View Full Version : Sacramento Proposal/Approval/Construction Thread - III
SacTownAndy
Jun 13, 2007, 7:08 PM
I wasn't sure where to post this, but thought it was worth posting.
Folsom's push south takes shape
By Walter Yost - Bee Staff Writer
Published 12:00 am PDT Wednesday, June 13, 2007
Story appeared in MAIN NEWS section, Page A1
The city of Folsom on Tuesday took a major step toward its long-sought goal of moving south of Highway 50, unveiling a detailed plan that would add up to 30,000 residents.
The proposed plan to develop 3,500 acres envisions nearly 12,000 new residential units and more than 7,500 new jobs. Also included is a 100-acre site designated for a potential regional mall. Folsom had about 69,000 residents in 2006, according to state Department of Finance figures.
City officials said their plans, subject to extensive public review and environmental scrutiny, will retain more than 30 percent of the area, including prairie and oak woodlands, as undeveloped open space.
The remainder will be divided among offices, parks, schools and shops. The acreage is owned by seven landowners, including partnerships that include Angelo K. Tsakopoulos, the largest land developer in Sacramento.
The annexation is expected to take more than two years and city leaders don't anticipate being able to start developing the area until January 2010 at the earliest.
"This is the first step in what will be a very comprehensive and involved public process to follow," said City Manager Kerry Miller.
A potential obstacle is finding a new water supply to serve the area -- a condition for annexation required by a 2004 city ballot measure and earlier agreements with the county and the Sacramento Local Agency Formation Commission, or LAFCO.
Miller said Tuesday the prospects for securing water are "very good," although he didn't elaborate on where the water would come from.
Mike McKeever, executive director of the Sacramento Area Council of Governments, said that based on his staff's preliminary review of the land-use plan, "our first impressions are all positive."
He said the plan does a good job of protecting natural resources, providing a mixture of housing and jobs and encouraging non-auto trips with its emphasis on walking and biking trails and public transit.
However, Folsom resident Bob Fish, a longtime opponent of development south of Highway 50, maintains that most Folsom residents actually oppose development in the area but the city hasn't given them the opportunity to make a "yes" or "no" decision.
Fish, a leader of Folsom Citizens for Responsible Growth, said he and his supporters plan to put a measure on the ballot giving voters that opportunity.
Fish also said he doubts that the city will be able to secure a new water supply for the area, given current drought conditions.
Folsom officials have wanted to annex the land south of Highway 50 since the early 1990s. In June 2001, LAFCO defined the city's sphere of influence as the land bounded by Highway 50 to the north, Prairie City Road to the west, White Rock Road to the south, and the El Dorado County line to the east. The land is part of unincorporated Sacramento County
Three years later, nearly 70 percent of Folsom voters approved Measure W, which imposed various requirements on the city if it chose to expand south of Highway 50.
The requirements included: 30 percent of the area had to be kept in open space; the city had to find a water source that didn't tap its existing supplies; and existing Folsom residents wouldn't have to pay for new schools.
Earlier this year, voters in the Folsom Cordova Unified School District approved a $750 million bond to build new schools in the Folsom and Rancho Cordova areas south of Highway 50, with new residents footing the bill.
During the Measure W campaign, opponents of the measure, including Fish, feared that the city would claim that a "yes" was a mandate to build south of Highway 50.
Miller said Tuesday he believes the land-use plan for the area "reflects the meticulous community vision of this property."
City Councilman Steve Miklos, who sits on the Sacramento Area Council of Governments board of directors, said the area is "the No. 1 piece of property" in the Sacramento region best able to accommodate growth.
With SACOG anticipating between 800,000 and 1 million people moving into the Sacramento region over the next 30 years, the agency has identified the area immediately south of Highway 50 from Folsom as a logical place for urban expansion.
If the planned development occurs, it could put Folsom in competition with its fast-growing neighbor to the west -- Rancho Cordova -- for new upscale retail businesses.
Approximately 340 acres of the area is designated for commercial/retail under the plan. John Hodgson, a development consultant who represents the area's landowners, said there also is an option to build a regional mall along the Highway 50 corridor.
While Rancho Cordova Vice Mayor Linda Budge said she's a longtime supporter of the annexation, she said "we'd hate to lose retailers to Folsom."
Budge said that as Folsom and Rancho Cordova grow physically closer, it's also important that planners from both cities work together in places where there are shared boundaries, such as Prairie City Road.
Folsom has scheduled an informational open house on the land use plan from 5 to 7:30 p.m. June 28 at the Folsom Community Center, 52 Natoma Street
http://media.sacbee.com/smedia/2007/06/12/20/972-folsom.standalone.prod_affiliate.4.jpg
ltsmotorsport
Jun 13, 2007, 7:53 PM
Well, you knew it was gonna come sooner or later, but at least there is a lot of dedicated open space, if the plan does ever come to fruition. I just hope that a White Rock expansion would be part of this annexation and build out.
creamcityleo79
Jun 14, 2007, 3:26 AM
Well, you knew it was gonna come sooner or later, but at least there is a lot of dedicated open space, if the plan does ever come to fruition. I just hope that a White Rock expansion would be part of this annexation and build out.
I was bored one day recently and came up with a list of projects that I felt were important. I found the projects on the 2006 MTP Project List (http://sacog.org/mtp/pdf/2006%20MTP%20Project%20List.pdf)(Metropolitan Transportation Plan, I think?) on SACOG's website. They are all in some stage of proposal or construction. An expansion of White Rock was included. Here's the list I compiled:
Widening Folsom Blvd from Mather Field Rd to Coloma Rd from 4 to 6 lanes.
Beautification project on Folsom from Rod Beaudry to Sunrise.
Folsom and La Loma to be “city center” of Rancho Cordova across from existing light rail station replacing current street frontage with a café sidewalk and parallel street parking and constructing a 2-level garage. (where the abandoned Wienerschnitzel is)
Streetscaping and beautification of US-50 interchange from Folsom and Mather Field to Mather Field and Mather Commerce Center.
Bridging I-5 between Capitol Mall and O Street over I-5 connecting the riverfront and the city by 2015.
Folsom Blvd to become 4 lanes from Hornet Dr to 65th St .
Beautification Project on Watt Ave from Cap City Fwy to Jackson Hwy. Completed by later this year.
Zinfandel to be extended to Douglas Blvd.
Extend LRT to Antelope Rd by 2025
Swanston Light Rail Station: perform pre-development
planning to identify circulation, drainage and utility infrastructure
improvements necessary to support transit-oriented development in the area.
(only because I work at USAA which is directly on the other side of the railroad tracks and you have to walk a full mile on Arden over the tracks to get from my work to the light rail station!)
DNA completed by approx 2015 at a cost of $624,000,000
Meadowview to Laguna West LRT extension
South Sac Extension Phase II from Meadowview Rd to CRC by 2010
South Sac Extension Phase III from CRC to Elk Grove by 2019
Sunrise Blvd BRT from Douglas Blvd and Placer County Line by 2013
Watt Ave BRT between Folsom Blvd and McClellan Air Park by 2010
Study of Rancho Cordova --> Placer County multi-modal connector
Extend LRT from DT to West Sac by 2025.
BrianSac
Jun 14, 2007, 7:27 AM
I was bored one day recently and came up with a list of projects that I felt were important. I found the projects on the 2006 MTP Project List (http://sacog.org/mtp/pdf/2006%20MTP%20Project%20List.pdf)(Metropolitan Transportation Plan, I think?) on SACOG's website. They are all in some stage of proposal or construction. An expansion of White Rock was included. Here's the list I compiled:
Widening Folsom Blvd from Mather Field Rd to Coloma Rd from 4 to 6 lanes.
Beautification project on Folsom from Rod Beaudry to Sunrise.
Folsom and La Loma to be “city center” of Rancho Cordova across from existing light rail station replacing current street frontage with a café sidewalk and parallel street parking and constructing a 2-level garage. (where the abandoned Wienerschnitzel is)
Streetscaping and beautification of US-50 interchange from Folsom and Mather Field to Mather Field and Mather Commerce Center.
Bridging I-5 between Capitol Mall and O Street over I-5 connecting the riverfront and the city by 2015.
Folsom Blvd to become 4 lanes from Hornet Dr to 65th St .
Beautification Project on Watt Ave from Cap City Fwy to Jackson Hwy. Completed by later this year.
Zinfandel to be extended to Douglas Blvd.
Extend LRT to Antelope Rd by 2025
Swanston Light Rail Station: perform pre-development
planning to identify circulation, drainage and utility infrastructure
improvements necessary to support transit-oriented development in the area.
(only because I work at USAA which is directly on the other side of the railroad tracks and you have to walk a full mile on Arden over the tracks to get from my work to the light rail station!)
