Calgary Roads

[craner]

Yep - saw the electronic signs for this yesterday on 10th Ave. under Bow Tr. :tup:

[lubicon]

The changes are certainly welcome and long overdue but it's mixed emotions for me. My commute is now completely messed up for the next two years at least. Major construction along the only two roads I could use.

[Corndogger]

Yep - saw the electronic signs for this yesterday on 10th Ave. under Bow Tr. :tup:

Those signs have been there for awhile but only started giving the exact date earlier this week. I've also seen workers down around the area where when heading west on 10 Ave. you can either go on to Bow Trail West or Crowchild North. There seems to be some type of utilities hidden away in some of the pillars that they were looking at. I'm assuming that this will probably have to either be moved or replaced in another location.

[Corndogger]

The changes are certainly welcome and long overdue but it's mixed emotions for me. My commute is now completely messed up for the next two years at least. Major construction along the only two roads I could use.

Traffic is bad most times of the day on that road and now it will be a nightmare. I really wish they wouldn't lower the speed limit so much. I'm sure the workers will be protected by huge concrete barriers and will probably be safer than other drivers. And why is the speed being reduced all the way to 16 Ave. NW now? The BRT ramp construction isn't slated to start until Q3 2018. And is that ramp just going to be for buses or for everyone?

Also, are there any detailed drawings of how project #6 is going to work? The way it reads one could interpret it to mean that the new ramp from NB Crowchild to EB Memorial will dump the traffic onto the left-hand side of EB Memorial which doesn't sound optimal.

[Mazrim]

Traffic is bad most times of the day on that road and now it will be a nightmare. I really wish they wouldn't lower the speed limit so much. I'm sure the workers will be protected by huge concrete barriers and will probably be safer than other drivers. And why is the speed being reduced all the way to 16 Ave. NW now? The BRT ramp construction isn't slated to start until Q3 2018. And is that ramp just going to be for buses or for everyone?

Also, are there any detailed drawings of how project #6 is going to work? The way it reads one could interpret it to mean that the new ramp from NB Crowchild to EB Memorial will dump the traffic onto the left-hand side of EB Memorial which doesn't sound optimal.

I agree with you that extending the 50km/h zone to 16th Avenue seems like a waste of time. Doesn't seem like it needs to go that far at all. For the rest of the project, there will be narrowed lanes everywhere so 50km/h makes a lot of sense. I don't know if there will be room around Kensington for barriers though, so it's definitely important there.

The new ramp at 16th Avenue is for everyone, and you're correct that the new Memorial ramp will connect on the left side. It's not ideal but it's certainly better than what's out there today. The distance from the traffic coming on from Bow Trail and 10th Avenue to the exit to Memorial is really short, and this makes that distance a bit longer.

[milomilo]

The changes are certainly welcome and long overdue but it's mixed emotions for me. My commute is now completely messed up for the next two years at least. Major construction along the only two roads I could use.

Imagine the chaos when (hopefully not if) they do the remaining upgrades north of the river!

[MasterG]

Edmonton's roads are also a joke, but there's no single interchange in Edmonton as embarrassing and detrimental to the overall road system as Crow/Bow is to Calgary's. Instead, Edmonton just carries its traffic on surface streets and lacks interchanges, period.

Hyperbole alert. Calgary's traffic is nothing compared to almost any other city in North America, even of cities similar to our size. Recall, Edmonton has saved hundreds of millions of capital and operating costs by this decision (at the expense of real/perceived traffic delays and their associated hard-to-calculate costs).

Of course, there are intersections that benefit overall from being grade-separated. But that is not all intersections. Nor does grade separation and high-speed/"non-embarrassing and detrimental" interchanges guarantee a good city of low traffic congestion, vibrant neighbourhoods and economically sustainable places

Golden rule of complaining that they should put in a better interchange: 30 years ago another person just like you was complaining with the same hyperbolic attitude about how embarrassing the road had been designed/planned/built. 30 years from now some other guy will be moaning about whatever you proposed was so short-sighted and terribly thought out.

[milomilo]

Hyperbole alert. Calgary's traffic is nothing compared to almost any other city in North America, even of cities similar to our size. Recall, Edmonton has saved hundreds of millions of capital and operating costs by this decision (at the expense of real/perceived traffic delays and their associated hard-to-calculate costs).

Of course, there are intersections that benefit overall from being grade-separated. But that is not all intersections. Nor does grade separation and high-speed/"non-embarrassing and detrimental" interchanges guarantee a good city of low traffic congestion, vibrant neighbourhoods and economically sustainable places

Golden rule of complaining that they should put in a better interchange: 30 years ago another person just like you was complaining with the same hyperbolic attitude about how embarrassing the road had been designed/planned/built. 30 years from now some other guy will be moaning about whatever you proposed was so short-sighted and terribly thought out.

To add to what Acey said, he was responding to a comment I'd made that Crowchild/Bow Trail is the single worst piece of infrastructure I've ever seen, and probably on the planet. OK, that is hyperbole, but I'd love to see any examples of anything worse...

If we're allowed to criticize past city builders for other bad aspects of the city like uncontrolled, subsidized urban sprawl, why not for their awful road designs? As I said in response to the Crowchild/Bow Trail joke of an interchange - they'd have been better off building nothing at all as they clearly had no idea what they were doing, it's literally like they deliberately went out of their way to make it as bad as possible. A simple diamond would have probably worked fine and stood the test of time, although they could have done with giving us an extra lane on the bridge, saving future Calgary $97M.

The previous paragraph applies to many other roads in Calgary and Edmonton - previous city builders would have done us a favour to leave out their awful interchanges which were probably (poorly) overbuilt at the time and leave them for a few decades for more knowledgeable people to design. Deerfoot/BBT/Anderson is another example of an interchange that is overbuilt poorly yet functions terribly.

Overall what I think is previous city builders could have saved money and left us with a better functioning road network if they'd either had a little foresight or just not bothered at all and left some of their interchanges as signalised intersections with room to spare.

[craner]

but the point remains that a significant number of people who have to deal with Crow/Bow on anything resembling a daily basis would not think it's hyperbolic to refer to it as clusterfuck, embarrassing, and highly detrimental to our road system.
^This.

