Sacramento Proposal/Approval/Construction Thread - III

[wburg]

It should be noted that the State did manage to build one site on R street. Between 15th and 16th, Q and S is a state complex. It does inject some employment into the area, but like most State buildings it is devoid of street life.

There were clearly planning on demoing the ICE Blocks site for more State buildings. I believe this complex being built is what promoted the current R street plan to preserve the industrial character. .

The State didn't build that building, it was built by the Benvenuti family. It's called Benvenuti Plaza, and it is leased to the state.

The Crystal Ice plant was owned by AKT, who wanted to build tall office buildings on the site. Here's what the developer had to say about the idea of housing in his vision for the Crystal Ice property:


Tsakopoulos was able to get a special City Council exemption for his proposal to build two office buildings at 16th and R streets, winning the right to have the project evaluated before an overall plan for the area is established.

He insists that office development - not housing - belongs next to light rail stops. Housing should be at least a few blocks away, he said, and he has proposed providing a site for housing on land he owns on L Street.

"Because of its location on the light rail stop," Tsakopoulos said, "it would be a crime to put housing on that property. The whole idea of light rail is to bring people into downtown for their jobs. The housing can be two or three blocks away. We are basing our policy on sound planning procedures."

The current Ice Blocks plan, restoring the Crystal Ice plant with a half-block of new midrise housing and a half-block of office/retail, is the end result of that shift in focus by the city from office blocks that went dead at 5 PM to a mixed-use urban neighborhood, brought on by a bunch of community activists whose ideas about urban planning and development were a couple of decades ahead of the local builder community. Thankfully, today a new generation of developers has caught on, and are turning those visions into a reality--instead of a reality of R Street as boring office-tower canyon that empties out at 5 PM like its neighboring office zones to the north. Instead, people call R Street "the new Midtown"--the neighborhood that was revitalized by, guess who, that same bunch of community activists!

[innov8]

Where do you get this stuff? Between I-5 and 8th Street, in addition to the surface parking and two warehouses, there's a block of office buildings at 3rd and R, two blocks of CalPERS office buildings between 3rd and 5th, another couple of office buildings between 4th and 6th, SoCap Lofts between 6th and 7th. The offices that did get built along the R Street corridor are about as "vibrant" as the rest of Capitol Mall, but the stuff that's drawing lots of attention today is focused farther east

And I notice your line is drawn in the sand at 8th Street...wonder why you don't bother mentioning anything east of that point, which (again, as I was told) was where a lot of the focus of R Street was, between 8th and 16th and points east--and where the bulk of the projects I mentioned, recent and forthcoming, are located.

Well, as I said, I wasn't there at the time, nor was I interested in the subject back then, so I don't have the direct experience of older folks like you, most of what I know is what I have heard from much older activists who were involved in the effort. So, I should perform my due diligence and take a look at the Bee archives to see if what I was told reconciles what you're saying here.

Okay, so the project didn't actually include any housing--it was assumed that it would create the need for nearby housing units, but no housing was planned for the project itself. That has been the downtown developer party line for a long time--if they just build enough office buildings, someone will get around to building lots of residential units nearby, at some indeterminate future point. If it's happening somewhere else and the developer building the offices isn't building the housing, it's not part of the project. So, this puts your claim that the project was to include 4300-7500 "nearby" housing units squarely into the "making stuff up" category.

As to this River Tower, well, I stand corrected. A two-story apartment building on top of a 32 story office building. So, not 100% office. Just, oh, 94% office. 20 apartments, 400 or so feet off the ground. I suppose it fits the 1980s idea of keeping the wealthy people as far as possible from the dangerous lumpenproletariat of the streets, but that little housing in such a big project wouldn't exactly do much to liven up the pedestrian experience.

My original conversation with Majin had to do with projects killed by activist,
my examples were the eight towers on R Street, thanks for tossing in
another example on 16th. I never saw any real plans submitted to the city
for proposals above 10th street in the 1980’s… lots of talk but no real action
was taken to submit an application like the proposals I referenced. You had
to go into the mid 90”s back up your assertion.

The conditions for building California Capitol Center + housing had to do with
the high-rise portion subsidizing the new housing to make it “Affordable.”
Land prices back then on the R Street corridor were $30 to $50 per square
foot which was already too high for most residential developers at that time.
If it was profitable and in demand, multiple developers would have been
scrambling to build housing… but they weren’t, even with the real estate
market booming. Therefore, with subsidies paid from the high-rise portion,
housing would be built over several years just like the high-rises portion
of the proposal. Now 27 years later, absolutely nothing has changed from I-5
to 10th street, lots and lots of surface parking lots.

It’s hilarious that the River Tower does not meet your housing criteria for
urban living. Do you feel the same way about the Marriot Residence Inn on
15th Street with 30 condos on the top two floors or the soon to be
completed Downtown Plaza Tower with 69 condos on the top 4 floors?
Are these also filled with same kind of people who are “wealthy people as far
as possible from the dangerous lumpenproletariat of the streets.” The River
Tower was trying something never done in Sacramento (mixed-use
high-rise) and if they would have had a chance to build and succeeded,
more mixed-use towers most likely would have risen. At the time, there
were no similar products in that market so this was a big risk to the
developer. Even as recently as 2001 the failed Metro Place had 114
apartment planned for the top 10 floors of the 31 story tower? Instead the
city had to wait till 2005 and the Marriot Residence Inn mid-rise to finally
succeed in doing the same thing but with a midrise. Housing 30 floors above
the street or one floor above the street is all the same in the end, an
increase in the urban population who tend to spend their money there too.
If you object to mixed-use high-rises but not mixed-use midrise, what does
that say about you?

[Majin]

Finally someone else besides me calling wburg out. I'm enjoying this https://mysonata.ru/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

[wburg]

"Now 27 years later, absolutely nothing has changed from I-5
to 10th street, lots and lots of surface parking lots" is a false statement. It's simply not true. I'm pretty sure you have been to downtown Sacramento in the past 27 years, how could you make this kind of assertion without knowing it's a lie?

I wasn't in a position to support or object to that particular mixed-use highrise--all I said was that I wasn't particularly impressed by it as an example, especially after your false claims about the other project's nonexistent residential component. Metro Place at 8th & K would have been better at 31 stories, given its location. There are plenty of good places for mixed-use highrises. That doesn't mean that everywhere is a good place for mixed-use highrises, and part of why projects don't get built is because of artificially inflated land prices brought on by speculator-driven market booms. It makes money for real estate guys selling the same block of land over and over to assorted suckers, while whatever buildings are on the land continue to decay or remain underutilized (or remain parking lots) for decades. But the areas that were rezoned to the new R Street plan are looking very different--which bolsters the argument that, perhaps, there are appropriate places for mid-rise mixed use buildings and high-rise mixed use buildings, but not necessarily in the same place, or in every place? It's called having standards--not NIMBY, not YIMBY, but QUIMBY--quality in my backyard. But, of course, the Sacramento pro-development party line is "Anyone who ever opposes any project for any reason is treated as someone who opposes every project for no reason." Using the same logic I could accuse you of wanting to see R Street's parking lots remain parking lots if what is built upon them is anything other than high-rises (such as the buildings that were built on R Street lots in the past 27 years, which you seem to have trouble acknowledging.)

