Calgary Roads

[M II A II R II K]

Thread to talk about Calgary roads.

[feepa]

The deerfoot is always clogged and congested.

[Riise]

The deerfoot is always clogged and congested.

Is is better or worse than Deerfoot?

[frinkprof]

Nevermind.

[freeweed]

You guys allergic to the word "Trail"?

[frinkprof]

Nevermind.

[KrisYYC]

Nice to see a thread about roads!

-Does anybody know why Northbound Deerfoot speed limit slows down to 80km/h right after the Calf Robe bridge? I know there was roadworks being done there a while back but I haven't seen any work being done for months.

-Elbow drive desperately needs to be repaved
-McKnight Blvd desperately needs to be repaved

-Where do you think the next big interchange project will be? (Exlcluding the Ring Road) I'd say MacLeod and Heritage Dr.

-Why are Calgary traffic engineers so in love with traffic lights and 4 way stops? Especially traffic lights at "interchanges". Defeats the whole purpose.

-I'd like to see some tinkering with the traffic light programming and synchronization to help traffic flow. Some of the lights are ridiculous. If you do the speed limit on MacLeod you'll hit nearly every damn red light. Go 20km/h over the limit and it's smooth sailing.

/rant

[freeweed]

^Well I was poking fun at the use of the colloquialism "the Deerfoot."

But then you have to be consistent. No one likes a half-ass pedant. :P

[feepa]

Comedy knows no ends here folks... Lighten up a bit Riise

[srperrycgy]

Now that the ground is starting to thaw, potholes are beginning to apppear in a few places. This beauty at 23rd Ave @ 31st ST SW was created by the City when they did some work in the winter. Now that it's warmer, it has sunk about a foot.

http://members.shaw.ca/steve.perry/Big Pothole.jpg

[KrisYYC]

Now that the ground is starting to thaw, potholes are beginning to apppear in a few places. This beauty at 23rd Ave @ 31st ST SW was created by the City when they did some work in the winter. Now that it's warmer, it has sunk about a foot.

http://members.shaw.ca/steve.perry/Big Pothole.jpg



Jeeeeesus.

There's one pothole on McKnight that the city keeps repaving over and over. They'll fix it and literally 3 days later it's back again. I think the high amount of heavy truck traffic doesn't help.

[frinkprof]

Nevermind.

[mersar]

Yeah, this winter has been really bad for potholes. The city has been pretty good about fixing the ones on Crowchild, but the ones I've learned to keep on eye are are the ones in parking lots. Coming out the north end of Market Mall theres a huge one, and theres another in the west lot at McMahon thats nearly the width of my car now and getting worse. Out in Cochrane a lot of the roads are badly damaged, the town for the past decade has been taking the easy way out of fixing issues by just tarring over the cracks to the extent that in soem places the strip of tar is 2+ feet wide, and this winter the pavement has just fallen apart. Theres one stretch down from my house that is almost like driving on a gravel road now, fortunately I believe its on the 'to be repaved' list for this year anyways.

[The Chemist]

When is the Glenmore/Deerfoot interchange scheduled for rebuilding? It, like pretty much every other interchange on Deerfoot, is a total disaster.

[mersar]

Glenmore@Deerfoot and Glenmore@Blackfoot are being redone at the same time, they've done some initial study of it but not much further.

[Riise]

-Why are Calgary traffic engineers so in love with traffic lights and 4 way stops? Especially traffic lights at "interchanges". Defeats the whole purpose.


I'd love to see the Roads Department develop some sort of procedure to determine the feasibility of installing roundabouts/traffic-circles.



Comedy knows no ends here folks... Lighten up a bit Riise

I was just poking fun of your use of the word "the". I find it funny when people call it "The Deerfoot".

[Koolfire]

I'd love to see the Roads Department develop some sort of procedure to determine the feasibility of installing roundabouts/traffic-circles.

I wonder how practical it would be to convert 16th Ave and Deerfoot interchange to a hybrid roundabout? If you had a 4 lane East-West flyover and then reconfigured the lanes on the bridges it might work. And it would be pretty cheap as there wouldn't be much earth moving and the elevations on each side would work to your advantage.

[MichaelS]

I'd love to see the Roads Department develop some sort of procedure to determine the feasibility of installing roundabouts/traffic-circles.


I think this is being looked at, although more by Transportation Planning than by Roads I believe. Roundabouts are great for moving traffic at low volume intersections, however if the degree of saturation rises above 0.85, they basically fall over (metaphorically, or course). So they would be a good thing at smaller, neighbourhood intersections instead of a set of lights. But you will never see a roundabout replace something like MacLeod and Anderson.

[Riise]

I wonder how practical it would be to convert 16th Ave and Deerfoot interchange to a hybrid roundabout? If you had a 4 lane East-West flyover and then reconfigured the lanes on the bridges it might work. And it would be pretty cheap as there wouldn't be much earth moving and the elevations on each side would work to your advantage.

I saw an intersection similar to this in Spain but I can't remember where it was exactly. I've been searching the Costa Del Sol area in Google Earth in an attempt to get an image but haven't had any success.



So they would be a good thing at smaller, neighbourhood intersections instead of a set of lights. But you will never see a roundabout replace something like MacLeod and Anderson.

Oh yeah, of course. I was thinking about situations like 4-way stops and non-regulated intersections in rez neighbourhoods, as well as, smaller yet busy intersections in other areas. However, seeing a roundabout with lights being placed at a major intersection would be interesting.

[MichaelS]

There is a roundabout with lights at all 4 entrances here in Brisbane. It is on a pretty major roadway that leads to the airport, and is also part of the interchange to the major N-S highway here in Queensland. It is terrible, with massive queues and delays in peak hour. They are spending hundreds of millions of dollars in upgrading it to a multi-level flyover or something (haven't seen the final design).

It is kind of odd that Brisbane seems to be moving in the opposite of Calgary. Here, I get many calls from residents (I work for the Department of Main Roads) wanting to have roundabouts removed and replaced with signalized intersections.

[KrisYYC]

Obviously some intersections are probably too big for roundabouts, many on the smaller streets would be good candidates. Hell just about every 4 way stop should be one unless it's right by a school where a lot of kids are crossing.

[freeweed]

Obviously some intersections are probably too big for roundabouts, many on the smaller streets would be good candidates. Hell just about every 4 way stop should be one unless it's right by a school where a lot of kids are crossing.

Or a playground. Or a senior's home. Or somewhere else where some grieving family has been on TV, crying "if it will only save one life...".

In other words, 95% of Calgary.

It's really a shame, too - traffic circles rock in low volume areas. Too bad no one knows how to drive them here. Yes, I'm looking at you, McKenzie "town".

[You Need A Thneed]

Or a playground. Or a senior's home. Or somewhere else where some grieving family has been on TV, crying "if it will only save one life...".

In other words, 95% of Calgary.

It's really a shame, too - traffic circles rock in low volume areas. Too bad no one knows how to drive them here. Yes, I'm looking at you, McKenzie "town".

Traffic circles are remarkably easy when they are only one lane. Replacing 4 way stops with mini roundabouts makes way too much sense.

[Bigtime]

I'd love to see the mini roundabouts replace 4 way stops in Calgary. Heck it seems like most motorists don't even know the proper rules for a 4 way stop anymore. Then again that could make a traffic circle a complete disaster!