DNA completed by approx 2015 at a cost of $624,000,000
Meadowview to Laguna West LRT extension
South Sac Extension Phase II from Meadowview Rd to CRC by 2010
South Sac Extension Phase III from CRC to Elk Grove by 2019
Sunrise Blvd BRT from Douglas Blvd and Placer County Line by 2013
Watt Ave BRT between Folsom Blvd and McClellan Air Park by 2010
Study of Rancho Cordova --> Placer County multi-modal connector
Extend LRT from DT to West Sac by 2025.
Great List! Thanks for all the research. :)
Sacdelicious
Jun 14, 2007, 5:05 PM
FYI: The project on 16th & H St. has started erecting steel....the shell has reached up to the second floor or so on the H. St side. This project is going to be bigger than I think most people expected....
Trojan
Jun 14, 2007, 8:02 PM
What project is going up on 16th and H?
Sacdelicious
Jun 14, 2007, 9:06 PM
Cooper Union Building
16th and H
50 Housing Units, 10K Retail Space
http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/7564/1334/320/139054/43B018F0-F468-4305-8CB3-717325CF05C5_or.jpg
It's going to be 5 stories I believe.
innov8
Jun 14, 2007, 11:01 PM
:previous: The Cooper Union Building will help get that stretch of 16th look a lot better too.
innov8
Jun 14, 2007, 11:29 PM
This hole is pretty impressive with all the rebar set up for the pour.
Sutter foundation to be poured
Sacramento Business Journal
2:47 PM PDT Thursday, June 14, 2007
A block of 28th Street between Capitol and L streets in midtown will be closed between 6 p.m. Friday and 6 p.m. Saturday for construction at new Sutter Medical Foundation medical office building.
Neighbors and others can view a concrete pour of the foundation by webcam on the Internet at http://suttermedicalcenter.org/expansion/ Photos are uploaded to the Web site every 20 minutes.
The Killer view: http://sutterhealth.oxblue.com/smcsacramento/
Sacto
Jun 15, 2007, 3:14 AM
^ Good stuff. I will be checkin out that web cam once in a while.
Phillip
Jun 15, 2007, 4:02 AM
:previous: The Cooper Union Building will help get that stretch of 16th look a lot better too. One successful project on 16th north of I will be the catalyst for more, I hope. So much of that stretch of 16th is empty or underutilized.
The Washington Park Village Townhomes are going up now at 17th and D. Cooper Union at 16th and H. I noticed one of those old motels on 16th---cant remember which, but between D and H---has closed and is fenced off. Another good development opportunity there, if they're not trying to sell it to another motel operator.
ltsmotorsport
Jun 15, 2007, 4:16 AM
This hole is pretty impressive with all the rebar set up for the pour.
Sutter foundation to be poured
Sacramento Business Journal
2:47 PM PDT Thursday, June 14, 2007
A block of 28th Street between Capitol and L streets in midtown will be closed between 6 p.m. Friday and 6 p.m. Saturday for construction at new Sutter Medical Foundation medical office building.
Neighbors and others can view a concrete pour of the foundation by webcam on the Internet at http://suttermedicalcenter.org/expansion/ Photos are uploaded to the Web site every 20 minutes.
The Killer view: http://sutterhealth.oxblue.com/smcsacramento/
We finally get an oxblue camera on a project in Sac. I love how you can go back an check progress through multiple times in the day.
aufbau
Jun 15, 2007, 6:10 AM
FYI: The project on 16th & H St. has started erecting steel....the shell has reached up to the second floor or so on the H. St side. This project is going to be bigger than I think most people expected....
Awesome news there. I keep forgetting about this project unless I pass by it. Last time I looked they were still laying utility lines. I need to take a walk this weekend...
Jay916
Jun 15, 2007, 8:29 AM
http://www.sacbee.com/101/story/223798.html
Thunder Valley plans to expand
Tribe that owns casino seeks to build resort with region's largest hotel and a performance venue.
By Bill Lindelof - Bee Staff Writer
Published 12:00 am PDT Friday, June 15, 2007
The United Auburn Indian Community revealed plans Thursday to build a hotel bigger than anything existing in the Sacramento region -- a 650-room resort.
Expansion would also include a 3,000-seat performing arts theater next to the hotel at Thunder Valley Casino near Lincoln.
Casino owners promise to bring big-name acts and large conventions to the new 23-story hotel, theater and ballrooms.
One suite will be 2,500 square feet -- equivalent to a large home. In addition, three themed suites will be 2,000 square feet each, including one focusing on sports.
Documents will be filed today with Placer County concerning the expansion. In an interview Thursday, General Manager Scott Garawitz outlined the ambitious plans.
Constructing a hotel has always been part of the 4-year-old casino's long-range plan, he said. Customers have been demanding on-site accommodations for convenience.
"Virtually from the day we opened, people asked, 'Where's the hotel?' " Garawitz said. "And the other question was, 'Where is the entertainment?' Well, here it is."
Approvals for the project could take a year. Construction will take two more years.
The hotel would create about 1,200 new jobs, bringing the total number of employees at Thunder Valley to 3,200. More than 1,000 construction jobs would be generated.
The expansion was outlined in a casino meeting room by Garawitz, a plain-talking, casually dressed executive in a Tommy Bahama shirt. The expansion would include:
• A four- or five-star hotel on the order of Four Seasons.
• A spa, pool and arcade.
• More slot machines and a new poker room.
• Two ballrooms totaling 30,000 square feet that can accommodate 2,000 occupants.
• A performing arts center versatile enough to handle trade shows, concerts and theater.
• A nine-floor garage with enough spaces for 5,000 vehicles.
• Three new restaurants.
The new amenities will enable Thunder Valley to compete with other gambling houses. Located near Interstate 80, Thunder Valley is on the way to Reno and Lake Tahoe resorts.
The sprawling casino also competes with other Indian facilities -- the planned casino in the El Dorado County community of Shingle Springs and Cache Creek Casino Resort in Yolo County's Capay Valley.
Cache Creek, which already has 200 hotel rooms, earlier this month announced its own expansion, including 467 additional hotel rooms, 27 "hillside casitas," two formal restaurants, more gaming and a large event-conference center.
The United Auburn Indian Community pays Placer County $2.7 million each year for revenue in lieu of property taxes. After expansion, that would grow to $10.7 million.
Once the hotel is built, the casino will pay the county about $1.4 million a year in room occupancy tax.
Placer County Supervisor Robert Weygandt said that there will be opportunities for the public to comment on the project.
"We will deal with this project in a way that has similar outcomes as any other major project proposal in Placer County," said Weygandt, who represents the area and last year benefited from a large contribution from the tribe in staving off a challenge from a political rival.
A public meeting to gather input on the scope of the tribal environmental impact report is scheduled for 10 a.m. July 11 at Western Placer Waste Management Authority Administrative Office, 3033 Fiddyment Road, Roseville.
Thunder Valley Casino opened in June 2003, situated among the brown hills in developing Placer County, 25 miles from Sacramento.
With 650 hotel rooms, the casino would become a major player among the Sacramento region's innkeepers. Downtown, the Sheraton Grand Sacramento Hotel and the Hyatt Regency Sacramento each have about 500 guest rooms.
"This will be on the order of Ritz-Carlton and Four Seasons," said Doug Elmets, a spokesman for the tribe. "There is nothing like it anywhere around."
Garawitz said a Montreal-based theater designer with a reputation for constructing venues with exceptional acoustics will build the performing arts center.
"We can do name acts, Broadway shows and stand-up comedy," he said. The casino does not have a theater now.
The hotel will have subdued exterior lighting, he said.
"I know that lighting is a concern, and we are sensitive to that," he said. "It's going to be a Ritz-Carlton style of lighting -- not a Wynn Las Vegas high beam."
The hotel will be appointed with marble floors and crystal chandeliers -- in addition to decoration recalling the traditional lifestyle of the owners.
Raised acorn decorations on doors and basket weave pattern carpet planned for the project recall the culture, heritage and traditions of the United Auburn Indian Community.
"The theme of the whole property is basically comfortable elegance with a California Native American flair," Garawitz said.
Among the new restaurants will be an oyster bar with a large aquarium and chandeliers to resemble blocks of ice.
The casino has a little over 2,700 slot machines, and a compact signed by tribes in 2004 with Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger allows for more. It has not been determined how many would be added, Garawitz said.
http://www.sacbee.com/static/live/news/images/0615casino.jpg
innov8
Jun 15, 2007, 3:13 PM
[url]
Expansion would also include a 3,000-seat performing arts theater next to the hotel at Thunder Valley Casino near Lincoln.
Casino owners promise to bring big-name acts and large conventions to the new 23-story hotel, theater and ballrooms. [/img]
They actually scaled it back in size from what they originally wanted to build... a 31 story hotel.
innov8
Jun 15, 2007, 3:30 PM
Saca eyes new heights after selling Towers stake
City committee to look at 39-story condominium project next week
Sacramento Business Journal - June 15, 2007
by Michael Shaw
Developer John Saca says he's still in the high-rise business.
While a little bruised from the unsuccessful effort to save The Towers on Capitol Mall, Saca is forging ahead with another downtown Sacramento project -- a 39-story condo tower at 10th and J streets.
