Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[ljbuild]

I recently drove on the NEWLY STRETCH OF 303 in Surprise which was really nice, (starting 1/2 mile

south of Hwy 60) which goes for 7 miles to glendale ave. Before glendale ave.

,It was also nice to see that they had an east/west freeway(Northern

Pkwy)branching off the 303. It looked as if it was making a beeline to U.O.P.

Stadium, but it came to a dead stop at Dysart.
HOWEVER
After reviewing the Plans for this hwy. I was very upset to find that It WILL

NOT BE A FULL FLEGGED FREEWAY TO THE 101. IT however has plans for

annoying traffic signals at a few intersections before the 101 which I think is

very absurd, because the west valley has NO EAST/WEST freeways

in the MID SECTION. In addition, development and population is really sparse along that route,

which means LESS TO TEAR DOWN. So it would make all the sense in the

world to continue it as a full freeway to the 101 and beyond.

[plinko]

^Yeah, Phoenix definitely needs more and more freeways. Resurrect the Paradise Parkway!

[poconoboy61]

I recently drove on the NEWLY STRETCH OF 303 in Surprise which was really nice, (starting 1/2 mile

south of Hwy 60) which goes for 7 miles to glendale ave. Before glendale ave.

,It was also nice to see that they had an east/west freeway(Northern

Pkwy)branching off the 303. It looked as if it was making a beeline to U.O.P.

Stadium, but it came to a dead stop at Dysart.
HOWEVER
After reviewing the Plans for this hwy. I was very upset to find that It WILL

NOT BE A FULL FLEGGED FREEWAY TO THE 101. IT however has plans for

annoying traffic signals at a few intersections before the 101 which I think is

very absurd, because the west valley has NO EAST/WEST freeways

in the MID SECTION. In addition, development and population is really sparse along that route,

which means LESS TO TEAR DOWN. So it would make all the sense in the

world to continue it as a full freeway to the 101 and beyond.

I was out there a couple of weeks ago and I was shocked to see how far along the 303 had come along since the 4 or 5 years I had been out there last. Still, there was barely anyone on the freeway at all. I struggle with whether or not the freeway is actually needed given the recession and the obvious lethargic growth rate out there relative to pre-2008. I highly doubt things will be returning to fast growth out there given the lack of industry and the gas prices. I remember reading about all sort of development out that way predicted several years ago that clearly never materialized. There was supposed to be a some huge mall and all I saw were three car dealerships and a Walmart.

The Northern Parkway was surprising to see too. I had no idea that it was even under construction and it looks like it's being constructed as a pretty major road. Even though the parkway isn't planned to be constructed as a freeway all the way to the 101, I still wouldn't dismiss the possibility. The 51 was constructed as a low-speed parkway, with a 45 MPH speed limit. There was even a traffic light at Thomas less than 25 years ago. Now, it's just another freeway like the rest of them. I think Northern Parkway is being sold to nearby property owners as a low speed parkway, but I'm pretty sure it will be quickly upgraded within two or three decades.

[Sepstein]

I was driving the 303 last weekend heading out to that zoo. Was surprised to see looking towards the left heading south that you can see tons of highrises in far distance I assume it was Midtown but maybe it was downtown either way it looked really cool! Never seen it driving south on 101! Looks like a real metropolis form there haha!

[Jjs5056]

I'll never understand this silly notion of the obsession regarding the end to end time of the Light Rail. No one rides it end to end, so that irrelevant. Very few people likely even ride it from Sycamore/Main into Downtown. Thats like saying "We need Camelback road to have bridges over the intersecting streets to speed it up, make it more highway like!"

Light Rails job isn't to be commuter rail. Lets let it do what it does best, speed up pedestrian/bike travel and move people 5-10 miles. If we want something that does commuter rails jobs, let build commuter rail. Pouring money into slight time improvement for the light rail for the tiny handful of passengers who ride a long way is absurd.

I agree with this sentiment, and after reading all of the upcoming transit plans online, I think that maybe light rail has essentially run its course once the Mesa Gilbert Rd, Northwest Phase I, Modified NE and South lines are complete. At that point, three major metro centers will be connected. Let BRT and modern streetcar fill in the gaps; if further parts of Phoenix need connection, then start investing in a valley wide commuter system, so that Mesa and Tempe commuters are are given the same advantages as those in exurban Phoenix.

I think far too many of the future rail lines are an attempt at creating a hybrid light rail/commuter rail system, and am surprised (hardly) that there wasn't the foresight to plan a separate commuter system in tandem with the light rail, or construct the starter line in a way that would allow speeds conducive to commuting from the East Valley.

It's just strange to me that the starter line runs at grade, on a strict speed limit, with the goal of redevelopment; meanwhile, these extensions are being planned along freeways with what I have to believe are dedicated right of ways, higher speeds, and a focus on getting travelers from point A to point B as fast as possible.

Valley Metro needs to start promoting downtown as our center core with a revamped Central Station serving as the regional hub for Bus and LRT service, with secondary transit centers at 7th ave/McDowell, Central/Camelback, Veterans Way/College, and Glbert/Main.

Here are my problems and concerns with the future plans:
1) Capitol Mall: why not replace this with a 2-phase streetcar plan LRT: Phase I would run LR down VB from Central Station, to 7th Ave where the city can acquire land for a junction, sending streetcar up Grand Ave to 15th Ave in Phase II and down 7th to a Washington/17th Ave/Jefferson loop. Ideally, that would also involve improvements to the Capitol District beginning on 7th/VB including cross-street signage, flags on either side, and the acquiring of as much land between Washington and Jefferson as possible, creating a stretch of green all the way to the Capitol, filled with food trucks, vendors, the historic Library, and a museum.
2) Phase II Northwest: I think an overpass linking pedestrians and bicyclists to the Phase I terminus is a great investment; however, I don't see the advantages of a $1B investment in this 2-mile addition.
3) Northeast: Run streetcar east on Camelback from the Central TC to 32nd, looping west to 7th Ave before returning; LRT would run north to the Sunnyslope TC
4) South: Keep LRT running south on Central to Baseline.

So, I'm far from a transportation engineer - what are the flaws here? IMO, I would rather focus on creating successful routesmusing alternative modes and using leftover monies to fund streetscape and neighborhood identification programs., as well as to work on creating jobs in central Phoenix for all these commuters.

Sunnyslope and South Central seem like neighborhoods where LRT service is desperately needed, whereas I can't see the benefit of the MetroCenter or Paradise Valley investments. Particularly with the latter, the automobile will always be king, so spending $1B to send rich families to a DBacks game seems unjust. Likewise, I think making sure Phoenix, Tempe and Mesa have efficient networks should be priority before thinking about Glendale, where again, I think we'd be facing an uphil battle in changing attitudes away from the car.

But, most of all, I'm in complete disagreement with any proposal that involves a freeway alignment and think modifications to the starter line (dedicated ROW, increased speeds, under/overpases, etc.) should be done as well if that's the case.

[Jjs5056]

I've also been reading the future transit plans for Tempe and would love to hear thoughts.

1) Streetcar: For starters, when will the announcement be made regarding the selected route? I would hope that the Rio line is all but a dine deal, but the launch date has already been pushed from 2015/2016 to 2017, so these delays are a little frustrating, as I think this line is desperately needed to connect the major shore and ASU developments to LRT. However, I can't understand the rationale between starting the Rio line on Rural/Apache? That intersection will eventually be served by BRT, so if it's to reach the museum and library, this investment seems shortsighted. Other than that, the Apache leg only hits neighborhoods that are mainly filled with college kids, who are able to walk/bike to the line if it were to start at Gammage or even just south near St. Luke's. That ~1 mile long stretch could be used to extend the Rio line east to at least Rural, where I have to think Tempe would want a future extension to McClintock, but also a junction with the BRT service as soon as possible. Ending at Packard just seems like such poor planning.

They also don't mention any future plans for extensions. How long can streetcars go with success? Or, can they go for miles? I think a terminus at Rio and McClintock makes sense on that end, while I'd like to see a junction at Gammage if the current proposal passes, for a terminus at Priest and Alameda, passing St. Luke's and connecting to Fountainhead. I realize that's an incredibly long route; though, if a southern transfer at Gammage was needed, would it be an issue?

2) BRT: I was surprised to learn that BRT is scheduled to begin service in 2015; when should we expect to see plans? I am disappointed, though, to hear that the starter line will go from University north to Thompson
Peak Parkway. For such an anti-transit town, I don't feel like it's fair for Scottsdale to get this service when residents of south Tempe, who have always voted for transit, will need to wait years. On the plus side, ASU and the lake will be connected to LRT and to north Scottsdale for commuting purposes. But, I would've much preferred a McKellips - Warner line.

[N830MH]

Right now, it still planned from downtown Phoenix to I-10 West via 19th Ave. As for Paradise Valley Mall via SR-51 and it is long way to go. Hopefully in the future, they will try to extend service to Chandler via Arizona Ave. And also, Metro Light Rail is possible Mesa-Gateway Airport extension via Power Rd. When it will consider to extend service to Deer Valley Rd via Tatum Blvd?

[combusean]

Jjs asked me about commuter rail in Phoenix in the Tempe Projects thread, but in the interests of moderation I answered here.

Anyways, I'm not very optimistic for commuter rail in Phoenix.

There's two types of commuter rail generally: true commuter rail like one-direction peak-hour only rail (no weekend service) or bidirectional passenger/express rail. In the Bay Area both services exist respectively: Altamont Commuter Express (connecting the lower east bay with San Jose) and Caltrain (San Francisco to San Jose). Bidirectional, frequent service almost always depends on double tracking lines, which requires significant infrastructure upgrades, so it's often necessary to get much use out of a line.

Given that most of the Phoenix area infrastructure is single track and surrounded by low density suburban nodes with a single endpoint, ACE provides a model, but it's not a very good one. It moves reasonably quickly but it only serves a few thousand passengers a day and has a low farebox recovery ratio at 37%. The liberal Bay Area can pay for ACE on existing tracks, but I'm pessimistic about the worth and passibility to both spend $10 million/mile for the tracks and operate a low use train. The consultants can say what they want, but after comparing ACE to Caltrain and applying that to Phoenix I am very pessimistic about potential passenger counts.

Caltrain is a much better service than ACE, obviously. It gets about 50,000 weekday riders--busiest commuter rail outside of the NYC area--and has a high farebox recovery ratio at 67%, but there are many particulars about Caltrain that contribute to its high ridership.

Caltrain's has a wide peak period in which they run several trains an hour to coincide with the widely varying start times across Bay Area businesses. It closely follows US-101, a congested highway between San Jose and SF--two major nodes with thoroughly bidirectional travel between them. It serves a high number of choice and non-choice riders. It travels through an area that's much denser than Phoenix suburbs and connects over a dozen even denser downtown areas. It has the service capacity and frequency to attract riders--several trains an hour during peak. It has 150 years of active infrastructure improvements like costly grade separations, express sidings, track renewals, and the like.

And for as good as Caltrain is, it's still only hourly off peak and weekends and is frequently unreliable due to interferences on the track where it's not grade separated. An express train, which there aren't many of, can cover the 40 mile distance between the SF 4th and King station (15 minutes from downtown on the N) and off the side of downtown San Jose in an hour.

Phoenix's rail infrastructure has only gotten worse over the last 70 years, and its downtowns and potential station areas lack a number of key elements that could make them successful. The Phoenix area downtowns and station stops are even less busy than ACE's, and because they're away from freeway areas, they at most service passengers with a few mile radius of stations, with much of those radii being wide blighted and industrial areas unlike Caltrain's. Caltrain stations are serviced by extensive bus and employer shuttle services, something Phoenix lacks in areas where commuter rail would be useful.

But most importantly, downtown Phoenix and Tempe just aren't big enough nodes to extract more than several thousand daily riders on any level of service. Throw together Phoenix and Tempe and you end up with something on the scale of San Jose without the dense Peninsula and madly dense San Francisco. Doubling and quadrupling tracks to provide Caltrain levels of service in Phoenix and would be nice and would of course drive up ridership on a percentage basis, but when working with the raw, small numbers it would be difficult to justify the enormous cost of either construction or operations. Since basically every Phoenix area commuter rail passenger would be coming in by car, throw the cost of a parking space for every single one of them even on top of that.

It just doesn't pan out on any level. :(

[Jjs5056]

Thanks, Sean.

You basically said what I imagined - that the numbers just don't really pan out for Phoenix to integrate commuter rail. All of this is assuming that we'd be able to buy/lease track, too, correct?

I'd like to hear your thoughts on my other comments regarding metro's planning. It seems to me that they planned the initial line with the intent of having a successful commuter system at some point, but now they're morphing future extensions into these hybrid commuter/light rail lines. As mentioned, I feel as though they should finish what they started through Gilbert Rd, Northwest I, and South Central, and then focus on a really robust system of streetcars, and when the funds allow - create express LRT that will essentially serve as commuter rail (fewer stops, faster speed, strategic under/over-passes). As of now, I don't think it's fair that Mesa gets a glorified streetcar, while Glendale could be getting more of a high-speed, freeway-aligned line.

