morning that can be seen on his blog titled “An Alternative To The Alternative ?” In it he states;


http://www.900chml.com/Blogs/BillKellysBlog/BlogEntry.aspx?BlogEntryID=10133035

I am placing my money on land at McMaster Innovation Park (MIP). There is about 13 to 14 acres of land west of Longwood, north of Aberdeen and the 403 as its west edge. It is Brownfield, highway access and is very visible. I could see a land swap with the city giving the land they have bought from the power centre developer and the present warehouse site that MIP have. The province would come up with more money for MIP and the city to clean the land and build buildings quicker. Sophia Aggelonitis now gets to look into the provinces purse.

There is the 16 acres that the city bought up from Trinity last year south of MIP. That would fit a stadium, but there still remains parking issues to be resolved. What was the estimated need for EM? 40 acres?

By the way, this is one of the ten alternate locations the Ticats presented to Fenn and the city during the 'facilitation'.

[markbarbera]

Been listening to the Bill Kelly show this morning. Apparently the new site being floated is this location here:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=43.254315,-79.906805&num=1&t=h&sll=43.253205,-79.904208&sspn=0.010815,0.027788&hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=43.253439,-79.906719&spn=0.010815,0.027788&z=16

It's the warehouse in between the highway and the rail yard.

Brad Clark was on the show. He is saying the strategy to get it as the site is to call a special council meeting, pass a motion declaring the WH location as failed (due to lack of legacy tenant) and instructing staff to proceed with plan B location. It would identify the site at Longwood and Aberdeen as the plan B site. Of course, a special meeting can only be called by the mayor...

[LikeHamilton]

Why not the property across Aberdeen near the rail yard, think Steelcare has a warehouse across the street.

The Steelcare property is owned by Steelcare or is leased from CP Rail. It would be easier to get a deal from Mac.

I believe the west harbour site is about 15 acres. Does anyone have its correct size? I cannot find it on the cities web site.

[mattgrande]

At first glance, this looks like a good location. What are the odds we can get a GO station there?

Pros:
- Downtown location
- Highway access & visibility
- Brownfield
- Not near residential
- I think the Aberdeen bus already goes there?
- Room for parking

Cons:
- No shops/bars/restaurants nearby
- No GO access planned
- Only one real entrance (Aberdeen)

[SteelTown]

Been listening to the Bill Kelly show this morning. Apparently the new site being floated is this location here:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=43.254315,-79.906805&num=1&t=h&sll=43.253205,-79.904208&sspn=0.010815,0.027788&hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=43.253439,-79.906719&spn=0.010815,0.027788&z=16

It's the warehouse in between the highway and the rail yard.


HA! I called this.

[dennis1]

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/250163--longwood-and-aberdeen-for-stadium

[LikeHamilton]

My sources at MIP told me that the city contacted them yesterday about the warehouse lands west of Longwood. They wanted to no the size of it and their plans for it and are they carved in stone. The people at MIP are sure that CP Rail owns the lands south of Aberdeen. It was once their rail car repair yard and it not owned by the city.

On Steelcare’s web site, the link to a location map is very old and it clearly shows it as CP Rail yard lands there. It is about 20 acres of land.

[markbarbera]

At first glance, this looks like a good location. What are the odds we can get a GO station there?

Pros:
- Downtown location
- Highway access & visibility
- Brownfield
- Not near residential
- I think the Aberdeen bus already goes there?
- Room for parking

Cons:
- No shops/bars/restaurants nearby
- No GO access planned
- Only one real entrance (Aberdeen)

There are shops and restaurants along Main by Longwood, and there is everything along Dundurn Street nearby.

GO has committed to putting a second station beyond james North to serve a stadium location. They were thinking Centennial but it doesn't need to be there. GO transit comes in every day along the CP track there, why not have an Innovation Park station?

Road access is Aberdeen via the highway, Main West and Longwood. Don't see that as a con. And the new LRT will be much closer in proximity than it would at the WH site.

[flar]

I think the only downside to this site is it takes away from the size of the Innovation Park. However, MIP could be expanded into the area where the big box complex was slated to go.

[mattgrande]

There are shops and restaurants along Main by Longwood, and there is everything along Dundurn Street nearby.

GO has committed to putting a second station beyond james North to serve a stadium location. They were thinking Centennial but it doesn't need to be there. GO transit comes in every day along the CP track there, why not have an Innovation Park station?

Road access is Aberdeen via the highway, Main West and Longwood. Don't see that as a con. And the new LRT will be much closer in proximity than it would at the WH site.

Yeah, I took a look... Dundurn and Main are both closer than I thought. Are they talking about the land North or South of Aberdeen?

It will be closer to the East/West LRT, but a few clicks from the North/South LRT, unfortunately. Honestly, though, who expects that to be ready on time?

Which GO line goes through there? My GO knowledge is only of the Lakeshore line.

[bigguy1231]

But where's the 100 acres of land for parking and future developement.

If this is being proposed by someone like Brad Clark I can't see it ever happening.

[markbarbera]

Yeah, I took a look... Dundurn and Main are both closer than I thought. Are they talking about the land North or South of Aberdeen?



Which GO line goes through there? My GO knowledge is only of the Lakeshore line.

The current service to Hamilton runs along the CP spur line from the waterfront to the rail delta just south of Main, then east from the delta parallel to Hunter to the GO Station at Hughson and Hunter. Instead of switching east at the rail delta south of Main, it can continue south to MIP, then return to the delta to head east into the Hunter Street station.

[Jon Dalton]

The current service to Hamilton runs along the CP spur line from the waterfront to the rail delta just south of Main, then east from the delta parallel to Hunter to the GO Station at Hughson and Hunter. Instead of switching east at the rail delta south of Main, it can continue south to MIP, then return to the delta to head east into the Hunter Street station.

