Calgary Roads

[suburbia]

I think the Deerfoot disaster is far worse than anything the Henday or Stoney can bring too the table. That’s a whole other kettle of fish. Just happy some level of government cares about the crap show getting out of Evanston is right now

The Evanston developer was a moron. Remember the original access? Why anyone purchased there at that stage is beyond me. Now I can see people looking there for sure, because there is some light at the end of the tunnel. Originally I think the developer should have been made to contribute to access.

[ImmortalHawk]

- I'd in fact argue that SW Henday at 111 St is a fuckshow comparable to Deerfoot

True, true. Although it's whole design connected to Henday and Gateway/Calgary Tr is similarly bad like our Deerfoot at Stoney SE, with Cranston/Mckenzie Blvd and Cranston/Seton Blvd connected to it horribly...

And aren't they planning on making a new interchange south of Seton Blvd? I mean that whole SE suburb area is horrible in traffic congestion. Google Maps already has a small Southbound Deerfoot ramp to eastbound Cranston Gate...
(I'm not sure if the road is called 210 or 212 Avenue, but it goes to Rangeview, a new development area.)

[suburbia]

True, true. Although it's whole design connected to Henday and Gateway/Calgary Tr is similarly bad like our Deerfoot at Stoney SE, with Cranston/Mckenzie Blvd and Cranston/Seton Blvd connected to it horribly...

And aren't they planning on making a new interchange south of Seton Blvd? I mean that whole SE suburb area is horrible in traffic congestion. Google Maps already has a small Southbound Deerfoot ramp to eastbound Cranston Gate...
(I'm not sure if the road is called 210 or 212 Avenue, but it goes to Rangeview, a new development area.)

That whole SE commuter community area needs to be treated like a true commuter community and have surcharges / additional taxes and fees applied via additional municipal taxes and increased transit fares. I agree that it is a gong show, and it is putting a strain on the entire city.

[msmariner]

True, true. Although it's whole design connected to Henday and Gateway/Calgary Tr is similarly bad like our Deerfoot at Stoney SE, with Cranston/Mckenzie Blvd and Cranston/Seton Blvd connected to it horribly...

And aren't they planning on making a new interchange south of Seton Blvd? I mean that whole SE suburb area is horrible in traffic congestion. Google Maps already has a small Southbound Deerfoot ramp to eastbound Cranston Gate...
(I'm not sure if the road is called 210 or 212 Avenue, but it goes to Rangeview, a new development area.)

Interchange is already well into the build. SB ramps already open into Cranston @ 210 ave

[ImmortalHawk]

Interchange is already well into the build. SB ramps already open into Cranston @ 210 ave

Thanks for the update, 'cuz I don't ever get the chance to pass by there

[msmariner]

Councillor Joe Magliocca announced on his FB page that the city is going to start construction on the missing link on Symons Valley Parkway between 37st and S.V. Road. With this build and 14st Interchange over Stoney will make things smooth when exiting/entering Evanston

[ImmortalHawk]

Councillor Joe Magliocca announced on his FB page that the city is going to start construction on the missing link on Symons Valley Parkway between 37st and S.V. Road. With this build and 14st Interchange over Stoney will make things smooth when exiting/entering Evanston

FINALLY. Symons Valley should have been upgraded earlier, same 14 Street... Urban sprawl tsk tsk :/

There's too many people living up north now, but at least the traffic isn't too bad

[suburbia]

FINALLY. Symons Valley should have been upgraded earlier, same 14 Street... Urban sprawl tsk tsk :/

There's too many people living up north now, but at least the traffic isn't too bad

As I mentioned earlier, it was the Evanston developer that messed this up, building a community before access existed, and refusing to contribute towards expediting access to the community. With most other projects, a developer will push access along first, rather than selling homes and telling people, oh just wait a few months. Evanston should have a surtax applied for the significant municipal funds being used for construction outside the ring road.

[msmariner]

As I mentioned earlier, it was the Evanston developer that messed this up, building a community before access existed, and refusing to contribute towards expediting access to the community. With most other projects, a developer will push access along first, rather than selling homes and telling people, oh just wait a few months. Evanston should have a surtax applied for the significant municipal funds being used for construction outside the ring road.

Why just Evanston? Panorama, Livingston, Carrington and other NW communities all benefit from the 14st interchange. The Symons Valley pkwy/128 ave extension benefits Sage Hill, Nolan Hills Sherwood and Kincora communities as much as it benefits Evanston. Once you go down the slippery slope of putting Sur tax on specific communities after the fact where does it stop?

[milomilo]

As I mentioned earlier, it was the Evanston developer that messed this up, building a community before access existed, and refusing to contribute towards expediting access to the community. With most other projects, a developer will push access along first, rather than selling homes and telling people, oh just wait a few months. Evanston should have a surtax applied for the significant municipal funds being used for construction outside the ring road.

Well why did the city approve the construction then? Your proposal would be a pretty shady way to run a city - give a developer the go-ahead to build, then retroactively tax them after they do what was allowed.

I will say the spacing between interchanges up there is absurd. I'm told these new ring roads have the best standards in the world, but there's only a few hundred meters between the on and off ramps for the most part so it doesn't look like it to me. It would be too much to ask to have a pre-thought out, logical network of roads, but instead each community is designed completely independently of each other making convoluted journeys mandatory. And god help you if you don't have a car. I don't care how dense those suburbs are, they are utter junk.

