Calgary Roads

[SubwayRev]

Odd. I drive over 40,000 km a year, much of that in the city, and I never ever get stuck in traffic (other than exceptional weather events or massive accidents).

You drive 40,000km each year without driving to work? I barely drive half that, and I drive to work on the other side of the city everyday!

[UofC.engineer]

I find it hard to believe Calgary has worse traffic than Vancouver. Go to Hastings, Broadway, Cambie or Grandville streets during rush hour...It ain't pretty.

I don't know about Macleans sometimes...some of their surveys and facts seem a little off to me. Not to mention they rate UofC so low every year, but I guess it's just me being bias:haha:

Oh yea; and the Golden Ears bridge from Maple Ridge to Langley already takes a pic of your license plate and sends you the bill at the end of the month.

[frinkprof]

I find it hard to believe Calgary has worse traffic than Vancouver. Go to Hastings, Broadway, Cambie or Grandville streets during rush hour...It ain't pretty.

I don't know about Macleans sometimes...some of their surveys and facts seem a little off to me. Not to mention they rate UofC so low every year, but I guess it's just me being bias:haha:

Oh yea; and the Golden Ears bridge from Maple Ridge to Langley already takes a pic of your license plate and sends you the bill at the end of the month.Correction: *biased. Maybe the ratings aren't so off after all.

In all seriousness though, Macleans is fluff most of the time, and I agree that the university rankings are pretty sketchy.

[Mazrim]

I've spent a fair amount of time driving in Vancouver and Calgary, and I'd say they're pretty even. While Vancouver may have heavy volume on their major routes, the Trans Canada Highway for example still moves at a good pace WB until you reach the Port Mann Bridge, then picks up again after, very similar to how Deerfoot Trail slows down SB near Anderson and picks up again after.

I've been in some terrible traffic jams in Vancouver, but then again, the same has happened in Calgary.

You'd be surprised at how travel time doesn't vary a whole lot in Vancouver, at least in my experience.

[freeweed]

You drive 40,000km each year without driving to work? I barely drive half that, and I drive to work on the other side of the city everyday!

To be fair a lot of that is major road trips, plus driving into the mountains every other weekend. But yeah, I drive a sick amount in the city compared to most people. I just enjoy exploring places I'd never get to otherwise (I hate being one of those people that knows of few neighbourhoods beyond their own). I probably put 1-200km a day on the car during garage sale season alone. Plus all the casinos are a hell of a drive from us.

Driving to work across the city works out to less than 10,000km/yr (one of us does it), and people average something like 20,000 on any given vehicle. Work commuting really isn't as much as people think.

[freeweed]

I've spent a fair amount of time driving in Vancouver and Calgary, and I'd say they're pretty even. While Vancouver may have heavy volume on their major routes, the Trans Canada Highway for example still moves at a good pace WB until you reach the Port Mann Bridge, then picks up again after, very similar to how Deerfoot Trail slows down SB near Anderson and picks up again after.

I've been in some terrible traffic jams in Vancouver, but then again, the same has happened in Calgary.

You'd be surprised at how travel time doesn't vary a whole lot in Vancouver, at least in my experience.

I think then you might be surprised at how much travel time DOES vary in Calgary then. The cities are almost incomparable. In Calgary, if it's rush hour - yeah, you get slowdowns on Deerfoot. And traffic jams. But during the other 20 hours of the day, nothing. Nada. Zilch. Average speeds are literally double or even triple.

For a city that supposedly sprawls out to nowhere, I can drive from just about the furthest point to the opposite point in about 45 minutes (Royal Oak to Copperfield to visit a buddy). I guarantee you that that is impossible in Toronto, and I'm pretty sure it's impossible in Vancouver's metro as well - although I've never tried exactly that run so maybe I'm wrong. Hell, I can barely cross Winnipeg in 45 minutes, and the city is 3/4 the size.

[Mazrim]

Every time I go from Surrey to Metrotown, it's 30 minutes...although I have never tried it in the morning rush (who goes to the mall in the morning?).

Mission to Tsawwassen is always 1 hour, even in rush hour. A few years ago that wouldn't have been the case, but thanks to the Golden Ears and the Langley bypass, it's possible.

As a side note, I was happy to note I only did 30,000km on my car in 2010. I'm at 206,000km on my 2005 Civic. :(

[SubwayRev]

To be fair a lot of that is major road trips, plus driving into the mountains every other weekend. But yeah, I drive a sick amount in the city compared to most people. I just enjoy exploring places I'd never get to otherwise (I hate being one of those people that knows of few neighbourhoods beyond their own). I probably put 1-200km a day on the car during garage sale season alone. Plus all the casinos are a hell of a drive from us.

Driving to work across the city works out to less than 10,000km/yr (one of us does it), and people average something like 20,000 on any given vehicle. Work commuting really isn't as much as people think.

I figured you must be doing a lot of out of town driving to get that much. I rarely drive out of town, and use my car mostly only to go to work and back.

I'm only at 85,000km on a six-year old car.

[frinkprof]

Yeah I always thought the general rule of thumb is that most urban North Americans rack up most of their mileage on commuting and errands as opposed to weekend out-of-town jaunts and longer trips.

[bigcanuck]

Kinda road related...

If you were to spend a weekend in downtown Calgary with a car, where would you park? We have friends staying at the Palliser and they're looking to cut down on the $37/day valet charge.

[Jimby]

Kinda road related...

If you were to spend a weekend in downtown Calgary with a car, where would you park? We have friends staying at the Palliser and they're looking to cut down on the $37/day valet charge.

