Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments [Archive] - Page 17

PhxPavilion

Jan 12, 2009, 6:57 AM

Phx you must have never lived somewhere with elevated rail. It is not the be-all end-all, trust me. While I realize the Seattle monorail is more a ride than it is a form of transportation, it is (rather WAS...thanks NBA) used to move fans from the office area of downtown Seattle to the Key Arena. Stupid thing was always out of service. Flat tires on a monorail! On top of that, you had to walk through a mall and get to the top floor in order to board it. Not convenient. Sort of like the Las Vegas monorail that makes you walk through 50000sqft of casino before you can find the 2 escalators and the bridge that get you to where you can board.

You keep going on about heavy rail, I'm a proponent of monorail. I'm well aware of the differences between the two, I spent some time in New York next to an elevated subway platform and yes, it is loud and there is lots of vibration. I have also been right under the tracks as a train passed by in Vegas and that system is much, much quieter. I'm not sure what your point is when complaining about the setup regarding Seattle and Vegas, it all depends on how you design the system. The reason you have to walk through the casinos to get to the platforms in Vegas is the same reason you see all those pedestrian bridges making you walk through or up to casinos, to try and draw you in. They were purposely designed that way. As far as breaking down and maintenance, that applies to everything. Why do you think Metro built a huge maintenance facility for the LRT.

There are always delays on rail transit. The Chicago L was late more times than I could have imagined when I lived with my god parents. Here is a nice little recap of all of the major accidents they've had on the line. http://www.chicago-l.org/mishaps/misc2.html

Yes, but you see, you overlooked or didn't understand my point. I'm not arguing that there will always be zero delays, I'm arguing that with an elevated train and no interference from traffic and lights, you have much less of them as well as the ability to go much faster.

Your link has no relevance, heavy rail is not monorail, apples to oranges.

On top of that, elevators and escalators pose all sorts of problems and create barriers to ridership in a city new to public transit. While there are benefits (reduced stroller riders & the ability to enforce tickets with turnstiles) you get dark, seedy areas that breed crime. Also, unlike with light rail where the businesses along the line benefit and get better, I have yet to see an area where the stores right along the line (and especially under the line) don't turn into blighted areas. They get no exposure because riders can't see them. They get no sunlight so pedestrians don't go there. They are loud and intrusive.

I'm sorry but this is nonsense. Have you been to Disneyland? You have a great view of the theme part from the train and there is no more reason it will breed crime than the LRT, it does not block sunlight at all. Are you telling me all cities with towers are crime ridden? Towers block a hell of alot more light than any track would. We're not talking about a massive viaduct, maybe you should take another look at the tracks in Vegas.

Elevators and Escalators pose problems? Like what? Sure, they'll break down eventually but a little maintenance goes along way. You don't need escalators either, stairs work just as well and hey, people will get some exercise; it would do most Americans some good, myself included.

Sure, maglev would solve everything, except it has never been done on a small scale and, as far as I know, has never been elevated. I don't think the citizens of Phoenix want to fund a $100B science project. They already like to scream "We could have had 5600 buses for what we got light rail for!"

I'll agree with you here. As nice as maglev is in concept, it still has some kinks to be ironed out and is more suitable for long distances and high speeds. That said, there have been short tracks in the past with trains running as slow as 25 mph. I don't know if such technology would work for Phoenix but California is at least looking at it.

glynnjamin

Jan 12, 2009, 8:02 AM

As far as breaking down and maintenance, that applies to everything. Why do you think Metro built a huge maintenance facility for the LRT.

Except when there is a problem on monorail, you have 200 people stuck in mid-air with no way of getting them down. Fire breaks out on LRT, open the door, walk out. Fire breaks out on monorail and you get exactly what Seattle had - a nightmare. If LRT has an accident, we get off and get on a bus. If the tire blows on monorail, they have to get a cherry-picker to pull each of us out 1 by 1. Forget that!

Yes, but you see, you overlooked or didn't understand my point. I'm not arguing that there will always be zero delays, I'm arguing that with an elevated train and no interference from traffic and lights, you have much less of them as well as the ability to go much faster.

You really can't go that much faster. I mean, with the distance between stops at (average) 1/2 mile, the acceleration and deceleration rates keep both trains at around 30-40mph. It's not like in your car where you can gas it and slam on your breaks whenever you feel like - there is a lot of weight to move and the comfort of your passengers to consider. Of course, over long runs, yes, LRT could go faster but Metro could have also build barricades around the tracks in areas so that it could go faster as well. I've read they top out at 60mph.

Your link has no relevance, heavy rail is not monorail, apples to oranges.

You are the one you started talking about "elevated rail" and then you changed the definition of it to mean monorail. Check out Seattle's monorail wiki to see all of its accidents.

I'm sorry but this is nonsense. Have you been to Disneyland? You have a great view of the theme part from the train and there is no more reason it will breed crime than the LRT, it does not block sunlight at all. Are you telling me all cities with towers are crime ridden? Towers block a hell of alot more light than any track would. We're not talking about a massive viaduct, maybe you should take another look at the tracks in Vegas.

Disneyland is not a city. Stop using it as an example. Please, find me one decent place under Seattle's monorail track. It is parking lots and check cashing stores with the exception of the immediate station areas. I've walked the line multiple times (because the train was out after a game) and it is ghetto. Highrises won't build along the line because no one wants to have 3-6 valuable floors looking at a concrete track. This is the main reason why Seattle never expanded their rail.

Yes, all cities with towers are crime-ridden, actually. Some better than others, but it doesn't have anything to do with the sunlight. It has to do with density. But with regards to the rail, the space that sits under large structures typically breeds a bad element. Look at bridges, freeways, and elevated tracks. Almost all act as magnets for vagrants and crime. LRT is out in the open and so are the stations. Sitting at a LRT stop, I know that drivers can see me and I know that a cop could just drive by at any time. Sitting in an enclosed subway station or elevated rail stop, a patrolman basically has to be on duty at all times because there is really no risk of a passer-by.

Elevators and Escalators pose problems? Like what? Sure, they'll break down eventually but a little maintenance goes along way. You don't need escalators either, stairs work just as well and hey, people will get some exercise; it would do most Americans some good, myself included.

Yes, they pose a problem, it is called money. They are not free to build or to operate. On the other hand, street-level rail costs pennies compared to elevated rail. You have to make it ADA compliant.

Finally, you ignore the biggest point in all of this. Blocking views. An elevated track would have to be, at the VERY LEAST, 15ft higher than the street and, more likely, closer to 25ft. At that height, the number of homes that would lose their precious view would be enormous. Not that I care, but if you think back to the Trump tower on Camelback and remember the biggest argument was about heights and views. People moved here for their wide open spaces. That's why all the height restrictions exist. You don't get to ignore those just because you are building a rail.

PHX31

Jan 12, 2009, 3:06 PM

I rode the light rail this weekend to Tempe... I'm going to avoid it all together on the weekend (during the middle part of the day) until the joyriders leave.

From Encanto/Central all the way to Tempe it was packed, I had to reach over people just to hold on to a rail. In other places (like in downtown and heading into Tempe) it was busier than others, but the whole way was crazy.

I hate the joyriders with the kids (i'm OK with letting the kids have fun, but these three kids were really annoying). One lady's little boy kept pushing the red emergency button. When the driver would ask what the emergency was, the lady would just ignore the driver, or really quickly say "Nothing" (as if that's better than just saying, "sorry, it was my kid"). Eventually the driver came over the speakers in the entire train and told everyone that the red buttons aren't for playing or leaning on.

Maybe I was just annoyed with all this shit because I had a purpose to riding the train and I was late to the Sun Devil's bball game.