This is a fascinating idea. But keep in mind how stingy CP is with with their track time, and that is the reason the CP line will not see all day service. I'd be interested to see what kind of usage this line gets south of the junction. I believe it essentially goes nowhere since the Brantford line was abandoned, and only exists to connect to the Aberdeen yard.

[SteelTown]

The scenery would be pretty amazing. View of the Escarpment in the background and the skyline to the East.

Just like in Montreal with Mount Royale in the background and the skyline.

[Jon Dalton]

It'll never happen but I'm just imagining how cool the GO stop would be if they put one there. The train would switch directions every time it goes through that junction. It would end up going backwards into MIP, then fowards into the forwards into the GO Station.

[Mister F]

Does Bob Young come across like a bit of a spoiled brat to anyone else? Surely he realizes that this is a stadium for Hamilton as well, not just the Ti-Cats. Quite frankly, if the Ti-Cats were to move from Hamilton, I can't see it being too long before another team takes their place.
Yes he comes across as a spoiled brat to me too. Nobody has conclusively shown that West Harbour would make the Ti-Cats lose money. If almost every other CFL team can survive without highway access and acres of parking, why can't they?

- Only one real entrance (Aberdeen)
If it's north of Aberdeen then Longwood would become another major access. They could extend Chatham St to provide a third access. Overall it looks like a pretty good site...assuming they can get around the problem of building the stadium in employment lands, which the province has some very strong policies to protect.

[Urban_Genius]

It's good to see a possible compromise.
I always wondered why their wasn't an alternate downtown site, one which may suit the the City and Ti-Cats needs better.

[LikeHamilton]

Some distances

Possible GO Station location on the line to the downtown GO Centre is 1.3 Km to the Steelcare site or 1 Km to the MIP site as the crow flies. I worked out a possible walking route and it is about 1.6 Km walk to the Steelcare site and 1.25 Km to MIP. A dozen shuttle buses could be used to move people. I think if they would be able to fill a GO train with that many people, they could bring special trains right to the stadium. GO could sell a train and game/concert ticket.

I had lived in the past just east of Gage Park south of King. People would park there to go to Ti Cat games and walk. It is 1.4 Km from the side of my house to the Balsam gates.

From the front of the 900 CHML/Y108/Vinyl 95.3 radio centre to the stadium at Steelcare is 0.9 Km or 0.6 at MIP. This would be the same for the LRT and some of the west end buses. They could bring a line up for use on days there are events there. I always thought the LRT should go through MIP always.

The nearest houses are the town houses on the south side of the CP Rail yards and just at the bottom of the golf course. That is less than 200 metres from the side of the Steelcare site and 400 metres to the MIP site. The houses to the east are about 500 metres to the Steelcare site and 350 metres to MIP. To the northwest, it is about 350 metres Steelcare site and 500 metres to the MIP site. I believe noise issues would not be an issue as HWY 403 and the CP Rail yards are a 24-hour and day operation and noisemaker.

Parking at McMaster would be anywhere from 2.5 to 3.5 Km from either site. Parking at the Fortinos Plaza is 1.5 to 2 Km away.

Driving/walking from Longwood and Aberdeen:


1.3 Km to Westdale Village
1.6 Km to the middle of Locke Street South
2.7 Km to the middle of Hess Village
3.6 Km to King and James
3.5 Km to Copps Coliseum
4.5 Km to Bay Front Park
5.5 Km to downtown Dundas


All calculated with Google Earth.

[oldcoote]

I don't like it.

The MIP is a great project, so it shouldn't interfere with that. Maybe if it was south of Aberdeen, but I think those are railyards.

This does nothing for the core. It has limited transit (for now). It would bottleneck traffic worse than the West Harbour (less access).

This is land that is already being developed. Put tax dollars to work where it might help revitalize a neighbourhood in need.

[paleale2]

I would be very much in favour of considering this new proposal, provided that there is a guarantee that the Setting Sail Plan for the West Harbour be followed through with.

At first glance, it would seem to be a win-win for both the city and the Cats; a scenario that should have been priority number 1 to begin with.

That being said, I do want to see more than just lip service being paid to the brownfield cleanup at WH. Mixed use residential, commercial, the velodrome, and perhaps and ampitheatre would be great in that location.

I think most of us are on board with the concept of the stadium being preferably in an accessible location in the lower city. This could tie in very nicely with future transit plans, and leave the east mountain to its inevitable sprawl, sans stadium......

Just my 2 cents

[dennis1]

Can anyone google map potential train sites? Thanks.

[SteelTown]

Been listening to the Bill Kelly show this morning. Apparently the new site being floated is this location here:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=43.254315,-79.906805&num=1&t=h&sll=43.253205,-79.904208&sspn=0.010815,0.027788&hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=43.253439,-79.906719&spn=0.010815,0.027788&z=16

It's the warehouse in between the highway and the rail yard.


*cough!* *cough!*

[SteelTown]

West harbour fans asked to support Ticats

http://www.thespec.com/sports/stadium/article/250204--west-harbour-fans-asked-to-support-ticats

A website encouraging supporters of the west harbour stadium site to buy Ticat tickets is being launched today.

The site, goticatswestharbour.com, says it’s mission is to show strong support of the football team can make it financially sustainable in a Pan Am stadium at the Bay and Barton Streets site.

“It’s no longer about the location within the city,” the mission statement says. “It’s about our Tiger-Cats being part of our future at west harbour.”

The mission statement, which stresses it is not associated with the Tiger-Cats, says it has picked up on a popular sentiment that buying tickets is a visible way to invest in the city through the Tiger-Cats.

A group of citizens led by businessman Mark Chamberlain initiated the website.

It will ask people to show their support for the Cats with a commitment to buy tickets, then pass on their contact information to the football club.

[thisisdan]

To me the Pan Am debate and the Ti-cats Stadium should dealt with separately:

The WH was chosen by the city to be the site for the Pan Am stadium, period. That stadium needs a legacy tenant to be accepted by Hostco and to get Provincial funding. The Ti-cats have said they won't play at the WH. So at this point, the city's attention should be focused on securing an alternate legacy tenant. Since this stadium will only be used for Soccer during the Pan Am games (we lost the track and field), it would make sense to find a semi-pro soccer team to play there after the Pan Am games are a distant memory (that day can't come too soon!).

