Calgary Roads

[mersar]

Noticed a sign of things happening on the 10th@14th now that 14th is reopened between 9th and 11th. There's now a traffic light ahead overhead sign (with the flashing lights on it) just north of the CPR bridge going southbound. And what looks to be a 'no left turn' sign on the 11th avenue intersection going northbound that has been covered over. No actual roadwork though at the 10th@14th intersection, the huge they dug for the waterworks upgrade looked to be a fairly narrow trench across the intersection, the centre median though was repaired with only asphalt instead of concrete so it does indeed seem to be a temporary repair since they need to redo the intersection fully at a point in the future.

[Spocket]

Winnipeg's got a road that's 6 or 7 names, without turning, plus another road that's in 5 or 6 separate sections, all named the same. Someone from the Wpg contingent inevitably follows up with the correct details so I'll leave it at that. :P

Yeah , there's a few of them .

The worst one is Osborne (which is the name it takes at it's busiest section)
Dakota , Dunkirk , Osborne (South and North) Colony , Balmoral , Isabel , Slaw Rebchuk (A bridge name in fairness) and finally Salter .

One of the busiest arteries has a number of names as well but fortunately it often goes simply by Route 90 . Winnipeg actually has a "Route" system but with the exception of the one mentioned , nobody knows any of them .

And yes , for the most part these name changes were the result of different jurisdictions prior to amalgamation forty years ago . Some of them are simply the result of re-routes and ad-hoc connections though .

You guys in Calgary are lucky . :yes:

[kw5150]

The amount of salt compounds used to melt snow in our city should be reduced. Did you know that the dust is harmful to breathe ? I have seen people sprinkle copious amounts of salt on 20 cms of fresh powder instead of shovelling. How lazy can people get?

The other day, I witnessed a salt truck dump literally buckets of the stuff on an intersection in the beltline. I have used salt before........long time ago and I know that you dont need THAT much to do the job. Wake up Calgary, we have a crystal blue, fairly-healthy, river running through the city........lets keep it that way. Salt also kills street trees (and highway trees) We paid for all of these trees, lets at least keep them healthy.

I cant even imagine what the increased use is doing to our overpasses and other infrasructure.

I also think my car is going to rust out completely in the next ten years. Wahat a joke.

Reduce the salt use! *note* I did not say eliminate salt..........just reduce.

[artvandelay]

I'm not too concerned, I'd actually rather have the city use more salt and less gravel/sand that scratches up my car and cracks my windshield every winter.

[freeweed]

kw... I can't really respond other than to say you really need to see places other than Calgary before spouting off about salt. Cars rusting here is so not a concern compared to say southern Ontario, or the coast. I mean seriously. We might have 1% of the salt exposure they do, tops. Calgary uses hardly any salt compared to ... well, just about everywhere else. Trees survive just fine in cities that use far more salt than we do.

Our rivers (and lungs, for that matter) are exposed to much more harmful chemicals and in much greater concentrations on a regular basis. And the water quality is continually monitored. I've never once heard of a high salt concentration - but the authorities do seem to know if a few gallons of gasoline leak in, that's how sensitive the monitoring is.

[Oliver Klozov]

The City of Calgary still uses powdered salt on their roads? :shrug:

The Provincial Highway Maintenance contractors like Volker-Stevin in southern Alberta use liquid salt. It is stored in plastic boxes along side the box containing the sand and is sprayed into the sand as it's distributed. If it's too cold for salt to have any effect, they can just use straight sand. There is also no need to premix vast stockpiles of sand/salt mix in the summer. :yes:

[kw5150]

kw... I can't really respond other than to say you really need to see places other than Calgary before spouting off about salt. Cars rusting here is so not a concern compared to say southern Ontario, or the coast. I mean seriously. We might have 1% of the salt exposure they do, tops. Calgary uses hardly any salt compared to ... well, just about everywhere else. Trees survive just fine in cities that use far more salt than we do.

Our rivers (and lungs, for that matter) are exposed to much more harmful chemicals and in much greater concentrations on a regular basis. And the water quality is continually monitored. I've never once heard of a high salt concentration - but the authorities do seem to know if a few gallons of gasoline leak in, that's how sensitive the monitoring is.

I knew I would get a responses like these. I dont care if some cities use way more we still are using too much. We should reduce it. I also dont care if we breathe more harmful stuff.....we should still reduce this along with reducing all of the other harmful pollutants. And yes, the trees do suffer actually. Its called witch's broom. Its when all the branches have 20 stems coming out of them. This is due to the salt killing the spring buds. This is especially apparent in winnipeg where they use even more salt.

We only have one environment and in the last 2 -3 years calgary has been using more salt. I just think it is a tad nasty.

And are you saying that the high quantities of salt flowing directly into the elbow and bow from the storm sewers has no effect? Im not sure if I beleive that.

More work needs to be dont to preserve our beautiful rivers.

[Mazrim]

Oh man, if we get rid of salt (or the evil chemical compound used instead of just salt), I can't wait to go back to spending hundreds of dollars on my windshield annually!

I don't even have one rockchip this winter. It's a freaking miracle.

[kw5150]

Oh man, if we get rid of salt (or the evil chemical compound used instead of just salt), I can't wait to go back to spending hundreds of dollars on my windshield annually!

I don't even have one rockchip this winter. It's a freaking miracle.

Once again...........reduce, not get rid of.

[Mazrim]

I am of the opinion that they have not overdone salting on the roads from what I have seen. Perhaps you had a bad example when you saw that truck go overkill. Maybe it was accident on their part by opening up too much on the chute? Who knows.

I do know that whoever maintains the office building I work at goes way overkill on their salt though. The carpets inside look gross.

[kw5150]

I am of the opinion that they have not overdone salting on the roads from what I have seen. Perhaps you had a bad example when you saw that truck go overkill. Maybe it was accident on their part by opening up too much on the chute? Who knows.

I do know that whoever maintains the office building I work at goes way overkill on their salt though. The carpets inside look gross.

That is also what I am talking about. There just seems to be a huge resurgence on salt use. I cant wear any of my leather shoes anymore in the winter!

[freeweed]

That is also what I am talking about. There just seems to be a huge resurgence on salt use. I cant wear any of my leather shoes anymore in the winter!

Welcome to a liability-panicked world. I don't find the streets to have excessive salt, but I'll definitely agree that there's a ton more salt being used on sidewalks in recent years.