Plus, I guarantee you not everyone is buying tickets. Either they think it's always free, or the free weekend thing is still going on. A group of about 12 people being led by a real estate agent came to my platform to ride the train where I was waiting. I had just seen them walk down the street a couple minutes before they all annoyingly sat directly next to me. I doubt they had time to purchase 12 tickets in about 1 minute.

Vicelord John

Jan 12, 2009, 4:37 PM

Phx31, it was because of the harlem globetrotters. They had a reason as well.

glynnjamin

Jan 12, 2009, 6:03 PM

^or the motocross

or the bridal show

-to be fair, on Saturday when we got off at Main/Sycamore....about 1/2 the train stayed on.

Vicelord John

Jan 12, 2009, 6:42 PM

Oh and here is a good one. Some ex-cholo working as a metro clean up guy on the platform told me to get off the bumpy part, at whick time i kindly respinded fuck off i know how to not get hit by a train. He then said i have to have a ticket to be on the platform and i blew my top. I probably shouldnt have told him to go back to east la, and he probably was being just a little overzealous, but when is the ghestapo act by metro employees going to stop.

glynnjamin

Jan 12, 2009, 6:47 PM

Seems to me that they should spend more time handing out fines for people who smoke on the platform (a clear violation) and less harassing people who are standing 2ft from the edge or playing hackysack 20ft from the rail. There are plenty of problems with the way people are riding...most of them occur ON the train. But hey, someone is going to be run over by this thing...and then you will see the gestapo come out.

John, it could be worse. You could have been handcuffed, laying face down, and shot in the back of the head like they do in Oakland when you fuck around on the train.

RichTempe

Jan 12, 2009, 6:48 PM

Originally Posted by glynnjamin
Riding back, got to the Sycamore station in about 12 minutes. Crossed over (another side, does anyone else think that the X-walk there needs to be more frequent?) and waited 25 minutes for a train. It would seem to me that, at the end of the line, you should see a train every 10 minutes if you are supposed to see them every 20 throughout the rest of the track.

This was originally over in the Phoenix development thread, but I thought my comment would be more appropriate here.

Does anyone know how long it typically takes for a new LRT system to get its trains to run on a somewhat reliable schedule? I'm getting frustrated with the randomness that the trains seem to run and if it continues, I'm sure it will discourage some people from using it altogether. On Saturday I was supposed to meet my parents in Tempe for a movie and planned on taking the LRT from my stop at Central/Roosevelt. I got to the station at 2:30PM to catch the 2:37PM train and just missed an eastbound train. I don't know if this was the late 2:22PM train or an early 2:37PM train. Anyway, I waited until 3:00PM with no train and fianally got disgusted and drove instead. There were 3 westbound trains that went by on the other side during this time.

LRT isn't some ride at a theme park that people take for the hell of it (or at least some of them don't). If I didn't have a car or relied on it to get to work, I'd be pissed, especially since they've eliminated the Red Line bus that ran along some of the route. Valley Metro tested the trains for more than a month prior to opening and now they've been running for over 2 weeks and still no schedule consistency.

Sorry for the little rant, but for heaven's sake it shouldn't be rocket science to adhere to a schedule or at least deviate by only a few minutes.:(

glynnjamin

Jan 12, 2009, 8:43 PM

I think what we are seeing are the effects of having a 20-mile line. Most start out with just a few miles and are straight (at best). That way drivers get used to them without dealing with weird angular crossing gates and the line is easier to time.

We are talking about rolling this thing out over a huge area. Not only does it cover 3 cities but it covers just about every demographic you could think of: poor latinos, wealthy business types, gays, downtown yuppies, sports fans, airport travelers, tourists, college kids, LDS families, etc. All of these people use the rail for different things at different times. I think it will take much longer than any other rail system to get this one into some sort of managed schedule.

Of course, fixing the lights should be #1. Although, I should say that on my way out to Mesa and back from Mesa, the only lights we hit were in downtown Phoenix. Smooth and quick once we passed 24th St eastbound. I have an idea that it is pedestrians pushing the walk buttons that actually screws up the LRT priority. Seems like pedestrians have it over anything...EXCEPT at the damn X-walk between the Y and Central Station. I've had to jay-walk every single time to catch a train after waiting 5 minutes for the light.

Vicelord John

Jan 12, 2009, 10:16 PM

LDS families

I'm not going to discount the existence of any group at any location, but every mormon family I know refuses to get on any sort of public transportation.

arkhitektor

Jan 12, 2009, 11:31 PM

I'm not going to discount the existence of any group at any location, but every mormon family I know refuses to get on any sort of public transportation.

I'm certain that things are different in AZ than in Utah, but here there are actually a lot of LDS people that use public transit. This is partly because there is a larger pool of mormons from which to find some who are willing to use it, but also because the LDS church provides ECO-Passes to employees at its downtown headquarters and many of them use the train to get to work. I used to ride an express bus from the Davis Co. suburbs into the city and I would estimate that 75% of riders were church employees.

Also, as is the case with me, lots of mormons have been on LDS missions in larger US cities and places abroad where we've become accustomed to using public transit to get around. After two years of riding trains and busses daily in Russia, riding the train at home in Utah isn't as much of a stretch.

Oh, and as for trains being on schedule, give it time. When our new commuter rail line opened earlier this year, it took a good month and a half before things were consistantly on-time.

PHX31

Jan 12, 2009, 11:36 PM

Yeah, I worked with a mormon kid at my previous job. He'd actually ride the bus from central Tempe to north Scottsdale for work. It took him an hour or more, but he did it because he didn't have two cars (only one his wife used). He didn't mind it, and actually kind of liked it because he could listen in on a bunch of conversations in Spanish/Spanglish - due to his mission to Spain.

PhxPavilion

Jan 13, 2009, 2:25 AM

Of course, fixing the lights should be #1. Although, I should say that on my way out to Mesa and back from Mesa, the only lights we hit were in downtown Phoenix. Smooth and quick once we passed 24th St eastbound. I have an idea that it is pedestrians pushing the walk buttons that actually screws up the LRT priority. Seems like pedestrians have it over anything...EXCEPT at the damn X-walk between the Y and Central Station. I've had to jay-walk every single time to catch a train after waiting 5 minutes for the light.

There are no buttons for the walk signals downtown, it's all timed and the sensors for the trains don't activate until the train is a block away; this is why the lights are a problem.

As for your responses, again, it seems like you're trying desperately to find reasons to hate it. I brought up disneyland because I've been on that train and the views are just fine, despite your claims to the contrary. The biggest issue is cost, plain and simple, you don't hear about the trains catching fire in Vegas or Seattle every week because they don't. There aren't dirty hobos hiding under the tracks in Vegas waiting to stab you at every turn because it's not a cave with lots of places to hide. A small 10' wide track does not block any light nor does it block any views from 15' up. Some people find the system to be futuristic looking and hardly an eyesore. If it were as terrible as you make it out to be no one would build them and we wouldn't be getting an elevated people mover for the airport.

Hog wash, flim flam.

Vicelord John

Jan 13, 2009, 2:38 AM

As for your responses, again, it seems like you're trying desperately to find reasons to hate it.

seriously, its like he is this dog.

http://theducks.org/pictures/do-not-want-dog.jpg

Sonoran_Dweller

Jan 13, 2009, 2:49 AM

glynnjamin-

This afternoon I was standing at the train platform at the Tempe Transportation Center. A security guard yelled across the platform to someone on the other side who was smoking. He told him to get off the platform if he wanted to smoke, and said that no smoking is allowed on the platforms. That was the first time I actually saw something at a station indicating that the stations were smoke free. I don't know if the guy was a security guard for the TTC or if he was part of the group hired by Tempe/Mesa to do security for the trains/platforms. Well there you go glynnjamin, at least someone is trying to enforce the rules.

glynnjamin

Jan 13, 2009, 2:37 PM

There are no buttons for the walk signals downtown, it's all timed and the sensors for the trains don't activate until the train is a block away; this is why the lights are a problem.

