Calgary Roads

[MalcolmTucker]

Do you know when the Province shelved the outer road idea? Was there any announcement or reasoning?
They stopped talking about it, but nothing is ever really shelved. I think they just wanted to stop speculation before the corridors were approved for assembly. And since the province has changed the rules for land assembly for long term capital projects twice since the mid-2000s, the slow speed makes sense.

[craner]

Give it time.
RE: Post 4392

Give what time?:shrug:

[5seconds]

They stopped talking about it, but nothing is ever really shelved. I think they just wanted to stop speculation before the corridors were approved for assembly. And since the province has changed the rules for land assembly for long term capital projects twice since the mid-2000s, the slow speed makes sense.

Thanks. I have some information from around 2005/2006, but nothing much recently.

RE: Post 4392

Give what time?:shrug:

I think he means give Stoney Trail time, and that it too will eventually be bumper to bumper like Deerfoot, Glenmore etc.

[fusili]

RE: Post 4392

Give what time?:shrug:


I think he means give Stoney Trail time, and that it too will eventually be bumper to bumper like Deerfoot, Glenmore etc.

Yup.

[DizzyEdge]

any metrics from increasing traffic and estimated capacity which we could use to guess when that might occur?

[craner]

^Ok, thanks for clarifying, I wasn't sure what Fusili meant.
Reminds me of people saying GE5 shouldn't be built for the same reason - Glenmore was so much better before (sarcasm).

[DizzyEdge]

8th st between 17th ave and Prospect used to have more treed boulevards, but they were chopped down to widen the street in 1960:

http://ww2.glenbow.org/dbimages/arc13/t/na-2864-1981-7.jpg
glenbow.org

:previous: I think this is on the east side of 8th between 19th and Royal Ave

http://ww2.glenbow.org/dbimages/arc13/t/na-2864-1981-6.jpg

[5seconds]

The City is doing a series of open houses, workshops and a Citizens Working Group as they look at the development of Transportation Corridor Studies for the City.

http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation/TP/Pages/Projects/Current-Planning-Projects/Transportation-Corridor-Study-Review-Project.aspx?redirect=/corridorstudies

Transportation Planning is conducting a review of the transportation corridor study process to create a new Corridor Study Terms of Reference Policy that will allow The City to better prioritize and plan transportation corridors in Calgary.

The Transportation Corridor Study Review Project is designed to examine the current processes for undertaking transportation corridor studies at the City of Calgary in order to recommend changes that will be the basis for the new Corridor Study Terms of Reference Policy as directed by the City Council Notice of Motion NM2012-51.

A new Corridor Study Terms of Reference Policy is required to provide direction for how future City of Calgary transportation corridor studies will be completed. The new policy will provide for a more consistent, open and collaborative approach to transportation corridor studies by engaging stakeholders and citizens to incorporate their feedback into the transportation corridor study decision-making process.

EDIT: should mention that the first open house is tomorrow, and there are 4 total over the next week or so.

[Fuzz]

16th ave and 19th st recommended option picked:

http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation/TP/Pages/Planning/Transportation-Planning-Studies/16-Avenue-and-19-Street-Interchange-Study.aspx?redirect=/16ave19st

Is Barlow Trail really going form no lights to 2 sets? Looks like a step backwards there...

16th ave and Deerfoot looks like a big change!

http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation/TP/PublishingImages/16ave-recommended-option.png

[5seconds]

Alberta's first ever cloverleaf is disappearing! Built in 1956.

http://calgaryringroad.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/1956_cloverleaf_barlow_1.jpg

[You Need A Thneed]

The one cloverleaf that worked, since the space given to it was so huge.

[Ramsayfarian]

I don't think this technology would work in Calgary as our lights appear to be triggered by random, but this sounds kind of cool.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/autos/audi-wants-to-make-stopping-at-red-lights-a-thing-of-the-past-1.1723744

[Fuzz]

Alberta's first ever cloverleaf is disappearing! Built in 1956.



Cool. Was Barlow the original Edmonton Trail or am I misreading the caption?

[5seconds]

Cool. Was Barlow the original Edmonton Trail or am I misreading the caption?

Edmonton Trail was the original, and then in the 1950s Barlow was going to be/was the new Highway 2. Barlow was scrapped as Highway 2 because of how it related to the Airport and Blackfoot/Deerfoot was planned as the number 2.

[Fuzz]

Cool, thanks!

[Mazrim]

I'm not going to miss the cloverleaf. You've got those extra long ramps on the outside, and they end in sudden yields on roads with traffic travelling at 70km/h+...just not fun to use if there's any amount of traffic.

[5seconds]

Airport tunnel set to open May 25, and a chance to walk through it the day before:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/calgary/Airport+tunnel+open/9615411/story.html

[Fuzz]

Airport executives used the tunnel contract to ban the city from linking it to Metis Trail until the city helps fund interchanges next to the air terminal.

What? Really? Because hey, you wouldn't want to make it easier for people to get to your facility.... So basically the tunnel is totally useless until we meet their demands...What interchange improvement do they want?

[mersar]

What? Really? Because hey, you wouldn't want to make it easier for people to get to your facility.... So basically the tunnel is totally useless until we meet their demands...What interchange improvement do they want?

A full interchange at 19th I believe is the biggest demand.

[DoubleK]

A full interchange at 19th I believe is the biggest demand.

19th and Barlow/Airport Trail. The Barlow one is going to be pretty expensive, they will likely have to buy a bunch of land on the NW corner.

