Calgary Roads

[You Need A Thneed]

36th Street should be ongoing by now, as should the McCall Way/Barlow roundabout. If not...more delays I guess.

They are both well underway.

[Mazrim]

Good to know, thanks. I saw the plans for the roundabout...it's gonna look funny with all the clearance problems they have being so close to a runway.

[mersar]

Frinkprof was out doing surveying work on the roundabout the other day from what he said on the weekend at the meetup.

[YYCguys]

36th Street should be ongoing by now, as should the McCall Way/Barlow roundabout. If not...more delays I guess.

Roundabout? Or intersection?

[You Need A Thneed]

Roundabout? Or intersection?

Roundabout. Barlow trail will curve to the west and have a roundabout with McCall way instead of curving to the east.

[frinkprof]

Both are well underway.

Earthworks is done on the McCall/Barlow re-alignment, concrete work just getting started.

36th Street connector has most of its concrete done, gravelling is just getting underway.

[YYCguys]

Interesting that there's going to be a roundabout. Wouldn't a stop sign for McCall bound motorists suffice?

[Mazrim]

I believe the traffic projections would have put McCall and Barlow with similar volumes, so a roundabout is the best way to handle that. Stop signs are not efficient when you can install a roundabout.

[mersar]

Was just looking through APC, and it appears that the city finally awarded the Metis from 64th to 96th contract on Oct 13 (Standard General got it). Someone else had mentioned that it had been tendered a long time ago for completion this fall, obviously they retendered it

[You Need A Thneed]

Was just looking through APC, and it appears that the city finally awarded the Metis from 64th to 96th contract on Oct 13 (Standard General got it). Someone else had mentioned that it had been tendered a long time ago for completion this fall, obviously they retendered it
It was written in the tender that there was a $100,000 bonus to get two lanes of Metis open by nov 30, but, I think the expropriation notices on the Herald a week or two ago show why the project wasn't awarded right away. There were 4 properties for which parts of them were needed to the project. Now it's getting too close to winter for any construction to start, earth moving can't happen with the possibility of freezing.

36th street is going to be crazy in the time between Barlow closing and Metis opening. The repaying and line painting that's been done will help, but that road was already busy enough, never mind it being the only road other than Deerfoot and Stoney to travel N/S in the NE.

The connector of 60th street to the unused 96th/Stoney interchange was tendered earlier in summer as well, and I haven't seen any work at all on that one either.

[mersar]

Also looking at the agenda for the LPT committee meeting this week, a proposal for attempting to resolve the issues at CHB/Royal Birch is on the table. They've decided the traffic circle is a non-option, and instead want to extend the left turn lanes further back and install more intelligent traffic sensors there. Difference being a the traffic circle idea was about $3.2M, the turn lane modifications are about $140,000.

[freeweed]

Also looking at the agenda for the LPT committee meeting this week, a proposal for attempting to resolve the issues at CHB/Royal Birch is on the table. They've decided the traffic circle is a non-option, and instead want to extend the left turn lanes further back and install more intelligent traffic sensors there. Difference being a the traffic circle idea was about $3.2M, the turn lane modifications are about $140,000.

It makes sense from a cost perspective. The extended left turn (this is WB CHB to SB Royal Birch, if it's not bleedingly obvious) is an absolute must, especially during rush hour. Traffic coming off SB Stoney often cannot merge properly - and certainly not to then turn left into Royal Oak - because of how backed up the road gets. There's plenty of room for longer turning lanes. Makes me wonder why the hell it wasn't done in the first place. :hell:

But yeah, the lynchpin here is better sensoring. We don't do very much of this in Canada but for such a lop-sided intersection such as this, where traffic patterns are going to change yet again in a couple of years, in ways no one can predict because who knows what's actually going to be built in the business park... I'm crossing my fingers.

As much as I'd have loved a traffic circle, I wasn't looking forward to the daily car crashes.

[SmokWawelski]

The left turns are good news. I also noticed that they are making a bay for the bus right by the condominium. It was absolutely awful when the bus made the left hand turn from CHB into Royal Oak only to stop....and stop all traffic behind it trying to get into the neighbourhood. Unfortunately this intersection is going to get worse and worse with time :(:(

[freeweed]

The left turns are good news. I also noticed that they are making a bay for the bus right by the condominium. It was absolutely awful when the bus made the left hand turn from CHB into Royal Oak only to stop....and stop all traffic behind it trying to get into the neighbourhood. Unfortunately this intersection is going to get worse and worse with time :(:(

OK, a bus bay - we've been wondering WTF has been going on there. A brilliant (and freaking obvious) idea.

Of course, they should just have left the bus stop around the corner, but common sense and road planning in this city don't always align.

[SmokWawelski]

I feel sorry for the owners or renters of the condo units overlooking this bus bay. First they saw the street widen then they widened it again, now the city has taken more chunk of the land for the bus bay. Next thing you know, they will put up a bus shelter right next to the balconies :):):) It sure will be difficult to sell any of those condos in the future.

[freeweed]

Really? If anything having a bus stop literally at your front door should be a selling feature. I know I was a bit miffed when the original route went right by my house, but then CT re-routed it. Not that the extra walk is a bad thing most days...

To be honest, when you buy a condo on a major intersection you kind of have to expect things like this. Besides, those condos weren't exactly sold on a high-price basis, if you know what I mean. If anything I'd be 10x angrier about the fugly McDonald's house built next door.

[freeweed]

Apparently the Hwy2/CIM interchange is open.

Plus, the City has committed to plowing all residential streets every time we get 2.5 cm of snow. Call me a radical, but doesn't that seem just a tad excessive? My frigging Acura can make it over 2.5cm of snow. Who has problems driving in this? Why can't we just use our heads - residential streets are fine, until we get freak storms or huge accumulations (like last year). Then, no shit, plow. Otherwise? Why waste the money?