Well then, I feel like an asshole. Here I've been hitting these silver buttons over and over again and expecting them to change the walk signal. Please, PhxPavilion, tell me what these buttons are for if there are no walk buttons downtown.

As for your responses, again, it seems like you're trying desperately to find reasons to hate it. I brought up disneyland because I've been on that train and the views are just fine, despite your claims to the contrary. The biggest issue is cost, plain and simple, you don't hear about the trains catching fire in Vegas or Seattle every week because they don't. There aren't dirty hobos hiding under the tracks in Vegas waiting to stab you at every turn because it's not a cave with lots of places to hide. A small 10' wide track does not block any light nor does it block any views from 15' up. Some people find the system to be futuristic looking and hardly an eyesore. If it were as terrible as you make it out to be no one would build them and we wouldn't be getting an elevated people mover for the airport.

I cannot believe, on an urban planning website, you are really using Disneyland as an example of the monorail working. Are you really saying that since there is no blight or homeless people under the monorail tracks in Disneyland that it will work? Every single other city that has monorail running through the actual city has killed businesses under the track. Simply put, Seattle already had monorail running since the 60's, they were given the opportunity to expand it into a full system, or go with LRT. They went with LRT. They are a city that knows what is good and what is bad about monorail and they realize that the cons outweigh the pros.

Monorails are great as shuttles. Their lesser capacity and expensive footprint makes them ideal for end-to-end runs and for stations that are elevated and integrated into buildings (like at airports). The reason we can construct elevated PM at the airport is because it is built only on airport land. There are no houses within at least a mile of there (41st, north of Van Buren). You can't throw up an elevated 8ft tall track, sitting on a 15ft support, that has a 10ft tall train riding on it in the middle of the suburbs. The people won't go for it.

The Las Vegas monorail exists in a complete vacuum from other cities. Giant plots of land are master developed into one casino. There are very few small, normal sized lots that run near the LV Monorail so there is no opportunity for the space under it to fail. That being said, the area under the tracks is always where the homeless sleep in LV because no one walks there.

Monorail would have been nice for a run from Camelback down to Jefferson via Central. Outside of that area, there are height restrictions that would have prevented monorail for being built. If you cannot expand the line, why build it?

glynnjamin

Jan 13, 2009, 2:40 PM

Vicelord John

Jan 13, 2009, 9:37 PM

this is how bored at work I am.

I had the idea that we should have short route trollies similar to what is offered in DT Portland, SF, etc. I think it should run a route that passes the highest concentration of population around the edges of the city. This would include Roosevelt Square, Artisan, Renaissance, Camden, Met, Alta, etc. and transport people to bars, restaurants, arenas, convention center, etc.

This would replace the dash bus and be approx. the same size. They would be solar electric powered in a perfect world, and would be able to share the light rails tracks in some areas, and also have its own rails w/o curb in other areas.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&ll=33.451853,-112.079773&spn=0.034016,0.054932&t=h&z=14&msid=109846939210660720787.00046063bdc7b72403b08

PhxPavilion

Jan 14, 2009, 4:38 AM

Well then, I feel like an asshole. Here I've been hitting these silver buttons over and over again and expecting them to change the walk signal. Please, PhxPavilion, tell me what these buttons are for if there are no walk buttons downtown.

Define for me what you consider to be downtown. I work in the core of it at 2nd St and Adams and I can tell you with certainty there are no buttons for any of the lights in the formerly copper square area, at least in proximity to the light rail.

Monorail would have been nice for a run from Camelback down to Jefferson via Central. Outside of that area, there are height restrictions that would have prevented monorail for being built. If you cannot expand the line, why build it?

Oh so now you think monorail would have been nice [along Central]; well we're in agreement there.

Where you have me confused is why you insist on saying things that have no bearing on reality or why you misconstrue my simple mention of disneyland as some sort of anti-urban rhetoric. There are many reasons why things can succeed or fail, Seattle's line doesn't seem to be that big of a failure to me, both when I went to Seattle a few years ago and looking at the history of the line on wikipedia. In fact there were plans to expand it throughout the city but that didn't happen due to financial issues.

The below shot doesn't look like a blighted area either, but that's just me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SeattleMonorailChokePoint.jpg

glynnjamin

Jan 14, 2009, 5:13 AM

Define for me what you consider to be downtown. I work in the core of it at 2nd St and Adams and I can tell you with certainty there are no buttons for any of the lights in the formerly copper square area, at least in proximity to the light rail.

Go outside, walk west two blocks to 1st Ave, up 3 blocks to the intersection just north of Central Station where the crossing is to get to the YMCA. Observe button. Observe LRT track in front of you. Then, stop acting like I'm defining downtown as something that it is not considering I live here.

Where you have me confused is why you insist on saying things that have no bearing on reality or why you misconstrue my simple mention of disneyland as some sort of anti-urban rhetoric. There are many reasons why things can succeed or fail, Seattle's line doesn't seem to be that big of a failure to me, both when I went to Seattle a few years ago and looking at the history of the line on wikipedia. In fact there were plans to expand it throughout the city but that didn't happen due to financial issues.

You're the one who keeps using Disneyland as an example of a working monorail and it's ignorant and obnoxious. It literally exists in a Fairy Land. Just because you can "see everything so clearly" from it there does not mean it works that way in the real world.

I, as someone who lived in Seattle for 5 years and didn't just visit every so often, can attest to the issues with the track. I also can tell you that the monorail expansion didn't fail because of financial issues, it failed because property owners didn't want to lose their values by having a giant monorail track block their view. Oh, and the photo you showed is of the Westgate Station...not of the area under the line that gets no benefit from it. Sure, the areas by the stations see a benefit. Considering it goes from a mall to the #1 tourist attraction in the city, those areas are going to be nice. Take a look at this spot http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=seattle&sll=33.455436,-112.075955&sspn=0.064162,0.11055&g=Phoenix,+AZ+85003&ie=UTF8&ll=47.614559,-122.340428&spn=0.000203,0.000864&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=47.614559,-122.340428&panoid=D_ctW6ijQ3N0DbTQJLDQOQ&cbp=12,219.07355680280745,,0,-13.822336686690658 and tell me how 40+years of monorail has inspired density and positive urban growth.

nickkoto

Jan 14, 2009, 8:10 AM

Does anyone else think the bike racks suck? I had some issues with getting a standard 26" tire to fit in one of them yesterday and ended up just keeping my bike on the floor. Luckily it was a fairly empty train.

I also took the train about 5:30ish today and observed 4 bicycles in one car (both racks full). Both of the bike passengers that got off before me had a little bit of a struggle getting the bike off the rack and out the door before it closed.

PhxPavilion

Jan 14, 2009, 9:22 AM

Go outside, walk west two blocks to 1st Ave, up 3 blocks to the intersection just north of Central Station where the crossing is to get to the YMCA. Observe button. Observe LRT track in front of you. Then, stop acting like I'm defining downtown as something that it is not considering I live here.

Ah, ok so one light on the north edge. Now walk up and down Jefferson, Washington, Monroe, Adams, even Van Buren from 3rd ave to 5th st and tell me how many buttons you find. My bet is you'll be able to count them on one hand.

You're the one who keeps using Disneyland as an example of a working monorail and it's ignorant and obnoxious. It literally exists in a Fairy Land. Just because you can "see everything so clearly" from it there does not mean it works that way in the real world.

The real world? What's the monorail there then, some imaginary fake? Please, you're grasping at straws. I never said it was a working example of an URBAN monorail, I used it to refute your claim that monorail as a whole has no views. It may not be as good as something on the ground, obviously, but thats not a realistic negative about the form of transportation.