[Fuzz]

So in any case, that area will continue to be a construction area for years to come. It seams that road and the interchanges have been rebuilt and rejigged countless times in the past decade. They probably should have done it right before closing Barlow, but I guess that's how they do this things in this city...

[H.E.Pennypacker]

So there is not going to be a connection from the tunnel to Metis Trail then when it opens in May? And won't be connected until the City contributes some money to the interchange redevelopments as specified?? Damn...

Is there a master plan or overview of what the area is supposed to look like ideally when those interchanges/tunnel is complete?? I'm trying to figure out how the 19th/Barlow routes would connect to the airport and where exactly...

[Cage]

What? Really? Because hey, you wouldn't want to make it easier for people to get to your facility.... So basically the tunnel is totally useless until we meet their demands...What interchange improvement do they want?

By putting the interchange demands in the contract with City, the CAA is making it easier for the vast majority of its customers and employees to get to Airport.

There were a few elephants in the room during CAA-City discussions.
1) Before Barlow was shuttered, most users of Barlow and Airport Trails were not destined for the airport, instead this group was using Airport roads as a cut through. Closing Barlow Trail eliminated this traffic and cut traffic on Airport Trail by 2/3 to 3/4. The city wanted the Tunnel to cater to this traffic while CAA desired getting rid of this traffic at all costs.
2) The city has a long history of making promises regarding future road improvements and then not following through on those promises when the road utilization warrants improvements be constructed. Bowfort Rd and Highway 1 is one such example.
3) There are differences in what the City is willing to deem acceptable congestion and what the airport considers unacceptable congestion. This is where traffic congestion differences lead to the claim by the city the interchange would not be required for many years where as the CAA claims the interchange could be required in as little as 10 years.

The scenario that CAA is trying to avoid is one where traffic congestion at the intersection of Airport and Barlow warrants construction of the interchange but the City does not have funds and/or political will to fund the interchange. Further the airport can take care of its traffic without the need for an interchange; enough traffic to warrant an interchange will be due to cross town traffic that is City responsibility.

From an airport destination perspective and ignoring all other destinations; not building Airport Trail out to Metis Trail only negatively impacts the residents of Martindale, Taradale, Saddle Ridge, Castleridge, Falconridge, and Coral Springs. Even then, these communities could use 64 Avenue to 36 Street to Airport Trail.

By removing or highly discouraging traffic not destined for the airport, the CAA is making it possible so the only Airport Trail users are destined for the Airport. This positively impacts everyone not originating from the communities mentioned in the above paragraph.

Some people have also brought up the issue regarding airport destined cars that use eastern portion of Stoney Trail. The counter argument is that City transportation plans did not have extending Airport Trail to Stoney within the next 20 years. Therefore Stoney trail cars destined for the Airport would have to use either McKnight or Country Hills Blvd and would not use 96th Avenue/Airport Trail.

The final nail in the coffin (from CAA perspective) was Councilor Farrell motion to downgrade Metis Trail from arterial to major road status in order to help defer interchange development in the North East.

[Fuzz]

-snip-

By removing or highly discouraging traffic not destined for the airport, the CAA is making it possible so the only Airport Trail users are destined for the Airport. This positively impacts everyone not originating from the communities mentioned in the above paragraph.

-snip-

That's nice that the Airport wants its own private expressway, but shouldn't they pay for it then? They seam to want everything done to their terms, and only begrudgingly accepted the tunnel. If the city is paying for all the roads and interchanges, shouldn't it be available to all taxpayers?

Clearly the route from Stoney to Airport trail would be the preferred route for anyone in the south, or south of Calgary. It also keeps the traffic off of overloaded Deerfoot. Why is the city so conciliatory to the Airport? It seams a well built road with good access is good for everyone. From the sounds of it, The Airport would be happier with a big brick wall on Airport trail, with only turns south into the terminal.

[You Need A Thneed]

The airport has agreed to pay $20 million of the first phase of the required interchanges, and 50% of the second phase (years in the future). They were not required to pay anything for these.

I don't necessarily agree that traffic levels at the start would require interchanges, but the airport was protecting against the city not having the money or political will to complete them when they are required. I hope an alternate form of security can be found, because that section of airport trail will be desperately needed in 5ish years, and the city's share of the interchanges probably would still be spent better elsewhere at that point.

[Acey]

You can understand the airport's perspective on this issue. It is entirely the city's fault that they have such poor foresight and allowed traffic in the NE to become such a disaster.

[5seconds]

What are the most effective methods for traffic calming that are not just speed bumps or reduced speed limits?

I think there may be a call in my community for traffic calming on our main roads, which each 1 mile long, straight, and wide enough that people do often go 60-70km/h in a 50km/h zone.

That pedestrian injury map that came out a few weeks ago (was that a forum members?) shows only 2 minor injuries on both roads over the last 15+ years, so my instinct is that calming is maybe not really needed, but in case it becomes an issue, I wanted to see what else can be discussed.

Speed bumps and 30km/h limits would seem to be disproportionately inconveniencing (and maybe ineffective?) to solve a problem that may not really exist, and I know there are members here who know better than I (and probably most of the residents in my community) what measures are effective and when it's appropriate to implement them.

Thanks!

[Full Mountain]

What are the most effective methods for traffic calming that are not just speed bumps or reduced speed limits?

I think there may be a call in my community for traffic calming on our main roads, which each 1 mile long, straight, and wide enough that people do often go 60-70km/h in a 50km/h zone.

That pedestrian injury map that came out a few weeks ago (was that a forum members?) shows only 2 minor injuries on both roads over the last 15+ years, so my instinct is that calming is maybe not really needed, but in case it becomes an issue, I wanted to see what else can be discussed.