All they have to do is park it themselves in Palliser Square west parkade. The entrance is the alley directly east of the Palliser's front door. I have no idea what the daily rate is, but it must be less than $37 a day on weekends! Once parked, there is an entrance to the hotel from the parkade.

[freeweed]

They likely won't have in/out privileges in a parkade. May or may not be a concern for them depending on what they're doing.

One in a long line of reasons I do a hell of lot more research when travelling compared to the average person. $37/day isn't even the worst I've seen.

[Jimby]

They likely won't have in/out privileges in a parkade. May or may not be a concern for them depending on what they're doing.

One in a long line of reasons I do a hell of lot more research when travelling compared to the average person. $37/day isn't even the worst I've seen.

I hadn't thought about the in/out thing, but they should be able to park it for the weekend and walk to the myriad of attractions available to them!
No one wants a confused tourist driving in front of them...

[mwalker_mw]

Alternately, Convention Centre Parkade - quite cheap on weekends, heated, indoor, etc. Only a couple blocks away. Sunday, might as well just leave it on the street.

[bigcanuck]

I was going to recommend street parking for Sunday as long as they move it off the main roads by Monday morning before the restrictions set in.

[DizzyEdge]

They can park it in my backyard for free :)

[Jack Doe]

The agenda for the council meeting on Monday the 7th is available:

http://agendaminutes.calgary.ca/sirepub/mtgviewer.aspx?meetid=115&doctype=AGENDA

Scroll down to item 9.1.1.

Some relevant excerpts:

ADMINISTRATION RECOMMENDATIONS:
That Council:
1. Direct Administration to award RFP 10-1940 for detail design to the highest rated proponent, waive the circulation period to Council and proceed with design of the Airport Trail underpass, four lane road from Barlow Trail to Métis Trail, and two lane road from Métis Trail to 60 Street NE (Option 3C); as per the recommended cross-section configuration (Attachment 1);

3. Approve a budget appropriation for Program 855 Airport Underpass not to exceed $294.8 million (including $36.0 million in bridge financing costs).

Appropriation to include:
• $78.5 million in 2011,
• $106.6 million in 2012,
• $69.6 million in 2013,
• $18.7 million in 2014,
• $6.1 million per year in 2015-2017 inclusive; and
• $3.1 million in 2018.

Funding to come from:
a. Reserve for Future Capital ($25 million in 2011),
b. Municipal Sustainability Initiative (MSI) Innovation Fund ($123 million in 2018),
c. MSI Contingency Fund ($50 million in 2018); and
d. Reallocation of $97 million from Transportation unallocated MSI, Transportation Infrastructure Program 543 Provincial Ring Road Connectors, and other Transportation Capital Programs to Program 855 Airport Underpass.

Opening Day
• two lanes in each cell, per direction
• [one more lane in each direction, or an] option to add primary transit or HOV lane, per direction
• standard shoulder and lane widths
Interim
• could accommodate a dedicated transit lane in addition to two lanes in each cell, (per direction with reduced lane widths)
Ultimate
• three lanes per direction plus a dedicated transit way, (lane width is obtained by reducing the shoulder widths)

Attachment 1 shows the cross sections, road network, the ultimate road connection to the terminal, and more details on the costs and financing.


Personally, I hope this happens. We should know one way or another on Monday.

[You Need A Thneed]

List of communities for which, going through the tunnel is the quickest way to the airport (remember that the SE ring road will be open as well, and the Airport Trail connects to Stoney):

Skyview Ranch, Saddleridge, Martindale, Taradale, Castleridge, Falconridge, Coral Springs, Whitehorn, Temple, Horizon Industrial, Sunridge Industrial, Rundle, Pineridge, Monterey Park, Marlbourough, Marlbourough Park, Abbeydale, Penbrooke, Applewood Park, Large chunks of Foothills Industrial, Copperfield, MacKenzie Towne, MacKenzie Lake, Cranston, Auburn Bay, Mahogany,Chaparral, Silverado, Sundance, Somerset, Bridlewood, Priddis, Okotoks, High River, Nanton, Chestermere, Strathmore, Langdon, Brooks, De Winton, Alderside, Black Diamond, Turner Valley, Irricana, Beiseker, Medicine Hat.

At slower traffic times on Deerfoot, you could probably add to the list: Evergreen, Shawnessy, Midnapore, Millrise, Douglasdale, Deer Ridge, Deer Run, Parkland, Queensland, and perhaps more.

Remember too, that the closure of Barlow will add some traffic onto an already busy portion of Deerfoot, making backups worse, and thus, more likely that some of the communities in the second list join the first list.

[SubwayRev]

List of communities for which, going through the tunnel is the quickest way to the airport (remember that the SE ring road will be open as well, and the Airport Trail connects to Stoney):

Skyview Ranch, Saddleridge, Martindale, Taradale, Castleridge, Falconridge, Coral Springs, Whitehorn, Temple, Horizon Industrial, Sunridge Industrial, Rundle, Pineridge, Monterey Park, Marlbourough, Marlbourough Park, Abbeydale, Penbrooke, Applewood Park, Large chunks of Foothills Industrial, Copperfield, MacKenzie Towne, MacKenzie Lake, Cranston, Auburn Bay, Mahogany,Chaparral, Silverado, Sundance, Somerset, Bridlewood, Priddis, Okotoks, High River, Nanton, Chestermere, Strathmore, Langdon, Brooks, De Winton, Alderside, Black Diamond, Turner Valley, Irricana, Beiseker, Medicine Hat.