[reflexzero]

Speaking of potholes, there is one that runs along 52nd St NE from McKnight Blvd to 16th Ave.

There was also a sinkhole opening up near a drain on my street. They plugged it up, but it's eroding from underneath, not as a result of frost damage. Just waiting for someone to lose a vehicle in there now.

[mersar]

I'd love to see the mini roundabouts replace 4 way stops in Calgary. Heck it seems like most motorists don't even know the proper rules for a 4 way stop anymore. Then again that could make a traffic circle a complete disaster!

Yep. You should see some of the idiots I've seen using the new traffic circle in Crowfoot... it got to the point the city put barricades with arrows on them so people wouldn't try to go around it the wrong direction (I saw numerous people do that if they were going south on Crowfoot Circle).

[Oliver Klozov]

There is a roundabout with lights at all 4 entrances here in Brisbane. ......
It is kind of odd that Brisbane seems to be moving in the opposite of Calgary. Here, I get many calls from residents (I work for the Department of Main Roads) wanting to have roundabouts removed and replaced with signalized intersections.

There is one in Alberta - 118 Ave & St Albert Road/Groat Road in Edmonton. It works quite well and was a big improvement over the regular traffic circle it replaced.

Traffic circles (politically correct term: round-abouts) do indeed work well in lower traffic volume situations. They break down on major roads when there is an imbalance in inflow. One entrance seems to get unrestricted access and constant flow. If the next entrance counterclockwise also has high volume, they get fewer chances to get in the circle and that traffic backs up. That's what happened to many of the old circles in Edmonton.

[DizzyEdge]

http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Alberta/2009/04/09/9062146-sun.html

More bad news for 16 Ave.
UPDATED: 2009-04-09 02:54:57 MST

Construction-weary business owners brace for eight weeks of lane closures

By JENNA MCMURRAY, SUN MEDIA

Shop owners along the 16 Ave. corridor, already frustrated by decrease in business due to construction, are bracing for more headaches.

Starting Monday, there will be eight weeks worth of lane closures along 16 Ave. N.W. as part of the North Urban Corridor Project and businesses located on the traffic artery say they've already lost too many customers since the project began in July 2005.

"We don't get the drive-by traffic we used to and our sales have dropped 20% to 30%," said Stuart McAllister, owner of the Cat 'n' Fiddle pub, which has been located at 540 16 Ave. N.W. for 15 years.

"We'll never get that back I don't think. The damage is already done."

Forecasting the drop in sales for businesses due to limited access from the construction, the city launched the Wide Open campaign in 2007 -- a two-phase promotional initiative including flags reading "16th Ave. Shops Are Open For Business."

"We wanted to raise awareness that the businesses were open during construction," said Jennifer De Vries of Transportation Infrastructure at the city. "It's aimed at getting motorists to stop."

But Cameron Treleaven, owner of Aquila Books, located at 826 16 Ave. N.W. for 18 years, said the campaign has done nothing.

"It's an absolute waste of money and I've complained on so many levels, but there's nothing I can do," he said.

"I've had so many customers say, 'I don't come because I don't know how to get there.'

"We will not make up what we've lost."

The $89-million project will wrap up this year. Land acquisition problems made it impossible for the city to meet its original 2008 deadline, said De Vries.

[Stang]

Or a playground. Or a senior's home. Or somewhere else where some grieving family has been on TV, crying "if it will only save one life...".

In other words, 95% of Calgary.

It's really a shame, too - traffic circles rock in low volume areas. Too bad no one knows how to drive them here. Yes, I'm looking at you, McKenzie "town".

Even the sign leading up to it has the "break" on the wrong side... it should break after the last exit, not before the first!

I have always been a fan of roundabouts. They're not useful for all intersections, and sometimes the English go a bit overboard, but there are lots of places where they are a better alternative than stop signs or signals.

In the UK (where I rented a car a few weeks back) they have roundabouts spanning the motorway with two bridges, forming a massive roundabout. Probably overkill. :)

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=london,+uk&sll=51.04424,-114.050035&sspn=0.006192,0.013819&ie=UTF8&ll=51.871179,0.199771&spn=0.006081,0.013819&t=h&z=16

They also have miniature ones that are simply a circle painted on the road with some arrows. You don't actually have to go around them fully - the markings are just there to explain that the roundabout right-of-way rules apply (yield to the car on your right). Think of it as a 3 or 4-way yield as opposed to a full-stop.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=school+road,+drayton,+norfolk,+uk&sll=51.871179,0.199771&sspn=0.006081,0.013819&ie=UTF8&ll=52.677558,1.225356&spn=0.000746,0.001727&t=k&z=19

So why are roundabouts so difficult for the average Calgarian? They're basically a yield. If they're two lanes, you just need to pick the correct lane.

[DizzyEdge]

Yeah particularly single lane ones are pretty easy, as you said they're essentially one way streets with a yield sign.

[MasterG]

so whats the deal with stoney trail? Are they planning on extending it from 16th ave NW up the hill any time soon?

Getting off the hill is a pain with only 17th ave and bow trail to take all the traffic, that stoney trail project would be really helpful.

[mersar]

so whats the deal with stoney trail? Are they planning on extending it from 16th ave NW up the hill any time soon?

Getting off the hill is a pain with only 17th ave and bow trail to take all the traffic, that stoney trail project would be really helpful.

They've drawn up the plans (http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/sthwy8-gp.htm), but the extension from 16th Ave to Highway 8 is most likely only going to be built once the part through the T'suu Tina land is started on. The plan involves pretty much making a huge cut into the side of the hill (taking off a couple hundred feet at the deepest part but getting back to the level of the top by the time it hits Old Banff Coach Road) to make the grade suitable, then building a couple interchanges of varying sizes along the way to where 201/8 meet just east of the Elbow river crossing on 8.

[korzym]

Now that the ground is starting to thaw, potholes are beginning to apppear in a few places. This beauty at 23rd Ave @ 31st ST SW was created by the City when they did some work in the winter. Now that it's warmer, it has sunk about a foot.

http://members.shaw.ca/steve.perry/Big Pothole.jpg

There's a nice on at the base of the stampede lrt west stairwell, very similar. It's probably 3 times deeper than the one in your pic, this is no exaggeration. It has 4 road markers around it, a bunch of pylons. If you were to put the same warning post in the middle, it probably would just barely stick out.

[lubicon]

Memorial Drive project to test vehicle-free Sundays


Last Updated: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 | 9:20 AM MT CBC News

Ald. Druh Farrell wants to test closing several blocks of Memorial Drive to vehicles to create a promenade for pedestrians and cyclists. Pedestrians and cyclists will have free reign over Memorial Drive on Sundays if a Calgary alderman's test project to turn part of the street into a promenade works out, CBC News has learned.

Ald. Druh Farrell, whose ward includes Hillhurst-Sunnyside, is proposing to close the two lanes of Memorial Drive from 10th Street N.W. to the curling club on 3rd Street on Sundays in August.

The other two lanes of Memorial Drive would be turned into two-way traffic for vehicles

"It's getting people active. We have a very successful pathway system. It's giving people a little bit more room in an urban area," Farrell told CBC News. "It's taking back the street for one day a week in the summer."

Details still need to be ironed out, but the pilot project will likely happen over a few Sundays in August, she said.

