Calgary Roads

[ken0042]

Funny that Global's image today captured the issues with Calgary drivers in a nutshell.

http://vipmedia.globalnews.ca/2013/08/traffic-jam-merge.jpg?w=720&h=452&crop=1

I'm not sure what road that is, but the weave area has to be more than 20 metres. They two cars doing the weave merge are only 2 car lengths from there the weave starts, but they are both almost into the lanes they will eventually need. I see this every day when EB Glenmore has Crowchild traffic coming on, and 14th street traffic exiting. That weave is over a kilometre; but most cars do it in under 25 metres.

Image obtained from http://globalnews.ca/news/980487/southeast-commuters-warned-to-brace-for-delays/

[Mazrim]

Since it's from Getty Images, it's probably a stock image. Other signs that's it not Calgary: Concrete instead of Asphalt road, reflectors on the lane markings.

[msmariner]

Plus the road markings are not paint or epoxy (the two applications C of C uses in Calgary).. They most likely are a MMA product. Come on Global, at least make the effort to get a pic of Calgary.:shrug:

[MasterG]

Plus the road markings are not paint or epoxy (the two applications C of C uses in Calgary).. They most likely are a MMA product. Come on Global, at least make the effort to get a pic of Calgary.:shrug:

Yeah their aren't enough decked-out pick-ups and BMWs either. Calgary has the nicest average car in North America by a wide margin. Everything is new and shiny.

[davee930]

Yeah their aren't enough decked-out pick-ups and BMWs either. Calgary has the nicest average car in North America by a wide margin. Everything is new and shiny.

Plus the lack of daytime running lights

[Calgarian]

Ha ha. I love these. See them all the time, two opposing lanes of traffic, both backed up because people want to turn left.

Part of the reason I don't drive is because it makes me want to kill all the people. People who drive dangerously. People who drive like 4 year old children and always go 10-15km below the speed limit. People who don't signal. People who don't know they're signalling. Idiots who can't merge. Idiots who don't let people merge. People who run reds. People who honk at other cars waiting for pedestrians to cross. Jerks on cell phones. People who stop for jaywalkers. People who speed up to threaten jaywalkers. People who after sitting at a light for 30 minutes waiting to get through, get to the front of the queue and accelerate at the slowest rate possible when the light turns green. People who follow too close. People who make ridiculous maneuvers that endanger everyone on the road to save a few seconds. Idiots who go through an intersection when there isn't enough space ahead and end up blocking the entire intersection for an entire light cycle.

If I drove everyday of my life, I would eventually be in jail, the hospital or the psych ward.

When I walk, nothing anybody does really upsets me. Sometimes people walk slower than me, but that is not really frustrating.

You sound a lot like me lol, my stress level is much much lower walking than driving. Though I do get really annoyed while walking at times and that's usually because some dumbass motorist is blocking my way and has no clue I'm even there. My biggest pet peeve has to be trying to cross in a crosswalk and some idiot trying to turn right is watching traffic from the left while turning right and is completely oblivious to all the people they are about to run over, I've actually booted peoples cars for this and man do they jump lol.

[fusili]

You sound a lot like me lol, my stress level is much much lower walking than driving. Though I do get really annoyed while walking at times and that's usually because some dumbass motorist is blocking my way and has no clue I'm even there. My biggest pet peeve has to be trying to cross in a crosswalk and some idiot trying to turn right is watching traffic from the left while turning right and is completely oblivious to all the people they are about to run over, I've actually booted peoples cars for this and man do they jump lol.

I almost got run over the other day walking in Lower Mount Royal. I was crossing, some lady was driving and stopped at the stop sign where I was crossing. I was trying to make eye contact, but she just kept driving and didn't even see me. I was about two steps away from being hit. Just not paying attention at all. Good thing I was.

[Dmajackson]

I almost got run over the other day walking in Lower Mount Royal. I was crossing, some lady was driving and stopped at the stop sign where I was crossing. I was trying to make eye contact, but she just kept driving and didn't even see me. I was about two steps away from being hit. Just not paying attention at all. Good thing I was.

Still better than driving. Two hours ago I was turning onto 5 ST from 15 AVE (Beltline) and there was a oversized pick-up truck barrelling down the road heading the wrong way. He made it to 13 AVE before he saw oncoming headlights and turned off the street.

Sad thing is this didn't even make me flinch. Moronic things like this are so common place the first thing I thought was "only in Calgary"!

I actually accepted my "firing" at my driving job last week because driving in this town is not safe even on good days.

[craner]

16th Ave/19th St. NE functional planning options presented to stakeholders. Note that the plans consider 16th and Deerfoot, 19th and Barlow all at the same time.
Link to pdf:
http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation/TP/Documents/studies/16ave/16Ave-phase2-stakeholder-input.pdf

You'll note that the city is considering a diverging diamond interchange for Deerfoot in several options. I'd say it isn't going to work well here due to the extra bridges required over the railroad tracks and the limited weave distance to get from from Deerfoot SB to 19th St SB. Might as well just build a third level bridge for 16th Ave across Deerfoot like option D. Personally, I'd like to see option A w. a 3rd level on Deerfoot like option D.

Unfortunately, the drawings are so crappy I can't really evaluate the direction ramp options for Deerfoot (H and J), although done right I'd consider those too.

Open house on Dec 4th at Vista Heights School (2411 Vermillion St. N.E.) from 5 to 8 p.m. I will be there as this is my hood and I'm most impacted by whatever they decide to do with this area.

Definitely going to try to make the open house on the 4th. Glad they are at least thinking about doing something in this area. The diverging diamond is a stupid idea IMO and would be a disaster. As long as the lights get removed on 16th and all the movements to & from Deerfoot I'll be satisfied.
I agree with most of the comments on the last page of the link.
In my fantasy world I still envision a signature bridge design for 16th high above the Deerfoot valley.

Now if we could just do something with the rest of 16th. :(

[DizzyEdge]

Can someone shed light on whether there was a reasonable reason to 'deadend' some of our major roads? For example Centre at Beddington Trail (and for that matter, why does Centre jog West and take over 4th St's ROW?)

Same with 14th Street at Hidden Valley Dr.

[YYCguys]

Or like how the southern leg of Sarcee Trail NW ends at 34 Ave NW in Bowness and picks up again at Crowchild Trail NW. That was my biggest annoyance, when in pre-google map/GPS days, when I was new to Calgary and lived in the SW and planned to use Sarcee Trail all the way to the Hamptons to visit a friend but was rudely introduced to Calgary's fascination with deadending!

[DizzyEdge]

I understand why they didn't proceed with the "plow through the middle of Bowness with a freeway", but it seems like there could have been alternative ways to do it. What about an elevated freeway over top the rail line?

Actually it seems it could have been done just purchasing 12 properties:

http://i.imgur.com/D0dSfMf.jpg

[Acey]

^ Ehh you'd need a wider ROW than that.

[DizzyEdge]

Of course whoever lives here would be pretty unhappy

https://maps.google.ca/?ll=51.089334,-114.18565&spn=0.001477,0.003484&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=51.08938,-114.185753&panoid=qBdLZB7fYSmo5HvlDDHz3Q&cbp=12,37.04,,0,-0.9

[DizzyEdge]

^ Ehh you'd need a wider ROW than that.

I was using the "park" adjacent to the river thinking it was the fully purchased ROW, you're right it would likely need to be wider.