I, as someone who lived in Seattle for 5 years and didn't just visit every so often, can attest to the issues with the track. I also can tell you that the monorail expansion didn't fail because of financial issues, it failed because property owners didn't want to lose their values by having a giant monorail track block their view.

I'll have to take your word for it because wikipedia says otherwise. Also, did you ever notice the timeline of the problems? For 33 years there were no reported accidents, the majority of them have been within the last few years and only one shortly after the line opened, doesn't that tell you something?

Anyway, I'm done arguing with you, this is obviously going nowhere.

HooverDam

Jan 14, 2009, 10:12 AM

Does anyone else think the bike racks suck? .

They're a bit tricky at first, but I've got a pretty good motion down now and can load/unload them pretty easily.

glynnjamin

Jan 14, 2009, 2:26 PM

Does anyone else think the bike racks suck? I had some issues with getting a standard 26" tire to fit in one of them yesterday and ended up just keeping my bike on the floor. Luckily it was a fairly empty train.

One hand on the handlebars, on hand on the seat.
Put the front tire in the rail. Then push forward with your back hand. The wheel will roll up the rail. Once it has reached the point with the hook, let go a bit and the wheel should drop down onto the hook. Then just set the bottom half of your bike against the rail.

Easy as pie.

Getting it off should, pretty much, be done in reverse order but it is not as easy.

Also, good luck if there are 5 people standing there.

glynnjamin

Jan 14, 2009, 2:33 PM

The real world? What's the monorail there then, some imaginary fake? Please, you're grasping at straws. I never said it was a working example of an URBAN monorail, I used it to refute your claim that monorail as a whole has no views. It may not be as good as something on the ground, obviously, but thats not a realistic negative about the form of transportation.

Ya, we should just rule out the ability to see stores when considering public transportation? That's not realistic? Since it is the stores that are going to suffer during construction and since the stores on the line will get no benefit with a monorail platform unless they are next to a station, I think that's a stupid idea. Light rail forces tens of thousands of people per day to ride by look at storefronts. They can see the name, the location, and what is inside. This is the kind of advertising that makes density happen around LRT tracks. Since monorail doesn't provide that, the only thing you get with the tracks is blight.

Sekkle

Jan 14, 2009, 6:29 PM

Ya, we should just rule out the ability to see stores when considering public transportation? That's not realistic? Since it is the stores that are going to suffer during construction and since the stores on the line will get no benefit with a monorail platform unless they are next to a station, I think that's a stupid idea. Light rail forces tens of thousands of people per day to ride by look at storefronts. They can see the name, the location, and what is inside. This is the kind of advertising that makes density happen around LRT tracks. Since monorail doesn't provide that, the only thing you get with the tracks is blight.

He didn't say we should "rule out the ability to see stores when considering public transportation." The point of building a monorail (or for that matter, an el or a subway) would be to avoid the problems associated with at-grade-running trains. That comes at a higher cost, but that's the trade-off. And that's why LRT was chosen for Phoenix instead of monorail/el/subway. It had nothing to do with the ability to see businesses along the line from the trains. "Forcing" tens of thousands of people per day to look at storefronts may be an ancillary benefit to an at-grade system, but it doesn’t "make density happen around LRT tracks." And I guarantee you it does not factor at all in a decision between light rail and monorail (or elevated rail or subway).

Development will happen within a half mile or quarter mile of stations because they will be major nodes of the transportation network. That development can be denser because it doesn't have to be built with the assumption that everyone has to have a car to get there. But dense development between stations with greater separation (say, in the area between 24th St. and 44th St. in Phoenix) won’t happen simply because people can see businesses from the train. It’s more about access to the businesses and residences along the line for people riding it than it is about visibility.

And the monorail expansion program in Seattle did fail for financial reasons, not because business owners didn't like the tracks. Here are links to several sources about that. Find me one that says it failed for the reason you gave.

Monorail financing plan killed
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/transportation/230910_monorail01.html?dpfrom=tstr

Costly monorail project is lost -- and is unlikely to survive
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/jamieson/233469_robert21.html

New monorail tab hits hard
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/transportation/229677_monorail23.html

Majority of City Council now troubled by monorail
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002350203_monorail28m.html

Pressure on monorail grows
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/transportation/230711_monorail30.html

Seattle Monorail Project to sell property, director says
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20051109&slug=webmonorail09

Seattle Monorail Project makes final debt payment
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20060906&slug=webmonorail06

No rebate from monorail project
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20061201&slug=webmonorail01

glynnjamin

Jan 14, 2009, 7:40 PM

Sekkle

Jan 14, 2009, 8:35 PM

^Nonsense...you are just looking at the end result, not the issues that lead up to it. To begin with, I-83. You can look at http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002003130_antimonorail12m.html to get an idea of how much money was being thrown about by the developers.

Then you can give the wiki a glimpse and see the multiple levels of opposition that this thing faced. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Line_(Seattle)

Then, you need to realize that the property owners were the ones driving up the costs 20-40% every year. That's what pushed this project out of reach. Property owners refused to sell or negotiate with the city to give up land. The city underestimated the amount of land they would need because they never planned for park-&-rides. The city bought very little property for the $125M they raised because the owners refused to cooperate. The longer the owners waited (because we are talking about the real estate boom), the more expensive their property got. If they could hold out until the city was forced to use eminent domain, they would make out like bandits. This caused the cost to balloon while fewer people were registering cars in King County.

It's not like one day someone said...hey, we knew how much this was going to cost and now we don't want to pay it...costs went up for a reason.

I-83 was overwhelmingly defeated. See the wikipedia article you linked for this…
In 2004, a citizen-initiated recall election sought to end the Seattle Monorail Project by denying the agency the right to use the air space above city streets (public rights-of-way). This recall initiative proved very unpopular with Seattle voters; it was overwhelmingly defeated.
All it says in the article you linked is that 91% of the funding support for I-83 came from one guy.

Your assertion seems to be that property owners held out for more money to kill the project because they didn’t want their views blocked by the monorail. But you haven’t provided any proof that this is the case. I don’t doubt that some business owners were opposed to the project. But the reason it failed was because voters turned down a request to pay more money for a shorter line. If that’s not failing because of financial issues, please explain to me why not, or why what I posted is “nonsense.” Real estate values increase. That doesn’t just happen in Seattle along a proposed monorail line. Construction costs also increase, and were going up like crazy around the time the monorail project was killed. The Seattle Monorail Project failed to accurately estimate the costs of the monorail.

Here’s another quote from the wikipedia article you linked…
The project fell under intense public scrutiny, as actual revenue from the motor vehicle excise tax that was to pay for the line fell as much as 30% under projected income, while projected costs rose by as much as 10%. To accommodate this, the SMP proposed a finance plan that included over $9 billion in interest to pay for the $2 billion construction. This would have required extending the tax out nearly 50 years, causing a small uproar in Seattle-area politics. Even local monorail boosters such as local alternative weekly The Stranger opposed the financing plan.

So tax revenue fell 30%, while costs rose 10%. And that somehow means that
1. It didn’t fail because of financial problems and
2. Property owners holding out (not necessarily for more money, but rather because they didn’t want views blocked by the elevated structure) killed the project.
????

So yes, costs went up for a reason. That and an underestimate of projected tax revenue were the financial problems I was referring to. But you haven’t shown any evidence to back up this statement…
the monorail expansion didn't fail because of financial issues, it failed because property owners didn't want to lose their values by having a giant monorail track block their view.

scottkag

Jan 14, 2009, 10:36 PM

I believe the perils of monorail systems have been well documented.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marge_vs._the_Monorail

Jsmscaleros

Jan 15, 2009, 7:36 AM

Rail junkies might find this interesting - The Arizona Rail Passenger Association has all your rail news and then some.

http://www.azrail.org/

I also found this wishful commuter rail map very interesting:
http://www.azrail.org/images/maps/commuter/phoenix.gif

Vicelord John

Jan 15, 2009, 3:39 PM

wow that is waaaaay too many stations. Ballpark AND Union Station?