At slower traffic times on Deerfoot, you could probably add to the list: Evergreen, Shawnessy, Midnapore, Millrise, Douglasdale, Deer Ridge, Deer Run, Parkland, Queensland, and perhaps more.

Remember too, that the closure of Barlow will add some traffic onto an already busy portion of Deerfoot, making backups worse, and thus, more likely that some of the communities in the second list join the first list.

That is all one large assumption on the absolute worst-case scenario traffic. From most of the communities you listed, it would be much faster to take Deerfoot, 90% of the time.

[fusili]

That is all one large assumption on the absolute worst-case scenario traffic. From most of the communities you listed, it would be much faster to take Deerfoot, 90% of the time.

I would agree with YNAT. Much faster to take the ring road and then 96th avenue then take Deerfoot.

[SubwayRev]

I would agree with YNAT. Much faster to take the ring road and then 96th avenue then take Deerfoot.

Respectively, I'll disagree with both of you. Many of the communities are right on Deerfoot (McKenzie Towen) and would involve 5 to 10 extra kilometers to take Stoney. Others listed are on West of Deerfoot. People who live there aren't going to drive to Stoney Trail to get to the airport. While Deerfoot does get backed up at times, I still think it'll be faster for the vast majoirty, most of the time.

[craner]

The agenda for the council meeting on Monday the 7th is available:
Ultimate
• three lanes per direction plus a dedicated transit way, (lane width is obtained by reducing the shoulder widths)

This drives me nuts - I hate when they do this. :hell:

[craner]

Respectively, I'll disagree with both of you. Many of the communities are right on Deerfoot (McKenzie Towen) and would involve 5 to 10 extra kilometers to take Stoney. Others listed are on West of Deerfoot. People who live there aren't going to drive to Stoney Trail to get to the airport. While Deerfoot does get backed up at times, I still think it'll be faster for the vast majoirty, most of the time.

I live right off Deerfoot in the SE and would definitely consider taking Stoney to the Airport. Like you say, it depends on the time of day. It will be nice to have the option anyway when rushing to make a flight.
:cheers:

[freeweed]

Respectively, I'll disagree with both of you. Many of the communities are right on Deerfoot (McKenzie Towen) and would involve 5 to 10 extra kilometers to take Stoney. Others listed are on West of Deerfoot. People who live there aren't going to drive to Stoney Trail to get to the airport. While Deerfoot does get backed up at times, I still think it'll be faster for the vast majoirty, most of the time.

I'm going to agree with everyone here. Really, if it's during rush hour - no question Stoney will be faster. But during the rest of the day (ie: most of the time)? Deerfoot will be just as fast or faster for a lot of these people.

And I say this as someone who routinely drives that extra 5-10km via Stoney to get somewhere that has otherwise more direct routes. The extra 2-5 mins of driving (remember, this is a 100km/h road) is more than worth it when you eliminate lights, etc. However, most people tend to think in terms of "shortest path" when determining their route, so I still think most would end up on Deerfoot unless it was rush hour.

[Mazrim]

Even in the middle of the day, people are unable to drive the speed limit on Deerfoot. I'll take Stoney any day.

[freeweed]

Even in the middle of the day, people are unable to drive the speed limit on Deerfoot. I'll take Stoney any day.

Get in the left lane - I drive well over the speed limit there all day long (outside of rush hour). :D

I know what you mean though. I'd still take Stoney myself too, if only to avoid the hassle.

[Jack Doe]

Ultimate
• three lanes per direction plus a dedicated transit way, (lane width is obtained by reducing the shoulder widths)

This drives me nuts - I hate when they do this. :hell:

This bugs me too. How much would it cost to add another 1.2m to a 35.4m wide tunnel and keep the lane widths at a standard 3.7m? I would think that wider lanes in a tunnel would be preferable as this is the last place you'd want to have an accident.

[You Need A Thneed]

The Stoney route will only be 1-2 kms longer than Deerfoot, not 5-10. That's how much Deerfoot goes back and forth instead of straight north and south. Any slowdown on Deerfoot at all would make Stoney faster.

[You Need A Thneed]

Ultimate
• three lanes per direction plus a dedicated transit way, (lane width is obtained by reducing the shoulder widths)



This bugs me too. How much would it cost to add another 1.2m to a 35.4m wide tunnel and keep the lane widths at a standard 3.7m? I would think that wider lanes in a tunnel would be preferable as this is the last place you'd want to have an accident.

Extra width on a structure like this can make the cost go up significantly, since the structure has to be stronger to hold up the roof, plus you need additional materials, etc. I think it could easily add 5% to the cost of the project, which would be about $10 million. That's just a guess, but it makes sense to me.

[You Need A Thneed]

I'm just comparing the distances on google maps right now.

I set the start point on HWY 22X just west of deerfoot, and the end point at the corner of Airport Trail and Barlow trail. Google maps says that the distance up Deerfoot is 35.7 km. If I place intermediate points in so that it takes me along 84th Street to 17th to Stoney to CHB, and then down Barlow, it says 41.9 km. But then, we have to delete the distance between where stony is and where 88th/84th Street is (800 metres ish x 2), AND the distance between Airport Trail and CHB (1.6km x 2). Altogether I have to subtract 4.8 km from the 41.9 that Google Maps gives me, so that leaves 37.1 km. However, the East ring road will have a smoother curve to turn northbound and to turn west onto Airport Trail than the corners at 88th Street and at CHB are - that would save a couple of hundred metres, let's say 200.