[dmuzika]

I was using the "park" adjacent to the river thinking it was the fully purchased ROW, you're right it would likely need to be wider.

With SW Stoney Trail being close by, that project is dead. The residents in Bowness would be against it.

I wonder if the Shaganappi Trail extension through Edworthy Park linking with Sarcee Trail near Bow Trail would ever get reconsidered?

[dmuzika]

I noticed that both Rocky View County and the Town of Chestermere refer to an eastern Peigan Trail extension tying into Twp Rd 240 . Does anyone know how far east that would go and what kind of road would it be? Would Peigan Trail east of Stoney Trail be a expressway/freeway that potentially would link directly with the Trans Canada Highway or be downgraded to an arterial road? It seems to be remnant of the old 50 Avenue Freeway study that was at the Central Library.

[mersar]

I noticed that both Rocky View County and the Town of Chestermere refer to an eastern Peigan Trail extension tying into Twp Rd 240 . Does anyone know how far east that would go and what kind of road would it be? Would Peigan Trail east of Stoney Trail be a expressway/freeway that potentially would link directly with the Trans Canada Highway or be downgraded to an arterial road? It seems to be remnant of the old 50 Avenue Freeway study that was at the Central Library.

The Calgary/Rockyview IMDP makes reference that the road will extend all the way to Chestermere. There was $1.5M in the 2013 Rocky View County budget for the road. My guess is probably just a 2 lane road for now, similar in scale to 114th Ave SE/TWP232.

[You Need A Thneed]

Peigan Trail is under construction from 84th to 100th Street.

I don't know why it's being built now, as Frontier Road, 200ish metres south, already goes between those two roads, and is nowhere near busy.

[MasterG]

I wonder if the Shaganappi Trail extension through Edworthy Park linking with Sarcee Trail near Bow Trail would ever get reconsidered?

Not likely. The age of paving over parks for freeways is over. Not a chance the communities affected would support this.

[para transit fellow]

Peigan Trail is under construction from 84th to 100th Street.

I don't know why it's being built now, as Frontier Road, 200ish metres south, already goes between those two roads, and is nowhere near busy.

Peigan trail planned to ultimately extend east of rainbow/ range road 283.

[5seconds]

In the mid- to late-1970s, the issue of crossing the Bow river on the west side was getting attention, and the two main options were either Sarcee Trail through Bowness, or Shaganappi Trail through Edworthy Park.

The Northwest Roads study was undertaken to see which would be the best to build, assuming that one or both would be needed. In the end, the study concluded that the building of Stoney Trail west of Bowness and the building of the LRT down Crowchild would be enough to satisfy river crossing and downtown movements for a long while, until the NW reached a certain population threshold. The study did not rule out the other crossings, and when the conclusions were adopted by Council, it was specifically stated that the other two crossings would continue to form a part of the long term plans for the area.

(The population level referenced was 168,000 people living in the NW, west of Nose Hill, which I assume has long been reached)

It's interesting to note that the crossing at Shaganappi was proposed as early as 1954, and was discussed directly with George Edworthy when he still owned the area as a ranch. In fact, it was Mr. Edworthy who suggested the name 'Shaganappi' for the bridge. While the bridge wasn't built, the name was given to the road north of the river in preparation for that crossing. This is why the area of Shaganappi is south of the Bow (built on and near the old Edworthy Shaganappi ranch), while Shaganappi Trail is to the North.

The western-most part of the current Edworthy park was purchased specifically as a road corridor.

[freeweed]

With the SWRR in theory happening, we'll never see another Bow crossing in that area. There simply will never be a need to, unless something radically changes in the built form of Calgary. Like the entire reserve being sold to the city and massive high density development going in, which starts to choke out the one route in the area.

[H.E.Pennypacker]

^ Agree... IMO any money considered to be spent on another river crossing would be better served on finally doing a major upgrade to Crowchild bridge over the water ... A substantial improvement to that bridge to improve traffic flow would negate the need to build another bridge that would probably have less utility anyway

Once the SWRR gets going it would be nice to see the City shift their focus on upgrading existing interchanges/roads that are already a mess - i.e. Crowchild (as I just mentioned); Deerfoot at Glenmore, McKnight, and 32nd; etc ... We've already seen the plans for Deerfoot and 16th Ave (and 19th St NE) so I'm hoping this is a trend that we'll start seeing

[craner]

^speaking of 16th Ave & Deerfoot/19th/Barlow did anyone make it to the open house last night and can share some info?

^^^5seconds, Thanks for the history lesson regarding Shaganappi & Edworthy, I had no idea, very interesting.

[Ferreth]

^speaking of 16th Ave & Deerfoot/19th/Barlow did anyone make it to the open house last night and can share some info?

^^^5seconds, Thanks for the history lesson regarding Shaganappi & Edworthy, I had no idea, very interesting.

I couldn't make it - I was recruited as emergency airport transport.

After some digging (links broken in most of what the city sent me) I found the correct link (http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation/TP/Pages/Planning/Transportation-Planning-Studies/16-Avenue-and-19-Street-Interchange-Study.aspx?redirect=/16ave19st)to the study page.

PDF line for those of you who just want to see the presentation boards with the options given. (http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation/TP/Documents/studies/16ave/16ave-19st-display-boards.pdf)

I'll be reading and providing feedback online - the only way to do these things when the weather is like this!

[DizzyEdge]

Now if only they could figure out how to make Glenmore/Macleod Tr free flow North-South

[5seconds]

^^^5seconds, Thanks for the history lesson regarding Shaganappi & Edworthy, I had no idea, very interesting.

Thanks! Some of this stuff comes up that I find interesting but have no real opportunity to share it. Glad you found it as interesting as I did.

Now if only they could figure out how to make Glenmore/Macleod Tr free flow North-South

I'm not sure there is much point, with a dozen other lights in both directions. I will say that the Macleod to Glenmore turning movements could use improvement. Not sure what they can do, but there are some days where the NB Macleod to WB Glenmore is a nightmare, having to deal with the initial turn and then that road to 5th street.

[Acey]

Not sure why they even waste their time drawing that 4 level thing at 16 Ave/Deerfoot. The chances of that happening are less than zero.

[davee930]

Not sure why they even waste their time drawing that 4 level thing at 16 Ave/Deerfoot. The chances of that happening are less than zero.

To show why they shouldn't do it

[Cage]

With the SWRR in theory happening, we'll never see another Bow crossing in that area. There simply will never be a need to, unless something radically changes in the built form of Calgary. Like the entire reserve being sold to the city and massive high density development going in, which starts to choke out the one route in the area.

I could see a case for another crossing in the Edworthy/Bowness area in the following circumstances.
1. Improvements to Crowchild corridor become politically or economically impracticable requiring development and potential implementation of a second best solution. The second best solution to Crowchild corridor is development of another crossing.
2. 16th Avenue traffic in the Montgomery area becomes a significant bottleneck that cannot be alleviated without a billion dollar solution. The solution could be to have Highway 1 uses Sarcee right of way to take traffic around Montgomery on the South side of the river. Highway 1 would then tie back into 16th Avenue at Edworthy park river crossing.

Again both of these option have low probability of ever seeing the light of day, but there are opportunities to use the potential of a major thoroughfare at Edworthy Park.

[Joborule]

^speaking of 16th Ave & Deerfoot/19th/Barlow did anyone make it to the open house last night and can share some info?