What is the justification for giving the Capitol Mall LRT over streetcar, for example? Couldn't those funds be used to enhance that district and provide a dignified gateway between downtown/CBD, Capitol District and Grand Avenue? And, are the millions to connect NW I to NWII (a suburban mall) best urban practices?

^ I don't know, and I am not sure if that's the best plan. It just seems like the current "18 extensions" through 2040 is ridiculous and will make the initial line outdated and useless anyway by then. I think they've also undervalued the need for transit down Camelback - 2034? For real?

I guess I'll add "East Phoenix Part I" to my 'original light rail list' and have the track extended from Central to 32nd - but would it pass? Would streetcar pass? Would we have to go for subway?

[Jjs5056]

On a related note,

I'm not sure I ever got anyone's thoughts on the Tempe Streetcar line?

Obviously, the Rio route is the better of the 2, so why is the selection taking so long? Seems like this has been drug out since 2011, and it would be a huge waste for SF and USA Place to open before this line does.

OTOH, if they are taking this long, I hope they have a solid long term plan in place. I think the Apache leg should be reallocated to Rio and allow it to go straight on to Rural. Going past Gammage/St. Luke's serves only ASU dorms, and this shouldn't be built to act as a bar trolley. It needs to hit the attractions and employment hubs on the north side of the lake.

I tried to come up with a plan where the Mill could be restored into a streetcar transfer/transit hub with a museum, retail, and lofts; but, it doesn't make sense there.

For Phase II, I'd drop a transit center on the NEC of Rural/Rio with the red/original line heading east and terminating at the Cubs stadium, and the new green line heading north on Rural, connecting the North Shore residents/employment hubs and passing SkySong as it turns left on McDowell, aiding in the redevelopment of that corridor, before traveling down Galvin Parkway, likely on its own new ROW (to bypass the circle), down through Van Buren and Phoenix Municipal/possible ASU baseball stadium, and around Priest, passing all of the midrise office buildings as it reaches University for one final turn east, where it would connect to the red line on Mill.

Whew... Honestly, I don't even know about extending that red line past Rural. The SouthBank developments will be auto-oriented, and those who want to use rail will make it a point to walk or bike the .5 miles. TMP will never redesign itself - AZ Center hasn't in 20 years. And, the Cubs are a Mesa entity - why waste 2 miles of track to connect their new stadium to Tempe amenities and light rail?

Maybe, phase 2 goes to Alameda instead of Broadway, to connect Fountainhead?

I hate this sprawled out city! :shrug:

[Wizened Variations]

Jjs asked me about commuter rail in Phoenix in the Tempe Projects thread, but in the interests of moderation I answered here.

Anyways, I'm not very optimistic for commuter rail in Phoenix.

There's two types of commuter rail generally: true commuter rail like one-direction peak-hour only rail (no weekend service) or bidirectional passenger/express rail. In the Bay Area both services exist respectively: Altamont Commuter Express (connecting the lower east bay with San Jose) and Caltrain (San Francisco to San Jose). Bidirectional, frequent service almost always depends on double tracking lines, which requires significant infrastructure upgrades, so it's often necessary to get much use out of a line.

Given that most of the Phoenix area infrastructure is single track and surrounded by low density suburban nodes with a single endpoint, ACE provides a model, but it's not a very good one. It moves reasonably quickly but it only serves a few thousand passengers a day and has a low farebox recovery ratio at 37%. The liberal Bay Area can pay for ACE on existing tracks, but I'm pessimistic about the worth and passibility to both spend $10 million/mile for the tracks and operate a low use train. The consultants can say what they want, but after comparing ACE to Caltrain and applying that to Phoenix I am very pessimistic about potential passenger counts.

Caltrain is a much better service than ACE, obviously. It gets about 50,000 weekday riders--busiest commuter rail outside of the NYC area--and has a high farebox recovery ratio at 67%, but there are many particulars about Caltrain that contribute to its high ridership.

Caltrain's has a wide peak period in which they run several trains an hour to coincide with the widely varying start times across Bay Area businesses. It closely follows US-101, a congested highway between San Jose and SF--two major nodes with thoroughly bidirectional travel between them. It serves a high number of choice and non-choice riders. It travels through an area that's much denser than Phoenix suburbs and connects over a dozen even denser downtown areas. It has the service capacity and frequency to attract riders--several trains an hour during peak. It has 150 years of active infrastructure improvements like costly grade separations, express sidings, track renewals, and the like.

And for as good as Caltrain is, it's still only hourly off peak and weekends and is frequently unreliable due to interferences on the track where it's not grade separated. An express train, which there aren't many of, can cover the 40 mile distance between the SF 4th and King station (15 minutes from downtown on the N) and off the side of downtown San Jose in an hour.

Phoenix's rail infrastructure has only gotten worse over the last 70 years, and its downtowns and potential station areas lack a number of key elements that could make them successful. The Phoenix area downtowns and station stops are even less busy than ACE's, and because they're away from freeway areas, they at most service passengers with a few mile radius of stations, with much of those radii being wide blighted and industrial areas unlike Caltrain's. Caltrain stations are serviced by extensive bus and employer shuttle services, something Phoenix lacks in areas where commuter rail would be useful.

But most importantly, downtown Phoenix and Tempe just aren't big enough nodes to extract more than several thousand daily riders on any level of service. Throw together Phoenix and Tempe and you end up with something on the scale of San Jose without the dense Peninsula and madly dense San Francisco. Doubling and quadrupling tracks to provide Caltrain levels of service in Phoenix and would be nice and would of course drive up ridership on a percentage basis, but when working with the raw, small numbers it would be difficult to justify the enormous cost of either construction or operations. Since basically every Phoenix area commuter rail passenger would be coming in by car, throw the cost of a parking space for every single one of them even on top of that.

It just doesn't pan out on any level. :(

I agree with ONE very important caveat:

Get options on the lousy old railroad lines now, while they are cheap. The key always has been and will continue to be right-of-way.

No one has any idea where Phoenix or the US will be in 20 or 25 years in terms of energy. And, baring a way to get cheap power from the 8th Dimension with the help of Buckroo Banzai, the real costs of energy will be far higher than today.

Always hedge your bets....

[Arquitect]

I agree with ONE very important caveat:

Get options on the lousy old railroad lines now, while they are cheap. The key always has been and will continue to be right-of-way.

No one has any idea where Phoenix or the US will be in 20 or 25 years in terms of energy. And, baring a way to get cheap power from the 8th Dimension with the help of Buckroo Banzai, the real costs of energy will be far higher than today.

Always hedge your bets....

Love the Banazai reference!!! Oh god, I can't stop laughing. My coworkers must think I've finally lost my mind.

[combusean]

Thanks, Sean.

You basically said what I imagined - that the numbers just don't really pan out for Phoenix to integrate commuter rail. All of this is assuming that we'd be able to buy/lease track, too, correct?



Yes, a ballot package would have to come down to featuring a few raw numbers, mainly an X raise in sales tax to give us Y construction costs and Z operating costs.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on my other comments regarding metro's planning. It seems to me that they planned the initial line with the intent of having a successful commuter system at some point, but now they're morphing future extensions into these hybrid commuter/light rail lines.


The Phoenix light rail line basically follows the path of the old Red Line bus, itself a remnant of the Valtrans elevated rail proposal that failed spectacularly in the late 1980s. The Blue Line connected south Phoenix with Paradise Valley Mall which shows up today as a funded light rail extension, and the Green Line was proposed on Thomas for miles which has been moved to I-10 and is also funded.

Most of these lines don't really connect with the existing freight rail infrastructure, so it's logical that commuter rail didn't much come into play in the decision planners. And that remains true today.

As mentioned, I feel as though they should finish what they started through Gilbert Rd, Northwest I, and South Central, and then focus on a really robust system of streetcars, and when the funds allow - create express LRT that will essentially serve as commuter rail (fewer stops, faster speed, strategic under/over-passes). As of now, I don't think it's fair that Mesa gets a glorified streetcar, while Glendale could be getting more of a high-speed, freeway-aligned line.

It's unfortunate that Mesa is building it in mixed traffic, but really, the logical endpoint is somewhere around Superstition Springs, potentially via US-60. A better endpoint would be a Power Rd alignment connecting the airport to Superstition Springs, but there's no reason that couldn't be a separate service line to limit the issues that happen when transit lines are too long.

Ideally, commuter rail and however it happens complements an LRT system, but to get that full synergy requires an extraordinarily expensive buildout of both, where we've got two lines running to Williams Gateway. The money's just not there and MAG has not delivered on any more ballot proposals. They hold the key because they have to plan, fund, design, and build the damn things.

What is the justification for giving the Capitol Mall LRT over streetcar, for example? Couldn't those funds be used to enhance that district and provide a dignified gateway between downtown/CBD, Capitol District and Grand Avenue? And, are the millions to connect NW I to NWII (a suburban mall) best urban practices?

A good part of the city's reasoning is that they want to extend it to 79th Avenue on the freeway medians they have on I-10 and potentially AZ-101 to Westgate, altho Glendale waffles on where they want their money going.

And no, the funds for the I-10 west/capitol mall extension could not be used for anything else. The funds come from Prop 400 sales tax money (passed in '04?) and state law is strict on the application of those funds from what voters decided.

And yeah, Metrocenter is a great LRT node. The bus that connects Spectrum Mall to it is one of the highest used in the system, it's a multi-modal node with good freeway access and bus service with park and rides, and it's the core of an urban village with friendly zoning to build dense and somewhat tall.

^ I don't know, and I am not sure if that's the best plan. It just seems like the current "18 extensions" through 2040 is ridiculous and will make the initial line outdated and useless anyway by then. I think they've also undervalued the need for transit down Camelback - 2034? For real?

I'm not sure what map you're referring to that has transit down Camelback. Link?

I guess I'll add "East Phoenix Part I" to my 'original light rail list' and have the track extended from Central to 32nd - but would it pass? Would streetcar pass? Would we have to go for subway?

Subway would be far too expensive. I've fantasized about cut-and-cover below Camelback Rd all the way to downtown Scottsdale, but at four times the cost of running light rail on the surface it's not worth it, and tunneling is around 4x the cost of cut and cover.

[N830MH]

It's unfortunate that Mesa is building it in mixed traffic, but really, the logical endpoint is somewhere around Superstition Springs, potentially via US-60. A better endpoint would be a Power Rd alignment connecting the airport to Superstition Springs, but there's no reason that couldn't be a separate service line to limit the issues that happen when transit lines are too long.

I have doubt it. I think they will consider it. I think they will extend from Gilbert Rd to Mesa-Gateway Airport. They will take a consideration. It will take a while. Hope they will approved it.


A good part of the city's reasoning is that they want to extend it to 79th Avenue on the freeway medians they have on I-10 and potentially AZ-101 to Westgate, altho Glendale waffles on where they want their money going.

I have doubt it. They will consider it. I'm sure they will have a chance. You won't know for sure. I think light rail will go to University of Phoenix Stadium via Loop 101. I think it is the right choice. Lots of Cardinals fans who want to go to the game.

And yeah, Metrocenter is a great LRT node. The bus that connects Spectrum Mall to it is one of the highest used in the system, it's a multi-modal node with good freeway access and bus service with park and rides, and it's the core of an urban village with friendly zoning to build dense and somewhat tall.

You know what I"m talking about? It was very bad neighborhoods. Too much problem out there. You can't go near. Stay away from the bad neighborhoods. It was too extremely dangerous out there.

Subway would be far too expensive..

Yes, you may be right. It's too extremely expensive. They cannot afford of it. There is no subway in Arizona. Only in NYC, Boston, Chicago, SF, Washington, DC, Seattle and a few US cities, as well.

[Jjs5056]

Thanks, Sean.

It just seems crazy how many spurs there are, with even 1 mile extensions taking 5-10 years. What will the starter line look like in 2024? As I mentioned, would focusing on a second express track with fewer stops and select dedicated ROWs be more worth it than trying to piece together a cheap and workable Commuter Rail?

As far as Camelback, this PDF shows Camelback within the "shadowed" area, so I assumed the plan was to head east until 24th. Sorry if I'm mistaken.

[Jjs5056]

Does Valley Metro operate on a surplus each year or no? If so, are those funds strictly governed?

I was just wondering if somehow, Valley Metro could partner with Aramark and several key apartment buildings to create grab and go markets with public restrooms. VM could lease the station and use funds to contract with Aramark and personnel for each shop. Restrooms seem to be a common concern along the route, and these markets could serve as a catalyst to other retail in underused areas.

1) Grigio Metro
2) University House
3) Union Station
4) Tapestry on Central

^ for an easy starter list.

[Tempe_Duck]

It just seems crazy how many spurs there are, with even 1 mile extensions taking 5-10 years. What will the starter line look like in 2024? As I mentioned, would focusing on a second express track with fewer stops and select dedicated ROWs be more worth it than trying to piece together a cheap and workable Commuter Rail?

How many spurs are there? Aren't there just a couple. Glendale, Norhtwest PHX, Mesa, South Phx? Am I missing something?

[combusean]

Valley Metro definitely does not run on a surplus. Every dollar of revenues goes to operations every single year.