The Metropolitan, which if built at its projected 420 feet, would be taller than any building in the capital today, is on the agenda of the city of Sacramento's Design Commission for Wednesday.
This week, Saca sold his interest in The Towers to his equity partner, the California Public Employees' Retirement System, ending what became a futile attempt to save the project by landing more financing and buying out CalPERS.
The pension fund and its development partner, CIM Group Inc., haven't decided what they will build on the property, but it won't be the twin 53-story luxury condominium towers that Saca started building before cost overruns halted construction in January.
"(CIM) has been very clear to us they're interested in a spectacular project that's mixed-use," assistant city manager John Dangberg said.
In an interview this week, Saca sounded a little disheartened about the fate of his pet project, but said he expects to find success the second time around. He blamed the plunging real estate market for The Towers' failure, deflecting claims that he overreached or lacked enough experience. The Towers was Saca's first foray into high-rise construction and would have dominated the capital's skyline.
"Lenders started tightening up. It became evident that this was really the only solution," he said of selling his interest in The Towers project to CalPERS. "We couldn't find another partner."
He noted that buyers put down deposits on almost 400 condos at The Towers, with a value of more than $270 million, showing a strong interest in the concept. The deposits are being refunded.
While The Towers struggled, Saca didn't abandon plans for The Metropolitan.
"He's moving forward quite aggressively with that project," Dangberg said. He said the experience with The Towers hasn't diminished Saca's standing in the city's eyes.
The 320-condo project is smaller in scale and far less expensive than the $500 million-plus for The Towers.
Bruce Slaton, a real estate agent who specializes in Sacramento's condo market, said it makes sense for Saca to explore another high-rise, because there seems to be a demand for downtown luxury living. But with no benchmark high-rise for comparison, all the support and demand are meaningless if the projects aren't financially viable, Slaton said.
With The Towers dead, and with it Saca's proposal for an InterContinental Hotel supported by an $11 million city subsidy, Saca said he's exploring the idea of putting a hotel in The Metropolitan. He has not approached the city for a subsidy and hasn't shared his funding sources for the building other than to tell city officials he has the resources lined up to build it, assistant city manager Mary Hanneman said.
Saca declined to say how much he was paid to depart as the managing partner in The Towers partnership.
"I'll be OK," Saca said of the impact from his personal stake in the project, both financially and in reputation. "Obviously, I lost thousands of hours of time and a lot of money."
snufalufugus
Jun 15, 2007, 4:34 PM
The Metropolitan, which if built at its projected 420 feet, would be taller than any building in the capital today, is on the agenda of the city of Sacramento's Design Commission for Wednesday.
420 feet being the tallest in Sac? I wish Saca can somehow find a way to add 50-70 feet to this building so it can really stick out from the rest of the skyline. I flew out of Sacramento last week and viewed downtown from terminal A and was surprised to see how flat the skyline looked. The sac skyline definitely needs some variation in building heights.
sugit
Jun 15, 2007, 4:39 PM
420 feet being the tallest in Sac? I wish Saca can somehow find a way to add 50-70 feet to this building so it can really stick out from the rest of the skyline.
I wish Saca can somehow find a way to get this one built. That section of J Street is one of the worst. With all the other stuff opening up around it, it would jsut add that much more synergy to the area.
You have to admire his balls. He's going to be catching so much shit from the media and people who wanted him to fail in The Towers so badly. They will never let him live it down until he can get one built. Even starting construction won't silence people , he needs to make sure it's completed.
wburg
Jun 15, 2007, 5:00 PM
Maybe he's seeing how many holes he can leave in downtown?
"assistant city manager Mary Hanneman"? Typos can be hilarious... (his name is Marty.)
The Cathedral tower project, a block away, went before Planning for advice & comment last night. It's shaping up, the streetscape is decent but personally I would have liked to see them try to preserve a few more elements from the buildings they are demolishing, if only to create more ground-floor interest (they already plan to recycle some of the brick.) One problem with a lot of new buildings, especially the taller ones, is that the ground floor still looks like an office building even if they're supposed to have ground floor retail (800 J being a case in point,) not very inviting for foot traffic. More visual interest, like the engaging streetfronts currently in place, might help people realize there are businesses there.
Is "performing arts center" the new word for "theater"?
sugit
Jun 15, 2007, 5:15 PM
The Cathedral tower project, a block away, went before Planning for advice & comment last night. It's shaping up, the streetscape is decent but personally I would have liked to see them try to preserve a few more elements from the buildings they are demolishing, if only to create more ground-floor interest (they already plan to recycle some of the brick.) One problem with a lot of new buildings, especially the taller ones, is that the ground floor still looks like an office building even if they're supposed to have ground floor retail (800 J being a case in point,) not very inviting for foot traffic. More visual interest, like the engaging streetfronts currently in place, might help people realize there are businesses there.
I really like the 11t street side of Cathedral Sqaure, but not so much the J Street side. I have seen any recent rendering so hopeully after the last comments from DR they made some changes on that side.
I think part of the problem its not inviting to foot traffic is there is no reason for foot traffic right now. Once the buisiness actually open at 800J, there will be plenty of foot traffic on that block. They need to make sure signage is done well though.
wburg
Jun 15, 2007, 5:53 PM
The 11th Street side does have more articulation and interest, the J Street side is still sort of bleh, and the alley side is pretty much a plain brick wall with bands of lighter colored brick and a few windows for garage ventilation. They'll have whatever material they recover from the demo, theoretically they could do something kinda neat on the alley side if they wanted to, and Planning encouraged them to explore those options.
innov8
Jun 15, 2007, 6:27 PM
Maybe he's seeing how many holes he can leave in downtown?
Now why are you giving John a hard time?
otnemarcaS
Jun 15, 2007, 6:48 PM
I think part of the problem its not inviting to foot traffic is there is no reason for foot traffic right now. Once the buisiness actually open at 800J, there will be plenty of foot traffic on that block. They need to make sure signage is done well though.
Yup, kinda like the 16th and J block. Remember the before and after. After all those restaurants (Mikuni, PF Changs, Bistro 33) opened up, the foot traffic around that area certainly increased.
wburg
Jun 15, 2007, 7:30 PM
otnemarcaS: That block had the advantage of a historic building (with considerable architectural interest to draw people in) and a well-built mixed-use building behind it, plus all the outdoor seating to draw people in. 800 J is just so bleh and featureless, they'll need big colorful signage just to let people know there is a business there. The Cathedral project does include a public courtyard and a restaurant with outdoor seating, to its benefit.
innov8: It sounds like he's already having a hard time, I'm just enjoying a little schadenfreude. Considering that this project will take down some buildings that could potentially be very nice (the Plaza Building, the Art Deco building on the corner with the unfortunate window remodel, and the badly remuddled and abused Biltmore and Broiler) I have to admit a certain bitterness about this building site. I'm not going to go chain myself to the building or anything, I'd just hate to see another failure pit in the heart of downtown. And I'm sure that he's not going to do anything with the historic components except ship 'em off to a landfill.
innov8
Jun 15, 2007, 9:41 PM
Well wburg, I knew it was only a matter of time before you started to rally
against change, and this is one of the worst corners and stretches on J Street. If the
Biltmore building was worth saving, why isn't your group or some group up
in arms making a stink? Is it not worth the battle?
Texicali
Jun 15, 2007, 10:42 PM
I do hope the Metropolitan gets built, but for those of you hoping that Saca can squeeze on a few extra stories that is not possible. Such a step would include an expansion would require a new project description, and with it a new EIR.
Sacramento as a whole is pretty flat. While it would be nice to have a few taller buildings, I think making sure that any new buildings have interesting roofs would actually go a lot farther towards making downtown interesting. Too many of the buildings are just squared off boxes on top.
ozone
Jun 15, 2007, 10:48 PM
As many have said J Street between 10th and 11th is one of the city's worst. I love Art Deco but none of these buildings look exceptional to me. They all seem rather bland, washed-out examples of Deco (from the outside anyway). Maybe they've just been remodeled to death and could be brought back to life but at this point I care more about the health of the city and getting people back into the core than I do about preserving these buildings. I'm pretty sure I won't cry to see them go bye-bye.
wburg
Jun 15, 2007, 10:49 PM
I'm not rallying against it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.
The Biltmore and the Broiler are in the worst condition of any of that cluster of buildings, partially because they have been abandoned (and therefore have been used as crack dens and squats) for the past several years, and the unfortunate "updating" they received a few decades back means that their original facades are gone, making them harder to restore (but not impossible.)
The only reason why it's a "worst corner" is because the buildings have been boarded up and abandoned, or closed up and cut off from the street. No matter how great a building is (or could be, with some attention), if the owner deliberately kicks out the tenants, boards it up, and lets it deteriorate, it automatically becomes a bad corner. Put the same buildings in the hands of someone who wants them to be used, and watch the difference.