The 1996 quote from AKT is symbolic of developer attitude along that corridor, and was in response to Mr. Ozo's comment about Benvenuti Plaza and AKT's plan for the Crystal Ice property--which, despite the enormous eight year gap between them (I lived in Sacramento by then, but didn't pay any attention to real estate development), seems based on the same sort of "we're building offices here, residential belongs somewhere else" mindset that was portrayed in the 1988 development proposals. Except for those two floors of apartments, of course.

As to my opinion of the Marriott's upstairs condos, they're nice, and certainly better than no housing component in the building. As to the "Downtown Plaza Tower," that started out with 69 housing units, then when approved it was cut down to 50 housing units, and when it was rebranded "Downtown Commons" or "DoCo Sacramento" last week, the number was "up to" 50 units. That sort of "housing shrinkage" seems commonplace--many segments of the local building community talks a good game about building downtown housing but tend to fall short when it comes to actually building it. Kind of like the "bait & switch" game AKT pulls when building new suburbs--he promises a new private university in return for approval of a new suburb, then once he gets his approval the university drops out of the project. But when he proposes another suburb, there's that university again. It's kind of like the "Peanuts" strip where Lucy promises not to yank away the football.

But back to midrise housing. I like midrise housing, but most of the support for contemporary midrise comes from local developers--they're the ones telling me that the Sacramento market doesn't currently support the economics for high-rise construction, which is why so many of the proposals moving forward (and actually getting built) are midrise. Now, a midrise building that adds 50-100 new units seems preferable to a high-rise office building with 20 units in terms of actually adding population to the central city, especially if the high-rise never actually gets built because the economics didn't work, or if the residential component gets value-engineered out once the project is entitled and it ends up purely office.

[snfenoc]

My question is:
How much did the resistance to high rise development back in the late 80s and early 90s contribute to the 20-25 year gap in development we have seen on R Street? If it was a major contributor, then those people who put up the resistance should be tarred and feathered. I don't care how the nice the Ice Blocks will be IF it ever gets completed. I'd much rather have the high rises that were proposed; and I think it is safe to say those towers would have spurred housing growth in the downtown-midtown area. Those idiot activists may have sentenced Sacramento to 25 years of parking lots, Buzz boxes and underutilized warehouses. They, along with those who defend them, their children, their children's children, and their children's children's children should be forced to work in labor camps.

It's possible that a couple decades ago high rises were cheap enough to build and could have been successful in Sacramento's market had it not been for the silliness of know-it-all historians and anti-business activists. HOWEVER, I just don't believe it. As far as I know, these proposals were nothing more than pie in the sky ideas. They would have never gotten off the ground. Maybe I am wrong about that? On a scale of I-5 deck to The Towers on Crapitol Mall, how close were these proposals to being realized? I mean, really?

[innov8]

Wburg: I’ll admit your right, CalPERS did expand their foot print onto R Steer in 2005
adding two more blocks to their sprawling campus.

And I guess I understand what your saying, high-rises are only good if a midrise is not
an option, but midrise are preferred because they are more appropriate as defined by
you… just like some mixed use midrise buildings are preferred versus high-rise mixed
use. Right?

Reading your posts is like a flood the zone offence, spewing loads of questionable
information with an anti-high-rise slant.

BTW, the 80’s were the strongest decade for private office construction starts in
downtown Sacramento. The Wells Fargo Center and 1201 K Street began construction
in early 1990, so that straddles somewhere in between, so it’s very likely even half of
the proposals could have risen if the city had not imposed the building moratorium in
addition to Capitol View Protection. If you toss in State built towers too, it’s an
impressive construction period. The 90’s had the most State and Federal high-rise built.

89’ Renaissance Tower 28 floors
91’ US Bank Plaza 26 floors
84’ West America Bank Bldg. 18 floors
84’ 770 L Street 14 floors
83’ 925 L Street 13 floors
87’ 915 L Street 13 floors
88’ Hyatt Regency 15 floors

[wburg]

Spare the tar and feathers, snefnoc. If a handful of activists and a young architect can derail a development, the proposal probably wasn't held together with much more than baling wire and string.

As innov8 points out above, we built plenty of office high-rises during the 1980s. But somehow the associated high-rise residential construction that the developers expected to appear nearby never got built. Rows of office buildings of various sizes on J, K, L, Capitol, N, O, P and Q Street, all going dead at 5 PM when the 75,000 or so workforce head home, primarily by automobile to distant suburbs. Was adding one more street of office towers the magic "tipping point" that would have caused residential high-rises to spring up out of the ground like Jack's beanstalk? Unlikely. Despite the passionate insistence of some here, not everywhere is the right place for high-rises. You already know what drives whether or not a high-rise is the right answer, snefnoc: The market. Many here are convinced that when the government zones a piece of land for high-rises, or rather when a developer convinces the government to zone a piece of land for high-rises, the building should just automatically appear, and if it doesn't show up, it's because of deadly NIMBY radiation produced by people living nearby, which is why they think those people should be gotten rid of in order to Move The City Forward. But yes, you and I know, it's the market, not the magic of zoning, that matters most in this regard.

[snfenoc]

Spare the tar and feathers, snefnoc. If a handful of activists and a young architect can derail a development, the proposal probably wasn't held together with much more than baling wire and string.

As innov8 points out above, we built plenty of office high-rises during the 1980s. But somehow the associated high-rise residential construction that the developers expected to appear nearby never got built. Rows of office buildings of various sizes on J, K, L, Capitol, N, O, P and Q Street, all going dead at 5 PM when the 75,000 or so workforce head home, primarily by automobile to distant suburbs. Was adding one more street of office towers the magic "tipping point" that would have caused residential high-rises to spring up out of the ground like Jack's beanstalk? Unlikely. Despite the passionate insistence of some here, not everywhere is the right place for high-rises. You already know what drives whether or not a high-rise is the right answer, snefnoc: The market. Many here are convinced that when the government zones a piece of land for high-rises, or rather when a developer convinces the government to zone a piece of land for high-rises, the building should just automatically appear, and if it doesn't show up, it's because of deadly NIMBY radiation produced by people living nearby, which is why they think those people should be gotten rid of in order to Move The City Forward. But yes, you and I know, it's the market, not the magic of zoning, that matters most in this regard.

This.

I think we disagree in one sense: I do see an opportunity for more office space to spur more residential. I'm thinking there are two paths:

1) The addition of new business with new workers who want to live in the city: Of course, simply constructing a new office high rise does not mean increased demand for housing in the central city. However, a company could relocate to downtown Sac, need more office space and its workers demand more housing in the city. Unfortunately, I don't ever recall this happening Years back, when Lot A "needed" a high rise built on it, the city owned the property and offered it for $1 to any company that would relocate its headquarters to Sacramento and build a tower on the site. There were no takers.

2) The conversion of old office space to residential: It seems like most new office buildings simply cannibalize tenants from older buildings. Of course, if the city allowed for the conversion of existing office into residential, that might be a good thing. As someone who lives in DTLA, I can tell you, it has been a godsend.