If I were Mayor, I would be talking to the Hamilton Croatia soccer team that is part of the Canadian Soccer League (CSL).

The city should also be looking at scaling down the size of the stadium, considering that the original 15,000 seat stadium was designed for track and field - a much bigger event. Perhaps the city can save a few bucks by scaling down to a 10,000 seat stadium.

In a totally separate discussion, the City should also be looking at how to keep their one-hundred-and-something-year-old CFL football team. Why don't they start a dialog with the Bob Young about the 10 locations that were brought out during the Michael Fenn debacle. Better yet, why don't they look at the Ti-cats number one choice - Confederation Park and start contemplating how that might work.

Let's face it: WH supporters have what they want - a revitalization of some key waterfront brown fields, close to downtown.

Now, why don't we give the Ti-cats support for what they want? The city shouldn't/can't offer to pay for a new Ti-cat stadium, but they can certainly support the initiative. They can contribute - the Province would contribute, maybe even the feds. But more importantly, if we support Bob Young's ideal location, he will want to contribute to it. And he can start looking for financial support from local businesses between now and the end of the 2011 season.

Let's stop the drama and start city building. Vote the current city council out at the next election.

[matt602]

This new location at Aberdeen and Longwood was always my personal preferred site because it makes a compromise between what the Ti-Cats want and common city building initiatives. It has highway access and visibility with a fair amount of land to develop, whilst still being close to downtown and within the inner city. I would gladly push for this location over the West Harbour.

[geoff's two cents]

I don't like it.

The MIP is a great project, so it shouldn't interfere with that. Maybe if it was south of Aberdeen, but I think those are railyards.

This does nothing for the core. It has limited transit (for now). It would bottleneck traffic worse than the West Harbour (less access).

This is land that is already being developed. Put tax dollars to work where it might help revitalize a neighbourhood in need.

I don't like it either. We lived near Dundurn, and generally avoided it (unpleasant weekly grocery trips aside); downtown was where we preferred to spend most of our time and money. The West Harbor has the "wow" factor, along with the potential to augment downtown's north end as an entertainment district. The Aberdeen/freeway location, on the other hand, can only be considered "lower/inner city" in the broadest sense of the term; it's practically in Westdale. Moreover, it's not a good fit with MIP. I see no advantages in this site over the Ticats' present location at Ivor Wynne.

[BCTed]

The WH was chosen by the city to be the site for the Pan Am stadium, period. That stadium needs a legacy tenant to be accepted by Hostco and to get Provincial funding. The Ti-cats have said they won't play at the WH. So at this point, the city's attention should be focused on securing an alternate legacy tenant. Since this stadium will only be used for Soccer during the Pan Am games (we lost the track and field), it would make sense to find a semi-pro soccer team to play there after the Pan Am games are a distant memory (that day can't come too soon!).

If I were Mayor, I would be talking to the Hamilton Croatia soccer team that is part of the Canadian Soccer League (CSL).

The city should also be looking at scaling down the size of the stadium, considering that the original 15,000 seat stadium was designed for track and field - a much bigger event. Perhaps the city can save a few bucks by scaling down to a 10,000 seat stadium.


I bet that on the vast majority of nights, Hamilton Croatia does not even need a 1,000 seat stadium.

[SteelTown]

Media bites on Aberdeen site rumour

THE HAMILTON SPECTATOR
Emma Reilly
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/250276--media-bites-on-aberdeen-site-rumour

What's clear is that rumours flying around the city about building a stadium at a new site in west Hamilton are unfounded.

What isn't clear is where the rumours started.

Yesterday, media began chasing a Twitter report that the Tiger-Cats and the city were talking about building a stadium near Longwood Road and Aberdeen Avenue, near the McMaster Innovation Park.

Both the Ticats and Mayor Fred Eisenberger say the site isn't on the table and deny knowing where the proposal came from. But the appetite for the rumour is an indication of the high stakes of the Pan Am debate. With little more than a week before the Games' HostCo deadline of Aug. 31 and no signs of talks between the city and Cats, sources say people not directly involved are attempting to broker and publicize compromises.

"I would not be surprised if there were lots of well-meaning people that are trying to have all sorts of conversations with the Tiger-Cats," said John Dolbec, CEO of the Hamilton Chamber of Commerce.

There are several potential sources for the rumours about a Longwood Road stadium. The Mountain News reported that councillors knew of mid-level discussions that have taken place between the Tiger-Cats and city officials over the last few days. Spectator sources say the Tiger-Town Council members -- a group of high-profile community members who support the team -- are pitching options to help keep the Cats.

Mayor Fred Eisenberger dismissed the rumour as "speculation" and said the site was an option taken off the table during the facilitation with Michael Fenn. He stressed it's late in the process to adopt a new site possibility.

"Other sites were looked at, were deemed to be too complicated, not large enough, or other ownership would get in the way -- all those sorts of things were part of his, I think, assessment process," he said. "Now, at this late hour, time is certainly an issue."

Ticats president Scott Mitchell said he wasn't aware of the interest in the site before yesterday.

"It's the first I've heard of it -- just like everybody else," he said.

City Pan Am point person David Adames confirms the property came up during facilitation, but Fenn helped narrow the search to the ORC lands on the east Mountain. The site was considered during the 2003 Commonwealth Games bid but didn't make the short list because it would eat into key employment lands.

Council reaffirmed its choice of the west harbour for the stadium site last week. The Ticats have said they will never play at that site.