In other news, there's an update on commuter rail--they've narrowed some alternatives.

http://www.azdot.gov/planning/CurrentStudies/PassengerRail/overview

I like the green and the yellow alternative, as green would allow for express service on I-10 and yellow for local service.

An implementation of any corridor on this map calls for bidrectional, double tracked service. I dunno if there's $4 billion to build this thing.

[N830MH]

How many spurs are there? Aren't there just a couple. Glendale, Norhtwest PHX, Mesa, South Phx? Am I missing something?

And Chandler, Gilbert & Northeast Phoenix, and Scottsdale, as well.

[HooverDam]

Valley Metro definitely does not run on a surplus. Every dollar of revenues goes to operations every single year.

In other news, there's an update on commuter rail--they've narrowed some alternatives.

http://www.azdot.gov/planning/CurrentStudies/PassengerRail/overview

I like the green and the yellow alternative, as green would allow for express service on I-10 and yellow for local service.

An implementation of any corridor on this map calls for bidrectional, double tracked service. I dunno if there's $4 billion to build this thing.

$4B is probably about the same cost as the Loop202 South Mountain. If we can build that, we can build this. Though obviously those monies are coming from much different places and it's not as if the voters will get to have some kind of A vs B choice (though I wish- I kinda think rail would win in this case).

I like the Yellow route, I encourage folks to go on, fill out the survey and vote yellow! :P

[combusean]

Nope--the South Mountain Freeway actually closer to $1 billion and change. The full fledge 12-lane monstrosity was quoted at $2 billion at the height of the boom, and has only gone down since then given recent scaling backs to eight lanes.

[DevilsRider]

Definitely yellow is the best, followed by green. If actual commuter rail in our region is not going to get funded for a long while, then Phoenix-Tucson rail could include local service (either to Queen Creek/Gilbert/Mesa/Tempe/Phoenix for yellow, or Chandler/Tempe/Phoenix for green). And either route could lay track that could be shared with dedicated commuter rail in our region in the future, saving our commuter rail system from having to build that track cost into the initial budget.

I like the Yellow route, I encourage folks to go on, fill out the survey and vote yellow! :P

[Leo the Dog]

I like the Yellow route, I encourage folks to go on, fill out the survey and vote yellow! :P

I like yellow over green too. It would serve more cities and towns and less of vacant worthless land known as Gila River Indian Reservation.

Green would also have a potential connection to Gateway Airport.

[HooverDam]

Nope--the South Mountain Freeway actually closer to $1 billion and change. The full fledge 12-lane monstrosity was quoted at $2 billion at the height of the boom, and has only gone down since then given recent scaling backs to eight lanes.

I'll bet you if the 202 gets built, the final price tag is $2B+, wanna take that bet? :)


Green would also have a potential connection to Gateway Airport.

How, or did you mean Orange?

Orange actually connects the best to PHX-MESA Gateway as they're planning to eventually re-work their terminal lay out and have the terminals on the East side. So orange is the only line that would make a direct connection.

Yellow would likely have a stop at Williams Field & Higley, in what was once the town of Higley. From there you'd switch to an ASU Poly/Gateway shuttle, which I think is fine.

[Leo the Dog]

How, or did you mean Orange?

Orange actually connects the best to PHX-MESA Gateway as they're planning to eventually re-work their terminal lay out and have the terminals on the East side. So orange is the only line that would make a direct connection.

Yellow would likely have a stop at Williams Field & Higley, in what was once the town of Higley. From there you'd switch to an ASU Poly/Gateway shuttle, which I think is fine.

Orange probably has the best connection to Gateway, but I still like the yellow Alternative. Yellow at least has a shot at a Gateway Connection, whereas, green is just too far to the west for any connection.

Edit: I just saw in my previous post I misspoke about Green being close to Gateway...I was thinking of the yellow route...

[RichTempe]

AP article on Yahoo about record transit use is the US:

Americans riding public transit in record numbers

LOS ANGELES (AP) — Americans are boarding public buses, trains and subways in greater numbers than any time since the suburbs began booming.

Transit ridership has now fully recovered from a dip caused by the Great Recession. With services restored following economy-driven cutbacks, ridership numbers appear set to continue what had been a steady increase.

Rest of the article here:

http://news.yahoo.com/americans-riding-public-transit-record-numbers-030214927.html

[MegaBass]

Tempe streetcar plan among nation's top rail projects (http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2014/03/25/tempe-streetcar-plan-among-nations-top-rail-projects/6856801/)

Federal transit officials recently spotlighted Tempe's proposed streetcar system as one of the nation's top rail projects, but city officials and residents are waiting for Valley Metro officials to provide a recommended route.

The recommendation was expected last fall, following community meetings and outreach aimed at gauging which route residents prefer.

Valley Metro officials would not comment on the cause of the delay. "Valley Metro is working with Tempe to review the two route alternatives that would present the best opportunity for federal funding while also meeting community needs," Valley Metro spokeswoman Susan Tierney said in an e-mail.

The public may learn more in April, when Tierney said Valley Metro will share the results of its evaluation with city staff, and likely the council.

Since 2007, Tempe has worked on developing a streetcar line that would travel along Mill Avenue and the city's downtown to boost redevelopment and to make it more convenient to get to the urban core.

It would be the second streetcar line in the state. Tucson's is expected to start running by summer. Unlike light rail, which operates in an exclusive lane, streetcars operate in the same lane as vehicle traffic. Streetcars typically make frequent stops in a city's downtown, while light-rail stops are farther apart and stretch across multiple cities.

"Looking at the Tempe project, that's going to connect up the ASU campus with the downtown. There's a lot of job opportunities along that corridor," said Dorval Carter, chief counsel for the Federal Transit Administration.

The estimated $130 million system would cover almost 3 miles. The two proposed routes both include a 1-mile leg that would loop downtown Tempe on Mill and Ash avenues; one would travel farther east on Apache Boulevard and the other would include a stretch along Rio Salado Parkway.

Federal Transit Administration officials this month promoted the Tempe plan, along with other rail and rapid-transit projects across the nation, for their potential to boost jobs and revitalize areas. The projects were mentioned as part of the FTA's federal budget recommendation.

However, the Tempe project can't be approved for federal funding until a revised proposal is submitted with a community-preferred route.

Choosing a route

One year ago, Valley Metro officials said they would offer the Tempe City Council a route recommendation in fall 2013. Valley Metro is charged with submitting the transit proposal for federal grant funding.

Last summer, Valley Metro and Tempe sought public feedback online and at meetings on which of the two routes residents preferred.

The two options were:

• A 2.7-mile route from downtown that would run south on Mill to Apache, then east on Apache past Arizona State University and toward Mesa, stopping west of McClintock Drive, near the existing light-rail line.

• A 2.8-mile route from downtown would run a similar path south on Mill and east on Apache, stopping at Rural Road. It would include a leg that runs past Tempe Town Lake and east along Rio Salado, stopping just west of Rural.

Valley Metro's recommendation never surfaced.

Public records show the last update to anyone on the council came at an August 2013 meeting of the Mayor's Community Roundtable, a group of 15 residents that advises Mayor Mark Mitchell on city issues. The group includes former Tempe Mayor and U.S. Rep. Harry Mitchell and Tempe Chamber of Commerce CEO Mary Ann Miller.

"At this time, the public is preferring the route that includes Rio Salado Parkway, but the FTA looks at the current existing density, which may be an issue as Rio Salado is not yet built up," a Valley Metro official told the group, according to meeting minutes.

To obtain federal funding, Valley Metro and city officials must show the project meets certain standards, which include cost-effectiveness, ridership, economic development, population and density levels.

Federal officials rejected one route in 2013. The original route, which would have snaked through downtown Tempe and traveled south on Mill to neighborhoods along Southern Avenue, rated well in economic-development opportunities but fell short in ratings for cost-effectiveness, population and density of development.

Tempe is counting on federal grants for about one-third of the $130 million needed to build the rail line. Construction costs may change based on the route. Maricopa County's regional transit board has approved $73 million.

Under federal standards, the route that would travel on Mill to Apache and on to near McClintock may rate better for population and density of development because of student housing and commercial development tied to ASU, the nation's largest campus by student enrollment.

The route that travels from downtown to Town Lake along Rio Salado may show less density. But the City Council likes the route because of planned projects, including Town Lake's Marina Heights, which will house a regional headquarters for State Farm, and ASU's future Stadium District, a commercial and real-estate development aimed at boosting funding for the renovation of Sun Devil Stadium.

The hope is that the route would eventually extend past the Tempe Marketplace shopping hub and the Chicago Cubs stadium in Mesa. But the federal grant process would count only existing development when rating a project for density.

Mayor seeks update

Eric Iwersen, a Tempe transit official, said he expects "critical decisions" on the route to be made this year, but he did not know when Valley Metro would update the council.

Mitchell said he doesn't know why Valley Metro never made a route recommendation last fall as planned, but wants an update before summer.

"We're waiting to get that information and to have that conversation with Valley Metro," he said. "I know they are continuing to assess all the options. Now, it's a matter of we've got to make a decision and move forward."

Mitchell said the delay may be tied to factoring how the routes would be affected by the surge in development at Town Lake and the future hotel-conference center project, which will include a USA Basketball training center and headquarters, at Mill and University Drive.

Congressional reauthorization of federal transit funding that expires in the fall may also be a factor, he said.

Valley Metro CEO Steve Banta did not respond to an Arizona Republic interview request.

[Jjs5056]

I posted my thoughts in the Tempe thread, but basically, I think both plans are short-sighted when thinking about future growth and any expansions to this starter line. I think a line that began at Gammage, looped around Mill and Ash, turned west onto University and terminated near Priest would make much more sense, as Fountainhead and Papago Park are two major employment/destination centers and there are both dense neighborhoods and blighted/developable lots along University. The Apache route should be funded by ASU, as it's nothing more than an anti-DUI campaign to shuttle students to Mill, while the Rio route - while better - still misses most neighborhoods, and lakeside development will happen inevitably, streetcar or not, and it won't be built with TOD standards.

Phoenix News

7th St/Ave Road Diets
Meanwhile, Phoenix released its phased goals for transportation and there were quite a few interesting and positive inclusions. It was broken into three, 5-year phases, with the first focusing mainly on converting 1-way streets to 2-way streets. But, in the next phase, they're looking at reducing the 7's between Roosevelt and VB to 4 lanes (from 6) and including things like raised medians, etc. What do you guys hope to see happen with these stretches of road?

I think raised, landscaped medians with a variety of desert plants would be a great addition and show that Phoenix landscape is about more than rocks. Also, anything to beautify these roads is a good thing. I'm not sure if the area is too small, but it might be a good place to test out protected bike lanes and use as a model for future streetscapes. Lastly, signage a la Melrose to welcome visitors would be great and hopefully distract from the gas stations at 50% of the intersections.

Possible Streetcar
Also mentioned for the first time to my knowledge was the planning of a possible streetcar route for downtown. I don't believe a timeline was attached to it, but what do you think are the most preferable areas to serve via streetcar?

1) Grand Ave - Van Buren to Grand > McDowell, 15th Ave-3rd Ave > Van Buren
This would be an obvious choice given the communtiy's grassroots efforts to fund a line themselves, but I think there are some other routes worth considering.

Pros:
-Revitalization potential for west Van Buren
-Connectivity to the Grand Ave arts district
-Additional catalyst for continued revitalization along McDowell (particularly given that 3rd ave would be in walking distance of LRT)
-Visibility and access to Hance Park
-Potential expansion to the Fairgrounds via 19th Ave - or is that redundant with one of the LRT expansions?

Cons:
-Too wide of an area? Not sure what best practice is for length, particularly for starter lines.
-Potential NIMBY backlash along 15th and 3rd north of the 10
-Residential properties along the route are fairly affluent and low-density

2) Garfield - Roosevelt-Van Buren, 5th-16th Streets

Pros:
-Serves a dense area of lower-income residential with need for public transit, connecting them to the jobs and amenities of downtown
-Reaches residential areas in desperate need of investment and revitalization, needed for downtown to grow
-Additional catalyst for an eastern expansion of the Roosevelt arts scene
-Connectivity with the Biomedical Campus
-Potential for future expansion along 16th Street

Cons:
-Heavily reliant on private investment in the area in order to encourage revitalization
-Beginning years could be a tough transition period/give the line a bad reputation

3) Coronado - Portland-McDowell, 3rd-16th Streets

Pros:
-Serves a dense area of lower-income residential with need for public transit, connecting them to the jobs and amenities of downtown
-Additional catalyst for local business ventures along 7th, 16th, and McDowell
-Connectivity with Banner Good Samaritan
-Potential for TOD adaptive reuse along McDowell using existing street-fronting building stock
-Potential for future expansion along 16th Street and/or McDowell

Cons:
-Heavily reliant on private investment in the area in order to encourage revitalization
-Beginning years could be a tough transition period/give the line a bad reputation
-Large area, and streets like Palm would reach more residents, but provoke additional NIMBYism

4) Warehouse/Govt/Convention Center - Jackson-Adams (with a part of the line hitting Buchanan between 2nd and 1st St), 3rd St-7th Ave

Pros:
-Reaches blighted areas in desperate need of investment and revitalization, needed for downtown to grow
-Additional catalyst for expansion of entertainment venues within warehouse district
-Connectivity between clusters of government buildings
-Visibility and access to warehouse district for convention guests
-Fits well into longterm strategy for Adams Street
-Future connectivity to Capitol Mall LRT line, and potential for future expansion along 7th Ave and Grand

Cons:
-Heavily reliant on private investment in the area in order to encourage revitalization
-Beginning years could be a tough transition period/give the line a bad reputation
-Reaches little, to no, residential areas; reliant on visitors, hotel guests, etc.