[lubicon]

Trinity Hills interchange (Sarcee, adjacent to the TCH) appears to be close to being finished. Most if not all the final traffic movements are now open, and lines are painted. Still traffic cones and a 50k speed limit and a few obvious things to be done but they might just get this one wrapped up before winter which would be sweet. Northbound traffic has been a gong show the past couple of weeks as traffic patterns were changing on an almost daily basis but now with all traffic movements open it was flowing much better yesterday and hopefully it won't take people long to adjust to the new pattern.

With that one and the Bowfort Road interchange finishing it will we sweet to get that stretch of road back up to it's normal speed limit.

[msmariner]

Trinity Hills interchange (Sarcee, adjacent to the TCH) appears to be close to being finished. Most if not all the final traffic movements are now open, and lines are painted. Still traffic cones and a 50k speed limit and a few obvious things to be done but they might just get this one wrapped up before winter which would be sweet. Northbound traffic has been a gong show the past couple of weeks as traffic patterns were changing on an almost daily basis but now with all traffic movements open it was flowing much better yesterday and hopefully it won't take people long to adjust to the new pattern.

With that one and the Bowfort Road interchange finishing it will we sweet to get that stretch of road back up to it's normal speed limit.

Most of the work has been finished for the season. The old bridge over 16th ave will have a rehab done to it next year. So all the work leading up to, over and past it will be finished after that is complete

[DoubleK]

... it will be sweet to get that stretch of road back up to it's normal speed limit.

They seem to take their sweet time doing this. McLeod and 162nd still hasn't been restored to 80 and work has been done for several weeks. The biggest pissoff is that CPS is still sitting there pulling people over.

The cones are still out, the only thing that visibly to be missing is an overhead sign on the Millrise overpass. All of the grading is complete, line markings are all done and seeding happened a couple weeks ago. Perhaps there are some punch list deficiencies to be cleaned up, but other than that I can't see why they wouldn't restore the speed limit.

[craner]

In the spirit of complaining, here is one of mine:
Why is it sooo hard to have continuous thru lanes in this city ?
The newly constructed Glenmore bridges over Ogden Road & the rail tracks start with 3 lanes and then reduce down to 2 for no apparent reason.
Also, heading west there are 3 lanes coming off the new bridge until the 18 St. overpass where we lose a lane under the bridge - Grrrr. :hell:

On a positive note, I was excited to see the City is planning to start work on widening/rebuilding Glenmore Tr. SW in Spring 2018. :awesome:

[Corndogger]

In the spirit of complaining, here is one of mine:
Why is it sooo hard to have continuous thru lanes in this city ?
The newly constructed Glenmore bridges over Ogden Road & the rail tracks start with 3 lanes and then reduce down to 2 for no apparent reason.
Also, heading west there are 3 lanes coming off the new bridge until the 18 St. overpass where we lose a lane under the bridge - Grrrr. :hell:

On a positive note, I was excited to see the City is planning to start work on widening/rebuilding Glenmore Tr. SW in Spring 2018. :awesome:

That seems to happen a lot here. I believe the reason for that stupidity is to lower the project cost which makes the politicians of the day look good to some. Of course down the road when the road needs to be expanded they often have to rebuild the bridges which totally defeats the purpose of being cheap in the first place.

Exactly what part of Glenmore are they expanding? I hope it's from east of Crowchild to where Glenmore turns into Sarcee.

[milomilo]

In the spirit of complaining, here is one of mine:
Why is it sooo hard to have continuous thru lanes in this city ?
The newly constructed Glenmore bridges over Ogden Road & the rail tracks start with 3 lanes and then reduce down to 2 for no apparent reason.
Also, heading west there are 3 lanes coming off the new bridge until the 18 St. overpass where we lose a lane under the bridge - Grrrr. :hell:

On a positive note, I was excited to see the City is planning to start work on widening/rebuilding Glenmore Tr. SW in Spring 2018. :awesome:

I don't don't get it either but it would appear to be a design philosophy- it's not accidentally wrong, it's wrong on purpose. The brand new sections of the Anthony Henday are the same - the right lane constantly appears and disappears with very little logic to it.

The problem is then that you never know whether the right hand lane is a true lane or simply an extended merge lane. If they would at least mark lane divisions properly so that you knew which lanes were through lanes and which were exits it would be better, but they don't. The other thing is, IMO if there is a lane to be added or taken away, it should be the left lane where this happens rather than the right to encourage good lane discipline. But instead it is always the right lane that changes.

All this means that nobody ever drives in the right lane, they just sit it in the place of least resistance. So basically 33% of our 3 lane freeways are a waste of money.

[craner]

Exactly what part of Glenmore are they expanding? I hope it's from east of Crowchild to where Glenmore turns into Sarcee.

That's it basically although the Sarcee end is being done by the province as part of the SW RR

[msmariner]

In the spirit of complaining, here is one of mine:
Why is it sooo hard to have continuous thru lanes in this city ?
The newly constructed Glenmore bridges over Ogden Road & the rail tracks start with 3 lanes and then reduce down to 2 for no apparent reason.
Also, heading west there are 3 lanes coming off the new bridge until the 18 St. overpass where we lose a lane under the bridge - Grrrr. :hell:

On a positive note, I was excited to see the City is planning to start work on widening/rebuilding Glenmore Tr. SW in Spring 2018. :awesome:

I think the EB lane drop east of the canal on glenmore is for the future Barlow interchange. The centre of Glenmore splits apart quickly there and the moves to the south. If and when the Barlow interchange is built it will be three lanes all the way through that section

[PPAR]

That's it basically although the Sarcee end is being done by the province as part of the SW RR

This is great to hear. Glenmore west of Crowchild has volume related slowdowns 80% of the day and is stop and go every rush hour. It is one of the most overcapacity stretches of road in the city.

[milomilo]

Henday NE lane drops are entirely logical, and in fact there are no lane drops except at either end of the project.

Southbound Deerfoot at 16 Ave... literally the busiest section of road west of Ontario and it inexplicably crunches down from 4 to 3 lanes for no reason. Good job boys.