Right across the street you find a corner with buildings of similar vintage, which is doing just fine: two lunchtime restaurants, a skateboard shop, a studio occupied by well-known local artist Skinner, Rodney's liquor store/cigar shop, and the soon-to-open Parlare Lounge, flanked by a law school and a restaurant association (in the bank building). The main difference? The owner of the building allowed the structures to remain occupied and active!
The corner building on the project site, a 1940s Art Deco cube, is pretty unfriendly due to its covered-over window openings and lack of shade. The Plaza Building is a little long in the tooth but it's certainly not decaying, collapsing or uninhabited. The Biltmore/Broiler buildings were not vacated due to anything but Saca's desire to build a skyscraper on that spot. These buildings are going away simply because the owner of the land wants them gone, not because the structures themselves are inherently dangerous or nuisance-generating.
Part of activism is knowing how to pick your battles. I don't foresee there being an enormous preservationist stink about that corner in particular because the buildings are either not particularly old, not particularly gorgeous, or not particularly salvageable given their current state, and, as I have mentioned before, I acknowledge that there is a market for some tall buildings. I'd rather see them on Tenth and J than, say, on Twentieth and J.
But my hopes aren't high for Saca's success either. He seems to be following the George W. Bush school of success in business (fail dramatically, refuse to acknowledge that you did anything wrong, and have Daddy bail you out as you move on to the next project.) If someone with a good track record, like Taylor or Giannoni, were doing this, I'd feel better about the potential outcome although I might still be a bit grouchy about the buildings.
ozone
Jun 15, 2007, 11:14 PM
I don't think Saca is going all 'dubya' on us. For one he has actually admitted his failure and I'm sure learned from it. I know people who went to school with John and they said he was a real arrogant punk. Humiliation sometimes can be a good thing. I think this whole Towers fiasco might be a good experience not only for John but for all us in Sacramento. Sacramento has the basic ingredients.. but now we've got to get our collective acts together if we expect to become a great, good city.
ltsmotorsport
Jun 15, 2007, 11:17 PM
So maybe the city should have a history museum to tell the stories, not leave crumbling relics in the way of progress.
I also don't know where you got the idea that Saca was the one who let the Biltmore/Broiler decay. They have been long abandoned, way before Saca and his family bought the property.
On the block south of J street, I think the city should kick in some money for some facade improvements, like they did on K street. The buildings may be occupied, but looking at them from the street, you would think they belong in the ghetto.
ozone
Jun 15, 2007, 11:49 PM
Don't give anyone any ideas ltsmotorsport. The last thing Sacramento needs right now is another 'the way it was' mausoleum ..er.. I mean museum.
I totally agree about the buildings facing City Park but I suspect that the new Citizen Hotel will become a catalyst for change on that block soon. It's already happening. The small Victorian/Edwardian building next to it is being converted to "office lofts". If the city does anything it should redo the sidewalk and plant street trees. At least that would kind of hide the uglies.
innov8
Jun 16, 2007, 12:08 AM
But my hopes aren't high for Saca's success either. He seems to be following the George W. Bush school of success in business (fail dramatically, refuse to acknowledge that you did anything wrong, and have Daddy bail you out as you move on to the next project.) If someone with a good track record, like Taylor or Giannoni, were doing this, I'd feel better about the potential outcome although I might still be a bit grouchy about the buildings.
Damn Wberg, it sounds to me like you’re jealous of John in that his father is
sticking with him to help him achieve his goal… I think most fathers would.
From the tone of your post, it reads like if you had failed at doing something
you give up and walk away never to try it again. It hard to respect people
who give up after not getting what they want the first time they try.
I respect a person more who doesn’t give up than those who do… giving up is
sign of weakness and lack of determination…those are the kind of people you
can’t ever depend on.
Yikes!!! If you think the other side of the street is better only because they
are occupied, you standards are much lower than mine. Every time I walk by
there, those fine stores attracting only the BEST Sacramento shoppers.
wburg
Jun 16, 2007, 12:08 AM
I like museums fine, but old buildings work fine in a modern city if they are utilized rather than being left to rot. There are plenty of examples of historic buildings (and prosaic buildings that are not-so-historic) that are still useful, maintained, vital parts of central cities. Buildings, as I have mentioned before, tell a city's history to the everyday inhabitants, as well as to tourists, in a way that a museum can't deliver.
I'll agree that the Lorenzo Patino School of Law needs a little dress-up paint, but other than that the southeast corner is just fine--the folks doing the Parlare Euro thingamabobber have been doing all sorts of detail work on the building, and opened up the windows along the back of Rodney's Liquors (they were covered with a mural before) which gives the corner a whole different look.
South of J Street on Tenth, aside from the Golden Hotel and its "99 Cent Store" all of the buildings are at least clean and well-maintained.
Sidewalks are something I think are worth fighting for: many of the sidewalks around still conceal access passageways from the era when Sacramento raised its downtown streets. Any place where you see little round glass things set in the concrete there is a hollow space beneath, and the glass serves as little skylights. Street elevators are another dead giveaway. The corner where Saca wants to build the Metropolitan doesn't have them anymore--they were filled in during a past renovation project. In addition to the under-sidewalk passageways, some of the sidewalks in that area still have granite curbs, originally quarried from Folsom and once commonplace but only found on a few corners now.
As to the Biltmore, it only closed a few years back--2001 or 2002, as I recall. When did the Saca family buy the property?
sugit
Jun 16, 2007, 12:20 AM
The Saca's bought the property around 2 years ago.
The owner before, Dean Ingemanson wanted to tear the buildings down for mixed use housing project, but he butted heads with preservationists.
http://sacramento.bizjournals.com/sacramento/stories/2002/05/27/story6.html
Here is another article....
http://www.bizjournals.com/sacramento/stories/2002/06/17/editorial2.html
"Across J from the Biltmore is a fine old public clock, about the height of a street sign. Restoring that clock to good working order would do more to practically enhance the historic feel of that block than spending millions on subsidies trying to contrive a new use for a minor relic."
wburg
Jun 16, 2007, 1:11 AM
Okay, I stand corrected once again (to be honest, part of why I like this board is that I have learned a few things already) about the ownership of the property, but the mechanism is the same: the Sacas bought the building to tear it down. It sounded like it was city staff, rather than community preservationist action, that stood in the way of demolition for the previous project.
I'd agree that restoring that clock to working order would be pretty awesome.
innov8: Yeah, my standards probably are much lower than yours. I like a mix of incomes and social status in close proximity: I think it is healthier than either a snobby playground for the rich or a segregated ghetto for the poor, or bland suburbs for the middle class.
And on that corner you have a private association in a beautiful bank building (mostly people in suits), a swanky "euro lounge" (that, when it opens, will probably draw people who pay more for shirts in a year than I paid for my car), a liquor/cigar store with a walk-in humidor and expensive wines as well as malt liquor 40s and Basic Menthols (everyone goes there), two restaurants (where I mostly see city staff and state worker types), the skate shop (mostly middle-class looking youth of diverse races), the studio (artists and hipsters) and a law school (law students.)
To me, that kind of diversity is alive, active, eclectic--in a word, URBAN.
I'm no stranger to determination in the face of adversity, and have often pursued projects undaunted by past failures, but none of my screwups have resulted in a hole the size of a city block.
BrianSac
Jun 16, 2007, 2:17 AM
I'm no stranger to determination in the face of adversity, and have often pursued projects undaunted by past failures, but none of my screwups have resulted in a hole the size of a city block.
wburg,
With all due respect, I rather see that hole in the ground than that hideous Sacramento Union building. So, thanks John, for demolishing the Sacramento Union building.
Incidently, I always wondered why preservationists didnt try to save the Sacramento Union building. I didnt want to bring it up until I knew that friggin building was dust. :yes:
aufbau
Jun 16, 2007, 4:19 AM
^yes, despite CIM's track record with downtown, let's rest assured that they will propose something that at least has some windows and (hopefully) be higher than three floors.
ltsmotorsport
Jun 16, 2007, 6:49 AM
I'm no stranger to determination in the face of adversity, and have often pursued projects undaunted by past failures, but none of my screwups have resulted in a hole the size of a city block.
But have you ever had a project so complex and challenging? Nothing that has been proposed in the past has ever come close to the size and scope of this project, so I think you're comparing apples to oranges.
Now back on track...ozone, I actually meant the block between 10th and 11th, not the one facing the park, but my sentiments remain the same. The Patino Law School building needs some serious love. And I'm just glad that after more than a decade of being burned out, the Copenhagen building will be gone.:notacrook:
arod74
Jun 16, 2007, 6:40 PM
Incidently, I always wondered why preservationists didnt try to save the Sacramento Union building. I didnt want to bring it up until I knew that friggin building was dust. :yes:
Not sure if your being facetious, but there was nothing to preserve about the Union building. That is unless someone out there loves 3 story poured concrete squares that take up a whole city block. The lack of any windows or any redeeming architectual value didnt help its cause either. I've seen better looking communist goventment buildings. Generally speaking there isn't a huge movememt to save the mistakes made in 70's era architecture:yuck: . The only thing worth saving would have been the trees surrounding it.
jsf8278
Jun 16, 2007, 9:07 PM
Has anyone been to the MARRS site over on 20th st? Im out of town for the summer and was just wondering what the deal is with that place.