"We're choosing low traffic days, and certainly Sundays — it's a day where people like to get out and recreate — and this an area that needs a little bit more space for that."

Businesses, community welcome idea
Citing successful pedestrian projects on busy streets in Ottawa, New York City and Europe, Farrell said she envisions people enjoying the waterfront on foot, bicycle, and in-line skates.

Annie MacInnis, executive director of the Kensington Business Revitalization Zone, which represents businesses in the district, hopes people taking advantage of the promenade will stop by stores and restaurants in the area.

"We're thrilled that the city is thinking of ways to help these small shopping districts thrive in these hard times," she said.

The Hillhurst Sunnyside Community Association welcomed the idea that would open access to the river.

"Making that a central hub if the right of way were to be … across Hillhurst-Sunnyside would be a great opportunity to draw people in," said David White, chair of group's planning committee.

If successful, the promenade could be expanded into Bridgeland and Chinatown, said Farrell.

"Because of the improvements we're doing on Memorial Drive and it's looking very nice, it just made a perfect fit," she said. "It will be a lot of fun."

[Bigtime]

It should be a very interesting experiment, and the pathways in that area get congested to the point of being dangerous anyways.

[lubicon]

I drove Memorial on Sunday night and was really impressed with the new streetscaping they have done. The new light standards look pretty nice by themselves, but the blue LED lighting along the top makes them look even better in the dark. The banners hanging from each one are a nice touch, with poppies as the main feature on them. It should look even better in the summer when the trees have leafed out and they have planted flowers or whatever in the median.

I'm a little undecided on the closing of half the road, but I rarely travel that road on Sunday afternoons so maybe it won't be too bad.

[reflexzero]

So, is there still going to be a speed limit of 20 kph on this Memorial promenade wonder-project?

[frinkprof]

Nevermind.

[DizzyEdge]

Or a playground. Or a senior's home. Or somewhere else where some grieving family has been on TV, crying "if it will only save one life...".

In other words, 95% of Calgary.

It's really a shame, too - traffic circles rock in low volume areas. Too bad no one knows how to drive them here. Yes, I'm looking at you, McKenzie "town".

Also some city workers don't seem to know how they work, a while back in my 'hood the city needed to block access to one road off a roundabout, and they choose the 2nd method instead of the 1st one:

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/1277/circle.jpg

[Stang]

[B]Memorial Drive project to test vehicle-free Sundays

I'd be willing to give it a look, however I think that there would need to be more of a draw than just a big stretch of pavement to wander on. Street musicians, market stands, etc. would be kind of neat.

When I was in Frankfurt a few weeks ago they had a street right in the core that was shut down on Friday night and market (mostly food) merchants were opening up - presumably for the weekend. Probably hundreds of merchants, all in trailers, etc. It was definitely a city-sanctioned thing as the electrical and water lines were neatly covered and everything was well organized. Lots of people snouting around too.

Not saying we should try and over-do it, but a few things to keep people's interest would make be good.

[canlefty]

^ There's really nothing along that bit or memorial drive... if the almighty Druh wants to do something, how about shutting down Kensington road like stephen ave... at least there is street level amenities for people to actually go there for.... but hey, I guess a stroll along a divided 4 lane road with an adjacent existing pathway system sounds great!!!! :worship: Druh :worship:

[MichaelS]

^ I have to agree with this. Unless they are going to put on a market or something else, what is the point of closing down half of Memorial to pedestrians? Kensington Road would be a much better choice.

[Bigtime]

Calgary merchants leery of limiting cars on Memorial Drive
Proposal aimed at luring walkers and cyclists

By Eva Ferguson, Calgary HeraldApril 15, 2009 7:13 AM

Businesses are worried about a city-driven proposal to shut down a portion of Memorial Drive this summer to encourage more cycling and pedestrian traffic along the river.

Already struggling with a downturn in the economy and rising rents and taxes, businesses say restricting vehicles on one of their busiest days will be another tough blow to revenue.

"What a ridiculous idea," said Shauna-Lee Gunn, owner of Body Inc.,a tattoo and body piercing salon on 10th Street N. W.

"Where do they come up with these things? It's a huge concern if they're going to reduce access to the stores along here."

Ald. Druh Farrell said she will push ahead with a plan to turn a portion of Memorial Drive into a promenade. The two lanes closest to the river between 10th Street N. W. and the Calgary Curling Club, situated by the pedestrian bridge to Prince's Island, would be closed to traffic on Sundays in August in an effort to give bikes, joggers and pedestrians more room. The other two lanes would be open to two-way traffic.

But Gunn said traffic is busy along Memorial Drive on weekends, so closing off two of the four lanes will cause severe traffic jams and prevent drivers from visiting businesses.

"This is really going to hurt our business. It's going to hurt a lot of businesses at a time when things are already very tough."

Gunn added many of her neighbours, like her, are struggling with higher rents, while others are having a tough time with business tax increases.

John Wilkinson, owner of Kismet Ladieswear in Kensington, said cyclists and pedestrians already have plenty of room with two divided pathways and a large green space along Memorial Drive, east of 10th Street N. W.

"I don't really see people rushing down to Kensington now, just because they can walk down the middle of Memorial Drive," Wilkinson said. "If there was a parade, or a special event, maybe it might bring more people. But I don't see this doing that.

"Impeding traffic flow isn't a good idea when so many businesses are already struggling just to stay alive."

But Farrell said pedestrian projects in other North American and European cities have been a success.

"It's about getting people to come out and get active. We're not reducing capacity.In fact, we're anticipating more volumes of people."

Annie MacInnis, executive director of the Kensington Business Revitalization Zone, said she's optimistic about the plan and supports encouraging more pedestrian traffic in the area.

"We're looking at ways to boost vitality in this area. And we're hoping this will be a success."

Farrell added she's not worried about impeding traffic be-cause that stretch of Memorial Drive is "a pretty sleepy road on Sundays."

The city has already had calls to expand the closure further east and west, and possibly south into Chinatown.

"We'll monitor its success and we'll re-evaluate again in September," Farrell said.

eFerguson@tHeHerald. Canwest.Com
© Copyright (c) The Calgary Herald
Link (http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/todays-paper/Merchants+leery+limiting+cars+along+Memorial+Drive/1498437/story.html)
_________________________________________________________________

A couple of thoughts, we have discussed on here how Kensington is in its situation entirely due to Kensington and Sunnyside's opposition to higher density developments. They are trying to compete with up and coming shopping/entertainment streets & avenues and have not been proactive enough to keep attracting people. So 2 of 4 lanes being closed 1 day a week for 1 month will hardly be the main cause of the business' struggles.

Personally I don't think Memorial is busy on Sundays, the only place you see any volume of traffic is waiting at the lights at Memorial and 10th street. Other than that it is smooth sailing.

Access is hardly limited, you can still always take Kensington Road, 5th Avenue, or 10th street from the north to get into the area proper.

[Stang]

Access is hardly limited, you can still always take Kensington Road, 5th Avenue, or 10th street from the north to get into the area proper.

Further to your point regarding access - getting into Kensington going Eastbound on Memorial at 10th Street is, well, difficult to impossible anyway.

I think that most people coming from the West get onto Kensington Road back near 14th or even Crowchild because you can't do it from Memorial at 10th anyway.

Like someone else mentioned here - why not do it on Kensington Road (or even 10th) to really get the community involved?