Sorry, it was Henday SE I was thinking of rather than the NE although I think that section is still pretty new?

I'm sure these roads have been built to a standard which the writer thinks is logical, but it's the standards themselves I disagree with as they sometimes fail to take into account the behavior of the people driving on them.

The correct way to drive on freeways is to keep right all the time unless overtaking. If a lane opens up on the right - move into it and if it is ending move back close to the merge. But I'd say literally less than 5% of drivers drive this way, and instead will just pick the easiest option. If they know the lane on the right will end in 10km, then they'll just immediately move into the middle lane as soon as they enter. If their exit is off one of our crappy uncontrolled prairie left turns, then the same thing they'll just sit in the left lane. If a climbing lane opens up on the right, they'll stay in the middle lane even if they're a truck doing 80.

This means that the way our roads are designed with lanes randomly appearing and disappearing on the right doesn't work. Nobody uses that lane and essentially most three lane upgrades are a waste of money in this province. It should be the left lane which is added, as this then gives people the option to overtake if neccesary, or stay in lane if it isn't. Then end the left lane when needed, and force people right.

[milomilo]

I think the EB lane drop east of the canal on glenmore is for the future Barlow interchange. The centre of Glenmore splits apart quickly there and the moves to the south. If and when the Barlow interchange is built it will be three lanes all the way through that section

That doesn't explain the westbound lane drop though which makes no sense whatsoever. Unfortunately the roads built for the city are usually worse than those designed by the province.

Hopefully the province keeps control of Deerfoot and comes up with a good plan to fix portions of it.

[craner]

This is from the City website:

The City is widening Glenmore Trail to six lanes between 37 Street and Crowchild Trail S.W. and modifying the Glenmore Trail/Crowchild Trail S.W. interchange. These upgrades will provide for a better road network by accommodating changes to traffic volume and patterns that are expected after the opening of the Southwest Ring Road (SWRR).
Project update
The design work for the Glenmore Trail widening and interchange upgrades are scheduled to begin in late 2017, with construction planned to start in 2018 and continuing into 2019. We will coordinate with utility groups and the Government of Alberta throughout the entire design process and will continue updating the community and area as the project progresses.
About the project
The widening of Glenmore Trail to six lanes between 37 Street and Crowchild Trail S.W. will provide better access to and from the SWRR and improvements to the overall transportation network. The upgrade to the Glenmore Trail/Crowchild Trail S.W. interchange will modify the current interchange to manage traffic that’s moving east to north and south to west. The City is responsible for the design and construction of this project because it is located within city limits. This project includes the following features:
Increasing Glenmore Trail from four to six lanes between 37 Street and Crowchild Trail S.W. as well as rebuilding this aging section of road.
Modify the interchange for short-term improvements to help accommodate opening day traffic volumes.
Remove the pedestrian bridge over Crowchild Trail just south of 54 Avenue S.W. and construct a new pedestrian bridge over Crowchild Trail at 54 Avenue S.W.
A noise study to determine if noise barriers are required, as guided by The City’s Surface Noise Policy.
A City study to update the long-term plans for the Glenmore Trail/Crowchild Trail S.W. interchange will occur in the future.
Design
The following drawing shows an overall view of the area and how it will integrate to the SWRR. We will update this section with designs as they become available and progress.
Project timeline
Design: Late 2017 - spring 2018
Construction: Spring 2018 - fall 2019
Road completion: Fall 2019
Calgary’s southwest ring road


Based on this I think 5seconds is right (i.e. Only 2 lanes under the Crowchild bridge eastbound). Sounds like there will be a future "long term" design study to follow.

[msmariner]

That doesn't explain the westbound lane drop though which makes no sense whatsoever. Unfortunately the roads built for the city are usually worse than those designed by the province.

Hopefully the province keeps control of Deerfoot and comes up with a good plan to fix portions of it.

That’s hilarious. The province can’t dump Deerfoot on the city fast enough. At least the city is smart enough to realize the province isn’t going to fund any much needed small or large large projects in the imediate future. The province can keep the mess until they fund its improvements

[lubicon]

In the spirit of complaining, here is one of mine:
Why is it sooo hard to have continuous thru lanes in this city ?
The newly constructed Glenmore bridges over Ogden Road & the rail tracks start with 3 lanes and then reduce down to 2 for no apparent reason.
Also, heading west there are 3 lanes coming off the new bridge until the 18 St. overpass where we lose a lane under the bridge - Grrrr. :hell:


Stupid is what it is. But at least they have finally finished construction here (despite what they claimed a few months ago), construction zone on Glenmore is gone and the speed limit is back up to 80 now. So that is one positive I suppose.

[Tobyoby]

I'm so glad I can walk to work and not have to live the nightmare of vehicle commutes.

[Mazrim]

I've realized this bullshit behaviour is why SB Deerfoot at Beddington is a disaster every morning. Four through lanes continue under 64 Ave, but coming off Beddington people panic and force their way into the left three lanes at almost a complete stop because that 4th lane ends a kilometer later at McKnight.

This is a driver behavior problem, not a road design problem. It's the same as not utilizing a 1 km long merge lane properly. Instead of blaming those who are building roads to maximize their throughput through accepted design methods, we should be pushing more driver education campaigns.

Left lane merges are more detrimental to network wide traffic flow than the right lane merges people seem to hate so much. Since 95% of all entrances and exits are on the right hand side, all the acceleration and deceleration happens on the right side, so it technically makes the most sense to have all the lane drops on the same side where there is already turbulence. If you have them on the left side, you get traffic slowing down in what should be the highest speed through lane.

The concept of basic lanes and lane balance is a fairly well known one for road design. Dropping a lane in advance of a ramp coming onto the road is a way to maintain lane balance but can interrupt the number of basic lanes. However, in the Glenmore example, if you look at the Deerfoot, 18 Street and Ogden interchanges, you only actually have 2 basic lanes in each direction, therefore the lane drops are actually correct, regardless of how frustrating they may seem to you.