Oh, and supposedly the City has realized that using large gravel is 1) less efficient as the rocks don't stick, and 2) insanely costly for motorists. Why exactly did this take so long to figure out? I lived in Calgary for precisely 3 months before realizing that the gravel here is way too big. Did someone discover a small gravel quarry or something?

[DizzyEdge]

Apparently the Hwy2/CIM interchange is open.

Plus, the City has committed to plowing all residential streets every time we get 2.5 cm of snow. Call me a radical, but doesn't that seem just a tad excessive? My frigging Acura can make it over 2.5cm of snow. Who has problems driving in this? Why can't we just use our heads - residential streets are fine, until we get freak storms or huge accumulations (like last year). Then, no shit, plow. Otherwise? Why waste the money?

Oh, and supposedly the City has realized that using large gravel is 1) less efficient as the rocks don't stick, and 2) insanely costly for motorists. Why exactly did this take so long to figure out? I lived in Calgary for precisely 3 months before realizing that the gravel here is way too big. Did someone discover a small gravel quarry or something?

Well, although 2.5 might seem silly, if it is indeed everytime we *get* 2.5, then that means that four 2cm falls in a row wouldn't get plowed, so once they do plow due to 2.5 there might 10 cm on the ground already, if one is to take that literally.

[freeweed]

Well, although 2.5 might seem silly, if it is indeed everytime we *get* 2.5, then that means that four 2cm falls in a row wouldn't get plowed, so once they do plow due to 2.5 there might 10 cm on the ground already, if one is to take that literally.

Well yeah, presuming the snow never melts here. Which has only happened once in my experience.

Like I hinted at, I'd be much happier if they spent the money based on actual accumulation, not just panic every time an inch falls.

[You Need A Thneed]

Plus, the City has committed to plowing all residential streets every time we get 2.5 cm of snow. Call me a radical, but doesn't that seem just a tad excessive? My frigging Acura can make it over 2.5cm of snow. ?

Every time there is an inch of snow is quite excessive. Thank goodness it will never happen every time there's only an inch of snow.

[freeweed]

Every time there is an inch of snow is quite excessive. Thank goodness it will never happen every time there's only an inch of snow.

I'd hope so, but the proposal (and the $10 million budget figure) is specifically worded that all residential streets will be cleared within 4 days of a 2.5cm snowfall. At least according to the news.

And you know how city departments feel the need to burn through their budgets every year, even if the work isn't actually required...

[You Need A Thneed]

I'd hope so, but the proposal (and the $10 million budget figure) is specifically worded that all residential streets will be cleared within 4 days of a 2.5cm snowfall. At least according to the news.

And you know how city departments feel the need to burn through their budgets every year, even if the work isn't actually required...

That's going to cost a whole lot more than an extra $10 million. Likely an extra $40-50 million. Of course, it could be one of those winters that we only have one snow more than an inch.

Why does Calgary need a similar snow plowing budget as other Canadian cities? Edmonton gets significantly more snow than we do, and regularly has double or triple the amount of snow on the ground. I'm not saying that snow clearing was fine before, but we don't need to clear EVERY residential street after every snowfall of an inch. Plow the collector roads, and the problem residential streets, but leave residential streets unless they are a problem. My street didn't need to be plowed for the most part last year, except after that one big dump, but by the time the city would have gotten around in four days to plowing it, the snow had mostly been tracked down by cars. Sure, I had to drive slow, but in winter conditions on residential streets, I should be driving quite slow anyway.

How many days each winter is there a buildup of snow on the main streets (in Calgary)? 4 or 5 max. Adding budget money isn't going to make streets any better while it is snowing. You could have all the money in the world in your budget and it wouldn't have done any good to help drivers for that one freezing rain we had last winter. It literally went from the roads being good to them being a frozen mess in about an hour, just as the evening rush was starting. Any extra plows on the streets would have been stuck in traffic with nowhere to go just like everyone else. Other than running glycol lines underneath every single road, there was nothing that could have been done to prevent that one.

[freeweed]

:previous: Agreed 100% with everything you said. And yeah, I have a lot of trouble reconciling $10 million with their announced goals too. I know Winnipeg's snow clearing budget, they get a lot more snow than us, and even they don't get every residential street within 4 days after every snowfall.

The optimist would like to think that this is $10 million put aside for "catastrophic" snowfalls, like we had last year. Spending money plowing that, I have zero issue with. Especially when it was obvious none of it was going to melt any time soon.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[You Need A Thneed]

the cbc.ca article talking about the extra $10 million says it's 12cm, not 2.5 cm, and seems to mean when snow accumulates to more than 12 cm a road will be plowed, not every road in the city after one snowfall of 2.5 cms.

That makes a lot more sense, if in fact that is true.

[MalcolmTucker]

I would guess that without the 2.5 cm requirement, you wouldn't save much money anyways because your employees are just going to be sitting around - might even save some work having a smaller base to clear from when a real big storm hits.

[freeweed]

the cbc.ca article talking about the extra $10 million says it's 12cm, not 2.5 cm, and seems to mean when snow accumulates to more than 12 cm a road will be plowed, not every road in the city after one snowfall of 2.5 cms.

That makes a lot more sense, if in fact that is true.

That makes WAY more sense. Thanks for that. I could also have been completely reading/hearing wrong earlier... :haha:

[DizzyEdge]

Yeah that seems about perfect.
Now I assume they're not going to drive around checking each street, so maybe when the average residential road has 12cm? I suppose you could just have almost a 'sandbox' somewhere measuring accumulated and un-melted snowfall that once it hits 12cm you go do all the roads

[Ramsayfarian]

Yeah that seems about perfect.
Now I assume they're not going to drive around checking each street, so maybe when the average residential road has 12cm? I suppose you could just have almost a 'sandbox' somewhere measuring accumulated and un-melted snowfall that once it hits 12cm you go do all the roads

Hopefully they don't use the same technique as RCR.