Regardless, don't worry about me, wburg, I'm thoughtful enough to have invested my money in whiskey and hookers...instead of tar and feathers. I agree with you. Decades ago, those activists may have been annoying and their lack of respect for property rights may have been nearly treasonous, but they didn't kill a damn thing. They were, and have been, merely an excuse for developers who fail to deliver. The sad thing is this: the whole lot, developers and activists, hold Sacramento back. You gotta learn to crawl before you can walk. We don't need developers with pie in the sky proposals that won't succeed in the market, but we don't need activists, who take the blame when those proposals fail, either. If people can say, "Had it not been for Nutbag McGee waving his cane at the city council and complaining about evil towers menacing the Crapitol dome, we'd look like New York City right now," they aren't focusing on the real problem...ridiculous expectations.

[wburg]

Another factor to keep in mind is that 1988 also brought Sacramento another architectural edifice of great significance: Arco Arena, our first major-league professional sports facility. It was built by a developer as a trade of sorts--he'd build the city its first arena if the land around it was opened up for residential development. This former (?) floodplain was very close to downtown, thus allowing proximity to central city office jobs but the low prices and low densities of a farther-off suburb. End result: In 20 years from 1990 to 2010, the North Natomas floodplain population goes from 0 to 50,000. The central city's population goes from 32,000 to 30,000. Development pressure is like air in a balloon: without sufficient pressure, the balloon doesn't inflate. New suburban growth is like poking holes in the balloon. Even if there's pressure going in, it goes out the holes. So instead of downtown residential skyscrapers, we got North Natomas landscrapers. I'm not worried about being the target of blame for developers' failures; if they want to attribute their loss as an activist victory, they are free to do so.

The activists showing up at City Hall weren't just there to oppose the developers' vision, they were there to promote and support their own vision, one eventually adopted by the City Council. It has taken a while, long enough for the Natomas basin to fill in with houses, and, in many ways, aided by its recent building moratorium. Not sure when the last time you strolled down R Street, snefnoc, but today there's a lot more than just Fox & Goose. New housing, new retail, new office tenants, new buildings and new rehabs of old buildings, alongside some remaining industrial uses that help give R Street a unique character unlike anything else in the city, but is also uniquely Sacramento. The businesses opening up are overwhelmingly local, and range from shoemakers to a mid-sized music venue that draws acts that previously skipped Sacramento for Bay Area venues. Innov8's contention that absolutely nothing whatsoever has happened on R Street since 1988 is simple denial of reality--you can walk there today and see the difference in activity in the built environment. It's a work in progress to be certain, but it's happening as we speak. The balloon is filling, and will continue doing so, as long as some idiot doesn't go poking more holes in it.

Huge home project is coming back to life in north Natomas (http://www.bizjournals.com/sacramento/news/2015/09/24/huge-home-project-is-coming-back-to-life-in-north.html)
Earlier this month, the city got an application for refinements on the Greenbriar project, which would be southwest of the intersection of Highway 99 and Elkhorn Boulevard. The application requests revisions on larger residential lots, designated park spaces and multifamily parcels in Greenbriar. Originally an AKT project proposed in the 2000s, the project sold to Southern California-based Integral Communities four years ago.

Dagnabbit Angelo, put down that pin!

[innov8]

Innov8's contention that absolutely nothing whatsoever has happened on R Street since 1988 is simple denial of reality--you can walk there today and see the difference in activity in the built environment. It's a work in progress to be certain, but it's happening as we speak. The balloon is filling, and will continue doing so, as long as some idiot doesn't go poking more holes in it.

Boy, you sure know how spin and overlook a statement… is this how you
always operate? I did agree that CalPERS expanded there footprint but other
than that, between 10th & 1-5 on R Street, it’s the same as it’s been since
the 8 towers were proposed. Yeah, and win for the city, right? 10th St. and
beyond has changed and improved, that is something I never denied.
Get with it wburg.

Where do you get this stuff wburg? Much of what you said is purely made up about the R Street towers proposals between I-5 and 8th streets… all of which are still surface parking and two warehouses today.

[wburg]

I operate based on facts. CalPERS isn't the only change to the R Street corridor since 1988, but apparently you consider anything less than a skyscraper to equal nothing.

Just to name a few things: In 1988, the Thomson-Diggs warehouse was vacant, now it's an office building. There was a new office building and parking structure built on the two half-blocks between 4th and 6th in 1989, but the office building boom of the late 80s/early 90s turned into the office glut of the mid 90s. The SoCap Lofts between 6th and 7th provide more housing than that 34-story skyscraper, but the residents have ground floor entrances so they are part of the street life of the neighborhood. SoCap is a partial return on CalPERS' promise to build housing on R Street, although they still have to make good on the rest of that promise--the lawn (now xeriscaped) spaces on the R Street side of the building were supposed to have midrise housing built on top but they haven't made good on those yet.

There are other reuses on the R Street corridor, which stretches from Q to S Street, including some very interesting spaces--the old paint store on 6th and Q was converted to the office of architects Nacht & Lewis by Mike Heller, who is now working on the Ice Blocks. An old "buzz box" at 7th and S is now the Verge Gallery, a huge complex of artist studios, education and exhibit space that also puts on some cutting-edge events. Just a block away is Beatnik Studios, another art/event space. And I hear that Sacramento Bag Company on Q Street has also become artist/fabricator space.

Farther down S Street at 9th, Beers Books moved into another Buzz-box from its old location at L and 15th, providing another critical creative use--used bookstores, like theaters and art galleries, are the kind of creative use that generally can't afford the high rents of new construction. These unlovely old buildings are creative epicenters, feeders of the arts community, as other buildings on R Street have served since the 1980s, like the R Street Collective and the Stucco Factory. They don't do much for the portfolios of real estate moguls or earn fat commissions for commercial property brokers, but they're invaluable aspects of the creative arts economy, which needs all the spaces it can get in Sacramento in order to foster more artists, entertainment, intellectual life and culture. There are other commercial customers--Crossfit gyms, T-shirt printers, a typography company. And, of course, some of these buildings are still industrial buildings or office spaces. Some would call them "underutilized," others would just call them utilized. What's wrong with useful buildings just because they're old or not tall enough to induce vertigo?

Just west of 10th Street CFY Development, who recently completed the WAL, bought a brick furniture warehouse that was originally a 1920s tire warehouse, and in the interim an art gallery run by the family that later started Fox & Goose across the street. I have a feeling that something interesting and creative will be happening on that block in the near future. So I have hope for R Street west of 10th, even if you're still brooding over skyscrapers that didn't get built during a short-lived office boom that happened when we were teenagers.

[BillSimmons]

You operate based on a lot of things, but facts are generally not one of them.

Unless of course those "facts" happen to fit the narrative of whatever crap you happen to be slinging on that particular day.

[wburg]

Do you find any information I have presented above inaccurate, BillSimmons? If so, please let me know what I failed to accurately convey.

[ThatDarnSacramentan]

Not to distract or otherwise take away from this Airing of the Grievances here (that I partially started), but does anyone know what the hell they're doing on Capital Mall and Tower Bridge right now?