^^^5seconds, Thanks for the history lesson regarding Shaganappi & Edworthy, I had no idea, very interesting.

Not sure why they even waste their time drawing that 4 level thing at 16 Ave/Deerfoot. The chances of that happening are less than zero.
Although it's the best option, and apparently only $10 million more than option 2/3. Option one is alright in theory, but don't know if it's practical here due to it's unfamiliarity in this city. Plus you're still dealing with traffic lights (an additional one at that if you're just traveling E-W). Don't know if it'll improve things all that much. If they removed the lights were they intersect, and make one way go under the other, that could work better.

I wonder if it would be possible to do this. For option 2/3 with the third level for E-W traffic, or option 4 with the third and fouth for flyover ramps, on the second level (current), turn it into a traffic circle to facilitate freeflow traffic in all capacities?
I could see a case for another crossing in the Edworthy/Bowness area in the following circumstances.
1. Improvements to Crowchild corridor become politically or economically impracticable requiring development and potential implementation of a second best solution. The second best solution to Crowchild corridor is development of another crossing.
2. 16th Avenue traffic in the Montgomery area becomes a significant bottleneck that cannot be alleviated without a billion dollar solution. The solution could be to have Highway 1 uses Sarcee right of way to take traffic around Montgomery on the South side of the river. Highway 1 would then tie back into 16th Avenue at Edworthy park river crossing.

Again both of these option have low probability of ever seeing the light of day, but there are opportunities to use the potential of a major thoroughfare at Edworthy Park.
How about in regards to the HOV, transit network, and as well for emergency vehicles considering the hospital is right there? Especially for EMS response; it's not ideal to have to drive all the way down the hill, going away from the hospital, then back track, when they could save precious minutes by simply crossing the river in a minute and another minute to get to the emergency doors. If there's enough justification to build at least a 2 or 4 lane road/bridge to accommodate those purposes, then a Shaganappi crossing in the future may not be out of the question. And if it does get done, I'm sure there's a way to do it, while affecting the park at a minimum.

[milomilo]

That four level design is an utter abortion. If you're going to spend all that money at least take away the lights on 16th! The best (value) option really would be a 3rd level bridge for 16th with the existing bridges used for interchanging traffic.

Preferably that second level would be a large roundabout, but that would probably too much for your average truck driving Calgarian. Roundabouts would help solve a tonne of traffic problems in Alberta if people could learn to accept them.

[Joborule]

That four level design is an utter abortion. If you're going to spend all that money at least take away the lights on 16th! The best (value) option really would be a 3rd level bridge for 16th with the existing bridges used for interchanging traffic.

Preferably that second level would be a large roundabout, but that would probably too much for your average truck driving Calgarian. Roundabouts would help solve a tonne of traffic problems in Alberta if people could learn to accept them.

What's bad about it? I think there should be a lane before 19th street for 16th EB to the freeway lanes, and same deal vice versa for WB traffic, but overall it would serve well for the traffic it could potentially get; both now, and in the long term. The other option is only $10 million cheaper. I don't know how well that would work during rush hour, since right now in the afternoon rush (and I assume in morning as well), WB-SB traffic block cars in the NW corner for the SB to EB traffic due to lack of space.

[milomilo]

What's bad about it? I think there should be a lane before 19th street for 16th EB to the freeway lanes, and same deal vice versa for WB traffic, but overall it would serve well for the traffic it could potentially get; both now, and in the long term. The other option is only $10 million cheaper. I don't know how well that would work during rush hour, since right now in the afternoon rush (and I assume in morning as well), WB-SB traffic block cars in the NW corner for the SB to EB traffic due to lack of space.

What's bad about it? Unless I'm misreading it, you're building a four level interchange which still leaves 16th with two consecutive sets of signals - what's the point of that? Build it properly or don't build at all.

What is wrong with the City's road planning department? It is astounding that the Trans-Canada passes through a major city with so many (any more than zero is too many) stop lights, how could that ever have been a good idea? It wouldn't be so bad if 16th was the only example, but you have Crowchild, Glenmore, McKnight, Macleod, Beddington, Country Hills, Shaganappi, Sarcee, 14th St all apparently built with no future planning. Just leaving a but of space around these roads would have made a huge amount of difference but now they are screwed forever.

Sorry to rant, but it really bothers me. Calgary is a car based city and it's not like this growth has caught anyone by surprise in the last 40 years.

[Acey]

A 4 level interchange in the middle of Calgary? Of course we need it, but logistically it has no chance of getting built. If it wasn't built back when other major North American cities were building stacks, then they sure as hell aren't going to do it now, especially in Alberta where a proper inner city interchange does not currently exist.

[craner]

What's bad about it? Unless I'm misreading it, you're building a four level interchange which still leaves 16th with two consecutive sets of signals - what's the point of that? Build it properly or don't build at all.

What is wrong with the City's road planning department? It is astounding that the Trans-Canada passes through a major city with so many (any more than zero is too many) stop lights, how could that ever have been a good idea? It wouldn't be so bad if 16th was the only example, but you have Crowchild, Glenmore, McKnight, Macleod, Beddington, Country Hills, Shaganappi, Sarcee, 14th St all apparently built with no future planning. Just leaving a but of space around these roads would have made a huge amount of difference but now they are screwed forever.

Sorry to rant, but it really bothers me. Calgary is a car based city and it's not like this growth has caught anyone by surprise in the last 40 years.
^Exactly this!
I'm in total agreement with all you've said.

[davee930]

A 4 level interchange in the middle of Calgary? Of course we need it, but logistically it has no chance of getting built. If it wasn't built back when other major North American cities were building stacks, then they sure as hell aren't going to do it now, especially in Alberta where a proper inner city interchange does not currently exist.

We don`t even have a true 3 level interchange

[msmariner]

Metis & McNight... Deerfoot & Stoney north and south interchanges...

[Joborule]

What's bad about it? Unless I'm misreading it, you're building a four level interchange which still leaves 16th with two consecutive sets of signals - what's the point of that? Build it properly or don't build at all.

Considering WB 16th would be transitioning from a freeway to urban boulevard (the current Trans Canada is never gonna be a freeway in this city), I think lights would be acceptable in this case since high speeds won't be occurring any furthur at that point. Plus, since it doesn't need to interact with the primary Deerfoot traffic, having the lights should be sufficient for the traffic it would get. You can set the lights primarily for E-W traffic. Aside from that the purpose for the second level would be dealing with 19th street traffic mostly.

[MasterG]

What's bad about it? Unless I'm misreading it, you're building a four level interchange which still leaves 16th with two consecutive sets of signals - what's the point of that? Build it properly or don't build at all.

What is wrong with the City's road planning department? It is astounding that the Trans-Canada passes through a major city with so many (any more than zero is too many) stop lights, how could that ever have been a good idea? It wouldn't be so bad if 16th was the only example, but you have Crowchild, Glenmore, McKnight, Macleod, Beddington, Country Hills, Shaganappi, Sarcee, 14th St all apparently built with no future planning. Just leaving a but of space around these roads would have made a huge amount of difference but now they are screwed forever.

Sorry to rant, but it really bothers me. Calgary is a car based city and it's not like this growth has caught anyone by surprise in the last 40 years.

16th Ave is better as an urban boulevard than a cut-through for traffic. 14th Street (speaking of the inner city from Marda Loop to North of SAIT) is the biggest disaster at the moment IMO. It has simply failed. Its a terrible place to drive, a terrible place to walk and a terrible addition to the neighbourhoods it cuts through.