[Acajack]

To me the Pan Am debate and the Ti-cats Stadium should dealt with separately:

The WH was chosen by the city to be the site for the Pan Am stadium, period. That stadium needs a legacy tenant to be accepted by Hostco and to get Provincial funding. The Ti-cats have said they won't play at the WH. So at this point, the city's attention should be focused on securing an alternate legacy tenant. Since this stadium will only be used for Soccer during the Pan Am games (we lost the track and field), it would make sense to find a semi-pro soccer team to play there after the Pan Am games are a distant memory (that day can't come too soon!).

If I were Mayor, I would be talking to the Hamilton Croatia soccer team that is part of the Canadian Soccer League (CSL).

The city should also be looking at scaling down the size of the stadium, considering that the original 15,000 seat stadium was designed for track and field - a much bigger event. Perhaps the city can save a few bucks by scaling down to a 10,000 seat stadium.

In a totally separate discussion, the City should also be looking at how to keep their one-hundred-and-something-year-old CFL football team. Why don't they start a dialog with the Bob Young about the 10 locations that were brought out during the Michael Fenn debacle. Better yet, why don't they look at the Ti-cats number one choice - Confederation Park and start contemplating how that might work.

Let's face it: WH supporters have what they want - a revitalization of some key waterfront brown fields, close to downtown.

Now, why don't we give the Ti-cats support for what they want? The city shouldn't/can't offer to pay for a new Ti-cat stadium, but they can certainly support the initiative. They can contribute - the Province would contribute, maybe even the feds. But more importantly, if we support Bob Young's ideal location, he will want to contribute to it. And he can start looking for financial support from local businesses between now and the end of the 2011 season.

Let's stop the drama and start city building. Vote the current city council out
at the next election.

Does a city the size of Hamilton really need three stadiums?

Ron Joyce - 6,000

Pan Am/hypothetical soccer - 10,000-15,000

New Ticats stadium - 25,000-30,000

[flar]

There is also Brian Timmins Stadium for soccer, home of Hamilton's CSL team, capacity 5000.

[Acajack]

There is also Brian Timmins Stadium for soccer, home of Hamilton's CSL team, capacity 5000.

A lot of stadiums for a city (and country in fact) with a relatively weak spectator sports culture...

[mattgrande]

West harbour fans asked to support Ticats

http://www.thespec.com/sports/stadium/article/250204--west-harbour-fans-asked-to-support-ticats


First comment on that site: "It’s going to be too cold to watch a game at West Harbour."

wat?

[fenwick16]

I lived in Hamilton for a few years and enjoyed the city. Could someone tell me the location for the West Harbour location. I looked through a few articles but couldn't find an actual address. It is probably in this thread somewhere but ...

PS: I would like to see a stadium close to the downtown Hamilton core where it will benefit the city the most. Are thousands of on-site parking spots really necessary (other than to provide parking revenue to Bob Young)? The Rogers Centre does fine without on-site parking. Could a deal be worked out to provide Bob Young with parking revenue from city owned parking lots close by?

[SteelTown]

Try 128 Barton Street West, Hamilton, Ontario.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=128+Barton+St+W,+Hamilton,+Hamilton+Division,+Ontario+L8L&sll=43.26552,-79.871355&sspn=0.007438,0.013711&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=128+Barton+St+W,+Hamilton,+Hamilton+Division,+Ontario&t=h&z=16

It's everything from Hess to Bay from Barton and Staurt St.

[mattgrande]

Here, fenwick: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=227+Macnab+St+S,+Hamilton,+Hamilton+Division,+Ontario+L8P+3C9,+Canada&ll=43.266847,-79.87244&spn=0.006539,0.013937&t=h&z=17

Essentially, the area between Barton & Queen and Stuart & Bay.


Are thousands of on-site parking spots really necessary (other than to provide parking revenue to Bob Young)? The Rogers Centre does fine without on-site parking. Could a deal be worked out to provide Bob Young with parking revenue from city owned parking lots close by?


According to Bob Young, no. There is nothing anyone could possibly ever do to make the West Harbour work for him. He has proof, too. But he won't show you it.

[fenwick16]

Try 128 Barton Street West, Hamilton, Ontario.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=128+Barton+St+W,+Hamilton,+Hamilton+Division,+Ontario+L8L&sll=43.26552,-79.871355&sspn=0.007438,0.013711&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=128+Barton+St+W,+Hamilton,+Hamilton+Division,+Ontario&t=h&z=16

It's everything from Hess to Bay from Barton and Staurt St.

Thanks for the link. I don't see how this could be a poor site since it is relatively close to Copps Coliseum and the downtown. I have been to Copps Coliseum a couple of times (one was a sell out concert - Hillary Duff, since I took my daughter a few years ago) and I thought that there was plenty of parking. It also seems quite close to the 403. I don't know about the transit connections though.

[dennis1]

First comment on that site: "It’s going to be too cold to watch a game at West Harbour."

wat?

The water and the wind, etc.

[highwater]

Not half as cold in the sheltered harbour as it would have been at Bob Young's first choice of the open lakefront of Confederation Park, or up on the mountain where the weather's always a little harsher, and it's always a few degrees colder.

[dennis1]

Thanks for the link. I don't see how this could be a poor site since it is relatively close to Copps Coliseum and the downtown. I have been to Copps Coliseum a couple of times (one was a sell out concert - Hillary Duff, since I took my daughter a few years ago) and I thought that there was plenty of parking. It also seems quite close to the 403. I don't know about the transit connections though.

Not enough parking for the TiCats.

[BCTed]

There is also Brian Timmins Stadium for soccer, home of Hamilton's CSL team, capacity 5000.

It's actually Timmis with no N. It is a bit of a stretch to call it a stadium, because it is nothing more than a set of aluminum stands that were constructed 20 to 25 years ago for something like a couple of hundred thousand dollars.

I believe that one side of the stands has been torn down, so the seating capacity is probably about 2500 now.

[markbarbera]

Andrew Dreschel hit today's front page witha story about Eisenberger's behaviour during a critical juncture in the stadium debate:


Province offered city assistance for stadium
August 21, 2010
THE HAMILTON SPECTATOR

Mayor Fred Eisenberger admits the province told him they were ready to help make a stadium on the east Mountain work for the city.