The only way to keep three lanes in each direction and maintain lane balance between tightly spaced interchanges would require a much larger overall change to Glenmore over a longer distance, say from Blackfoot to Stoney. Then you could safely say Glenmore has 3 basic lanes in each direction from 14 Street to SE Stoney, which has a much greater effect on network traffic flow than just fixing one or two interchanges.

[milomilo]

This is a driver behavior problem, not a road design problem. It's the same as not utilizing a 1 km long merge lane properly. Instead of blaming those who are building roads to maximize their throughput through accepted design methods, we should be pushing more driver education campaigns.

Left lane merges are more detrimental to network wide traffic flow than the right lane merges people seem to hate so much. Since 95% of all entrances and exits are on the right hand side, all the acceleration and deceleration happens on the right side, so it technically makes the most sense to have all the lane drops on the same side where there is already turbulence. If you have them on the left side, you get traffic slowing down in what should be the highest speed through lane.

The concept of basic lanes and lane balance is a fairly well known one for road design. Dropping a lane in advance of a ramp coming onto the road is a way to maintain lane balance but can interrupt the number of basic lanes. However, in the Glenmore example, if you look at the Deerfoot, 18 Street and Ogden interchanges, you only actually have 2 basic lanes in each direction, therefore the lane drops are actually correct, regardless of how frustrating they may seem to you.

The only way to keep three lanes in each direction and maintain lane balance between tightly spaced interchanges would require a much larger overall change to Glenmore over a longer distance, say from Blackfoot to Stoney. Then you could safely say Glenmore has 3 basic lanes in each direction from 14 Street to SE Stoney, which has a much greater effect on network traffic flow than just fixing one or two interchanges.

But Glenmore should be a three lane road the whole way through! These combined entry/exit lanes that are so common here just don't work in practise, whether designers like it or not people won't behave the way they hope they will. But because the road, and every other in the province, has so many lane drops and adds on the right hand side nobody bothers to use it. It might as well not exist.

Blaming the drivers is lazy. Sure, education isn't great but all of the roads are designed on purpose to encourage bad behaviour.

[speedog]

I've realized this bullshit behaviour is why SB Deerfoot at Beddington is a disaster every morning. Four through lanes continue under 64 Ave, but coming off Beddington people panic and force their way into the left three lanes at almost a complete stop because that 4th lane ends a kilometer later at McKnight.

People who pay attention will realize that that fourth lane is actually continuous until almost 16th Avenue NE - I've used that fourth lane almost all the way to 16th many times and have kept moving while traffic remains snarled in the three left lanes.

[speedog]

Yeah the only way that's a true statement is if you're talking about the McKnight exit ramp, and using that lane as through traffic just wrecks life for everybody actually properly using the loop ramps so no, I don't condone that, nor wish for anyone to "pay attention" and use it for that purpose.

The fourth lane ends just prior to McKnight so traffic must merge, then it frees up a bit as it's added again from McKnight and is carried through to 16th.

It is odd that that fourth lane was not made truly continuous in the fashion you speak of through the McKnight section as there's plenty of room to have done so - should've just made it a bit artsy and rerouted the blue ring monies into it.

[AgentGibb]

I've realized this bullshit behaviour is why SB Deerfoot at Beddington is a disaster every morning. Four through lanes continue under 64 Ave, but coming off Beddington people panic and force their way into the left three lanes at almost a complete stop because that 4th lane ends a kilometer later at McKnight.

The people forcing their way into the three leftmost lanes is actually a secondary effect, I think. From what I can tell, the primary cause is usually someone failing to accelerate down the ramp.

When they get to the freeway going 60km/h, all the (impatient) traffic behind them is tightly bunched. This traffic is what tends to force their way in, presumably in an effort to get around the slow traffic in front and not so much because they don't realize that the lane continues. This problem is compounded because any traffic from SB deerfoot wanting to exit at 64th needs to weave into this pack of tightly-bunched slow-moving traffic in a relatively short (~500m) section. In order to do so, they need to decelerate to match speed and hope that someone will open up a gap for them. In so doing, they create openings for the bunched traffic to force their way in to the faster-moving traffic. Chaos ensues.

For whatever reason, Beddington Trail seems to be particularly susceptible to this problem. The light at Beddington Blvd creates a coarse 'metering' effect on this ramp, and it seems like there tends to be at least one slow merging driver in each cycle, which is all it takes to create the problem described above.

So I'll agree that this is primarily a driver behaviour problem, but I'd argue that the highway design (relatively short weave with 64th traffic) aggravates the problem during times of moderate to high volume.

Source: my office window overlooks this section of Deerfoot, so I get plenty of opportunity to observe the phenomenon.

[Deepstar]

I'm so glad I can walk to work and not have to live the nightmare of vehicle commutes.

I view people being stuck in bumper to bumper traffic for a couple of every day as punishment for having been a partner in creating the mess in the first place. All these roads that are getting built are costing us inner city residents a ton of money, and IMO the punishment fits the crime.

[DoubleK]

Here it comes. . .

[milomilo]

Yeah that's a little dramatic. Despite the cries of some Calgary is not even close to being LA or Houston, the road network is actually extremely modest. Most people on here aren't clamouring after massive road expansion, just building the roads in a way that is efficient and makes sense rather than the messed up way it has been built in the past.

[Northern]

Yeah that's a little dramatic. Despite the cries of some Calgary is not even close to being LA or Houston, the road network is actually extremely modest. Most people on here aren't clamouring after massive road expansion, just building the roads in a way that is efficient and makes sense rather than the messed up way it has been built in the past.

Yah no kidding right? All of those people who use the roads and suffer through in traffic are taxpayers who keep this city running. Besides, people who love the LRT always gripe about how crowded it is, they should be thankful not everyone takes transit. Get a friggin clue!

[BlaineN]

I've never viewed it that way before, but it's true haha :haha: Purgatory for the suburbanites!
I view people being stuck in bumper to bumper traffic for a couple of every day as punishment for having been a partner in creating the mess in the first place. All these roads that are getting built are costing us inner city residents a ton of money, and IMO the punishment fits the crime.