All the lights are too long and force pedestrians to cross at intersections few and far between and where the wait is long. The design promotes speeding as there aren't enough crossover points to break up traffic . This road essentially killed the urban pedestrian friendly inner city from expanding west of it.

More lights and crossings, more equality in directional traveling (i.e. 30 second cycles in each direction) should be the standard of the inner city. Let's stop allowing roads to be a barrier to a city and be a positive. Think of Memorial Drive,17th Ave SW & 4th Street. All 4 lane roads like 14th but are much more than just a road. they are a place that connects and promotes the communities they pass through without detrimentally effecting them. 16th Ave and 14th streets should evolve like those, not like Crowchild 2.0

[milomilo]

Considering WB 16th would be transitioning from a freeway to urban boulevard (the current Trans Canada is never gonna be a freeway in this city), I think lights would be acceptable in this case since high speeds won't be occurring any furthur at that point. Plus, since it doesn't need to interact with the primary Deerfoot traffic, having the lights should be sufficient for the traffic it would get. You can set the lights primarily for E-W traffic. Aside from that the purpose for the second level would be dealing with 19th street traffic mostly.

But the cheaper options remove the lights on the through route, so you're spending 10 million dollars more for an inferior design!

[milomilo]

16th Ave is better as an urban boulevard than a cut-through for traffic. 14th Street (speaking of the inner city from Marda Loop to North of SAIT) is the biggest disaster at the moment IMO. It has simply failed. Its a terrible place to drive, a terrible place to walk and a terrible addition to the neighbourhoods it cuts through.

All the lights are too long and force pedestrians to cross at intersections few and far between and where the wait is long. The design promotes speeding as there aren't enough crossover points to break up traffic . This road essentially killed the urban pedestrian friendly inner city from expanding west of it.

More lights and crossings, more equality in directional traveling (i.e. 30 second cycles in each direction) should be the standard of the inner city. Let's stop allowing roads to be a barrier to a city and be a positive. Think of Memorial Drive,17th Ave SW & 4th Street. All 4 lane roads like 14th but are much more than just a road. they are a place that connects and promotes the communities they pass through without detrimentally effecting them. 16th Ave and 14th streets should evolve like those, not like Crowchild 2.0

I sort of agree, but there needs to be adequate alternatives for cars, as they aren't going to disappear. 16th and Macloed are my two least favourite roads because they are good for no one. They are huge, ugly roads which aren't pleasant in the slightest for pedestrians and take an age to cross, yet at the same time they are congested for cars and buses because there are so many signals.

I honestly think a big improvement could be made by reducing the number of unnecessary intersections with minor roads, and also reducing the number of lanes. They are currently both very inefficient. We could probably uitilze pedestrian overpasses and underpasses more as well.

[Joborule]

But the cheaper options remove the lights on the through route, so you're spending 10 million dollars more for an inferior design!

I think me and you differ one the purpose need for the interchange. I think the interchange needs to consider the WB-SB and SB-EB traffic the highest priority, and separate them from any traffic lights since thats where issues during rush hour is present. Option 4 does it best since they are flyover ramps, thus cars don't have to slow down to a stop, only to accelerate again to the high speed they were originally going; especially for trucks, which may or may not really be the cause of the issue.

If the timing is set up to give priority to the through route, and they add lanes in both direction so you can come off from the Deerfoot turn off road to the 16th ave through road (and same deal for 16th ave EB to freeway lane), I'm sure it can still function almost the same as option 2/3, because for the traffic coming off Deerfoot, wanting to go to 19th, and the traffic going to Deerfoot, from 19th, will be minimal. You could set up the light timing like it is on Crowchild.

It's 10 million dollars more, but it's future-proof, if ever in the long term, a crap ton of traffic wanting to turn on to/off of Deerfoot makes the lights option a failure.

[davee930]

Metis & McNight... Deerfoot & Stoney north and south interchanges...

they still don't have two bridges crossing over a road at one point

[Acey]

they still don't have two bridges crossing over a road at one point

Metis/McKnight yes. Crowchild/Glenmore yes. Deerfoot/Stoney SE no, Deerfoot/Stoney NE yes. That said, "two bridges crossing over a road at one point" is meaningless if you have the room to not have to do it. Stoney NE and Deerfoot is one of the best interchanges you'll find anywhere, period.

Alberta builds cloverstacks like this, when able:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/CloverStackIntersection.svg/250px-CloverStackIntersection.svg.png

To avoid a third level.

[milomilo]

I don't know, it seems you can spend a hell of a long time on the slip roads on the Stoney/Deerfoot interchange. AFAIK stacks are the optimum interchange, and if there was one place we could have one in Alberta, that would be the place. What they have put there instead is fairly strange - I mean it works OK but to me it looks more complicated and expensive than a stack or turbine.

[MalcolmTucker]

You travel a considerable distance, but since you're at speed, it doesn't really take that long. Humans are just poor judges of time.

[Acey]

I don't know, it seems you can spend a hell of a long time on the slip roads on the Stoney/Deerfoot interchange. AFAIK stacks are the optimum interchange, and if there was one place we could have one in Alberta, that would be the place. What they have put there instead is fairly strange - I mean it works OK but to me it looks more complicated and expensive than a stack or turbine.

Nope, and... nope.

Functionally a stack is optimal, but they sure as hell are not optimal for cost or aesthetics. What they have done there is not strange at all but is in fact a very simple half stack/half clover type of interchange with the 2 flyovers swung out wide to reduce cost and allow for higher design speeds.

The only downside is greater land required.

[speedog]

they still don't have two bridges crossing over a road at one point

There are a couple of oddballs out there - McKnight and 36th Street NE and maybe Crowchild/Glenmore SW. Both definitely 3 levels.

[milomilo]

Yeah you guys are probably right. And if there's one road that is designed to be future proof in calgary it's stoney so I'll save my criticism! I saw one poster say something to the effect 'we always have the money to do things right the second time' and stoney is a perfect example of that.

[Acey]

Stoney is maybe the worst example of that, with room left to widen toward he median, ROW set aside for interchanges in the future, and all kinds of other future-proof things. It's Deerfoot, Glenmore, McKnight, Macleod, etc where we're screwed.

[milomilo]

Stoney is maybe the worst example of that, with room left to widen toward he median, ROW set aside for interchanges in the future, and all kinds of other future-proof things. It's Deerfoot, Glenmore, McKnight, Macleod, etc where we're screwed.

Oh no I mean stoney is the massive project built to help fix previous failures like deerfoot and 16th

[Acey]

What's disappointing about Stoney is that you could make it 30 lanes wide, and Deerfoot is still going to suck. It's too far away to be as useful as we'd hope it could be. The only way to fix Deerfoot is to fix Deerfoot. At least they're thinking about it, proposing bandaid fixes and what not. It's just a matter of finding a whole bunch of money to do it right.

[milomilo]

What's disappointing about Stoney is that you could make it 30 lanes wide, and Deerfoot is still going to suck. It's too far away to be as useful as we'd hope it could be. The only way to fix Deerfoot is to fix Deerfoot. At least they're thinking about it, proposing bandaid fixes and what not. It's just a matter of finding a whole bunch of money to do it right.

And at least there is the space there to do it around Deerfoot, which I suspect is more by accident than design.