[poconoboy61]

I don't know if anyone has walked, driven, or biked down 5th Avenue south of McDowell lately. The street was recently repaved and whoever was responsible for the bike lane markings did less than a half ass job. The street was without any pavement markings of any kind for at least a week after paving was done, well after the asphalt was dry. When the lines were painted on the bike lane markings were clearly done without any concern for actual bikers, as the lane north of the HOV ramp onto the 10 and the lane south of the HOV ramp are so jumbled and mismatched, it's embarrassing. One travel lane on the street is also clearly wider than the other. I will write the street department to hopefully get this issue fixed. The city says is focused on becoming bike friendly, but yet they let things like this slide, hoping no one will notice or care enough to say anything.

[exit2lef]

I don't know if anyone has walked, driven, or biked down 5th Avenue south of McDowell lately. The street was recently repaved and whoever was responsible for the bike lane markings did less than a half ass job. The street was without any pavement markings of any kind for at least a week after paving was done, well after the asphalt was dry. When the lines were painted on the bike lane markings were clearly done without any concern for actual bikers, as the lane north of the HOV ramp onto the 10 and the lane south of the HOV ramp are so jumbled and mismatched, it's embarrassing. One travel lane on the street is also clearly wider than the other. I will write the street department to hopefully get this issue fixed. The city says is focused on becoming bike friendly, but yet they let things like this slide, hoping no one will notice or care enough to say anything.

I've been on them twice since the work was done and find them much better now. The lane is buffered from Willetta to I-10, and the lane is better defined through the I-10 interchange. Both times I was pedaling with a dozen other people as part of a bike-to-work Friday event, and everyone seemed to agree the lanes were better as a result of the overlay project.

[Freeway]

I don't know if anyone has walked, driven, or biked down 5th Avenue south of McDowell lately. The street was recently repaved and whoever was responsible for the bike lane markings did less than a half ass job. The street was without any pavement markings of any kind for at least a week after paving was done, well after the asphalt was dry. When the lines were painted on the bike lane markings were clearly done without any concern for actual bikers, as the lane north of the HOV ramp onto the 10 and the lane south of the HOV ramp are so jumbled and mismatched, it's embarrassing. One travel lane on the street is also clearly wider than the other. I will write the street department to hopefully get this issue fixed. The city says is focused on becoming bike friendly, but yet they let things like this slide, hoping no one will notice or care enough to say anything.

I thought I was the only one who noticed. The city clearly didn't pay any attention to that area. Anyone can see that the bike lane is not lined up right.

[N830MH]

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/mesa/2014/04/03/judge-oks-mesa-light-rail-funding-plan/7240907/

The judge say OKs for Mesa light-rail funding plan.

Mesa can move forward with an innovative plan to fund a future 1.9-mile light-rail extension, a Maricopa County Superior Court judge ruled Tuesday.

[Jsmscaleros]

5 Years of Valley Metro Light Rail -
Slice n' dice ridership data from the first 5 years of the LRT system:

http://mikemcdearmon.com/portfolio/techposts/5-years-valley-metro-light-rail

There are some interesting trends when you play with the filters and look at individual station counts.

[DevilsRider]

Mayor Stanton took reporters around the Terminal 3 SkyTrain station and the walkway to Terminal 2. Looks to open early next year...

http://skyharbor.com/pressreleases/Terminal3_SkyTrain.html

[N830MH]

Mayor Stanton took reporters around the Terminal 3 SkyTrain station and the walkway to Terminal 2. Looks to open early next year...

http://skyharbor.com/pressreleases/Terminal3_SkyTrain.html

Check this out from Sky Harbor Facebook page...Check this out!!!

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.848785358470395.1073741863.157617914253813&type=1

Go on! Take a look!

[WinnipegGuy15]

I was in the Phoenix area for vacation last weekend and drove on the stretch of Loop 303 still under construction a few times. One thing that puzzles me though, is that they're building these nice big interchanges with traffic lights, two lanes, ect. For streets that get almost no traffic. Why waste money on that? Any thoughts? Has this topic already been brought up?

[PHX31]

/\ for the future (sprawl).

[N830MH]

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2014/04/08/sky-harbor-bus-drivers-strike/7488163/

You didn't hear the news. PHX Sky Harbor bus drivers went on strike. I don't know when the strike is over. If they have a better agreement.

[phoenixwillrise]

Mayor Stanton took reporters around the Terminal 3 SkyTrain station and the walkway to Terminal 2. Looks to open early next year...

http://skyharbor.com/pressreleases/Terminal3_SkyTrain.html

As the train is built toward the west to hook up to the Rental Car Facility which the completion of is 6 years out I wonder if they have considered the opportunity of having a stop at the Greyhound Bus Terminal? Seems like a natural to me. People coming in by Bus from out- lining areas connecting to Air Travel and vice a versa. Any thoughts anyone?

[Prestige Worldwide]

Article below on Arizona 24, which is about to open soon in the SE Valley. Be careful when reading, as Jon Talton would say, "growthgasm alert!"


Arizona Republic - Regional officials: Arizona 24 will spur growth

Maria Polletta, The Republic | azcentral.com 10:24 p.m. MST April 14, 2014

The Gateway Freeway's first mile, which will connect a curving stretch of Loop 202 to Ellsworth Road, officially opens next month

Whether it's a municipal, regional or aviation official selling the vision for the greater Phoenix-Mesa Gateway Airport area, the listener better come with a robust imagination.

"Imagine a sprawling terminal on the airport's east side," they'll say, gesturing to a huge swath of undeveloped airport land. Or, "Imagine a streamlined commuter rail."

"Imagine Eastmark at build-out," the mixed-used community's 5 square miles buzzing with residents, students and skilled employees.

For years, Mesa developers and site-selectors also had to imagine Arizona 24, nicknamed the Gateway Freeway.

Not anymore. Today, the Arizona Department of Transportation will give the public a sneak peek at Arizona 24's first mile, which will connect a curving stretch of Loop 202 to Ellsworth Road when it officially opens next month.

Southeast Valley and airport leaders say the highway will facilitate the arrival of those economic-development pieces still living in the region's collective imagination, making life easier for existing commuters in the meantime.

Eastmark already sees significant traffic moving north from the Johnson Ranch, Florence and Queen Creek areas, according to Karrin Taylor, vice president of developer DMB Associates.

Eastmark's expected employment hub, along with Grand Canyon University's coming Mesa campus, will contribute to that influx.

Offices will draw new professionals and their clients, and GCU expects to have 1,500 students at the new site, planned to open in fall 2015.

"All of those things are going to work together," Taylor said. "State Route 24 helps facilitate those commutes."

It also shatters some of Gateway's development limitations, according to Jane Morris, executive director for the airport.

"Here at Gateway, we would not be on the map without State Route 202. That gave us one front door," she said. "But airports that are cul-de-sacs, that have one way in and one way out, have development constraints. This (Arizona 24) puts us at a competitive advantage to be able to develop the airport as the community around us develops."

That doesn't mean it's "all systems go" for a second, east-side terminal just yet — there are still airlines to recruit, funding to secure and Federal Aviation Administration approvals to lock down. But the freeway is certainly "one of the key pieces to it," Morris said.


"A lot of times, airports don't get the opportunity to be right in the center of these two freeways," she said. "That will set us apart as we move forward."

ADOT spokesman Doug Nintzel said he's seen transportation improvements revitalize fading areas and boost growth and movement time and again.

"You only need to look at Loop 101 as an example, where access was improved in both the East and West Valley," he said. "You wouldn't have a University of Phoenix Stadium or Westgate Entertainment District in Glendale if the 101 was not built. And the same is true of all the development that has occurred along the Loop 101 in the Scottsdale region and elsewhere.

"Freeways provide the access to help drive economic development, and that's why the transportation infrastructure will be so important in the coming decades," he said.

The region almost had to wait several more years before beginning construction on the first mile and enjoying its anticipated economic benefits.

Mesa was able to speed up the process using highway-project advancement notes, a financing mechanism previously authorized by the state Legislature when Mesa sought to accelerate construction on its stretch of Loop 202.

The notes allowed Mesa to borrow money on the bond market, hand the cash over to ADOT to build the freeway, then repay the bonds with money it eventually was set to receive from Maricopa County's Proposition 400 transportation sales tax.

"We actually saved the state of Arizona millions of dollars ... because of the timing of hitting it early," Mesa City Manager Chris Brady said. "Not only did we avoid inflationary costs that would naturally happen between building it today and building it five or 10 years from now, but the fact is, it was right during the recession. There were a lot of hungry contractors out there, and that was one of the few times where the bid prices actually came in below what the engineers had estimated."

While Mesa was prepared to borrow more than $200 million, it ultimately borrowed $122.8 million.

The first mile ended up costing less than $100 million, according to ADOT, taking the net interest cost to Mesa's treasury to zero.

"It worked out for everybody very well," Brady said. "It's a critical piece out there."

Republic reporter Gary Nelson contributed to this article.

Arizona 24 open house

What:

Sneak peek at the first mile of Arizona 24, also called the Gateway Freeway, which is nearing completion. Attendees can walk, jog, bike or skate on the pavement.

When:

4 p.m. to 7 p.m. today.

Where:

Enter using the freeway on-ramp from southbound Ellsworth Road, south of Ray Road. Follow signs along Ellsworth Road.
Who:

Gov. Jan Brewer, outgoing Mesa Mayor Scott Smith, Arizona Department of Transportation Director John Halikowski and Phoenix-Mesa Gateway Airport Executive Director Jane Morris will participate in a ribbon-cutting at 5:30 p.m.

[PHX31]

As the train is built toward the west to hook up to the Rental Car Facility which the completion of is 6 years out I wonder if they have considered the opportunity of having a stop at the Greyhound Bus Terminal? Seems like a natural to me. People coming in by Bus from out- lining areas connecting to Air Travel and vice a versa. Any thoughts anyone?

That is a good idea. But it would probably be slightly difficult (alter the route by 100 yards) and too obvious for planners and therefore will never happen.

[turpentyne]

Somebody, a few posts ago, said there was mention of adding streetcar service in downtown Phoenix. in Is there any more info on this? I've been trying to find any mention of it. Or was this just verbally brought up? It should be seriously pursued as an affordable, viable option.

Maybe I'm romanticizing the idea, but I'd be in love with such an idea. I think we need to start by rethinking the 7th ave/7th street diet suggestions, and adding streetcars. Then cut across those north/south lines with Van Buren from the State Capital east to somewhere past 16th street (maybe this would drive a revival of the section of Van Buren east of 7th street?)

We could probably add another line along McDowell - and possibly Roosevelt? Not sure if that last one's a good idea.

I think any possibilities are an improvement. Just like I think we need to stop extending the one light rail line, and turn to adding new routes, immediately

[turpentyne]

I definitely like the idea of adding a stop at the greyhound station, between the airport and the rental car facility, but yet another challenge is proving there would be ridership on that stop.

Having ridden greyhound several times, there are some sad socio-economic realities about the people that ride Greyhound. While some may find it useful to get to the airport or car rental from there, the majority won't. I can't tell you how many people I've encountered on those buses that were riding because they didn't dare risk getting on an airplane, for numerous nefarious reasons. I hope this doesn't offend. I'm not speaking out of biased perceptions: these are first-hand experiences.

[exit2lef]

Somebody, a few posts ago, said there was mention of adding streetcar service in downtown Phoenix. in Is there any more info on this? I've been trying to find any mention of it. Or was this just verbally brought up? It should be seriously pursued as an affordable, viable option.

Maybe I'm romanticizing the idea, but I'd be in love with such an idea. I think we need to start by rethinking the 7th ave/7th street diet suggestions, and adding streetcars. Then cut across those north/south lines with Van Buren from the State Capital east to somewhere past 16th street (maybe this would drive a revival of the section of Van Buren east of 7th street?)

We could probably add another line along McDowell - and possibly Roosevelt? Not sure if that last one's a good idea.

I think any possibilities are an improvement. Just like I think we need to stop extending the one light rail line, and turn to adding new routes, immediately

The Grand Avenue Rail Project has recently been transformed into a Downtown loop. Follow its progress on FB: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Grand-Avenue-Rail-Project/129848010385721

The idea of a streetcar loop was also among those presented in the recent Downtown Phoenix Transportation Plan.

In addition, the consultants hired for Reinvent Phoenix included a Midtown loop among their proposals.

Of course, none of these are funded, so there's no guarantee any will be built -- but there is talk on multiple fronts.

I definitely like the idea of adding a stop at the greyhound station, between the airport and the rental car facility, but yet another challenge is proving there would be ridership on that stop.