Speed bumps and 30km/h limits would seem to be disproportionately inconveniencing (and maybe ineffective?) to solve a problem that may not really exist, and I know there are members here who know better than I (and probably most of the residents in my community) what measures are effective and when it's appropriate to implement them.

Thanks!

Does the roadway have on-street parking? Is it possible to narrow the roadway? Curb bump outs at intersections are another method that seems relatively effective. Is there anyway to induce a curve into the roadway?

20th Ave N is a fairly good example of a narrow roadway that controls speed without a lower speed limit.

[5seconds]

Does the roadway have on-street parking? Is it possible to narrow the roadway? Curb bump outs at intersections are another method that seems relatively effective. Is there anyway to induce a curve into the roadway?

20th Ave N is a fairly good example of a narrow roadway that controls speed without a lower speed limit.

66th avenue SW between Crowchild and 37th street was a 4 lane road (parking both sides), but a few years ago the City changed it to essentially 2 lanes, plus one parking lane and cycle lanes. where the road intersects with a cross street (only 2 along the 1 mile) the curb comes into the road more to narrow it to the travel lanes and cycle lanes (if that makes sense). Not much parking is actually used. It also has a school zone in the middle.

37th street between Glenmore Trail and 66th avenue is 3 lanes: 2 travel lanes and one parking lane. The parking is heavily utilized. I suspect that there is no real way to narrow the road (it feels fairly narrow now, especially northbound beside the parking lane).

[artvandelay]

IMO, narrow streets are the best form of traffic calming. Interior roads in the Beltline have some of the calmest traffic in the city without the need for ridiculous traffic calming measures like speed-bumps, fake traffic circles, and roadblocks.

[Full Mountain]

66th avenue SW between Crowchild and 37th street was a 4 lane road (parking both sides), but a few years ago the City changed it to essentially 2 lanes, plus one parking lane and cycle lanes. where the road intersects with a cross street (only 2 along the 1 mile) the curb comes into the road more to narrow it to the travel lanes and cycle lanes (if that makes sense). Not much parking is actually used. It also has a school zone in the middle.

37th street between Glenmore Trail and 66th avenue is 3 lanes: 2 travel lanes and one parking lane. The parking is heavily utilized. I suspect that there is no real way to narrow the road (it feels fairly narrow now, especially northbound beside the parking lane).

Couple thoughts:

- On 66th if you moved the cycle lanes to a 2 way cycle track on the south side of the road with parking between it and the traffic lane, this might help. The current cycle lane (paint) just becomes part of the roadway, you need someway of preventing drivers from utilizing that space for driving [two examples in one (https://www.google.ca/maps/@50.994587,-114.127931,3a,75y,90.4h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sMjhmnqJ3QMuLDmt0qkPf4g!2e0)].

- Also is it possible to place trees or some other vertical item along the South side of 66th and on the west side of 37th where there isn't parking? This would increase the perception of speed.

- addition of curb bumpouts to the other intersections [like this one (https://www.google.ca/maps/@50.994548,-114.139406,3a,75y,292.42h,76.75t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1skmsfZiX48rQAe9Y9p02xWA!2e0!6m1!1e1)] like you see at the Linden Dr intersection

The key being you want to add elements that increase the perception of speed, without increasing the danger. Addition of a number of 4 way stops or traffic lights would help too, ultimately congestion is your best friend.

You have two roads that are the ultimate safe roads - straight, wide, and free from visual obstructions - you need need a number of obstructions to bring drivers focus back to the road. Safe roads for vehicles = complacent drivers.

[5seconds]

Couple thoughts:

- On 66th if you moved the cycle lanes to a 2 way cycle track on the south side of the road with parking between it and the traffic lane, this might help. The current cycle lane (paint) just becomes part of the roadway, you need someway of preventing drivers from utilizing that space for driving [two examples in one (https://www.google.ca/maps/@50.994587,-114.127931,3a,75y,90.4h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sMjhmnqJ3QMuLDmt0qkPf4g!2e0)].

- Also is it possible to place trees or some other vertical item along the South side of 66th and on the west side of 37th where there isn't parking? This would increase the perception of speed.

- addition of curb bumpouts to the other intersections [like this one (https://www.google.ca/maps/@50.994548,-114.139406,3a,75y,292.42h,76.75t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1skmsfZiX48rQAe9Y9p02xWA!2e0!6m1!1e1)] like you see at the Linden Dr intersection

The key being you want to add elements that increase the perception of speed, without increasing the danger. Addition of a number of 4 way stops or traffic lights would help too, ultimately congestion is your best friend.

You have two roads that are the ultimate safe roads - straight, wide, and free from visual obstructions - you need need a number of obstructions to bring drivers focus back to the road. Safe roads for vehicles = complacent drivers.

I appreciate the thoughts. It all makes sense to me, and I would hate to have things like speed bumps being introduced if there are better ways of going about it. Thanks!

[kw5150]

Yes. Trees, benches and anything that increases the perception of speed (things flying by) can be a good thing. Also, having more to look at has been a proven way of reducing speed. Some kind of gateway or entrance can help as well so people think they are coming into an interesting area. Those solar speed signs work too. :)

[H.E.Pennypacker]

Those solar speed signs are like Babu Bhatt wagging his finger at your calling you a "Bad man"

http://i.imgur.com/P3kRr.gif

I feel guilty and ashamed when it lights up as you're driving by, forces me to slow down :haha:

[Full Mountain]

I appreciate the thoughts. It all makes sense to me, and I would hate to have things like speed bumps being introduced if there are better ways of going about it. Thanks!