[Cage]

Well why did the city approve the construction then? Your proposal would be a pretty shady way to run a city - give a developer the go-ahead to build, then retroactively tax them after they do what was allowed.

The Evanston ASP and go ahead for development occurred prior to the construction and opening of Stoney Trail. The big shock to the Calgary Roads system occured when on opening day Alberta Transportation announced they would not support signalized intersections on the Calgary or Edmonton ring roads.

Calgary had previously counted on signalized intersections to start (50% paid for by Developers) and then move to grade separated interchanges.

In the Evanston and Panorama instances, the city had to rethink their relationships and ultimately worked it out with the Developer community as part of offsite levy.

[milomilo]

The Evanston ASP and go ahead for development occurred prior to the construction and opening of Stoney Trail. The big shock to the Calgary Roads system occured when on opening day Alberta Transportation announced they would not support signalized intersections on the Calgary or Edmonton ring roads.

Calgary had previously counted on signalized intersections to start (50% paid for by Developers) and then move to grade separated interchanges.

In the Evanston and Panorama instances, the city had to rethink their relationships and ultimately worked it out with the Developer community as part of offsite levy.

Seriously, the City only found out on the opening day? Not that I don't believe you, but wow, that's nuts.

It still doesn't excuse the awful road design of the suburbs, however. Does the City actually have any input on the roads there? It doesn't appear so as each community is completely separate to the next, and the main roads have no logical hierarchy to them - you'll have a road go through a massive interchange only to narrow down to a small road with boxed in intersections, then a massive signalized intersection with room to spare will follow that. It literally looks like every piece was designed in complete isolation.

[Corndogger]

Seriously, the City only found out on the opening day? Not that I don't believe you, but wow, that's nuts.

It still doesn't excuse the awful road design of the suburbs, however. Does the City actually have any input on the roads there? It doesn't appear so as each community is completely separate to the next, and the main roads have no logical hierarchy to them - you'll have a road go through a massive interchange only to narrow down to a small road with boxed in intersections, then a massive signalized intersection with room to spare will follow that. It literally looks like every piece was designed in complete isolation.

Of course the city has input--they design the roads.

[craner]

The Evanston ASP and go ahead for development occurred prior to the construction and opening of Stoney Trail. The big shock to the Calgary Roads system occured when on opening day Alberta Transportation announced they would not support signalized intersections on the Calgary or Edmonton ring roads.

Calgary had previously counted on signalized intersections to start (50% paid for by Developers) and then move to grade separated interchanges.

In the Evanston and Panorama instances, the city had to rethink their relationships and ultimately worked it out with the Developer community as part of offsite levy.
Thank god the province prevented signalized intersections on Stoney - what a disaster that would have been. :worship:

[Corndogger]

Thank god the province prevented signalized intersections on Stoney - what a disaster that would have been. :worship:

Deerfoot originally had no traffic lights. People think it was built with lights but that's not the case at all. IIRC during the let's cheap out and not a spend a cent Duerr reign, the city started putting in signalized intersections on the far south end so they could a ton of new communities. Not once that I know of did they ask developers to fund interchanges. When the province took control of the road back they obviously decided to put an end to such stupidity. When was the Evanston ASP done? Hopefully the city has learned some valuable lessons from the clusterfuck they created on Deerfoot.

[milomilo]

Of course the city has input--they design the roads.

I ask because it's my understanding that the developers design the road networks in their communities (someone correct me if I'm wrong). I'd assume this responsibility does not extend to the main roads, but said roads are so inconsistent that it makes me wonder if the developer is designing them too, just adding on an extra piece each time with no thought for what comes before or after.

This mainly seems to be a problem in the far NW. In the other quadrants the roads are mostly in a fairly coherent grid with a consistent design all the way through.

[suburbia]

Why just Evanston? Panorama, Livingston, Carrington and other NW communities all benefit from the 14st interchange. The Symons Valley pkwy/128 ave extension benefits Sage Hill, Nolan Hills Sherwood and Kincora communities as much as it benefits Evanston. Once you go down the slippery slope of putting Sur tax on specific communities after the fact where does it stop?

Evanston is outside of the ring road and has been surviving on a single spermatic vein for access for years. It was a ridiculous development to put forward given road infrastructure at the time. The public purse expense to "save" Evanston is massive. Agree that all communities outside of the ring road should be made to pay a municipal surcharge. The newer communities at least were smarter than Evanston, in that they are only now coming up after infrastructure is in place or there is light at the end of the tunnel, instead of going there early, and then nagging for a decade about inferior access. Communities within the ring road do not need to access commuter areas outside the ring road, so while enhanced access is nice to have, they are not driving this.

[msmariner]

Evanston is outside of the ring road and has been surviving on a single spermatic vein for access for years. It was a ridiculous development to put forward given road infrastructure at the time. The public purse expense to "save" Evanston is massive. Agree that all communities outside of the ring road should be made to pay a municipal surcharge. The newer communities at least were smarter than Evanston, in that they are only now coming up after infrastructure is in place or there is light at the end of the tunnel, instead of going there early, and then nagging for a decade about inferior access. Communities within the ring road do not need to access commuter areas outside the ring road, so while enhanced access is nice to have, they are not driving this.