[freeweed]

Can't think of a place to ask this...

Anyone here use any sort of residential snow clearing service? I'm facing yet another winter with my 110' of sidewalk, and I'm already sick of chipping ice for half an hour. And it's still November.

Unfortunately Royal Oak seems empty of young boys looking to make some money - not sure if it's demographics or just kids with much bigger allowances than I ever had - so I've never seen a "will shovel driveways" type sign anywhere in the neighbourhood. So I'm resorting to possibly hiring a commercial service.

Anyone have any experience with this in Calgary? Is it worth it? How much does something like this end up costing? I seriously would have given a local kid $20 for the half hour it takes to do my sidewalk and driveway, but alas none seem to exist. I can't even be arsed to do my driveway half the time, but with city bylaws forcing me to deal with the sidewalk...

[Ramsayfarian]

Tons of landscaping companies do residential snow clearing. If you like to gamble, you can bet on it being a heavy or light snow year by paying either per dump or monthly. If you do the later, always pay either weekly or at the end of the month. Duh!

Check with neighbours or your local community paper for snow guys. I'd also keep six for signs around the neighbourhood.

Back when I first moved to Ramsay, I had a crackhead shovel my walks in the winter and mow my lawn. As long as you didn't pay him in advance and check his work, he did a great job. Haven't seen him nor thought of him for ages, I hope he cleaned up.

I digress though. For the best answer, I'd post this question on CP. More eyes over there and lest chance of getting 20 messages of how disgusting 110' of sidewalk is.

[freeweed]

I digress though. For the best answer, I'd post this question on CP. More eyes over there and lest chance of getting 20 messages of how disgusting 110' of sidewalk is.

Heh. It's at the side of the house. I don't quite have that much frontage. :haha:

The pain of a corner lot. I do find it odd that anyone here would be disgusted about long sidewalks though - I thought we all were supposed to be encouraging walking, etc. :shrug:

[Innersoul1]

I reckon that it is about $40 per visit depending on the area that is to be cleared. This is similar to the rates they charge for mowing lawns

[kw5150]

:previous: :previous:

god, I would do it for 30. I like shovelling for the workout. I shovel my entire side of the street sometimes....

[Mazrim]

This morning they had a message board on NB Deerfoot at Anderson showing the commute times to Glenmore (4 min) and Memorial (22 min). Interesting idea, but let's hope they update it regularly during the day.

There was an amusing message board on NB Macleod last weekend, and the entire weekend it said "Heavey (sic) traffic ahead, reduce speed". Of course, at 8am on Sunday, I wasn't buying it. ;)

[mersar]

Yep. That message board on Deerfoot last night was just showing 'Winter driving. Use Caution'. Showing the travel times is a good idea indeed, especially if they update it.

[freeweed]

Yep. That message board on Deerfoot last night was just showing 'Winter driving. Use Caution'.

Do you ever wonder who honestly thinks that message has a point?

If you didn't realize it's winter outside, you're obviously blind and you can't read the sign anyway. And if you didn't realize winter meant "use caution", you're obviously an idiot and a message ain't gonna fix that.

I swear - it's like those stupid signs all over downtown right now: Caution: falling ice and snow. Um, what exactly am I supposed to be able to do about it? How can I possibly be "cautious" about this? Walk around constantly staring up, and dodging falling chunks of ice (while colliding with everything else)?

[shevallo]

I thought of an interesting idea on my LONG commute home last night sitting in traffic on Crowchild. What if we had some sort of rating for roads that told you a recommended reduction in speed on roads. You know how they have visibility ratings on highways, etc. What if we had a speed reduction rating. It seems that the average Joe Schmoe moron doesn't know what speed to drive under adverse conditions. I'm thinking it could be announced on the news and on radios what the recommended speed would be. You could have a percentage. For instance, if they know that roads are not great, but not horrible, maybe the rating would be 10% reduction. That would mean the recommended speed on Crowchild would be 72km/h instead of 80km/h.

When you hear what the rating is in the morning on the radio or news, you could try to figure out how long it will take you to get to work (assuming most drivers followed the recommended reduction). It just seems like some people drive super fast, while most just crawl agonizingly slow. This would give a recommended speed to be travelling.

I suppose you could have different ratings for different roads, but if you had a general percentage, it would make it much simpler. Maybe they do similar things in other parts of the world, I've never heard of it.

Thoughts?

[MalcolmTucker]

I remember driving through Italy they had that, all the speed signs on the autoroutes were lcds so the speed could be adjusted based on volume, construction, accidents, or weather delays.

[shevallo]

Yeah, I've seen that on the Confederation Bridge here between PEI and New Brunswick. That would be the ultimate solution, but obviously would cost a bit more than just announcing a rating over the radio ever day.

[Mazrim]

You can't expect people to listen to the radio every time they go on the road. It just won't happen.

[shevallo]

You can't expect people to listen to the radio every time they go on the road. It just won't happen.

You don't have to expect them to, but at least some people would listen. Obviously, you can't force people to listen to the radio. It wouldn't be enforced by law, just a recommendation. It's like having the weather or road report on the radio / tv. Not everyone pays attention to it, but a lot of people do.

Also, I think the majority of people do listen to the radio while they're driving, especially when stuck in traffic.

[Bigtime]

I'd say the battle against the snow is being lost right now, it's piling up and the roads I was just on (Barlow and 32nd Avenue) are really slowing down.

[Innersoul1]

I thought of an interesting idea on my LONG commute home last night sitting in traffic on Crowchild. What if we had some sort of rating for roads that told you a recommended reduction in speed on roads. You know how they have visibility ratings on highways, etc. What if we had a speed reduction rating. It seems that the average Joe Schmoe moron doesn't know what speed to drive under adverse conditions. I'm thinking it could be announced on the news and on radios what the recommended speed would be. You could have a percentage. For instance, if they know that roads are not great, but not horrible, maybe the rating would be 10% reduction. That would mean the recommended speed on Crowchild would be 72km/h instead of 80km/h.