[msmariner]

Why can't Stoney just be great on it's own? What does it have to do with the problems of Deerfoot or any other road? We have a great new roadway, that any other city would love to have. Calgary has a pretty good road network compared to other major cities in N. America. It's major road is still better that I-5 through Seattle or other Freeways in LA. Lets not get started with Vancouver.

[Aegis]

What is wrong with the City's road planning department? It is astounding that the Trans-Canada passes through a major city with so many (any more than zero is too many) stop lights, how could that ever have been a good idea? It wouldn't be so bad if 16th was the only example, but you have Crowchild, Glenmore, McKnight, Macleod, Beddington, Country Hills, Shaganappi, Sarcee, 14th St all apparently built with no future planning. Just leaving a but of space around these roads would have made a huge amount of difference but now they are screwed forever.

Sorry to rant, but it really bothers me. Calgary is a car based city and it's not like this growth has caught anyone by surprise in the last 40 years.

I doubt there was much long-term planning. Many of Calgary's major roads have been the subject of small expansion/lane addition projects to accommodate the fast growth of the city, based on limited funds, without much regard for the holistic nature of the roads system. I think it's the product of only dealing with the problem when it gets so bad that it can't be ignored anymore (rather than building for the future, which is risky from a political standpoint).

[Acey]

Why can't Stoney just be great on it's own? What does it have to do with the problems of Deerfoot or any other road?

Oh believe me, I'm in the "Stoney Trail SE is the second coming of Christ" camp; it saves me at least 40 minutes on my trips south on a Friday afternoon. But at the same time, I-35 through Austin being horrible doesn't excuse the fact that the sub-standard road called Deerfoot Trail is dangerous because it carries 170,000 vehicles per day, probably twice what it's supposed to.

[5seconds]

I doubt there was much long-term planning. Many of Calgary's major roads have been the subject of small expansion/lane addition projects to accommodate the fast growth of the city, based on limited funds, without much regard for the holistic nature of the roads system. I think it's the product of only dealing with the problem when it gets so bad that it can't be ignored anymore (rather than building for the future, which is risky from a political standpoint).

That's the thing, Calgary has typically had excellent long term planning in regards to roads. Beginning in earnest in the 1950s, there have been a succession of well considered plans that took into account future growth and car ownership trends. I think that for the most part good ROW protection followed from these plans, but the actual execution of the roads rarely matched the original plans. (Which was often a good thing IMO).

I think what we are seeing has more to do with the will of those in charge when it actually comes time to spend the money, not with the planning that preceded it. I think you're right; while planning might have looked to the future, many roads would appear to be built for the present (whenever that present was) and not for the future.

[Acey]

That's the thing, Calgary has typically had excellent long term planning in regards to roads.

The fact that we don't have anything resembling an east-west route makes me disagree with this statement.

[DoubleK]

The fact that we don't have anything resembling an east-west route makes me disagree with this statement.

Perhaps in the North half of the city... Glenmore is pretty serviceable as an inner city expressway.

[suburbia]

I've spent the better part of the last 30 minutes trying to find the three options for Crowchild Trail that the City floated some time ago, which later got pulled in favour of more consultation. It looks like they pulled the options completely off their web-site. Can anyone with better searching skills direct me?

[H.E.Pennypacker]

Perhaps in the North half of the city... Glenmore is pretty serviceable as an inner city expressway.

Beddington or John Laurie are the best examples I can think of for the North

[suburbia]

Beddington or John Laurie are the best examples I can think of for the North

Beddington does not go East past Deerfoot, and is not a freeway for any of its stretch (heck, there is a light just as you clear the off-ramp from Deerfoot!.

McKignt / John Laurie cannot be counted as any sort of express way, particularly from 48th Ave NW till Deerfoot (and is only really an expressway for the segment from 48th Ave NW till Shaganappi.

[Riise]

What is wrong with the City's road planning department? It is astounding that the Trans-Canada passes through a major city with so many (any more than zero is too many) stop lights, how could that ever have been a good idea? It wouldn't be so bad if 16th was the only example, but you have Crowchild, Glenmore, McKnight, Macleod, Beddington, Country Hills, Shaganappi, Sarcee, 14th St all apparently built with no future planning. Just leaving a but of space around these roads would have made a huge amount of difference but now they are screwed forever.

Sorry to rant, but it really bothers me. Calgary is a car based city and it's not like this growth has caught anyone by surprise in the last 40 years.

It is when your transportation system relies almost entirely on the private automobile that you are truly screwed forever. This doesn't mean there needs to be a war against cars but, much to the contrary, an understanding that it is unfair to ask the car to play a role it cannot realistically perform.

Calgary is in a difficult position because it realizes that continually adding road space won't solve its transportation issues and it must invest in other modes of transport but, unfortunately, they were so under-funded they cannot pick up the slack in the mean time. It has to wait until the other modes can play their role and take a larger modal-share before it can spend the money necessary to modify the road network and enable it to plays its still important but smaller role.

In the mean time, it can only afford small fixes that help with the pain.

[sportsdude]

H.E Pennypacker: Did you mean Country Hills Blvd which served as a pre-cursor Stoney Trail for the North and not Beddington Trail?

I think the North has Memorial Drive as its inner-city East-West route and McKnight Blvd is a major East - West route in the north that have relatively low amount of lights on them.

[H.E.Pennypacker]

Beddington does not go East past Deerfoot, and is not a freeway for any of its stretch (heck, there is a light just as you clear the off-ramp from Deerfoot!.

McKignt / John Laurie cannot be counted as any sort of express way, particularly from 48th Ave NW till Deerfoot (and is only really an expressway for the segment from 48th Ave NW till Shaganappi.

I know - that's why the north is so bad :haha:

But as far as going E-W is concerned, those are the two routes I use most

It would be nice if JL-McKnight could be evolved into a free flowing expressway .. Even renovating some of the interchanges at Beddington could help improve the flow of it

^ I forgot about CH Blvd actually .. Stoney's helped that, but it would be nice to have something free flowing through the middle of the north

[5seconds]

The fact that we don't have anything resembling an east-west route makes me disagree with this statement.

Planning, not execution.

The primary E-W routes in the city have variously been planned as (From the south to the north)

22x
Anderson
Glenmore
50th Ave
17th ave SE/12th ave SW/Bow Trail/Old Banff Coach Road
(And later as 17th ave SE/Bow Trail through Downtown/Old Banff Coach Road)
Memorial
16th Ave (later 24th ave)
McKnight/John Laurie
Stoney Trail

In the north of course the Airport and Nose Hill Park has stood as obstacles in the path of E-W routes. The list above excludes routes that are interrupted between the E and W city limits at the time of planning (1956 onwards).

[DoubleK]

http://publicsafety.utah.gov/highwaysafety/images/slowdownmoveoverfender.jpg

Sad news about the motorist killed inspecting his truck on Deerfoot this afternoon.

You see signs like the one shown above everywhere in the US. I don't know why this kind of campaign has not caught on in Calgary.

[suburbia]

H.E Pennypacker: Did you mean Country Hills Blvd which served as a pre-cursor Stoney Trail for the North and not Beddington Trail?

I think the North has Memorial Drive as its inner-city East-West route and McKnight Blvd is a major East - West route in the north that have relatively low amount of lights on them.

Memorial is Centre Ave and is certainly not Glenmore of the North ... LOL!