I'm certainly not an expert on these things, these are things that I have noticed make me slow down when I'm driving. Hopefully they help.

[Full Mountain]

Yes. Trees, benches and anything that increases the perception of speed (things flying by) can be a good thing. Also, having more to look at has been a proven way of reducing speed. Some kind of gateway or entrance can help as well so people think they are coming into an interesting area. Those solar speed signs work too. :)

Those solar speed signs are like Babu Bhatt wagging his finger at your calling you a "Bad man"

http://i.imgur.com/P3kRr.gif

I feel guilty and ashamed when it lights up as you're driving by, forces me to slow down :haha:

My issue with the solar signs is people slow for them and the resume the same speed they were travelling shortly after.

[5seconds]

Yes. Trees, benches and anything that increases the perception of speed (things flying by) can be a good thing. Also, having more to look at has been a proven way of reducing speed. Some kind of gateway or entrance can help as well so people think they are coming into an interesting area. Those solar speed signs work too. :)

I appreciate the ideas. The Province is going to be rebuilding portions of 37th street as part of the ring road work, so I wonder if there is an opportunity to get some things implemented at the same time. Then again, the new access to the community will have a new roundabout near the middle of the road, so that might begin to act as a natural mitigation measure.

[Mazrim]

I can't figure out how to link locations in the new Google Maps, but my favorite example of traffic calming is in Kelowna. Search "Abbott Street and Park Avenue".

Abbott used to look like Park Avenue does, wide two lane road with parking on both sides, and it had full access to Highway 97 right by the Okanagan Lake Bridge, so it was heavily used and in the summer it would back up past Lake Avenue in the afternoon.

The City completely redid the road. They added a bike and pedestrian path on one side with boulevards between them both, narrowed the road significantly, and created limited on-street parking with permit only. They also made the Highway 97 access a right-in/right-out, removing all the gridlock from the road. I don't remember what the speed limit is there but it doesn't really matter because you will probably never get over 40km/h or so.

Obviously if the street is still to be considered a commuter route you might not be able to change things to this extent, but Abbott is now a beautiful street to go down as a pedestrian or biker, and I'd love to see it done to more streets.

[DizzyEdge]

I can't figure out how to link locations in the new Google Maps, but my favorite example of traffic calming is in Kelowna. Search "Abbott Street and Park Avenue".

Abbott used to look like Park Avenue does, wide two lane road with parking on both sides, and it had full access to Highway 97 right by the Okanagan Lake Bridge, so it was heavily used and in the summer it would back up past Lake Avenue in the afternoon.

The City completely redid the road. They added a bike and pedestrian path on one side with boulevards between them both, narrowed the road significantly, and created limited on-street parking with permit only. They also made the Highway 97 access a right-in/right-out, removing all the gridlock from the road. I don't remember what the speed limit is there but it doesn't really matter because you will probably never get over 40km/h or so.

Obviously if the street is still to be considered a commuter route you might not be able to change things to this extent, but Abbott is now a beautiful street to go down as a pedestrian or biker, and I'd love to see it done to more streets.

You can actually just copy the URL showing at the top of the browser, it seems to change as you navigate through the map.

[5seconds]

I can't figure out how to link locations in the new Google Maps, but my favorite example of traffic calming is in Kelowna. Search "Abbott Street and Park Avenue".

Abbott used to look like Park Avenue does, wide two lane road with parking on both sides, and it had full access to Highway 97 right by the Okanagan Lake Bridge, so it was heavily used and in the summer it would back up past Lake Avenue in the afternoon.

The City completely redid the road. They added a bike and pedestrian path on one side with boulevards between them both, narrowed the road significantly, and created limited on-street parking with permit only. They also made the Highway 97 access a right-in/right-out, removing all the gridlock from the road. I don't remember what the speed limit is there but it doesn't really matter because you will probably never get over 40km/h or so.

Obviously if the street is still to be considered a commuter route you might not be able to change things to this extent, but Abbott is now a beautiful street to go down as a pedestrian or biker, and I'd love to see it done to more streets.

That's a pretty nice road, especially compared to the other one. I am not sure the change could be that extreme, but pushing out the curbs near the intersections, planting trees along the ROW and even some kind of entrance like KW suggested would be interesting. I appreciate the example!

EDIT: I looked again northbound from that intersection, and I think it could totally work.

[Mazrim]

You can actually just copy the URL showing at the top of the browser, it seems to change as you navigate through the map.

Oh hey, that's totally it. I suppose that's a more natural place to copy from, but it's certainly not where I would have looked after all these years of clicking the "link" button.

[mersar]

Oh hey, that's totally it. I suppose that's a more natural place to copy from, but it's certainly not where I would have looked after all these years of clicking the "link" button.

Yep. They changed it to that in the recent mega-update to Google Maps.

[5seconds]

Yep. They changed it to that in the recent mega-update to Google Maps.

Is there a way to do measurements in the new maps? I use to use the old measure tool all the time, and I can still go back to the old maps when I need to, but is it available in the new version?

[J-D]

I've always wondered... when a road gets built/extended onto private property (i.e. Deerfoot Meadows), does the developer foot the bill for this or the City?

Who controls the traffic light timing in these cases? It really seems to me that some of the traffic lights in Deerfoot Meadows (e.g. 11 St SB to Southland/Deerfoot) are timed to make you stop at every set of lights regardless of direction and make you more likely to pull into more stores.