Obviously a few people didn't wear decent winter footwear, slipped, sued, and won.

[freeweed]

I knew I would get a responses like these. I dont care if some cities use way more we still are using too much. We should reduce it. I also dont care if we breathe more harmful stuff.....we should still reduce this along with reducing all of the other harmful pollutants. And yes, the trees do suffer actually. Its called witch's broom. Its when all the branches have 20 stems coming out of them. This is due to the salt killing the spring buds. This is especially apparent in winnipeg where they use even more salt.

We only have one environment and in the last 2 -3 years calgary has been using more salt. I just think it is a tad nasty.

And are you saying that the high quantities of salt flowing directly into the elbow and bow from the storm sewers has no effect? Im not sure if I beleive that.

More work needs to be dont to preserve our beautiful rivers.

What I'm saying is that we have a lot bigger issues to deal with, so focussing on salt is less productive in terms of net benefit.

Our rivers are damned clean, and unless you can show me how other cities are "salt polluted", I think the amount of salt entering them is pretty negligible. You can't just say "salt is bad because it ends up in the rivers". Is there any actual evidence that our rivers are being negatively affected by salt? Besides, if you say we're using "too much" - how much, exactly, is "too much"? And are other cities then using "WAAAY too much"? How much would be acceptable for you? And on the basis of what evidence? Where is the tipping point between "enough" and "too much"?

Also, Calgary's winters in the past 3 years have been much worse in terms of snowfall and accumulation. It shouldn't surprise anyone that we're using more salt. Unless you prefer even more vehicular and pedestrian accidents.

[freeweed]

dp. I wish SSP would stop dying exactly when I post.

[kw5150]

What I'm saying is that we have a lot bigger issues to deal with, so focussing on salt is less productive in terms of net benefit.

Our rivers are damned clean, and unless you can show me how other cities are "salt polluted", I think the amount of salt entering them is pretty negligible. You can't just say "salt is bad because it ends up in the rivers". Is there any actual evidence that our rivers are being negatively affected by salt? Besides, if you say we're using "too much" - how much, exactly, is "too much"? And are other cities then using "WAAAY too much"? How much would be acceptable for you? And on the basis of what evidence? Where is the tipping point between "enough" and "too much"?

Also, Calgary's winters in the past 3 years have been much worse in terms of snowfall and accumulation. It shouldn't surprise anyone that we're using more salt. Unless you prefer even more vehicular and pedestrian accidents.

Its called chloride toxicity. Calgary is getting larger and so will the problem. Maybe Calgary should attempt to filter more of the storm water..... If we pollute our rivers any more than we have, it will be unfortunate. Talking about my concerns is ok! I really dont think we will be leaving earth any time soon so we better take care of it. I am glad that we have so many smart people in Calgary attempting to limit the amount of pollutants in our rivers.

[freeweed]

Maybe Calgary should attempt to filter more of the storm water.....

This I'm all for, although I have no idea how feasible/expensive it would be. There's definitely enough crap washing off our roads and lawns that I'd be highly in favour of filtering it.

[kw5150]

This I'm all for, although I have no idea how feasible/expensive it would be. There's definitely enough crap washing off our roads and lawns that I'd be highly in favour of filtering it.

I thought that it could make for an interesting urban sculpture......a 3 floor high urban water filter.....somewhere prominent where dirty water would flow in and crystal clear water would flow out into the river. The filters could be changed by students or something.....

[MichaelS]

I thought that it could make for an interesting urban sculpture......a 3 floor high urban water filter.....somewhere prominent where dirty water would flow in and crystal clear water would flow out into the river. The filters could be changed by students or something.....

Water flows downhill. It would be expensive to pump it up to the top of a 3 storey sculpture. Plus, there are hundreds of outfalls throughout the city, the storm water does not enter the river in only 1 spot.

[craner]

That water filter sculpture is a great idea - could put it in the east village.

It seems to me the city is using more salt in say the last 5 years or so than they used to. It leaves behind that ugly white effervescence.
The spring is such an ugly time of year here once the snow starts melting and leaving all the gravel from the winter and revaling all the garbage and dead grass :yuck: . Thankfully things start to green up fairly quickly and once the streets are cleaned it's great - we just have to get through that ugly period.

[kw5150]

Water flows downhill. It would be expensive to pump it up to the top of a 3 storey sculpture. Plus, there are hundreds of outfalls throughout the city, the storm water does not enter the river in only 1 spot.

well then it will be 2 storeys. It would be inspiration to put other filters in other outflows located around the city. I think there are 6-8 stormwater outflows on the elbow.....and god knows how many that flow into the bow.

Solar and wind will be used to power the pumps. People will then get an idea of how much nasty stuff spills into the river. We would then harvest and sseparate the material collected by using a large _________
We would be setting an example for good ecological practices and it would be seen around the world

.....and then a bunch of ________ would crush the whole idea.....

[kw5150]

That water filter sculpture is a great idea - could put it in the east village.

It seems to me the city is using more salt in say the last 5 years or so than they used to. It leaves behind that ugly white effervescence.
The spring is such an ugly time of year here once the snow starts melting and leaving all the gravel from the winter and revaling all the garbage and dead grass :yuck: . Thankfully things start to green up fairly quickly and once the streets are cleaned it's great - we just have to get through that ugly period.

yup, we just wash it all away into the rivers and life is back to normal! lol

thanks I would just like to know if the filter idea is feasible. Its not like I have built one already.....lol

[mersar]

Interesting thing to note on the topic of salt and the stormwater system, is that the city actually has an ongoing Stormwater Quality Retrofit Program (http://www.calgary.ca/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_0_784_203_0_43/http%3B/content.calgary.ca/CCA/City+Hall/Business+Units/Water+Services/Construction+Projects/Stormwater+Quality+Retrofit+Program/Stormwater+Quality+Retrofit+Program.htm) which is mostly about building wetponds and the like to add some filtration to the stormwater facilities.

[kw5150]

Interesting thing to note on the topic of salt and the stormwater system, is that the city actually has an ongoing Stormwater Quality Retrofit Program (http://www.calgary.ca/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_0_784_203_0_43/http%3B/content.calgary.ca/CCA/City+Hall/Business+Units/Water+Services/Construction+Projects/Stormwater+Quality+Retrofit+Program/Stormwater+Quality+Retrofit+Program.htm) which is mostly about building wetponds and the like to add some filtration to the stormwater facilities.