[enigma99a]

Not to distract or otherwise take away from this Airing of the Grievances here (that I partially started), but does anyone know what the hell they're doing on Capital Mall and Tower Bridge right now?

Google Farm to Fork festival Tower Bridge

[wburg]

Exactly. The much-ballyhooed Tower Bridge dinner was the finishing event, I think. Quite a crowd. For all its flaws, Capitol Mall is very handy for festivals. There was even a "Talk Like a Pirate Day" festival happening on the West Sacramento side of the waterfront at the same time. Rode over the I Street bridge on the way back, it certainly would make a nice "High Line Park" type environment once the new bridge from West Sac to the Railyards is done.

[ThatDarnSacramentan]

I knew about the festival. I meant the cranes, road dividers, ripped up grass and concrete. Are they trying to build a new overpass from Old Sac, repaving, what?

[Pistola916]

I knew about the festival. I meant the cranes, road dividers, ripped up grass and concrete. Are they trying to build a new overpass from Old Sac, repaving, what?

That's right. They are building a new entrance into Old Sac, adding bike lanes and wider sidewalks on capitol mall.

http://portal.cityofsacramento.org/RiverFrontReconnect

[wburg]

Ah, that's right--noticed crews working and part of the bridge blocked off when I rode over it Saturday morning. This is the first phase (2nd Street to Capitol), there will also be another I-5 bridge on N Street. Will be interesting to see how that moves people around, but there still has to be something going on between Embassy Suites and the Auto Museum on Front Street to give people a reason to use those bridges. The 2nd Street access will aid pedestrians and bike access instead of having to loop around the garage.

[innov8]

I get it, wburgs version of improving a stretch of road is reuse and more reuse… I think
that all he dreams about? I really had to laugh when he talked about a 34 story high-rise,
implying how anybody living in one would have to use a different entrance other than the
ground floor? Notice how he also needed to include Q & S streets to validate claim
this is such a great area? Take a stroll via Google street view everyone, it’s still
depressing and has been since the State bulldozed blocks and blocks in the 50’s and 60’s.

[wburg]

Wow, denial isn't just a river in Egypt! That's twice now that innov8 has failed to acknowledge the new buildings I mentioned (the totally 1980s office building and parking lot from 4th-6th, and the SoCap lofts from 6th-7th.)

As to Q and S Street, the boundaries of the R Street Special Planning district run from the south side of Q Street to the north side of S Street between I-5 and Business 80. From http://rstreet.info: "The R Street Corridor is a 27-block long, two block wide special planning district within Sacramento’s Central City Community." Everything I mentioned is within the R Street SPD, I didn't bother mentioning anything north of Q or south of S.

Take a stroll via actually leaving the house, note what's there and what isn't. I see what's going on down there because I actually walk around downtown a lot. What do I dream about? Reuse and infill. More housing. Homely old buildings as incubators for artistic talent and creativity, new buildings for the things we don't have enough of (like housing) or places where old buildings won't fill the bill (like hospitals.) Fewer parking lots. Lately I'm seeing those dreams coming to life in Midtown and on R Street, so I'm enjoying what I see for the most part. Sorry if the past few decades have been so disappointing for you, lamenting for stodgy office towers that never got built.

Also, it wasn't the State that bulldozed the blocks west of 7th Street, that was the city of Sacramento's redevelopment agency, working at the behest of the city of Sacramento and the Chamber of Commerce (and of course the federal highway administration.) The state was responsible for the cleared blocks between 7th-17th from Capitol Park south to the R Street special planning district, which is where CADA operates now. Brown Senior wanted to build a massive state office building campus, Reagan decided that he'd rather lease office space from his friends with suburban office parks, but kept demolishing blocks to provide plenty of parking for state offices that were still downtown.

And yes, plenty of blocks cleared by both parties are still parking lots. Which just demonstrates the short-sightedness of destroying existing neighborhoods in the hope that skyscrapers will automatically launch out of the ground...

[bradbeds]

Has anyone been down 10th and J street today? Was walking by and noticed there are some construction workers on top of the Biltmore Hotel knocking down parts of the roof.

[ThatDarnSacramentan]

Has anyone been down 10th and J street today? Was walking by and noticed there are some construction workers on top of the Biltmore Hotel knocking down parts of the roof.

Good. That entire block needs to be razed.

[bradbeds]

Good. That entire block needs to be razed.

Agreed. Has there been any news on the proposed Metropolitan there? Or anything on the proposed Cathedral Square project? Those two have been silent for quite a while.

[bradbeds]

Went and took some photos of the building, will post in a bit.

[bradbeds]

Had to resize the photos but here they are.

http://i.imgur.com/KNEMhmD.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/6mQSktP.jpg?1

[Majin]

I really wish the city would ED the entire 10th street block and sell it to a developer with a track record for $1

[bradbeds]

I really wish the city would ED the entire 10th street block and sell it to a developer with a track record for $1

Having to walk by this block every single day, I can't agree with you more. It's a horrible eyesore compared to the rest of the downtown area.

[snfenoc]

I really wish the city would ED the entire 10th street block and sell it to a developer with a track record for $1

Maybe there are more examples, but I can only think of one time the city offered a property of that size for $1...it didn't go well.

[Majin]

Maybe there are more examples, but I can only think of one time the city offered a property of that size for $1...it didn't go well.

Times are different.

[wburg]

The city already owns part of the block, unless they have already sold it to the Saca family, who seem to be suffering from building ED

[bradbeds]

The city already owns part of the block, unless they have already sold it to the Saca family, who seem to be suffering from building ED

Let's hope they have some kind of plan with that lot. If they aren't going to develop anything there they ought to just sell it to someone who will.

[Pistola916]

The city stated that they might pursue Saca to develop a midrise up to 7 stories. If that's the case, Saca should sell to the guys building the Yamanee. That site should be no shorter than 150 feet!

[wburg]

Good idea: put the 7 story building in Midtown and the 13 story building Downtown!

[wburg]

Let's hope they have some kind of plan with that lot. If they aren't going to develop anything there they ought to just sell it to someone who will.
They planned to sell (or have sold) the buildings to John Saca so he can build a 40 story building there. His ability to sustain the erecting of a building is another matter.

[enigma99a]

He was supposed to break ground this year, so maybe things are finally happening. I hope so.

[creamcityleo79]

Sad face :(...for now

http://www.bizjournals.com/sacramento/news/2015/10/02/work-begins-on-metropolitan-high-rise-site-but-its.html

[Pistola916]

He was supposed to break ground this year, so maybe things are finally happening. I hope so.

Another hole in the ground brought to you by John Saca.

[enigma99a]

Another hole in the ground brought to you by John Saca.

I don't blame Saca for this hole since it was due to the fire. But I hope he can pull it off, I am sure it would be a successful project

[ltsmotorsport]

Still would be cool if the old Plaza Building could be incorporated into the Metropolitan, but that would seem very unlikely. Either way, here's hoping this project gets going and that stretch of J Street can have some life breathed back into it.