Thanks:banana:
ozone
Jun 16, 2007, 10:26 PM
MARRS is slow in getting started but an art gallery just opened and Luigis Pizza is uc.
BrianSac
Jun 16, 2007, 10:27 PM
Not sure if your being facetious, but there was nothing to preserve about the Union building. That is unless someone out there loves 3 story poured concrete squares that take up a whole city block. The lack of any windows or any redeeming architectual value didnt help its cause either. I've seen better looking communist goventment buildings. Generally speaking there isn't a huge movememt to save the mistakes made in 70's era architecture:yuck: . The only thing worth saving would have been the trees surrounding it.
I was being facetious. I hated that building, especially considering it remained vacant for so long. Although I am curious what preservationists felt about that building and why they didnt put up a fight regarding its demolition considering who occupied it for so long.
innov8
Jun 17, 2007, 4:22 AM
innov8: Yeah, my standards probably are much lower than yours. I like a mix of incomes and social status in close proximity: I think it is healthier than either a snobby playground for the rich or a segregated ghetto for the poor, or bland suburbs for the middle class.
And on that corner you have a private association in a beautiful bank building (mostly people in suits), a swanky "euro lounge" (that, when it opens, will probably draw people who pay more for shirts in a year than I paid for my car), a liquor/cigar store with a walk-in humidor and expensive wines as well as malt liquor 40s and Basic Menthols (everyone goes there), two restaurants (where I mostly see city staff and state worker types), the skate shop (mostly middle-class looking youth of diverse races), the studio (artists and hipsters) and a law school (law students.)
To me, that kind of diversity is alive, active, eclectic--in a word, URBAN.
I'm no stranger to determination in the face of adversity, and have often pursued projects undaunted by past failures, but none of my screwups have resulted in a hole the size of a city block.
http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/9489/jstreet1finalsm2oe5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
I took this photo last year for a photo thread. So this is the stretch of J Street
you think is "healthy"? Man, I can't think of any part of J Street that looks
worse on both sides of the street than this. To describe this section of J St. as Alive,
active, eclecticis is to funny... it's on the verge of ghetto... tiring to save blocks
like this from bigger and better projects give preservationist a bad rep.
Restoring that clock to working order is the only redeemable quality on this
part of J Street between 10th & 11th.
Deno
Jun 17, 2007, 4:23 PM
Put the Clock on the New building.
innov8
Jun 17, 2007, 9:54 PM
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/7999/621cm20070527fsb6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
wburg
Jun 18, 2007, 4:06 PM
briansac: I'm not sure why preservationists would rally around the Sacramento Union building. The building itself was comparatively new (1960s/70s I think) and was constructed as part of downtown's original wave of redevelopment, which destroyed our old Japantown and surrounding neighborhoods. So, while it's hard to generalize about "preservationists", I don't imagine many people get real broken up about the fate of structures that were built recently, and on the rubble of much more beautiful buildings.
innov8: The corner in particular that I like is the portion from Patino Law to Rodney's Liquors. And yeah, that particular corner looks fine to me. The buildings aren't super-shiny but they are intact and operating (although, as I mentioned above the Patino building could use some paint & maint.) I'm not sure what qualifies that corner as "on the verge of ghetto," so maybe you could be more specific about what makes a corner "ghetto" and what makes it otherwise. The things I don't see in that picture that would make me more concerned about the corner's condition would be boarded up or shattered windows, graffiti, lots of trash on the street, and indifferently maintained street greenery. But you don't see that in this photo.
And yes, there are boarded-up buildings down the block--but I'm not talking about those buildings. And, as mentioned above, they are boarded up because the owner wants them that way.
BrianSac
Jun 18, 2007, 4:33 PM
briansac: I'm not sure why preservationists would rally around the Sacramento Union building. The building itself was comparatively new (1960s/70s I think) and was constructed as part of downtown's original wave of redevelopment, which destroyed our old Japantown and surrounding neighborhoods. So, while it's hard to generalize about "preservationists", I don't imagine many people get real broken up about the fate of structures that were built recently, and on the rubble of much more beautiful buildings.
wburg, thanks for the response. I figured as such.
travis bickle
Jun 18, 2007, 7:25 PM
http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/9489/jstreet1finalsm2oe5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
I took this photo last year for a photo thread. So this is the stretch of J Street
you think is "healthy"? Man, I can't think of any part of J Street that looks
worse on both sides of the street than this. To describe this section of J St. as Alive,
active, eclecticis is to funny... it's on the verge of ghetto... tiring to save blocks
like this from bigger and better projects give preservationist a bad rep.
Restoring that clock to working order is the only redeemable quality on this
part of J Street between 10th & 11th.
The building on the far left foreground... that really beautiful one with the strange brown blocks.
That was actually a 70s redesign by Ed Kado, Ziggurat and 621 Capitol Mall (Parthenon version and present) architect.
So as you can see, Kado is no stranger to hideous design.
Regarding some of the Saca comments, I just hope he doesn't go all "Clinton" on us, and try to force something down our throats...
or go all "Kerry" on us, and shoot himself in the ass again (although the purple heart does look nice next to his wife's millions),...
or go all "Reid" on us and declare the battle lost before he even has all of his forces on the ground...
or go all "Murtha" on us and accept bribes for services rendered (or merely promised)...
or go all "Pelosi" on us and accomplish absolutely nothing since seizing power...
Hey, comparing political hypocrisy and futility to a local developer is easy and fun.
Thanks for introducing the game to us guys!:D
ozone
Jun 18, 2007, 7:49 PM
Just proves conservatives can be asses too.:D
travis bickle
Jun 18, 2007, 7:52 PM
Just proves conservatives can be asses too.:D
From one ass to another then...
travis bickle
Jun 18, 2007, 10:54 PM
They actually scaled it back in size from what they originally wanted to build... a 31 story hotel.
It's good to see our indian brothers living in harmony with the land...
kryptos
Jun 19, 2007, 12:37 AM
It's good to see our indian brothers living in harmony with the land...
what would a republican know about harmony? with your kind always raising the terror alert from red to orange and blah, attempt to scare us with the danger coming from model airplanes and bottled water, and try to convince us that to lose in iraq will mean fighting the terrorists here at home...bunch of crap...
as far as the natives putting a hotel on land that is rightfully theirs, get over it
travis bickle
Jun 19, 2007, 1:59 AM
what would a republican know about harmony? with your kind always raising the terror alert from red to orange and blah, attempt to scare us with the danger coming from model airplanes and bottled water, and try to convince us that to lose in iraq will mean fighting the terrorists here at home...bunch of crap...
as far as the natives putting a hotel on land that is rightfully theirs, get over it
Easy there pad'ner... no need to get your headdress in a snit. Listen, I'm not saying our native American friends can't build anything they want on their land. They can. And they have every right to. At the same time, putting a 23 storey tower in the middle of a meadow is an environmental disaster. I'd always been told that the Native American people lived in harmony with mother earth. Turns out, they're every bit as greedy with as little concern for the environment as Jay Gould. Sorry if that doesn't fit you're little meta-narrative. But it's absolutely true.
Phew... I can just feel the love.
creamcityleo79
Jun 19, 2007, 3:11 AM
Easy there pad'ner... no need to get your headdress in a snit. Listen, I'm not saying our native American friends can't build anything they want on their land. They can. And they have every right to. At the same time, putting a 23 storey tower in the middle of a meadow is an environmental disaster. I'd always been told that the Native American people lived in harmony with mother earth. Turns out, they're every bit as greedy with as little concern for the environment as Jay Gould. Sorry if that doesn't fit you're little meta-narrative. But it's absolutely true.
Phew... I can just feel the love.
Sacramento is not known for being a particularly conservative city! So, it shouldn't surprise you that you would get such a harsh response from the resident libby's (myself included). That said, generalizations are never a good thing. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there ARE good republicans out there! Although I have yet to meet one myself. I'm sure they're out there somewhere!:tup:
ltsmotorsport
Jun 19, 2007, 3:49 AM
And yes, there are boarded-up buildings down the block...And, as mentioned above, they are boarded up because the owner wants them that way.
Wrong again. Copenhagen is boarded up because it is structurally unsound after the fire a decade or more ago. It's not someone's sick ploy to destroy a fit building.:rolleyes:
kryptos
Jun 19, 2007, 4:15 AM
Sacramento is not known for being a particularly conservative city! So, it shouldn't surprise you that you would get such a harsh response from the resident libby's (myself included). That said, generalizations are never a good thing. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there ARE good republicans out there! Although I have yet to meet one myself. I'm sure they're out there somewhere!:tup:
It hits a little bit closer to home...Some of my family lives on a Indian reservation in Shingle Springs. They are just in the beginning steps of building their Casino. Its taken years upon years, and local residents were trying to stop the Casino from being built. So when someone challenges their right to build on their own land, it pisses me off...