[niwell]

In Ottawa they close down half of the Ottawa River Parkway for cyclists and pedestrians on Sundays in the summer. It works quite well and is a nice change from the overcrowded bike path nearby. I'm sure people complained vehemently when it was proposed, but everyone seems to like it now. They also close down parts of the parkways flanking the rideau canal. All of these are areas with parallel bike paths and somewhat similar to Memorial.

I'd actually worry more about shutting down a street like Kensington on Sunday, where local residents and businesses may legitimately need road access.

[Bigtime]

Good to see I'm not alone in my thinking. Unfortunately the business' in the area will run with this story about how this will destroy them, completely avoiding the real reasons as to why they are struggling in the first place.

[reflexzero]

I don't know.. there seems to be a perfectly good pathway system along Memorial, which is shaded and is somewhat scenic, rather than baking on the pavement in the sun.

Does someone think that this is going to be some sort of magical renaissance, and suddenly people from all over the city will drive down to Memorial so that they can go walk on the road? I don't buy it.

Personally, I spend my weekends getting as far away from downtown Calgary as I can possibly be. Peace and quiet is my goal.

[Bigtime]

I don't know.. there seems to be a perfectly good pathway system along Memorial, which is shaded and is somewhat scenic, rather than baking on the pavement in the sun.

Does someone think that this is going to be some sort of magical renaissance, and suddenly people from all over the city will drive down to Memorial so that they can go walk on the road? I don't buy it.

Personally, I spend my weekends getting as far away from downtown Calgary as I can possibly be. Peace and quiet is my goal.

Well I don't know either, perhaps that is why we should at least try it first? That pathway system gets incredibly congested on that stretch along Memorial to the point of being a safety hazard, I know this from firsthand experience on my bike every year.

Plenty of peace and quiet can be found downtown and in the Beltline.

[Bigtime]

Michael Platt weighs in on the debate:

Are we cosmopolitan folk who want to close a major artery for rollerbladers and buskers ... or are we Calgarians?
By MICHAEL PLATT

Last Updated: 15th April 2009, 1:36am

In one sense, Calgarians should see Ald. Druh Farrell's schemes and dreams as a compliment to who she thinks we are.

Like the well-meaning aunt who gives you a junior art kit for your birthday, when you really wanted the latest Droolgaar action figure with exploding capillaries, Farrell believes we are a bright bunch just needing inspiration.

In Alderman Farrell's world, Calgarians aren't people who attend monster truck rallies, or folks who willingly spend their spare time drinking six packs while cheering pay-per-view Ultimate Fighting.

Calgarians, to Druh, are cosmopolitan citizens held down by bland concrete and too many strip malls. She's made it her mission to bring culture to the supposedly deprived masses.

That the masses might think she's putting too much sugar in her morning latte doesn't occur to the alderman, who is perplexed that anyone would oppose the idea of half-shutting Memorial Dr. so pedestrians can use the road.

"Why would anyone be against this?" asked Farrell, when told some Calgarians won't be happy to have a major artery reduced to a single-lane road, even on a Sunday in August.

Actually, it'll be every Sunday in August, and it's a looming reality.

Farrell says she already has the city's approval to shut the river-side lanes of Memorial between 10 St. N.W. and 3 St. N.W., on Sundays in August.

On those select days, the two south lanes will be reserved for pedestrians, cyclists, skaters and the like, and there are plans for entertainment, including music, along the temporary asphalt promenade.

Critics upset that a major city road will be shut, when a bike path already exists just metres away, are missing the point says the alderman.

The idea, inspired by similar closures in cities like Winnipeg, Rio and New York, is not aimed at annoying motorists, says Farrell, but to inspire Calgarians to gather, play and socialize in a less-hurried way.

With fewer cars on Sunday, Farrell doesn't expect there will be traffic issues.

"It's not aimed to frustrate drivers -- it's pretty sleepy on a Sunday; it's the slowest day of the week," said Farrell.

She said the closed area is not just for people who live in the inner city, either.

"All Calgarians are welcome," said Farrell, adding that she hopes cynics will try it before they condemn the closure.

"They should give it a chance, and come down."

But there are already storm clouds gathering over Farrell's summer paradise, with another alderman on council in a thunderous mood over the road shutdown, which never went to a vote.

Ald. Ric McIver said the scheme is a traffic jam waiting to happen, and a serious inconvenience for motorists and emergency vehicles with more important things to do than frolic on the riverbank.

"This is wackier than all get out -- it's a major artery," said McIver.

"I like block parties as much as the next guy, but why isn't this taking place on a cul-de-sac, or on a street not used for commuting?

"It's the worst idea I've heard in a long time, and I'd like to know how the heck this was approved."

It's not Farrell's first time caught in a struggle between her vision of what Calgarians should be, and the reality of a population often more concerned with avoiding traffic snarls on a precious summer Sunday.

The designer pedestrian bridge to be built across the Bow River has earned Farrell considerable flak, though it will be used by millions of people in future decades, and is likely to become a noted city landmark.

There were far cheaper options, but Farrell fought for what she believes Calgarians would appreciate, if they'd only give the Santiago Calatrava-designed bridge a chance.

And now, with the half-closure of Memorial Dr., Farrell is again trying to introduce Calgarians to a bit of culture, believing we are a cosmopolitan community just waiting to be freed.

She's got the best of intentions, no doubt, but there's something Farrell needs to ask herself.

What do Calgarians really want?

MICHAEL.PLATT@SUNMEDIA.CA
Link (http://www.calgarysun.com/news/columnists/michael_platt/2009/04/15/9115596-sun.html)

[MonctonGoldenFlames]

This sounds like nothing more than Druh Farrell trying to keep her nice inner city neighbourhood, very quiet and car free on sundays. It will simply prevent vehicles from cutting thru Sunnyside via 8 St. to avoid waiting in line at the 10 St. lights. She has put enough spin on it to make it sound like a good idea to the ignorant. There are 2 paths thru that stretch of Memorial Dr, one for pedestrians and one for wheeled travellers. We do not need an extra 2 vehicle lanes for foot traffic.

[Bigtime]

This sounds like nothing more than Druh Farrell trying to keep her nice inner city neighbourhood, very quiet and car free on sundays. It will simply prevent vehicles from cutting thru Sunnyside via 8 St. to avoid waiting in line at the 10 St. lights. She has put enough spin on it to make it sound like a good idea to the ignorant. There are 2 paths thru that stretch of Memorial Dr, one for pedestrians and one for wheeled travellers. We do not need an extra 2 vehicle lanes for foot traffic.

If that is the real reason why not start with traffic calming measures like roundabouts and big speed bumps on 8th street?

Who would possibly utilize the 8th street shortcut on a bloody Sunday? At the most you are probably going to wait 4 minutes to make a right turn onto 10th street. If that is the case, then I am even more in favour of shutting it down to stiffle people that choose to take another route and go ripping through residential areas (I wonder how many actually slow down to 30 in the playground zone there?).

This city survived the Centre street bridge and 6th avenue closure, this is a non-issue.

[MonctonGoldenFlames]

Turning right onto 10 St. is sometimes a 2-3 light wait, even on sundays. with the amount of pedestrian traffic, it is much easier to short cut thru 8 St.

Shutting down Memorial, especially when 16 ave is under construction will really make travelling east-west a pain in the arse.