When you hear what the rating is in the morning on the radio or news, you could try to figure out how long it will take you to get to work (assuming most drivers followed the recommended reduction). It just seems like some people drive super fast, while most just crawl agonizingly slow. This would give a recommended speed to be travelling.

I suppose you could have different ratings for different roads, but if you had a general percentage, it would make it much simpler. Maybe they do similar things in other parts of the world, I've never heard of it.

Thoughts?

I have seen this system in Europe! Its is really cool. I have actually used the system in Seattle where it was installed this summer. It works really well specifically when there is rush hour trafffic and you transition from a free flowing area where you are driving at 10okmh to a section where you are driving 30kmh

[You Need A Thneed]

There is a LED speed limit sign on 80th ave in the NE. However, it cannot make the number change. Just a really noticeable sign with flashing lights.

[bookermorgan]

is that one of the ones that light up when you are speeding? Ive seen a few of those around town

[lubicon]

Not sure how recommending a speed would change or help anything. Once the first snowflake falls all bets are off on the roads. You have people driving every speed range from dead slow to over the limit.

[freeweed]

Also, I think the majority of people do listen to the radio while they're driving, especially when stuck in traffic.

With satellite radio, iPods, USB connectors in damn near every new car, plus the traditional CD players, etc... maybe I'm in an extreme minority but I haven't listened to the radio in more than a decade. I sure as hell never listen to it now, when I have so many other options to choose from.

[DizzyEdge]

With satellite radio, iPods, USB connectors in damn near every new car, plus the traditional CD players, etc... maybe I'm in an extreme minority but I haven't listened to the radio in more than a decade. I sure as hell never listen to it now, when I have so many other options to choose from.

Agreed, the only time I hear the radio is some crap like Lite96 that someone is playing in the office. Signs are the way to go.

[freeweed]

We could easily deal with adverse road conditions by coming up with ways to reduce traffic during bad weather. If 50% of Calgary's office workers telecommuted for the dozen or so bad snow days we get every year, the roads would flow smoothly and we'd see far fewer accidents.

This would require some sort of tax incentive program for companies, I guess. But it's certainly do-able. Does everyone REALLY need to be at yet another useless 8am meeting when it's blizzarding outside?

[fusili]

We could easily deal with adverse road conditions by coming up with ways to reduce traffic during bad weather. If 50% of Calgary's office workers telecommuted for the dozen or so bad snow days we get every year, the roads would flow smoothly and we'd see far fewer accidents.

This would require some sort of tax incentive program for companies, I guess. But it's certainly do-able. Does everyone REALLY need to be at yet another useless 8am meeting when it's blizzarding outside?

Or how about companies gave all their employees a commute allowance and then charged them for parking? I, for one, would take the money and walk to work. Others might choose to take the bus. Those that drove wouldn't make anything, because they would have to buy the parking.

[MichaelS]

I say we need to make our driver training/license requirements a lot tougher. Do something similar to what the Fins do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving_licence_in_Finland
I think a big key is the slippery driving course that is mandatory.

[freeweed]

I think a big key is the slippery driving course that is mandatory.

Make everyone live in Winnipeg for a winter, but WITHOUT government insurance. Trust me, people would learn in a hell of a hurry. :haha:

[Bigtime]

Roads related, here is the progress on the 4th street underpass in the East Village:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4124/5185330503_26789ace13_b.jpg

[Ferreth]

We could easily deal with adverse road conditions by coming up with ways to reduce traffic during bad weather. If 50% of Calgary's office workers telecommuted for the dozen or so bad snow days we get every year, the roads would flow smoothly and we'd see far fewer accidents.

This would require some sort of tax incentive program for companies, I guess. But it's certainly do-able. Does everyone REALLY need to be at yet another useless 8am meeting when it's blizzarding outside?

Especially when said meetings could just as easily be run over the phone with remote presentation session as required.

I fully intend to telecommute in crappy weather as soon as my company gets it's shit together and gets my remaining application on a Citrix environment. The 10% of my job that is hands on can wait until the roads are better.

[frinkprof]

I'd say the battle against the snow is being lost right now, it's piling up and the roads I was just on (Barlow and 32nd Avenue) are really slowing down.Went through there a little after you (I think) and I agree.

It is what it is. There's going to be a minimum of 5 days a year that are going to be like this in even the luckiest of years weather-wise.

[Bigtime]

Yup. Eventually during weather like this the snow is going to win a few of the battles, but we always win the war.

[YYCguys]

This morning they had a message board on NB Deerfoot at Anderson showing the commute times to Glenmore (4 min) and Memorial (22 min). Interesting idea, but let's hope they update it regularly during the day.

There was an amusing message board on NB Macleod last weekend, and the entire weekend it said "Heavey (sic) traffic ahead, reduce speed". Of course, at 8am on Sunday, I wasn't buying it. ;)

According to the Calgary Herald, there are 12 message boards along Deerfoot connected to 11 machines that communicate with a cell phone as it passes by and calculates the time it would take to get that intersection. Pretty slick, but I do have to wonder about the privacy issue, Ie: someone other than your cellphone company scanning your whereabouts using your cell phone signal (which, according the article, is a non issue).

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/slow+Deerfoot+traffic+today+City+tests+cellphone+tracking+system/3847411/story.html

[MalcolmTucker]

^ I think it is done all over, how else would traffic levels be calculated for Google Traffic?

[You Need A Thneed]

I hope this snow melts away soon. Currently, 64th ave by MKWW station is down to one lane each way, and they will need the snow to be gone to finish the work to get the permanent alignment open.