McKinght is a gong-show. You can't compare to Glenmore.

Country Hills compared to Glemmore? LOL!

[H.E.Pennypacker]

Memorial is Centre Ave and is certainly not Glenmore of the North ... LOL!

McKinght is a gong-show. You can't compare to Glenmore.

Country Hills compared to Glemmore? LOL!

:haha:

And that's the point - there really isn't a Glenmore Trail for the north .. Should the City be investigating a possible upgrade on an existing network for it? And if so, where?

I think there should be .. The east-west flow in the north, especially during rush hour, sucks

As a priority though, I'd consider upgrading interchanges around Deerfoot and upgrading Crowchild as bigger issues ... I think it's impossible to get rid of congestion altogether, but certainly the flow of the major roads in parts of the city can be much better and I believe that should be the goal

[sportsdude]

Memorial is Centre Ave and is certainly not Glenmore of the North ... LOL!

McKinght is a gong-show. You can't compare to Glenmore.

Country Hills compared to Glemmore? LOL!

Never compared them to Glenmore, just simply stated them as relatively low light East-West corridors in the North. The North has nothing like Glenmore that has 13km from Ogden Road to Sarcee without a traffic light. The longest E-W sections of the North without lights are 6km of John Laurier/McKnight from Shaganappi to 4th St N.W or 5km section of Memorial from Edmonton Trail to 36 St N.E

[dmuzika]

I sort of agree, but there needs to be adequate alternatives for cars, as they aren't going to disappear...

Beddington does not go East past Deerfoot, and is not a freeway for any of its stretch (heck, there is a light just as you clear the off-ramp from Deerfoot!.

McKignt / John Laurie cannot be counted as any sort of express way, particularly from 48th Ave NW till Deerfoot (and is only really an expressway for the segment from 48th Ave NW till Shaganappi.

I think the planners dropped the ball in terms McKnight/John Laurie. When it became apparent that 16 Ave N/24 Ave N was not going to be an expressway, the city should have shifted focus onto McKnight/John Laurie. The Trans Canada Highway should have been rerouted onto McKnight, with the origional 48 Ave section being converted to a freeway similar to the the former 66 Ave S becoming part of Glenmore Trail. Depending how far back in time you go, John Laurie could have tied directly into Hwy 1A (now Crowchild Trail) before neighborhoods like Brentwood or Dalhousie were constructed. Even if that didn't happen, some of the later documents could have identified McKnight/John Laurie as the main east-west connector instead of 16 Avenue.

Could the corridor of Crowchild/Shaganappi (or Sarcee)/John Laurie/McKnight still be converted to the main east-west crosstown route?

[H.E.Pennypacker]

Could the corridor of Crowchild/Shaganappi (or Sarcee)/John Laurie/McKnight still be converted to the main east-west crosstown route?

I think it could ... Along JL, 14th St is already an overpass ... There is plenty of land around the Shagnappi and Sarcee interchanges for some upgrading to get rid of the lights from my amateur judgement

Once you get past Sarcee near Ranchlands and Hawkwood, I don't know if you can keep it though

McKnight would be a challenge all the way through and cost a ton ...

But as far as the best options for a similar freeway in the North, that corridor is probably the most ideal location wise

[MasterG]

I think the planners dropped the ball in terms McKnight/John Laurie. When it became apparent that 16 Ave N/24 Ave N was not going to be an expressway, the city should have shifted focus onto McKnight/John Laurie. The Trans Canada Highway should have been rerouted onto McKnight, with the origional 48 Ave section being converted to a freeway similar to the the former 66 Ave S becoming part of Glenmore Trail. Depending how far back in time you go, John Laurie could have tied directly into Hwy 1A (now Crowchild Trail) before neighborhoods like Brentwood or Dalhousie were constructed. Even if that didn't happen, some of the later documents could have identified McKnight/John Laurie as the main east-west connector instead of 16 Avenue.

Could the corridor of Crowchild/Shaganappi (or Sarcee)/John Laurie/McKnight still be converted to the main east-west crosstown route?

I don't see the need until there is significant intensification of land use and expansion in the far NW. But even then the Ring Road can be used for much of the cross-town traffic. Isn't the outer communities at the end of Crowchild already built out for the next decade or two?

[MasterG]

It is when your transportation system relies almost entirely on the private automobile that you are truly screwed forever. This doesn't mean there needs to be a war against cars but, much to the contrary, an understanding that it is unfair to ask the car to play a role it cannot realistically perform.

Calgary is in a difficult position because it realizes that continually adding road space won't solve its transportation issues and it must invest in other modes of transport but, unfortunately, they were so under-funded they cannot pick up the slack in the mean time. It has to wait until the other modes can play their role and take a larger modal-share before it can spend the money necessary to modify the road network and enable it to plays its still important but smaller role.

In the mean time, it can only afford small fixes that help with the pain.

I like this summary of the struggle Calgary faces. Great post :tup:

[sportsdude]

My wondering of Mcknight/John Laurier road is how did Northmount Drive get an overpass before Centre or Edmonton Trail?

However the least expensive way to create relatively long freeflow E-W corridors in the North could be done in this manner.

Memorial Drive Solution (less capacity than Mcknight-John Laurier based solution however there are too many overpasses required to make that road free flow)

12.5 KM freeflow from Parkdale Blvd/Kensington Road to 36 St N.E

Create an overpass at 10 St N.W (Yes I know an ugly overpass would not go well in the heart of Kensington and get NIMBY's like no other.)

Create an overpass and flyover at Edmonton Trail/ 4 St N.E which would be quite difficult to implement with the existing flyover.

Also the lower deck bridge at Centre St would have to be to permanently changed to right in - right out access however there would be many accidents with this configuration given limited visibility and the nearest westbound Memorial access would be 10St N.W thus making this proposal unlikely..

[suburbia]

However the least expensive way to create relatively long freeflow E-W corridors in the North could be done in this manner.

Memorial Drive Solution (less capacity than Mcknight-John Laurier based solution however there are too many overpasses required to make that road free flow)

Yo Dude, which part of "Memorial is Centre Ave" didn't you get? It can never be a North E-W solution, because it is not in the North.

[YYCguys]

My wondering of Mcknight/John Laurier road is how did Northmount Drive get an overpass before Centre or Edmonton Trail?


Just want to point out that this is actually John LAURIE (no R on the end of it) Blvd.

[MasterG]

My wondering of Mcknight/John Laurier road is how did Northmount Drive get an overpass before Centre or Edmonton Trail?

However the least expensive way to create relatively long freeflow E-W corridors in the North could be done in this manner.

Memorial Drive Solution (less capacity than Mcknight-John Laurier based solution however there are too many overpasses required to make that road free flow)

12.5 KM freeflow from Parkdale Blvd/Kensington Road to 36 St N.E

Create an overpass at 10 St N.W (Yes I know an ugly overpass would not go well in the heart of Kensington and get NIMBY's like no other.)

Create an overpass and flyover at Edmonton Trail/ 4 St N.E which would be quite difficult to implement with the existing flyover.

Also the lower deck bridge at Centre St would have to be to permanently changed to right in - right out access however there would be many accidents with this configuration given limited visibility and the nearest westbound Memorial access would be 10St N.W thus making this proposal unlikely..

Memorial freeway is a nice idea except for it ruining the best (only?) example of how to compromise between having a high-capacity road integrate with existing communities and parks without negatively effecting them too much (the degree this is true is arguable).