[Bigtime]

Turning right onto 10 St. is sometimes a 2-3 light wait, even on sundays. with the amount of pedestrian traffic, it is much easier to short cut thru 8 St.

Shutting down Memorial, especially when 16 ave is under construction will really make travelling east-west a pain in the arse.

Damn pedestrians, get off the crosswalks! http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/2889/emotcolbert.gif

It would be a quick detour for someone to simply get onto 4th avenue and up to 10th street that way. Or go straight through 10th and hang a quick right just before the Kensington Riverside Inn.

If people can figure out shortcuts all the time under heavy traffic situations than this should present no problem to all those clever commuters.

[reflexzero]

If that is the real reason why not start with traffic calming measures like roundabouts and big speed bumps on 8th street?



I find driving faster over speed humps in this city ( Capri Ave NW I'm looking at you ) tends to negate their effects, much to the chagrin on the locals. Plus during the 8 months of winter the ice build up makes them dissapear into the road anyway.

Although, any of our local pretend cowboys driving trucks and SUV's seem to just sail over the humps without a second thought, their tires neatly spaced to avoid even touching the humps.

But back on topic. I wonder if Druh is thinking that the lane closure would be a good idea in the dead of winter too. I'll mention it again, Calgary has 8 months of winter. She should have tried this social engineering experiment back in February.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ closing the road to traffic is no more social engineering than leaving it open to traffic.

People throw that term around way too liberally, using market forces to change behaviour does not necessarily effect the social view of such behaviour. Without effecting societies view of a behaviour, it cannot be social engineering. Also, since it is applied to such a small area and population size, and is not mandatory it isn't really on a societal scale.

Now something like car free Sundays, now that would be social engineering.

[Bigtime]

I find driving faster over speed humps in this city ( Capri Ave NW I'm looking at you ) tends to negate their effects, much to the chagrin on the locals. Plus during the 8 months of winter the ice build up makes them dissapear into the road anyway.

Although, any of our local pretend cowboys driving trucks and SUV's seem to just sail over the humps without a second thought, their tires neatly spaced to avoid even touching the humps.

But back on topic. I wonder if Druh is thinking that the lane closure would be a good idea in the dead of winter too. I'll mention it again, Calgary has 8 months of winter. She should have tried this social engineering experiment back in February.

8 months of winter? Really? According to Envrionment Canada and their historical data from 1971-2000 we have 7 months of the year with an average temperature above 0 degrees. Call it what you want, but I am tired of the cop-out excuse of "Calgary is in winter all the time". :rolleyes:

I remember walking down big open pedestrian spaces in sub zero temperatures in Italy with plenty of other people that had no problem with it.

Have you seen the new super speed bumps that are now being used? They span the entire length of the road and are about 5 feet wide. Trucks and snow cannot mitigate their effects.

[Wooster]

http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/bu/trans_planning/studies/25_ave_connector/25ave_connector_recommended_plan.pdf

Carried over from the downtown arena debate.

Is anyone else concerned about the impact of a traffic interchange on Erlton as proposed here?

It would bring a grade separation, huge traffic ramps in a relatively urban context. To me there is a big risk of sterilizing the area around it and really diminishing the potential of the Anthem Erlton project they have planned for along Macleod between 22nd and 25th. What kind of interface will this create with an inclined off ramp lining the site? Is such suburban freeway infrastructure appropriate for this context?

[Beltliner]

http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/bu/trans_planning/studies/25_ave_connector/25ave_connector_recommended_plan.pdf

Carried over from the downtown arena debate.

Is anyone else concerned about the impact of a traffic interchange on Erlton as proposed here?

It would bring a grade separation, huge traffic ramps in a relatively urban context. To me there is a big risk of sterilizing the area around it and really diminishing the potential of the Anthem Erlton project they have planned for along Macleod between 22nd and 25th. What kind of interface will this create with an inclined off ramp lining the site?

I can see how, in the context of trying to improve mass transit flow-through at Erlton Station, a SPUI at Macleod x 25 Avenue would generate that baby-out-with-the-bathwater kind of feeling, Bertie. Not that I think anyone here on the board would miss the Humpty's and the Deep Discount Mortgage Joint on the west side of the roadworks, but you're right about the slip roads making it more difficult to keep up a walkable environment in the area, especially if Anthem Erlton does go ahead.

[nik8063]

As a resident who lives right in the middle of where this zone will be, I think this is a pretty bad idea. The layout of the ground in this stretch is just not very conducive to connecting this corridor with the river. I wouldn't personally mind the extra hustle and bustle of this being across the street from me, but it just doesn't make sense.

You have two lanes of concrete and then a rather steep embankment blocking line of sight to the river. If this was to be done, a better choice would be between 10th and the cloverleaf to 14th. Closer to the businesses and a flatter area to provide a better combination of the river park area and the road closure.

However, overall I just don't think it's a great idea. This is a major cross town roadway, summer or not. I don't even drive anymore and I think this would suck.

[Bigtime]

That is nasty Wooster, is there any sort of timeframe on this?

Edit: Let me rephrase that, nasty but probably necessary?

[Bigtime]

However, overall I just don't think it's a great idea. This is a major cross town roadway, summer or not. I don't even drive anymore and I think this would suck.

Look at it this way, how is this any worse than the closures of both centre street and 6th avenue for construction? This will still allow traffic, be it only 1 lane each way.

Or how is this any different than 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th avenues with all the lanes closed for construction for the last 3 or more years? Traffic is still flowing. This closure is going to 'restrict' traffic (not shut it out entirely) for 5 days in the entire year!

[freeweed]

Look at it this way, how is this any worse than the closures of both centre street and 6th avenue for construction? This will still allow traffic, be it only 1 lane each way.

Emphasis mine. Normally my first instinct is to scoff at these ideas, especially in a city with such poor east-west road coverage, but...

THE ROAD ISN'T CLOSING.

On a Saturday this would be insanity but Sundays are usually pretty quiet on Memorial. I'd be inclined to agree that 2 lanes could handle all the traffic.

[canlefty]

^still, it's an exercise in redundancy...pointless redundancy.

The pathway is right there, and even worse, for that stretch of memorial, there is a decent embankment between the road and the pathway / view of the river... whomever chooses to stray off onto the road will be strolling through a barren concrete "pit" in the middle of a divided roadway... I really don't understand the appeal.

I've lived all 23 years of my life in Hillhurst, during that time i've never had the desire to walk about in the middle of memorial when the pathway is right there, and you can actually see the river from it. (and just so the Druh lovers don't come bearing down on me, I am a full supporter of the ped. bridges)

What I want to see done (as i've already said in this thread), is for Kensington road to be closed off for a time (say, 8am to 6pm) on Sunday. Now, there's an area I would want to walk around in, because hey, there's actually something there to walk to.

I understand Ms.Farrhel's (sp?) "argument" is that she wants Calgary to "become more active" or something to that effect --- Isn't that what the pathway there, directly adjacent to memorial, for???

Why not push for an expansion / refurbishment of the pathway on the North bank like on the south / eauclaire side. At least then it would look attractive, not a disconnected road way in a valley.

[MichaelS]

^ Exactly. I don't think the issue is weather the existing traffic is too much for only 2 lanes. Probably won't be an issue. I think more people have an issue with this as there is little to no benefit from what most can see. Is the pathway really so crowded that you simply can't fit one more person on it? Will people actually choose to walk down an empty half of a major roadway, simply because they can? I just don't see the reasoning for wanting to do this in this location.