[milomilo]

You know this isn't an either or right? Some of us can, and do, in fact support public transit, pedestrian, cycling and road infrastructure! We don't want Calgary to overbuild roads like LA or Houston, but we also don't want a completely underbuilt, counterproductive mess like Vancouver. We're also not talking about putting 12 lane freeways through Calgary, just cleaning up some of the worst examples of poorly designed merges, interchanges etc so that a few extra cars on a ramp don't plug up kilometres of roadway, for example.

[Calgarian]

The best part of traffic jams on Deerfoot south in rush hour is that no one knows the side roads, so I can get to McKenzie Towne from Downtown in 15-20 minutes at 5PM, while all the sheeple take 45 minutes on Deerfoot. :haha:

As an inner city resident, I'm glad as fuck that I don't have to deal with traffic daily, especially on a day like today!

[rotten42]

I'm convinced that Suburbia and Deepstar are actually twins. Except it isn't a good twin and bad twin....both are bad. :)

https://i.imgur.com/zBISfa4.jpg

[suburbia]

I'm convinced that Suburbia and Deepstar are actually twins. Except it isn't a good twin and bad twin....both are bad. :)

https://i.imgur.com/zBISfa4.jpg

Troll

[rotten42]

Troll

https://i.imgur.com/5n8ySMY.jpg

[milomilo]

Could we leave the bickering in the construction thread please? Or leave it out entirely...

[shreddog]

... but one issue with Deerfoot is that it forms part of the CANAMEX Corridor...I would imagine that any N-S/S-N CANAMEX traffic through Calgary during busy periods would use East Stoney. That said, I have no idea how busy that route is at 5PM.

[PPAR]

Increasingly bad.

I'd guess that about half of through traffic still uses Deerfoot, but really the total amount of through traffic is so negligible compared to people doing intra-city trips or only some portion of the 46 km before exiting the city that it might as well be written off. Alberta Transportation has no interest in actually encouraging people to use Stoney for through trips, they just kind of build it and leave it hanging out there... but it doesn't really make a difference.

Drivers in cars may not bother with Stoney, but a tractor trailer driver will do anything to avoid stop and go traffic.

[DoubleK]

That said, I have no idea how busy that route is at 5PM. NB is absolute gridlock from 17th Ave SE past the TCH. I'm unsure of exactly where the 3rd lane starts up.

[Tobyoby]

That's complete bullshit. There's no way you can get from downtown to McKenzie Towne in 15 minutes at 5:00pm. You might want to actually do some math before making those kinds of falsehoods. Dude look at a map, downtown to Mackenzie Town is 17kms as a crow flies. So yeah, unless you're commuting in an airplane, the 15 minutes is pure bullshit. It's more likely 30 minutes at best, and even that's dubious.


The best part of traffic jams on Deerfoot south in rush hour is that no one knows the side roads, so I can get to McKenzie Towne from Downtown in 15-20 minutes at 5PM, while all the sheeple take 45 minutes on Deerfoot. :haha:

As an inner city resident, I'm glad as fuck that I don't have to deal with traffic daily, especially on a day like today!

[lubicon]

NB is absolute gridlock from 17th Ave SE past the TCH. I'm unsure of exactly where the 3rd lane starts up.

If you're talking NB Stoney the third lane does not start until Deerfoot/QEII on the north end. South of 17th it is also 3+ lanes all the way. They desperately need to add that third lane soon.

[Stephen Ave]

I know exactly what you mean. If I had a nickle for every time someone me told me they can get from downtown to Tuscany or the deep south in 20 minutes I'd be a millionaire, and if I had a nickle for every time they were lying, I'd be a billionaire. I used to drive out to Tuscany from downtown, and there was no way I could ever get it under half an hour, but I still get dumb asses telling me they can do it in 20.
That's complete bullshit. There's no way you can get from downtown to McKenzie Towne in 15 minutes at 5:00pm. You might want to actually do some math before making those kinds of falsehoods. Dude look at a map, downtown to Mackenzie Town is 17kms as a crow flies. So yeah, unless you're commuting in an airplane, the 15 minutes is pure bullshit. It's more likely 30 minutes at best, and even that's dubious.

[Corndogger]

Crowchild Trail Information Session: Dec 6, 2017

In an effort to provide neighbouring communities with the opportunity to review the detailed construction plans and ask questions of the project team, we've arranged the following information session:

What? Crowchild Trail Upgrades Project Information Session

When? Wednesday, December 6, 2017
6:30 - 8:30 p.m. (Doors open at 6:30 p.m.)

Where? Hillhurst-Sunnyside Community Association
South Social Hall
1320 5 Avenue N.W.

http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation/TI/Pages/Road-projects/crowchild-trail-upgrades/Crowchild-Trail-Upgrade.aspx?redirect=/crowchild

The email I received included this rendering which I don't recall seeing before. Is it accurate?

https://media.campaigner.com/media/58/580015/transportation/ti/crowchild/Full_small.jpg

[Mazrim]

I doubt they would include it if they didn't think it was accurate!

[Corndogger]

I doubt they would include it if they didn't think it was accurate!

You would think that would be the case but there are plenty of examples of incorrect photos, etc. being used in such pieces. Stuff like using a picture from the U.K. to promote Alberta, artist using pics of U.K. comedians claiming they're everyday Calgarians, etc.

[milomilo]

Looks correct to me - 4 lanes each direction over the bridge, NB ramps joining on the right side, Memorial offramp repositioned.

One part of this project which doesn't make sense to me is they claim to be able to add an extra lane in each direction on Crow underneath Memorial. This doesn't seem possible to me as the underpass is pretty narrow, especially with the skew. I'm sure they have thought of this but it seems impossible to me?

[Mazrim]

You would think that would be the case but there are plenty of examples of incorrect photos, etc. being used in such pieces. Stuff like using a picture from the U.K. to promote Alberta, artist using pics of U.K. comedians claiming they're everyday Calgarians, etc.

Given the recent news, I can understand your concerns! Let me be a little more clear about my earlier post. There will be multiple renderings and a video showing the project, and I can tell you that a fair amount of effort has been put into them to make sure they're accurate.