[5seconds]

With all the talk about the Glenmore-Crowchild interchange, I thought I would post the current working plans for when the City widens Glenmore. I believe this is going to take place in the next 2 years.

Westbound will go to 3 lanes, while Eastbound will be three lanes, reducing to two as one becomes the off-ramp at Crowchild. The road is being moved slightly north within the corridor.

Not a lot of room under the temporary 37th street interchange, so I assume the third westbound lane would become the 37th street exit lane until the Province builds the permanent 37th interchange and Glenmore upgrades west of 37th? Not sure.

http://calgaryringroad.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/glenmore_2014.jpg

[You Need A Thneed]

Between that, the SWRR, and the Bowfort Road 16th interchange, in another year or two, I'm worried that I may not have a route to work that's not under construction.

[DizzyEdge]

In some cities new freeways are tolled. Can anyone tell me why that is? What I mean by that is what would be specific about those freeways that they would be tolled but others aren't. Is it a case of a P3 construction? Should some Calgary freeways be tolled such as the ring road?

[Boris2k7]

In some cities new freeways are tolled. Can anyone tell me why that is? What I mean by that is what would be specific about those freeways that they would be tolled but others aren't. Is it a case of a P3 construction? Should some Calgary freeways be tolled such as the ring road?

Well, for example, Beltway 8 (the second ring road around Houston) in Harris County,TX was constructed over a span of thirty years (it was planned over sixty years ago) with the help of its tolls. They literally could not come up with the cash without them. Highway 99 (Houston's third ring road) started construction twenty years ago and will likely be using tollways as well in order to speed up each segment's construction.

[MichaelS]

In some cities new freeways are tolled. Can anyone tell me why that is? What I mean by that is what would be specific about those freeways that they would be tolled but others aren't. Is it a case of a P3 construction? Should some Calgary freeways be tolled such as the ring road?

In Brisbane Australia, a lot of their major road projects are sold as investments. You could purchase a share in the project, and get a share of the revenue/profits generated from the tolls. Basically a P3 model to finance some multi-billion dollar road tunnels.

[DizzyEdge]

This is parking related, but I wonder if parking restrictions were removed for 9th ave between 11th and 8th street, and 4th ave between Riverfront and 1st st SE, and MacLeod between 10th ave and 9th ave how much that would wreck the aims of the existing parking restrictions. It would be parkades close to the edges of downtown only, and the rules could be that the parkades have to have retail/office. It would take away the suburban sore point of the parking restrictions, and would sort of allow parking in the same sorts of places the CPA would build it. Of course at somepoint the additional cars might create edge of downtown and beyond gridlock, but I think it's a more convincing argument to commuters to say "we're not going to demolish towers to widen roads so your commute is faster" than "we're going to artificially restrict parking so you can't drive downtown". Or maybe there's really no reason to change the existing rules, I just always worry about a suburban minded mayor (ala Rob Ford) getting into power on a wave of suburban discontent.

[Full Mountain]

This is parking related, but I wonder if parking restrictions were removed for 9th ave between 11th and 8th street, and 4th ave between Riverfront and 1st st SE, and MacLeod between 10th ave and 9th ave how much that would wreck the aims of the existing parking restrictions. It would be parkades close to the edges of downtown only, and the rules could be that the parkades have to have retail/office. It would take away the suburban sore point of the parking restrictions, and would sort of allow parking in the same sorts of places the CPA would build it. Of course at somepoint the additional cars might create edge of downtown and beyond gridlock, but I think it's a more convincing argument to commuters to say "we're not going to demolish towers to widen roads so your commute is faster" than "we're going to artificially restrict parking so you can't drive downtown". Or maybe there's really no reason to change the existing rules, I just always worry about a suburban minded mayor (ala Rob Ford) getting into power on a wave of suburban discontent.

Then you have to add road capacity to the edge of downtown, not sure you're helping anything with that...

[srperrycgy]

In some cities new freeways are tolled. Can anyone tell me why that is? What I mean by that is what would be specific about those freeways that they would be tolled but others aren't. Is it a case of a P3 construction? Should some Calgary freeways be tolled such as the ring road?

The SW section of the Ring Road should have a toll. But, having tolls in Alberta is like having a sales tax; it's a political "third-rail".

I was in the Lower Mainland last week and I happily paid the toll for the new Port Mann Bridge.

[lubicon]

Between that, the SWRR, and the Bowfort Road 16th interchange, in another year or two, I'm worried that I may not have a route to work that's not under construction.

Haha, welcome to my world. It's been that way for me since I moved here in 1997. That's 17 years on constant road construction on my commuting routes. And I am not exaggerating.

[milomilo]

In some cities new freeways are tolled. Can anyone tell me why that is? What I mean by that is what would be specific about those freeways that they would be tolled but others aren't. Is it a case of a P3 construction? Should some Calgary freeways be tolled such as the ring road?

I visited Melbourne* a few weeks back, another Australian city with tolled freeways. These roads were truly big pieces of infrastructure though with multiple inner city tunnels and huge bridges so it didn't seem like too much of a hardship to pay a toll, although the prices did seem very steep.

I don't think you could justify tolling any of the roads in Calgary, but if it were to happen I'd prefer it was more similar to the French system where Alberta would build a high quality network of freeways and toll all of them.


*On a side note - Melbourne has utterly incredible infrastructure - extensive freeways, high frequency extensive commuter rail and a huge tram system. Really makes Calgary look small time :(. I'd highly advise any transit geek to visit!