So, then distance up Deerfoot is only ~1.2 km shorter than the distance up Stoney - roughly 3 percent shorter. 3 persent is easily made up if you can average a higher speed on Stoney. Certainly you won't be able to average a higher speed on Stoney all of the time, but for good chunks of the daylight hours you certainly would. Like I said, if there is ANY kind of slowdown on Deerfoot, it's going to be faster to take Stoney. If all of a sudden Stoney gets posted with a 110km/h speed limit, it would be faster at almost any time of day.

[MalcolmTucker]

I haven't done physics in a long time, but this seems a situation where the square law or something similar would apply. For every x% width increase, strengthening would have to increase by its square, back of enveloping it to a x^2 or more cost increase.

[Jack Doe]

Extra width on a structure like this can make the cost go up significantly, since the structure has to be stronger to hold up the roof, plus you need additional materials, etc. I think it could easily add 5% to the cost of the project, which would be about $10 million. That's just a guess, but it makes sense to me.

$10m sounds about right. I found this in Attachment 1 in the agenda report to council (in relation to a pedestrian and bicycle path):

"This would require an additional three metres on one span, estimated at an additional $27 million in construction costs."

In my view, the additional cost is worth it. I suppose the engineers were trying to reduce costs in order to make the project as palatable to council as possible, but I prefer it be built properly the first time, especially when there is no hope of retro-fitting it. Probably a moot point anyways.

[frinkprof]

Airport Tunnel is in front of council right now.

Watch online:

http://www.calgary.ca/cws/councilwebcast_new.html

or Channel 89 on Shaw Cable.

[YYCguys]

Shoot! I missed it. Had to go out. Well guess I will have to wait for the Evening News. Hope they get it right (the news people that is).

[frinkprof]

^They are in-camera right now. It won't be decided until likely after their dinner break, so well into the evening.

[Koolfire]

^They are in-camera right now. It won't be decided until likely after their dinner break, so well into the evening.

Who's winning so far?

[YYCguys]

Sounds like it's going to go further into the evening. And if I'm understanding the meeting correctly (and I may be mistaken because I started watching in the middle of the item), it sounds like it's not going very well in favor of the tunnel.

[mersar]

Sounds like it's going to go further into the evening. And if I'm understanding the meeting correctly (and I may be mistaken because I started watching in the middle of the item), it sounds like it's not going very well in favor of the tunnel.

Well so far if I'm understanding it they haven't really even talked about yes or no on the project. Alderman Farrell went off on a tangent that took a while related to financing and then asking administration about reclassifying Metis (which passed). The fact that John Mar says he has 10 amendments does worry me a bit. But its sounding like its going to be a long night yet.

[YYCguys]

Agenda Report for Airport Trail Underpass. Not sure if this had been posted, but it was quite interesting and detailed reading into the project!

http://agendaminutes.calgary.ca/sirepub/agdocs.aspx?doctype=agenda&itemid=3171

[Koolfire]

Watching this thing makes me think we need commentators like in sports. Too many quiet moments and a bunch of arcane procedures that not many people that haven't attended a council meeting will understand.

[YYCguys]

Agreed! I am having trouble following along! :koko:

And I hope that the Mayor is taking this time to remind Mar not to be a little prick and to speak with respect to his fellow Council members. Baby on the way or not, the way he speaks is unacceptable, IMHO.

[Jack Doe]

I agree with you about Mar. He was acting like a child who wasn't getting his way. I'm surprised he didn't throw a tantrum.

[mersar]

Well we're getting closer to the end of this council meeting, finally. Pootmans and Keating have both just came straight out and said they support it. Macleod is against it. Demong is also in support, and like Pootmans is saying its because his constituents are in support of it. Carra is echoing the same thing as well.

Lots of interesting tidbits coming out, and my general thinking is it will pass, but how close is the question.

[craner]

:previous: All we need is 8 right ?
Come on - be logical councilors - build the underpass.

[Koolfire]

Only 7 councilors plus mayor. So we have 3 or 4 councilors?

[mersar]

At least 4 that have outright said they are in support, and a couple others who I'd say are. Naheed is speaking on it now, so we're down to the last few minutes of the debate.

[YYCguys]

Mersar, you beat me to the Alderman by Alderman decisions made known already! :)

[You Need A Thneed]

The vote will be 8-7 in favour, when it is made in a couple of minutes.

[frinkprof]

Yup. It will be:

For - Stevenson, Jones, Pootmans, Carra, Chabot, Keating, Demong, Nenshi

Opposed - Hodges, Lowe, MacLeod, Farrell, Mar, Pincott, Colley-Urquhart

[mersar]

And the result from a recorded vote is:

Mar - No
Macleod - No
Pootmans - Yes
Keating - Yes
Demong - Yes
Colley-Urquart - No
Lowe - No
Hodges - No
Stevenson - Yes
Jones - Yes
Farrell - No
Carra - Yes
Chabot - Yes
Pincott - No

Nenshi - Yes

So thats a go :) Finally

[YYCguys]

Vote was indeed 8-7 in favour!

[You Need A Thneed]

hopefully that's the last 8-7 vote that this council makes.

[MalcolmTucker]

As long as they aren't 8-7 for the reasons this one was (egos, not being able to see the forest through the trees, opposing spending blindly) then I am fine with 8-7.

[craner]

^^ Indeed Appleby.
Whew! Closer vote than I would have liked though.

[Bigtime]

My dislike of Mar grows even stronger, but judging by the way Pashak has been conducting himself on twitter and facebook he may not have been a good choice either.