Having ridden greyhound several times, there are some sad socio-economic realities about the people that ride Greyhound. While some may find it useful to get to the airport or car rental from there, the majority won't. I can't tell you how many people I've encountered on those buses that were riding because they didn't dare risk getting on an airplane, for numerous nefarious reasons. I hope this doesn't offend. I'm not speaking out of biased perceptions: these are first-hand experiences.

Also, bus terminals aren't as fixed as airport terminals. Over the past few decades, Greyhound has moved away from Downtown terminals and focused instead on buildings near freeways. I'd hate to see more money spent on a SkyTrain station only to see Greyhound relocate once again. Then again, maybe a connection to the SkyTrain would have an anchoring effect.

[Jjs5056]

Somebody, a few posts ago, said there was mention of adding streetcar service in downtown Phoenix. in Is there any more info on this? I've been trying to find any mention of it. Or was this just verbally brought up? It should be seriously pursued as an affordable, viable option.

Maybe I'm romanticizing the idea, but I'd be in love with such an idea. I think we need to start by rethinking the 7th ave/7th street diet suggestions, and adding streetcars. Then cut across those north/south lines with Van Buren from the State Capital east to somewhere past 16th street (maybe this would drive a revival of the section of Van Buren east of 7th street?)

We could probably add another line along McDowell - and possibly Roosevelt? Not sure if that last one's a good idea.

I think any possibilities are an improvement. Just like I think we need to stop extending the one light rail line, and turn to adding new routes, immediately

Yes, I posted the potential lines and brought up a streetcar for discussion based on its inclusion in the city's transportation presentation.

GARP's matches one of mine nearly identically, so I suppose that one might be the most supported; I just don't know how streetcar can cross light rail tracks? Can someone confirm that it's possible?

GARP's line is Jackson and 3rd to Madison and 7th Ave; north on 7th Ave, northwest on Grand, south on 17th, east on McDowell and loop around Heritage Park by way of 3rd, 4th and 1st streets.

As you mention - as I did, as well - there are quite a few possible routes. It just depends on what goals you feel are most worth stimulating. There are also enough streets in need of revitalization that we can handle both streetcar and 7th road diets.

I support Grand Ave, but I worry that the focus on so many of its needed improvements is diluting what could be happening on Roosevelt. It's hard to believe that Roosevelt Pointe is the only new project on there since Roosevelt Square. I might prefer to see Roosevelt densify and build up before connecting Gateway. Similarly, I can't see the city revitalizing the Fairgrounds Area.

I definitely want the line running down Jackson, and even better if it could go a bit more to the south for a bit. Then, I think I'd want to hit an established neighborhood for initial ridership, a neighborhood needing help, and an area ripe for development.

I like 12th St, west on Roosevelt, north on 5th St, west on Moreland, south on 1st St, west on Jackson, north on 4th Ave, east on VB and north on 12th.

It's a bit cumbersome, but I think Garfield is a huge opportunity to revive a neighborhood with the potential to bring as much to the core as Roosevelt has. Then, a Hance stop along Moreland would help access and visibility immensely. 1st St runs south through to Jackson and hits ASU, the CBD, and sporting venues. The warehouse district is our last shot at our LoDo/Gaslamp, 4th Ave gives visibility to Union Station and goes north through to VB in an area desperate for development (Adams-Fillmore, 1st ave to 7th ave).

At the same time, there's no reason a Midtown line couldn't be done as well. McDowell has a ton of potential- add a few more gay bars next to Karambas and I bet you'd get a mini Hillcrest within a decade.

[DevilsRider]

GARP's matches one of mine nearly identically, so I suppose that one might be the most supported; I just don't know how streetcar can cross light rail tracks? Can someone confirm that it's possible?

The proposed Tempe Streetcar lines would cross the light rail tracks on Mill Ave and Ash, and I've never heard that brought up as an issue, so I imagine it's possible to do without too much trouble :)

[turpentyne]

hmmmm. good question on whether the two tracks can cross.

I could be wrong, but It seems to me I might've seen this in Toronto. There a couple stretches of separated light rail, that are blended into the streetcar system. I swear I've seen those crossing over streetcar lines at a couple intersections.

oh, I have to add as somebody who - until last week - lived in Garfield, I would love a line that better connects that neighborhood. They've redone a couple north-south streets there, and it would be interesting to see. I suppose there might be a noise/NIMBY issue for a few residents there, though But they also wouldn't put up the fight that wealthier areas would.

[dtnphx]

I was so bummed when I read this. We have nothing like this on the drawing board. Our attempt at revitalizing Central Station is bush-league and on top of that, we don't even have passenger rail coming into the Valley at all. :hell:

Here's a sneak peek at the Denver Union Station transit hub
http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/blog/earth_to_power/2014/04/rtd-gives-sneak-peak-at-denver-union-station.html?ana=e_vert&u=34892844144f674e291dd986763848&t=1398698430&page=all

[rocksteady]

I was so bummed when I read this. We have nothing like this on the drawing board. Our attempt at revitalizing Central Station is bush-league and on top of that, we don't even have passenger rail coming into the Valley at all. :hell:

Here's a sneak peek at the Denver Union Station transit hub
http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/blog/earth_to_power/2014/04/rtd-gives-sneak-peak-at-denver-union-station.html?ana=e_vert&u=34892844144f674e291dd986763848&t=1398698430&page=all Wow, I had no idea that was under development, let alone almost complete. It's amazing how quickly Denver has been revitalized over the last decade. I can't ever foresee a project like this in Phoenix even getting thought about, let alone ever built. Why can't our city planners and govt officials take note.

[Wizened Variations]

Wow, I had no idea that was under development, let alone almost complete. It's amazing how quickly Denver has been revitalized over the last decade. I can't ever foresee a project like this in Phoenix even getting thought about, let alone ever built. Why can't our city planners and govt officials take note.

Denver and Phoenix are radically different cities, actually, if one looks strips away suburbs build since the 1960s.

The urban core of Denver was laid out during the street car age, and, rather extensive housing areas were built for all social economic classes. The city, too, developed one of the largest park systems in the US, and, has had a long tradition of using these parks. Think of the city as being built around an urban center like Omaha, or Des Moines, where a huge rail yard surrounded half the city in the 1920s, and, a couple mile long stretch of medium height buildings along a couple of streets.

More importantly, unlike Phoenix, the city of Denver had great trouble increasing in area as suburbs bloomed after WWII, since the city of Denver was also the County of Denver. This forced the city to deal with increasing it's tax base differently than Phoenix. Unlike Phoenix, which had miles of room to expand in Maricopa County, Denver had to increase it's tax base largely through increasing the tax revenue from a city footprint that other than the land gained through the DIA gambit, has essentially remained constant since forced busing in the '60s, during which large portions of neighboring counties became incorporated cities.

Denver grew it's revenue base for many years by tax backed facility development, such as the expansions at the old airport, Stapleton; sports facilities such as Mile High Stadium, and McNichols Arena in the 50s and 70s; Coors Field and Denver International Airport in the '90s, and Pepsi Center as well as the new Bronco stadium (now called the Sports Authority Field at Mile High) around the at the turn of the 21st Century. In addition, from about 1970, Denver spear headed the formation of the Regional Transportation District, which is an almost metro wide funding mechanism that has been used to make a Denver centered light rail and commuter rail system, which when completed will funnel a couple hundred of thousand people per day into the downtown portions of the city, as well as provide a metro wide bus network.

The primary reason Phoenix has not produced a vibrant urban core yet, simply is that the city has not yet had too. Tax revenues increased decade after decade as the city spread out in all directions in a grid pattern with strip malls, schools, and, housing zoned even before any roads were laid out. The sheer success of Phoenix until 2008 made city government deaf to any significant change in growth pattern.

Now with Phoenix not growing much, the tax base decimated by collapse of the housing bubble, and, the city increasingly hemmed in by cities, Phoenix is having to deal with financial problems similar to those experienced by Denver since the 1960s.

[nickw252]

Work on the light-rail extension from Bethany Home Road to Dunlap Avenue along 19th Avenue won’t be finished until 2015 or 2016, but planning is under way for a route farther west.

West Valley Connecting to Phoenix by 2026 – $550M

Valley Metro will roll out a light-rail connection to the West Valley over the next 12 years, which might help clear congestion along packed corridors and change the face of Glendale’s downtown.

Five miles of light rail, streetcar track or rapid-bus infrastructure will extend from Phoenix to Glendale’s downtown by 2026. The endeavor might cost about $550M and take three years to construct, but officials expect the project to bring in economic development and help create a more sustainable metro area.

Phoenix and Glendale would split $150M, their share of the project cost.

A light-rail connection could reduce jams on Grand Avenue, where six-lane intersections lock down traffic for miles during rush hour, and more than 400 entrances to businesses and homes interrupt the flow from downtown Phoenix to Loop 303, said Bob Hazlett, senior engineer with the Maricopa Association of Governments.

East Valley Demanding More Rail – $1.1B

Mesa’s inaugural run was only the beginning of a rail renaissance that in coming decades could see the Southeast Valley laying new track not only for light rail but also for streetcars and higher-capacity, speedier trains to the Gateway area and beyond. Mesa, Chandler, Tempe and Gilbert all could play a role.

The first phase of that expansion is 3.1 miles along Main Street eastward from the Sycamore Street light-rail station.

By fall, downtown should have tracks and at least the outlines of two new stations.

The nearly $200M project is so far ahead of schedule that Mesa included operating costs for the new leg in its 2014-15 budget in case service begins next spring. That would be more than a half-year earlier than planned.

Even while planning the first extension, however, Mesa was lobbying for another 1.9 miles. That would take the tracks to Gilbert Road, scheduled to open in 2018.

Chandler is in the earliest phases of studying whether light rail would work there. Transportation Manager Dan Cook told the City Council this year that it could be 15 to 25 years before tracks are laid. Costs could reach $780M and no one knows where that would come from.

No light-rail extensions are planned in Tempe. But Valley Metro hopes to open a rail-based downtown streetcar system by 2017. Two routes for the $130M project are on the table with a decision expected soon.

Scottsdale Opponents Snooty About Rail

In Scottsdale, the mere mention of light-rail transit provokes strong opinions, arguments and even the occasional shouting match.

In recent years, some residents and city leaders have shunned light rail, pointing to what they say is its multimillion-dollar cost and possibility of drawing in more crime and disrupting businesses during construction.

As a result, light rail has failed to gain any traction in Scottsdale, and transit commuters continue to rely largely on bus service to meet their public-transportation needs.


http://azbex.com/demand-for-light-rail-extension-grows-from-glendale-to-s-e-valley/

[N830MH]

I Hoped Metro Light Rail will be next extension to Metrocenter. If they consider it. They will approved it. They will moved up from year of 2026 to 2019.

[Jjs5056]

It sucks to hear that the Tempe streetcar has been pushed into 2017; this thing has been on the drawing board forever it seems, and I can't believe there are more delays. It would be great if somehow they gained additional funding for a more extensive line, or propose a final route that is a variation, i could understand. Otherwise, the Rio route could've been started years ago.

I'm glad some cities are talking about streetcar and BRT as alternatives to light rail. If Scottsdale is out for good, then I think the light rail system we have in place will have reached buildout once Downtown Glendale (screw WestGate - you chose a cotton field over an original transit frontage), South Phoenix and the Biltmore are linked.

Beyond that, the only two routes that make sense for light rail are Rural and Camelback. I know Rural was found to need only BRT, but I think by then it had become the Tempe-Chandler line it is today. Bringing Scottsdale residents to the mix would gave to make that a viable option. And, of course, Camelback - the site of so many of our urban issues in this city. A developed uptown should be connected to a developed old town... It's too bad.

But, anyway, hearing light rail being thrown around from cities like Chandler and Gilbert is scary. Neither will have, or do they seem to want, the built environment and demographics to support it. I think it's tossed around so much because the original line is essentially a streetcar, and because we lack commuter rail. That's where future investment needs to lie - it can't serve all 3 roles optimally. An express train and upgrades to prove direct ROW are definitely needed. Combined with local streetcar and bus rapid transit, I think there'd be as good a system in place as possible without commuter rail.

I hope BRT in Tempe is designed as a real example to other cities on implementing it. I don't think they've discussed design - but, it's a 1-time chance to make Rural into a complete street, while continuing to show that it's the leader in Valley transit. This means a raised median for pedestrian platforms, dedicated BRT only lanes, with at least a change in grade from normal traffic if 2 medians can't fit. Because of course, beyond the vehicle lanes would be landscaped medians with real, functional, urban, desert shade. I'm never sure which routes are suited for bike lanes, but if Rural is one, it would have to go between the median and sidewalk.

Anyway, Tempe with excellent BRT connected to Chandler, a neighborhood streetcar connecting both bus and light rail, while providing easier access to downtown amenities, would be pretty great, and the Gilberts of AZ can look at the similarities between our light rail and a true robust bus system, using BRT to connect employment centers (to park and rides for light rail where it works) and trolley/streetcar to connect some surrounding neighborhoods to their downtowns.

[turpentyne]

I hope that Metrocenter is as far as they go, and that they're winding down the other end's extentions as well. It's time to add completely new lines. The longer one line is, the less efficient it becomes.