Eisenberger says he didn't share that information with the rest of Hamilton's council before the crucial Aug. 12 stadium vote because the province didn't offer specific details.

The suggestion of assistance came earlier this month during a phone call with Premier Dalton McGuinty's office, informing Eisenberger that the province was tagging along with the federal government and would only fund a stadium on the east Mountain, the site preferred by the Tiger-Cats.

Eisenberger says he was also told during that "quick and shocking" conversation that the city now needed to start thinking about what it needed to make that work.

...

http://www.thespec.com/print/article/250474

This should be an eye opener on the kind of politician Eisenberger is. He felt no need to divulge this information to council despite the fact that, as mayor, it was his duty to inform council on all information related to the debate before going in. He had the Office of the Premier basically opening up a chequebook and saying 'how much will you need', and he felt council didn't need to know the province was willing to cover extra costs for a site that would have kept the Ticats in Hamilton??

Eisenberger supressed the details of the conversation because he feared it may affect the outcome of the vote, plain and simple. This is putting political survival ahead of the need for council to make an informed decision based on all the facts available. What else has Eisenberger kept from council?

Keynes once said "When the facts change, I change my mind". It would appear Eisenberger's take on this famous quote is 'Conceal the facts so people won't change their mind'. This is despicable. He has once again done a grave disservice to this city.

[Mister F]

Not enough parking for the TiCats.
If the Als, Argos, Eskimos, Riders, and Lions have enough parking, then WH has enough parking for the Ti-Cats.

[bigguy1231]

Andrew Dreschel hit today's front page witha story about Eisenberger's behaviour during a critical juncture in the stadium debate:



This should be an eye opener on the kind of politician Eisenberger is. He felt no need to divulge this information to council despite the fact that, as mayor, it was his duty to inform council on all information related to the debate before going in. He had the Office of the Premier basically opening up a chequebook and saying 'how much will you need', and he felt council didn't need to know the province was willing to cover extra costs for a site that would have kept the Ticats in Hamilton??

Eisenberger supressed the details of the conversation because he feared it may affect the outcome of the vote, plain and simple. This is putting political survival ahead of the need for council to make an informed decision based on all the facts available. What else has Eisenberger kept from council?

Keynes once said "When the facts change, I change my mind". It would appear Eisenberger's take on this famous quote is 'Conceal the facts so people won't change their mind'. This is despicable. He has once again done a grave disservice to this city.

He didn't suppress anything. With all that was going on that day why would he believe anything he was being told by an aide of the Premiers. This is just another attempt by outsiders trying to manipulate the process. There were no facts to conceal.

If it was a firm offer to give the city additional funding I would agree with you, but this was just another lame attempt to manipulate the process.

By the way, who leaked this to Dreschel and what was their political motivation for doing so.

[Migs]

He didn't suppress anything. With all that was going on that day why would he believe anything he was being told by an aide of the Premiers. This is just another attempt by outsiders trying to manipulate the process. There were no facts to conceal.

If it was a firm offer to give the city additional funding I would agree with you, but this was just another lame attempt to manipulate the process.

By the way, who leaked this to Dreschel and what was their political motivation for doing so.
Are you really this nieve? Its comments like this that are embarrasing your city. Its pretty obvious to those of us outside the box that your mayor has an agenda that is in his own best interest and not that of the city of Hamilton. Carry on, this is like watching a trainwreck, we can't look away......:koko:

[fenwick16]

Are you really this nieve? Its comments like this that are embarrasing your city. Its pretty obvious to those of us outside the box that your mayor has an agenda that is in his own best interest and not that of the city of Hamilton. Carry on, this is like watching a trainwreck, we can't look away......:koko:

The West Harbour site is close to downtown, with good transit connections, it is close to a major highway (403), and close to a large population (including Burlington). The East Mountain, in my opinion (maybe I am mistaken) is relatively isolated, unless you own a car, compared to the downtown site. I think that the Mayor of Hamilton knows that the West Harbour site is the best location and has stuck to his guns in spite of all the pressure. I think he should be commended for trying to do what will benefit Hamilton the most.

I think that Bob Young might want a stadium on the East Mountain simply so that acres of parking will be required from which he can claim parking revenue as his own. Acres of parking in a location that might not get much use, other than the CFL games, doesn't benefit the city. A downtown stadium site will be more visible and will likely get more use.

[bigguy1231]

Are you really this nieve? Its comments like this that are embarrasing your city. Its pretty obvious to those of us outside the box that your mayor has an agenda that is in his own best interest and not that of the city of Hamilton. Carry on, this is like watching a trainwreck, we can't look away......:koko:


No it's you who are nieve. The mayor didn't withold anything since nothing was offered.

This is all manipulation by the old boys club in this city, who are scrambling to get their way. They aren't used to council saying no to them. So they are pulling out all the stops trying to discredit the mayor and anyone else who does not see their point of view. A certain owner of 2 CFL franchises is using his political influence to try and manipulate the democratic process. The people on council know exactly where all of this BS is comming from.

[Berklon]

Are you really this nieve? Its comments like this that are embarrasing your city. Its pretty obvious to those of us outside the box that your mayor has an agenda that is in his own best interest and not that of the city of Hamilton. Carry on, this is like watching a trainwreck, we can't look away......:koko:

You think the city is embarrasing and posted a few times that you and your friends will no longer visit the city because of this stadium issue (as ridiculous a reason as that is) - so the question I have to ask is, why do you continue reading/posting in the Hamilton forum? Just trollin'? I heard Regina was boring, but is it THAT boring?

[Rottie]

You think the city is embarrasing and posted a few times that you and your friends will no longer visit the city because of this stadium issue (as ridiculous a reason as that is) - so the question I have to ask is, why do you continue reading/posting in the Hamilton forum? Just trollin'? I heard Regina was boring, but is it THAT boring?