Fusili for ward 8.

[reflexzero]

Alderman Farrell went off on a tangent that took a while related to financing and then asking administration about reclassifying Metis (which passed).

Egads. The lack of actual road connections in the NE is incredulous, especially regarding the ring road. Reducing Metis trail to another Calgary branded goat trail is a typical retaliatory thinking. If the airport tunnel question was in the SW or NW, council would have been singing a different tune.

[frinkprof]

My dislike of Mar grows even stronger, but judging by the way Pashak has been conducting himself on twitter and facebook he may not have been a good choice either.

Fusili for ward 8.Yeah Pashak has lost a lot of respect from me. I'm fine with him being opposed to the tunnel, but he has been extremely unprofessional and unbecoming in the way he has voiced that opposition.

[You Need A Thneed]

My dislike of Mar grows even stronger, but judging by the way Pashak has been conducting himself on twitter and facebook he may not have been a good choice either.

Fusili for ward 8.

Pashak's tweeds have been unfitting someone who wants a seat on council, IMO.

[frinkprof]

Pashak's tweeds have been unfitting someone who wants a seat on council, IMO.I think we need more tweeds on council personally. It would offset Mar's fancy garbs.

[Bigtime]

I'm glad I'm not the only that thought his behaviour was unbecoming of someone that wants a seat on council. I'm actually regretting my vote for him now, that's why I'm all for Fusili for ward 8!

[You Need A Thneed]

I don't really have a problem with Metis being downgraded, now that Airport Trail will go through. It made no sense to downgrade Metis before, when the tunnel was looking like a longshot.

The only section of Metis that's not built is under constuction. Metis isn't going to turn into something like 36th street further south. It will eventually be something like Anderson is now.

[You Need A Thneed]

Pashak's tweeds fit right in with the bottom of the barrel comments on online news articles. He keeps ranting on why the tunnel is wrong, then never backs it up.

Compare that to other council members, and people who ran, but didn't get elected.

I'm guessing Zak just blew his shot at ever getting elected.

[fusili]

My dislike of Mar grows even stronger, but judging by the way Pashak has been conducting himself on twitter and facebook he may not have been a good choice either.

Fusili for ward 8.

I was not impressed with Pashak either. He had little to contribute to the discussion other than that the underpass is a road and all roads lead to sprawl. However, I could very easily be accused of doing exactly the same thing- just look at my posting on the SWRR thread. :haha: :haha: I do it mostly to play devil's advocate, but I shouldn't be the pot calling the kettle black.

But an internet forum that is all about endless discussion and off topic rants is one thing, council chambers is another.

PS- Forget me for Ward 8, how about Bigtime for Ward 8!! Littletime would win him all the mom votes for sure. I would just piss people off with my yuppie lifestyle.

[Mazrim]

He had little to contribute to the discussion other than that the underpass is a road and all roads lead to sprawl.

There were at least two councillors who made the same comment last night. Sad, really.

My favorite moment from watching council last night was actually not part of the airport tunnel proceedings. The motion before the tunnel was some parking lot in the beltline, and Oscar Fech was making a brilliant performance as usual!

[Bigtime]

I was not impressed with Pashak either. He had little to contribute to the discussion other than that the underpass is a road and all roads lead to sprawl. However, I could very easily be accused of doing exactly the same thing- just look at my posting on the SWRR thread. :haha: :haha: I do it mostly to play devil's advocate, but I shouldn't be the pot calling the kettle black.

I quoted some of YNAT's arguments for the tunnel on his posts, things like how it will service a HUGE chunk of the SE as well. Received no rebuttal from him, so I would assume that to mean he had nothing to come back with.

Instead he played cards like "It's an ego project" and other such things that really didn't seem to be in his character. It definitely got noticed, and I think he lost quite a few supporters due to it.

As for me going for public office, no way. Leave the thankless jobs to those that are braver than me. :tup:

[fusili]

There were at least two councillors who made the same comment last night. Sad, really.

My favorite moment from watching council last night was actually not part of the airport tunnel proceedings. The motion before the tunnel was some parking lot in the beltline, and Oscar Fech was making a brilliant performance as usual!

I know I have made similar comments, but mostly as devil's advocate. But here we have a proposal for a tunnel WITH CAPACITY SPECIFICALLY BUILT IN FOR AN LRT ROW. I don't see how Pincott, Mar and Farrell (who I see as the most pro-transit proponents on council) failed to notice this. If I had the chance I would have presented and made the note that building the tunnel is the most effective way to create a transit link between NC Calgary and NE Calgary, and the airport is simply a stop on the way. The tunnel is a breath of fresh air for me, because for once council is making long term decisions. Otherwise it was a situation of being penny wise but pound foolish.

[Bigtime]

Here's a wild idea:

-Could the North Central LRT line eventually head east and link up with the NE line via the tunnel?

[jeffwhit]

^^ That just sounds like a whole new line to me, one that connects the NE line with the NE line or something.

[fusili]

Here's a wild idea:

-Could the North Central LRT line eventually head east and link up with the NE line via the tunnel?