PhxPavilion

Jan 16, 2009, 3:45 AM

I believe the perils of monorail systems have been well documented.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marge_vs._the_Monorail

You uncovered glynnjamin's source of info! :haha:

glynnjamin

Jan 16, 2009, 4:59 AM

^You know, I hate to say it, but that Simpsons episode is probably the most accurate depiction of how monorail works in the US...IT DOESN'T. Get the stick out of your ass and realize that it has too many problems that are insurmountable. Considering you can't manage to notice the dozen walk buttons that exist between Roosevelt and VB, I don't expect you to understand how or why it can't work. You'll just keep going on about Disneyland.

Since you're apparently "done" arguing then I guess I will just leave it at this...

Would we really rather have this
Source (http://images.nycsubway.org/i19000/img_19869.jpg)
http://images.nycsubway.org/i19000/img_19869.jpg

over this
Source (http://iusatv.imagingusa.org/images/2008/07/21/metro_downtown_phx1.jpg)
http://iusatv.imagingusa.org/images/2008/07/21/metro_downtown_phx1.jpg

Jsmscaleros

Jan 16, 2009, 7:41 AM

If money, labor, construction time, and overall ridiculousness were not factored in the scenario, I'd take the monorail!

PhxPavilion

Jan 16, 2009, 8:05 AM

^You know, I hate to say it, but that Simpsons episode is probably the most accurate depiction of how monorail works in the US...IT DOESN'T. Get the stick out of your ass and realize that it has too many problems that are insurmountable. Considering you can't manage to notice the dozen walk buttons that exist between Roosevelt and VB, I don't expect you to understand how or why it can't work. You'll just keep going on about Disneyland.

:haha:

I think we've already established your claims to these "problems" as being irrational and daft.

Roosevelt is much furthur north of Van Buren and is not the core of downtown, I said from Jefferson to Van Buren and 3 ave. to 5 st., which have the most frequent stops in the city as well as the most pedestrian traffic by far. Yes, lights north of that have buttons. Need I explain why?

glynnjamin

Jan 16, 2009, 2:43 PM

:haha:

I think we've already established your claims to these "problems" as being irrational and daft.

Roosevelt is much furthur north of Van Buren and is not the core of downtown, I said from Jefferson to Van Buren and 3 ave. to 5 st., which have the most frequent stops in the city as well as the most pedestrian traffic by far. Yes, lights north of that have buttons. Need I explain why?

Well, since the City of Phoenix has defined downtown (former Copper Square) as including Roosevelt...and between Roosevelt and Van Buren you have the only downtown mall, the only downtown campus, the downtown art walk, and pretty much the only downtown residents (since Monroe and Orpheum are pretty empty), then I think I'd argue that the CORE of downtown is from I-10 to Jackson, 7 to 7. Most people would agree with that or include areas of 12th St or McDowell. The "core" is dead after 5pm by your definition. Considering that both arenas are south of Jefferson, they wouldn't even be included in your definition.

Oh, and clearly my claims of these "problems" are daft...that's why every major metropolitan city in AMERICA agrees with me. Why don't you advocate chairlift-style SkyRides too? At least the stations would be smaller, the infrastructure would be cheaper, and you could move people quicker. It has all of the same benefits as monorail...the one benefit being "it doesn't get stuck in traffic".

Strange Meat

Jan 16, 2009, 2:53 PM

Aspen and some other cities here have gondolas. They're pretty neat. :)

bwonger06

Jan 16, 2009, 4:45 PM

Aspen and some other cities here have gondolas. They're pretty neat. :)

There can only be one solution to all of this... more rickshaws! You hardly see them downtown and more would be better :banana:

Strange Meat

Jan 16, 2009, 4:46 PM

We have a TON of pedicabs in our downtown. They're nuts, too, cause you'll see them out in all kinds of weather.

PHX31

Jan 16, 2009, 7:15 PM

pedi-cabs are always downtown, but typically more often in the afternoon and evening.

The rickety ones with the ghettoblasters are the best.

Vicelord John

Jan 16, 2009, 8:27 PM

pedi-cabs = the loss.

mother fuckers are always cutting through my complex and I've almost taken a couple out because I still can't safely/properly drive my truck.

electricron

Jan 16, 2009, 11:06 PM

Well, since the City of Phoenix has defined downtown (former Copper Square) as including Roosevelt...and between Roosevelt and Van Buren you have the only downtown mall, the only downtown campus, the downtown art walk, and pretty much the only downtown residents (since Monroe and Orpheum are pretty empty), then I think I'd argue that the CORE of downtown is from I-10 to Jackson, 7 to 7. Most people would agree with that or include areas of 12th St or McDowell. The "core" is dead after 5pm by your definition. Considering that both arenas are south of Jefferson, they wouldn't even be included in your definition.

Oh, and clearly my claims of these "problems" are daft...that's why every major metropolitan city in AMERICA agrees with me. Why don't you advocate chairlift-style SkyRides too? At least the stations would be smaller, the infrastructure would be cheaper, and you could move people quicker. It has all of the same benefits as monorail...the one benefit being "it doesn't get stuck in traffic".

Disneyland and Monorails work because both the buildings and the monorail were built at the same time! The above ground monorail stations were built within the buildings lobbies or atriums. No city in the USA has downtown buildings with monorail stations prebuilt in their lobbys, so these stations end up being large ugly aerial structures.

Just look at Las Vegas monorail stations....
Sahara's Station:
http://www.library.unlv.edu/arch/archdb/images/saharamonorailPICT1850.jpg

Bally's/Paris Station
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2402/2223463679_660632200e.jpg

Harrah's Station
http://www.mpimages.net/other/compressed/lasvegas/HarrahsStation040710A-buiter.jpg

They're huge. Can you visualize one of these stations over Main Street or by City Hall?

Then compare what you see at Disneyland.
http://www.zimfamilycockers.com/GrandCalifornian-Monorail.jpg

The monorail station appears a whole lot more beautiful when hidden within a building!

Then compare those photos with a light rail station.
Phoenix:
http://arizonabestchandler.com/posts/light_rail_phoenix.jpg

Or a light rail station hidden within a building.
Dallas Convention Center
http://dallassouthblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/dallasconv.jpg

Sonoran_Dweller

Jan 16, 2009, 11:21 PM

On Sunday before 10 AM METRO Light Rail won't be running north of McDowell due to the RNR Arizona Marathon:

PHOENIX—Many bus routes in Phoenix, Scottsdale and Tempe and light rail service in Phoenix will be affected when the P.F. Chang’s Rock ‘n’ Roll Arizona Marathon rolls into town on Sunday, Jan. 18.

The marathon begins at 15th Avenue and Washington Street in downtown Phoenix. The State Capitol area will be shut down at 4 a.m.with the majority of the event road closures occurring between 6:30 a.m. and 4 p.m.

Over 30,000 runners are expected to run the race through the streets of Phoenix, Scottsdale and Tempe. The race routes will be lined with live bands, about 5,000 volunteers and spectators.

The event significantly impacts the area east of 7th Avenue and south of Camelback Road. Riders are strongly advised to consult the Rider Alerts section on the home page or call customer service at 602-253-5000 for route detour updates, and give themselves extra time to reach their destinations.