Thanks for finding that. I will have a read. This is my friends idea but.....could they recycle the water to make salt again? Or would that just be ludacris?

[DizzyEdge]

Thanks for finding that. I will have a read. This is my friends idea but.....could they recycle the water to make salt again? Or would that just be ludacris?

Well, that's what a desalination plant does, but I hear that making fresh water from saltwater is prohibitively expensive.

[kw5150]

Well, that's what a desalination plant does, but I hear that making fresh water from saltwater is prohibitively expensive.

Well I am just glad that the city is at least looking into it. One way to help would be to ask people (as proud Calgarians) to limit their salt use.

We dont want too much salt water going out to our farmlands. I heard there are studies about salt lakes showing up in the praires (over long, long periods of time) where they never existed before.

I think there were studies in the US but now that I think about it, it was more due to the fertilizers etc.....but still..... :)

[kw5150]

I am of the opinion that they have not overdone salting on the roads from what I have seen. Perhaps you had a bad example when you saw that truck go overkill. Maybe it was accident on their part by opening up too much on the chute? Who knows.

I do know that whoever maintains the office building I work at goes way overkill on their salt though. The carpets inside look gross.

It was not just one example that I have seen.

[MichaelS]

well then it will be 2 storeys. It would be inspiration to put other filters in other outflows located around the city. I think there are 6-8 stormwater outflows on the elbow.....and god knows how many that flow into the bow.

Solar and wind will be used to power the pumps. People will then get an idea of how much nasty stuff spills into the river. We would then harvest and sseparate the material collected by using a large _________
We would be setting an example for good ecological practices and it would be seen around the world

.....and then a bunch of ________ would crush the whole idea.....

There are over 50 on the Elbow River. When you see those signs along the riverbank that say E36 for example, that means it is the 36th outfall along the Elbow River. B109 is for the Bow River. N4 for Nose Creek, G18 - Glenmore Reservoir, CP9 - Confederation Park, etc... The numbering for Elbow starts at the Bow River, and counts up as you move upstream. Nose Creek again starts at the Bow. The Bow itself starts way down in the south, but I know there are now more further south than B1, so they have gotten out of order a bit.

The city does have some filters and skimming devices on their storm system prior to it entering the rivers, for example devices like Stormceptors:
http://www.stormceptor.com/

They are pretty effective, but also costly to maintain. And again I will reiterate that a multi-level fountain/filter is completely impractical (doesn't matter if it is 2 storeys or 3 storeys). Our entire storm system is gravity fed. Any filter will need to be underground, within the pipe system.

[kw5150]

There are over 50 on the Elbow River. When you see those signs along the riverbank that say E36 for example, that means it is the 36th outfall along the Elbow River. B109 is for the Bow River. N4 for Nose Creek, G18 - Glenmore Reservoir, CP9 - Confederation Park, etc... The numbering for Elbow starts at the Bow River, and counts up as you move upstream. Nose Creek again starts at the Bow. The Bow itself starts way down in the south, but I know there are now more further south than B1, so they have gotten out of order a bit.

The city does have some filters and skimming devices on their storm system prior to it entering the rivers, for example devices like Stormceptors:
http://www.stormceptor.com/

They are pretty effective, but also costly to maintain. And again I will reiterate that a multi-level fountain/filter is completely impractical (doesn't matter if it is 2 storeys or 3 storeys). Our entire storm system is gravity fed. Any filter will need to be underground, within the pipe system.

Ok, you've killed my dream. Storm sewers outfalls have always disgusted me. I wish there was a better soulution than the lame ass stormceptor. In the end it looks like we should be trying to limit what goes into the storm drains right off the bat....

[kw5150]

Can the city of Calgary declare a salt free zone in the inner city? I swear the cars coming from the suburbs drag in plenty enough salt and grit to deal with the ice.

We want to be proud of our great inner city and salt actually does quite a number on our infrastructure.

-the rivers in our city may eventually experience chloride toxicity

-the salt is limiting the life span infrastructure like bridges, sidewalks, guardrails, signage, light posts etc....

-it also wreaks havoc on entrances, floors, carpets, pants and shoes

-and causes witches broom on trees and shrubs which eventually results in the tree becoming weak and susceptible to disease, insects....

Obviously we would need salt after the first big ice event but after that we would only need it in certain places or not at all.

[Oliver Klozov]

-the rivers in our city may eventually experience chloride toxicity



I will bet there's far more natural salt in the river already than we can possibly add by road runoff.

The natural function of rivers, most particularly those in arid and semi-arid regions, is to carry dissolved solids (mostly salts) to the ocean. Southern Alberta is definitely a semi-arid region. There are a lot of salts in the surface ground. The natural runoff from the land from the foothills on down carries salt into the river.

[kw5150]

I will bet there's far more natural salt in the river already than we can possibly add by road runoff.

The natural function of rivers, most particularly those in arid and semi-arid regions, is to carry dissolved solids (mostly salts) to the ocean. Southern Alberta is definitely a semi-arid region. There are a lot of salts in the surface ground. The natural runoff from the land from the foothills on down carries salt into the river.

I seriously doubt that. And aren't we just adding more? I get your point but come on.....So the job of rivers is to carry pollutants to the ocean? Fail.

[You Need A Thneed]

Calgary has some of the best care of stormwater for any city in the world. Storm ponds allow salt and other things to settle out of the water before it enters the river.

[kw5150]

Calgary has some of the best care of stormwater for any city in the world. Storm ponds allow salt and other things to settle out of the water before it enters the river.

good to know. Unfortunately some areas go direct into the river with no storm pond.....I guess these areas have stormceptors? Or no...?

[MalcolmTucker]

Lots of work is being done on storm water treatment. check out this article from a while back. http://www.calgarybeacon.com/2009/02/storm-water-quality-retrofit-program-cleans-fish-creek-bow-river/

[You Need A Thneed]

good to know. Unfortunately some areas go direct into the river with no storm pond.....I guess these areas have stormceptors? Or no...?

They city is working on correcting that. That's why there a new storm pond by Fort Calgary, for example, that some of the inner city storm water goes into.

It's also why there will always be ponds and wetlands in any new suburban development.

[tmjr]

With these stormwater ponds, presumably toxin concentrations slowly build as crud settles out in the ponds. Do they eventually deal with this - e.g. dig up the toxin laden ground and incinerate it perhaps?