In past years, i've biked home along that route, when my regular route is still covered with snow, but there's no way I'm going to bike through there with no way for traffic to get around me safely. You just know drivers would try to get around you anyway. If you would bike in the centre of the lane, drivers would be upset with you.

[freeweed]

Our roads are toast, and holy hell you couldn't pay me to be on a bike right now. Even on a pathway, let alone surrounded by multi-ton skidding death machines operated by people texting.

[kw5150]

:previous: :previous:

Some great ideas above to streamline our driving experiences.

Freeweed, I dont do the winter bike thing either. I walk to the train (5 blocks) and hope on the 10th st station.

Yesterday, heading north on 11 st SW, I saw a biker right in the middle of the lane, holding up traffic and going at his own pace.......no wonder why people despise cyclists!!! What was this guy thinking?

Calgary REALLY needs to address the cyclists that still want to bike in conditions like this. How dangerous and inconsiderate of that cylcist.........GRRRR

[kw5150]

I say we need to make our driver training/license requirements a lot tougher. Do something similar to what the Fins do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving_licence_in_Finland
I think a big key is the slippery driving course that is mandatory.

YES!!!!! Then people will realize that you can actually go faster in the winter as long as you keep your distance. I dont get this whole "pack everyone together and go as slow as possible thing." Winter driving is not scary at all for me......Im just scared of the other nimrods with horrible driving practices. I always laught when there is a little bit of snow falling and everyone starts going 50 or 60 on crowchild. If anything, it is the slow drivers that confuse and anger everyone and cause people to do risky maneuvers to get around them. The slow people really need to stay off to the right!!

[Bigtime]

I have noticed a lot more winter cyclists so far this year, I think it is pretty cool to see it growing in numbers.

[kw5150]

I have noticed a lot more winter cyclists so far this year, I think it is pretty cool to see it growing in numbers.

Yes, but as long as it is done safely......right? I love seeing them as well! Just not going 20km/hour in the middle of a lane.....

[freeweed]

YES!!!!! Then people will realize that you can actually go faster in the winter as long as you keep your distance. I dont get this whole "pack everyone together and go as slow as possible thing." Winter driving is not scary at all for me......Im just scared of the other nimrods with horrible driving practices. I always laught when there is a little bit of snow falling and everyone starts going 50 or 60 on crowchild. If anything, it is the slow drivers that confuse and anger everyone and cause people to do risky maneuvers to get around them. The slow people really need to stay off to the right!!

It's more complicated than this. 60 on Crowchild last night was about the safest maximum speed, unless there was literally NO traffic in front of you. The stopping distance with the conditions I saw was easily 10x normal, and in some cases far more. I ran into one patch of ice on an off-ramp where I was doing 20 (20!), lightly hit the brakes, and skidded for a good 100 feet. This is in an SUV with traction control, AWD and decent tires. It was just sheer ice and there was almost no way to stop, period.

The maximum speed limit (80 on most of Crowchild) is the maximum speed under OPTIMAL CONDITIONS. It doesn't mean that you should do 50 every time we see a flake of snow, but it does mean that 60 when the roads are covered with ice (and huge snow ruts between lanes) is perfectly acceptable. That being said, I stuck to the right lane and chuckled at the guys doing 80+. I'm sorry, I don't care what kind of vehicle you have or what training you've taken, 80 was not safe last night. There's no way you could possibly stop in time if anything out of the ordinary happened. We don't get a lot of deer on Crowchild but we sure do on Stoney. Imagine seeing a deer when your stopping distance has become 40 car lengths or more.

The speed limit (and slowing down for weather) isn't just about stopping distance. It's about changing lanes (aforementioned ruts, have fun at 90 boys). It's about merging traffic, which can't speed up to 80 anywhere near quickly enough. It's about off-ramps, again they're in much worse shape than the main road and you can't just sit on your brakes for a solid minute when some jackass behind you is trying to do 80.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yes, but as long as it is done safely......right? I love seeing them as well! Just not going 20km/hour in the middle of a lane.....

I'll take the lane if I please. The car being on a road is a privilege. That being said with almost any significant snow accumulation, you have to be pretty hardy to venture off the cleared pathways.

[lubicon]

It's more complicated than this. 60 on Crowchild last night was about the safest maximum speed, unless there was literally NO traffic in front of you. The stopping distance with the conditions I saw was easily 10x normal, and in some cases far more. I ran into one patch of ice on an off-ramp where I was doing 20 (20!), lightly hit the brakes, and skidded for a good 100 feet. This is in an SUV with traction control, AWD and decent tires. It was just sheer ice and there was almost no way to stop, period.

The maximum speed limit (80 on most of Crowchild) is the maximum speed under OPTIMAL CONDITIONS. It doesn't mean that you should do 50 every time we see a flake of snow, but it does mean that 60 when the roads are covered with ice (and huge snow ruts between lanes) is perfectly acceptable. That being said, I stuck to the right lane and chuckled at the guys doing 80+. I'm sorry, I don't care what kind of vehicle you have or what training you've taken, 80 was not safe last night. There's no way you could possibly stop in time if anything out of the ordinary happened. We don't get a lot of deer on Crowchild but we sure do on Stoney. Imagine seeing a deer when your stopping distance has become 40 car lengths or more.

The speed limit (and slowing down for weather) isn't just about stopping distance. It's about changing lanes (aforementioned ruts, have fun at 90 boys). It's about merging traffic, which can't speed up to 80 anywhere near quickly enough. It's about off-ramps, again they're in much worse shape than the main road and you can't just sit on your brakes for a solid minute when some jackass behind you is trying to do 80.

Going OT, but oddley enough since moving to Tuscany 13 years ago I have NEVER seen a deer on Stoney but have seen plenty of them on Crowchild. Go figure.