I’m trying to interpret what your saying. So basically the ring road only benefits the 10% of the population that lives outside the ring road? Seems very generalized?!?! I lived in Applewood for years and the Stoney was a game changer (glad I didn’t have to pay a surcharge to live inside the ring road )

[suburbia]

Communities within the ring road do not need to access commuter areas outside the ring road, so while enhanced access is nice to have, they are not driving this.My daily activities confirm that is a lie.

We can have different observations without suggesting the other is lying. I don't know many people other than those who live in Evanston, wanting or needing to go to Evanston.

I am pushing the envelope with the thoughts I've shared, specifically, that communities outside of the ring road maybe should be paying a municipal tax premium (and I see this as a particularly big issue in the far SE commuter communities, but also elsewhere). I would say that there are exceptions, such as places like Rocky Ridge that were already well established - so it is not black and white.

I should not have suggested that the ring road is not of value to people within the ring road perimeter - it most definitely is. However, connecting to communities outside of the ring road is not of much interest. Evanston gaining a connection to the ring road is nice to the people who purchased in that isolated community, but it is of little value to Coventry Hills or what have you.

Places like Evanston and Cranston cost a disproportionately high amount of dollars to connect to, and that is true from a transit perspective, road connections perspective, and utilities perspective.

[msmariner]

We can have different observations without suggesting the other is lying. I don't know many people other than those who live in Evanston, wanting or needing to go to Evanston.

I am pushing the envelope with the thoughts I've shared, specifically, that communities outside of the ring road maybe should be paying a municipal tax premium (and I see this as a particularly big issue in the far SE commuter communities, but also elsewhere). I would say that there are exceptions, such as places like Rocky Ridge that were already well established - so it is not black and white.

I should not have suggested that the ring road is not of value to people within the ring road perimeter - it most definitely is. However, connecting to communities outside of the ring road is not of much interest. Evanston gaining a connection to the ring road is nice to the people who purchased in that isolated community, but it is of little value to Coventry Hills or what have you.

Places like Evanston and Cranston cost a disproportionately high amount of dollars to connect to, and that is true from a transit perspective, road connections perspective, and utilities perspective.

So the 14,000 people who live in panorama or the residents of Livingston or Carrington or even Sage Hill or Nolan Hills won’t be using it? Seems odd that you suggest Evanston residents just pay a surcharge. Have you been up to that area recently. Lot of houses now and a lot more getting built.
The reason we pay taxes as a whole is so projects are built for everyone’s use. If Evanston paid a surcharge then the rest of Calgary (or even Alberta) should pay a toll to use it. That would be stupid so ... so maybe we just go with the general tax base paying

[suburbia]

So the 14,000 people who live in panorama or the residents of Livingston or Carrington or even Sage Hill or Nolan Hills won’t be using it? Seems odd that you suggest Evanston residents just pay a surcharge. Have you been up to that area recently. Lot of houses now and a lot more getting built.
The reason we pay taxes as a whole is so projects are built for everyone’s use. If Evanston paid a surcharge then the rest of Calgary (or even Alberta) should pay a toll to use it. That would be stupid so ... so maybe we just go with the general tax base paying

No one who doesn't live in Evanston will be traveling to Evanston. I'm fine with their being a toll for people to go to Evanston. I would gladly pay all zero times I'll need to go there. Yes, I agree Evanston has lots of houses. With the extra cost load commuter communities like Evanston have on municipal taxes, it is basically a subsidized community. Either pay more tax to cover that extra cost burden you put on the city coffers, or demonstrate you qualify for low income housing.

And btw - there are 25,000 in Panorama, the largest community in the city.

Let's keep the temperature down. No need to get hostile.

[msmariner]

No one who doesn't live in Evanston will be traveling to Evanston. I'm fine with their being a toll for people to go to Evanston. I would gladly pay all zero times I'll need to go there. Yes, I agree Evanston has lots of houses. With the extra cost load commuter communities like Evanston have on municipal taxes, it is basically a subsidized community. Either pay more tax to cover that extra cost burden you put on the city coffers, or demonstrate you qualify for low income housing.

And btw - there are 25,000 in Panorama, the largest community in the city.

Let's keep the temperature down. No need to get hostile.

You are pretty clueless. If one was to get off at 14 st Nw when the interchange is complete Not only can you directly access Evanston. One could go to south to Panorama or North to Carrington or Livingston. Infrastructure is built for current and future communities. Calgary’s future boarders will be km’s North of Stoney in the not to distant future. I just went to a City of Calgary community presentation on the future of 144ave. It’s going to be the future east /west northern communities corridor moving forward and 14st runs right into it just north of Stoney. Many other reasons to build that interchange than just get residents of Evanston out of their community
By the way, have you been up there before or are you just back to “Suburbia” trolling ways. I love great discussions but your grasps of the most basic facts are kinda mind numbing

[Corndogger]

You are pretty clueless. If one was to get off at 14 st Nw when the interchange is complete Not only can you directly access Evanston. One could go to south to Panorama or North to Carrington or Livingston. Infrastructure is built for current and future communities. Calgary’s future boarders will be km’s North of Stoney in the not to distant future. I just went to a City of Calgary community presentation on the future of 144ave. It’s going to be the future east /west northern communities corridor moving forward and 14st runs right into it just north of Stoney. Many other reasons to build that interchange than just get residents of Evanston out of their community
By the way, have you been up there before or are you just back to “Suburbia” trolling ways. I love great discussions but your grasps of the most basic facts are kinda mind numbing

Now that he's a Nenshi insider he's obligated to bash any community that's not near the core.