Replacing all of these with intersections with overpasses along Memorial would be a terrible idea. If you want to cut through the city, take a train, drive slower more directly or drive faster on the bypasses that are longer and more out of the way i.e. McKnight, Stoney etc. Otherwise the added traffic, noise and aesthetics of a Memorial Freeway would ruin many areas that Calgarians love the most along the river in the inner city.

[artvandelay]

Yet another reason why the north side of the city is terrible. Hehehe.

[sportsdude]

Yo Dude, which part of "Memorial is Centre Ave" didn't you get? It can never be a North E-W solution, because it is not in the North.

I can argue with you on semantics all day because of the Centre Ave argument but at the end of the day its called look at a map and apply some common sense. Memorial still lies in the northern half of the city and is seen by Calgarians as a road of the north.

Most Calgarians in their minds split the city up by its quadrants based on location of East/West of the Deerfoot until the road crosses the river at Anderson where the Bow river is used as the divide. For the western half of the city the location of the Bow is used whether they are north or south of it to determine NW or SW. (exception Bowness) and for the eastern half of the city the Northeast is anything north of the major industrial lands starting around Peigan Trail (perception of Erin Woods, Dover and Forest Lawn are in the NE) and the Southeast is anything south of it.

[craner]

I think the planners dropped the ball in terms McKnight/John Laurie. When it became apparent that 16 Ave N/24 Ave N was not going to be an expressway, the city should have shifted focus onto McKnight/John Laurie. The Trans Canada Highway should have been rerouted onto McKnight, with the origional 48 Ave section being converted to a freeway similar to the the former 66 Ave S becoming part of Glenmore Trail. Depending how far back in time you go, John Laurie could have tied directly into Hwy 1A (now Crowchild Trail) before neighborhoods like Brentwood or Dalhousie were constructed. Even if that didn't happen, some of the later documents could have identified McKnight/John Laurie as the main east-west connector instead of 16 Avenue.

Could the corridor of Crowchild/Shaganappi (or Sarcee)/John Laurie/McKnight still be converted to the main east-west crosstown route?
Yes, yes, yes to this, my thoughts exactly, I've thought about this many times. By far this is the best option for a northern through-city express route, would also provide close access E-W to the airport.:tup:

[speedog]

Never compared them to Glenmore, just simply stated them as relatively low light East-West corridors in the North. The North has nothing like Glenmore that has 13km from Ogden Road to Sarcee without a traffic light. The longest E-W sections of the North without lights are 6km of John Laurier/McKnight from Shaganappi to 4th St N.W or 5km section of Memorial from Edmonton Trail to 36 St N.E
Can we assume that you don't bother stopping for the lights on Memorial at Deerfoot then?

[Joborule]

Could the corridor of Crowchild/Shaganappi (or Sarcee)/John Laurie/McKnight still be converted to the main east-west crosstown route?

I figure that if the city is ever going to get around to finally giving the north a true crosstown freeway, that would be the route. Could turn that into Highway 1A through the city (connect to 16th ave at Stoney) and Trans Canada, if it connects with 22X east of the city in the future, can be re-designated to Stoney Trail in the south, where it'll connect back to 16th ave interchange in the west.

[milomilo]

Planning, not execution.

The primary E-W routes in the city have variously been planned as (From the south to the north)

22x
Anderson
Glenmore
50th Ave
17th ave SE/12th ave SW/Bow Trail/Old Banff Coach Road
(And later as 17th ave SE/Bow Trail through Downtown/Old Banff Coach Road)
Memorial
16th Ave (later 24th ave)
McKnight/John Laurie
Stoney Trail

In the north of course the Airport and Nose Hill Park has stood as obstacles in the path of E-W routes. The list above excludes routes that are interrupted between the E and W city limits at the time of planning (1956 onwards).

Semantics really, if they don't have the ability to turn their plans into reality then the City's road planning department is pointless. I could draw grand designs on a map, it doesn't mean I am a competent city planner.

All it would have taken would be leaving some space in the right places, which given Calgary's love affair with sprawl would hardly be asking a lot.

[5seconds]

Semantics really, if they don't have the ability to turn their plans into reality then the City's road planning department is pointless. I could draw grand designs on a map, it doesn't mean I am a competent city planner.

All it would have taken would be leaving some space in the right places, which given Calgary's love affair with sprawl would hardly be asking a lot.

Not really semantics. Planners have never had the power to implement their designs; it is the role of council to allocate money, buy land and approve construction. Just because they 'don't have the ability to turn their plans into reality' does not mean it's pointless. And if you think that planners just draw a bunch of lines on a map, I agree that you would not be a competent planner.

It's all well and good pointing out the deficiencies of previous plans, but that would ignore the benefits that we have reaped from the last 60 years of planning. Imagine for a minute what this city would be like without any planning at all. (I can't for what it's worth).

Also, the planners did leave room in many places for future growth (If they didn't then the roads would not exist at all in many cases), but much of the space that was reserved has now been used over the last 30-60 years. It's easy to complain that they didn't reserve enough, but in the mid 1950s road standards were different (interchanges were smaller) and I think much of the need we have now could not have been predicted.

(That's not to say that we shouldn't demand the best of our planners now, but that planning a city in the face of rising automobile ownership in the post-war era was a very new concept when the City began planning in earnest. It's easy to point out what appear to be mistakes in hindsight but that does a disservice to all of the things they got right, but that we don't even notice because we take it for granted.)

[H.E.Pennypacker]

^ Plans to development an E-W freeway across the north could be tied into the upgrade of the McKnight/Deerfoot gongshow that presently exists

I figure JL could be turned into a free flow pretty easily - the Shaganappi and Sarcee interchanges have a lot of room for that .. Although I don't know if you could run a free flow beyond that since the road gets tighter to the houses in Ranchlands/Hawkwood before running straight into the Crowfoot centre

Sarcee could be used as a diversion from a free flowing JL to connect to Crowchild Tr (and Stoney Trail) as part of highway 1A

The hardest part is how to make it a freeflow once it turns into McKnight before Deerfoot, then the mess of that interchange needs to be addressed

[Fuzz]

I've always wondered why JLB died at Arbour lake like that. Its like Centre Street North. They both just die out. Poor planning, or purposeful design?

[MasterG]

^ Plans to development an E-W freeway across the north could be tied into the upgrade of the McKnight/Deerfoot gongshow that presently exists

I figure JL could be turned into a free flow pretty easily - the Shaganappi and Sarcee interchanges have a lot of room for that .. Although I don't know if you could run a free flow beyond that since the road gets tighter to the houses in Ranchlands/Hawkwood before running straight into the Crowfoot centre

Sarcee could be used as a diversion from a free flowing JL to connect to Crowchild Tr (and Stoney Trail) as part of highway 1A

The hardest part is how to make it a freeflow once it turns into McKnight before Deerfoot, then the mess of that interchange needs to be addressed

I don't really see the point of a new Cross-town inner freeway. Not until the areas densify significantly. If you exclude snow days (i.e. the last two weeks) is it really bad enough now that the Far NW is built out?

[fusili]

I don't really see the point of a new Cross-town inner freeway. Not until the areas densify significantly. If you exclude snow days (i.e. the last two weeks) is it really bad enough now that the Far NW is built out?

If the areas densify, wouldn't a cross-town transit system be a better option? Density allows transit to function.