Also, if toxin concentrations build in these ponds, are these wetlands safe for water fowl and other creatures? I guess it would really depend on how fast the concentration builds (if at all...)

[Radley77]

I am much more concerned about the corrosion effects of salt than environmental costs. It accelerates rusting of vehichles as well as causes bridges to rust and concrete to spall. That being said, I do think the majority of people are more concerned about travel times, accidents and safety than rusting and corrosion of vehichles and bridge infrastructure. I am curious what technologies are being used by the city that could be used to make road salt more effective like prewetting or selective road salt applications at intersections. Could one day the data gathered from traffic accidents during the winter, plus the GPS equipped snowplows be used to more effectively meter salt based on location?

[freeweed]

I am much more concerned about the corrosion effects of salt than environmental costs. It accelerates rusting of vehichles as well as causes bridges to rust and concrete to spall.

I've said it before, and I'll just continue to say it - some of you post as if our bridges and roads are crumbling due to salt exposure. If that was remotely the case, cities like Toronto - or hell, Vancouver with its 12 months a year salt exposure - would be replacing bridges every year. And everyone would have to drive a plastic car.

Our generally cold climate and freeze/thaw cycles does far, far more damage than the salt we use. Of course, salt can add to the problem but it's a fair trade if it means surviving a drive/walk during wintertime.

For a city that "uses way too much salt", there have been something like 40 people a week being taken to hospital for slipping and falling on icy roads and sidewalks this winter. Imagine that number if we had even more ice out there.

[Radley77]

I've said it before, and I'll just continue to say it - some of you post as if our bridges and roads are crumbling due to salt exposure. If that was remotely the case, cities like Toronto - or hell, Vancouver with its 12 months a year salt exposure - would be replacing bridges every year. And everyone would have to drive a plastic car.

Our generally cold climate and freeze/thaw cycles does far, far more damage than the salt we use. Of course, salt can add to the problem but it's a fair trade if it means surviving a drive/walk during wintertime.

For a city that "uses way too much salt", there have been something like 40 people a week being taken to hospital for slipping and falling on icy roads and sidewalks this winter. Imagine that number if we had even more ice out there.

I think Calgary is lucky in that it is still a relatively young city. 50 to 100 years going to have to spend a lot more figuring out how to remediate, repair and replace, plus fund future growth. The freeze/thaw cycle makes things more problematic, cause it causes the cracks to form which will allow the salty water to come into contact with the rebar to rust.

There are compelling reasons to use road salt as it has been highly effective at reducing accidents. Maybe there are corrosion inhibitors that could be applied in addition to the salt?

[Jimby]

http://www.calgary.ca/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_0_104_0_0_35/http%3B/content.calgary.ca/CCA/City+Hall/Business+Units/Roads/Snow+and+Ice+Control/Salt+Management+Plan+FAQs.htm

http://www.calgary.ca/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_0_104_0_0_35/http%3B/content.calgary.ca/CCA/City+Hall/Business+Units/Roads/Snow+and+Ice+Control/Salt+Management+Plan+FAQs.htm

one of these should work

[You Need A Thneed]

Speaking of roads falling apart, McKnight Blvd just south of the runway has seriously deteriorated over the last couple of weeks. It's developing it's annual car swallowing potholes too. That section of road needs to be rebuilt from scratch. It seems to fall apart every year, much more than the average road. It needs to be widened to six lanes as well.

[Radley77]

Speaking of roads falling apart, McKnight Blvd just south of the runway has seriously deteriorated over the last couple of weeks. It's developing it's annual car swallowing potholes too. That section of road needs to be rebuilt from scratch. It seems to fall apart every year, much more than the average road. It needs to be widened to six lanes as well.

What are your thoughts on raising the road elevation?

In this google maps shot you can see there is a storm sewer but drainage definitely looks like it is an issue as the road is relatively low elevation compared to the surrounding ground. With water seaping in and freezing and expanding this just seems like a recipe for ongoing weak spots and problems. Is this why the road seems to fall apart every year?

http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=mcknight+blvd&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=McKnight+Blvd+NE,+Calgary,+Division+No.+6,+Alberta&ll=51.095141,-114.027786&spn=0,0.032938&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.095565,-114.028618&panoid=X4EOzwbFqDbnqXnr2D-D6Q&cbp=12,105.48,,0,12.7

[MalcolmTucker]

Well, there is a plan to upgrade McKnight to 3 lanes with 3 or 4 interchanges between Deerfoot and 36th/Metis. I'm not sure if it made the 10 year list, but it is definitely on the 25 year list.

[You Need A Thneed]

Well, there is a plan to upgrade McKnight to 3 lanes with 3 or 4 interchanges between Deerfoot and 36th/Metis. I'm not sure if it made the 10 year list, but it is definitely on the 25 year list.

Without the Airport Tunnel in place, my guess is that McKnight would need 4 lanes each way in about 10-15 years. With the tunnel in place, the need to upgrade McKnight will be pushed back, but it still will need interchanges eventually (especially at 12th Street).

There's only the stretch between 12th street and 19th street that isn't yet 3 lanes each way. The right of way isn't very wide in that section, and it already has problems with snow drifting over the road on windy days. Widening McKnight will only mean more space that will be buried under drifts in those conditions.

[Koolfire]

With the tunnel in place, the need to upgrade McKnight will be pushed back, but it still will need interchanges eventually (especially at 12th Street).



I'm a little surprised the Province hasn't pushed this issue. The backup east bound usually pushes onto Deerfoot.

It's an interesting design for the interchange as 12th ave is a flyover and access into the industrial is 14th st and aviation road as a right in right out setup. So if your going east and want to go to the Tim's on the north side you would have to turn right onto 14th down to 45th then back to 12th to go north.

As for timeline, who knows. It was on the 2004 TIIP as a project for 2008-10 ish but that clearly didn't happen. I think it's in the 10 currently but I'm not overly confident in that.

[Innersoul1]

I thought that I would read this article that I read in Time magazine last month. It presents the idea of Diverging Diamond interchanges as a more effecient and safer alternative. I don't know if we have the volume to justify this design but it might be useful to consider in the future
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2044725,00.html

[You Need A Thneed]

The diverging diamond seems to be a really good interchange design. I think we should see it more often.