Regina isn't boring, it's what you make of it. I can guarantee Regina won't lose the Roughriders over disagreements on where to put their new stadium and it will be a bloody shame if that happens in Hamilton. The CFL needs Hamilton and some people care more than others.

[dennis1]

If the Als, Argos, Eskimos, Riders, and Lions have enough parking, then WH has enough parking for the Ti-Cats.

I agree. I was just relaying Young's message.

[dennis1]

Andrew Dreschel hit today's front page witha story about Eisenberger's behaviour during a critical juncture in the stadium debate:



This should be an eye opener on the kind of politician Eisenberger is. He felt no need to divulge this information to council despite the fact that, as mayor, it was his duty to inform council on all information related to the debate before going in. He had the Office of the Premier basically opening up a chequebook and saying 'how much will you need', and he felt council didn't need to know the province was willing to cover extra costs for a site that would have kept the Ticats in Hamilton??

Eisenberger supressed the details of the conversation because he feared it may affect the outcome of the vote, plain and simple. This is putting political survival ahead of the need for council to make an informed decision based on all the facts available. What else has Eisenberger kept from council?

Keynes once said "When the facts change, I change my mind". It would appear Eisenberger's take on this famous quote is 'Conceal the facts so people won't change their mind'. This is despicable. He has once again done a grave disservice to this city.

I want confirmation from the province.

[Jon Dalton]

By the way, who leaked this to Dreschel and what was their political motivation for doing so.

I wonder:
-Which councillor has been the most opposed to the West Harbour and the mayor's leadership on the issue?
-Whose ward is the East Mountain (formerly) proposed stadium site in?
-Who has leaked stuff to Dreschel to get back at Eisenberger in the past?

Just wondering.

There were no 'facts' for Mayor Fred to disclose. There were unsubstantiated claims and suggestions from some representative of the Ontario Liberals. As we found out during the weekend before the Aug. 10 vote, such claims are not worth the bandwidth they take up on internet blogs, much less the paper they may or may not have been printed on, and much much less one minute of city council's time.

What the province has been consistent on from the beginning is that the stadium location is the city's decision to make, without interference from higher levels of government. That information is what council rightly acted on.

[markbarbera]

I wonder:
-Which councillor has been the most opposed to the West Harbour and the mayor's leadership on the issue?
-Whose ward is the East Mountain (formerly) proposed stadium site in?
-Who has leaked stuff to Dreschel to get back at Eisenberger in the past?

Just wondering.

There were no 'facts' for Mayor Fred to disclose. There were unsubstantiated claims and suggestions from some representative of the Ontario Liberals. As we found out during the weekend before the Aug. 10 vote, such claims are not worth the bandwidth they take up on internet blogs, much less the paper they may or may not have been printed on, and much much less one minute of city council's time.

What the province has been consistent on from the beginning is that the stadium location is the city's decision to make, without interference from higher levels of government. That information is what council rightly acted on.

I'm afraid that simply isn't the case.

The mayor was given new information at this meeting. He was told that the province was amenable to assisting with additional costs that may be associated with the alternative to WH. Whether or not a specific amount was discussed is irrelevant. The fact that there was a willingness to put forward more cash should have been reported to council, and it was not.

Your attempt to downplay the conversation as something said by a representative of the Ontario Liberals is also inaccurate. Eisenberger was talking to the Premier's proxy - the person designated to speak on his behalf when the Premier is absent. This not the comment of 'just some aide'. And seeing as Eisenberger himself confirmed the conversation took place between himself and the Premier's Proxy, how is it unsubstantiated?

You are right that the province has been clear that the decision was the City's to make, but how can a clear and fair decision be made when some of the facts surrounding the decision are being supressed by the mayor?

[markbarbera]

David Estok, former Editor of the Hamilton Spectator, had an excellent opinion piece in today's Spec. Here is an exerpt (I have highlighted key points):



...What happened? A once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, $60 million in federal and provincial funding, a brand new stadium, an important strategic linkage with the GTA, a cost effective and efficient way to replace an aging Ivor Wynne Stadium, and a new sense of pride and purpose for our city, all lost. A spirit of unity and a sense of a community working toward a common goal. All at risk.

Somehow we drifted into a confrontation that only hardened positions as time went on. Somehow we stopped listening and started competing against each other. We became more interested in who would win, not what might be right. It was a game of one-upmanship, fuelled by rhetoric, anger and confusion.

To those outside Hamilton it has been a moment of amusement or bewilderment. What city that has spent decades trying to win a National Hockey League franchise would turn its back on the only professional sporting team in town? What community that spends endless amounts of good will and effort in trying to win three different international games, and having finally won a battle, loses the war and walks away from its moment of glory?

Which citizens of this city can have faith in the knowledge that cooler heads prevailed and logic and reason won out, and in the end the best deal for everyone -- everyone, all sides, not one side against the other, or one site versus another -- carried the day?

"I am at a loss," says one of the original members of the committee to bring the Games here.

"In Hamilton, they shoot real bullets," says another, noting our political culture has a long, deep and ingrained history, and that the debate has poisoned the city's business environment.

I talk about Hamilton and the Tiger-Cats everywhere I go. Friends from across the country have called me these past few days, stunned and bewildered.

"Can it really be true?" asks a friend from high school who has lived in Calgary since 1980.

"Isn't it just a bluff for a better deal?" says another, an academic from London, Ont.

"Surely they will work this out?" asks a third from Vancouver.

Unfortunately, my answers, to them and all the others who have called, are the same.

Yes, it is true.

No, it is not a bluff.

And this will not work out unless both sides move to a third site.

...



from A lifelong fan fears for his team and city
David Estok
THE HAMILTON SPECTATOR
Aug 21, 2010

http://www.thespec.com/opinion/article/250603--a-lifelong-fan-fears-for-his-team-and-city

[bigguy1231]

I'm afraid that simply isn't the case.