[Mazrim]

One part of this project which doesn't make sense to me is they claim to be able to add an extra lane in each direction on Crow underneath Memorial. This doesn't seem possible to me as the underpass is pretty narrow, especially with the skew. I'm sure they have thought of this but it seems impossible to me?

It's accomplished through two changes - the angle of the road under the bridge is changed, and the bridge itself is slightly modified to make the clearances work.

[Corndogger]

It's accomplished through two changes - the angle of the road under the bridge is changed, and the bridge itself is slightly modified to make the clearances work.

Is that what Graham Construction is working on now?

[Mazrim]

Is that what Graham Construction is working on now?

Possibly? Last I saw they were working further South of that particular spot but it's been a couple weeks for me since I drove through the area.

[craner]

Nice to see a realistic rendering - thanks for posting.

[ImmortalHawk]

I was wondering if they are ever going to upgrade the Sarcee@JL Blvd intersection. The JL blvd intersection is really dangerous, and a few days ago, there was a car crash...

I want an interchange though... :)

And also the JL blvd @ McKnight... I wish they could just upgrade it.

[milomilo]

I was wondering if they are ever going to upgrade the Sarcee@JL Blvd intersection. The JL blvd intersection is really dangerous, and a few days ago, there was a car crash...

I want an interchange though... :)

And also the JL blvd @ McKnight... I wish they could just upgrade it.

JL/McKnight definitely needs fixing ASAP, it's embarrassing. I believe the city does plan to do this in the long term and are buying up property. I worry though that they'll half ass it and not make a large enough radius curve and destroy all hope of making that a properly high capacity route in the future.

[Mazrim]

JL/McKnight definitely needs fixing ASAP, it's embarrassing. I believe the city does plan to do this in the long term and are buying up property. I worry though that they'll half ass it and not make a large enough radius curve and destroy all hope of making that a properly high capacity route in the future.

Out of curiosity I placed the minimum radius that would allow the road to operate at 50 km/h posted speed through the corner.

https://i.imgur.com/s84F4Hc.jpg

Looks like you'd need about 5 houses to pull it off.

[milomilo]

Out of curiosity I placed the minimum radius that would allow the road to operate at 50 km/h posted speed through the corner.

https://i.imgur.com/s84F4Hc.jpg

Looks like you'd need about 5 houses to pull it off.

I was thinking of an 80km/h speed limit (still lower than we should expect, but the same as Crowchild).

[YYCguys]

Sorry guys. Not an engineer here. What is a radius curve?

I’m wondering how much traffic enters/exits 48th Ave at JLB/McKB. Would a traffic circle suffice to get traffic moving better there? I don’t think it would need any more space than what’s there already.

But would definitely like to see McKB widened and the speed increased between 4th E and 4th W!

[kap384]

Too bad there is still a 2 thru lane choke point on southbound after crossing the river.

[milomilo]

Too bad there is still a 2 thru lane choke point on southbound after crossing the river.

Agreed, but that part is not even close to as much of a bottleneck as the NB one is. For the money spent, I think we are getting great value from this.

[Mazrim]

I was thinking of an 80km/h speed limit (still lower than we should expect, but the same as Crowchild).
That's very unlikely, since they're not going to change John Laurie or McKnight significantly, both of which aren't set up to do 80 km/h. The 50 km/h curve still allows traffic to flow freely through the area with only a minor blip on the speed in the grand scheme of things.

Sorry guys. Not an engineer here. What is a radius curve?

I’m wondering how much traffic enters/exits 48th Ave at JLB/McKB. Would a traffic circle suffice to get traffic moving better there? I don’t think it would need any more space than what’s there already.

But would definitely like to see McKB widened and the speed increased between 4th E and 4th W!
In the simplest terms, a circular curve is what you see when a road turns. If you were to draw a circle and have two straight lines intersect it, that's generally how roads are designed. The radius of the curve (ie. how small or large a curve is) controls the speed posted on that curve.

In a more complicated description, there are usually spiral curves on either end of the curve that allow a vehicle to gently transition into the curve. These are constantly changing in radius and better for driving on higher speed roadways.

The end result is the following for most roadway curves: Tangent line, spiral curve, circular curve, spiral curve, tangent line.

A roundabout wouldn't really change anything at this particular intersection, since the overwhelming majority of the traffic does only two movements here. Making it so traffic doesn't have to do a hard corner here as well as increasing speeds will help with traffic flow and safety.

[craner]

John Laurie - Mcknight:

I remember seeing plans for upgrading this intersection to a free-flowing curve on the City website but that was probably about 10 years ago.

A quick google search reveals the plan is for a 70km/hr curve:
http://northhavenyyc.ca/community-events/2017/4/18/john-laurie-mcknight-intersection-dialog-session

"The report recommended a major re-alignment to eliminate the “T” intersection and make it a smooth 70 kmh curve. An underpass would permit free flow on eastbound 48 Avenue to merge with eastbound McKnight traffic near Northmount Drive."

I sure wish either 16th Ave. or John Laurie-Mcknight could become a free flow, high speed route. A Glenmore Tr. equivalent accross the north end of the City if you will.

[Mazrim]

That 70 km/h design in the presentation is nice, but definitely a lot more expensive. I have to agree with the City's assumption that it gets done with the rest of McKnight over to Deerfoot, as it will have the most impact that way.

[milomilo]

That's very unlikely, since they're not going to change John Laurie or McKnight significantly, both of which aren't set up to do 80 km/h. The 50 km/h curve still allows traffic to flow freely through the area with only a minor blip on the speed in the grand scheme of things.

This is very shortsighted. But that is not a surprise - decades ago it should have been quite obvious that the TCH/16th would have been the obvious east-west corridor in Calgary, but no effort was made to allow for this. So we are left with John Laurie/McKnight as the only viable high capacity route in the north, and you're saying the city wants to box that in too? This kind of attitude has left us with the Crowchild situation.

I'm not sure how JL isn't set up for 80km/h either? It's already 70km/h and straight.