[Jimby]

I was in the Lower Mainland last week and I happily paid the toll for the new Port Mann Bridge.

How did you pay the toll for the Port Mann? I have never paid and I don't even know how to pay it.

[srperrycgy]

How did you pay the toll for the Port Mann? I have never paid and I don't even know how to pay it.

You can go online http://www.treo.ca with your plate # and pay there. If you pay within 7 days, you save the licence plate processing fee. I registered with TReO and received the sticker and placed it on my windshield as directed. Its not in my field of vision as its behind the mirror. I have it linked to my MC and they will bill monthly. Only one of my trips has shown up on the website. I won't use it a lot, but its there. I'm reading on other forums that out-of-province tolls might never get paid as TReO has no agreements with other provinces to provide car information like ICBC does in BC. Might have never needed to pay the toll anyway. :shrug:

[Jimby]

You can go online http://www.treo.ca with your plate # and pay there. If you pay within 7 days, you save the licence plate processing fee. I registered with TReO and received the sticker and placed it on my windshield as directed. Its not in my field of vision as its behind the mirror. I have it linked to my MC and they will bill monthly. Only one of my trips has shown up on the website. I won't use it a lot, but its there. I'm reading on other forums that out-of-province tolls might never get paid as TReO has no agreements with other provinces to provide car information like ICBC does in BC. Might have never needed to pay the toll anyway. :shrug:

Thanks for the info. I have never received a bill in the mail so I not going to offer to pay. I last drove over the bridge on Wednesday so I will see if I get any mail from B.C. I always thought the TCH was supposed to be toll free across Canada.

[freeweed]

Haha, welcome to my world. It's been that way for me since I moved here in 1997. That's 17 years on constant road construction on my commuting routes. And I am not exaggerating.

I was just commenting on this earlier today. I think we might actually see Crowchild become construction-free by this fall. I'm sure there's some other piece of remediation work that will have to happen, because near as I can tell it's a city bylaw that Crowchild NW is not allowed to be 80 for its entire freeflow length.

[Chadillaccc]

So they've been working on Crowchild for 17 years straight and they still don't have it right yet? Holy hell. Worst expressway in the country probably.

[Jimby]

So they've been working on Crowchild for 17 years straight and they still don't have it right yet? Holy hell. Worst expressway in the country probably.

It may well be the worst but it is a million times better than when it used to be traffic lights all the way.

[Innersoul1]

You can go online http://www.treo.ca with your plate # and pay there. If you pay within 7 days, you save the licence plate processing fee. I registered with TReO and received the sticker and placed it on my windshield as directed. Its not in my field of vision as its behind the mirror. I have it linked to my MC and they will bill monthly. Only one of my trips has shown up on the website. I won't use it a lot, but its there. I'm reading on other forums that out-of-province tolls might never get paid as TReO has no agreements with other provinces to provide car information like ICBC does in BC. Might have never needed to pay the toll anyway. :shrug:

I have gone over the bridge a few times coming in and out of Vancouver and have never received a bill. This is the same for the toll bridge in Seattle. I don't even thing they bother sending the bills to out of province and out of country vehicles.

[craner]

It may well be the worst but it is a million times better than when it used to be traffic lights all the way.
You can say that again.:tup:
Now just have to fix that last stretch (24thNW - 17th SW) to get rid of the lights and improve the river crossing CF.
:cheers:

[lubicon]

I was just commenting on this earlier today. I think we might actually see Crowchild become construction-free by this fall. I'm sure there's some other piece of remediation work that will have to happen, because near as I can tell it's a city bylaw that Crowchild NW is not allowed to be 80 for its entire freeflow length.

I'm beginning to think the same thing. And the possible candidates are remediating the rough spots under Shaganappi. Failing that we have the interchange at Flanders and the one at Glenmore to look forward to as they rebuild them. Whenever that may be.

So they've been working on Crowchild for 17 years straight and they still don't have it right yet? Holy hell. Worst expressway in the country probably.

I wasn't meaning Crowchild has been under constant construction, many of my other routes to or from work have been (and continue to be) under construction. It just never seems to end. However now that I think about it, it is quite possible that Crowchild has been under constant construction of some type for the entire 17 year period. Actually the more I think about it the more I think that is the case. And while the road is much improved, it is hard to fathom that it has taken the City 17 years to do it.

[milomilo]

If Crowchild is completely fixed though, we could no longer hold the claim to the worst interchange movement on the entire planet (Bow Trail eastbound to Memorial eastbound)! :runaway:

[Mazrim]

Considering the average person will not be driving all the way from Glenmore to Stoney Trail on a regular basis, I assume most people do not feel like it's been under construction constantly for 17 years. Once they finished the stretch from Charleswood to 53rd Street it was all but done for what I used!

[mersar]

So they've been working on Crowchild for 17 years straight and they still don't have it right yet? Holy hell. Worst expressway in the country probably.

Yep.

It may be construction free by this fall, just in time for the new Flanders interchange to start up probably next year or one after. So the NW will be construction free but the SW part will be a mess for a while.

[H.E.Pennypacker]

You can say that again.:tup:
Now just have to fix that last stretch (24thNW - 17th SW) to get rid of the lights and improve the river crossing CF.
:cheers:

Is there any actual plan (old or new) to improve this stretch of Crowchild?? It's such a damn crawl in peak hours - should be up there amongst existing infrastructure that needs to be fixed

[5seconds]

Is there any actual plan (old or new) to improve this stretch of Crowchild?? It's such a damn crawl in peak hours - should be up there amongst existing infrastructure that needs to be fixed

There was one (or several) proposed in the last year or so. There was quite the public backlash against the plans, the price and the level of consultation with community so the City sent it back for review. I am not sure if they are still on the City's website.