[Pistola916]

Is there someone with inside information that is constantly updating the list? Some of these proposals have gone up in height, and according to *this person*, The Metropolitan is under construction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_buildings_in_Sacramento

[enigma99a]

Is there someone with inside information that is constantly updating the list? Some of these proposals have gone up in height.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_buildings_in_Sacramento


That's what I've been saying. And I'm sure the person is a lurker here, so come out of hiding :D

[UnclearColt]

So over 95% of the edits to that page since July 2014 have been made by the same Wikipedia user. That user also has made a few edits to light rail and Sac RT wiki articles.

[LandofFrost]

The Aura!!

Holy crap that was the best designed condo complex that never happened...

http://www.bizjournals.com/sacramento/news/2015/10/21/downtown-condo-tower-proposal-from-2005shows-new.html


They did manage to build the commercial building that was planned for the other half of that site, maybe this isn't complete pie in the sky. I wonder if they would have to re-hire Libeskind.

[Majin]

The Aura!!

Holy crap that was the best designed condo complex that never happened...

http://www.bizjournals.com/sacramento/news/2015/10/21/downtown-condo-tower-proposal-from-2005shows-new.html


They did manage to build the commercial building that was planned for the other half of that site, maybe this isn't complete pie in the sky. I wonder if they would have to re-hire Libeskind.

I seriously doubt it.

[wburg]

Sounds like they're just renewing the permits rather than let them expire and have to re-entitle the entire project.

[snfenoc]

Sounds like they're just renewing the permits rather than let them expire and have to re-entitle the entire project.

That's exactly what they are doing. Nothing to see here...for now. If they propose something, I hope it includes housing and is on a smaller scale (I don't think tall towers aren't in the cards). Crapitol Mall needs some life after 5 PM.

[enigma99a]

Nice to see tower cranes up in the air on the DOCO project.

[Pistola916]

Nice to see tower cranes up in the air on the DOCO project.

How tall is the Kimpton tower? The Wiki page said 320 feet. I think it's below 300.

[enigma99a]

How tall is the Kimpton tower? The Wiki page said 320 feet. I think it's below 300.

No clue, someone will have to chime in. But only 16-17 floors no way equals above 300ft.

[innov8]

Plaza Tower
200’ (Top of 16th floor)
221’ (Top of parapet)
233’ (Top of mechanical penthouse)

The plans say 233' but the elevations say 250'

[UnclearColt]

No clue, someone will have to chime in. But only 16-17 floors no way equals above 300ft.

I was actually surprised when I was comparing the hotel's proposed height with other highrises downtown. The Courthouse Building is listed as 18 stories/350 ft. tall, so it seems the Kimpton tower might be pretty close to that size.

[Pistola916]

I was actually surprised when I was comparing the hotel's proposed height with other highrises downtown. The Courthouse Building is listed as 18 stories/350 ft. tall, so it seems the Kimpton tower might be pretty close to that size.

Floors in office high-rises tend to have higher ceilings, thus making it a taller building. Floor ceilings in residential/hotel high-rises are shorter. It's possible for a residential/hotel tower to be 40 stories and be 300 feet.

I'm guessing the Plaza tower will be around the same height as the Citizen or Elks building.

[UnclearColt]

Floors in office high-rises tend to have higher ceilings, thus making it a taller building. Floor ceilings in residential/hotel high-rises are shorter. It's possible for a residential/hotel tower to be 40 stories and be 300 feet.

I'm guessing the Plaza tower will be around the same height as the Citizen or Elks building.

Yeah, I'm just kind of curious where that 339' figure in the Wiki article comes from. I've never seen a foot-height given for the hotel tower in any articles or documents, only a floor count.

[Majin]

Floors in office high-rises tend to have higher ceilings, thus making it a taller building. Floor ceilings in residential/hotel high-rises are shorter. It's possible for a residential/hotel tower to be 40 stories and be 300 feet.

I'm guessing the Plaza tower will be around the same height as the Citizen or Elks building.

Thats pretty disappointing but I hope this is just the start of more highrise (housing or hotels) downtown. I'm neutral on more office buildings (such as the Vanir Tower) but that at least will help fell out the lack of destiny of tall buildings downtown.

[CastleScott]

^ Great updates and I was wondering what those tower cranes were for, I saw them go up from a point near where I live in north Natomas..:)

Scott

[BillSimmons]

The Ice Blocks building is on FIRE

[ozone]

The Ice Blocks building is on FIRE

It's still smokey at 8:18 AM. Looks like a sizable chunk of the facade was taken out. Have no idea what the interior looks like. Probably will have to be razed now.

[wburg]

So it can sit as a vacant lot for a few more decades? The brick portion of Building 3 is gone, but the poured concrete buildings are still intact--Globe Mills burned out completely but was still reused, so while there will be a lot of "back to the drawing board" it isn't necessarily a total loss. Still a major setback and a disappointment. Ironically, the developer was going to go back to the Planning Director this coming Thursday to approve removal of the upper part of the Building 3 wall to allow for bigger windows on the second floor. Now the entire wall is gone.

[ozone]

Some people would argue with a fence post.

[wburg]

Sounds like you're happy about the fire, Ozone. It might have to be entirely razed, or it might not. Globe Mills burned out completely, but most of the exterior structure of the building was still sound and reused.

[BillSimmons]

Sounds like you're happy about the fire, Ozone. It might have to be entirely razed, or it might not. Globe Mills burned out completely, but most of the exterior structure of the building was still sound and reused.

The fact that you're a real person defies all logic.

[wburg]

Guess I'm the only optimist in the room, as usual. Nobody's saying the project won't have to change dramatically, a large portion of the building is gone. Maybe it will look more like the earlier Friedman/Loftworks proposal from around a decade ago, which actually proposed removing the central brick buildings and utilizing the outer concrete ones. Maybe something else. And maybe it will be a total loss. We'll see--but the project developers are trying to remain optimistic: http://www.bizjournals.com/sacramento/news/2015/11/07/can-the-ice-blocks-project-be-saved-after.html?ana=twt

[BillSimmons]

I'm obviously talking about you claiming that ozone is happy about the fire when literally nothing he said would indicate to any normal person that he was, in fact, happy about the fire.

[creamcityleo79]

The fact that you're a real person defies all logic.

The fact that you (and others) continue to berate him for his opinion says a lot more about you than it does about him or his opinions (which he is entitled to!). I, for one, love having Wburg here. He's probably (by far) the most knowledgeable person on this forum when it comes to Sacramento history...AND he probably is more involved in making this city better than anyone else, too! Enough with the stupid attacks on him just for stating his opinion! It doesn't hurt you! Calm down!

[BillSimmons]

The fact that you (and others) continue to berate him for his opinion says a lot more about you than it does about him or his opinions (which he is entitled to!). I, for one, love having Wburg here. He's probably (by far) the most knowledgeable person on this forum when it comes to Sacramento history...AND he probably is more involved in making this city better than anyone else, too! Enough with the stupid attacks on him just for stating his opinion! It doesn't hurt you! Calm down!

Read the posts again. Ozone made a very innocuous post speculating about the future of the ice blocks project and burg accused him of being happy that it burned down...

[ozone]

For the record I'm not happy about the fire. And I'm stumped why anyone would say that. But whatever. Actually I'm bummed. First it delays a project that's been too long delayed. And second, I know two people with nearby projects in the works that were really counting on this thing creating great synergy in that area. I hope they can move fast coming up with a new plan.