Bus service in Phoenix, Scottsdale and Tempe will be disrupted from the start of the race until the following times:

Phoenix—approximately 1 p.m.
Scottsdale—approximately 3 p.m.
Tempe—approximately 4 p.m.
List of Bus Routes affected on Sunday, Jan. 18

Routes 0, 1, 3, 7, 8, 10, 12, 13, 15, 16, 17, 19, 29, 32, 39, 41, 44, 50, 56, 60, 66, 70, 72, 81, Orbit Earth

METRO light rail service will also be affected by Sunday’s event.
In accommodation of the P.F. Chang’s Rock ‘N’ Roll Arizona Marathon and ½ Marathon on Jan. 18, METRO light rail will limit morning service at those stations north of McDowell Rd. The following stations will be without light rail service until approximately 10 a.m., or until the race has cleared:

· Montebello/19th Avenue
· 19th Avenue/Camelback Road
· 7th Avenue/Camelback Road
· Central Avenue/Camelback
· Campbell/Central Avenue
· Osborn/Central Avenue
· Thomas/Central Avenue
· Encanto/Central Avenue

METRO will service the rest of the line – from McDowell/Central Avenue to Main/Sycamore – with regular service hours and additional trains and frequencies to support event patrons. METRO will offer 10-minute service before and during the race when traditional weekend frequency is every 15 minutes.

.service is limited to stations SOUTH of McDowell road Regular service hours and additional trains to support event patrons will be provided to the rest of the line from Central Station to Main/Sycamore. The entire line will become operational with the clearing of the marathon.

For more information, visit the Rider Alerts section on the home page or call customer service at 602-253-5000 for updated information on route detours.

Valley Metro/RPTA is an organization of 15 local governments that provides or funds transit services to citizens in the greater Phoenix metropolitan and surrounding areas. For more information about Valley Metro public transit services, call Transit Information at (602) 253-5000; for callers with TTY (602) 261-8208; or visit the Valley Metro website at www.ValleyMetro.org.

HX_Guy

Jan 16, 2009, 11:27 PM

Thanks for the info. I have a friend that's running the marathon and I'm going to be at the finish line when he crosses and I'm planning on taking the light rail because last year it was a freaking mess down there...parking probably a good mile away from the finish line and it took what felt like an hour to finally get out of the area with the car.

Now I gotta find out what the nearest light rail station to the finish line is.

Sonoran_Dweller

Jan 16, 2009, 11:38 PM

If it is at the same spot as it has bee the last few years then the closest stops are the TTC or University/Rural.

HX_Guy

Jan 16, 2009, 11:42 PM

Looks like University/Rural is .5 miles away...5th/College is .6 miles away, either one should do. Hopefully it won't be crazy busy where we'll have to wait for a few trains...that would defeat the purpose.

PhxPavilion

Jan 16, 2009, 11:49 PM

HooverDam

Jan 18, 2009, 1:06 AM

Here's an unfortunate story that will feed the anti light rail trolls:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/traffic/lightrail/articles/2009/01/17/20090117lightrailassault-ON.html

Man assaulted at Phoenix light-rail station
by Beth Duckett - Jan. 17, 2009 09:19 AM
The Arizona Republic
A man was reportedly assaulted at a Metro light-rail station Friday night and later taken to the hospital, a fire official said.

The victim, in his early 50s, was either inside a light rail car or at the station near 44th and Washington streets when the assault occurred, said Capt. Shelley Jamison, a Phoenix Fire Department spokeswoman.

Police secured the scene around 9:15 p.m. The victim, who was not named, was taken to Maricopa Medical Center with non-life threatening injuries.

glynnjamin

Jan 18, 2009, 1:15 AM

Quite arguing semantics. The area I mentioned has the most foot traffic and the most traffic lights in a given area, which just so happens to also be the area that the train has to make the most stops. Imagine that. Only one day a month does Roosevelt see any significant traffic.

That is such bullshit. You act like 3000 people don't move through Fillmore day in and day out during the school year. Just because you don't go up here, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The only foot traffic downtown sees is between 11 and 1 except for when there is a game which, we've established, do not occur in your parameters of the CORE of downtown. For the most part, everyone parks in the damn building they work in - that's the biggest problem with downtown anyways!

Vicelord John

Jan 18, 2009, 1:15 AM

Ever since then, I've been calling it the "fight rail"

lol

McDowell to Montebello will be closed on Sunday until 10AM.

Vicelord John

Jan 18, 2009, 1:16 AM

fillmore is the ghetto

glynnjamin

Jan 18, 2009, 4:16 AM

fillmore is the ghetto

Ya it is...all those OGs rollin on their chairs. They are the original 'Crips. Fillmo Fo Sho!

Vicelord John

Jan 18, 2009, 5:03 AM

Haha favorite south park episode ever. Were you born a crip or did you become one. Side note. My girl and her friend and i sat out on the corner of first and fillmore one night just downing milwaukee's best and making friends with all the asu students and crips that came by. It happened randomly, but it made for a fun night.

exit2lef

Jan 18, 2009, 5:37 AM

Here's an unfortunate story that will feed the anti light rail trolls:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/traffic/lightrail/articles/2009/01/17/20090117lightrailassault-ON.html

I can't find any detail at all on this. Was it a robbery, a fight among passengers, or something else entirely? Yes, it will feed the rail haters, and the absence of detail will probably drive people toward the worst possible conclusions. Fortunately, AZ Central isn't allowing the usual comments on the article.

HooverDam

Jan 18, 2009, 6:32 AM

I can't find any detail at all on this. Was it a robbery, a fight among passengers, or something else entirely? Yes, it will feed the rail haters, and the absence of detail will probably drive people toward the worst possible conclusions. Fortunately, AZ Central isn't allowing the usual comments on the article.

Ive noticed they generally don't allow any comments on stories revolving around deaths or injuries, which is good. I wish they'd turn on the comments off all together, I'm not sure what good they do.

PHX31

Jan 18, 2009, 3:38 PM

The shitty thing about azcentral/rep is that they don't do any investigative reporting. Find out what type of assult or crime it was and report it. Or, if for some reason the police won't allow it to be reported, tell us. They suck.

exit2lef

Jan 20, 2009, 5:53 PM

I noticed regular armed Phoenix PD officers on the train this morning -- not just the unarmed police assistants who normally provide security on light rail.

Could this be related to the still mysterious 44th St. / Washington incident, or is the nation on heightened alert due to the inauguration?

Vicelord John

Jan 20, 2009, 6:10 PM

they have had uniformed officers for a while. A couple of them asked to see my ticket, I gave them a holier than thou response as I pulled my ticket out of my pocket, then looked at their G22 .45 on their hips and shut the fuck up.

mgmAZCO

Jan 20, 2009, 7:48 PM

Was in town and rode the light rail this weekend. Was nice to see the system up and running, and I experienced crowded trains each time I rode. :)

Only gripe is the time it took to get downtown...which I know others have mentioned so not trying to be negative. Took 45 minutes to get from McClintock/Apache to the Convention Center. We hit way too many lights, especially through Tempe. I hope that the timing can be improved, but I know it's easier said than done. It just really makes it hard to gague how long your trip will be. My friend has jury duty in a few weeks and she was planning on taking the rail, but now she's reconsidering. She doesn't know how long it will take since the estimates are unreliable.

Needless to say, if future extensions are built, I hope they consider overpasses/underpasses for some of the major intersections. It's costly I know, but it makes for a more efficient and reliable system. The West Corridor in Denver/Lakewood is currently being built and they are building overpasses for several major streets. Overall I'm extremely glad Phx finally has light rail, and I'm sure the kinks will be worked out in the months to come.

exit2lef

Jan 20, 2009, 8:43 PM

My friend has jury duty in a few weeks and she was planning on taking the rail, but now she's reconsidering. She doesn't know how long it will take since the estimates are unreliable.