[Ferreth]

:previous: :previous:

[...]
Calgary REALLY needs to address the cyclists that still want to bike in conditions like this. How dangerous and inconsiderate of that cylcist.........GRRRR

Frankly, I'd like to see cycling on major roads banned once snow starts piling up on the side of the road. I cycled in the winter when I was younger and would not have considered going on any major roadway once the snow stuck to the ground - too dangerous by far. There are other ways to go and any cyclist who complains that it adds time to there commute - welcome to the club with the rest of us car, bus and train riders!

[freeweed]

Going OT, but oddley enough since moving to Tuscany 13 years ago I have NEVER seen a deer on Stoney but have seen plenty of them on Crowchild. Go figure.

Huh. I'm the opposite, but to be fair, I've never seen one on the stretch of Stoney you've likely spent the most time on (ie: that which actually existed 13 years ago). However we see at least one a month, often several in a week on the north stretch. Generally around Shaganappi.

Considering Stoney has been one of the worst plowed roads in the entire city this winter, I'm amazed no one has plowed into one yet (pun intended). The deer do generally lay low during storms, so maybe a few more days will see it.

[mooky]

Frankly, I'd like to see cycling on major roads banned once snow starts piling up on the side of the road. I cycled in the winter when I was younger and would not have considered going on any major roadway once the snow stuck to the ground - too dangerous by far. There are other ways to go and any cyclist who complains that it adds time to there commute - welcome to the club with the rest of us car, bus and train riders!

The only way you could ban bicycles from the road, which are considered a vehicle and as such given a lane (though that rule is not followed, by most cops even), would be to repeal the bylaw against bicycles on sidewalks, otherwise it sounds like a restriction on my freedoms.

Disclaimer: I don't even own a bicycle at the moment, so I'm not a 'hard-core' -40C cyclist-commuter

[freeweed]

The only way you could ban bicycles from the road, which are considered a vehicle and as such given a lane (though that rule is not followed, by most cops even), would be to repeal the bylaw against bicycles on sidewalks, otherwise it sounds like a restriction on my freedoms.


And...? CPS closed down some ramps the other night to all vehicular traffic due to them being entirely unsafe. We restrict freedoms in the name of public safety all the time.

[Mazrim]

Considering Stoney has been one of the worst plowed roads in the entire city this winter, I'm amazed no one has plowed into one yet (pun intended). The deer do generally lay low during storms, so maybe a few more days will see it.
Having all that open space for safety's sake is starting to show it's downsides. From what I could tell yesterday when I was on Stoney, in the open areas it was easy to get drifting snow and I'm not sure any maintenance program would be able to keep up with the ice that creates.

[freeweed]

Having all that open space for safety's sake is starting to show it's downsides. From what I could tell yesterday when I was on Stoney, in the open areas it was easy to get drifting snow and I'm not sure any maintenance program would be able to keep up with the ice that creates.

True. And with trees so difficult to grow in this climate, I don't see any natural snow fencing ever being an option either.

[Jay in Cowtown]

Just to give you guys an update on these roads because I work in this industry... the storm we had Tuesday night was actually the worst storm possible for road maintenance. The streets and highway's temperature was around +6 when this storm started, it rained/wet snowed first then came 25 cms and strong winds dipping the road below zero in a matter of 1/2 hour, there's nothing city and highway crews could do to deal with pavement that wet freezing that quickly with that amount of accumulation, only roads that were sheltered from wind faired a little better. That's why you're seeing hard packed ice on roads and streets this long... some ice is almost 3 inches thick.

... now I'm heading back out to work some more :hell:

[mooky]

And...? CPS closed down some ramps the other night to all vehicular traffic due to them being entirely unsafe. We restrict freedoms in the name of public safety all the time.

But that's to all traffic. You either have two choices:

1) Law to ban bikes on the street once snow flies, which I'm fine with, but its not a law now, so bikers are just doing what they are legally entitled if crazy to be doing

2) Allow them on sidewalks, though that doesn't allow them on main routes where there are no sidewalks, but I guess you could argue they could always use side roads to commute, making it a safer albeit longer commute in the cold.... I assume all but the most hardcore would just choose to stop riding during that type of weather.

[MasterG]

But that's to all traffic. You either have two choices:

1) Law to ban bikes on the street once snow flies, which I'm fine with, but its not a law now, so bikers are just doing what they are legally entitled if crazy to be doing

2) Allow them on sidewalks, though that doesn't allow them on main routes where there are no sidewalks, but I guess you could argue they could always use side roads to commute, making it a safer albeit longer commute in the cold.... I assume all but the most hardcore would just choose to stop riding during that type of weather.

I have no problems with cyclists in the winter, they most often stay away from the main drags anyways, seeing as how the gridlock applies to them too. Cycling for the most part doesnt suffer the same delays during these storms, i went to uni and it took me an extra 5mins due to ice from my normal commute in summer, not a big change at all. However it did suck... -20 and cycling is past my limit lol.

The thing that bothers me is the jerks who block the intersections. Yeah things are slow and gridlocked, but it doesnt help when you go through on a red and line up in the intersection blocking all possible turns. That and people cutting off buses with 50 people on them to keep there spot in the lane are my biggest peeves :hell:

[freeweed]

Just to give you guys an update on these roads because I work in this industry... the storm we had Tuesday night was actually the worst storm possible for road maintenance. The streets and highway's temperature was around +6 when this storm started, it rained/wet snowed first then came 25 cms and strong winds dipping the road below zero in a matter of 1/2 hour, there's nothing city and highway crews could do to deal with pavement that wet freezing that quickly with that amount of accumulation, only roads that were sheltered from wind faired a little better. That's why you're seeing hard packed ice on roads and streets this long... some ice is almost 3 inches thick.

... now I'm heading back out to work some more :hell:

Jay, just have to say thanks. Even if you see a lot of general bitching from people like me, we appreciate the work you do (even if it's sometimes not planned very well by your bosses).