[speedog]

We can have different observations without suggesting the other is lying. I don't know many people other than those who live in Evanston, wanting or needing to go to Evanston.

I am pushing the envelope with the thoughts I've shared, specifically, that communities outside of the ring road maybe should be paying a municipal tax premium (and I see this as a particularly big issue in the far SE commuter communities, but also elsewhere). I would say that there are exceptions, such as places like Rocky Ridge that were already well established - so it is not black and white.

I should not have suggested that the ring road is not of value to people within the ring road perimeter - it most definitely is. However, connecting to communities outside of the ring road is not of much interest. Evanston gaining a connection to the ring road is nice to the people who purchased in that isolated community, but it is of little value to Coventry Hills or what have you.

Places like Evanston and Cranston cost a disproportionately high amount of dollars to connect to, and that is true from a transit perspective, road connections perspective, and utilities perspective.

So you'll make exceptions for communities like Rocky Ridge, your rules certainly are not black and white, are they? What about Tuscany or Valley Ridge - how do they fit into your ring road dream?

[suburbia]

Calgary’s future boarders will be km’s North of Stoney in the not to distant future. I just went to a City of Calgary community presentation on the future of 144ave. It’s going to be the future east /west northern communities corridor moving forward and 14st runs right into it just north of Stoney.

I hope they curtail the expansion. Extensive commuter community sprawl is really killing the earth. Alternatively, just make it a standard additional premium outside of the existing ring road.

[suburbia]

Now that he's a Nenshi insider he's obligated to bash any community that's not near the core.

Corndogger - you really seem to have quite the boner for the mayor!

And yes, you've pegged me correct. I really would love to live in the Beltline :uhh:

[suburbia]

I already told you that I don't live there but go to Evanston almost daily.

I'm not talking about creekside, which is right along simons valley north of Stoney. I'm talking the actual residential area that is Evanston. It is possible you get babysitting there or something of the sort giving you a reason to go regularly, but that is rare generally speaking. While I shouldn't be categorical, the reality is, very, very, very few people not living in Evanston would go there.

[Mazrim]

I'm not talking about creekside, which is right along simons valley north of Stoney. I'm talking the actual residential area that is Evanston. It is possible you get babysitting there or something of the sort giving you a reason to go regularly, but that is rare generally speaking. While I shouldn't be categorical, the reality is, very, very, very few people not living in Evanston would go there.

Creekside is definitely considered part of Evanston, but congrats on moving the goalposts to suit your needs.

[Rollerstud98]

Does anybody know where to find the new alignment for centre street north through Livingston?

[suburbia]

Does anybody know where to find the new alignment for centre street north through Livingston?

From the City's web-site:
http://www.calgary.ca/PDA/pd/PublishingImages/arp-asp/keystone-hills-asp.jpg
REF: http://www.calgary.ca/PDA/pd/Pages/Current-studies-and-ongoing-activities/Keystone-Hills.aspx

Looks pretty well straight north-south to me.

[Rollerstud98]

Sure does, current path has been closed for months and has trees planted across it now though.

[craner]

Why did they ever close Center Street in Beddington anyway ?

[Rollerstud98]

Traffic calming I’m sure. Pretty tight road in that area.

[Rollerstud98]

Saw some more details, splitting it accommodate the green line running down the middle.

[YYCguys]

Saw some more details, splitting it accommodate the green line running down the middle.

That detour is quite inconvenient and I now avoid that route to travel between Airdrie and Calgary.

Where did you find that informtion? Is there a concept plan for the street/LRT design for that section?

[Rollerstud98]

https://pub-calgary.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=10223

Page 15

I have to take that route for work a lot as our shop is directly north of Livingston on the east side there. Yes it is currently very inconvenient and I’m sure for those living in Livingston as well having all that extra traffic diverted through the neighbourhood.

[YYCguys]

https://pub-calgary.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=10223

Page 15

I have to take that route for work a lot as our shop is directly north of Livingston on the east side there. Yes it is currently very inconvenient and I’m sure for those living in Livingston as well having all that extra traffic diverted through the neighbourhood.

Thank you for providing that! It seems odd that they are doing Centre Street upgrades after the neighbourhood has residences built. Wonder why this wasn’t done previously so as to avoid pissing off the neighbors with increased traffic?!?!

[YYCguys]

Province eyeing variable speed limits for Deerfoot Trail

SHAWN LOGAN
February 25, 2019


Stop-and-go Deerfoot Trail may soon become slow-and-go during peak hours as the province eyes potential innovations to improve traffic flow on Calgary’s primary artery.

Variable speed limits are among a suite of outside-the-box options being considered for the 37.5-kilometre strip of highway running north-south through the heart of the city, whose rush-hour gridlock has long been a frustrating reality for Calgary commuters.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/province-eyeing-variable-speed-limits-for-deerfoot-trail

Anything that can be done to help will be appreciated, although I don’t know if HOV lanes are practical given that there are a lot of 2 lane sections of the highway.