The train may not run as fast as we all want it to, but I've found no more variability in its timing than I have with unpredictable freeway traffic. I'd tell your friend to still take the train but to add a cushion to her timing -- just as I'd do with any mode of transport. Better to arrive 20 minutes early and get a coffee somewhere than arrive 20 minutes late.

nickkoto

Jan 21, 2009, 12:28 AM

Continuing on something mentioned in the OCPE thread, despite the fact that several Metro platform staff have told me otherwise in the last few weeks, it appears they started a campaign today to get pass holders to swipe their cards. I saw signboards up at several stations.

And I still boarded one train without swiping, because I would've had to wait for the next one if I had walked the extra 30 feet. I feel like such a rebel. Maybe tonight I'll cut the tags off of my pillows.

PhxPavilion

Jan 21, 2009, 9:25 AM

I still haven't rode the damn thing, maybe this weekend.

glynnjamin

Jan 21, 2009, 2:30 PM

I still haven't rode the damn thing, maybe this weekend.

Are you just going to boycott until Lyle Landly comes and builds the monorail? Then you can take it to Space Mountain!

HX_Guy

Jan 21, 2009, 3:31 PM

.Shuttle from rail depot to airport proves popular

17 comments by Glen Creno - Jan. 21, 2009 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

The shuttle from Metro light rail to Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport apparently is catching on with travelers and people who work in and around the airport.

The airport initially expected that a daily average of 600 to 700 people would use the new transit connection from the train stop at 44th and Washington streets in Phoenix. But with Metro service not even a month old, Sky Harbor says the average is 850 people a day.

"It shows that there is a need there and even more people are using it than we thought would," Sky Harbor spokeswoman Deborah Ostreicher said.

Metro decided not to run tracks directly to the airport for a couple of reasons. Planners said the airport stretch would have had to be set up as a subway to avoid traffic conflicts. That would have been expensive: roughly the same as the $1.4 billion spent on the entire 20-mile Metro line that connects Phoenix, Tempe and Mesa. Planners also said passengers would be aggravated by extra stops at the airport.

Instead, passengers can pick up a free airport-shuttle bus on the southern side of Washington. The buses have wide doors and racks for luggage.

Four buses serve the rail stop and the airport's three terminals. Buses are scheduled to run every 10 minutes when Metro is operating.

Alex Wihak of Calgary, Alberta, said he had no problem finding the shuttle pickup at the airport Tuesday morning. He said he was in town for business and staying with family in the East Valley. They planned to pick him up at the Mesa end of the Metro line.

"I didn't have to ask questions," he said. "It was a quick ride here. It's quite simple."

An automated people mover eventually will connect the airport and the rail station. It's scheduled to open in 2013, with service to Terminal 4, which handles 75 percent of the airport's passengers. It is expected to be finished to the other terminals and the car-rental center by 2020.

Ostreicher said there wasn't a breakdown of how many employees were taking the train and the shuttle to work compared to travelers headed to planes.

PhxPavilion

Jan 22, 2009, 11:52 AM

Are you just going to boycott until Lyle Landly comes and builds the monorail? Then you can take it to Space Mountain!

Yeah, maybe they'll erect a talking statue of you foaming at the mouth and telling people to go fuck themselves if they ride the monorail.

glynnjamin

Jan 22, 2009, 2:28 PM

Yeah, maybe they'll erect a talking statue of you foaming at the mouth and telling people to go fuck themselves if they ride the monorail.

You're the one throwing the fit over the thing we already have.

I'm just objecting to a pie-in-the-sky vision that will never work. At least I'm rational. By the way, I would gladly take a statue....can I have it in John Park?

PHX31

Jan 22, 2009, 3:42 PM

Has anyone ever seen a 3-car train? I've ridden the light rail quite a few times, and driving to work I see the train nearly every day, multiple times a day, but I still have never seen a 3-car train. I know people said they saw some during the opening weekend, but even then I didn't.

pbenjamin

Jan 22, 2009, 4:30 PM

There were many 3 car trains on the opening weekend, but I have not seen any since. Has anyone been involved in, or seen, the trains picking people up after Suns' games? That would be a likely application.

Vicelord John

Jan 22, 2009, 4:57 PM

no 3 car trains at suns.

HX_Guy

Jan 22, 2009, 7:23 PM

I guess here is what leading to at least some of the time problems...

Train drivers learning too

Maybe you've noticed light rail trains sometimes arrive in bunches. They're not supposed to.

Valley Metro engineered traffic lights to give the trains an advantage at traffic lights. The idea was to keep the trains running predictably, so Metro can live up to its promise of a train every 10 minutes during weekdays and every 20 minutes during off-peak times.

Metro boss Rick Simonetta says the system is stilll trying to work out the kinks. Why? Train operators come from the ranks of bus drivers and they drive like, well, bus drivers. Simonetta says some are more aggressive about timing the lights at intersections and some are more cautious.

Also, according to one announcement on a train yesterday, train operators are supposed to only stay at each platform 15 seconds. Some drivers are more forgiving than others about letting people run to the train.

It's not just a learning curve for the passengers. Simonetta says some extra training is probably in order.

Downtown_resident

Jan 22, 2009, 7:36 PM

I guess here is what leading to at least some of the time problems...

So does that mean that the trains don't have any way to trip the streetlights to cause them to turn green?

I had heard there was supposed to be such a feature, but that thus far it had malfunctioned.

http://downtownphoenix.blogspot.com

glynnjamin

Jan 22, 2009, 7:43 PM

I interpret "engineered traffic lights to give the trains an advantage" as meaning there is some technological device that changes the lights. Otherwise, I'm not sure how much "engineering" would be required. Clearly there is some sensor in the track because of the glowing yellow train signs. Those signs should force the light to change within 10-20 seconds (IMHO). It seems like a simple relay switch. When the train light comes on, signal a yellow on cross traffic within 5-10 seconds, then turn the traffic switch over. This is why I think that pedestrians screw the system up; because you need 20 seconds to get across larger streets and if the train comes right at the beginning of that time, the train is just going to have to wait. You can't ditch people in the middle of the street.

PHX31

Jan 22, 2009, 8:01 PM

I thought I explained it fairly well a couple pages ago... maybe not.

exit2lef

Jan 22, 2009, 8:47 PM

I guess here is what leading to at least some of the time problems...

What's the source of the material you quoted? I'd like to read the original article if possible.

HX_Guy

Jan 22, 2009, 8:50 PM

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/lightrailblog/44289

exit2lef

Jan 22, 2009, 10:38 PM

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/lightrailblog/44289

Thanks. I hadn't seen that one yet.

AZ KID

Jan 24, 2009, 8:49 PM

A snippet from The Arizona Republic:

The shuttle from Metro light rail to Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport apparently is catching on with travelers and people who work in and around the airport.

The airport initially expected that a daily average of 600 to 700 people would use the new transit connection from the train stop at 44th and Washington streets in Phoenix. But with Metro service not even a month old, Sky Harbor says the average is 850 people a day.

"It shows that there is a need there and even more people are using it than we thought would," Sky Harbor spokeswoman Deborah Ostreicher said.

Sonoran_Dweller

Jan 25, 2009, 12:29 AM

HX_Guy

Jan 25, 2009, 1:24 AM

Same here, I saw a lot of trains today (though now that I think about it, I saw probably 5-6 trains going toward Mesa and only 1 doing toward Montebello)...but all the trains I saw looked packed, most had people also standing on them and each station from Central Station to Central/Camelback had between 10-20 people on them.

Downtown was pretty fully of people for a Saturday as well, it was nice to see.

Jasonhouse

Jan 25, 2009, 1:38 AM

The next time I have to come into this thread to clean it up, because a handful of forumers can't act like decent human beings, the offending parties will be suspended.

Enough is enough people.