[CrossedTheTracks]

This is very shortsighted. But that is not a surprise - decades ago it should have been quite obvious that the TCH/16th would have been the obvious east-west corridor in Calgary, but no effort was made to allow for this. So we are left with John Laurie/McKnight as the only viable high capacity route in the north, and you're saying the city wants to box that in too? This kind of attitude has left us with the Crowchild situation.

I'm not sure how JL isn't set up for 80km/h either? It's already 70km/h and straight.

I can't imagine JL speeds going any higher unless the unsignaled left turns between Shag & 14th are either closed or some kind of ramp/bridge built for them. They're already really dodgy to use, a higher speed on JL would be nuts. Not sure the curve under 14th Street could carry a higher speed limit either.

[milomilo]

I can't imagine JL speeds going any higher unless the unsignaled left turns between Shag & 14th are either closed or some kind of ramp/bridge built for them. They're already really dodgy to use, a higher speed on JL would be nuts. Not sure the curve under 14th Street could carry a higher speed limit either.

Totally agree, I just don't think the door should be closed for this to happen in the future.

[YYCguys]

I can't imagine JL speeds going any higher unless the unsignaled left turns between Shag & 14th are either closed or some kind of ramp/bridge built for them. They're already really dodgy to use, a higher speed on JL would be nuts. Not sure the curve under 14th Street could carry a higher speed limit either.

Indeed! Getting onto JLB is time consuming for sure. I’m not a big advocate of closing access to the main northern east-west “highway” in all three cases but perhaps using traffic circles at each one would improve access (but we would lose the advantage of higher travel speed). Has there been a study introduced for improvements on JLB between 14th and NHD?

[Mazrim]

This is very shortsighted. But that is not a surprise - decades ago it should have been quite obvious that the TCH/16th would have been the obvious east-west corridor in Calgary, but no effort was made to allow for this. So we are left with John Laurie/McKnight as the only viable high capacity route in the north, and you're saying the city wants to box that in too? This kind of attitude has left us with the Crowchild situation.

I'm not sure how JL isn't set up for 80km/h either? It's already 70km/h and straight.

The Crowchild situation is caused by not having a consistent amount of lanes through the pain points (Bow Trail, Memorial Drive, University Drive, for instance). The JLB situation is caused by a very hard turn that is way too slow for efficient traffic flow. Doing a 50 km/h posted curve would reduce the property impacts significantly and still accomplish the main goal - getting all the through lanes moving better through that corner than they do today, and removing some of the current conflicts that makes it feel dangerous to people.

[suburbia]

This is actually about a parking lot, but this roads thread is the closest I could find. Hilarious!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/sage-hill-rock-hit-parking-lot-1.4431931
Drivers keep hitting large rock in suburban Calgary parking lot

[DizzyEdge]

Seems like they should keep it there. People getting hung up on the rock isn't a sign the rock is a problem, it's a sign people are being negligent and driving over curbs.

[Tarsus]

Seems like they should keep it there. People getting hung up on the rock isn't a sign the rock is a problem, it's a sign people are being negligent and driving over curbs.

Speaks to all the idiot drivers in the is city.

[Tarsus]

https://i.redditmedia.com/xRL0jACn8SyPeg-27FJ8-ocobCv0VOC2P_wM0gGZxqE.jpg?w=1024&

[ImmortalHawk]

Props to the city for building that DDI at Macleod/162 in such a way that even the most moronic drivers we have in this city can't screw up too bad. It remains highly counterintuitive, but I haven't seen anybody doing anything wild.

Definitely. Now to figure out how the design department is gonna fix Deerfoot... I say they should fix up the stretch between Glenmore to Anderson/Bow bottom. And maybe fix the Anderson/Bow bottom perplexinator. It's simply too confusing.

[milomilo]

Definitely. Now to figure out how the design department is gonna fix Deerfoot... I say they should fix up the stretch between Glenmore to Anderson/Bow bottom. And maybe fix the Anderson/Bow bottom perplexinator. It's simply too confusing.

I bet they thought they were being very smart when they built these roads too - "I know, if we make every movement have it's own lane using some from the mainline and adding a few extra, that will make it easy for drivers!".

[milomilo]

Props to the city for building that DDI at Macleod/162 in such a way that even the most moronic drivers we have in this city can't screw up too bad. It remains highly counterintuitive, but I haven't seen anybody doing anything wild.

Hopefully the city maintains the lane markings on the intersection. They don't on any others so that's wishful thinking, but it's particularly important on this one. I agree though it's great as is.

[speedog]

Hopefully the city maintains the lane markings on the intersection. They don't on any others so that's wishful thinking, but it's particularly important on this one. I agree though it's great as is.

Even without lane markings, you'd have to be quite a moron to mess things up there because it is a very well designed interchange.

[lubicon]

Definitely. Now to figure out how the design department is gonna fix Deerfoot... I say they should fix up the stretch between Glenmore to Anderson/Bow bottom. And maybe fix the Anderson/Bow bottom perplexinator. It's simply too confusing.

Would love to see Deerfoot undergo a major upgrade but since the City is not responsible for it and the Province doesn't want anything to do with it / cannot afford to do anything about it I am not holding my breath. Glenmore/deerfoot interchange needs a total rebuild and Deerfoot needs to be 3 lanes in it's entirety (and arguably 4).

[milomilo]

Priorities would be for me, in decreasing importance be Glenmore/Deerfoot, Anderson/BBT then the section between 16th-Barlow. Which essentially means rebuild the entire section from 16th to Anderson. Not cheap.

With the ring roads complete by the mid 2020s, maybe that's about the time we can expect other major road projects to begin.

[technomad]

Priorities would be for me, in decreasing importance be Glenmore/Deerfoot, Anderson/BBT then the section between 16th-Barlow. Which essentially means rebuild the entire section from 16th to Anderson. Not cheap.

With the ring roads complete by the mid 2020s, maybe that's about the time we can expect other major road projects to begin.