Back to my comment from a little while back - McKnight Blvd between 12 and 19th is really rough. They are going to have to bring in graders to level out the washboards if it gets any worse. I think there are 3-4 "bump" signs in each direction in that stretch, and there are many bumps that don't have signs. It a good thing that the city repaired the car swallowing potholes very early.

It's less than a month until there will be significantly more traffic using that stretch of McKnight, closing lanes to fix it could cause massive traffic delays.

[Mazrim]

Alberta Transportation was seriously considering the use of Diverging Diamonds on Stoney Trail, but decided against it due to the unfamiliarity people would have with it. It would have been used on at least 3 interchanges in the SE. They will likely do it on a smaller project in the near future as a pilot rather a monster project like a ring road.

Back to my comment from a little while back - McKnight Blvd between 12 and 19th is really rough. They are going to have to bring in graders to level out the washboards if it gets any worse. I think there are 3-4 "bump" signs in each direction in that stretch, and there are many bumps that don't have signs. It a good thing that the city repaired the car swallowing potholes very early.

Heritage Drive under Glenmore Trail is a disaster as well, and there are basically no signs to warn people of it. Pretty fun to see what vehicles have decent suspension though. ;)

[You Need A Thneed]

Alberta Transportation was seriously considering the use of Diverging Diamonds on Stoney Trail, but decided against it due to the unfamiliarity people would have with it. It would have been used on at least 3 interchanges in the SE. They will likely do it on a smaller project in the near future as a pilot rather a monster project like a ring road.



Good signage would eliminate all of the confusion. Also, they aren't that complicated, turn left out of the left lane, turn right out of right lane.

I don't think that's more confusing than anything else.

[Bigtime]

Back to my comment from a little while back - McKnight Blvd between 12 and 19th is really rough. They are going to have to bring in graders to level out the washboards if it gets any worse. I think there are 3-4 "bump" signs in each direction in that stretch, and there are many bumps that don't have signs. It a good thing that the city repaired the car swallowing potholes very early.

It's less than a month until there will be significantly more traffic using that stretch of McKnight, closing lanes to fix it could cause massive traffic delays.

Oh god that stretch is becoming horrible for anyone not in a monster truck. I am trying to avoid it as much as possible as I just don't think hitting those washboards can be good for ones car.

[Mazrim]

Good signage would eliminate all of the confusion. Also, they aren't that complicated, turn left out of the left lane, turn right out of right lane.

I don't think that's more confusing than anything else.

I don't disagree with you. They're just being cautious. Driving on the left side of the road might throw people off is probably their biggest concern. I can totally see someone approach the first intersection and try to turn right to stay "on the proper side of the road". We all know how good Calgarians are at reading signs too... :haha:

I would say diverging diamonds are of similar "driver complexity" to a roundabout, and I've seen some incredible things that drivers manage to do at roundabouts before. I can't put it by Canada's Worst Drivers to screw it up somehow.

[YYCguys]

I thought that I would read this article that I read in Time magazine last month. It presents the idea of Diverging Diamond interchanges as a more effecient and safer alternative. I don't know if we have the volume to justify this design but it might be useful to consider in the future
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2044725,00.html

Yes please! :tup:

[Stang]

Maybe some of those uni-directional spikes in the road might help out. Can't read the signs? Four punctured tires!

[mwalker_mw]

It seems that with a bit more land on either side it would be possible to create them with grade separation between the lanes at the crossover point thus completely eliminating the confusion. Does anyone know if this has been tried or if it is impractical for some reason I'm not seeing?

[Oliver Klozov]

It seems that with a bit more land on either side it would be possible to create them with grade separation between the lanes at the crossover point thus completely eliminating the confusion. Does anyone know if this has been tried or if it is impractical for some reason I'm not seeing?

Cost!

In addition to the extra grade separation bridges at each end, the bridge over the main thoroughfare below would have to be separated into two bridges, one higher than the other. It would work but lousy bang for the buck compared with other designs.

[Koolfire]

Cost!

In addition to the extra grade separation bridges at each end, the bridge over the main thoroughfare below would have to be separated into two bridges, one higher than the other. It would work but lousy bang for the buck compared with other designs.

Not necessarily, all depends on how much space you have on the sides. You could cross traffic 100 m before the bridge so that there is enough space for grading. But not every interchange can do this.

I'm thinking Deerfoot/64 might be a option to try this with a retro fit. It doesn't carry crazy amount of through traffic. Maybe Shaganappi and Crowchild, it would be a pretty big and defined crossover. And the traffic light timing blows for that interchange. I can't understand why either, 16th ave / deerfoot similar layout has the light timed so well that it's like clockwork. Shaganappi I always get stuck at a light that feels like forever.

[mersar]

It wouldnt work for crowchild@shaganappi due to the through traffic that is routed across the n/s lanes before going back down and merging to west bound crowchild from the mall and northland drive, or exiting up to northbound northland drive.

deer foot and 64th might be a candidate, It would be interesting to see how it would work there.

[Canadian74]

Regarding the Barlow closure.

Confused since the Airport website and the City website display different maps. The airport website says that the road will stay open between Airport Rd and Airport Tr. While the City website says the road will be CLOSED between Airport Rd and Airport Tr. Which one is correct? Also will McCall Way remain open?

http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/bu/aldermanic/ward_5/2009/airport_tunnel_propsal_map.pdf

http://www.calgaryairport.com/data//1/rec_docs/335_YYC_Map_Arrival_Sept_8.pdf

[Koolfire]

It wouldnt work for crowchild@shaganappi due to the through traffic that is routed across the n/s lanes before going back down and merging to west bound crowchild from the mall and northland drive, or exiting up to northbound northland drive.


I forgot about that. Well, it could still work with cars in the middle as one direction is stopped at a time which would let cars get in and out of the middle but it wouldn't be idiot-resistant.

[Mazrim]

Regarding the Barlow closure.

Confused since the Airport website and the City website display different maps. The airport website says that the road will stay open between Airport Rd and Airport Tr. While the City website says the road will be CLOSED between Airport Rd and Airport Tr. Which one is correct? Also will McCall Way remain open?

http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/bu/aldermanic/ward_5/2009/airport_tunnel_propsal_map.pdf

http://www.calgaryairport.com/data//1/rec_docs/335_YYC_Map_Arrival_Sept_8.pdf

The City's map is wrong. Barlow will still be open between Airport Road and Airport Trail. McCall Way will remain open up to 78th Avenue (The WestJet campus).