Personally I think there should be a sideways U, along mcdowell for some distance, then turning north on a west side or east side street of importance, so it can come back along bethany or camelback.

(not exactly a researched idea, granted. But it would make my life better! (plus, easily extendable to Scottsdale when they get their heads out of their arses about adding light rail)

[turpentyne]

An opportunity to give input on a passenger rail line between Phoenix and Tucson:
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2014/05/07/phoenix-tucson-higher-speed-rail/8795533/

[N830MH]

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/scottsdale/2014/05/06/scottsdale-candidates-talk-light-rail/8732171/

Scottsdale city council to talks light-rail. Hopefully they will agrees and they will approved it. They will take via Loop 101 bypass Scottsdale Rd.

Let the speculation begin.

[Leo the Dog]

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/scottsdale/2014/05/06/scottsdale-candidates-talk-light-rail/8732171/

Scottsdale city council to talks light-rail. Hopefully they will agrees and they will approved it. They will take via Loop 101 bypass Scottsdale Rd.

Let the speculation begin.

Fail. LR built on Indian land with virtually zero population. Wouldn't receive federal grants.

LR belongs on Scottsdale Rd or Camelback, serving old town. Nobody will ride a commuter rail type hybrid along the 101 corridor that connects to basically a street car in Tempe.

[HooverDam]

As the train is built toward the west to hook up to the Rental Car Facility which the completion of is 6 years out I wonder if they have considered the opportunity of having a stop at the Greyhound Bus Terminal? Seems like a natural to me. People coming in by Bus from out- lining areas connecting to Air Travel and vice a versa. Any thoughts anyone?

That seems sensible. However, I'd rather we not invest in the Greyhoud terminal at that location long term. It makes more sense to me to move the Greyhound Station to connect to historic Union Station. Having bus, circulators, Greyhounds, Commuter Rail, InterCity rail, Light Rail, etc. all meeting together at one truly Union Station would be ideal.

Fail. LR built on Indian land with virtually zero population. Wouldn't receive federal grants.

LR belongs on Scottsdale Rd or Camelback, serving old town. Nobody will ride a commuter rail type hybrid along the 101 corridor that connects to basically a street car in Tempe.

That idea is moronic as you outlined. Also the article fails to mention that Council Candidate Kathy Littlefield is current Scottsdale Councilman Littlefield's wife. Littlefield is a long time anti LRT loonie.

I once met him and said (to get a rise out of him) "I can't wait to ride the light rail to Old Town one day" and he exploded "over my dead body!" I wanted to say, but held in, "well, that won't be too long anyhow."

[exit2lef]

Also the article fails to mention that Council Candidate Kathy Littlefield is current Scottsdale Councilman Littlefield's wife. Littlefield is a long time anti LRT loonie.

I once met him and said (to get a rise out of him) "I can't wait to ride the light rail to Old Town one day" and he exploded "over my dead body!" I wanted to say, but held in, "well, that won't be too long anyhow."

I missed that detail and thought it was just Bob Littlefield ranting against rail once again. I guess since he's now running for state legislature, his wife wants to keep the anti-rail, anti-density agenda alive in the Scottsdale City Council. My biggest fear is that Bob Littlefield is successful in seeking a seat in the AZ House of Representatives and then uses that position to introduce legislation that would make it difficult for Scottsdale to build light rail even if the mayor and council support it. There are enough Agenda 21 conspiracy theorists in the legislature right now that such a bill might just stand a chance -- just as the Tennessee state legislature recently took action to block a BRT project in Nashville.

[Wizened Variations]

I was so bummed when I read this. We have nothing like this on the drawing board. Our attempt at revitalizing Central Station is bush-league and on top of that, we don't even have passenger rail coming into the Valley at all. :hell:

Here's a sneak peek at the Denver Union Station transit hub
http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/blog/earth_to_power/2014/04/rtd-gives-sneak-peak-at-denver-union-station.html?ana=e_vert&u=34892844144f674e291dd986763848&t=1398698430&page=all

To show you how bad the situation in Phoenix is, one has to envy Denver's transportation hub! By world standards Denver's hub is a tragic, minimal solution, geared to real estate development within a very small area, that profited a few property developers, at the expense of public need. A huge empty space has been built up in a manner such that the hub is almost impossible to transfer THROUGH in a timely manner. Times to transfer through the hub between suburban locations and from suburban locations to the airport line render using the system for such needs practically useless. In addition, real estate developers have hemmed the transportation complex in, in such a manner than future capacity increases will cost many billions of dollars to implement.*

Those of you in Phoenix and other US cities need to study Denver's transportation solutions as much for failure as success.

*Any scenario where a additional 3 to 5% of Denver's metropolitan population HAVE to use the light rail and commuter system will result in a third world public transportation environment as usage saturation would be reached long before increased throughput could be implemented.

[Leo the Dog]

To show you how bad the situation in Phoenix is, one has to envy Denver's transportation hub! By world standards Denver's hub is a tragic, minimal solution, geared to real estate development within a very small area, that profited a few property developers, at the expense of public need. A huge empty space has been built up in a manner such that the hub is almost impossible to transfer THROUGH in a timely manner. Times to transfer through the hub between suburban locations and from suburban locations to the airport line render using the system for such needs practically useless. In addition, real estate developers have hemmed the transportation complex in, in such a manner than future capacity increases will cost many billions of dollars to implement.*

Those of you in Phoenix and other US cities need to study Denver's transportation solutions as much for failure as success.

*Any scenario where a additional 3 to 5% of Denver's metropolitan population HAVE to use the light rail and commuter system will result in a third world public transportation environment as usage saturation would be reached long before increased throughput could be implemented.

I've read many of your posts across many sub-forums and agree with just about everything you have posted. I find your thoughts about transportation well thought out, informative and interesting.

With that said, Phoenix doesn't even have a Denver style transportation hub on the long range drawing board. In your opinion, what should Phoenix do/consider/plan when it comes to public transportation? (With the city landscape that is Phoenix kept in mind of course.)

[Wizened Variations]

I've read many of your posts across many sub-forums and agree with just about everything you have posted. I find your thoughts about transportation well thought out, informative and interesting.

With that said, Phoenix doesn't even have a Denver style transportation hub on the long range drawing board. In your opinion, what should Phoenix do/consider/plan when it comes to public transportation? (With the city landscape that is Phoenix kept in mind of course.)

I am, hesitantly, optimistic about Phoenix and public transportation for one important reason: Phoenix, based upon timing, has the opportunity to improve on what other cities have done. More importantly, the growing Phoenix transportation thought pool (you guys are part of that), have a large case study base to learn from.

IMO, Phoenix should throw most out most of what has been built in the US since the tragically brilliant BART, and, look at moving people differently. This difference is not technological, as advanced technologies can be laid out poorly, but in routing, station layout, and, design.

Average speeds on central corridor type spines need to be at least 40 mph, and, in a sprawl city like Phoenix, at least 60 mph. This involves using very well understood concepts such as using 4 track stations where possible to enable trains to pass that travel in the same direction, wide radii turns, high speed switching, and, little or no street running for primary corridors. Express trains, worldwide, work very well.

Prevent any railroad right-of-way from being broken into pieces. Old rail right of way, whether new tracks are laid parallel to freight tracks, or if new tracks are laid and freight tracks scrapped is the cheapest way to provide transit systems the opportunity (again if designed well) to have fast average speeds. Without a good right of way, while passing stations adds to average speeds, average speeds will be low.

Do not compromise with those that say X minutes travel time is OK. Rather work backwards from average speed, and, resist whatever compromise to lowering average speed that you can.

Downtown, fight any large scale rail yard projects that do not provide same seat boarding through downtown, and, platform to platform transfers. This, based upon my experience, is extremely difficult to do, because moneyed interests tend not to give a s*** about ultimate users, and cares only about funneling in riders to new property developments. This RUINS public transportation long term, and, IMO, only will result in building more freeways and increasingly rider packed slow running transit vehicles running above capacity.

Above all, remain involved, and, try the best that you can to avoid being sold out to those moneyed interests that you will hate yourselves someday for embracing.

Good luck.

[Leo the Dog]

Wizened, Thanks for the reply.

I also believe that Phoenix has extreme potential to evolve into something on par to our other world class cities of the US.

[Jjs5056]

Wizened, Thanks for the reply.

I also believe that Phoenix has extreme potential to evolve into something on par to our other world class cities of the US.

How do you see that happening, though, when all our leaders seem to focus on is a system that has already been built broken per the standards just outlined? That's an honest question. It seems like we can't move past light rail and by the time all of the extensions are complete, we'll have a huge line that acts as a streetcar in some places (the starter line) to a make-shift commuter line in others (any line that goes along a freeway ROW).

Had the starter line been built correctly - and I realize just getting it was a win - with higher speeds, dedicated ROWs and an express line, I think it'd be fine to spend years planning out a valley-wide system. But, don't you think commuter rail has slipped too far off the radar in the meantime?

[Wizened Variations]

How do you see that happening, though, when all our leaders seem to focus on is a system that has already been built broken per the standards just outlined? That's an honest question. It seems like we can't move past light rail and by the time all of the extensions are complete, we'll have a huge line that acts as a streetcar in some places (the starter line) to a make-shift commuter line in others (any line that goes along a freeway ROW).

Had the starter line been built correctly - and I realize just getting it was a win - with higher speeds, dedicated ROWs and an express line, I think it'd be fine to spend years planning out a valley-wide system. But, don't you think commuter rail has slipped too far off the radar in the meantime?

I may raise a few hairs, here, but the Phoenix starert system consists of the worst parts of a mediocre system like the Twin Cities have. The best thing that Phoenix could do, is not build off of the existing system. Instead, build very fast commuter lines (preferably with the reduced crash standards being considered in DC) and get people from 20 or more miles out, downtown quickly. Then hook the Phoenix trolley into a very fast commuter line at multiple points.

The starter system is a minimalist solution to attempt to develop properties along the route, rather than a rail spine of any particular value.

[PHX31]

/\ Can you further explain what a rail spine of value would be then?

Seems like linking downtown phoenix to downtown tempe, linking ASU DT Phoenix campus/Tempe Main campus, the airport (not 100% perfect connection to the airport, but close enough and made better by the people mover system), and basically taking over for the old Red bus line, the busiest in the system, is a pretty good starter system/spine.

[Wizened Variations]

/\ Can you further explain what a rail spine of value would be then?

Seems like linking downtown phoenix to downtown tempe, linking ASU DT Phoenix campus/Tempe Main campus, the airport (not 100% perfect connection to the airport, but close enough and made better by the people mover system), and basically taking over for the old Red bus line, the busiest in the system, is a pretty good starter system/spine.

There are only two or three real cool places for high speed spines in Phoenix. The first is the rail line that US 60, the Phoenix-Wickenburg Hwy lies parallel to. Almost straight as an arrow in the northwest quadrant right into downtown. This right-of-way with a lot of work and political muscle could, IMO, be made to run 120 mph (~200 kph)CTC trains rather easily. The second is the UP line (formally the SP line that feeds into downtown from the West, that runs south of and parallels much of I-10. The right of way is remarkably straight for quite a distance west. Lastly, the former SP line that runs east of downtown then turns south.

These are Phoenix's best options for HSCL (high speed commuter lines). Along similar right-of-way in Japan, trains routinely travel 250 km/hr (155 mph) or more.

Of course, getting the rail roads to work with the metropolitan area would be very difficult, but, regardless these are where world class type commuter lines could be placed.

The only other alternative is to run the lines along interstate 10 and 17 which would be horribly expensive waste of money.

If I were a Phoenix billionaire that cared about the city, this is what I would push. Three lines with very high average speeds, say 60 mph or more (100 kph average speed or higher.) Hook the light rail into spines like this, preferably in some ring type of configuration like Phoenix beltways feed into I-10 and I-17.

[Classical in Phoenix]

Interesting read on street design.

http://www.citylab.com/politics/2014/05/fire-departments-are-standing-in-the-way-of-good-street-design/371200/

[Jjs5056]

/\ Can you further explain what a rail spine of value would be then?

Seems like linking downtown phoenix to downtown tempe, linking ASU DT Phoenix campus/Tempe Main campus, the airport (not 100% perfect connection to the airport, but close enough and made better by the people mover system), and basically taking over for the old Red bus line, the busiest in the system, is a pretty good starter system/spine.

Don't you think some of the massively planned system would be better served by infrastructure that included express lines, dedicated ROWs, and higher speeds?

If commuter rail were to happen by 2025, I'd say this current approach is fine. But, between this and the Tucson project, AZ keeps creating hybrid lines which I don't think is sound planning; streetcar, light rail, commuter service... All have different needs and objectives. That's why it's encouraging to hear cities talk streetcar and BRT. I wish those conversations were being done in tandem with light rail planning, though.

I think I've asked this before and heard 'no' - but, the original line can't be retrofitted in any way, can it? Could it at least receive light priority 100% of the way? And, given that an additional track is unlikely, is there precedent for running express trains only during peak hours? Say, 6am-9am and 4pm-7pm, limiting service to many of the Apache and VB/Washington stops?