@ travis
Since when do republicans care about mother nature and environmental disasters? lol I guess that means youre against drilling in Alaska or off the California coastline? And of course you must be against cutting down redwoods, or draining Mono lake or the Delta to quench the thirst of Southern Californians? lol Youre an idiot. Take a look around...Sacramento used to be a meadow....so whats your point? Is Sac an "environmental disaster"?
aufbau
Jun 19, 2007, 6:18 AM
can we get back to bickering over the future of stalled projects and not politics?
travis bickle
Jun 19, 2007, 2:05 PM
It hits a little bit closer to home...Some of my family lives on a Indian reservation in Shingle Springs. They are just in the beginning steps of building their Casino. Its taken years upon years, and local residents were trying to stop the Casino from being built. So when someone challenges their right to build on their own land, it pisses me off...
@ travis
Since when do republicans care about mother nature and environmental disasters? lol I guess that means youre against drilling in Alaska or off the California coastline? And of course you must be against cutting down redwoods, or draining Mono lake or the Delta to quench the thirst of Southern Californians? lol Youre an idiot. Take a look around...Sacramento used to be a meadow....so whats your point? Is Sac an "environmental disaster"?
Listen kryptos... you're WAY overreacting here. It doesn't matter how you want to spin it - or what you would like to accuse me of - you can't build a 23 storey tower in the middle of a meadow and call it anything other than an environmental disaster. And BTW - I've done more environmental mitigation - which I wholeheartedly support - in the last month than you've probably done in your entire life. Please accept my apologies in advance if you don't drive a car, have never ridden in one and read at night by candlelight.
You're the one who injected politics when you went on your little tantrum - and an ignorant one at that - about republicans. My point is completely valid. Here it is: Here - today in 2007 (not 150 years ago) - isolated towers and meadows are environmentally completely and indisputedly incompatible. There are no set of circumstances, unless you are blinded by your own hatred and anger that anyone can come to another conclusion. Environmental impact of projects, even in sovereign Indian nations, are completely legitimate topics here in this forum.
All people want to be treated equally, but that means if you're going to rape the land, you get called on it just like everyone else.
But after being told for generations that Indians lived only in harmony with the land, it is clear that now that that is a crock. Hypocrisy comes in all colors, races, religions and nationalities. Right now you're the hypocrite. You reel off a set of environmental issues implying a certain set of values, yet you now justify destroying a mountain ecosystem in the pursuit of casino profits.
Again, Indians have the absolute right to build whatever they want on their land. But rape is rape pal... and you're guilty of it.
travis bickle
Jun 19, 2007, 2:09 PM
Sacramento is not known for being a particularly conservative city! So, it shouldn't surprise you that you would get such a harsh response from the resident libby's (myself included). That said, generalizations are never a good thing. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there ARE good republicans out there! Although I have yet to meet one myself. I'm sure they're out there somewhere!:tup:
I thought preserving mountain ecosystems was a liberal cause...
kryptos
Jun 19, 2007, 2:58 PM
I thought preserving mountain ecosystems was a liberal cause...
just because were libs, doesnt mean were anti-growth, tree hugging, fruits of the forest eating vegan fanatics....
but yes it i true that liberals have preserved the environment 10,000 times more than any conservatives...
innov8
Jun 19, 2007, 3:04 PM
^ Give it a break already... take this to PM.
What is a Rivercat?
Jun 19, 2007, 3:42 PM
Travis, you're wrong I'm afraid. As a republican and supporter of high-rises all over our region, I present the following as proof:
http://www.thaldenboyd.com/images/morongo.jpg
http://www.luxehotels.com/pics/1589_t.jpg
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200607/r95342_287777.jpg
This is pretty much the ONLY building taller than 12 stories anywhere between Phoenix and Los Angeles.
wburg
Jun 19, 2007, 4:11 PM
itsmotorsport: I didn't say the buildings were "fit"--in the best cases they are neglected and run-down, in the worst cases burnt-out shells. And because the owner valued the future speculative value of the land, rather than the building itself, they allowed the boarded-up facade to sit vacant rather than attempt any sort of repair, rehabilitation or, well, doing anything but slapping some plywood on the openings and letting it become a bat habitat.
(late-evening Sacramento tip: At just before sundown, go hang out in the alley between the Crest Theater and the Copenhagen Building. When the sun goes down, a giant swarm of bats flies out of the Copenhagen's attic. It's most dramatic, if you're into swarms of flying rodents.)
I'm sorry if my Dubya/Saca comment started a politics flamewar. Personally I have little good to say about either Republicans or Democrats. Other than a brief stint as a Libertarian, I have been a member of the "Decline to State" party for twenty years now. I don't think that environmentalism and city building are mutually exclusive--nobody is suggesting that we go back to living on the land, largely because the land doesn't have the carrying capacity for seven billion hunter/gatherers.
Growing awareness of environmental issues, in cities and out (starting largely with Republicans like Teddy Roosevelt a century ago) have made cities more liveable places (compare reports of sooty, filthy cities a century ago to the modern age.) The disease, filth and squalor of 19th century cities were largely what created the demand for the "suburb": they were considered a healthful option, made possible by advances in transportation, to living in a city where coal smoke filled the air and horse poop filled the streets. Even after cities got cleaner, the assumption that cities were filthy and evil, and suburbs were clean and good, drove suburban sprawl to new extents with the introduction of the automobile and government-subsidized freeways.
We're entering an age where the demand for renewable, clean and efficient technologies in housing, transit and city building are creating business opportunities for those willing to risk it. Of course, those who made their wad building things the old way are either going to oppose such means, as anyone who is about to be technologically outpaced is likely to do, or adapt to survive.
travis bickle
Jun 19, 2007, 4:18 PM
Travis, you're wrong I'm afraid. As a republican and supporter of high-rises all over our region, I present the following as proof:
http://www.thaldenboyd.com/images/morongo.jpg
http://www.luxehotels.com/pics/1589_t.jpg
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200607/r95342_287777.jpg
This is pretty much the ONLY building taller than 12 stories anywhere between Phoenix and Los Angeles.
I'm not following ya Rivercat:shrug:
And I think that is a desert site off the I-10 in either Banning or near Palm Springs. That is connected to mountain meadow ecosystems how?
What is a Rivercat?
Jun 19, 2007, 4:28 PM
It's connected in that it has no notable adverse environmental consequences, which is what I understand your argument to be - that isolated skyscrapers are bad for the natural surroundings. Of course, if that is not your argument, please disregard my comments and simply enjoy the pictures.
travis bickle
Jun 19, 2007, 4:49 PM
(late-evening Sacramento tip: At just before sundown, go hang out in the alley between the Crest Theater and the Copenhagen Building. When the sun goes down, a giant swarm of bats flies out of the Copenhagen's attic. It's most dramatic, if you're into swarms of flying rodents.)
Good God Wburg... who doesn't love flying rodents? Next time I'm in town... I'm in! Hey perhaps you could organize a walking tour of historical Sacramento for some of us here on the board. Your knowledge of our town's history seems unparalleled, and I know I'd really enjoy it.
What'd'ya say?
'm sorry if my Dubya/Saca comment started a politics flamewar. Don't sweat it. I meant my reply in the same playful spirit with which you posted. If some want to get bent and call me an idiot... that's their problem.
The disease, filth and squalor of 19th century cities were largely what created the demand for the "suburb": they were considered a healthful option, made possible by advances in transportation, to living in a city where coal smoke filled the air and horse poop filled the streets. Even after cities got cleaner, the assumption that cities were filthy and evil.
I recently finished 'The Devil in the White City" which is, in part, about the Chicago World's fair. It addresses what a cesspool the Chicago of that period was and what some of the country's greatest minds thought an ideal city should be. The contrasts are facinating.
We're entering an age where the demand for renewable, clean and efficient technologies in housing, transit and city building are creating business opportunities for those willing to risk it.
And, as usual, the private sector will deliver the means to satisfy that demand far more quickly, cheaply and efficiently than any government program could ever hope to.
Of course, those who made their wad building things the old way are either going to oppose such means, as anyone who is about to be technologically outpaced is likely to do, or adapt to survive.
You are dead-on here (so to speak). Adapt or die. We are in a transition toward a more sustainable society (except for certain casinos of course) and I truly believe most people want to live that way. Having Sacramento begin to hit its stride during this more aware period bodes well for its future. The striving for more sustainability is part of what makes this period so thrilling for planners and developers.
travis bickle
Jun 19, 2007, 5:02 PM
It's connected in that it has no notable adverse environmental consequences, which is what I understand your argument to be - that isolated skyscrapers are bad for the natural surroundings. Of course, if that is not your argument, please disregard my comments and simply enjoy the pictures.
Well, I have driven by that project on occasion and first we should note it is a desert location with nearby major freeway access so that alone makes comparisons to a pristine meadow in a grasslands/mountain environment suspect at best. Secondly, I would suggest that there are severe and unmitigated issues regarding greatly increased traffic (and all the carbon increasing gasses it brings with it). Acres of asphalt which increases the local temp while paving over precious desert land, and I would expect severe storm drain run-off issues that dump tons of pollutants into the surrounding eco system. Hey, if you know more about this project and all of these issues (and others) are unquestionably addressed to everyone’s satisfaction - then I’m wrong.