And yeah, I completely agree with the conditions being the big factor here. I had to shovel/chip quite a lot of ice from my sidewalk the first time. It wasn't quite 3 inches, but it also doesn't have multi-ton weights compressing it. I'm not surprised our roads were terrible. I just wish we'd use a bit more salt in these rare occasions where the roads are going to ice up so badly.

[You Need A Thneed]

Jay, just have to say thanks. Even if you see a lot of general bitching from people like me, we appreciate the work you do (even if it's sometimes not planned very well by your bosses).

And yeah, I completely agree with the conditions being the big factor here. I had to shovel/chip quite a lot of ice from my sidewalk the first time. It wasn't quite 3 inches, but it also doesn't have multi-ton weights compressing it. I'm not surprised our roads were terrible. I just wish we'd use a bit more salt in these rare occasions where the roads are going to ice up so badly.

Salt wouldn't have helped anything, as it cooled of to below -10. Everything would have still frozen anyway.

[Jay in Cowtown]

(even if it's sometimes not planned very well by your bosses).



I am one of those bosses. :haha:

I work for Highways... and we actually have graders working on paved highways, something that hasn't had to happen around here for over 20 years, plow trucks are virtually useless with this thick of hard packed ice.

[Jay in Cowtown]

Salt wouldn't have helped anything, as it cooled of to below -10. Everything would have still frozen anyway.

Salt was useless Tuesday, in fact it did more harm than good on the highways anyway... sure is working beautiful today though, that big ball in the sky is actually getting the road temperatures high enough that salt is eating alot of this ice away, even though the air temp is still very cold.

[You Need A Thneed]

I am one of those bosses. :haha:

I work for Highways... and we actually have graders working on paved highways, something that hasn't had to happen around here for over 20 years, plow trucks are virtually useless with this thick of hard packed ice.

Plow trucks are virtually useless any time there is hard packed ice.

[freeweed]

Salt wouldn't have helped anything, as it cooled of to below -10. Everything would have still frozen anyway.

I'm always confused by this statement. Salted sidewalks melt below -10, I've been walking on them all week. Is it a different chemical used on the roads?

[You Need A Thneed]

I'm always confused by this statement. Salted sidewalks melt below -10, I've been walking on them all week. Is it a different chemical used on the roads?

From How stuff works:

If the temperature of the roadway is lower than 15 F or so, then the salt really won't have any effect -- the solid salt cannot get into the structure of the solid water to start the dissolving process. In that case, spreading sand over the top of the ice to provide traction is a better option.

Link. (http://science.howstuffworks.com/nature/climate-weather/atmospheric/road-salt.htm)

[freeweed]

I am one of those bosses. :haha:

Then why haven't you plowed the street immediately in front of my house yet???!? :hell:

/Typical Calgarian

[freeweed]

From How stuff works:



Link. (http://science.howstuffworks.com/nature/climate-weather/atmospheric/road-salt.htm)

No no, I understand the chemical processes involved, I'm just saying that I've seen salt melt ice at temps well below -10. I've always been skeptical of the accepted wisdom of -10 ... -30, sure, but -10 seems pretty warm to have salt not work. At least from firsthand experience.

Maybe I've just seen the sun effect more often than I realize.

[Mazrim]

The ice on a sidewalk is probably not as tough a nut to crack as the stuff cars pack down on a road.

[You Need A Thneed]

No no, I understand the chemical processes involved, I'm just saying that I've seen salt melt ice at temps well below -10. I've always been skeptical of the accepted wisdom of -10 ... -30, sure, but -10 seems pretty warm to have salt not work. At least from firsthand experience.

Maybe I've just seen the sun effect more often than I realize.

What Mazrim said, and yes, whether the sun is shining is probably the biggest factor, plus whether the road sidewalk is mostly cleared with patches, or still all white. Exposed concrete/asphalt absorbs a lot more of the sun's heat than snow does.

[mersar]

Commercial ice melter (what you see spread on sidewalks) has an effective temperature down into the mid -20's usually (some claim below -30, depends on the formula). But theres also probably some difference between it and what is in the road salt mix, I can imagine due to environmental regulations (though I did have to laugh, the MSDS for one commercial ice melt I just looked at had a warning of do not dispose of by dumping on the ground). The effectiveness is also likely helped by the fact that sidewalks packed with snow likely aren't as hard packed as roads (as was mentioned above)

[The Chemist]

Yup, if the ice is very hard, the ions from the ice melter will have a very hard time getting into the crystal lattice and melting it. The reason that salt and other compounds work to melt ice is because they produce ions in water that block the formation of solid bonds, requiring much more energy to be removed from the water in order to make it freeze - in other words, lowering the freezing point. But if the ions can't get inside to disrupt the solid bonds (as with very hard packed snow or solid ice) it isn't nearly as effective.

[Ferreth]

The only way you could ban bicycles from the road, which are considered a vehicle and as such given a lane (though that rule is not followed, by most cops even), would be to repeal the bylaw against bicycles on sidewalks, otherwise it sounds like a restriction on my freedoms.

Disclaimer: I don't even own a bicycle at the moment, so I'm not a 'hard-core' -40C cyclist-commuter

The precedence has already been set by banning slow moving vehicles on Deerfoot full time. Banning cyclists from a road at certain times would be a lot more complicated as you'd have to define and sign major roads and then have someone make a call when the road is no longer safe for cycling. I'm not sure it is feasible.

[Mazrim]

The precedence has already been set by banning slow moving vehicles on Deerfoot full time. Banning cyclists from a road at certain times would be a lot more complicated as you'd have to define and sign major roads and then have someone make a call when the road is no longer safe for cycling. I'm not sure it is feasible.

It's totally feasible. If you can have dynamic speed limits (see Europe for examples), you can have dynamic restrictions on roads. Kind of like "during winter driving conditions, you must use snow tires on this mountain pass" rules.