[PHX31]

/\ I'm pretty sure it already gets priority at all traffic signals. It gets pretty complicated how it works, but just because a light rail train gets stopped at a red light, doesn't mean it doesn't have priority. It's likely just that it happened upon an intersection that still needed time to have the other phase(s) cleared out before given the green.

As far as your first question goes, yes, i think it would be better served if it could have been located within dedicated ROWs, etc., but with how our young-ish city is laid out with our grid, it's not really possible. We didn't/don't have much in the way of "back-alleys", old abandoned rail corridors, or even natural land features (not to mention unlimited funding for other "better" options) that we could align the train down that would still serve good purpose for the city. As it is, I think the starter line is a good starter "spine" for what our system is planned to become at this point. Higher speed corridors, express lines, etc. could be like the arms that feed into this spine, if that ever is a possibility, and I hope it is possible some day.

The talk about having one central hub (like Union Station) where light rail, higher speed commuter rail, street cars, BRT, longer distance rail and bus lines, etc. converge would be the best and most ultimate, but that's out of the realm of possibility right now, so it seems.

[Wizened Variations]

/\ I'm pretty sure it already gets priority at all traffic signals. It gets pretty complicated how it works, but just because a light rail train gets stopped at a red light, doesn't mean it doesn't have priority. It's likely just that it happened upon an intersection that still needed time to have the other phase(s) cleared out before given the green.

As far as your first question goes, yes, i think it would be better served if it could have been located within dedicated ROWs, etc., but with how our young-ish city is laid out with our grid, it's not really possible. We didn't/don't have much in the way of "back-alleys", old abandoned rail corridors, or even natural land features (not to mention unlimited funding for other "better" options) that we could align the train down that would still serve good purpose for the city. As it is, I think the starter line is a good starter "spine" for what our system is planned to become at this point. Higher speed corridors, express lines, etc. could be like the arms that feed into this spine, if that ever is a possibility, and I hope it is possible some day.

The talk about having one central hub (like Union Station) where light rail, higher speed commuter rail, street cars, BRT, longer distance rail and bus lines, etc. converge would be the best and most ultimate, but that's out of the realm of possibility right now, so it seems.

The basic problem, IMO, is what is your LRT system designed for? A street running light rail systems have slow average speeds (generally around 15 mph* +/-) including stops), 30 minute travel distances cover about 7.5 or so miles. Because of this street running, IMO,t LRTs often are conceived as a system that connects local functions set maybe one mile or so apart, and connected by rail into a "necklace" of functions. In addition, between local venues that exist, property developers will tend to build 4 and 5 story stick wall apartments near stations, and, sell this as an urban life style.

This will prevent the light rail from ever becoming an efficient commuter system, as unless speeds can be increased commuter traffic loads will remain low.

I need to bring up Denver's LRT to illustrate how a good US class A (world class C) light rail system is laid out.

The trick in Denver has to do with one line that runs parallel to rails from Broadway Station to Colfax (Corridor Line). This segment, even without express service, has the fastest system speeds of any light rail segment, with average speeds approaching 30 mph over about 4 miles.

This line segment acts as the spine for the entire light rail system that exists outside of the I-225 lines, which (will) serve(s) as a 20mph north-east bypass to Union Station. (This is the east side of a to be completed 90 minute travel time loop.)

In the entire light rail system when built out, there will be about 8 miles of street level running and perhaps 60 miles of dedicated right-of-way.

Only about 13 miles of LRT dedicated right-of-way runs parallel to active rail lines, and the balance runs (and will run) down the center of, or to the side of Interstates.

And this is for a grade C LRT on a worldwide basis.

**********
Phoenix needs to develop a better solution than cities like Denver have done, which from a theoretical standpoint could easily be accomplished with a pad and pencil over a few beers, but, bringing something world class to Phoenix would be a long term grind.

Good luck.

*12mph seems to be a common average speed with street running in higher traffic areas.

[Classical in Phoenix]

Interesting parking concept.

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2014/05/a-new-parking-app-thats-virtually-guaranteed-to-stir-up-controversy/371268/

[Jjs5056]

/\ I'm pretty sure it already gets priority at all traffic signals. It gets pretty complicated how it works, but just because a light rail train gets stopped at a red light, doesn't mean it doesn't have priority. It's likely just that it happened upon an intersection that still needed time to have the other phase(s) cleared out before given the green. &

As far as your first question goes, yes, i think it would be better served if it could have been located within dedicated ROWs, etc., but with how our young-ish city is laid out with our grid, it's not really possible. We didn't/don't have much in the way of "back-alleys", old abandoned rail corridors, or even natural land features (not to mention unlimited funding for other "better" options) that we could align the train down that would still serve good purpose for the city. As itis, I think the starter line is a good starter "spine" for what our system is planned to become at this point. Higher speed corridors, express lines, etc. could be like the arms that feed into this spine, if that ever is a pomessibility,e and I hope it is possible some day. mm

The talk about having one central hub (like Union Station) where light rail, higher speed commuter rail, street cars, BRT, longer distance rail and bus lines, etc. converge would be the best and most ultimate, but that's out of the realm of possibility right now, so it seems.

Sure, I agree the starter line is a good "spine." I just think it's more important to design/modify that spine to perform to optimal standards, rather than spend funding on additions is all. To me, adding an express train is the most import project they could tackle after the Capitol Mall and Mess extensions are complete, and maybe part of the NW. Tempe, Chandler, Gilbert, Glendale, etc. can build streetcar/BRT to move their community to their downtowns and to park and rides, while a more intensive focus is placed on commuter rail planning.

[Wizened Variations]

Sure, I agree the starter line is a good "spine." I just think it's more important to design/modify that spine to perform to optimal standards, rather than spend funding on additions is all. To me, adding an express train is the most import project they could tackle after the Capitol Mall and Mess extensions are complete, and maybe part of the NW. Tempe, Chandler, Gilbert, Glendale, etc. can build streetcar/BRT to move their community to their downtowns and to park and rides, while a more intensive focus is placed on commuter rail planning.

You hit the nail on the head!

Express trains (and buses) are a key to good public transportation systems. However, no express capable LRTs or commuter lines with frequent service have been built since WWII in the US. Overseas, hundreds of express capable LRT like systems have been built or older systems modified to permit express running.

While this seems wildly illogical, our local only LRT systems are built the way they are because of a mix of local politics and local money, combined with an apparent unwillingness to study the best practices of the rest of the world.

"Almost street running" expresses are doable with absolute computer controls and an educated car, bus, and, truck driver population. LRTs running down dedicated medians with rubber tired street intersections is doable with intersected streets being one way; coordinated traffic light signaling and LRT movement in real time; good railroad crossing gates, and same direction passing at select train stations.

Granted this is more expensive that local only running without dedicated right of way between rubber tired vehicle intersections, but, IMO, is far cheaper than using condemnation to gain right of way through built up areas. The extra expense required to prevent riders from crossing run through tracks takes extra money, but in areas without snow :yes:, could be done with pedestrian crossing gates.*

Remember, unlike so much orthodox objection to express service on LRT lines, LRTs (and street cars) can have same direction passing if the train schedule is flexible. Local trains can be scheduled in 5 or 7 minute windows, where the published time is the EARLIEST time that a given local would arrive at station X.

*Snow changes this, as snowy cities, IMO, have to use over or under track pedestrian walkways, due to potential mechanical problems and the increased chance of riders falling while crossing tracks.

[Classical in Phoenix]

Interesting Data on Park and Ride.

http://www.citylab.com/cityfixer/2014/06/the-case-for-tearing-down-park-and-ride-lots/372558/

[MegaBass]

Tempe's streetcar gets a new route (http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2014/06/18/tempes-streetcar-gets-new-route/10723817/)

Valley Metro and the city of Tempe are lengthening their proposed route for a new streetcar system, and adding to the project's estimated cost, in a bid to woo federal transit dollars after seven years of courtship.

Last week, Valley Metro revealed the proposed changes, which would cause more delays and increase the system's projected $130 million cost to $175 million to $190 million.

Steve Banta and Wulf Grote of Valley Metro, updating officials at a Thursday Tempe City Council study session, said the latest route would add 0.4 mile to the line, for a total of 3 miles, to rate better with federal transit officials, who are being counted on for a portion of the funding.

The council gave its consent to the recommendation, although several members expressed concern that time could run out on Tempe's claim to $73 million in local funds.

Tempe Councilwoman Shana Ellis said that the regional transit board has programmed funding for the project from Proposition 400, a countywide measure passed by voters in 2004 that created a half-percent sales tax.

"This is Tempe's last opportunity for a project that is in the regional transportation plan," she said. "If this project doesn't go forward, that money goes to another community."

Ellis was among several council members who signaled that if seeking the federal grant continued to cause delays, the city would consider building just the downtown loop with the $73 million it has now.

Tempe also is counting on federal grants. Valley Metro had been seeking about $56 million in federal grants. Grote suggested Tempe now seek more federal funding. The cap for the grant is $75 million.

"That still leaves a gap of somewhere between $25 and $40 million," Grote said of the expanded route.

Banta said Valley Metro officials would seek public-private partnerships and engineering-and-design savings as options to bridge the gap.

Annual operating costs also would increase, to $3 million to $4 million, because of the added length.

Tempe's streetcar romance started in 2007.

The city envisioned building a rail-based system that would make it easier to get to downtown Tempe and attract redevelopment akin to the hefty economic investment seen in cities such as Portland and Seattle that banked on streetcars in their urban core. Plans have been derailed time and again amid the competition for limited federal transit grants.

The latest proposal is a combination of two routes that were under review for the past year.

The new 3-mile rail line would run from a Tempe light-rail station on Apache Boulevard at Dorsey Lane west toward Mill Avenue. At Mill, it would run north to Rio Salado Parkway, then east past Tempe Town Lake toward the Marina Heights development just west of Rural Road. The route also would include a 1-mile leg that loops downtown Tempe on Mill and Ash avenues.

Valley Metro's route recommendation was expected last fall, following community meetings.

Valley Metro officials would not comment on the reason for the delay. They said they were working with Tempe transit officials to review two routes and determine which one would give the city the best chance to secure federal funding and meet the community's needs.

"It was really time for us to have an update as to what was going on," Tempe Councilwoman Robin Arredondo-Savage said.

Construction of the system originally was scheduled to start in 2013 and be completed by 2016. Last year, after the Federal Transit Administration rejected the original route. Valley Metro officials set a new completion date of 2017.

The original route, which would have snaked through downtown Tempe and traveled south on Mill to neighborhoods along Southern Avenue, rated well in economic-development opportunities but fell short in ratings for cost-effectiveness, population and density of development.

The project's new timeline is 2018.

Valley Metro had proposed keeping any new routes close in length to the original 2.6-mile route to prevent construction costs from increasing. But Grote said that in recent weeks officials realized that combining the routes would make the project more attractive to the FTA.

"We're really marrying the best of both worlds into one alternative. Of course, that comes with a cost," Grote said. "The two alternatives that we were looking at before were each around $150 million. When you combine the two we're in the range of $175 to $190 million."

The next steps involve Valley Metro sharing the reconfigured route with the community. The route must be approved by regional transit boards.

Grote said Valley Metro plans to meet with federal transit officials this summer to seek a preliminary rating on the project.

"We haven't been able to get a rating from them on this project yet because we've had too many alternatives."

[HooverDam]

I still don't understand the "loop" on Mill and Ash. Why mess with Mill? Its perfect. Put the Streetcar going 2 directions on Ash, and that gives you the hope Ash will see new development and the garages will be wrapped in street fronting liner buildings, then you've got 2 awesome streets instead of 2. Splitting the line up seems unnecessarily confusing for riders and I don't quite get what the upside is supposed to be.

[Jjs5056]

The 'loop' is essentially a backup so that the streetcar can run when Mill closes down for certain events. Otherwise, the only other way it would be beneficial is if it means only one lane of track on Mill (agreed, why mess with the best streetscape in AZ?), and if it stimulates growth on Ash. But, Ash is right there and in the center of development... if it hasn't become more than a parking lot by now, I don't know if a streetcar line changes that.

I can't believe they took this long to come up with the combined route, which cannibalizes light rail ridership, serves few - if any - new residents, and is a tour of the areas already being developed: Apache, Mill, Rio Salado.

Connecting to various employment/recreation centers should have been more of a priority than giving ASU students a 2nd form of transportation on Friday nights, or showing off Marina Heights; with those garages, nobody is taking public transit.

I don't know what was wrong with the Southern version, if it had been able to reach the Museum and Library. Mill, University, Broadway and Southern have plenty of redevelopment opportunities for higher densities, along with established neighborhoods on the interior that would be connected to the greater transportation network.

[Wizened Variations]

The 'loop' is essentially a backup so that the streetcar can run when Mill closes down for certain events. Otherwise, the only other way it would be beneficial is if it means only one lane of track on Mill (agreed, why mess with the best streetscape in AZ?), and if it stimulates growth on Ash. But, Ash is right there and in the center of development... if it hasn't become more than a parking lot by now, I don't know if a streetcar line changes that.