But a 23 storey tower in a previously unspoiled meadow I'm not wrong about.
And most people here know it, but their hatred or greed get in the way.
wburg
Jun 19, 2007, 5:13 PM
travis: I'm sure we can figure out something. I do know a couple of Downtown Guides who do downtown history tours that are pretty spiff.
I read "Devil in the White City" too and kind of got a different message from it--more along the lines of how the World's Fair started the "City Beautiful" movement, which, over the next half-century or so, displaced a lot of people and destroyed a lot of neighborhoods in order to create grand plazas at public expense, while ignoring or avoiding the actual social problems in cities. The disconnects between what "great minds" thought cities should be, and what people who lived in cities actually thought about the places where they lived, resulted in some serious injustices.
Without throwing things too far athwart, the private sector tends to benefit most from technological innovations that received massive government subsidy for decades (assorted spin-off technology from military, space program, and other pure-research spending.) The free market can do a lot, but it can't do it all.
My own bit of optimism is a part of that current trend: Sacramento is finally shaking off its small-city mindset and realizing that its history is valuable, worthwhile--and marketable. There's a growing body of work to support historic preservation and high-tech, ecologically sound development as mutually supporting and concurrent trends.
travis bickle
Jun 19, 2007, 5:28 PM
I read "Devil in the White City" too and kind of got a different message from it--more along the lines of how the World's Fair started the "City Beautiful" movement, which, over the next half-century or so, displaced a lot of people and destroyed a lot of neighborhoods in order to create grand plazas at public expense, while ignoring or avoiding the actual social problems in cities. The disconnects between what "great minds" thought cities should be, and what people who lived in cities actually thought about the places where they lived, resulted in some serious injustices.
I think we got the same message, I just wasn't as articulate as I'd have liked. I compare the damage done by builders and planners of that era, after seeing a make-believe dream city - to today's planners who fall in love with their colored pens and site plans but are not as concerned with how the project or community actually "lives." Those contrasts and how those great and well-intentioned minds addressed them was the point I was trying to make.
Without throwing things too far athwart, the private sector tends to benefit most from technological innovations that received massive government subsidy for decades (assorted spin-off technology from military, space program, and other pure-research spending.) The free market can do a lot, but it can't do it all.
Obviously I don't agree with that statement in toto, but I do agree that the private sector can't do it all.
Sacramento is finally shaking off its small-city mindset and realizing that its history is valuable, worthwhile--and marketable.
This is a nexus that has repeatedly proven successful. It's thrilling to see Sacramento begin to embrace it outside of Old Sac.
econgrad
Jun 19, 2007, 7:26 PM
^^
I see others complaining about the above dialogues, I for one thought it was interesting. I believe the Indian Casino's should have been located in more of an urban area like downtown instead of outlying undeveloped areas. That hotel would sure be nice near the Sacramento river in west Sacramento.
innov8
Jun 19, 2007, 8:21 PM
No, the dialog that was going to run this thread into the ground was the
Democrat vs. Republican political crap. There’s a whole other forum made
just for that kind of debate right here: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=30&f=14
jsf8278
Jun 20, 2007, 2:48 AM
The building on the far left foreground... that really beautiful one with the strange brown blocks.
That was actually a 70s redesign by Ed Kado, Ziggurat and 621 Capitol Mall (Parthenon version and present) architect.
So as you can see, Kado is no stranger to hideous design.
Regarding some of the Saca comments, I just hope he doesn't go all "Clinton" on us, and try to force something down our throats...
or go all "Kerry" on us, and shoot himself in the ass again (although the purple heart does look nice next to his wife's millions),...
or go all "Reid" on us and declare the battle lost before he even has all of his forces on the ground...
or go all "Murtha" on us and accept bribes for services rendered (or merely promised)...
or go all "Pelosi" on us and accomplish absolutely nothing since seizing power...
Hey, comparing political hypocrisy and futility to a local developer is easy and fun.
Thanks for introducing the game to us guys!:D
As a disgruntled Democrat, I found that to be pretty damn funny; quite witty you are.
Phillip
Jun 20, 2007, 7:09 AM
Well, I have driven by that project on occasion and first we should note it is a desert location with nearby major freeway access so that alone makes comparisons to a pristine meadow in a grasslands/mountain environment suspect at best.Have Roseville Galleria and Thunder Valley Casino really gone back to pristine meadow? I really need to get up there soon and check out the changes.
To my mind the difference between the Cabazon casino/hotel and the one proposed in Roseville is that Cabazon is next to an outlet mall while Roseville's mall is full priced.
Cynikal
Jun 20, 2007, 6:29 PM
Good God Wburg... who doesn't love flying rodents? Next time I'm in town... I'm in! Hey perhaps you could organize a walking tour of historical Sacramento for some of us here on the board. Your knowledge of our town's history seems unparalleled, and I know I'd really enjoy it.
What'd'ya say?
I would be in to this if some materializes.
If you are into walking tours, the Urban Design Alliance is giving a walking tour of Oak Park Thursday (21st) evening from 6-7:30. The tour will be lead by Prof. Robin Datel of Sac State's geography dept.
greenmidtown
Jun 20, 2007, 6:50 PM
Regarding some of the Saca comments, I just hope he doesn't go all "Clinton" on us, and try to force something down our throats...
or go all "Kerry" on us, and shoot himself in the ass again (although the purple heart does look nice next to his wife's millions),...
or go all "Reid" on us and declare the battle lost before he even has all of his forces on the ground...
or go all "Murtha" on us and accept bribes for services rendered (or merely promised)...
or go all "Pelosi" on us and accomplish absolutely nothing since seizing power...
granted democrats are hypocrites but to type out such a long thought-out response out of offense from a slight comment targeting our incompetent War Criminal in Chief shows how pathetic you are. you're not even from here. keep your political commentary to yourself next time because after 7 years of Bush bullshit nobody is going to let an asinine Republican hit-job go unanswered.
travis bickle
Jun 20, 2007, 6:54 PM
granted democrats are hypocrites but to type out such a long thought-out response out of offense from a slight comment targeting our incompetent War Criminal in Chief shows how pathetic you are. you're not even from here. keep your political commentary to yourself next time because after 7 years of Bush bullshit nobody is going to let an asinine Republican hit-job go unanswered.
Ah yes... the tolerant left at their finest. Oh, and BTW - took me about a minute for that. All you have to do is be informed. You ought to try it sometime...
wburg
Jun 20, 2007, 7:28 PM
I would be in to this if some materializes.
If you are into walking tours, the Urban Design Alliance is giving a walking tour of Oak Park Thursday (21st) evening from 6-7:30. The tour will be lead by Prof. Robin Datel of Sac State's geography dept.
Where are they going to meet for this tour?
greenmidtown
Jun 20, 2007, 7:31 PM
Ah yes... the tolerant left at their finest. Oh, and BTW - took me about a minute for that. All you have to do is be informed. You ought to try it sometime...
I wouldn't be surprised if you just copied and pasted lines from a Republican blog. and you think you're informed? delusion at its finest. 3500 dead americans, over 25,000 wounded, over 300 billion dollars of our money spent and you still can't give us a good reason why. the burden of proof is on you so shoot. why should we stay in iraq and allow more americans and iraqi civilians to die? I don't care how witty your ad hominem attacks are I want to know why chicken-hawks like you think Americans should continue to die for nothing?
travis bickle
Jun 20, 2007, 7:39 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if you just copied and pasted lines from a Republican blog. and you think you're informed? delusion at its finest. 3500 dead americans, over 25,000 wounded, over 300 billion dollars of our money spent and you still can't give us a good reason why. the burden of proof is on you so shoot. why should we stay in iraq and allow more americans and iraqi civilians to die? I don't care how witty your ad hominem attacks are I want to know why chicken-hawks like you think Americans should continue to die for nothing?
This is not the place for this type of mindless ranting. You can PM me or, better yet, just run along like a good little buffoon.
BTW - I was born in Roseville. That makes you "0" for "2." A ratio I'm sure you're used to.
cozmoose
Jun 20, 2007, 7:43 PM
Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has no heart; and
any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains
- Winston Churchhill
wburg
Jun 20, 2007, 7:56 PM
Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has no heart; and
any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains
- Winston Churchhill
um, actually, no:
http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=112
"If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain." There is no record of anyone hearing Churchill say this. Paul Addison of Edinburgh University makes this comment: "Surely Churchill can't have used the words attributed to him. He'd been a Conservative at 15 and a Liberal at 35! And would he have talked so disrespectfully of Clemmie, who is generally thought to have been a lifelong Liberal?"
SacTownAndy
Jun 20, 2007, 8:20 PM
KCRA is running a story today on their main page about the Metropolitan. Nothing new, but at least it's making news.