[J-D]

Anyone else notice the sudden change in temperatures having a bigger impact on roadways this year? :yuck:

[You Need A Thneed]

Anyone else notice the sudden change in temperatures having a bigger impact on roadways this year? :yuck:

I was noticing a bunch more roads in terrible condition today yes. Apparently McKnight is getting its temporary fixup today that MAY last as long as a year.

[freeweed]

Anyone else notice the sudden change in temperatures having a bigger impact on roadways this year? :yuck:

The roads are WAY worse this year. Too many days of freezing temps and I bet more groundwater than normal. I see what looks like a lot of frost heave out there.

[Bassic Lab]

The roads are WAY worse this year. Too many days of freezing temps and I bet more groundwater than normal. I see what looks like a lot of frost heave out there.

I've noticed that too which kind of surprises me. It seems strange that months of near continuous freezing temperatures would be worse than the near daily freeze-thaw cycle we have seen in recent winters. Could it have something to do with the more aggressive snow clearing we have seen this winter?

[mersar]

I've noticed that too which kind of surprises me. It seems strange that months of near continuous freezing temperatures would be worse than the near daily freeze-thaw cycle we have seen in recent winters. Could it have something to do with the more aggressive snow clearing we have seen this winter?

See this article (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/story/2011/03/09/calgary-bumpy-roads-winter-weather-chinook.html) on CBC which kind of explains it.

[kw5150]

See this article (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/story/2011/03/09/calgary-bumpy-roads-winter-weather-chinook.html) on CBC which kind of explains it.

Lol, typical comment section.

[bookermorgan]

McKnight has been filled. They are now more of a hump.

[freeweed]

I've noticed that too which kind of surprises me. It seems strange that months of near continuous freezing temperatures would be worse than the near daily freeze-thaw cycle we have seen in recent winters. Could it have something to do with the more aggressive snow clearing we have seen this winter?

From mersar's link:

fewer chinooks and longer cold stretches than normal this winter haven't allowed the underground water to thaw and escape into the soil.

The water freezes and expands as a result, pushing the pavement up.

It seems counter-intuitive to people, but regular freeze-thaw cycles in Calgary actually HELP our roads. At least compared to long freezes. Obviously no freezing at all would be best. ;)

Compare Calgary's roads to say Winnipeg sometime. A long steady freeze can destroy pavement in just a few years. They have different soil types which compound the problem, but a lot of it is just simple frost heave.

[craner]

Walked down Stephen Ave this morning and the amount of salt residue is disgusting.:yuck: Everything is covered in a chalky white powder - even vertical surfaces for a couple of feet up. I can only imagine the damage it is doing to the trees. I don't recall it being this bad in previous years.
Do we really need to use that much salt on what is primarily a pedestrian mall ? :hell:
End rant

[You Need A Thneed]

freeze thaw cycle may help our roads from frost heave, but they just increase the size of the potholes. I fully expect that these next few days of freeze thaw will turn the repair work done on McKnight into something worse than it was before.

Last year, there was a pothole on McKnight on that stretch that I would be VERY surprised if it didn't rip someone's axle right off their car. There was a big deep one earlier this winter, but it was repaired much quicker this time.

[Mazrim]

From a maintenance perspective, they'll take potholes over frost heaving any day. Generally frost heaving is much larger area and tougher to even temporarily fix. I remember a specific example on the Trans Canada between Golden and Revelstoke that was so bad they had to put up numerous warning signs and flashers to slow traffic down to 50km/h over it. At least a pothole they can just throw some cold mix into it while they wait for Spring to show up.

[kw5150]

Walked down Stephen Ave this morning and the amount of salt residue is disgusting.:yuck: Everything is covered in a chalky white powder - even vertical surfaces for a couple of feet up. I can only imagine the damage it is doing to the trees. I don't recall it being this bad in previous years.
Do we really need to use that much salt on what is primarily a pedestrian mall ? :hell:
End rant

you must have missed my rant last month.....lol same principle. I watched a bunch of city guys spreding it like crazy the other day. It should be for spot treating ice......not a blanket treatement for a skiff of snow!

[freeweed]

From a maintenance perspective, they'll take potholes over frost heaving any day. Generally frost heaving is much larger area and tougher to even temporarily fix. I remember a specific example on the Trans Canada between Golden and Revelstoke that was so bad they had to put up numerous warning signs and flashers to slow traffic down to 50km/h over it. At least a pothole they can just throw some cold mix into it while they wait for Spring to show up.

It's really bad this year. I can only imagine what the spring is going to bring.

[freeweed]

Walked down Stephen Ave this morning and the amount of salt residue is disgusting.:yuck: Everything is covered in a chalky white powder - even vertical surfaces for a couple of feet up. I can only imagine the damage it is doing to the trees. I don't recall it being this bad in previous years.
Do we really need to use that much salt on what is primarily a pedestrian mall ? :hell:
End rant

This isn't road maintenance though, this is pedestrian-driven. The sidewalks in downtown Calgary are just sick right now in terms of how much salt is there.

Blame lawyers, and sue happy people that refuse to wear proper footwear. But we live in a city where it's a capital offense to not shovel the city's property, so it's to be expected.

[Mazrim]

It's really bad this year. I can only imagine what the spring is going to bring.
My guess is about half as bad as Medicine Hat is right now. I felt like I was driving through a slalom course there compared to driving in Calgary the last little bit.

[sheldonsgongshow]

From a maintenance perspective, they'll take potholes over frost heaving any day. Generally frost heaving is much larger area and tougher to even temporarily fix. I remember a specific example on the Trans Canada between Golden and Revelstoke that was so bad they had to put up numerous warning signs and flashers to slow traffic down to 50km/h over it. At least a pothole they can just throw some cold mix into it while they wait for Spring to show up.

I rememeber that well. If ya didn't slow down you felt like ya were getting air time.

And that stretch under the graves bridge nearly made me shat my pants yesterday. It dosen't help having air bags on my pickup either. Felt like i was in an ejection seat. :haha:

[Ferreth]

Potholes are one of the few real reasons to have an off road vehicle in Calgary. Assuming it's a real off road vehicle that can actually deal with a few bumps.

Seriously, we have nothing on Saskatoon. Between ice on the side of the road forcing me over, and potholes making me swerve around, some areas have effectively lost a driving lane.

Oh, and NB Barlow just south of Glenmore today was a hoot - whole road covered in muddy water with potholes lurking underneath. I tried for speed to hydroplane over 'em, the big splash was fun!