[ozone]

http://s15.postimg.org/ndy82ldkb/25thand_J.jpg

A developer has submitted a proposal to the planning commission for a 13 or 14-story (depending on the source) mixed-use building on the southeast corner of J and 25 th streets in Midtown. The site is now occupied by two-story retail and office buildings (where the Birkenstocks store is.) The building’s height is already drawing criticism from self-appointed arbitrators of taste and good city planning, the head of the neighborhood association, who says it’s too tall and belongs downtown not in Midtown.

The source of both the photo and the info is either/or the Sac Bee or Sac Business Journal.

[ozone]

http://s10.postimg.org/6o47ij3t5/k_street_mixed_use_750xx3435_1932_403_0.jpg

Information and photo from Sacramento Business Journal/Mark Anderson

A Sacramento developer is proposing a new residential mixed-use building at 23rd and K streets in Midtown. LBT Investments LLC wants to build a three-story building at the corner of 23rd and K streets on the current site of a long-vacant church and a small historic home, according to documents submitted to the city. The 1910 church would be demolished (update: it’s already been demolished). A 900-square-foot 1886 residence next door, would be moved to a vacant lot at 1808 U St.

[ozone]

This may have already been posted but I'll do again in case anyone missed it.

http://s1.postimg.org/5dnb419sv/banner.jpg

From their website:

PROJECT OVERVIEW
This exciting, new, urban mixed-use project is located on the NE corner of 19th and Q streets in Midtown Sacramento. It will feature a four story residential building with 68 units, nearly 2,000 square feet of ground-floor retail space and 38 on-site parking spaces. The design concept for the project was based on existing architectural themes in the area (quality materials with a traditional design). The building will be wood frame construction, with wood, brick, stucco and metal finishes. Large, dual pane windows (with interior shades) will be prominent features of the design and will nicely showcase the tall ceilings and maximizing the natural light.

The Q19 site has a good Transit Score, and incredible “90” Walk and “100” Bike scores (www.walkscore.com). This project is the first of three new developments in the area (and nearly 500 new units) from SKK Developments.

[ozone]

Another 16th Street infill. This time in the doggier north.

http://s18.postimg.org/cycmh15q1/Lavender_Rendering.jpg

From the Mutual Housing website: The Central Valley’s first LGBT-welcoming affordable senior housing community: Lavender Courtyard will be built on a vacant parcel at the corner of 16th and F Streets. It will it be home to 53 households whose occupants are age 62 and older.

What is LGBT-welcoming housing and why is it necessary? Studies show that lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender seniors experience discrimination in health and social service delivery and in housing. LGBT seniors frequently report being victimized by staff and residents of senior facilities. Upon moving into traditional senior communities, many LGBT elders feel compelled to go back into the closet after years or decades of being able to live out and proud.

While the project will be open to anyone, it will geared towards the unique needs of LGBT community. They are hoping to have the project completed by the end of 2017.

[ozone]

And just a reminder of some other recently built or uc projects along 16th Steet.

Legado de Ravel Apartments
http://s9.postimg.org/i4jv1k8fj/legado_de_ravel_apartment_homes_sacramento_ca_95.jpg
source: Homes.com

16 Powerhouse at 16th and P Streets
http://s23.postimg.org/rqgvd8yzf/Powerhouse_16_0044.jpg
source: livinginurbansac.blogspot.com

EVIVA Midtown (under-construction)
http://s1.postimg.org/5spuoxxwf/slide01.jpg
source: their website

[creamcityleo79]

Thanks for posting these, ozone. I am always seeing these alerts and news stories from the Biz Journal while I'm at work and can't really post and wonder why we're not seeing them here. So, I appreciate you posting them.

As for the project on J (where the Birkenstocks is now), is that the rendering you posted above? That building appears to be 9 or 10 stories.

[ozone]

Thanks for posting these, ozone. I am always seeing these alerts and news stories from the Biz Journal while I'm at work and can't really post and wonder why we're not seeing them here. So, I appreciate you posting them.

As for the project on J (where the Birkenstocks is now), is that the rendering you posted above? That building appears to be 9 or 10 stories.

Thanks creamcityleo. Yeah it's a bit confusing and the rendering appears to be very preliminary. Possibly made to look smaller on purpose. I think they are counting one floor of parking that will be below grade. Then they'll have ground floor retail and two more floors of parking above that topped by 10 floors of condominiums. The project, called Yamanee.

[Pistola916]

The Eviva looks much sharper than previous renderings. Glad CADA went back to the drawing board.

Unfortunately, the East End State office complex was poorly designed and planned. The state could have built several midrises or consolidated into one tower elsewhere. That wouldve opened it up for more midrise residential on that spot.

[ozone]

The Eviva looks much sharper than previous renderings. Glad CADA went back to the drawing board.

Unfortunately, the West End State office complex was poorly designed and planned. The state could have built several midrises or consolidated into one tower elsewhere. That wouldve opened it up for more midrise residential on that spot.

I agree. And to add insult to injury they placed some of the worst 'art works' in the city at the East End. They could improve it by first greeting rid of that crap and creating a more traditional public space that people can and will want to hang out in.

[wburg]

I made what I thought was a hopeful comment about being able to salvage part of the building vs. just assuming it would be a total loss. Ozone replied with that bit about arguing with a fencepost, so I figured he was taking the opposite stance about trying to salvage part of the building. The latest news about Ice Blocks (via Twitter at 6 PM tonight) is that the concrete portions of the building may be salvageable (Buildings 1 and 4), but the brick portion (the oldest part in the middle) is a total loss and most if not all of the interior wood is gone.

There are plenty of problems with the East End office complex, but #1 is the total lack of interest by the state in pursuing any sort of programming in a space that was clearly designed for public programming--concerts, street fairs, farmer's markets, any sort of activity. On weekends Capitol Avenue gets so little traffic that it would be trivially easy to block off the street and have festival events take place on the two-block streetscape, smaller in scale than Capitol Mall but larger than what would be possible even blocking off a downtown street. But DGS has no interest in utilizing the buildings outside of office hours, aside from their agreement with the city to use its garage as public parking. Even some tables with umbrellas would provide some respite and a place to sit.

Lots of interesting stuff underway, recently constructed, or on the drawing board. Can't say I like all of it, but I like a lot of it.

[ozone]

http://s14.postimg.org/dp5xyg1gh/1500_s_street_750xx931_526_0_49.png

From Sacramento Business Journal
Ben van der Meer

Another mixed-use residential building is being proposed for midtown Sacramento, this one at the intersection of 15th and S streets. An application received by the city describes it only as “1500 S Street Mixed Use,” with 76 residential units above 13,000 square feet of commercial space. Steve Whitesides of Roseville is the applicant.


RENDERING COURTESY RED KNOLL DEVELOPMENT

[ozone]

And in case anyone missed the Whole Foods project.

http://s29.postimg.org/m1crkatpj/wholefoodsmidtownrendering_750xx3793_2138_134_0.jpg
From the DSP website

Pappas Investments will construct a mixed-use structure that will house a Whole Foods and 140 housing units above the store. The new development will be approximately 40,000 square feet and will have a level of below ground parking.