The plans will be revised, but the City is developing a consultation policy regarding Transportation Corridor Studies that is being done first.

[H.E.Pennypacker]

There was one (or several) proposed in the last year or so. There was quite the public backlash against the plans, the price and the level of consultation with community so the City sent it back for review. I am not sure if they are still on the City's website.

The plans will be revised, but the City is developing a consultation policy regarding Transportation Corridor Studies that is being done first.

Thanks! I vaguely recall hearing something about that (this was before the days that I spent on this forum)

I hope they are able to fix that section of Crowchild ... Not only is it jammed packed, it's full of awkward/tight routes (seriously trying to get to NB Crowchild via EB Bow Trail is one of the weirdest connections of major roads I've seen)

[Trans Canada]

This is the City's page for that corridor: http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation/TP/Pages/Projects/Current-Planning-Projects/Crowchild-Trail-Corridor-Study.aspx

At the moment there is nothing concrete on the horizon for upgrading that stretch. I saw one of the proposals and significant community impact is unavoidable, including demolishing houses along the entire corridor (IIRC).

[mersar]

Proposed Flanders Avenue redesign options. There is also a survey linked from the city's page for gathering input as to which they go with.

k3o4pwGF6xc
http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation/TP/PublishingImages/crowchild-flanders-options-02.jpg
Source:calgary.ca/flanders (http://calgary.ca/flanders)

[milomilo]

I heartily endorse any proposal that uses roundabouts instead of traffic lights!

[H.E.Pennypacker]

The roundabouts look great .. Will improve traffic flow nicely I think

With as much density planned in the Currie Barracks redevelopment I feel like 3 stoplights at that interchange so close together would cause a pretty good backlog in peak hours trying to get on to Crowchild

[MalcolmTucker]

Is the BRT using the 51st Ave Interchange? Or both?

[fusili]

Is the BRT using the 51st Ave Interchange? Or both?

Two different departments at the City. Talking to each other is forbidden. BRT alignment not considered. Consultation with transit on this would have resulted in several firings. Plus loss of catering privileges for group meetings.

[freeweed]

I wasn't meaning Crowchild has been under constant construction, many of my other routes to or from work have been (and continue to be) under construction. It just never seems to end. However now that I think about it, it is quite possible that Crowchild has been under constant construction of some type for the entire 17 year period. Actually the more I think about it the more I think that is the case. And while the road is much improved, it is hard to fathom that it has taken the City 17 years to do it.

Man, you've just succumbed to Stockholm Syndrome. :haha: We've talked about this years ago, and at that time you were able to piece together a pretty continuous record of non-stop Crowchild construction.

I know that in my personal experience, it's been under construction since 2003, which gives us 11 years. And from memory and your comments, it goes further back from that by at least several years - Shag and 53rd and whatnot too years to construct.

All in all, for a road that's always under construction I have to admit that the NW leg still generally rocks (until you hit the lights anyway). And it's mostly tied into the LRT extensions, which followed the growth of the city overall. It's just.. indicative of how this city can't ever do a project all at once anymore. It's the same planning that has us finally seeing 4 car stations what, 8 years after they were first planned? Oh, if only we were one of the wealthiest jurisdictions in North America, just imagine what kind of infrastructure we could have....

[lubicon]

Man, you've just succumbed to Stockholm Syndrome. :haha: We've talked about this years ago, and at that time you were able to piece together a pretty continuous record of non-stop Crowchild construction.

I know that in my personal experience, it's been under construction since 2003, which gives us 11 years. And from memory and your comments, it goes further back from that by at least several years - Shag and 53rd and whatnot too years to construct.

All in all, for a road that's always under construction I have to admit that the NW leg still generally rocks (until you hit the lights anyway). And it's mostly tied into the LRT extensions, which followed the growth of the city overall. It's just.. indicative of how this city can't ever do a project all at once anymore. It's the same planning that has us finally seeing 4 car stations what, 8 years after they were first planned? Oh, if only we were one of the wealthiest jurisdictions in North America, just imagine what kind of infrastructure we could have....

Agreed, it totally rocks and yes, the construction has followed the growth of the City and since you and I live on the far NW edge, we don't ever see an end to it since the entire road is 'inner' city for us, there is practically nothing after our communities - except for the new lights that they promptly installed at 12 Mile Coulee Road, just so the City has something to do in 15 more years and they have run out of interchanges to build elsewhere.:tup:

[Calgarian]

Manning institute proposing toll lanes on Calgary Arteries. I'm surprised this is coming from them as it's basically a user tax and we all know how conservatives are supposed to feel about "taxes" lol. The comments are hilarious, apparently Nenshi is in league with the Manning Foundation now haha!

Anyway I think it's a good idea during peak times (7-9Am and 4-6PM) as this will add incentive to using transit or car pooling.
http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/calgary/Calgary+thinktank+recommends+toll+lanes+raise+revenue/9811881/story.html

[Fuzz]

:previous:

From the article:

Bob Brunnen from the Manning Centre for Democratic Education says there are three major thoroughfares in Calgary that could easily be changed to include toll lanes as part of a pilot project.

Brunnen says the length of a daily commute would be reduced by 29 per cent for those who decide to opt into the plan.

He says the cost to a driver would be roughly $5 per day.

Brunnen says he expects there would be initial opposition to the idea, but as the benefits begin to become apparent, that would likely change.