[milomilo]

I have no issue with variable speed limits, but hard infrastructure is needed also. When are the long term recommendations being released? The length of this study has been unbelievable, are they actually doing anything?

[Corndogger]

I have no issue with variable speed limits, but hard infrastructure is needed also. When are the long term recommendations being released? The length of this study has been unbelievable, are they actually doing anything?

IIRC the province was looking at ramp metering and possibly also variable speed limits back in 2005 if not earlier.

Shane Keating needs to either resign or get voted out. He's so out of touch with reality that it's starting to become a huge negative factor in how this city operates. He thinks Deerfoot is only busy a few hours a day? That we can't add lanes? Without adding lanes how is an HOV system going to be implemented? The author of the article should have added in a lot more detail concerning what Washington state did in the Seattle area.

[DoubleK]

I can't believe they haven't funded the basketweave at Southland Dr. Anyone with half a brain knows that would go a long way to fixing SB Deerfoot.

[Mazrim]

I can't believe they haven't funded the basketweave at Southland Dr. Anyone with half a brain knows that would go a long way to fixing SB Deerfoot.

My only issue with the basket weave as it's been proposed is that you'll have Southland traffic merging onto Southbound Deerfoot at the same time that Deerfoot is going from 3 to 2 lanes before the bridge over Anderson. It's still gonna be a mess there in the afternoon until they can get a third lane over Anderson and the Bow River.

[DoubleK]

Still has to be less shitty than the status quo. Have to believe Anderson/Bow Bottom filters enough traffic off of Deerfoot to make some form of improvement.

[Mazrim]

Still has to be less shitty than the status quo. Have to believe Anderson/Bow Bottom filters enough traffic off of Deerfoot to make some form of improvement.

Okay, let's say yes, it will be an improvement. I agree with you. However, it's an expensive band-aid without the extra lane over the river. Is it enough of an improvement to be worth the cost?

[YYCguys]

My only issue with the basket weave as it's been proposed is that you'll have Southland traffic merging onto Southbound Deerfoot at the same time that Deerfoot is going from 3 to 2 lanes before the bridge over Anderson. It's still gonna be a mess there in the afternoon until they can get a third lane over Anderson and the Bow River.

Sounds like the two will have to be built in tandem to make actual and economic sense. Hope the City recognizes and therefore simultaneously funds and builds both projects.

[msmariner]

Sounds like the two will have to be built in tandem to make actual and economic sense. Hope the City recognizes and therefore simultaneously funds and builds both projects.

Nothing to do with the City. Provincial highway. Their project/funding

[Mazrim]

Nothing to do with the City. Provincial highway. Their project/funding

We'll see for how long it remains a provincial responsibility...

[Corndogger]

We'll see for how long it remains a provincial responsibility...

Hopefully forever. It never should have been a city responsibility in the first place. All of the horrible design decisions on Deerfoot are thanks to the city. The last thing the province should want is to risk making that road even worse.

[YYCguys]

Nothing to do with the City. Provincial highway. Their project/funding

Oops sorry, I thought it was City responsibility now. My apologies.

[Corndogger]

Nothing to do with the City. Provincial highway. Their project/funding

But the City could chip in financially. Isn't the City paying for 1/3 of the 212 Avenue S.E. interchange? Have they started to build that interchange yet? I haven't been out there for ages so it could be done for all I know.

[DoubleK]

Girders were up at 212 last time I went by, so they're reasonably far along.


The exit from SB into Cranston was open a couple weeks ago when I drove by.

I was shocked to see it open with the massive amount of construction yet to go.

[Corndogger]

The exit from SB into Cranston was open a couple weeks ago when I drove by.

I was shocked to see it open with the massive amount of construction yet to go.

According to the province the entire project is supposed to open this fall. Limited south to westbound access opened on October 26, 2018 so you would have been shocked if you had drove by then.

[suburbia]

Hope the City recognizes and therefore simultaneously funds and builds both projects.Nothing to do with the City. Provincial highway. Their project/fundingthe City could chip in financially.

So you're advocating increasing municipal taxes. I don't think that will go over well in a largely fiscally conservative city.

[Corndogger]

So you're advocating increasing municipal taxes. I don't think that will go over well in a largely fiscally conservative city.

Chip in to get a project started sooner than much later. The City is apparently paying to build the interchange and then will be repaid 2/3 of the cost by the province and the developer by 2024. The large amount of development should result in a nice bump to the tax base for the city which should more than cover it's ~$13 million share of the cost. Fiscally smart people will not oppose such investments and roads are always at the top of the list when it comes to what people want.

[suburbia]

Chip in to get a project started sooner than much later. The City is apparently paying to build the interchange and then will be repaid 2/3 of the cost by the province and the developer by 2024. The large amount of development should result in a nice bump to the tax base for the city which should more than cover it's ~$13 million share of the cost. Fiscally smart people will not oppose such investments and roads are always at the top of the list when it comes to what people want.