[ozone]

Senior Artist Community @ Mansion Flats
http://s14.postimg.org/9qhx73rkx/o4ebc_So_4.jpg

Pacifica Companies is looking to redevelop the Clarion Hotel (across the street from the re-occupied Governor's Mansion.) This mixed-use project would raze the current hotel at 700 16th St and replace it with a four-story, 156,481 square foot senior artist community. There would be 160 housing units plus ground-level commercial spaces on the corners of the building. The finished project will include an art center that can be leased for public use. Rendering and info from the DSP website.

[ozone]

The proposed Vanir Tower at 601 J Street looks to have become 'inactive'. As I said, while I want new high-rises downtown, I was never very really excited about the Vanir Tower's design. It seemed to be already dated and inappropriate for out climate. Hopefully, when the market for office space improves enough he'll come back with a different design.

[Pistola916]

The proposed Vanir Tower at 601 J Street looks to have become 'inactive'. As I said, while I want new high-rises downtown, I was never very really excited about the Vanir Tower's design. It seemed to be already dated and inappropriate for out climate. Hopefully, when the market for office space improves enough he'll come back with a different design.

While Vanir's design appears to be outdated, if built, it would easily be the best looking high-rise in the skyline. That says a lot about the city's architecture - or lack thereof.

[ozone]

*She"ll. Dorene Dominguez is the CEO of Vanir.

While Vanir's design appears to be outdated, if built, it would easily be the best looking high-rise in the skyline. That says a lot about the city's architecture - or lack thereof.

My bad. I was thinking of Alexander Leon. Regarding the design. I guess I'm just over the geometric-origami-modern trend. I'm not convinced it would have been the best looking. Of course, if given a choice of that tower design or no tower at all, I'd prefer a tower. But I agree that we need to up our game. Besides the next tower needs to a mixed-use residential/office taller that 377 feet.

[Web]

arent they still working on removing the insides? or is that the kaiser building oooops

[SacTownAndy]

More news on the Vanir Tower:


Why a proposed downtown office tower could get taller

Ben van der Meer
Staff Writer
Sacramento Business Journal
Nov 16, 2015, 7:14am PST


Developers of the proposed downtown office building called Vanir Tower said they are seeing more interest from potential tenants than they had expected.

While Vanir Group of Cos. senior vice president and chief financial officer Alexander Leon has said the project remains on track, city planners said the developer has indicated it plans revisions to the project — suggesting the size of the building may increase.

Proposed last year at 26 stories and 377 feet tall, Vanir Tower would be the first office tower in downtown Sacramento since 2009. Vanir representatives said at the time they expect entitlements to take at least two years...

...Revisions for Vanir Tower, proposed on the site of vacant office buildings at 601 J St., could involve adding square footage, which would seem to translate into more stories. If so, Vanir Tower could be pushing toward a status as one of the tallest buildings in the region, if not the tallest....

Entire story: http://www.bizjournals.com/sacramento/news/2015/11/16/why-a-proposed-downtown-office-tower-could-get.html

[creamcityleo79]

Thankfully, we were wrong about Vanir Tower....


Why a proposed downtown office tower could get taller



Developers of the proposed downtown office building called Vanir (http://www.bizjournals.com/profiles/company/us/ca/sacramento/vanir_development_co/3371983) Tower said they are seeing more interest from potential tenants than they had expected.
While Vanir Group of Cos. senior vice president and chief financial officer Alexander Leon (http://www.bizjournals.com/sacramento/search/results?q=Alexander Leon) has said the project remains on track, city planners said the developer has indicated it plans revisions to the project — suggesting the size of the building may increase. http://www.bizjournals.com/sacramento/news/2015/11/16/why-a-proposed-downtown-office-tower-could-get.html

[snfenoc]

Thankfully, we were wrong about Vanir Tower....


Why a proposed downtown office tower could get taller


http://www.bizjournals.com/sacramento/news/2015/11/16/why-a-proposed-downtown-office-tower-could-get.html

I remain VERY cautiously optimistic about this tower because it would be home to the actual developer/builder and its ties to the arena.

I think Sacramento needs to get on the existing office to residential conversion bandwagon...and quick.


Below is a link to a nice article on live music venues (or lack thereof) on K Street. Basically, it's too damn expensive. The other take I get from the article is Sacramentans simply don't support that stuff enough. I hear a lot of bellyaching from certain area residents about what Sacramento lacks, but they don't seem to support what exists. Go out and support your city!

Live-music clubs a no-go at DoCo and on K Street
BY CHRIS MACIAS
Music flows from the Microsoft Theater adjacent to Staples Center in Los Angeles. Guitars wail in the Basement in Columbus, Ohio, part of Nationwide Arena’s entertainment district. But in Sacramento’s burgeoning Downtown Commons – and on K Street near Golden 1 Center – it’s the sound of silence in terms of live-music clubs.


Read more here:
http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article45006939.html

[ozone]

More news on the Vanir Tower:


Why a proposed downtown office tower could get taller

Ben van der Meer
Staff Writer
Sacramento Business Journal
Nov 16, 2015, 7:14am PST


Developers of the proposed downtown office building called Vanir Tower said they are seeing more interest from potential tenants than they had expected.

While Vanir Group of Cos. senior vice president and chief financial officer Alexander Leon has said the project remains on track, city planners said the developer has indicated it plans revisions to the project — suggesting the size of the building may increase.

Proposed last year at 26 stories and 377 feet tall, Vanir Tower would be the first office tower in downtown Sacramento since 2009. Vanir representatives said at the time they expect entitlements to take at least two years...

...Revisions for Vanir Tower, proposed on the site of vacant office buildings at 601 J St., could involve adding square footage, which would seem to translate into more stories. If so, Vanir Tower could be pushing toward a status as one of the tallest buildings in the region, if not the tallest....

Entire story: http://www.bizjournals.com/sacramento/news/2015/11/16/why-a-proposed-downtown-office-tower-could-get.html

Well hope springs eternal. I said awhile back that they should tell our local negative, anti-urban, ball-less market analyzers to go and f*k themselves and build it higher. There are just as many examples (if not more) of speculative building defying conventional 'wisdom' turning out to positive and profitable, than the other way around. I just hope if they do intend to move forward that they choose another architect.

[ozone]

I remain VERY cautiously optimistic about this tower because it would be home to the actual developer/builder and its ties to the arena.

I think Sacramento needs to get on the existing office to residential conversion bandwagon...and quick.


Below is a link to a nice article on live music venues (or lack thereof) on K Street. Basically, it's too damn expensive. The other take I get from the article is Sacramentans simply don't support that stuff enough. I hear a lot of bellyaching from certain area residents about what Sacramento lacks, but they don't seem to support what exists. Go out and support your city!

Live-music clubs a no-go at DoCo and on K Street
BY CHRIS MACIAS



Read more here:
http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article45006939.html

I take most articles (particularly from the Bee and SBJ) stating that Sacramentans do not support live entertainment with a huge grain of salt. These people have no clue what's really going on after they rush back to their home in the burbs.