I'd agree with those priorities. it would be good if a few of the Deerfoot to E Stoney links were freeway grade before the overhaul though.. in addition to being hugely expensive, it'll be incredibly disruptive, it'd be a huge help if E Stoney could act as a bypass route during reconstruction

Glenmore is already pretty close, 16 Av N and Airport trail would be great to have as free-flow interconnects before the party starts

[milomilo]

I'd agree with those priorities. it would be good if a few of the Deerfoot to E Stoney links were freeway grade before the overhaul though.. in addition to being hugely expensive, it'll be incredibly disruptive, it'd be a huge help if E Stoney could act as a bypass route during reconstruction

Glenmore is already pretty close, 16 Av N and Airport trail would be great to have as free-flow interconnects before the party starts

Because of extreme short sightedness, Glenmore/Deerfoot will need to be completely rebuilt to be worth doing, as there is only room for 4 through lanes on Glenmore. Unless maybe they could move the support beams, no idea if that's feasible though.

[technomad]

Because of extreme short sightedness, Glenmore/Deerfoot will need to be completely rebuilt to be worth doing, as there is only room for 4 through lanes on Glenmore. Unless maybe they could move the support beams, no idea if that's feasible though.

oh yeah, I'm not suggesting any part of that interchange should be salvaged. but if Glenmore from that point east ward was free-flow, along with 16 Av N, then that whole section of Deerfoot could be overhauled, while E Stoney gets used to offload the traffic

repeat between Airport Trail and 16 Av N, and Glenmore and S Stoney

[milomilo]

I see. I'm not sure how much relief that would allow as most of that traffic will be headed downtown, but Glenmore could still do with upgrading, the rest is pretty easy.

[YYCguys]

I would love to see the McKnight interchange fixed as well. Vehicles accessing SB Deerfoot from WB McKnight and vehicles accessing EB McKnight from SB Deerfoot often meet on that dangerous half cloverleaf!

[milomilo]

I would love to see the McKnight interchange fixed as well. Vehicles accessing SB Deerfoot from WB McKnight and vehicles accessing EB McKnight from SB Deerfoot often meet on that dangerous half cloverleaf!

Yeah that one is a POS too. How/when did McKnight/36th/Metis get that expensive looking third level ramp which would be far more appropriate (x2) on Deerfoot?

[Corndogger]

Yeah that one is a POS too. How/when did McKnight/36th/Metis get that expensive looking third level ramp which would be far more appropriate (x2) on Deerfoot?

That was built when the LRT was extended. Speaking of Metis Trail I wish the city would reverse the decision to downgrade that road. I'm so glad Gord Lowe is no longer on council but boy did he fuck things up in his last term.

[YYCguys]

Speaking of Metis Trail I wish the city would reverse the decision to downgrade that road.

Indeed! It’s a mess between 64th ave and Country Hills Blvd! Are they ever going to finish widening it?

[milomilo]

2007. At the time they (rightly) anticipated Metis playing a much larger role than that to which they've now downgraded it. Sure you can build those over Deerfoot, but where? 16 Ave? $120 million on flyovers for Deerfoot doesn't necessarily help you unless you fix the weakest part of the system, hence the study which is underway and give some insight as to what they're thinking by the end of next year.

Completely agree - just that fancy flyover on Metis looks completely out of place when there are multiple cloverleafs in more deserving locations.

[Rollerstud98]

Indeed! It’s a mess between 64th ave and Country Hills Blvd! Are they ever going to finish widening it?

I think that it was happening this fall. Haven't been through there for a while but that bottle neck is ridiculous.

[YYCguys]

Well I’ve been forced to use that route between Airdrie and the Westjet campus all summer, fall and winter this year and there’s been no construction action on it, just connecting roads to the emerging industrial areas adjacent to it.

[suburbia]

Completely agree - just that fancy flyover on Metis looks completely out of place when there are multiple cloverleafs in more deserving locations.

So you would have preferred they'd have bought out houses in whitehorn? Unless we're going to open up that decade-old intersection fully, I'd recommend leaving it alone. A full-on clover leaf was not the best solution for that intersection at the time, all costs considered.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.0954965,-113.9822027,17z

[milomilo]

So you would have preferred they'd have bought out houses in whitehorn? Unless we're going to open up that decade-old intersection fully, I'd recommend leaving it alone. A full-on clover leaf was not the best solution for that intersection at the time, all costs considered.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.0954965,-113.9822027,17z

They could have put lights on either of the roads which would have been a lot cheaper. I'm not opposed to grade separation, but there are many more deserving locations, IMO.

[suburbia]

The cheaper alternative was obviously a parclo with a signalized intersection on Metis, not buying out houses in Whitehorn. lol.

Milomilo was specifically comparing to a full cloverleaf. lol.

[milomilo]

Milomilo was specifically comparing to a full cloverleaf. lol.

Sorry I wasn't clear, that wasn't what I was trying to say. Just that money was spent on a large flyover on Metis, when there exist multiple other cloverleaf interchanges which need a similar upgrade more.

[milomilo]

Yeah I get that, you can't really compare the circumstances of the interchanges as they all will have different stories, it just to me looks out of place when you have the most impressive flyover in the city between two secondary roads out in the suburbs. Nothing more than that.

There seems to be a much different mindset between how the province builds roads and the city, which would at least partially be to the circumstances they build roads in. The province builds the roads with massive, sometimes unrealistic long term future proofing, whereas the city seems reluctant to add any additional capacity to roads. Both strategies have merit, but it's this reason that I hope Deerfoot stays under control of the province.

[Corndogger]

Crowchild Trail Upgrades: Construction Phases

Info from last month's open house. I think this is updated info but not sure.

http://www.calgary.ca/_layouts/cocis/DirectDownload.aspx?target=http%3a%2f%2fwww.calgary.ca%2fTransportation%2fTI%2fDocuments%2fCrowchild%2520Upgrades%2fCrowchild-Upgrades-Staging.pdf&noredirect=1&sf=1

[Mazrim]

That looks like the new info. There's also a new video on the City's youtube page.

[Corndogger]

That looks like the new info. There's also a new video on the City's youtube page.

Is this the video you're talking about? This makes some aspects of the upgrades a lot clearer. At least clearer for me.

Wd5ObU2hJE8

[tmjr]

What advantage does moving the Northbound Crowchild-Eastbound Memorial ramp provide?