[frinkprof]

Nevermind.

[h0twired]

I can see the closed lanes of Memorial being dead with the exception of the occasional cyclist avoiding the bike path.

I highly doubt that it will become some pedestrian paradise. Most would probably still rather walk along the shops of Kensington or along the river.

[Bigtime]

Does anyone really think if the plan was to close down 10th street in Kensington suddenly everyone would be all for it? Because in that scenario the ENTIRE road would be closed (that sound you hear is a thousand keyboards angrily typing responses about "social engineering, silly hall, McIvor for mayor, etc" on comment sections of online news everywhere).

McIvor would still have his panties in a knot and be pandering to John & Jane Q. Public with his remarks like "I'm all for active living, but not in this case.".

Tell me, when has McIvor actually done more than just flap his gums to get yet another soundbite on the news or quote in the papers?

The business' in Kensington would absolutely flip out about how this will destroy them once and for all.

So we close down 2 of 4 lanes, and it turns out to be quite popular. Perhaps that will allow the city some leverage to actually try and close down an entire street like 10th next summer on Sundays? Or it is a collossal failure and we learn from it and move on with a different try somewhere else next time.

You have to start with something, and at least this strikes a balance of still keeping a roadway open at the same time.

[frinkprof]

Nevermind.

[Bigtime]

P.S. I hate to be "that guy," but you habitually misspell McIver as McIvor.

Woops! Thanks for the heads up!

As for this closure I will definitely head over there with wife and baby in stroller to see how this works out.

[reflexzero]

8 months of winter? Really? According to Envrionment Canada and their historical data from 1971-2000 we have 7 months of the year with an average temperature above 0 degrees. Call it what you want, but I am tired of the cop-out excuse of "Calgary is in winter all the time". :rolleyes:

Agreed, Environment Canada doesn't lie, but being above freezing doesn't mean basking in warmth either. It's Calgary, and it usually gets miserable just in time for the weekend. I love that wind that picks up all the dirt from construction and blows it directly into my eyeballs.

Not to mention the green grass turns brown and dead from oppressive heat in July, and the leaves start falling off the trees in August. :tup:

[Bigtime]

How can I cheer you up buddy? :D

[mooky]

Not sure whether this goes under the airport thread or roads, sorta deals with both so I will cross-post. I love how in the embedded video the airport aurthorities basic understanding of the situation is that they are in the business of aircraft, not roads. Now that's how to be a good neighbor and community partner :tup: :rolleyes:

http://www.metronews.ca/calgary/local/article/213855--all-engines-on-for-airport-expansion-ceo

----------------------------------------
Expansion plans for the Calgary International Airport will fly despite continued calls to build a commuter tunnel beneath a future runway, stakeholders were told yesterday.

Garth Atkinson, president and CEO of the Calgary Airport Authority, told those who attended the airport’s annual general meeting that it’s still full steam ahead on a $3-billion, 10-year expansion that will include a new runway, taxiways and a new terminal.

And despite northeast Ald. Jim Stevenson’s push to extend Airport Trail by tunnelling beneath the proposed four-kilometre run­way to ensure communities aren’t cut off by the planned closure of Barlow Trail, Atkinson said the expansion won’t be delayed.

“The time for this has come and gone — we’re spending money so any change now would set us back and cost us money,” he said.

“I’m not personally aware of any interest in committing public funds to this project.”

Atkinson said the major parts of the expansion, the new runway and international terminal, are set to begin construction in 2011 with completion expected in 2014.

Stevenson said he hasn’t given on up on hope for getting the access built and is optimistic that the provincial and federal governments will chip in when the true cost to provide a temporary solution is sussed out.

“I’ve never been as optimistic as I am right now,” he said noting a report on the full cost of a temporary extension of Airport Trail will come to a city committee in June.

“The plan we have right now, to build three bridges at the runway and taxiways will only cost in the neighbourhood of $100 million to $150 million and we can do that.”

Stevenson said he’s hoping to get answers about matching the city’s already committed $50 million from the other orders of government by the fall.

SHAWN LOGAN
METRO CALGARY
April 16, 2009

[Bigtime]

I love how in the embedded video the airport aurthorities basic understanding of the situation is that they are in the business of aircraft, not roads. Now that's how to be a good neighbor and community partner :tup: :rolleyes:

I disagree, the parallel runway has been on the books for at least 2 decades now. It was only a matter of time until it needed to go ahead, all levels of government are guilty of not preparing for this to happen.

I don't want to see the Airport Authority have to foot a bunch of the bill for a tunnel if it is just going to hit us in a higher Airport fee, landing fees, etc.

[mooky]

I disagree, the parallel runway has been on the books for at least 2 decades now. It was only a matter of time until it needed to go ahead, all levels of government are guilty of not preparing for this to happen.

I don't want to see the Airport Authority have to foot a bunch of the bill for a tunnel if it is just going to hit us in a higher Airport fee, landing fees, etc.

Well I never said they should, but to be so dismissive on their part is sort of a big F-U to the area. I mean taking out Barlow really limits the access points to that whole area of town.

[Bigtime]

They are not doing anything to the surrounding community, all they are doing is going forward with plans that have been on the books for 20+ years. Are we to expect them to stop everything while we wait for the different government levels to squabble over the funding even further?

The airport is a huge economy generator. For example UPS has started building a new processing warehouse on the field, we need to expand to keep competitive and continue to generate a positive to the Calgary economy.

They are dismissive because they are tired of waiting around for the other parties to figure something out. Time to start building.

[reflexzero]

Well, if Metis trail was finished to Country Hills Blvd, it would help with the Barlow closure.

Those of us who use 36st NE north of 80th Ave to get to Country Hills know it looks like a goat trail that was carpet bombed, and it probably can't sustain much more heavy traffic than it already does without exploding.

I think a tunnel would be cool at the airport, very Dallas Fort Worth International, but probably not on the radar of all levels of government until it becomes a huge afterthought.

[MalcolmTucker]

Not having airport trail go east bound saves the airport a ton of cash in not building a crazy system of spaghetti ramps for terminal access. In fact, they won't really need any ramps at all, and will be able to eliminate traffic lights with only one bridge, south bound Barlow into the terminal.

[mooky]

Would the proposed tunnel be cut-n-cover or require a hole-boring machine? I assume if it's done in conjunction with the expansion a cut-n-cover would work.

I'm just worried that the funding won't come through in time for cut-n-cover and the hole-boring will be deemed too expensive after-the-fact, and yet another project in this city gets completed, but not the way that is most efficient in the long run.

I'm in no way blaming the airport authority, with the amount of traffic it sees on a daily basis another runway is a must in the near future or else we risk losing air business. How much consultation has the airport authority done with all levels of gov't on this matter? I have no clue, maybe you know Bigtime?

[mersar]

Well, if Metis trail was finished to Country Hills Blvd, it would help with the Barlow closure.

The latest plan I've heard is that it should be completed between 80th and Country Hills by this fall in some form (whether only 2 or all 4 lanes is likely the question). The section between Country Hills and 128th is half open already with traffic running on the NB lanes and the SB lanes are paved but not open, and they are nearly ready to start the final work before paving 128th to 144th and the interchange at Stoney. South of CHB they've already done the earthwork for a ways, I suspect all the way to the edge of the one property that the city was forced to expropriate.