I can't believe they took this long to come up with the combined route, which cannibalizes light rail ridership, serves few - if any - new residents, and is a tour of the areas already being developed: Apache, Mill, Rio Salado.

Connecting to various employment/recreation centers should have been more of a priority than giving ASU students a 2nd form of transportation on Friday nights, or showing off Marina Heights; with those garages, nobody is taking public transit.

I don't know what was wrong with the Southern version, if it had been able to reach the Museum and Library. Mill, University, Broadway and Southern have plenty of redevelopment opportunities for higher densities, along with established neighborhoods on the interior that would be connected to the greater transportation network.

I suspect this is a very localized property development play. The point is more to increase perceived value than to serve public need. This, possibly, might also relate to increasing fresh water and waste water piping under the street, too.

[N830MH]

Tempe's streetcar gets a new route (http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2014/06/18/tempes-streetcar-gets-new-route/10723817/)

I don't understand it. What's going on there? Why they want to changes the routes? They want to extend the routes? How could be happens? They want to another 0.4 miles from the current routes.

[Tempe_Duck]

Not sure if this should be here or the general page but I figured you would all like this.


http://gizmodo.com/wile-away-your-friday-by-designing-your-own-fantasy-tra-1593813740

http://www.transitmix.net/

[downtownslcresident]

I'd love to see a map of what locals in Phoenix would like to see as a dream light rail / commuter rail transit system in the phoenix metro area. Currently, there is one line ruinning from Mesa to Central Phoenix. If you had 5 billion dollars to do a massive light rail / commuter rail expansion in the metro similar to what SLC had in their Frontlines 2015 project...what would you want to see the system evolve into (in addition to any projects currently under construction)?

Anyone want to draw up a map and come up with some ideas? I'd love to see them! And hopefull this gets some discussion going on this thread! It's been terribly dull lately!

[dtnphx]

I'd love to see a map of what locals in Phoenix would like to see as a dream light rail / commuter rail transit system in the phoenix metro area. Currently, there is one line ruinning from Mesa to Central Phoenix. If you had 5 billion dollars to do a massive light rail / commuter rail expansion in the metro similar to what SLC had in their Frontlines 2015 project...what would you want to see the system evolve into (in addition to any projects currently under construction)?

Anyone want to draw up a map and come up with some ideas? I'd love to see them! And hopefull this gets some discussion going on this thread! It's been terribly dull lately!

If I were in charge of 5 billion dollars for a rail project, the first thing I would do is skim money off the top and head for the coast. :runaway:

[combusean]

I made this a while ago (2011), but it costs a lot more than $5 billion, and it includes statewide heavy rail as well. It maps tracks, not routes. Red was supposed to be light rail, blue was supposed to be streetcar, brown was supposed to be heavy/passenger rail.

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=214094587496373080626.0004812da2be8c109b187&msa=0&hl=en&dg=feature

[downtownslcresident]

I made this a while ago (2011), but it costs a lot more than $5 billion, and it includes statewide heavy rail as well. It maps tracks, not routes. Red was supposed to be light rail, blue was supposed to be streetcar, brown was supposed to be heavy/passenger rail.

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=214094587496373080626.0004812da2be8c109b187&msa=0&hl=en&dg=feature

thats an awesome proposal! very extensive. im very interested to know your reasoning for some of the options you chose though. for example....some of the things you identified as good streetcar alternatives are things that i might have thought light rail would be more appropriate(like how there are some streetcar options parallel to the freeways (101 in chandler)...with the idea being streetcars are typically used for more local service than light rail alternatives.) additionally, i would have expected to see more direct heavy rail passenger service from for example phoenix directly to flagstaff, and perhaps a streetcar or bus used as an alternitive to heavy rail spurs that you have done into places like florence.

:) altogether though, very extensive and great ideas! What an awesome system that would be.

I do have to say though that I wish it were more practical to do more of a subway type system in phoenix though. unfortunately, light rail in the center medians of the street definitely slow the train down to the point that it is easier to just get in the car. So I really did like the tunnel propsal on camelback from the 51 to fashion square.

[combusean]

I don't know what any of my reasoning was, it was to connect destinations. In retrospect, the distinction was made arbitrarily. A rail connection to Flagstaff via I-17 is virtually impossible given the lack of ROW and terrain.

[N830MH]

I made this a while ago (2011), but it costs a lot more than $5 billion, and it includes statewide heavy rail as well. It maps tracks, not routes. Red was supposed to be light rail, blue was supposed to be streetcar, brown was supposed to be heavy/passenger rail.

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=214094587496373080626.0004812da2be8c109b187&msa=0&hl=en&dg=feature

You made it yourself? How? I knows that they didn't go north on Tatum Blvd to Deer Valley Rd and then turn right on Deer Valley Rd to CityNorth? You didn't do it. It would be much easier to get there. Those people who want go to Desert Ridge Marketplace or CityNorth.

[combusean]

Google lets you edit and save your own maps with My Maps. Other than that, please don't actually assume I care that much or can argue positions about a map I made three years ago for a state I don't live in anymore and was much less politically jaded then anyways. It's pointless to argue about whether destinations would be served better if the lines were drawn this way precisely due to the fact that this map has $0.00 of funding behind it and I carry 0 weight with transit planners. I'd pay more attention to the stuff those folks put out, like the high capacity transit corridors in the Prop 400 updates MAG makes.

[nickw252]

Construction is well underway on the NW extension and rails have been delivered.

http://i62.tinypic.com/saz5ew.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/95ziuu.jpg

[N830MH]

You can follow the Metro Light Rail construction page. You can check it out on Facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/METROrailConstruction?ref=br_tf

Go for it!

[N830MH]

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2014/07/11/12new-north-phoenix-light-rail-extension/12506497/

The news is waiting for!

Metro light rail has already resume construction on 19th Ave extension from Montebello Ave to Glendale Ave, Northern Ave, and Dunlap Ave, as well. It will be finished constructioin sometime in early 2016 or so.

This will be first track installed by tomorrow morning at 7am to 10am.

"This is the latest extension, the 3.2 mile stretch which will go from Montebello, which is just south of Bethany Home Road, to Dunlap," said 5th District Phoenix City Councilman Daniel Valenzuela.

[CrestedSaguaro]

ADOT Goes P3 for $1.8B Single Project South Mountain Freeway
Posted by Matthew Roy on Aug 4th, 2014 // No Comment

By Eric Jay Toll for Arizona Builder’s Exchange

Six weeks. That’s the timeline set by the Arizona Department of Transportation for interested public-private partners to submit a proposal to join with ADOT, Maricopa Association of Governments and the Federal Highway Administration to “get it done.”

ADOT announced July 30 that after a year of assessment, it’s going P3 and building the Loop 202 South Mountain Freeway as a single project. The partners’ approach is slightly different than that proposed by South Mountain Development Group (SMDG) last year (AZBEX, Jul. 26, 2013).

Design-Build-Maintain

It’s another first—ADOT is looking for private partners to build the long-anticipated freeway connecting Interstate 10 in southwest Phoenix with I-10 and Loop 202 in Chandler. The $1.8B project will be a design-build-maintain delivery method.

Last July, SMDG—a joint venture of Kiewit Development Co., Kiewit Infrastructure West Co., Sundt Construction, Inc. and Parsons Corporation—proposed building the 23-mile segment of Loop 202 around South Mountain Preserve. The first-ever unsolicited proposal caught ADOT by surprise. SMDG proposed to design, build and finance the freeway.

ADOT exercised its option to take all or any portion of the proposal, and is not including the financing provision. Instead, the agency is seeking a proposal that has the private partner maintaining the roadway system after building it.

Open Bidding Process Begins

Deploying its standard procedures for unsolicited proposals, ADOT reviewed SMDG’s proposal in detail. ADOT has compiled what it likes from the P3 proposal, and is now opening the process to other bidders.

The department used a “value for money” approach, and the partner public agencies determined that the design-build-maintain approach returns the best value for Arizona taxpayers.

A Request for Qualifications inviting other firms or joint venture partners to be considered for the project is slated to go out as soon as the FEIS is certified in mid- to late-September.

The qualifications will be due six weeks after the RFQ hits the street. ADOT says it will take a month to review qualifications and a shortlist will be created for the P3 contract.

This review is totally separate from and unaffected by the federal Final Environmental Impact Statement review currently underway (AZBEX, Feb. 7). Unless the environmental review says the “no build” alternative is approved—ADOT has determined it will proceed with the P3 delivery.

http://azbex.com/adot-goes-p3-for-1-8b-single-project-south-mountain-freeway/

[HooverDam]

^ Gosh I hope that thing dies finally. Maybe the news that they're having to go P3 means it won't happen. As a private developer, pitching in to help build the sprawl enabling freeway really changes ones balance sheets and I'm not sure if it will make sense for them or not.

[N830MH]

Isn't suppose to start construction new Loop 202 South Mountain Freeway? Haven't they gotten approved yet?

[CrestedSaguaro]

^ Gosh I hope that thing dies finally. Maybe the news that they're having to go P3 means it won't happen. As a private developer, pitching in to help build the sprawl enabling freeway really changes ones balance sheets and I'm not sure if it will make sense for them or not.


I hate the South Mountain Freeway proposal. I would say of the few things in Arizona that I don't like, this is number 1 on that list (number 2 is the 303 loop).

With the sprawl that the South 202 will promote and create, Phoenix would take a huge step backwards in any centralized urban progress it has actually made in recent years. Phoenix/Arizona/Maricopa need to focus more on LTR and CR at this point and continue it's advance with more urban development.

[HooverDam]

I hate the South Mountain Freeway proposal. I would say of the few things in Arizona that I don't like, this is number 1 on that list (number 2 is the 303 loop).

With the sprawl that the South 202 will promote and create, Phoenix would take a huge step backwards in any centralized urban progress it has actually made in recent years. Phoenix/Arizona/Maricopa need to focus more on LTR and CR at this point and continue it's advance with more urban development.

Its mind numbing when you realize that for the cost of the South Mountain 202 Freeway we could build Valley wide commuter rail, which would be a huge game changer for the Valley.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Its mind numbing when you realize that for the cost of the South Mountain 202 Freeway we could build Valley wide commuter rail, which would be a huge game changer for the Valley.


Indeed. That is a huge chunk of change for CR or LTR development. :shrug:

Also, a little side question. I noticed when riding my bike down Galvin through Papago Park Sunday night, that they have killed 1 lane of traffic in each direction through the Botanical Garrden roundabout and added a 1 lane wide green bike lanes. I can't find anything on other updates that may be happening to Galvin Parkway. Does anybody have any insight as to what else may be happening? Are they planning on removing 1 lane of traffic on all of Gavin through Papago Park?? If so, this would seriously be awesome and help bridge East and West Papago Park and get rid of the "freeway speed" traffic on Galvin.

*Edit. Stopped up Galvin after work and apparently the night plays tricks on the mind. Just standard green lane bike and car combination lanes. No lane removals. Darn.

[nickw252]

Amtrak Passenger Station


A restored Chicago, Burlington and Quincy Railroad dome car, The Silver Horizon (car #375), served as the Maricopa Amtrak station office until 2005, but proved unsuitable. It has since been replaced by the former Tucson, Arizona station building, a double-wide modular trailer coach train. Among other projects, the city is in the planning stages to build a new Amtrak passenger station on the 52-acre Estrella Gin site, Garvey Road west of State Route 347. Photo credit: wikipedia.com

Passenger train stations are not normally seen in the “new project” category. Maricopa is in early siting and civil engineering stages of relocating the passenger platform and shelter to the Estrella Gin property and a newly designed “traditional” train station. Railpros Inc. is handing the site and civil design on that project.

Once the siting work has been reviewed by Union Pacific Railroad and Amtrak, the city will move forward with solicitations for design and construction.

The station relocation is driven by Arizona Department of Transportation’s approval of the State Route 347 overpass in downtown Maricopa. The existing Amtrak station is potentially located under the overpass.

“Maricopa is the Amtrak station for greater Phoenix,” says Maricopa Economic Development Director Micah Miranda. “Right now, we have a platform and sun shelter. The site is in our heritage district and we’re hoping to see a traditionally-designed train station.”

The last new train station to be built in Arizona was Mesa’s Santa Fe depot in 1925.

http://azbex.com/19232/

I love that there is investment and development in passenger rail in AZ, however, I fear that it means that a return to Phoenix is now even less likely.

[HooverDam]

http://azbex.com/19232/

I love that there is investment and development in passenger rail in AZ, however, I fear that it means that a return to Phoenix is now even less likely.

Yah that seems like bad news for PHX. It also doesn't really make any sense. PHX--TUC Commuter rail is almost certainly not going to connect through Maricopa, so why put in an investment there? It'll be coming to Union Station in Downtown PHX (that's really the only place it can go), so AMTRAK and the City of Phoenix ought to be working together to get that property back from Sprint.

[combusean]

Sprint would love to sell the property. Amtrak won't come through tho--it requires rebuilding the Phoenix West Line from just east of Yuma to Palo Verde. Given the costs of hundreds of millions of dollars to bring back a service that was lightly used and has no solid plans for the future (eg, regular Phoenix - LA service), it's unlikely to happen.