[LandofFrost]

I take most articles (particularly from the Bee and SBJ) stating that Sacramentans do not support live entertainment with a huge grain of salt. These people have no clue what's really going on after they rush back to their home in the burbs.

I saw three live bands in Sacramento this weekend. All clubs/restaurants that they were at were packed and all downtown. People are hungry for more... it's obvious to those that actually attend.

[Web]

I saw three live bands in Sacramento this weekend. All clubs/restaurants that they were at were packed and all downtown. People are hungry for more... it's obvious to those that actually attend.

Did anyone read the article and who were speaking?...its not about music not working in downtown Sac it was about K street being too expensive.
I think the people that run Ace of Spades and also Paraguarys are not random people who do not have a clue.

[enigma99a]

Well hope springs eternal. I said awhile back that they should tell our local negative, anti-urban, ball-less market analyzers to go and f*k themselves and build it higher. There are just as many examples (if not more) of speculative building defying conventional 'wisdom' turning out to positive and profitable, than the other way around. I just hope if they do intend to move forward that they choose another architect.

I actually like the design but it is stubby. If it were taller I think it would look quite nice

[wburg]

Creative uses (like live music venues) tend to need a lot of space and can't afford high rents per square foot, which is why they are better suited to old buildings (not necessarily "historic buildings" but just run-of-the-mill old buildings) where rent is cheaper. There were music venues and art galleries in old buildings in the 1980s, like Club Can't Tell and IDEA Gallery, but they got pushed out in the office building boom toward the end of that decade. $3.50 per square foot doesn't work for a black-box theater or a live music venue--those are premium prices that a bank or a tech company can afford to pay, which appeals to commercial leasing agents (for whom "vibrant" means "fully leased") but these safe, high-rent businesses don't add much to street life. Neither does the promise of a soon-to-be-completed urban amenity mean much to a new downtown restaurant or small music venue, who are paying rent as though the amenity was already built and attracting customers even though those customers have not arrived.

It's not that people don't want to open businesses, live music venues, etcetera, on K Street--it's that they cannot afford the rents being charged. That's part of why we have blighted buildings like the Renaissance Tower (built during that 1980s office boom), whose ground floor retail spaces are now entirely vacant. Many of the landlords have unrealistic ideas about how much rent they should get for their buildings, especially since the arena plan went through, and would rather let their buildings sit vacant than lower the rent.

I don't think it is a matter of Sacramentans not supporting live music venues, although many who live out in the slurbs often just don't know that our live music venues exist and never bother looking because all they hear about is how horrible and boring downtown Sacramento is. They probably hear more about venues that aren't going to open for another year or two, like the ancillary development around the arena, than actual venues that are open now, and you can't visit restaurants that don't exist yet.

The Knitting Factory 2000-seat venue on the 700 block was a complete sham, like most of the plan that accompanied it. They claimed they were going to fit that 2000 seat hall into two buildings with a total footprint of less than 8000 square feet--whereas the closest existing venue to that capacity, Sacramento Community Center theater (2400 capacity), is closer to 50,000 square feet.

[ozone]

Did anyone read the article and who were speaking?...its not about music not working in downtown Sac it was about K street being too expensive.
I think the people that run Ace of Spades and also Paraguarys are not random people who do not have a clue.

Yes I read the article and I know who was speaking. I responding to the OP. But I also just didn't buy the arguments being made by Bair. The problem isn't just that rents are too high. It's also that people are still reluctant to go down to K Street at night. That will change (hopefully) when the arena opens. But is K Street even the best place for that sort of the thing?

[wburg]

Really? The 1000 block of K Street still gets a few thousand people showing up every weekend to visit K Bar, Social, District 30, Dive Bar and other nightclubs, restaurants like Mayahuel, and Coin-Op always seems to be really busy after 6 PM whenever I visit. If K Street isn't the best place for live music venues, what is the best place? And what, then, is the best use for the neighborhood around the arena?

[Web]

Really? The 1000 block of K Street still gets a few thousand people showing up every weekend to visit K Bar, Social, District 30, Dive Bar and other nightclubs, restaurants like Mayahuel, and Coin-Op always seems to be really busy after 6 PM whenever I visit. If K Street isn't the best place for live music venues, what is the best place? And what, then, is the best use for the neighborhood around the arena?

I don't think the concern was for fri sat nights but for the remaining 5 slower nights

[ozone]

The City and Downtown Partnership is trying to rebrand the old K St. Mall area into an 'entertainment district' (or maybe resurrect it). That's fine I guess but they need to concern themselves with cleaning the place up. IMO a place like the AoS is better suited for R Street where there's larger spaces and room for crowds. While I like the idea of more music venues I'd rather see more restaurants and shops and residents along K Street since that would enliven the area both day and night.

Also I don't think empty storefront are the product solely of too high of rents. Many of the properties owners (often a partnership) can sit on their investment for a long time without much cost to them, until they can sell/or lease it at the highest possible price. Having tenants isn't always beneficial because they don't want to accept lower quality/high risk tenants at a reduced rate, for a shorter term. It's kind of Catch 22. Without the spaces filled the place doesn't improve. But properties owners are reluctant to lease out the spaces until it does improve. Hopefully the arena will be the tipping point.

[Pistola916]

The i15 project got scrapped by the developer due to small lot. Still possible it could be revived elsewhere in the grid


Developer scuttles plans for midtown apartments
http://www.sacbee.com/news/business/biz-columns-blogs/bob-shallit/article45416196.html

[wburg]

I guess I don't see how there isn't room for crowds and larger spaces in the heart of downtown Sacramento than on the edge of a low-rise residential neighborhood. If anything, I'd expect larger capacities and live music venues in a designated "entertainment district." I note that K Street as it exists isn't without live entertainment--I have seen live bands perform at Dive Bar and District 30, but they, like a lot of Midtown locales, are small venues that don't fill that mid-range venue size between dives and arenas where we have a gap.

The property owner mentality you mention is another obstacle to live music venues, as they are seen as high-risk/lower quality by many of the stodgier investment-banker types, who would rather have a nice quiet office tenant who can pay $3.50/square foot, or maybe a chain restaurant with enough money behind it to operate at a loss until they drive nearby locals out of business. The arena might be a tipping point or it might have made things worse--if these landlords assume their property is so much more valuable because of proximity to the arena, they raise rents even higher and thus have even more trouble finding tenants. Those office tenants and deep-pockets chain businesses aren't idiots, they didn't make their money by paying the highest rent in a risky location, so they'd no doubt avoid that kind of property owner like the plague.

And, of course, the same mentality keeps residents off K Street too--anytime housing is mentioned the old-school property owners and metro chamber types make noises about how hard it is to do downtown residential, how expensive it is and how much trouble, because they're not really convinced that anyone wants to live downtown and nobody they know in El Dorado Hills or Rancho Murieta or wherever wants to move downtown either.

[wburg]

The i15 project by D&S Development is scrapped due to small lot. Still possible it could be revived elsewhere in the grid

Developer scuttles plans for midtown apartments
http://www.sacbee.com/news/business/biz-columns-blogs/bob-shallit/article45416196.html

Sad news--I know they tried really hard to make that work, and the basic idea was sound.