The mayor was given new information at this meeting. He was told that the province was amenable to assisting with additional costs that may be associated with the alternative to WH. Whether or not a specific amount was discussed is irrelevant. The fact that there was a willingness to put forward more cash should have been reported to council, and it was not.

Your attempt to downplay the conversation as something said by a representative of the Ontario Liberals is also inaccurate. Eisenberger was talking to the Premier's proxy - the person designated to speak on his behalf when the Premier is absent. This not the comment of 'just some aide'. And seeing as Eisenberger himself confirmed the conversation took place between himself and the Premier's Proxy, how is it unsubstantiated?

You are right that the province has been clear that the decision was the City's to make, but how can a clear and fair decision be made when some of the facts surrounding the decision are being supressed by the mayor?

There was no meeting. The supposed offer, which wasn't really an offer, came in the same call that indicated to the mayor that the province and the feds would only support the EM. That was from an aide to the Premier. Go back to the spec site and reread the article and the new sidebar with the mayors denial.

In fairness, you might also want to post that sidebar with the Mayor's statement.

[Migs]

You think the city is embarrasing and posted a few times that you and your friends will no longer visit the city because of this stadium issue (as ridiculous a reason as that is) - so the question I have to ask is, why do you continue reading/posting in the Hamilton forum? Just trollin'? I heard Regina was boring, but is it THAT boring?
Trust me, I don't care about the city of Hamilton (by the charade that's going on there now, seems like many of you don't either), I care about the CFL. And as far as Regina being boring, well all you have to do is watch a CFL game in Regina and you'll see how boring it is. :rolleyes:

[Migs]

No it's you who are nieve. The mayor didn't withold anything since nothing was offered.

This is all manipulation by the old boys club in this city, who are scrambling to get their way. They aren't used to council saying no to them. So they are pulling out all the stops trying to discredit the mayor and anyone else who does not see their point of view. A certain owner of 2 CFL franchises is using his political influence to try and manipulate the democratic process. The people on council know exactly where all of this BS is comming from.
BS, the mayor was offered vital info from the province (and withheld it, whoops:rolleyes: ) that could've swayed many councillors' vote, that is a fact. Sad thing is that some of you dont' see the forest for the trees.

[bigguy1231]

BS, the mayor was offered vital info from the province (and withheld it, whoops:rolleyes: ) that could've swayed many councillors' vote, that is a fact. Sad thing is that some of you dont' see the forest for the trees.

It wouldn't have swayed any of the councillors since there was nothing to sway them. They dealt with facts not rumours. It took them 11 hours of reports and presentations before they made a decision. You would think that someone from the government would have come forward at that time to say something. Especially considering how politically charged this issue is.

This was just another rumour being spread by the losing side trying to discredit the Mayor and councillors who voted for the West Harbour. It's backfiring just like the rumour about the feds and province only supporting the East Mountain. All this is going to do is further the resolve of those who support the West Harbour.

The old boys are in panic mode. It's going to get real dirty before this is over.

[Berklon]

Trust me, I don't care about the city of Hamilton (by the charade that's going on there now, seems like many of you don't either), I care about the CFL. And as far as Regina being boring, well all you have to do is watch a CFL game in Regina and you'll see how boring it is. :rolleyes:

Maybe you should stick to the CFL threads then, huh?

So a CFL game is what makes Regina exciting? The envy of the world, I'm sure.

[BCTed]

Maybe you should stick to the CFL threads then, huh?

So a CFL game is what makes Regina exciting? The envy of the world, I'm sure.

Re-read what Migs said. He stated that Regina exhibits its non-boringness through its CFL games. He did not say that the CFL made Regina exciting.

[Berklon]

Re-read what Migs said. He stated that Regina exhibits its non-boringness through its CFL games. He did not say that the CFL made Regina exciting.

Whatever he means, he should stop trolling in the Hamilton forums.

[mattgrande]

BS, the mayor was offered vital info from the province (and withheld it, whoops:rolleyes: ) that could've swayed many councillors' vote, that is a fact. Sad thing is that some of you dont' see the forest for the trees.

If it was a real offer, it should've been in writing, and made in something more than a phone call. It should've been made public, by the province. And an offer of "Hey, we might be willing to help out more, maybe, but we won't say how much," isn't really an offer.

[highwater]

BS, the mayor was offered vital info from the province (and withheld it, whoops:rolleyes: ) that could've swayed many councillors' vote, that is a fact. Sad thing is that some of you dont' see the forest for the trees.

It wasn't 'vital' information, it was vague information which was then contradicted when the province backtracked on its support for EM and reaffirmed its previous position that it was the city's decision.

I suppose Eisenberger should have said "oh yeah, right before the province flip-flopped, they made a few vague noises that they might be willing to make the EM site not suck quite so badly for us, but that was before public pressure forced them to leave the decision in our hands." The only councillors' votes that might have been 'swayed' by that were Clark, Whitehead, and Jackson.

And Merulla has alot of nerve getting huffy about the mayor. He's against building a stadium anywhere at any price. It's the height of hypocrisy to suggest this vague bit of 'news' would have swayed him in any way. Like Clark and Di Ianni, he's just cynically using this to bash the mayor.

[markbarbera]

The apologists for the mayor will try to spin out the damage control on this, but the fact remains the mayor once again has demonstrated poor judgement in the handling of the stadium issue. He ought to have shared the details of the conversation with council. It doesn't matter whether or not the information would have swayed votes one way or another, it was his duty as mayor to disclose discussions with the Premier's office, particularly when it pertains to such a crucial civic topic. The fact that he is a WH harbour supporter does not mean fellow WH supporters should just turn a blind eye to his shortcomings as mayor.

[dennis1]

Migs what does Regina have besides the CFL? Now I want to visit.

[dennis1]

When is this over? Aug 31 right?