That is exactly the idea I have. 96th Avenue/Airport Trail could serve as a BRT/LRT/Disneyland people mover link between the NC LRT at Aurora Park and the NE LRT at 96th Avenue station. You would have two stations in between: YYC and a station just past Deerfoot where you would have a highspeed rail/commuter rail from Airdrie transfer station. Building the tunnel allows us to connect the entire east side of the city not just to the airport, but to NC Calgary (the Country Hills Commercial area is becoming quite a hub), Airdrie and Edmonton. As well it makes any transit connection from the NC line to the airport that much more effective, as it is no just an airport stub, but serves as a crosstown route as well. NC residents can use it to get to 96th avenue station, where the 52nd Street BRT (proposed by Calgary Transit planning) would terminate. So the tunnel also connects NC Calgary (and Airdrie) residents to the SE industrial by transit. From a transit perspective it was a no-brainer in my mind.

[freeweed]

Mar is awesome. From the Herald story on the vote:

It passed by an 8-7 vote just after midnight. Ald. John Mar was opposed: "We’re blowing our load on one infrastructure project."

One of the classiest guys, for sure. For once I actually agree with some of the comments on a newspaper story.

[mersar]

I have to agree with those who are disapointed in Mar, it seemed like a whole lot of grandstanding was his intention last night and I was glad to see that most of his 10 amendments to the proposal weren't even allowed to be introduced (mostly as they exposed information from the in-camera report). And while I haven't seen most of Zak's comments either, I don't think they are that important. I personally doubt he'll run next time anyways, he doesn't even live in Calgary anymore from what I understand. He sold Broken City recently and has been managing his restaurant in Vancouver since the election, and there was an interview in the Gauntlet with him about Sled Island, specifically his reduced role in running it, and he mused that he's looking at possibly moving to the states (Detroit was mentioned as one possible place).

[jeffwhit]

Again, what does the YYC undertunnelpass cost when compared to a typical interchange that is built without debate and as a matter of routine, and more importantly, DOES NOT SERVE THE FREAKING AIRPORT?

Regarding disappointment with John Mar, doesn't disappointment imply expectation?

[Bigtime]

Regarding disappointment with John Mar, doesn't disappointment imply expectation?

Haha, touche sir.

[sheldonsgongshow]

Apparently this thing isn't out of the woods now cause the airport authority is saying that they don't want the tunnel built on their land now. Makes no sense to me because they've known about this project for a long time.

[Ferreth]

Apparently this thing isn't out of the woods now cause the airport authority is saying that they don't want the tunnel built on their land now. Makes no sense to me because they've known about this project for a long time.

Source for that? Last I heard this afternoon, on CBC 1 was a canned statement from the airport authority saying the negotiations were ongoing with some "critical details" still to work out, at the end of this segment talking about the next steps in the rush process to get the tunnel built (http://www.cbc.ca/homestretch/episode/2011/02/08/airport-tunnel-1/).

[Joborule]

That is exactly the idea I have. 96th Avenue/Airport Trail could serve as a BRT/LRT/Disneyland people mover link between the NC LRT at Aurora Park and the NE LRT at 96th Avenue station. You would have two stations in between: YYC and a station just past Deerfoot where you would have a highspeed rail/commuter rail from Airdrie transfer station. Building the tunnel allows us to connect the entire east side of the city not just to the airport, but to NC Calgary (the Country Hills Commercial area is becoming quite a hub), Airdrie and Edmonton. As well it makes any transit connection from the NC line to the airport that much more effective, as it is no just an airport stub, but serves as a crosstown route as well. NC residents can use it to get to 96th avenue station, where the 52nd Street BRT (proposed by Calgary Transit planning) would terminate. So the tunnel also connects NC Calgary (and Airdrie) residents to the SE industrial by transit. From a transit perspective it was a no-brainer in my mind.
Could be possible to link up to the NW as well so you have a northern crosstown route that covers all of the north.

[Koolfire]

I don't really have a problem with Metis being downgraded, now that Airport Trail will go through. It made no sense to downgrade Metis before, when the tunnel was looking like a longshot.

The only section of Metis that's not built is under constuction. Metis isn't going to turn into something like 36th street further south. It will eventually be something like Anderson is now.

Are we sure about that. I wish the admin person (I total forget his name) would of given an example. My thoughts it's going to be like Country hills between Beddington and Deerfoot. Designed to 6 lanes but 60km speed limit and a light like every 300 metres. I hope it's going to be like Blackfoot or Anderson but I'm not to confident about it. A freeway would be overkill as you have Deerfoot 5km to the west and Stoney 4km to the east.

As for council, I can't figure out if they we're playing dumb or just plain dumb. This whole MSI funding cut the council is all worried about, while possible, quite unlikely.

As for Mar, I don't remember all the antics. But it did seem he was trying to put as much red tape on this project as possible. Curious about the coming baby, was it real concern or just a good reason so that the session could be suspend till Nenshi was out of town so that the motion fails tie 7-7.

I'm in ward 4 so I was paying attention to Mcleod and I don't think she has her priorities straight. Building new rec centres, how about lowering that bar to just bring up the standard of the existing ones. I remember going about a year ago to Thornhill rec centre and trying the exercise equipment but half were partially broken which was really sad as there was few machines to go around. Never realized until then how important those straps on the bikes pedals were until then. I could be completely wrong now after a year, but I doubt it.

Best quotes of the night to the best of my memory:
Councilor: I like the idea of public input,.... but no. During the vote for more public input into the project.

Transportation Admin: Well, to be frank about the timeline for LRT to the airport, we have never had plans for an LRT to the airport.

I learn something, I could never do admins jobs that report to council for the same reason as I wouldn't be a teacher. I can't put up with kids.

[Koolfire]

Curious, how many people would be in favour or against renaming Barlow Trail north of the section that gets closed. It's already in 2 pieces but it's easy to differentiate Barlow by North and South but the 3 section might cause a confusion that can be avoid with a rename. Now would be the time to a best time to do it.