So wait. You're saying, unless we increases taxes now and fully pay for things that are in the buckets of other levels of government, we won't get an increase in developments (which themselves will required infrastructure upgrades and municipal servicing costs) in a decades time. :shrug:

[milomilo]

So you're advocating increasing municipal taxes. I don't think that will go over well in a largely fiscally conservative city.

That doesn't necessarily have to be true. We seem to be building multiple interchanges at a time for the last few years so we must have money to spend on roads. Once this set up construction is done, what do allocate future spending to?

There are a number of major problems with the road network in Calgary, and Deerfoot between 16 Ave and BBT is one of them, although personally I'm not sure it is my highest priority.

[Corndogger]

That doesn't necessarily have to be true. We seem to be building multiple interchanges at a time for the last few years so we must have money to spend on roads. Once this set up construction is done, what do allocate future spending to?

There are a number of major problems with the road network in Calgary, and Deerfoot between 16 Ave and BBT is one of them, although personally I'm not sure it is my highest priority.

I have no idea where he was getting that I was advocating raising taxes. If we can speed up a project and get others to help pay for it then we should definitely think about shifting money around. That will help to fund other road projects in the future.

There's a lot road wise that needs to be fixed/upgraded in this city. I'd like to see Crowchild fully upgraded in one shot. Voting out Druh is probably needed first but I have a feeling that once the first phase opens this fall people will be clamoring for more to be done.

[DoubleK]

According to the province the entire project is supposed to open this fall. Limited south to westbound access opened on October 26, 2018 so you would have been shocked if you had drove by then.

I golf in Okotoks and hadn't been past there since early September.

I'm shocked that they would be smart enough to do a partial opening, is there something wrong with that statement?

[msmariner]

The exit from SB into Cranston was open a couple weeks ago when I drove by.

I was shocked to see it open with the massive amount of construction yet to go.

The SB ramp into Cranston was open in early fall. It probably was pushed thru early to allow access into Cranston from the w/b to s/b Stoney traffic. They had exit at 52st before to get to Cranston. Maybe some pressure from politicians to get that open early

[ImmortalHawk]

Girders were up at 212 last time I went by, so they're reasonably far along.

Re: the Bow Bottom complex... that is a MEGAproject when they decide to undertake it. Not sure I agree with the notion that the Southland basketweave is useless until you fix the megaplex, cause fuck knows when we'll have money to fix the megaplex.

I don't see any huge variance in the design of the basketweave in terms of the options for rebuilding the megaplex.

I just feel like the Anderson/BBT/Deerfoot mess could be avoided if we could design the interchange to be similar to the one at Peigan/Barlow/Deerfoot. The whole situation is similar in its essence. If they could design it like that, it would save so much time, money, and land. The monstrosity at Anderson and BBT is already horrible, so the city should redesign the whole spaghetti of an interchange AND close the access to Lafarge. Why need it?! If they need access, why not just use the access from Southland, and not link it to Anderson/BBT. Only an idiot would stick an extra access road in the middle of an already-complicated interchange for drivers.

[ImmortalHawk]

BBT/Anderson together, at Deerfoot, are double the traffic of Barlow/Peigan together at Deerfoot. If you're sending the city into chaos to rebuild that megaplex, you sure as hell aren't making it worse by putting a horrific intersection (that currently fails at Barlow/Peigan) to handle double the traffic and replace what is currently a freeflow complex.

The only thing really wrong with the megaplex is that mainline Deerfoot reduces to 2 lanes, and turning radii.

Yes, then again, you may be right. So how would you propose the changes to be made?

[CTrainDude]

I'm certainly no expert - are those extensions what they're using on the Bow Trail/Crowchild interchange Acey?

[suburbia]

I have no idea where he was getting that I was advocating raising taxes. If we can speed up a project and get others to help pay for it then we should definitely think about shifting money around.

Okay, so you are not advocating raising taxes but instead "shifting money around". What areas are you going to cut so that Calgary can fund improvements to a provincial road?

LOL!!!

[Corndogger]

Okay, so you are not advocating raising taxes but instead "shifting money around". What areas are you going to cut so that Calgary can fund improvements to a provincial role?

LOL!!!

It took you five hours to come up with that insult? Read what's being said and respond to that not to what you make up so you can insult me. The money was already allocated to roads so no cutting is needed. They're actually saving money. Pay attention FFS.

[milomilo]

I'm certainly no expert - are those extensions what they're using on the Bow Trail/Crowchild interchange Acey?

As far as I remember from looking underneath in the summer, the principle is the same as the Edmonton example but Crowchild is fully concrete in appearance rather than exposed metal.

[milomilo]

BBT/Anderson together, at Deerfoot, are double the traffic of Barlow/Peigan together at Deerfoot. If you're sending the city into chaos to rebuild that megaplex, you sure as hell aren't making it worse by putting a horrific intersection (that currently fails at Barlow/Peigan) to handle double the traffic and replace what is currently a freeflow complex.

The only thing really wrong with the megaplex is that mainline Deerfoot reduces to 2 lanes, and turning radii.

What's your definition of failure? Barlow Peigan works fine with the current levels of traffic, if that is your bar of failure then every intersection in the city is a failure at rush hour.

While if I were to design the BBT interchange from scratch it wouldn't be the abomination they made, I agree there is no real need to change it up completely now. The primary consideration is making Deerfoot consistent and smoother, everything else is a a distant secondary objective. So widen the bridge and add basketweaves, as you say.