[kw5150]

In my home town in northern BC, they would plow all of the snow into the middle of the road and then a large snowblower would come take it all away. None of this plowing all of the snow onto the parking areas and sidewalks.....and to top it off, expecting the toxic salts to take care of everything during a chinook! What a backwards program in the heart of Canada's great wilderness!

Another thing that gets me is the fact that they dont put up warning sign for parked cars and then they just plow the snow all around and all over your car......brutal

[Mazrim]

Another thing that gets me is the fact that they dont put up warning sign for parked cars and then they just plow the snow all around and all over your car......brutal

Wait, you expect them to come by in advance and warn you that they're about to plow your street? It's not hard to imagine if you're parking on the side of the road that this might happen. If it makes you feel better I guess they could put a snow route sign on every single street in the city that gets plowed......

[kw5150]

Wait, you expect them to come by in advance and warn you that they're about to plow your street? It's not hard to imagine if you're parking on the side of the road that this might happen. If it makes you feel better I guess they could put a snow route sign on every single street in the city that gets plowed......

Well, in established cities like Winnipeg. They warn you about plowing first, so yes I would appreciate some signs warning me to park on a different street.....the blanket neighborhood signs just dont cut it either....you know the ones....."we are plowing in this neighborhood....dont park anywhere!" Ubsurd.

Winnipeg does it street by street (and puts signs out) but makes sure that you can at least park on the next street over.

Im not saying that we need to plow every single snowfall, but maybe 2 or 3 major snow clearing per year in the budget. The current system just spreads anger among the citezens of Calgary and creates un-needed salt pollution.

I really shouldn't care that much because I park underground and not on the street. I just get annoyed when I see a truck plowing snow onto the sides of someones nice car.

[Mazrim]

Well, in established cities like Winnipeg. They warn you about plowing first, so yes I would appreciate some signs warning me to park on a different street.....the blanket neighborhood signs just dont cut it either....you know the ones....."we are plowing in this neighborhood....dont park anywhere!" Ubsurd.

When I was in Winnipeg I never got warnings about plowing. I guess things have changed in the last few years? Their snow routes which always get plowed are no parking during a snow storm.

Also, your spelling is absurd.

[kw5150]

When I was in Winnipeg I never got warnings about plowing. I guess things have changed in the last few years? Their snow routes which always get plowed are no parking during a snow storm.

Also, your spelling is absurd.

lol, yes, I remember the snow routes.......I didn't know about them when I first moved there and my car was towed. Kind of a rough start to my living there..... I think the snow routes are a little bit extreme.

[Koolfire]

Just to give you guys an update on these roads because I work in this industry... the storm we had Tuesday night was actually the worst storm possible for road maintenance. The streets and highway's temperature was around +6 when this storm started, it rained/wet snowed first then came 25 cms and strong winds dipping the road below zero in a matter of 1/2 hour, there's nothing city and highway crews could do to deal with pavement that wet freezing that quickly with that amount of accumulation, only roads that were sheltered from wind faired a little better. That's why you're seeing hard packed ice on roads and streets this long... some ice is almost 3 inches thick.

... now I'm heading back out to work some more :hell:

It took a week but Deerfoot finally seems to be in decent winter shape. Hopefully tomorrow we'll be out of the deep freeze and the rest of the roads can recover so they're not skating rinks.

[Ferreth]

The problem with any of these solutions is cost - how much do we want to spend so that cyclists can use main routes year round?

I have been re-visiting old haunts from when I visited Berlin, Germany as a kid. I noticed they have some kick-ass cycling infrastructure, see this example (http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=berlin,+germany&sll=51.045,-114.057222&sspn=0.723535,0.969543&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Berlin,+Germany&ll=52.466121,13.385687&spn=0.022014,0.030298&z=15&layer=c&cbll=52.466193,13.385687&panoid=-C_zFq5uXXO5wlyiSUl_5A&cbp=12,45.7,,0,38.91), 2 blocks from where my Grandmother use to live, shop and get by without a car thanks to the also lovely transit network in Berlin.

I like the separate cyclist lane, separate from the cars and pedestrians. In cases where there are cars parked, you even have a little room to help avoid the inevitable car door encounter. You also have red markings to help clue in the cars and people where you have direct interaction with either. Now, as far as snow goes, these things would be a bitch. You'd have to pick up all the snow, and have a separate sweeper just for the cycle lane. I also expect service at least to a level where someone could conceivably cycle every day of the year. All of this stuff doesn't help when we get, well this week, and all the cyclists get into their cars & stuff transit. I'd consider it a win if we could get 1% of people cycling year round in this city. I certainly don't expect it to be something for everyone.

Berlin doesn't get that much snow - I wonder how they handled the snows last winter? Then there is the cost - this is primo solution and is going to cost bucks to implement. However, I still think Calgary should start building a few of these types of things to bridge some key links - like crossing the R.R. tracks into the core downtown. They would last forever, other than requiring some more line painting in intersections. I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas how this could be implemented to account for snow?

p.s. The street scape along here is what I would consider ideal (okay some of the buildings aren't that pretty, but the form factor is ideal - it's what I always compare to in my head when looking at anything else.

[MalcolmTucker]

For downtown workers full time cyclists are definitely above 1% - close to 4% if I recall correctly. If this seems incongruous to others, I will look and try to pull the stat tomorrow - I think it may have been in the Centre City Plan?

[bookermorgan]

It took a week but Deerfoot finally seems to be in decent winter shape. Hopefully tomorrow we'll be out of the deep freeze and the rest of the roads can recover so they're not skating rinks.

You mean everything will turn to slush once the chemicals have a chance to melt the snow and ice, then freeze back into a bumpy ice shit road at night, and rinse and repeat....

I would be happier if it stayed just cold enough that nothing melts. Would keep my car a tiny but cleaner too :)