[Jack Doe]

Curious, how many people would be in favour or against renaming Barlow Trail north of the section that gets closed. It's already in 2 pieces but it's easy to differentiate Barlow by North and South but the 3 section might cause a confusion that can be avoid with a rename. Now would be the time to a best time to do it.

I'd be in favour of renaming the far north and south sections. Perhaps Stonegate Blvd and Foothills Blvd, respectively?

[Bigtime]

I believe I heard around these parts that it is planned to rename the section of Barlow that will still be around north of the terminal.

[You Need A Thneed]

Are we sure about that. I wish the admin person (I total forget his name) would of given an example. My thoughts it's going to be like Country hills between Beddington and Deerfoot. Designed to 6 lanes but 60km speed limit and a light like every 300 metres. I hope it's going to be like Blackfoot or Anderson but I'm not to confident about it. A freeway would be overkill as you have Deerfoot 5km to the west and Stoney 4km to the east.

It's not going to be like CHB between Beddington and Deerfoot.
Let's break it down into sections:

McKnight to 64th: already built to 6 lanes wide, no potential or reason for adding lights in the future. Speed limit posted at 70, should be 80.

64th to 80th: Already 2 lanes, costruction contract in place to make it 4 lanes. I suupose there is a possibility of adding a light (only from the west side) when old industrial area redevelops, but certainly not multiple lights. I don't think there will ever be any lights.

80th to 96th (airport Trail): currently doesn't exist - under construction for completioni of one lane each way this year. This is the stretch that could see the most change, as it is not yet built to any standard. The problem with changing it, is that the two lanes will be built be the time any redesignation is made. I could certainly see a light intermediate along the way here, or else the future residential community will have no access on two of four sides. However, community planning is done, and the developer would have to decide that they want to rework their plan.

96th - CHB: Road is complete for a couple of years now - 2 lanes each way, with a ditch median in a wide right of way. Is not yet open to traffic, as it doesn't go anywhere.

CHB to Stoney: built to expressway standard and in operation, with a wide ROW. No potential to add a extra light into Skyview Ranch in the future, all that development is done.

All together, the ~10km section of road will have 5 lights on it (one of those turned into an interchange in the future - Airport Trail) with perhaps an oppurtunity is the road is resdesignated to add at most 2-3 more. That's still an average of over 1 km between lights.

[You Need A Thneed]

I believe I heard around these parts that it is planned to rename the section of Barlow that will still be around north of the terminal.

I think it's been called Barlow Crescent on some of the planning drawings. Crescent, because North of CHB, it curves around to the East, and then back south to CHB.

[freeweed]

Curious, how many people would be in favour or against renaming Barlow Trail north of the section that gets closed. It's already in 2 pieces but it's easy to differentiate Barlow by North and South but the 3 section might cause a confusion that can be avoid with a rename. Now would be the time to a best time to do it.

This may be due to my extremely non-traditional nature, but I think there should be an actual bylaw that every single street should be renamed as soon as it is disrupted. I absolutely cannot stand trying to use street names to navigate in a city like this. Don't get me started on Sarcee. I don't give a shit about historical this and that, roads have names for a single purpose - navigation.

I also think roads that clearly are the same continuous road should be named the same, but that's a bit harder logistically. There are more grey areas there.

[DizzyEdge]

Problem is though that means that almost every street would have multiple names, even most north-south aves would have different names downtown and in the beltline. I would probably support that though for more major arteries, ones you expect to get you places.

[freeweed]

Problem is though that means that almost every street would have multiple names, even most north-south aves would have different names downtown and in the beltline. I would probably support that though for more major arteries, ones you expect to get you places.

Yeah, it really messes with the numbered grid system. Obviously if you're numbering streets (which I like), you can't give a new name just because of a railroad track.

[YYCguys]

Curious, how many people would be in favour or against renaming Barlow Trail north of the section that gets closed. It's already in 2 pieces but it's easy to differentiate Barlow by North and South but the 3 section might cause a confusion that can be avoid with a rename. Now would be the time to a best time to do it.

It should be a relatively quick and painless process as I do believe that there aren't any actual businesses that use the words "Barlow Trail" in their formal addresses along the section between the Airport and CHB. Freeport Something would make sense since that's the name of the business park in that area.

This may be due to my extremely non-traditional nature, but I think there should be an actual bylaw that every single street should be renamed as soon as it is disrupted. I absolutely cannot stand trying to use street names to navigate in a city like this. Don't get me started on Sarcee. I don't give a shit about historical this and that, roads have names for a single purpose - navigation.

I also think roads that clearly are the same continuous road should be named the same, but that's a bit harder logistically. There are more grey areas there.

Agreed!!! There are tons of examples, apart from Sarcee! I would have a heyday (I have to admit I'm a bit of a map geek and I actually look for stuff like that and make up new street names in my mind. But the only problem with that, is that businesses and residences have to pay for the change to their addresses and for the inconvenience it causes them. Airdrie has just gone through a similar issue with the renaming and renumbering of addresses along East Lake Blvd).

[frinkprof]

I also think roads that clearly are the same continuous road should be named the same, but that's a bit harder logistically. There are more grey areas there.Beddington Trail is renamed Range Road 23, Country Hills Boulevard is now Township Road 254 and Harvest Hills Boulevard becomes Range Road 13? Sounds good to me.

[bookermorgan]

thats because you are a surveyor :)

[lubicon]

Beddington Trail is renamed Range Road 23, Country Hills Boulevard is now Township Road 254 and Harvest Hills Boulevard becomes Range Road 13? Sounds good to me.