[freeweed]

Seriously, we have nothing on Saskatoon.

We have nothing on most prairie cities. People who complain loudly about Calgary's roads haven't driven much else in the west. This year is shaping up to be the worst I've seen here and it's still pretty lightweight compared to what I grew up with.

It's still shit, but it's nothing compared to several cities that I will not name for fear of inevitable flamewarage.

[craner]

Blame lawyers, and sue happy people that refuse to wear proper footwear. But we live in a city where it's a capital offense to not shovel the city's property, so it's to be expected.

I was thinking the same thing FW - they probably just overkill with the salt to avoid even a single person slipping . . . and the result is the city is left with this big ugly mess in one of it's most prominent areas. :(

[AB Born]

And that stretch under the graves bridge nearly made me shat my pants yesterday. It dosen't help having air bags on my pickup either. Felt like i was in an ejection seat. :haha:

Yeah.... that stretch is really bad.

Also, NB Deerfoot between Memorial and 16th Ave (right lanes) is bad. I remember when they repaved Deerfoot a few years ago they said "it will last 20 years". Really?

[Koolfire]

Yeah.... that stretch is really bad.

Also, NB Deerfoot between Memorial and 16th Ave (right lanes) is bad. I remember when they repaved Deerfoot a few years ago they said "it will last 20 years". Really?

That merge lane is brutal. Few know that there is a train tunnel right there. Probably part of the problem.

The trick on the merge lane is to merge in as soon as there is the dashed line.

[Mazrim]

The new asphalt on Deerfoot will last 15-20 years...unless the Earth under it heaves and tosses it to hell.

[shogged]

northbound deerfoot from seton blvd to 130th ave has about 6 massive plates of frost heave now. whole section is going to have to be repaved. you can tell the people who drive over it everyday because they slow down well in advance, and the poor people who are unaware fly into these things at 110 and you just watch them jump out of their seats!

going to be a fun construction season haha

[Innersoul1]

http://www.calgarysun.com/news/columnists/michael_platt/2011/03/14/17602806.html

Why is this guy such a captain douche!

[Innersoul1]

The city's biggest problem is that the roundabouts in this city are poorly labelled. There is no signage to assist with the process of helping people to learn.

[Bigtime]

http://www.calgarysun.com/news/columnists/michael_platt/2011/03/14/17602806.html

Why is this guy such a captain douche!

Just PM forumer bluespenny, that is him. Don't know if he is lurking around here anymore though.

[tmjr]

Report calls for more roundabouts (http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/calgary/Report+calls+more+traffic+roundabouts+Calgary+What+think/4434117/story.html)

"City officials are recommending a policy that would see more roundabouts built in new developments and also adopted at existing intersections warranting capital upgrades or suffering from safety or capacity problems." Woot! :cheers::banana: Hope they actually act on this...

Regarding issues of entering the roundabout during rush hour, would a design where there are traffic lights on the entry roads (NOT in the actual roundabout as I've seen in some London UK RAs) be a solution? The traffic lights would normally be inactive, but during heavy traffic they could be activated, and the intersection would behave more like a regular intersection.

Also, are two lane roundabouts even an option in Calgary, or would that confuse drivers too much?

[Ramsayfarian]

Report calls for more roundabouts (http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/calgary/Report+calls+more+traffic+roundabouts+Calgary+What+think/4434117/story.html)

Woot! :cheers::banana: Hope they actually act on this...

Regarding issues of entering the roundabout during rush hour, would a design where there are traffic lights on the entry roads (NOT in the actual roundabout as I've seen in some London UK RAs) be a solution? The traffic lights would normally be inactive, but during heavy traffic they could be activated, and the intersection would behave more like a regular intersection.

Also, are two lane roundabouts even an option in Calgary, or would that confuse drivers too much?


The Highfield Road circle is two lanes, but it's kind of confusing as some exits will handle two lanes and others don't.

I've read that article twice now and I can't figure out what part is douchie. He seems to be presenting both sides fairly.

[Oliver Klozov]

I couldn't care less what some bozo from somewhere else says, I grew up in Edmonton and we never, ever called them roundabouts; they are TRAFFIC CIRCLES! ;)

As the first comment in that Sun story suggests the single lane circles aren't too bad. It's when you get into the double lane ones that all hell breaks loose. In developing neighborhoods, they will probably work just fine until the traffic volumes require a change to a traffic light intersection. At higher volumes and especially a rush hour which gives disparate entry, their efficiency is gone.

[Oliver Klozov]

Regarding issues of entering the roundabout during rush hour, would a design where there are traffic lights on the entry roads (NOT in the actual roundabout as I've seen in some London UK RAs) be a solution? The traffic lights would normally be inactive, but during heavy traffic they could be activated, and the intersection would behave more like a regular intersection.



Back around 1980, Edmonton added lights to the circle at 118 Ave - St Albert Trail/Groat Road. I haven't driven through that intersection in a few years but I suspect it's still there. There was some talk of removing it and switching to conventional traffic lights.

[Oliver Klozov]

There was some talk of removing it and switching to conventional traffic lights.

Just checked the city's website and found this from last year:

About the Traffic Circle

The City reviewed the feasibility of replacing the traffic circle with a signalized intersection. Construction of a signalized intersection would cost several million dollars, which is not proportionate to the scope of the rehabilitation.

The traffic circle will be redesigned and widened to increase the capacity without the need for a signalized intersection.

[Ramsayfarian]

I couldn't care less what some bozo from somewhere else says, I grew up in Edmonton and we never, ever called them roundabouts; they are TRAFFIC CIRCLES! ;)

As the first comment in that Sun story suggests the single lane circles aren't too bad. It's when you get into the double lane ones that all hell breaks loose. In developing neighborhoods, they will probably work just fine until the traffic volumes require a change to a traffic light intersection. At higher volumes and especially a rush hour which gives disparate entry, their efficiency is gone.

Traffic circles and Roundabouts are two different things. Google it if you don't believe me.

[Oliver Klozov]

Traffic circles and Roundabouts are two different things. Google it if you don't believe me.

Of course I believe you; I know exactly what you're talking about. I'm a Civil Engineer from the University of Alberta. My professors called them traffic circles. Everybody in Edmonton calls them traffic circles. The City of Edmonton still calls them traffic circles. Just because some Euro clowns decided that what we have in Edmonton are called roundabouts over there, is no reason we have to here.