Saca Planning New Condo Project
Developer Earlier Failed With Towers Development
POSTED: 5:58 am PDT June 20, 2007
UPDATED: 7:05 am PDT June 20, 2007
SACRAMENTO, Calif. -- Developer John Saca is aggressively moving forward with a new plan for a high-rise condominium project in downtown Sacramento a week after walking away from another stalled hotel and residential skyscraper project.
Saca's new project is called The Metropolitan, a 40-story building that may include 200 luxury condos at the corner of 10th and J streets just across from Cesar Chavez Plaza.
Last week, the California Public Employees' Retirement System agreed to buy Saca's share of The Towers on Capitol Mall project at the corner of Capitol Mall and Third Street that saw construction shut down late last year.
Saca estimated that The Metropolitan project will cost as much as $200 million, far less than the $500 million to $600 million price tag estimated for The Towers.
The Metropolitan proposal will go before the city's design commission today. Despite the setback Saca experienced with The Towers, he said he still believes there is a big demand for condos in the downtown area.
CalPERS said CIM Group of Los Angeles will serve as lead developer of The Towers project, which will likely look much different from the 54-story condominium, hotel and retail complex Saca planned.
Saca blamed skyrocketing construction costs and a downturn in the real estate market for the demise of The Towers project. He added that he lost a "tremendous amount of money" in the early stages of the development of that project.
There's also a video on the story's page:
http://www.kcra.com/news/13535180/detail.html
greenmidtown
Jun 20, 2007, 8:26 PM
This is not the place for this type of mindless ranting. You can PM me or, better yet, just run along like a good little buffoon.
BTW - I was born in Roseville. That makes you "0" for "2." A ratio I'm sure you're used to.
you brought this to yourself by running your mouth defending a buffoon. I don't blame you considering you were born in an uber-conservative wasteland back when it was a hillbilly railroad stop. and you still haven't answered my question. pm me with your "facts." Faux News and all the idiot demagogues on right-wing radio don't count as legitimate sources either, sorry. I guess that kills any baseless justification of the war you might have had.
slaiguy
Jun 20, 2007, 8:30 PM
After seeing what happened with Saca, I think maybe he should have gone with the Metropolitan first then for the Towers. Nothing against the Towers, I am sad to see that it won't happen the way he envisioned, but maybe he should have gone with the easier one, if there is such a thing, first. I hope this one gets off the ground.
TowerDistrict
Jun 20, 2007, 8:36 PM
You may be right about the actual product being more feasible - but I think the Metro didn't come into light until about a year after the Towers was announced. I would guess that he had so much positive feedback on the Towers, that he decided to try the middle-up market?
wburg
Jun 20, 2007, 8:50 PM
Was the plan always for 40 stories, or is this a new iteration of the building slated for that corner?
travis bickle
Jun 20, 2007, 9:01 PM
You may be right about the actual product being more feasible - but I think the Metro didn't come into light until about a year after the Towers was announced. I would guess that he had so much positive feedback on the Towers, that he decided to try the middle-up market?
You know... it's very difficult to make middle-market/high-rise work. Construction and development costs are so expensive, you almost have to go luxury.
I can't commend Saca enough for his effort, but I'll be very interested to see how he makes this work.
innov8
Jun 20, 2007, 10:38 PM
300 Capitol Mall sold for $130M
By Michael Shaw of The Sacramento Business Journal
June 20, 2007
Four months after it was put up for sale, the 18-story Emerald Tower office building at 300 Capitol Mall has sold for $130 million to a joint venture between Sterling American Property Inc., of New York City, and Hines Interests of Houston.
The $339-per-square-foot price is at or above expectations from commercial brokers for downtown Sacramento space. In February, predictions suggested the building could fetch $115 million or more.
The transaction represents Hines' continued interest in Sacramento's Class A office space, after affiliates of Hines purchased an entire portfolio of buildings earlier this year from The Blackstone Group for $760 million.
The Emerald Tower was acquired for $76 million in 1999 by VV City USA LP, a subsidiary of a private German bank. It was built in 1984 as one of the Capital's first premier office towers. It is 80-percent leased by the State of California. The largest tenants include the State Comptrollers Office and the Department of Insurance. Overall, the building is 98-percent leased.
fflint
Jun 21, 2007, 3:26 AM
For the millionth time, do not spam the Sacramento construction threads with political arguments and ad hominem attacks.
Next one to break that rule gets suspended for a month, minimum.
downtownserg89
Jun 21, 2007, 3:57 AM
ah, i miss reading this forum everyday! every since i got a virus at my home computer and cant get online anymore from there, i've been a stranger to the internet.
anywho, i'm going on a sac photo sesh tomorrow to show y'all i still love my forum.
oh and i'm 18 now!! june 11th baby!:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:
BrianSac
Jun 21, 2007, 6:33 AM
ah, i miss reading this forum everyday! every since i got a virus at my home computer and cant get online anymore from there, i've been a stranger to the internet.
anywho, i'm going on a sac photo sesh tomorrow to show y'all i still love my forum.
oh and i'm 18 now!! june 11th baby!:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:
Happy Belated Birthday, Sergie
Did you blow out all 18 of your candles? :banaride:
goldcntry
Jun 21, 2007, 1:57 PM
Happy B-Day Serg! Only Three more years before you can buy us all a round!
:tomato: :tomato: :tomato:
Cynikal
Jun 21, 2007, 4:55 PM
Where are they going to meet for this tour?
Sorry for the late response. The tour will meet at Underground Books @ 6:00.
snfenoc
Jun 21, 2007, 7:29 PM
KCRA.com
Saca's New Condo Project Moves Forward
Metropolitan Faces Public Hearing
POSTED: 9:14 pm PDT June 20, 2007
UPDATED: 9:40 pm PDT June 20, 2007
SACRAMENTO, Calif. -- Developer John Saca's new luxury condo project moved forward after the Sacramento City Council reviewed design and material specifications Wednesday night, officials said.
Saca's new project is called The Metropolitan, a 40-story building with 200 luxury condos, and could be built at the corner of 10th and J streets.
Saca estimated that The Metropolitan project will cost as much as $200 million, far less than the $500 million to $600 million price tag estimated for The Towers.
Last week, the California Public Employees' Retirement System agreed to buy Saca's share of The Towers on Capitol Mall project at the corner of Capitol Mall and Third Street that saw construction shut down late last year.
Despite the setback Saca experienced with The Towers, he said he still believes there is a big demand for condos in the downtown area.
The Metropolitan proposal now goes before the city's planning commission for possible approval by July 26.
The city's design commission will conduct a public hearing on the project Aug. 15.
fatchocolatecow
Jun 21, 2007, 7:51 PM
Excellent reporting by another of Sacramento's top-notch media outlets (although I think KCRA usually does a decent job). The Metropolitan actually went before the Design Review Committee last night, not the City Council. It received mixed reviews and will have to return to Design Review again. Comments ranged from (these are not quotes, but summations)... it is a beautiful building with strong features, to... this design belongs on Lakeshore Drive in the 60's, but there is nothing original about it now. They also seemed concerned that the architecture too closely resembles that of Cathedral Square which is being proposed only 2 blocks away.
sugit
Jun 21, 2007, 8:18 PM
They also seemed concerned that the architecture too closely resembles that of Cathedral Square which is being proposed only 2 blocks away.
I've always thought the same thing as well, but I think they both look good (other than a couple small changes I would make at the ground level to C Sqaure), so I don't find it a problem. Kwan Henmi is the architect for both so that explains a lot.
TowerDistrict
Jun 21, 2007, 8:32 PM
I've always thought the same thing as well, but I think they both look good, so I don't find it a problem. Kwan Henmi is the architect for both so that explains a lot.
Yeah... and they might as well revisit 800 K at the same time. Because they are going to say the exact same things about that project as well.
If Cathedral, Metro and 800 K all went up right now it Portland or Vancouver, noone would say anything negative (or constructively criticize). But I think Kwan Henmi might want to walk around Sacramento for a week, and revise the street level plans a bit.
wburg
Jun 21, 2007, 9:48 PM
Walking around Sacramento at street level sounds like damn good advice for any architect who wants to build something here...even "your architect."
TowerDistrict
Jun 21, 2007, 10:20 PM
In my opinion, Libeskind's design is so beyond conventional that it stands on its own. A certain level of innovation in architecture can contrst to it's surroundings and ultimately compliment the city. The problem with certain other modern architecture, is that it's not bold enough to feel inspiring, or refined enough to feel welcome.
Also Aura has the... ummm... benefit(?) of being sandwiched between 621's garage, 555's parking and Downtown Plaza. If Libeskind designed a tower made of lincoln logs it would improve the streetscape right there.
innov8
Jun 21, 2007, 10:32 PM
From the Design Review Staff report:
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/2428/metrojbluedd0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/8277/metroj10ki7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/6538/metrojwesttz1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/9659/metrojwestelvlg5.jpg
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/1743/metrojwy4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/430/metrojnightqy8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.