[Calgarian]

I've always wondered why JLB died at Arbour lake like that. Its like Centre Street North. They both just die out. Poor planning, or purposeful design?

Most major roads in this city just die out. Glenmore / Sarcee, Crowchild, Blackfoot, Barlow (2x), Southland, Anderson, 14St (a few times)...

[You Need A Thneed]

I've always wondered why JLB died at Arbour lake like that. Its like Centre Street North. They both just die out. Poor planning, or purposeful design?

How many roads in this city actually go all the way across the city?

E/W Roads:
Country Hills Blvd
16th Ave
Glenmore Trail

N/S Roads:
Deerfoot
52nd Street/Falconridge Blvd/60th St (In the future this will continue all the way to Stoney in the North)

[5seconds]

I've always wondered why JLB died at Arbour lake like that. Its like Centre Street North. They both just die out. Poor planning, or purposeful design?

Until the mid 1970s the road was planned to continue to the ring road and possibly beyond. In a 1976 study of NW roads, it was then planned to turn north at a point between Sarcee and Nose Hill Drive and terminate at Country Hills Blvd.

Later plans show the road again extending to the ring road, but I suspect that the spacing between the Crowchild and CHB would not have allowed for another connection in between, and the JLB was terminated before hitting Stoney for that reason.

[Fuzz]

Thanks for the info. it sure would have been nice to have it go straight through, as it exists now it makes it tough to make it an E/W route without incorporating Crowchild.

[dmuzika]

My wondering of Mcknight/John Laurier road is how did Northmount Drive get an overpass before Centre or Edmonton Trail?

However the least expensive way to create relatively long freeflow E-W corridors in the North could be done in this manner.

Memorial Drive Solution (less capacity than Mcknight-John Laurier based solution however there are too many overpasses required to make that road free flow)

12.5 KM freeflow from Parkdale Blvd/Kensington Road to 36 St N.E

Create an overpass at 10 St N.W (Yes I know an ugly overpass would not go well in the heart of Kensington and get NIMBY's like no other.)

Create an overpass and flyover at Edmonton Trail/ 4 St N.E which would be quite difficult to implement with the existing flyover.

Also the lower deck bridge at Centre St would have to be to permanently changed to right in - right out access however there would be many accidents with this configuration given limited visibility and the nearest westbound Memorial access would be 10St N.W thus making this proposal unlikely..

I thought that too, not necessarily as the northern through route but more as a simple alternative for a city route of the Trans Canada Highway. However, it won't because:

- Memorial Drive is a parkway through the Bow River valley (as already pointed out). With trucks prohibited between Edmonton Trail & 10 St NW, it's not going to be expanded to a freeway. Say goodbye to the walk paths along the north side of the Bow River and say hello to the Bow River valley south of 17 Avenue SE with Deerfoot Trail running through it.

- There are some very high end homes that front Memorial Drive in Sunnyside, Hillhurst, and Westmount. The simple cost of expropriating those homes would be prohibative, however you can bet residents wouldn't stand for it. It would be political suicide.

- The city seems to want to reduce car traffic in the core, not increase capacity. While Memorial Drive is technically not part of the downtown core, it is a feeder route and would ultimatly increase traffic for the bridges going into downtown.

[MasterG]

If the areas densify, wouldn't a cross-town transit system be a better option? Density allows transit to function.

Very true. There is no point to build future inner city freeways, congestion issues on this north route aren't enough yet to warrant the development of one. A fix here and there, plus a few flow improvements along existing freeways is all the city should ever do. In the long run, freeways won't solve the problems that people think they do.

I'd much rather see investment in a 16th Ave dedicated BRT project from Whitehorn to U of C rather than another Crowchild-style road built along John Laurie. Wasn't that mentioned as part of the plan when they expanded to 6 lanes during the refurbishment project? So they could put bus lanes (or parking lanes) in when the time comes?

[dmuzika]

^ Plans to development an E-W freeway across the north could be tied into the upgrade of the McKnight/Deerfoot gongshow that presently exists

I figure JL could be turned into a free flow pretty easily - the Shaganappi and Sarcee interchanges have a lot of room for that .. Although I don't know if you could run a free flow beyond that since the road gets tighter to the houses in Ranchlands/Hawkwood before running straight into the Crowfoot centre

Sarcee could be used as a diversion from a free flowing JL to connect to Crowchild Tr (and Stoney Trail) as part of highway 1A

The hardest part is how to make it a freeflow once it turns into McKnight before Deerfoot, then the mess of that interchange needs to be addressed

Sarcee Trail is better constructed as the diversion/connection between Crowchild Trail and Hwy 1A, however Shaganappi Trail might be preferable because there's less of a parallel freeway. Does Crowchild Trail AND John Laurie Blvd both need to be freeways between Sarcee Trail and Shaganappi Trail? You would need interchanges at Sarcee Trail, 53 St NW, and Edgemont Drive. The problem is Shaganappi Trail has a split diamond interchange and the Dalhouse Drive/Northmount Drive intersection, so the diversion would be Version 2.0 of Deerfoot Trail/16 Ave/19 St.

The traffic counts on McKnight Blvd between Deerfoot Trail and 4 St NW are very similar to 16 Ave, so I’m wondering if in the short term you could get away with keeping the signals at 4 St NW, Centre St, and Edmonton Trail but widening it 6 lanes? I like the idea of signing the route Hwy 1A, or sign it as Hwy 9 to bring the main Saskatoon-Calgary route into the city.

[speedog]

Sarcee Trail is better constructed as the diversion/connection between Crowchild Trail and Hwy 1A, however Shaganappi Trail might be preferable because there's less of a parallel freeway. Does Crowchild Trail AND John Laurie Blvd both need to be freeways between Sarcee Trail and Shaganappi Trail? You would need interchanges at Sarcee Trail, 53 St NW, and Edgemont Drive. The problem is Shaganappi Trail has a split diamond interchange and the Dalhouse Drive/Northmount Drive intersection, so the diversion would be Version 2.0 of Deerfoot Trail/16 Ave/19 St.

The traffic counts on McKnight Blvd between Deerfoot Trail and 4 St NW are very similar to 16 Ave, so I’m wondering if in the short term you could get away with keeping the signals at 4 St NW, Centre St, and Edmonton Trail but widening it 6 lanes? I like the idea of signing the route Hwy 1A, or sign it as Hwy 9 to bring the main Saskatoon-Calgary route into the city.
There was an old project on the city's web site that has quietly disappeared that proposed 6 lanes from Deerfoot to John Laurie with signalized intersections at Edmonton Trail, Center and 4th Street NW. most of the abutting properties on the south side between Edmonton Trail and 4th would've been bulldozed along with some on the north side as well as a number in the northwest part of Highwood. Easier to push a project through in the future if most of the affected homes are gone - less for community residents to complain about, eh.

The project seems to have disappeared but from what I've heard the city is quietly buying up what would've been affected properties and bulldozing the homes. A number have already disappeared along McKnight as well as in Highwood. Of note, the school on the south side of McKnight while owned by CBE is no longer a public school - quite easy to shut that down. And the 7/11 on Center, they already own at least one of the properties behind them to accommodate a future McKnight expansion and the loss of some of their existing property. Just wish I could dig up that project because it had a number of interesting proposals including free flowing E-W..

[Fuzz]

Did it involve removing or redoing the Northmount Drive bridge? There isn't room for 2 more lanes there...