[ken0042]

Yes, then again, you may be right. So how would you propose the changes to be made?

The one "easy" fix for NB Deerfoot at Anderson, BBT, Southland- have the traffic for Southland exit prior to Anderson, going through the old gravel quarry. That would only involve the following:
- dirt ramp and road from Deerfoot to Southland.
- Basketweave bridge for traffic from 18th street onto NB Deerfoot. (As it would move the choke point back otherwise.)

It would eliminate the at grade weaving that has to happen currently just before Southland.

[MalcolmTucker]

Given the flows, I wonder what is really realistic over and above making sure Deerfoot has 3 through lanes. https://i.imgur.com/viyK5s3.png

[MalcolmTucker]

3 through lanes doesn't fix anything unless there's basketweaves both ways.
If too many people are entering onto Deerfoot, much easier just to meter the ramps?

[MalcolmTucker]

Easier, and also many orders of magnitude less effective than building a basketweave.


Most of the other interchanges on Deerfoot are effectively metered in some way by traffic lights. What makes these ones special?

[Corndogger]

Most of the other interchanges on Deerfoot are effectively metered in some way by traffic lights. What makes these ones special?

Way too many movements happening at the same time within a short amount of space. Some of them need to be separated for safety reasons and to help keep traffic moving.

[DoubleK]

As much as my uneducated brain thinks that metering would be helpful, I shudder at the thought of how icy they'd get in winter.

[Corndogger]

Fixing and expanding Deerfoot might be a PITA but look at what they're planning to do in Houston. A complete Deerfoot redesign and expansion would be a piece of cake. We can do this folks!

TB1tDoD-QpM

[suburbia]

.

[milomilo]

Good thing he wasn't suggesting that then.

[suburbia]

Fixing and expanding Deerfoot might be a PITA but look at what they're planning to do in Houston. A complete Deerfoot redesign and expansion would be a piece of cake. We can do this folks!


Houston is the absolute worst touchstone for what we'd want Calgary to become. There is zero ability to walk around that place. Horrible urban planning and design. The only good thing going on there is the Bayou project.

Look at this screen cap from the video you posted. They are making their downtown an absolute concrete disaster, with 10 miles of toll roads!

https://i.imgur.com/26rFAAc.jpg

[suburbia]

so at this stage there's no real point in saying "don't look at Houston". We already did and will continue to do so, among others.

Thanks. Was just responding to Corndogger's post about "look at Houston - we can do it too!" - perhaps he was just referring to the road use taxes they will be employing, which appear similar to what Jason wants to levy.

[Corndogger]

Thanks. Was just responding to Corndogger's post about "look at Houston - we can do it too!" - perhaps he was just referring to the road use taxes they will be employing, which appear similar to what Jason wants to levy.

My point was we need to start work on the project. Some people make it sound like the city would grind to a halt if we did a major overhaul and expansion of Deerfoot but I don't think that would be the case.

[milomilo]

Thanks. Was just responding to Corndogger's post about "look at Houston - we can do it too!" - perhaps he was just referring to the road use taxes they will be employing, which appear similar to what Jason wants to levy.

Why do you deliberately misread people's posts? I'm sure he just meant that building large projects is possible, and fixing Deerfoot will be a large project, even if it does not end up making Calgary into Houston.

[Corndogger]

Why do you deliberately misread people's posts? I'm sure he just meant that building large projects is possible, and fixing Deerfoot will be a large project, even if it does not end up making Calgary into Houston.

This^.

[DoubleK]

My point was we need to start work on the project. Some people make it sound like the city would grind to a halt if we did a major overhaul and expansion of Deerfoot but I don't think that would be the case.

With Stoney Trail in place, I could see a scenario where they close the south portions of Deerfoot for periods of time to get some of the work done without completely paralyzing the city.

Something like southbound traffic uses Blackfoot Trail and northbound traffic takes Barlow.

[Mazrim]

With Stoney Trail in place, I could see a scenario where they close the south portions of Deerfoot for periods of time to get some of the work done without completely paralyzing the city.

Something like southbound traffic uses Blackfoot Trail and northbound traffic takes Barlow.

That would never happen. Stoney is too far from Deerfoot to make it a viable alternative for many trips in the city. Blackfoot and Barlow are too important to the overall city road network to be fundamentally changing their flow. They have too many accesses and businesses along them to be one-way as well - the business owners would undoubtedly lose customers during that kind of detour.

They have successfully done lots of work on Deerfoot without closing it, and will continue to do so in the future.

[suburbia]

Why do you deliberately misread people's posts?

There was no part of that post that was mis-read. The Houston touchstone was not random, rather was followed by an explicit statement that "we can do IT too".

And it really has nothing to do with you. I'm unclear why you're insisting on fanning flames even where none existed initially.

[Rollerstud98]

There was no part of that post that was mis-read. The Houston touchstone was not random, rather was followed by an explicit statement that "we can do IT too".

And it really has nothing to do with you. I'm unclear why you're insisting on fanning flames even where none existed initially.

Because you deliberately misread and misrepresent what was said.

[milomilo]

There was no part of that post that was mis-read. The Houston touchstone was not random, rather was followed by an explicit statement that "we can do IT too".