NIXPHX77

Jan 25, 2009, 8:43 AM

I saw quite few trains today and they all were packed with standing room only. I think that twenty minute intervals doesn't work for Saturdays. I think Sundays should have a 20 minute headway, weekdays should be 10 minutes, and Saturdays should be 15 minutes.
Isn't the schedule for weekends and holidays 15 minute intervals from about 6 am to 7 pm and then 20 minute intervals at all other times of those days?

exit2lef

Jan 25, 2009, 5:29 PM

I'm wrapping up a business trip to Denver right now and have observed that city's light rail through new eyes now that I'm riding light rail regularly in Phoenix.

First, I see a lot of three-car trains even when they're clearly not necessary due to passenger loads. At 7 AM on a Sunday, the rail is not crowded, but I've still seen a lot of long trains pass by. If we see more three-car trains in Phoenix, I hope it's only as needed due to high passenger loads during peak hours.

Second, I've noticed that there are three steps up to get into the Denver light rail cars. It's makes me really appreciate the Phoenix design with all doors flush with the station platforms, making if much easier to board and disembark.

I'm still very appreciative of Denver's network of multiple light rail lines and its being a role model for Phoenix in showing how an autocentric city in the West can implement rail transit. Nevertheless, I'm beginning to see how many things Phoenix has gotten right in its better-late-than-never light rail system.

exit2lef

Jan 25, 2009, 5:40 PM

There's an article on AZ Central today about the lack of restrooms at light rail stations:

http://tinyurl.com/c32ljv

Frankly, I find the tone of the complaints very whiny. Most light rail systems do not have restrooms due to their minimal station infrastructure.

It sounds to me like most of the complainers fall into the "joyrider" category -- people riding from one end to another just for kicks and without a real destination. Anyone actually going to work, school, shopping, dining, etc. would probably have access to a restroom at his or her destination.

Articles like this one definitely remind me that no good deed goes unpunished.

nickkoto

Jan 25, 2009, 10:02 PM

:previous:
What a bunch of petty whiners. How many bus stops have public restrooms?

Strange Meat

Jan 26, 2009, 2:53 AM

:previous:
What a bunch of petty whiners. How many bus stops have public restrooms?

I can't think of any station, be it light rail, subway, bus, etc, that had restrooms, outside of large regional stations (i.e, Penn Station) that are more like airports than "stops".

pbenjamin

Jan 26, 2009, 5:10 AM

Isn't the schedule for weekends and holidays 15 minute intervals from about 6 am to 7 pm and then 20 minute intervals at all other times of those days?

Yes.

Hours of Service

Weekdays
Hours. Trains begin the first full trip of the day at 4:35 a.m. at the Sycamore/Main station and at 4:40 a.m. at the Montebello/19th Ave station. The last full trips of the day begins at 11 p.m., arriving at the opposite end of the line at midnight. Get a PDF of our detailed service schedule. Please note that arrival times are estimates and the schedule is subject to change.
Frequency. Trains arrive every 10 minutes from 6 a.m. to 7 p.m.; all other hours, every 20 minutes.

Weekends and holidays
Trains begin the first full trip of the day at 5 a.m. at the end-of-the-line stations. The last full trip of the day begins at 11 p.m., arriving at the opposite end of the line at midnight. Frequency. Trains arrive every 15 minutes between 6 a.m. and 7 p.m.; all other hours, every 20 minutes.

scottkag

Jan 26, 2009, 5:59 AM

I rode the train from Roosevelt to Priest and back this afternoon (Sunday), and it was standing room only both times. I had my bike with me and it was quite a hassle getting it on and off the racks because of the crowds - I'm not really complaining, but if this keeps up we need more frequent weekend service, or at least 3 car trains.

Quite a few people to and from the airport, and people heading downtown for evening events. But the big crowds were hitting the swap meet at the dog track by Gateway College. So much for the AZCentral Neanderthals' predictions that trains would be empty!

nickkoto

Jan 26, 2009, 8:45 AM

:previous:
Those bike racks are completely useless. When the train is full of people, you can't access them. When the train is kind of empty, it's easier just to keep it on the floor and hold it. When the rack already has one bike hanging from it, especially a $1200 Cannondale that you don't want to ding up, it's an even bigger fight to get your own bike in the rack.

And of course, when you reach your destination and it comes time to remove your bike, Murphy's Law says the doors will actually open and close within the 12 seconds. It's not easy trying to remove a 25lb bike while the train is still moving, especially if you have a backpack full of books.

PhxPavilion

Jan 26, 2009, 10:40 AM

Strange Meat

Jan 26, 2009, 5:37 PM

How do they do the bike racks? Here in Denver, at the stations, "door" is painted on the ground where the train is supposed to line up, and, every few spots is a picture of a bike. People with bikes load at either end of a car and, basically, you just hold your bike and stand.

PHX31

Jan 26, 2009, 5:41 PM

/\ There is nothing painted on the ground at the platforms, but there are bike decals on the trains themselves next to the doors that a person with a bike should enter. There are racks/hooks in the trains in those locations where a person can vertically hang their bike to get it out of the way. If the racks are taken and there is enough room, people can stand and hold their bikes as well.

andrewkfromaz

Jan 26, 2009, 5:42 PM

The train doesn't line up at a certain point on the platform here, for one thing. Secondly, the bike racks are at the center of each car, and there are vertical hooks to hang your bike from. Bad idea, by the way. For most people and probably most bikes, it's really hard to try and lift one end of your bike up to the ceiling of the car and hang a wheel over the hook, especially on a crowded train. Then you have to essentially repeat the process to get it off. I've seen people just holding their bikes most of the time. The process of getting your bike on the train is simplified by the flat load floor - just roll the bike over the small gap onto the train. No problems there.

nickkoto

Jan 26, 2009, 6:04 PM

andrewkfromaz

Jan 26, 2009, 6:06 PM

Yeah, especially if/when ridership increases (or fails to decrease). There's no reason to have so many seats on the train if the bulk of the riders are standing anyway. The only problem would be getting those passengers on and off the train.

glynnjamin

Jan 26, 2009, 6:22 PM

My wife and I were trying to think of restrooms that are assessable at each stop...just to shut these people up.

Montebello - Target, inside the mall, Carls Jr, Bowling Alley, Taco Bell, WalMart
19th Ave - Fry's @ 15th
7th Ave - Fry's, Subway
Central/Cmlbk - AJ's, Boston Market
Campbell - Phoenix Union District Office
Indian School - AM/PM, Clarendon
Osborn - Walgreens, Staples
Thomas - Isn't there a hotel right across from there?
Encanto - Museum has one
McDowell - Library
Roosevelt - Best Western, the park
Central Station - one at Cent. station, Sheraton, AZ Center
Wash/Jeff/1st/Cent - Wyndham Hotel, any of the court buildings
Stadiums/Convention Center - Convention Center, Hyatt
12 St - ?
24 St - Carl's Jr, Chevron
38th St - Swap Meet, college
Airport - hotel, the airport
Priest - something in that strip mall?
Center - ?
Mill - there has to be somewhere on Mill
Vet - doesn't the college have bathrooms?
University - complex on Univ. & Rural, CVS
Dorsey - Bertos?
McClintock - Shell Station
Smith/Martin - post office
Price - ?
Sycamore - Safeway

glynnjamin

Jan 26, 2009, 6:26 PM

They should just rip the seats and racks completely out of the center section of each car if they want to accomodate bicyclists. There are currently 8 seats in those center sections, plus 4 bike racks, and those who enter the section without a bicycle are just begging for a tire tread to be imprinted on their face with the current setup.

That was my suggestion EXACTLY to Simmonetta last time I ran into him. He said that's the way the manufacturer makes them & then I told him that Seattle's trains are supposed to be different but are made by the same supplier. He "didn't know anything about that." Way to go Vice-Mayor.

The middle section should just be standing room only. You could fit way more people in the area of a seat if they were standing. Besides, who wants to sit and have someone's crotch, ass in their face?...other than John, that is.