[markbarbera]

Article recently posted on thespec.com:

Angry councillors demand emergency meeting
Mayor denies any specific offers made

Some councillors say Mayor Fred Eisenberger should have shared a provincial offer of aid before they voted in a Pan Am stadium site.
Hamilton councillors are calling for an emergency council meeting to discuss the province’s offer to Mayor Fred Eisenberger of city-building incentives in exchange for foregoing a west-harbour stadium.

Councillors are also suggesting the matter should be investigated by the integrity commissioner.

Spectator columnist Andrew Dreschel reported Saturday that earlier this month, during a phone call with Premier Dalton McGuinty's office, the province informed Eisenberger it was ready to help make a stadium on the east Mountain work for the city. Spectator sources have said the province also offered to assist with city-building incentives in exchange for no stadium in the west harbour.

Eisenberger says he didn't share that information with the rest of Hamilton's council before the crucial Aug. 12 stadium vote because the province didn't offer specific details.

In e-mails sent among councillors yesterday, Bob Bratina called the situation “an outrage” and called for the matter to come before council in “emergency session as soon as possible.”

“Mr. Eisenberger has made a mockery of the facilitation process and council's right to make informed decisions,” wrote Bratina. “Unfortunately we will have to rely in large part on Mr. Eisenberger's version of what may or may not have been said or taken place. That may call for some form of inquiry with the requirement of sworn statements. This is very serious.”

Councillor Dave Mitchell responded with a request for Earl Basse, the city’s integrity commissioner, to look into the mayor’s conduct.

“I believe its time for the integrity Commissioner to investigate this matter,” he wrote.

The mayor sent a statement yesterday denying any provincial offers were made to help build a stadium at the east mountain, to redevelop the west harbour, or to accelerate other major city projects in need of provincial funding.

“Any suggestion to the contrary is inaccurate, false and misleading,” reads the statement.

However, not all councillors are expressing their anger with the mayor. In the same chain of e-mails sent yesterday afternoon, Councillor Brian McHattie said he has faith in the mayor’s statement.

“Mayor Fred just clarified that there are no offers of this type made by the Province. That's good enough for me as I take him at his word,” wrote McHattie. “If this is driven by a dislike of the west Harbour location, I can only say that council has taken a position on this and Council should now adhere to this rather than jumping on media stories or starting rumours about new sites being considered such as the Longwood site the other day.

“If others want to run for mayor and wish to discredit Mayor Fred as a tactic, then please declare for mayor and let this be out in the open. It’s only fair.”

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/250693--angry-councillors-demand-emergency-meeting

[Migs]

Migs what does Regina have besides the CFL? Now I want to visit.
Well lets see, we have the RCMP, Wascana Park (bigger than Central Park in NYC), the Saskatchewan Science Centre, the Regina Pats, oil that makes Texas jealous, Global Transporation hub, potash (have you seen the stock markets this past week?), diamonds, Casino Regina, uranium, booming economy, and the lowest unemployment in the country. And that is just off the top of my head.....But I do have to admit, one thing we are lacking is smoke stacks. ;)

For over a thousand images of Regina, check out my sig......

[urban_planner]

Hey Migs
Congrats your like every other ignorant person out there who thinks hamilton is nothing but smoke stacks. I've been to your little city and its nothing great. I couldn't wait to leave in fact. I was only like 8 years old and even at a young age I knew that it sucked.

[realcity]

Migs im glad to have you here on the Hamilton forums. As you can see it is mostly made up of a mob of one-way thinkers who hurl insults at people whom don't agree with them or merely have a different perspective. And who still can't thick-skin smoke-stake jokes. Hamilton has them and I'm proud of the stacks. Last time I checked the world needed steel, it has to be made somewhere. Even bussess and bicycles are made from steel. *If only a bicycle can be built from hemp*.

nice blog site, Regina is a beautiful city and SK in general is poised to be a very wealthy province. It's Canada's bread belt and a natural resource phenomena. It also could generate lots of solar and wind power.

[bigguy1231]

The apologists for the mayor will try to spin out the damage control on this, but the fact remains the mayor once again has demonstrated poor judgement in the handling of the stadium issue. He ought to have shared the details of the conversation with council. It doesn't matter whether or not the information would have swayed votes one way or another, it was his duty as mayor to disclose discussions with the Premier's office, particularly when it pertains to such a crucial civic topic. The fact that he is a WH harbour supporter does not mean fellow WH supporters should just turn a blind eye to his shortcomings as mayor.

Tell us exactly how you know what was said in the telephone conversation between the mayor and the premiers aide. Were you there, was there a third party on the line recording what was said. This is nothing but rumours being spread by whiny children who didn't get their own way.

Until you and anyone else can definitively prove that something was offered then nothing was offered. It's all BS. You and your like are the accusers, the onus is on you to prove it.

[Jon Dalton]

Does anyone know who made this supposed offer to mayor Fred? Their name and their position? Does anyone know what they actually said? Until someone can answer that, there aren't any facts.

[Anders Knudsen]

The apologists for the mayor will try to spin out the damage control on this, but the fact remains the mayor once again has demonstrated poor judgement in the handling of the stadium issue. He ought to have shared the details of the conversation with council. It doesn't matter whether or not the information would have swayed votes one way or another, it was his duty as mayor to disclose discussions with the Premier's office, particularly when it pertains to such a crucial civic topic. The fact that he is a WH harbour supporter does not mean fellow WH supporters should just turn a blind eye to his shortcomings as mayor.

I agree with you. This is a pretty serious and damaging assertion. I have a few concerns - first why the Province was so supportive of the East Mountain. I don't understand their motive, and it smells like a backroom deal. But despite this he may well have lost us both a stadium and an extra recompense for city building. However much I hate the East Mountain I'd have been ok with it if we got something else in return.

[dennis1]

Mark is probably right.

This means that McGuinty has violated the places to grow act. This now means Vaughan and Markham and Oshawa et al with probably file suit to start sprawling again. And they should. If Hamilton does not have to play by the rules why should they.

[dennis1]

Guys we need to chill and be civil here. Come one now this is important, but not enough to attack other people IMO.