[freeweed]

The airport has some responsibility here, period.

If this was a competitive environment (ie: we had 2 competing airports in Calgary) you damned well better believe they wouldn't let a good chunk of the city cut be so cut off from getting to their facilities. No access = people just go to the competition.

Having a monopoly means they can literally say "FU" to the NE, and I'm sure legally they're entitled to do that as well, but it's a pretty a-hole move.

Sadly, everyone wants to only follow the letter of the law these days. Sorry, airport folks, but a LOT has changed in 20 years.

That being said, the City/Province/Feds are being completely stupid here. Billions are being thrown around like candy right now, I'm sure we could come up with a reasonable way for half of a city to access Canada's 3rd biggest airport (Montreal's Hollywood accounting aside).

[MonctonGoldenFlames]

Not having airport trail go east bound saves the airport a ton of cash in not building a crazy system of spaghetti ramps for terminal access. In fact, they won't really need any ramps at all, and will be able to eliminate traffic lights with only one bridge, south bound Barlow into the terminal.

i really don't understand the need for any ramps with airport rail extending east under the tunnel. do you have a diagram or anything to support your thought?

[lubicon]

A little light hearted-ness


Spell-binding mistake causes some to ask 'Y'

By NADIA MOHARIB, SUN MEDIA

Last Updated: 16th April 2009, 3:20am

Street signs leading motorists to Symons Valley Rd. in the city's northwest reflect a time when it was spelled with an I not a Y.

While the signs speak to a curious debate that goes back to the 1990s between city officials and would-be developers on how it should be spelled, the fact they are still standing appears to be an 'oops' down at City Hall, says an amused Glynn Hendry, vice-president with Calgary Operations for Qualico Homes, builders of a community in the Symons Valley area.

"I think someone made a mistake," he said.

City roads department spokeswoman Lorie Boychuk, however, said Simons wasn't always a mistake.

"As far back as we can tell, the spelling changed around 1996," she said.

"It was technically not an incorrect spelling until it became an official development."

Given plans for future subdivisions the signage, albeit incorrectly spelled, was left as is.

Boychuk said the discrepancies between the signs along Berkshire Blvd. and Country Hills Blvd. routing motorists to Simons Valley Rd., which is actually now Symons Valley Rd., have likely remained unchanged because it is not a priority, doesn't pose safety concerns and will soon be gone.

"It could have just been lower on the priority list when they realized it's Symons with a Y," she said. "Certainty, everything going forward will be spelled with a Y.

"The signs will be retired once the Stoney Tr. interchange is complete and people will likely not be going through those communities to get there."

Historian Harry Sanders said it's not the only instance in the city where spelling is incorrect.

Lowery Gardens, in the southwest, is named after John Lawrie and unless it's changed recently has been spelled incorrectly for more than 100 years, Sanders said.

The Calgary Board of Education also seems to have some Simon/Symon issues of its own. Its Simons Valley school, in the community of Sandstone, is named after a postmaster in the early 1890s named Mr. Symon.

[freeweed]

Lowery Gardens, in the southwest, is named after John Lawrie and unless it's changed recently has been spelled incorrectly for more than 100 years, Sanders said.

Same guy as John Laurie Blvd?

[lubicon]

I was wondering the same thing when I saw the article.

[MalcolmTucker]

i really don't understand the need for any ramps with airport rail extending east under the tunnel. do you have a diagram or anything to support your thought?
Since the airport under agreement from the city pays for any roads on airport land, and most definitely likes the idea of traffic light free access to the terminal, you get this:
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/3888/45626238.jpgWithout the tunnel, Barlow north and Airport Trail West have light free access to the terminal roads (up is north of course, different colours are grade separations).

With the tunnel, to keep the same degree of access, you need a full stack (I didn't draw even a full stack, for simplification, but you end up with alot more bridges if you want to keep traffic lights off the access)

[You Need A Thneed]

Since the airport under agreement from the city pays for any roads on airport land, and most definitely likes the idea of traffic light free access to the terminal, you get this:
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/3888/45626238.jpgWithout the tunnel, Barlow north and Airport Trail West have light free access to the terminal roads (up is north of course, different colours are grade separations).

With the tunnel, to keep the same degree of access, you need a full stack (I didn't draw even a full stack, for simplification, but you end up with alot more bridges if you want to keep traffic lights off the access)

Without the tunnel, all those ramps would just be required at both McKnight and on Country Hills Blvd. Oh wait, land isn't being set aside along Country Hills Blvd for interchanges. Guess how much everything is going to cost then?

All the current community plans have Airport Trail as the expressway, and Country Hills Blvd as the Major Road. That absolutely MUST switch if the tunnel is not built. I think Country Hills Blvd has something like 7 proposed traffic lights in a short distance North of the Airport? It will become gridlock like this city has never seen before if it's left that way and the tunnel is not built. It's almost too late to make those changes, and the changes would likely end up costing the city much more in the end.

I would go as far as to say that without the tunnel, much of the currently undeveloped land around country hills blvd becomes completely undevelopable. The developments that may go in there would be built somewhere else, perhaps outside the ring road in the same area.

“I’m not personally aware of any interest in committing public funds to this project.”

It should be mentioned that this quote is a blatent lie. The city has already committed to it's share of the money if the other parties provide their share.

[MalcolmTucker]

Without the tunnel, all those ramps would just be required at both McKnight and on Country Hills Blvd. Oh wait, land isn't being set aside along Country Hills Blvd for interchanges. Guess how much everything is going to cost then?

All the current community plans have Airport Trail as the expressway, and Country Hills Blvd as the Major Road. That absolutely MUST switch if the tunnel is not built. I think Country Hills Blvd has something like 7 proposed traffic lights in a short distance North of the Airport? It will become gridlock like this city has never seen before if it's left that way and the tunnel is not built. It's almost too late to make those changes, and the changes would likely end up costing the city much more in the end.

I would go as far as to say that without the tunnel, much of the currently undeveloped land around country hills blvd becomes completely undevelopable. The developments that may go in there would be built somewhere else, perhaps outside the ring road in the same area.


Plan It does not include the Airport trail runway crossing. Not having the road cross the runway does mess up circulation patterns, but it will still be an expressway.

It won't be as bad as you prognosticate, but it will certainly effect land use patterns. It will also put more pressure on McKnight to be finished with a rebuilt interchange at Deerfoot. Country Hills is likely close enough to Stoney that most traffic crossing from east to west would go further north, except for more local traffic.

Edit: And it doesn't matter for the airport that Country Hills has no room to move things around, the fact is the airport has little financial penalty for not building it. They will still be able to advertise having freeways on the immediate periphery of the entire airport, which is what counts for leasing out the airports land base.

[Koolfire]

Since the airport under agreement from the city pays for any roads on airport land, and most definitely likes the idea of traffic light free access to the terminal, you get this:
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/3888/45626238.jpgWithout the tunnel, Barlow north and Airport Trail West have light free access to the terminal roads (up is north of course, different colours are grade separations).

With the tunnel, to keep the same degree of access, you need a full stack (I didn't draw even a full stack, for simplification, but you end up with alot more bridges if you want to keep traffic lights off the access)

I thought the entrance to the airport moves roughly half way between Barlow and Deerfoot as the current entrance will become tarmac and a terminal expansion. Therefore, I don't think the interchange design can change.