And it really has nothing to do with you. I'm unclear why you're insisting on fanning flames even where none existed initially.

Because you have done this on many occasions. Rather than spending a second to think about the reasons a poster wrote something, you choose to interpret posts in the worst possible light.

[Corndogger]

Because you have done this on many occasions. Rather than spending a second to think about the reasons a poster wrote something, you choose to interpret posts in the worst possible light.

I've come to the conclusion that Suburbia has acquired full immunity here. He's free to troll, personally attack other posts, campaign, etc. as much as he wants.

[suburbia]

I've come to the conclusion that Suburbia has acquired full immunity here. He's free to troll, personally attack other posts, campaign, etc. as much as he wants.

Corndogger - the fact I pick up on undertones and shine a light on them is not grounds for dismissal. On this particular topic, you've had ample opportunity to respond to my original comment and clarify what you meant if indeed it was misunderstood, but you've not done that.

[Corndogger]

Corndogger - the fact I pick up on undertones and shine a light on them is not grounds for dismissal. On this particular topic, you've had ample opportunity to respond to my original comment and clarify what you meant if indeed it was misunderstood, but you've not done that.

You make shit up and then big a stink about it trying to make other people look bad. As for your comment about Deerfoot it doesn't deserve a reply. Everyone else knew exactly what I was talking about but you. Well, you probably did to but you couldn't resist the urge to go off on a tangent to make a stupid political point and a take a shot.

[suburbia]

You make shit up and then big a stink about it trying to make other people look bad.

What did I make up exactly?

As for your comment about Deerfoot it doesn't deserve a reply. Everyone else knew exactly what I was talking about but you. Well, you probably did to but you couldn't resist the urge to go off on a tangent to make a stupid political point and a take a shot.

I clearly do not get what you were talking about as I understood it as you being thumbs up about Houston's new toll road highways (which you posted a video about) and then said something to the effect that we can do it too. So what exactly were you trying to say if not to suggest using Houston as a touchstone? What was the point of the Houston video? Saying that you will not comment on my response is a cop out, and you know it. You need to be more resilient in a "discussion forum".

[craner]

For the record,
I understood what Corndogger meant - milomilo summerized it perfectly to which Corndogger replied "^This".

Just checked the City website and noticed the Crowchild & Glenmore improvements are due to be completed by the end of 2019.
Will be great to be driving on these improved routes by this time next year.
:banana:

[suburbia]

For the record,
I understood what Corndogger meant

Which was what? Why was there a Houston video posted, with the statement, "we can do this"?

[craner]

:facepalm:

[Corndogger]

For the record,
I understood what Corndogger meant - milomilo summerized it perfectly to which Corndogger replied "^This".

Just checked the City website and noticed the Crowchild & Glenmore improvements are due to be completed by the end of 2019.
Will be great to be driving on these improved routes by this time next year.
:banana:

I hope when they're done that stretch where the speed limit is down to 50 has 6 lanes that are as wide as the rest of the road and the speed limit is back to at least 80.

[milomilo]

Which was what? Why was there a Houston video posted, with the statement, "we can do this"?

Everyone else managed to read it fine, he said "A complete Deerfoot redesign and expansion would be a piece of cake. We can do this folks!". To me, it's quite clear the 'this' he was referring to was Deerfoot redesign, not turning Calgary into Houston.

[suburbia]

You missed some important parts of his post MiloMilo. And you didn't answer the Q on why he posted the media on the toll accessible Houston monstrosity.

Here is what he ACTUALLY said:

Fixing and expanding Deerfoot might be a PITA but look at what they're planning to do in Houston. A complete Deerfoot redesign and expansion would be a piece of cake. We can do this folks!
https://i.imgur.com/26rFAAcl.jpg

[milomilo]

As I said, you are deliberately misreading, rather than read a post assuming their best intention, you read it assuming their worst. If this was a one off incident I'd give you the benefit of the doubt, but you've done it so many times that pleading innocence doesn't stick.

That's all I'll say on this matter, because you will keep doing it regardless.

[suburbia]

As I said, you are deliberately misreading, rather than read a post assuming their best intention, you read it assuming their worst. If this was a one off incident I'd give you the benefit of the doubt, but you've done it so many times that pleading innocence doesn't stick.

That's all I'll say on this matter, because you will keep doing it regardless.

If he wasn't attempting to draw our attention to the Houston example, why was a video posted and why did he speak about Houston (in the sentence you chose not to quote)?

[Rollerstud98]

Everybody just block suburbia the useless troll. Suburbia you are a garbage forum user and should be banned by the forum.

[DoubleK]

Everybody just block suburbia the useless troll. Suburbia you are a garbage forum user and should be banned by the forum.

People keep baiting him and he can't help himself.

[msmariner]

You guys are all idiots. There are cool projects in Calgary and all you do is bicker like a bunch of kids. Either move on or talk about the thread. It’s roads!
The last project I remember on Deerfoot itself (besides the BRT bridge at 17ave) was between beddington and 64th. Things went quite smooth with that project. The building of the 4 interchanges and the expansion of the freeway between Douglasglen and McKenzie Lake, although taking nearly a decade went quite smooth as well. No matter what the shirt term pain any of the potential projects will help the flow of Deerfoot