It sounds more like he wants to setup exclusive "fast lanes" for those who can afford it. The lanes would have fewer users, meaning more people in the normal lanes, and slower traffic overall.

Looking at it this way, it doesn't sound so shocking an idea to come out of the Manning Centre. A privileged high speed empty road for those who can afford it while the plebs suffer more for their comfort.

[Bigtime]

Ha! Daily commute for those willing to pay reduced by 29%, and just what percentage increase would the serfs suffer for this?

This is the bike lane debate x90001 (it's over 9000!). This isn't a toll road option, that would be making the entire road toll.

Why not institute HOV lanes instead?

[Calgarian]

I think it would have the same effect as an HOV lane though. I think it would also encourage car pooling for both users and non users.

[fusili]

This sounds more like a HOV toll lane, that a full blown toll road. IMO, not a terrible idea as long a alternatives exist. Toll roads are terribly unpopular when proposed, and terribly popular after they are implemented.

[Fuzz]

I didn't see any suggestion by them to make it HOV.

[DizzyEdge]

It would be funny if people embrace HOV lanes because of the threat of toll lanes put forth by the Manning foundation.

[H.E.Pennypacker]

News on the possibility of toll roads has gone over well with the public this morning

[Full Mountain]

News on the possibility of toll roads has gone over well with the public this morning

So everyone seems to think this is a straight toll lane (which is what the media is saying) when what is being proposed is actually a High Occupancy Toll (HOT) lane, one where HOV's travel for free, but SOV's have to pay a fee. [Manning Report (pdf) (http://www.manningfoundation.org/Docs/road-pricing.pdf)]

[nick.flood]

delete

[Calgarian]

So everyone seems to think this is a straight toll lane (which is what the media is saying) when what is being proposed is actually a High Occupancy Toll (HOT) lane, one where HOV's travel for free, but SOV's have to pay a fee. [Manning Report (pdf) (http://www.manningfoundation.org/Docs/road-pricing.pdf)]

Gotta love how bad the media is getting in this city, everyone just puts their own spin on things instead of reporting accurately...:rolleyes:

[Bigtime]

Who's manning the tolls determining occupancy class?

I'd assume there would be no actual manned tolls, but instead utilizing RFD cards on the vehicles and readers above the road. Now how would they determine that a vehicle in the HOT lane is operating as an HOV one day and not single occupant the next and charge accordingly?

[Fuzz]

I'm not sure how you could implement this as a single lane on Crowchild, given the way lanes drop off and change constantly.

[Bigtime]

I'm not sure how you could implement this as a single lane on Crowchild, given the way lanes drop off and change constantly.

Past 24th it shouldn't be a problem, as the left hand lane remains the same all the way until the current construction by the Tuscany LRT station. Obviously only speaking to the section northbound and southbound from Tuscany to 24th.

[Full Mountain]

Who's manning the tolls determining occupancy class?

I'd assume there would be no actual manned tolls, but instead utilizing RFD cards on the vehicles and readers above the road. Now how would they determine that a vehicle in the HOT lane is operating as an HOV one day and not single occupant the next and charge accordingly?

Would be a bit of technical challenge, but should be able to be overcome with cameras (thermal and normal) and machine intelligence. Not sure of the exact solution though, this paper from Georgia Tech [link (pdf) (http://transportation.ce.gatech.edu/sites/default/files/files/enforcement_strategies_for_high-occupancy_toll_lanes.pdf)] covers a few solutions that may work.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'd assume there would be no actual manned tolls, but instead utilizing RFD cards on the vehicles and readers above the road. Now how would they determine that a vehicle in the HOT lane is operating as an HOV one day and not single occupant the next and charge accordingly?
Cameras, and something like mechanical turk.

[nick.flood]

delete

[Full Mountain]

Gotta love how bad the media is getting in this city, everyone just puts their own spin on things instead of reporting accurately...:rolleyes:

Sad the whole enterprise is focused purely on selling rather than objective journalism, the sad thing is even if you pay for a subscription you still get ads. IMO a site with ads has some bias and is more likely to make a mountain out of molehill.

[Full Mountain]

I don't see anything in their report to indicate that they've figured that out. If they think they're going to utilize some type of honour system, all the best with that.

Yeah, they left the solutioning to the city...Honour system?! :haha:

A straight toll lane would be much easier to implement than an HOT.

[YYCguys]

A toll on a substandard road is not cool! And Calgary is full of them! I think the only road that MIGHT be toll worthy at this point is Stoney Trail. Every other road has major problems--Glenmore, Crowchild, Deerfoot-- that should be fixed before a toll is introduced on them.

[MasterG]

A toll on a substandard road is not cool! And Calgary is full of them! I think the only road that MIGHT be toll worthy at this point is Stoney Trail. Every other road has major problems--Glenmore, Crowchild, Deerfoot-- that should be fixed before a toll is introduced on them.

Isn't the whole idea to use the toll to fund the fixes to the roads?

[Fuzz]

Past 24th it shouldn't be a problem, as the left hand lane remains the same all the way until the current construction by the Tuscany LRT station. Obviously only speaking to the section northbound and southbound from Tuscany to 24th.
I never drive that section during rush hour, but my understanding is its pretty free flowing. Would a toll lane be any benefit for the north? I'd think you would end up with one mostly empty toll lane and 2 busier other lanes. Not busy enough to motivate people to pay though. Or am I wrong?

[H.E.Pennypacker]

Isn't the whole idea to use the toll to fund the fixes to the roads?

Such a simple concept that I'm not seeing many people understand on my Facebook feed