Maybe on these icy roads this winter, perhaps one of your tyres hit the kerb! ;)

[Mazrim]

Traffic circles and Roundabouts are two different things. Google it if you don't believe me.
+1. Edmonton's traffic circles are ancient and nothing like modern roundabouts.

Anyone complaining about extra signage is stupid. You put TOO much signage before a roundabout, you're only increasing driver workload. There's only so much that can be done on the road. Part of it has to be driver education, which the government and city has done a good job of. They can't force people to read all the stuff they've given out about them though...we have to be part of the solution.

I guess I'm being a little optimistic though...the idiots in this city have issues handling a four way stop!!!!

Of course I believe you; I know exactly what you're talking about. I'm a Civil Engineer from the University of Alberta.
You're not looking very hard into the major differences between a roundabout and traffic circle then.

[Innersoul1]

+1. Edmonton's traffic circles are ancient and nothing like modern roundabouts.

Anyone complaining about extra signage is stupid. You put TOO much signage before a roundabout, you're only increasing driver workload. There's only so much that can be done on the road. Part of it has to be driver education, which the government and city has done a good job of. They can't force people to read all the stuff they've given out about them though...we have to be part of the solution.

I guess I'm being a little optimistic though...the idiots in this city have issues handling a four way stop!!!!


You're not looking very hard into the major differences between a roundabout and traffic circle then.

I was in Mackenzie Towne on the weekend and they have a pseudo 2 lane rounabout. It is an example of where drivers get confused. I am not talking about a detailed sign. More like this:

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/80ECE784-A6A9-4A26-B1CD-FEEA44BF4C44/0/LaneControlSign.jpg

vs. this which tells you NOTHING

http://www.saskatoon.ca/DEPARTMENTS/Infrastructure%20Services/Transportation/neighbourhood/PublishingImages/round_yield.gif

[freeweed]

Signage is a complete non-issue, at least on single lane roundabouts. This is pretty simple and people who do not figure this out should lose their licenses damned fast. When entering, you have a yield sign. Therefore, like all other yield signs on the road, YOU YIELD TO ONCOMING TRAFFIC. When in the circle, you have no yield sign. Therefore, like every other situation where you encounter no yield sign, YOU DO NOT YIELD.

This is grade 3 reasoning at best and anyone who cannot figure this out should be ticketed, and eventually lose their license. It's no different than someone running a red because they're "in a hurry" - um, seriously? That's the best this article could come up with? You run a red light, you get fined. You drive backwards in a roundabout, you get fined. Why is this so complex?

Granted, people in general are stupid and it may take a decade or more before drivers get comfortable with them, but that's no reason not to go with them. We have far too many stop signs and 4-way lights on intersections that would be much better served with a roundabout.

I found it highly ironic that a professional driving instructor talks about how people don't know what to do - um, buddy, that's your JOB. Teach them. Yeesh.

Now, multi-lane roundabouts - I'm not much of a fan. And I've driven in areas where drivers supposedly know what they're doing. They still end up being a mess.

[Oliver Klozov]

You're not looking very hard into the major differences between a roundabout and traffic circle then.

Wrong. I know what the difference is according to the dictates of someone from somewhere else.

Bottom line is, if I have a client that wants to call them roundabouts then that's what they are. If I have a client that wants to call a Wikipedia roundabout, a traffic circle, then that's what they are. If my client is the City of Edmonton then they are traffic circles. :yes:

Seeing as Edmonton has had "traffic circles" for probably close to a century, then that's what they should be called in Alberta.

To me the term traffic circle makes more sense. To me, the term roundabout only implies something that helps you make a U-turn.

Roundabout :koko:

Traffic Circle :tup:

[Innersoul1]

The other issue is that people need to learn how to signal in roundabouts (generally for that matter) you know if you are taking the first exit of the roundabout right flasher on, if proceeding through left flasher on and then right flasher on when you are exiting.

[Mazrim]

Seeing as Edmonton has had "traffic circles" for probably close to a century, then that's what they should be called in Alberta.
Right, because we should never let go of old sayings or standards, ever. Why aren't we calling them rotaries then? That's what they were called before traffic circles became the popular name. If we let Edmonton control how we name everything, then Stoney Trail would be Stony Trail. Oh right, because of Stony Plain in Edmonton, right. I've seen people mispell Stoney Trail numerous times because "it's how we spell it here". Great. That's not how we spell it here. These aren't just everyday joes. These are Alberta Transportation officials who are highly involved in the ring road.

Also, "The dictates of someone from somewhere else?" That's a very american way to put things. How DARE someone else other than a glorious Edmontonian propose a way to do something! Our way is perfect and no one can tell us otherwise! Protect our way of life or else!

The modern roundabout is the way of the future, and if you're going to ignore it because it comes from "some old codger country on the other side of the atlantic" then you're as ignorant as the drivers who refuse to learn how to drive them.

I was in Mackenzie Towne on the weekend and they have a pseudo 2 lane rounabout. It is an example of where drivers get confused. I am not talking about a detailed sign. More like this:

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/80ECE784-A6A9-4A26-B1CD-FEEA44BF4C44/0/LaneControlSign.jpg


You're in luck. The McCall Way roundabout will have these lane assignment diagrams. I don't know if that would work for McKenzie Towne because there's enough time to read a sign that would show how it would work for all exits since the two lanes go all the way around though. You can't put too much information in one place, it's just too confusing to drivers as they're approaching the roundabout.

The McCall Roundabout only has two lanes heading through from Barlow to McCall and vice-versa. It's pretty straight forward if you ask me, but they requested them anyway.

P.S. I suck at driving the McKenzie Towne roundabout!

[freeweed]

Bottom line is, if I have a client that wants to call them roundabouts then that's what they are. If I have a client that wants to call a Wikipedia roundabout, a traffic circle, then that's what they are. If my client is the City of Edmonton then they are traffic circles. :yes:

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't really think you're getting this. This isn't a case where someone built a traffic circle, and decided to call it a roundabout. They are two similar, but different things.

This isn't just a case of different names for the same thing. They're fundamentally different in how they operate.

If Edmonton has been calling their roundabouts "traffic circles" all this time, then sorry, the entire planet disagrees with you. They're not the same thing and shouldn't be called the same thing. You wouldn't call a diamond interchange a "cloverleaf" just because some people don't understand the difference.