Isn't it Beddington Trail until it reaches Stoney Trail, then changes names to Symons Valley Road until it reaches the City limits?

So we have non contiguous roads the share a common name and contiguous roads that change their names periodically.

Anothe example is Memorial / Parkdale Blvd / Bowness Road. Road has 3 different names despite you never making a turn.

[jeffwhit]

Nothing beats this:

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?gl=ca&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=209291089720738282875.00049bf825b74547c3c16&ll=43.666599,-79.402785&spn=0.004113,0.010568&t=h&z=17

And yes, the addresses start fresh at 1 N. of Bloor.

[DizzyEdge]

Isn't it Beddington Trail until it reaches Stoney Trail, then changes names to Symons Valley Road until it reaches the City limits?

So we have non contiguous roads the share a common name and contiguous roads that change their names periodically.

Anothe example is Memorial / Parkdale Blvd / Bowness Road. Road has 3 different names despite you never making a turn.

Bowness Road is a really weird one, it's been so mangled that a lot of it makes no sense now. The impression I get is that originally you'd take a left off Kensington Rd at the Plaza theatre,
down Kensington Crescent, down Kensington Close, down Bowness Road Across 14th st, continue on bowness road across Crowchild, down the little 25st/Bowness road block,
then on to what is now Parkdale Blvd. Then you'd continue west on Parkdale, left where Parkdale turns into 3 Ave, continue along the shore, around the current point mackay community,
up into Montgomery View (note the few houses there seemingly in the middle of nowhere), continue west onto 16th ave, then as 16th ave turns from NW to West near the
Safeway/"Bon a pet treat pet bakery" it would continue onto the current Bowness Rd and then across the John Hextall Bridge.

All of these many roads, were at one time all a contiguous Bowness Rd, as far as I can tell.

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/4087/bownessrd.jpg

[freeweed]

Winnipeg's got a road that's 6 or 7 names, without turning, plus another road that's in 5 or 6 separate sections, all named the same. Someone from the Wpg contingent inevitably follows up with the correct details so I'll leave it at that. :P

[YYCguys]

Another example is Memorial / Parkdale Blvd / Bowness Road. Road has 3 different names despite you never making a turn.

Make that 4: In Bowness itself, Bowness Road turns into 60th Street for a short block before it terminates at Bow Cres. :koko:

[dmuzika]

Winnipeg's got a road that's 6 or 7 names, without turning, plus another road that's in 5 or 6 separate sections, all named the same. Someone from the Wpg contingent inevitably follows up with the correct details so I'll leave it at that. :P

I'm not from Winnipeg, but I wonder if that road used to go through multiple municipalities? Prior to 1972, Winnipeg was the largest of 13 municipalities - with the region being comprised of the municipalities of Charleswood, Fort Garry, North Kildonan, Old Kildonan, Tuxedo, East Kildonan, West Kildonan, St. Vital, Transcona, St. Boniface, St. James-Assiniboia, and Winnipeg; all were Metropolitan Corporation of Greater Winnipeg (similar to the current Lower Mainland where there's Vancouver, Burnaby, Surrey, etc. under Metro Vancouver). It's possible that the road went through a few of those municipalities and had a different name through every town.

[You Need A Thneed]

Dwight McLellan Trail - Metis Trail - 36th Street

52nd St - Falconridge Blvd - Saddletowne Circle - 60th st (Might be Northpointe Blvd or something like that in the future)

32nd Ave - 32nd Ave (connector) - 41st Ave - 40th Ave.

Also, there are streets fro which if you want to stay on the street with the same street name as the one you are currently on, you must turn instead of going straight. Northmount Drive/Cambrian Drive/10th Street; 17th Ave SE where it turns into Blackfoot, etc.

Aves in Calgary are supposed to be E/W and Streets N/S, but looking at the maps, you can turn directly from 17th Ave onto 9th AVe, drive on 9th ave for a block and then turn directly onto 17th Ave again on the other side.

[Ramsayfarian]

Whilst not as broken up as Bowness rd, Spiller rd is a tad discombobulated as well. And the portion that goes through Ramsay was once Macleod Trail. The sidewalk on the corner of Spiller and 24 Ave SE. has Macleod Trail stamped in the concrete.

[DizzyEdge]

Whilst not as broken up as Bowness rd, Spiller rd is a tad discombobulated as well. And the portion that goes through Ramsay was once Macleod Trail. The sidewalk on the corner of Spiller and 24 Ave SE. has Macleod Trail stamped in the concrete.

Sweet, I was wondering if that was still there.

[Ramsayfarian]

Sweet, I was wondering if that was still there.

It is. I keep meaning to get a photo of it, as it's only a matter of time before the city rips it up.

[DizzyEdge]

It is. I keep meaning to get a photo of it, as it's only a matter of time before the city rips it up.

There actually has been some minor discussion about preserving old sidewalks/sidewalk stamps, although so far I believe the results of such discussions is that city roads crews would be happy to rip them up and give them to us haha.

[Koolfire]

I remember going about a year ago to Thornhill rec centre and trying the exercise equipment but half were partially broken which was really sad as there was few machines to go around. Never realized until then how important those straps on the bikes pedals were until then. I could be completely wrong now after a year, but I doubt it.


I'll take that back. Went today and the equipment was fine but there just wasn't enough machines to go around. And the space they have for it is a little cramped. So there is room for improvement. I also don't remember the tv's before.