[MalcolmTucker]

I thought the entrance to the airport moves roughly half way between Barlow and Deerfoot as the current entrance will become tarmac and a terminal expansion. Therefore, I don't think the interchange design can change.

Right now the roads go east out of the terminal, since there were originally built to connect to Barlow. In the future, they will go north to intersect directly with Airport Trail. It would make sense to make that intersection be where Barlow and Airport Trail currently meet, as it would be cheaper no matter what.

There is lots of land north of the terminal to get the roads to align where it is cheapest.

With the cost of construction being what it is, I am sure the airport will choose the cheapest way. In any case, without the tunnel, you reduce any arrangements complexity by an order of magnitude.

[You Need A Thneed]

Plan It does not include the Airport trail runway crossing. Not having the road cross the runway does mess up circulation patterns, but it will still be an expressway.

It won't be as bad as you prognosticate, but it will certainly effect land use patterns. It will also put more pressure on McKnight to be finished with a rebuilt interchange at Deerfoot. Country Hills is likely close enough to Stoney that most traffic crossing from east to west would go further north, except for more local traffic.

Edit: And it doesn't matter for the airport that Country Hills has no room to move things around, the fact is the airport has little financial penalty for not building it. They will still be able to advertise having freeways on the immediate periphery of the entire airport, which is what counts for leasing out the airports land base.
Airport Trail without the tunnel will be a pointless expressway that leads to nowhere and noone will drive on. Seriously, the only reason for anyone to drive on it would be to access the ring road to the east, but how many people will do that? It wouldn't be the quickest way to most places in the city. (I'm talking about the portion of Airport Trail east of proposed tunnel).

And when everything is built out, Country Hills Blvd will be the main road to get to Deerfoot for a LOT of homes and businesses. It would be like what 162nd ave south would be like right now if the Midnapore and James McKevitt accesses to McLeod Trail were completely blocked off. And I don't think I'm using hyberbole when I say that. IMO, Country Hills Blvd would have to be an 8 lane freeway, at the very least.

And, as I've stated in other posts regarding the tunnel, not having the tunnel there is quite detrimental to the economy of the airport as well. All the hotels and Air Services in the McKnight/ Barlow area might as well be in Douglasdale for how easy it would be to get to the airport if the tunnel doesn't get built.

[MonctonGoldenFlames]

Since the airport under agreement from the city pays for any roads on airport land, and most definitely likes the idea of traffic light free access to the terminal, you get this:
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/3888/45626238.jpgWithout the tunnel, Barlow north and Airport Trail West have light free access to the terminal roads (up is north of course, different colours are grade separations).

With the tunnel, to keep the same degree of access, you need a full stack (I didn't draw even a full stack, for simplification, but you end up with alot more bridges if you want to keep traffic lights off the access)

Thanks for explaining your view Kyle. I just always assumed that a single set of lights would not be a huge issue to deal with.

[fusili]

Don't know if there has been any discussion on here regarding Farrell's proposal to close down memorial on Sunday's in August. Just a short comment:


Good idea. Wrong road.

[Beltliner]

^^^ And that sentiment could just as easily be applied to last year's decision to squeeze in the 11 Street SW bike lanes. The unintended consequences of knocking out a traffic lane--backed-up left turn movements; near misses consequent to taxis, lorries, and delivery vans parking half in the bike lane and half in the through lane to wait in front of buildings; and DIY lane settings in rush hour or in foul weather--have undone all of the good will and the komil'fo driving and cycling behaviour that should by rights have resulted from bringing the bike lanes online.

[Claeren]

Also some city workers don't seem to know how they work, a while back in my 'hood the city needed to block access to one road off a roundabout, and they choose the 2nd method instead of the 1st one:

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/1277/circle.jpg


I came across this exact scenario in Mount Royal once!

I was a little confused about what exactly they wanted drivers to do....



Claeren.

[twsnagel]

Same guy as John Laurie Blvd?

No, John Laurie was an educator and political activist.

[Beltliner]

My last word* on the Great Memorial Drive August Sunday Promenade Experiment™:

The tenor of recent discussions over the proposal to close a portion of eastbound Memorial Drive for a pedestrian promenade on Sundays in August has become unnecessarily hostile.

If no-one bats an eyelash at the closure of Fourth Street SW through Mission and the Beltline for the annual Lilac Festival, and if the civic consensus is that the closure of most of the downtown road grid for the Calgary Stampede parade is worthwhile, then what is the rationale for opposing this pilot project with such vitriol? It can’t be the notion that both of these events are abject failures in bringing Calgarians together and in reclaiming our civic spaces. It can’t be the premise that both of these events gridlock the city-wide street network to a smoggy standstill. Most importantly, it can’t be the idea that event organisers and civic officials conjure up public activities out of thin air with the express intention of sticking it to the automobile.

Let’s take the Memorial Drive promenade proposal for what it is—a pilot project to test whether Calgarians will warm to our riverfront spaces under specified conditions and using specified incentives. There’s only one way to find out, right?

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* Arright, arright, my last 198 words, if you really want to get technical. ;)

[MichaelS]

^ But those closures you mention all are closures for a reason, like a festival or a parade. Simply closing a road and saying "Okay, go walk on it" will not be enough in my opinion to justify its closure. If a market were to be set up on the closed roadway, or some other event, my opinion would change. And as has been pointed out by another poster, due to the berm on the south side it is a bit of a stretch to call it riverfront.

Bigtime did bring up a good point about it being a way to test a small section, and then use it as justification to close down busier streets. I agree that this is a good plan, however fear that it could backfire. By closing down a street that doesn't have much of a draw to people (my opinion), if it isn't successful critics could use this failure as a reason to oppose the closure of the busier streets that may be more popular.

[Beltliner]

^^^ From what I understand, the game plan incorporates things like wandering minstrels, cotton-candy sellers, and machete jugglers and the like to try and draw a festive kind of crowd.

What I will concede is that they could have communicated this idea much more effectively. Still, if you're going to run this kind of pilot project, I defy you to tell me it would work better during the Friday afternoon rush. :D

[MichaelS]

^^^ From what I understand, the game plan incorporates things like wandering minstrels, cotton-candy sellers, and machete jugglers and the like to try and draw a festive kind of crowd.

What I will concede is that they could have communicated this idea much more effectively. Still, if you're going to run this kind of pilot project, I defy you to tell me it would work better during the Friday afternoon rush. :D

Well I was unaware of those plans. That makes me feel better about it. I was under the impression that they would simply close off the road, and that was it. Not a big draw in my books.

And, I do feel like I accomplished something in that I got a few more "last words" out of you on the topic :D

[YYCguys]

Does anyone else think that the City of Calgary needs to pull up its socks when naming roads? I am thinking of Barlow Trail which stops and starts with no relation to the previous leg of that road at various points throughout the city. With the new runway cutting out a part of Barlow, this fragments t his road even further! Barlow will travel south from Barlow Cres to the north of the airport to Airport Rd and then stop. It will then start again farther east from CHB south to McKnight and then continue on to 17 Ave SE. It then restarts at Peigan and goes to Deerfoot. The City has a lot of renaming of those portions of Barlow to do! End rant of the day!